Etheric projections are the same as NDE's

[todd421757]

I personally know of someone who had a NDE last Wednesday. Her description of the NDE was exactly the same as my etheric projection experiences. She knew nothing of OBE's before her NDE.

She felt vibrations and felt her etheric body slip out and start to float next to the hospital bed. At this point she could not hear sounds anymore, except for a underwater type echo. She also could not see anything. But she was very consciously aware of her state the entire time. She continued to use her etheric sense motion to move around the room.

The doctors used the paddles to jump start her heart. She then felt herself get reeled back into her body.

She felt energy from the experience, and she is fine now.

Her pulse and breathing were both confirmed to be absent during the NDE. The doctor told her she was clinically dead.

But the doctor told her she was not out of the body and she was hallucinating. She wasn't hallucinating since she could not see anything during the projection. Hallucinations involve the visual sense.

This experience proves to me etheric projections are real and are the same experience as the death projection.

[Killa Rican]

Very nice comparison with some great in-depth perspective. Thank you for sharing.

[catmeow]

Shame she couldn't actually see during her NDE. This would have made the experience more veridical, because almost invariably, NDErs accurately perceive what is happening, and this pinpoints the actual time of the experience to the time when there was no pulse, and therefore consciousness would be medically impossible.

It's tiresome that doctors keep telling cardiac arrest survivors that they were hallucinating.  Don't they get bored with this? Typically 1 in 6 cardiac arrest survivors describe these "hallucinations".

[ange.connell]

The father of a friend of mine had a NDE some 20 years ago. He was having an operation and felt his body separate out. He could see himself on the operating table with the lights above his body and all the surgeons working on him. He 'died' too but was brought back and he felt his body being pulled back.

My question is "is a NDE the same as an OBE"? Whats the difference?

[Xanth]

My question is "is a NDE the same as an OBE"? Whats the difference?

I don't believe they are any different.
But then, I see all of these experiences as being explicitly connected.

[ange.connell]

Hi Zanth

Yes I agree, but, would you not have control during an OBE? What I mean is that if you didn't know all about OBE AP, etc (like my friends Dad) would you not wonder WTF is happening to me? Whats going on? etc Whereas if you did know all about astral experiences and you had a OBE during an operation you'd know what was happening and be able to control your OBE. Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble.

[Xanth]

Hi Zanth

Yes I agree, but, would you not have control during an OBE? What I mean is that if you didn't know all about OBE AP, etc (like my friends Dad) would you not wonder WTF is happening to me? Whats going on? etc Whereas if you did know all about astral experiences and you had a OBE during an operation you'd know what was happening and be able to control your OBE. Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble.

Nono, it's all good. 

What you're talking about is simply "perception".

You're comparing two individuals having a NDE.  One person who knows about the existence of "projections", and the other person who doesn't know about the existence of "projections".

Now, put yourself into the mindset and shoes of both of these people while they're having a Near Death Experience.

How would you perceive a NDE if you knew about projections and you had them relatively regularly?
How would you perceive a NDE if you didn't know about projections nor had the relatively regularly?

It's all perception and experience.

[Volgerle]

My question is "is a NDE the same as an OBE"? Whats the difference?

The most obvious difference is of course, that an NDE occurs 'near death' or even "after" clinical death, which means in case of life threatening emergencies. An OBE is sth induced or happening 'accidentally' during sleep. Hence you have a completely different precondition, so to speak.

An NDE usually and almost always contains an OBE as essential part of it, that's why events that happen in 'real-time' on location can be witnessed. The vast literature on NDEs tells us that the NDE also contains e.g. vibrations or roaring sound from a common OBE, you experience yourself as body or just point of light, so many things are similar or the same.

However, most also report on other 'astral' and even 'mystic' experiences, e.g. going to the light through a tunnel, a barrier that could not be crossed unless one would not want to turn back, happiness and blissful state (I had that one!), angels or guides or deceased relatives or friends meeting and guiding you, etc.
Therefore I would not say, like todd, that it is only an etheric projection, but it might be that for the OBE part, although it does not explain to me the bliss-states one sometimes experiences as I think that this is not possible in the etheric (neither astral) body.

So the NDE is a typical 'pattern' with more than one event or element taking place (R. Moody was the first to come up with a list on this, but there are more versions now), but not every event must happen of course. Sometimes rarer events also happen, e.g. such as a past life regression or even visions of a future event (or life!). Some NDEs also get entirely mystic such as gaining knowledge about the universe, God, the secret of life, the world's best recipe for chocolate pudding, your personal life purpose here, Earth 'real' history, aliens, etc pp.

[catmeow]

Couldn't have said it better myself Volgerle

NDEs and OBEs are essentially the same, during the RTZ phase but there are a few differences even during this phase.

Firstly, I can say categorically, that NDEs tend to be a LOT less subject to "reality fluctuations" than OBEs  In other words, when experiencers report seeing their physical body below them and the clinical staff working frantically around them, they are almost always extremely accurate in their descriptions. In other words they report physical details very accurately, right down to the tools the surgeon is using and the colour of his shoes.

Secondly, during an NDE, the experiencer is relatively free to explore and move around, perhaps visiting other rooms in the hospital or flying onto the roof. But there comes a time when they may see "the light" and this has a more or less irresistable pull. So once this happens they are no longer in control.

As Volgerle said, once they move towards the light there is a whole plethora of new experiences to be had which differ from a typical OBE.

[Killa Rican]

The First time I had an OBE, I was "Shot out" in the same manner you described  the NDE with all the vibrations and stuff. Couldnt see a damn thing, but I can hear everything around me. Every OBE after that I can start to visually perceive.

She never had an OBE/AP in her life let alone even known about it. So I think that 'NDE' could of sparked the beginning. If she ever has a NDE/OBE again, she should be able to see then.

[Xanth]

Firstly, I can say categorically, that NDEs tend to be a LOT less subject to "reality fluctuations" than OBEs  In other words, when experiencers report seeing their physical body below them and the clinical staff working frantically around them, they are almost always extremely accurate in their descriptions. In other words they report physical details very accurately, right down to the tools the surgeon is using and the colour of his shoes.

It certainly seems to be the case that "reality fluctuations" are much less in NDE's than OBE's, but one has to really wonder how much people are REALLY noticing about their surroundings when they think they're in the middle of dying. 

I know we get the usual reports that people heard other people talking and the contents of those discussions are told by the individual who had the NDE or in the case above you report of the people reporting the tools the surgeon are using... these could almost be accounted by generalities.  It's hard to get as detailed with our reality fluctuations as we can with a normal projection (obe or otherwise) due to the emotional circumstances involved with NDEs.

But yes... it does *seem* like reality fluctuations are reduced in NDEs, we just need to figure out and account for why.

[Lionheart]

But yes... it does *seem* like reality fluctuations are reduced in NDEs, we just need to figure out and account for why.

I would say it's because when they have died, that's all that's there. If you didn't have a body or another physical reality to come back to, what do you think your focus would be? It would be 100% shifted to your new reality. That makes perfect sense. When we are Phasing or having OBE's, we have something to come back to, that link is enough to cause reality fluctuations alone.

[Szaxx]

Hi,
Sounds good to me too. If we were to get out into the RTZ with absolutely no emotional attachments then the scene should be an exact copy of the real physical one.
On the last two occasions I've not seen anything attached to the scene although not 100% familiar with the location sometimes odd extras seem to shimmer.
Somewhat inconclusive as usual with perception in this science.

[Xanth]

I would say it's because when they have died, that's all that's there. If you didn't have a body or another physical reality to come back to, what do you think your focus would be? It would be 100% shifted to your new reality. That makes perfect sense. When we are Phasing or having OBE's, we have something to come back to, that link is enough to cause reality fluctuations alone.

Yes, in regards to exactly what you posted, you're right. 

But we're not talking about people who have actually "died".  We're talking about people who are supposedly "near death".
We don't even know what "near death" means in most of these cases.  We don't even know what point a person officially ceases to be alive. 

All this talk about Near Death Experiences is kinda superfluous since we don't actually have any way to measure such an event.

What I can surmise from my own projections is that these people simply, yet accidentally focused away from their physical bodies for a period of time.  NDE's have more in common with OBE's than they do with death probably, not that that is saying much either.  LoL

[Lionheart]

But we're not talking about people who have actually "died".  We're talking about people who are supposedly "near death".
We don't even know what "near death" means in most of these cases.  We don't even know what point a person officially ceases to be alive. 

In their reality at that exact time, they were dead and already focusing on their next reality. If they were really clinically dead, even for a brief amount of time, I'm sure the shift would have occurred almost instantaneously. When one light turns off another one turns on. 

[LightBeam]

I think the term Near Death Experience should be replaced with Temporary Death Experience, because in many cases the people who reported these experiences, were pronounced dead by medical staff (no pulse, no brain function, etc), so no functioning physical body. It does not matter for how long. Your consciousness is free of the limitations of the living biological organism and is able to observe and experience with FULL awareness the higher dimensions.

[catmeow]

We don't even know what "near death" means in most of these cases.  We don't even know what point a person officially ceases to be alive. 
All this talk about Near Death Experiences is kinda superfluous since we don't actually have any way to measure such an event.

I think the term Near Death Experience should be replaced with Temporary Death Experience, because in many cases the people who reported these experiences, were pronounced dead by medical staff (no pulse, no brain function, etc), so no functioning physical body. It does not matter for how long. Your consciousness is free of the limitations of the living biological organism and is able to observe and experience with FULL awareness the higher dimensions.

Well actually the criteria used is zero blood flow to the brain and zero EEG in the cortex and brain stem. Clinically this defines brain death. There are certain surgeries where these conditions are induced on purpose, eg during certain brain surgeries. The body temperature is lowered and the heart is stopped. Instrumentation is used to establish that electrical activity in the brain has stopped. When brain death is established, surgery is quickly performed, before restarting the heart. This procedure was used with Pam Reynolds, who subsequently reported a detailed and highly veridical NDE. She described her surgery and the instruments used.

In general, 20 seconds after the heart stops in cardiac arrest, electrical activity in the brain ceases. This is brain death.  It does have a definition and medically it is assumed that during such brain death, any type of lucid conscious experience is absolutely impossible. And yet it has happened and has been documented (as in Pam Reynolds case.

[catmeow]

I know we get the usual reports that people heard other people talking and the contents of those discussions are told by the individual who had the NDE or in the case above you report of the people reporting the tools the surgeon are using... these could almost be accounted by generalities.

A common criticism is that NDErs could easily just "guess" what happened during their surgeries, because we all have a good idea of what goes on during surgery. Well, one study has driven a coach and horses through this criticism.

In the study there were two similar sized sample groups of subjects who had undergone surgeries. One group consisted of subjects who experienced an NDE during their surgery, during which they were able to view what was going on. The other group consisted of subjects who did not have an NDE and had no recollection of being conscious during their surgery. Both groups were asked to describe their own surgeries to the best of their abilities, using guesswork in the case of the non-NDE group.

When the results were analyzed, it was found that the non-NDE group gave descriptions which BORE NO SIMILARITY to what actually transpired in theatre. On the other hand, the NDE group gave accounts which were very accurate.

I will try to find a link to the study and post it.

[Lionheart]

 I watched a show last year about NDE's and there was a Cardiologist that was putting picture cards high up in his Cardiac Arrest room, just so he could see if anyone noticed it during their NDE. He hasn't reported back yet with his finding though. That shows that this concept is finally getting respect by the Medical Community. It only has to start with one doctor before it will snowball. Hopefully some day!
The show was named Primetime Nightline (Beyond Belief). It had to do with Bob Woodruff recalling his own NDE from a road side bomb blast injury he suffered while doing a news story in Iraq. I made notes on that show. One NDE was a 5 year old boy who sees a man in a high chair, he takes this as being God, he also saw dead relatives. The boy had a flesh eating disease and was in a coma for 2 months.There was also a man who had a NDE after a Helicopter crash he was in, he saw his life flashing before him and time seemed to be slowing down. They had a Atheist who reported seeing nothingness, but all the religious people reported seeing Angels or God and reported the light/tunnel vision and deceased relatives awaiting at the end of them.
One of the best reported NDE's and complete shut down of the physical body was due to a stroke that Jill Bolte Taylor had. She was a Neurologist as well, so this was an eye opener for her too. It totally changed her perception on life. Here is the link, a fascinating story! http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html?source=facebook#.T00-RIoRH2R.facebook
Here is another interesting link on a video from a Cardiologist named Dr. Pim van Lommel that has done research on this very topic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFxc67bLrW0&feature=related

[catmeow]

Lionheart, the cardiologist putting cards up is called Dr Sam Parnia. His study involves 25 hospitals and is due to report their results this year. The study is called the "Aware" study. It's easy to google.

Thanks for the list of cases and links. I will check them out. If you go to youtube and search for "NDE" or "near death experience" or "IANDS", there are plenty of clips of people describing their own NDEs. Mostly these clips are 8 or 9 minutes long, so just enough to hold the attention!

Incidentally, it's not true that atheists necessarily describe nothingness. You will find cases of atheists who do report meetings with spiritual beings and subsequently convert to theism (but not necessarily religion).  Young kids report similar experiences as cultured adults, but their experiences are less sophisticated, ie they talk of a nice man rather than Jesus. People of different religions all describe similar experiences, but substitute their own deity for any spiritual being they might meet. So the experience does seem to be at least partially symbolic rather than entirely literal.

But all faiths and ages, regardless of culture describe basically the same thing.

Just browse youtube. There are hundreds of cases and documentaries to watch.

[Lionheart]

 Thanks for the info catmeow. The comment about the Atheist was due to there being an Atheist on that show who reported seeing nothingness and yes there is plenty of videos to be found on Youtube.com pertaining to this subject. I would be curious to hear Dr. Parnia's findings. Hopefully there is a report forthcoming!  

[Contenteo]

What a great discussion.

For some time now I have been of the opinion it is the same phenomenon/pattern.

I would like to congratulate the community. A year ago, in my eyes, there was not this consensus on this subject.

But now, it seems there is consensus here. This is a nice example of how we, as a independent scattered case study of specialized individuals, are making progress in a 'cutting edge field' very recently (relative) made possible by the invention of the internet.

Cheers,
Contenteo

[Volgerle]

Regarding reality fluctuations, I had one on the operating table with a fluctuation during what otherwise might have been a 'genuine' NDE. This makes me think until this very day about it. That's why when I wrote it down I called it a 'quasi-NDE' or 'half-NDE'. I'm also still puzzled how much of 'deadliness' I had then. I cannot call it 'just an OBE' however, there is too much of a difference to what I had then in following months as OBE/AP/LD experiences. A vast difference for me, personally.

[catmeow]

Volgerle, would you be willing to share more details of your "quasi NDE" and how it differed from other OBEs and APs you've had? Thanks,

[Xanth]

Volgerle, would you be willing to share more details of your "quasi NDE" and how it differed from other OBEs and APs you've had? Thanks,

Yeah that'd be kinda neat to read about.