Evidence for Astral Realm/Body/Experience

[Beyonder]

quote:Originally posted by epoq

Beyonder,

i'm just wondering how well your 'empirical rationalism' deals with new areas of science such as quantum physics and more specifically 'string theory' (www.mkaku.org)?.......

I agree with the string theory. I prefer the theory of Quantum Consciousness myself.

http://home.infionline.net/~jforberg/index.html

I have no doubt OBE's or whatever you people call them happen. The question is whether it happens inside or outside the mind. The other question is when. When did it happen? The other problem I have is the religious nuts in this world that want to connect Christ all mighty to this experience. It always seems whenever science discovers something new; the church is there to stick something in.

[Beyonder]

quote:Originally posted by Veccolo

quote:Originally posted by Beyonder

What evidence do you have of such an event?

Beyonder, OBEs are real, even Stephen LaBerge admits that. The "problem" is, there is NO evidence that the experience takes place outside the body.

If you read the experiences posted on this forum, you will see that most (if not all) of them can be explained as a form of WILDs or regular LDs, which is nothing paranormal.

Interesting....

[Beyonder]

quote:Originally posted by Sam

Beyonder, I have come accross nuts like you before, and in fact have been one myself.  You'll get over it eventually.

One thing I notice about your signature is the massive amounts of references to the bible.  Are you confusing metaphysics with organised religion?

I am not a nut, but people who have an invisible means of support are. LOL. Sometimes I just kill myself. LOL LOL LOL LOL.....

[Stillwater]

Beyonder- you bring up several valid points; but, if you wish to start an actual conversation here that doesn't dissociate into inane ramblings about opinion and asinine interjection, you must not invite it through open beligerence. That is a virtual "kick me" sign.

As to your statements, they have weight, and should not be dismissed without due evidence to the contrary. I personally believe in OBE's, but I am still debating their nature myself.

You embrace Empiricism- that is honorable- although Descartes himself spoke volumes about how the senses can decieve us, as every sensory input is subjective, leaving us bereft of any concrete basis on which to place objectivity, as fact (reality) cannot be fully understood through hearsay (the senses).

To truly learn, we must step beyond the shores of "proven" fact, with a tentative exploratory attitude. Of course we shouldn't believe everything we hear, but we shouldn't dismiss anything either, until there is irrefutable evidence to the contrary.  

Several things about OBE would lead me to doubt their metaphysical nature, but I have not obliterated the notion that they could actually be transcendental: they only seem to occur with the increased melatonin levels associated with the latter sleep cycle, and only then when we force the body into the normal sleep patterns; they consist of dream-like experiences similar to those recalled from REM cycles, and they are sometimes completely non-lucid; the brain produces signals in the time of REM which could be responsible for OBEs.

IN SPITE OF ALL OF THIS NEGATIVE EVIDENCE, THERE STILL REMAIN SHAKY ANOMOLIES.

Several mystics and adepts at OBE have obtained information that they could not have obtained by any known bodily faculty, such as an inaccessible number, or, as in the case of the U.S. government's program codenamed "Stargate", information about remote locations later confirmed accurate, which statistics would oppose being guessed. Others have obtained statements from "dead" persons whose confirmation could ony be gained from other living individuals not initially involved in the situation, such as a spouse's unique mannerisms which only the other could tell.

I hope this helps- I feel for you, beyonder, I really do.

Thank you,
Stillwater

[Phong]

The statement in your signature, Beyonder, ""No one knows and no one will ever be certain," is a statement of faith. It relies on the "invisible crutch" of nebulous epistemology and astonishingly empty assumptions about the future.

You might recognize it as Agnosticism, which is just as much a belief system as Atheism, "New Age"-isms, Unitarianism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. Just as Neo-Thomist Catholics can assert that all Truth is knowable, you can assert that it isn't on the same grounds.

Lots of good stuff in this thread - just want to thank everyone.

[Beyonder]

quote:Originally posted by Phong

The statement in your signature, Beyonder, ""No one knows and no one will ever be certain," is a statement of faith. It relies on the "invisible crutch" of nebulous epistemology and astonishingly empty assumptions about the future.

You might recognize it as Agnosticism, which is just as much a belief system as Atheism, "New Age"-isms, Unitarianism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. Just as Neo-Thomist Catholics can assert that all Truth is knowable, you can assert that it isn't on the same grounds.

Lots of good stuff in this thread - just want to thank everyone.

You must be one of those people who think everyone believes in something and everyone has faith. Bull.... I am an Atheist. ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION OR A FAITH, but the happy freedom from them. Declaring it to be otherwise, sadly, will not make it so.

If atheism is religion, "albino" is a suntan.

[BurningAngel]

quote:What evidence do you have of such an event? NONE! Why does it happen, is it because you say it does or what? You fail to provide evidence. You are just one of those religious nuts that need to be silenced. He who makes the claim must also provide evidence.

im not religious at all you moron.
http://english.ytmnd.com/

i write AI for a video game company and most likely know more about science than you so shut your hole. Iv DONE astral projection and i know ALL the theories behind it....iv personally spoken with micheal persinger and steven leberge...there is nothing your saying that we have not heard before....so why do you even bother?

As far as evidence for astral projection yes i do have evidence for it. iv personally validated it in my own personal experiments. Im willing to wager that from the way you sound you dont know ANYTHING about science or neurology. do you even understand the aspects of the brain that play a role in the experiance? Iv heard ALL the theories from the scientific community and the spiritual community, and NEITHER side has a good one. either deal with that or take a hike, no one cares.

[Phong]

Now is where I quote the American Heritage Dictionary. Atheism is "Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. The doctrine that there is no God or gods." Note the words "doctrine" and "disbelief" (as "disbelief" is the belief of that which is not)

If you want to claim that you have no religion, and are bereft of a belief system, don't say you're Atheist - if you do you give them a bad name. Atheism is a firm declaration that God does not exist, not indifference. Many of them take pride in their ability to defend this belief. If you neither believe nor disbelieve in God, claiming that you don't know (and can't know), you're not Atheistic - you're Agnostic, which is the declaration that you can't know.

If you have no belief system, as you claim, why are you trying to defend one? Shouldn't you just be sitting quietly, listening, and gathering empirical evidence (which would be a wise and noble thing to do)?

[Sam]

this is going nowhere people, I wouldn't waste your energy.  People like Beyonder are simply encouraged by argument.

[Selski]

Quote from Bystander

"If atheism is religion, "albino" is a suntan."


Love it! []

Sarah

[BurningAngel]

ok the spin stops here.....when you boil religion down what you have is "worldview". atheism IS a "worldview" just like "religion" is a "worldview". Both make assertions...if neither were making assertions they wouldnt exist....give me a break. Im an atheist and even i know that. I hate being an atheist because most atheists are stupid anti-war hippies. A major tenent of atheism should infact include killing hippies.

- i think critical thinking has officially died.

[Kazbadan]

I think i can understand Beyonder. It is boring when you ask for proofs but people will only give answers like "If you believe that it´s real it is real", etc,etc. This are vague answers that do not answer in the pretended manner.

When i seek for answers i like to see rea ans solid answers. For example, at a few time ago when i was doing what Beyonder it is doing now (searching for evidences of AP), people gabe me nice answers:  they told me about proofs that they had in their own experiences (i must trust them) and that it´s enough.  

I will not ask for scientific evidences because they just care in about proof that obes just happens in our minds, that thei are illusions. Well, since i know that scientist only care about that i start searching for proofs on the experiences of people in AP forum. They reported me nice proofs that shows that AP are more than just mere hallucination.

Now i am learning obe to study it by myself. In the worst case, i will discover that Obes are just very lucid dreams and that they are funny. In the other hand i can find that there islife after death and that it is possible to get out of our bodys! I will not become insane for doing it, neither i wil get a disease of some kind. So, even if they are not real, i only have positive things to learn with obes.

[Sam]

quote:I am not a nut, but people who have an invisible means of support are. LOL. Sometimes I just kill myself. LOL LOL LOL LOL.....

Nice way of avoiding the question though, mr-I-Have-Proof-That-Metaphysics-Do-Not-Exist LOL LOL LOL LOL.....

This makes me a hippocrite, having just advocated ignoring you - a frustrated comment said in a moment of weakness (I remember having a very similar argument to this one long ago, and I couldn't be bothered participating at first), but you are making an unjustified sweeping generalisation about what it means to be spiritual.  I'm not asking you to believe in what we do here, but I do think someone needs to teach you some kind of respect for human beings, even if you don't agree with their point of view.

Unfortunately your attitude of treating a group of people who have generally similar interests as if they are a single homogenous entity is destructive and dangerous.  Some of us may be living in a fantasy, believing in all sorts of crap that gets sloshed around the net these days, others are down to earth regular people trying to find out what spirituality is all about.  I don't think any of us would ever do anything to harm another living being, and in fact most of us would not fight back if you were to take a gun and start executing us, because it is against our nature to hurt others.

In any paradigm there are always extremes.  You will find that extremists are generally the minority.  Spirituality has its extremists, but they are usually individuals who have used their religion or belief to justify antisocial behavior and psychopathy.  This trend is also true for the paradigm of science.  Most scientists are capable of comprehending (not necessarily believing in) things that may exist but which haven't yet been proven to exist.  That, in my opinion, is the rational way to behave, as it gives science room to accept new logic, new ideas, test new hypothesis, and move forward.  Some scientists, like you, the extremists, generally don't have the vision to drive science forwards, and typically spend your lives preaching science (the type you grew up believing in) in classrooms and lecture theatres, or having these saddening, egotistical arguments with people you don't even know in an attempt to justify your self worth by mocking others.  You will justify that you are trying to save us from wasting our precious hours with a "dogma" which is as yet unproven.  I'm not saying you're closed minded.  You are just selfish, in that you ask others to prove their position to you, rather than actually getting off your (presumably) lazy arse and finding out for yourself.  

When you study Physics, you don't go into the lab and start grilling the lecturer to justify his belief in vector motion... you actually do the experiments, or watch someone else do it, to find out for yourself.  You can read all the books and get a theoretical knowledge, but not really understand until you experience it in practice.  

Unproven doesn't equate to Unprovable

Just because we are studying spirituality doesn't mean we've abandoned science, but you seem to think the two are mutually exclusive.  The only difference between a physics lab and the spiritual lab is that spiritual experiments (apparently) aren't able to show any external evidence to others.  At least I haven't seen any compelling research with results to that effect, however there is some suggestive research if you can be bothered looking for it.  Anyway, there are still experiments out there if you can be bothered trying them, the exercises take minutes to do, and they won't turn you into a brainwashed zombie.  You can accept or reject whatever you experience.  We won't judge you.

Personally, spirituality is a hypothesis.  Its unproven, yet circumstantial evidence from personal experiments as well as the large amount of testimony from people who claim to have witnessed proof has encouraged me to at least try out some more of the experiments.  I haven't devoted my life to it, it hasn't destroyed my rational mind, and it definately doesn't make me want to crash a building into an airoplane(sic), or whatever.

You ask for evidence, but in the process of doing so you have ignored the testimony of some experienced AP'ers, and you refuse to undertake the experiments for yourself.  Maybe you're scared you'll become a raving lunatic like us astral-zombies!!!

Join us....
Jooin uss....

he he he

Anyhow take it easy, take care, and good luck to you!  (I eagerly await your total ignorance of this post, or your disecting it into one sentence quotes, or your witty comeback that trys to make fun of some aspect of myself.  If I actually get a reasonable reply I will be happily surprised )

[Veccolo]

Kazbadan,

quote:I will not ask for scientific evidences because they just care in about proof that obes just happens in our minds, that thei are illusions. Well, since i know that scientist only care about that [...]

So, you _know_ that _every_ scientist wants to disprove obes? Where did you get that knowledge from? In fact, many people who _believe_ in experiences outside the body are close-minded about scientific facts. They say scientific proofs are irrelevant, which they're not.

Personally I think it's sad. There _might_ be people who can do this, yet they refuse to prove it. That's just as dumb as the "rule" from magick to not "show off" your skills, or the "rule" in martial arts to never use your "deadly" skills you've exercised all the time.

If they did prove it to mainstream science, they'd reach far more people this way.

[conspiracy mode]
Wait, I forgot ... the gouvernment will not allow that. That changes everything of course.
[/conspiracy mode]

[...]

quote:Now i am learning obe to study it by myself. In the worst case, i will discover that Obes are just very lucid dreams and that they are funny. In the other hand i can find that there islife after death and that it is possible to get out of our bodys! I will not become insane for doing it, neither i wil get a disease of some kind. So, even if they are not real, i only have positive things to learn with obes.

Very true, especially the last sentence. I completely agree.

[Kazbadan]

Veccolo, i said that about scientists because when i see, for example, scientists explaining ufos, they will always say "Oh, it´s nothing special, blablabla", etc, even if it was a really strange ufo.

I mean, all the time that e see a scientist in TV, speaking about paranormal stuff, they will act in a manner that seems that hey want insult and consider abnormal all the people that believes in paranormal.

I think i can count by the fingers of my hand the scientists that i know (portuguese) that dont act like that, instead accepting paranormal as a possibilitie to studie.

[Nagual]

Beyonder, why did you come here, on this forum, if you just think all this is bullsh*t...?
Did you come here to enlighten us all with your wisdom?

[Beyonder]

I thought the best place to start learning about Astral Travel was to ask the people who experience it. I am very skeptical about many things. So for those who make the claim to have such an experience, I ask what evidence is there to support such an experience?

[Donal]

Beyonder, OBEs are real, even Stephen LaBerge admits that. The "problem" is, there is NO evidence that the experience takes place outside the body.

If you read the experiences posted on this forum, you will see that most (if not all) of them can be explained as a form of WILDs or regular LDs, which is nothing paranormal.

What are WILD's or LD's? Does it imply that OBE's are not real?

[stubborn-envelope]

You are just one of those religious nuts that need to be silenced

I think this would go against free speech.

[EsotericFury]

I have no doubt OBE's or whatever you people call them happen. The question is whether it happens inside or outside the mind. The other question is when. When did it happen? The other problem I have is the religious nuts in this world that want to connect Christ all mighty to this experience. It always seems whenever science discovers something new; the church is there to stick something in.

lol so typical of clueless, trollish, athiest science worshippers. Always thinking small. Of course "it" happens in the brain, you butthead. But who the hell is one to say that what this "it", the mechanical processes that are going on in the brain, does not have associated external information (higher dimensions/spirit realms)? The processes in the brain does not prove that they are the Ultimate cause of OBE. Saying "it" is the cause, is just wishfull thinking by scientists who's job is to find answers, and the morons that follow them. Science doesn't know everything, and when they can't come up with the true answers they just make B.S. up. Deep down inside they are just going "just leave me alone so that I can get back to my real work of finding fossils and collect my funded/paid paycheck."

[Ben K]

Beyonder, OBEs are real, even Stephen LaBerge admits that. The "problem" is, there is NO evidence that the experience takes place outside the body.

If you read the experiences posted on this forum, you will see that most (if not all) of them can be explained as a form of WILDs or regular LDs, which is nothing paranormal.

What are WILD's or LD's? Does it imply that OBE's are not real?

Hes basically saying that they are not paranormal because they are dreams with different levels of awareness.

which is like saying all paranormal experiences can be explained as a form of "ghosts". nothing paranormal there right  

[David Warner]

Ap Friends,

The problem that I see is that science is trying to prove oobe's if there are real or not. They can run all the tests, eeg, video tape, measure blood flow, heart rate etc... and narrow it down to lucid dreaming. But what science can't do is give a strong definitive answer why people are able validate these experiences. Ingo Swann is a remarkable remote viewer and projectionist that was able to leave the body and validate targets in other rooms. -- what more proof does science need?

The biggest question is this - Near Death Experiences. People who've validated their experience while their body was 100% dead. Giving concrete solid evidence of their testimonies during a surgery, or the nde accident. Science can't explain this or give a hard core answer.

I believe that consciousness does filter through our physical bodies and are able to tap into the higher awareness through oobe.

something is deffinitely there!


Tvos

[mactombs]

Science is restricted to trying to explain this physical dimension ... the best it can do with OBEs is describe what is happening to the physical body. Science is blind to the mystical. It is a great tool, and language, to describe the fabric of this reality, but beyond that ...

You can trust science to tell you how a car works or why water evaporates, but you can't trust it in any part of anything philosophical, metaphysical. Science is grounded. Anyone who tries to push it as the right and only truth to how to interpret everything that is, is pompous and far more religious that he would ever admit to - not to mention utterly blind.

[qbeac]

Hi Beyonder and the rest of people, as some of you already know, in a Spanish Science forum we have developed a method to try to verify if these experiences are real or imaginary, and we believe this method is a valid one in order to obtain that verification.

In Spain we have recently started to work with an experienced projector who believes he can read them... at least he is going to give it a try. After many delays due to different circumstances external to the experiment itself, we are now (16-dic-05) almost ready to start doing some serious testing. So, we'll see how things unfold in the months to come.

We encourage all of you to do similar tests, either all by yourselves at home, or with the help of your friends or family members. And if anybody feels ready enough to read the correct words of the Agnostic Method, we will be glad to engage into further talks with you in order to do an experiment in a controlled environment (lab, etc.)... and if everything goes well, we would love to be able to publish it in a scientific journal.

You'll find lots more information about this experiment in the following links:

- Whats Your Proof?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

- Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

The following one is somewhat related to the above and it is also interesting:

- Can you move a physical object from the astral plane?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202

Un saludo, qbeac.

P.S. This is the same information in the original Spanish Science forum:

- Post #301 y #302. pag. 31. Instrucciones del Método Agnostic de verificación astral.
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?p=38484#post38484

[Ben K]

I think you guys are forgetting that science isnt some institution but rather a way of thinking. it will get around to OBEs eventually but until then there are two types of people in the world. those who believe in them and those who dont. the ones who believe are trying with all their might to spread their belief while the ones that arent are willing to go through hell to disprove it.

Its not a battle of facts, nothing ever is. its a battle of beliefs.