Has OBEs changed your attitudes or belief systems?

[Alex-Anderson]

I have been having OBE's for quite a while now (first one in my early 20's and I'm now in my late 30's), and funny enough I had another one only just a few nights ago – weird one as well 
 
However when I was with some friends last week they were discussing some dreams they had the night before and as usual the conversation stopped and they turned to me for one of my stories as I have often mentioned some of my OBE's.
 
So I began with recent OBE I had and ran through the story such as how I exited, what I saw, where I went and so on. But as usual they would challenge certain aspects, often with disbelief, and eventually turning into a conversation for amusement rather than interest.
 
As I was explaining that story on this occasion I felt more separated from the 'audience', and realised through my reactions when they were not taking me seriously that I have adopted a completely different belief system to theirs.
 
I have never thought about it but I have realised that my experiences have changed my perception and views on life – my life has not change significantly as a result of my OBE's but they have definitely educated me, and positively influenced my outlook and behaviours.

[Xanth]

OBE/APs didn't really "CHANGE" my belief systems so much as further reinforced them.

I grew up in a very atheist household...
So, that probably fueled my anti-religion views a bit... however, I also had my own vastly different ideas than what my parents tried to instill in me.

For my entire life, I found myself questioning my dreams... I found myself, quite often, wondering about the validity and reality of them.
I eventually managed to put two and two together.  However, it wasn't really until I found all the ideas on Phasing that I was able to really reinforce those ideas within myself.  And it wasn't until I started to consciously project myself, that those beliefs then turned into KNOWNS to me. 

So yeah, doing all this hasn't changed my beliefs... it simply helped to reinforce them within me.

[Alex-Anderson]

For my entire life, I found myself questioning my dreams... I found myself, quite often, wondering about the validity and reality of them.

Funny, same here. In fact I still have no answer.

So yeah, doing all this hasn't changed my beliefs... it simply helped to reinforce them within me.

Well stated, only problem is OBEs have left me probably with more questions than answers.

[blis]

It's given me direction.

I never used to know what I should be doing with myself. The material life of attachment and sense gratification always felt empty but the religious practices that I knew of didnt appeal to me. So I did very little with myself.

AP inspired me to look for other practices I didnt previously know about. Now I have a worthwhile persuit, the unfoldment of consciousness. I have plenty to do with my time now.

Another big change in outlook is that God now seems alot farther away than he used to.

[Xanth]

Funny, same here. In fact I still have no answer.

I have no doubt you'll find your answers soon, just as I have. 

Well stated, only problem is OBEs have left me probably with more questions than answers.

Time.
That's all you need. 

[Alex-Anderson]

I never grew up following any religious belief system. However I was aware of them at a young age due to my mum's grandparents coming from Christian background and my father's grandparents coming from a Jewish background. So often their belief systems would be pushed down onto to us of whom my parents tried to avoid influencing how we were raised.
 
So my approach to OBE's has never been influenced due to a religious school of thought, or even from a spiritual school of thought.
 
I have often wondered if you're present belief system can play some role in disseminating how we experience our OBE's/AP's, sort of putting some spin on what reality is -  god what  mess trying to think about.

[Xanth]

I have often wondered if you're present belief system can play some role in disseminating how we experience our OBE's/AP's, sort of putting some spin on what reality is -  god what  mess trying to think about.

Definitely!  100% it has absolute affect upon your projections.

Your astral experiences are your beliefs + your expectations... mixed with your thoughts and emotional output at the time.
In other words, you'll experience the full technicolour 3D version of your beliefs and expectations coming at you in full force.

[manwesulimo2004]

Another big change in outlook is that God now seems alot farther away than he used to.

Interesting point... I think. What exactly do you mean?

[AlanRK]

Your astral experiences are your beliefs + your expectations... mixed with your thoughts and emotional output at the time.
In other words, you'll experience the full technicolour 3D version of your beliefs and expectations coming at you in full force.

You make it sound like objective astral experiences do not exist, which is not the case. These things have an effect on your experiences, yes, but how great the effect is relies entirely on how much you allow. There are also some places in the astral where subconscious influence is more common.

[Xanth]

You make it sound like objective astral experiences do not exist

Bingo!  
You'll quickly learn that objective experiences don't exist.  
There's only how you perceive things.  Physical AND non-physical experiences alike.

which is not the case. These things have an effect on your experiences, yes, but how great the effect is relies entirely on how much you allow. There are also some places in the astral where subconscious influence is more common.

Don't worry, it's not something you'll understand right away.  

[AlanRK]

Bingo!  
You'll quickly learn that objective experiences don't exist.  
There's only how you perceive things.  Physical AND non-physical experiences alike.
Don't worry, it's not something you'll understand right away.  

Please can the condescension. Your opinion does not supercede mine, and it seems like you have some preconceptions about how much experience I've got. That would certainly reinforce your point that preconceptions colour your experiences, but your viewpoint does not hold true for everyone.

[Killa Rican]

I agree to an extent. We just have some weird "Belief Bucket" in our minds and we NEED to fill it with something. The brain seems to be wired for it. Even if one does not believe in a God Or Spiritual World, they can still believe in other stuff that lacks tangible evidence such as bigfoot, Alien Abduction, Or Law of attraction. etc.

I do KNOW there is a Spiritual World, And I have very strong reasons to believe that there is. And how it all potentially connects with our astral journeys. But most of us will not agree on how we perceive it. If there is a "Plan" going on in the other side for us humans i do detest the way they've gone on about it lol.

[blis]

Another big change in outlook is that God now seems alot farther away than he used to.

Interesting point... I think. What exactly do you mean?

I used to think that when I died, all or at least alot would be revealed. That I'd somehow be more aware of God. I know AP isnt the same as being dead but the proccess hasnt shed any light on the subject of God and I think I'm now starting to get an idea of just how long the path back to the absolute must be.

I still firmly believe in God, I cant say my views on "him" have changed because I never had a preconcieved idea of what "he" was other than the source of everything. But I dont speak/pray to God any more and I used to.

I still really want to know God but I'm starting to think it's going to take a very very long time.

[Alex-Anderson]

As Xanth has already pointed out depending on a person's belief system, will influence what they will see. So if your belief system is one of religious beliefs then perhaps your journeys would be objectively or even subjectively in search of some form of spiritual attainment.
 
Ironically despite all of our individual experiences, beliefs/faiths etc, collectively the one belief system that is shared is the projection itself – as so apparent by all the posts in this forum. This shared belief system collectively can also influence our behaviour and attitudes when projecting/trying to project which arguably could also just be a collective placebo effect.
 
So perhaps projections being controlled and conditioned by our subconscious is a self protecting mechanism to prevent a collective unification or some sort of mechanical solidarity. What I mean by that is it you don't have one projection (be it OBE or AP) and suddenly erased yourself preservation and adopted a new one, the sub conscious (generally) appears to be stronger than that –this however could also be a reflection of our cultural belief systems due to the current age for which we live in, where as perhaps this may have been the opposite in society several generations ago (where 'clan' thinking/conditioning would have been more apparent).

[Xanth]

Please can the condescension. Your opinion does not supercede mine, and it seems like you have some preconceptions about how much experience I've got. That would certainly reinforce your point that preconceptions colour your experiences, but your viewpoint does not hold true for everyone.

I'm not pointing out my opinion.
I'm pointing out facts as found by quantum physics.

Our world and our experiences are only a creation of our perceptions.

My question to you would be... why do you seem to be taking offense to that?

I made that same mistake not too very long ago.
Someone asked me about this very thing... and I said something to the effect that "I put an apple down in front of you... truth is it's an apple".
Well, y'know what?  I was wrong.  My perception of it was that it's an apple, and that's really the only thing I can say...HOWEVER, it's still only my perception.  Just because your perception agrees with mine, still doesn't give validity to the statement.  

To make more sense of this, I suggest reading John Magnus' book, "Astral Projection and the Nature of Reality".  He writes about it ever more so elegantly than I can.  

You are right about one thing though, after re-reading my post, I was condescending... I do apologize for that.  It wasn't my intention. 

[Naykid]

I think he means for you to stop saying stuff like bingo and yes, as if you know the end results and he is a good little student for getting it so quickly.   I'm not trying to be rude, and I could be totally wrong but I've noticed that when someone says something that fits into your perception you come along and put your stamp on it as if NOW we can agree and follow what the person just said.  It does sound condescending and can get irritating after reading twenty posts in a row.

[AlanRK]

I'm not pointing out my opinion.
I'm pointing out facts as found by quantum physics.

Our world and our experiences are only a creation of our perceptions.

My question to you would be... why do you seem to be taking offense to that?

I made that same mistake not too very long ago.
Someone asked me about this very thing... and I said something to the effect that "I put an apple down in front of you... truth is it's an apple".
Well, y'know what?  I was wrong.  My perception of it was that it's an apple, and that's really the only thing I can say...HOWEVER, it's still only my perception.  Just because your perception agrees with mine, still doesn't give validity to the statement.  

To make more sense of this, I suggest reading John Magnus' book, "Astral Projection and the Nature of Reality".  He writes about it ever more so elegantly than I can.  

You are right about one thing though, after re-reading my post, I was condescending... I do apologize for that.  It wasn't my intention. 

I do not take offense to it personally, I know what I know so your viewpoints do not influence my own experiences. I find it a very problematic pattern that many people are spreading the myth that astral projection is largely influenced by beliefs, preconceptions, and other subconscious stuff. I'm saying that this is true, to an extent. You do realize that by saying this to impressionable newcomers to the area of astral projection, you are forcing on them an expectation that their subconscious influences are here to stay and it's impossible for them to get any objective information? I find this damaging and reckless, simply because astral projection is a door into the wider reaches of our reality and the potentials for knowledge gained there are limitless. Going into it with the expectation that it's mostly subconscious fluff is a terrible attitude that discourages people from even bothering to fight against that subconscious fluff (and yes, it's possible) to gain truly objective experiences which will benefit them in unimaginable ways. Otherwise, if astral projection is completely based on beliefs, then why bother doing it in the first place? Flying around does get boring after a while, really. I learned pretty early on to distinguish what is a subconscious image, what is real, and what is the two mixed together. It's a matter of watching out for those subconscious influences and not letting them have too much sway.

[Xanth]

AlanRK, I can definitely see where you're confused about my position.
I shall try to elaborate.

I break down the non-physical into a couple (well, more than that really, but this is simplified) separate areas of consciousness.

There is the "Personal Consciousness" (also referred to by people as "the astral", "imagination", "subconscious", "Focus 2 oC", etc).
This is the same place where we dream, lucid dream, and do what people classically refer to as "Astral Projection" (although that term "astral projection" has taken on a more all encompassing definition these days).  This area of consciousness is 100% based around your beliefs and expectations.  There's literally nothing you could say that could change my opinion on that... and I'm 100% confident of that fact.  This is based entirely upon my own experiences.

Then there is the "Collective Consciousness".  This area could more aptly be referred to as the Buddhic Plane (Some might refer to this as the Mental plane, but I think that gets confused with what people term the "higher astral", I don't believe this is the case though, but then I despise these mystical/old world terms).  Frank referred to this as Focus 3 oC... Robert Monroe labeled these areas as Focus 23, 24, 25, 26 and 27.  These areas are better termed as Objectively Subjective.  As what you see is going to be objective, but subjective in the manner that what you see is going to be even more based upon your perceptions.  If that makes sense.

I know what I know so your viewpoints do not influence my own experiences.

Nor should they.  I do believe that your own viewpoints will, however.

I find it a very problematic pattern that many people are spreading the myth that astral projection is largely influenced by beliefs, preconceptions, and other subconscious stuff. I'm saying that this is true, to an extent.

It's certainly no myth.  At least not how I've experienced it.

You do realize that by saying this to impressionable newcomers to the area of astral projection, you are forcing on them an expectation that their subconscious influences are here to stay and it's impossible for them to get any objective information?

Not at all.  I'm making them aware that it's very important to be able to keep a tight grip on your thoughts and emotions while in the non-physical.  I believe a person who can not do that will lock themselves permanently into their "Personal Consciousness" area.

You're more than welcome to teach how you see it.  Just as I'm more than welcome to teach how I see it.  This forum, and forums like it, are great because a new person can come here and get many differing viewpoints on the subject.  I do encourage people to just HAVE experiences first... then worry about categorizing and analyzing them later.

I find this damaging and reckless,

And I firmly disagree. 

simply because astral projection is a door into the wider reaches of our reality and the potentials for knowledge gained there are limitless.

Definitely!  No doubt about that.

Going into it with the expectation that it's mostly subconscious fluff is a terrible attitude that discourages people from even bothering to fight against that subconscious fluff (and yes, it's possible) to gain truly objective experiences which will benefit them in unimaginable ways.

Hence why I do not do that, nor ever have.  None of what a person will experience in the non-physical can be construed as "subconscious fluff".  It all has a deep meaning for that person.  Whether through their experiences they determine a hidden truth about themselves or they use this area to fulfill their living wishes... it's all real and non of it is "fluff". 

Otherwise, if astral projection is completely based on beliefs, then why bother doing it in the first place?

I've never stated it's completely based on beliefs.  I've stated that if you can not control your beliefs and expectations through control of your thoughts, then it *WILL* be based completely on those things.  THAT, in my opinion, is a waste of time in the non-physical.  This kind of stuff leads to emotional cycle loops which do you no good.

Flying around does get boring after a while, really.

Oh dude, I love it.  I've been flying around in the non-physical all my life. 

I learned pretty early on to distinguish what is a subconscious image, what is real, and what is the two mixed together. It's a matter of watching out for those subconscious influences and not letting them have too much sway.

Then you're already one step ahead.  Goodstuff! 
Some people take many years to figure that one out... me personally, I've been lucid dreaming all my life and if I knew 20+ years ago that I could have done MORE with it and increased my awareness even more... well, I'd be an even happier camper right now.   

In any case, I teach what I teach here because that is how I've learned what works and what *I FEEL* is best for people to learn. 
Feel free to 100% contradict me whenever you want by posting your own opinion on whatever subject is being stated.  I don't take it personally, and actually I use the knowledge to grow myself!  It wouldn't be the first time when I read someone else's opinion and find that "Hey!  That actually does fit better with my own experiences!"... and I end up taking it within myself and making it part of my own construct.

As I said... give John Magnus' book a read.  That dude has a firm grasp of these concepts.
If you DO NOT agree with anything I have said here... meh.  That's fine too. 

*phew* that was a lot longer than I originally intended... but hopefully it cleared up some things.
I don't like doing uber long posts here.  >_<  I'm quite lazy.  LOL

[AlanRK]

OK, you've explained your viewpoint well and coherently, I think I understand where we're disagreeing on some points. Mostly on how we catagorize the certain astral levels and to what extent we've personally experienced them. I have mostly experienced the "higher astral" levels so my perception is that the astral is mostly objective when the traveller is objective. Unfortunately it seems I'm mostly not used to the intensive labelling terms that most are using here so I'm a bit behind linguistically, although I have read Robert Monroe's books I didn't pay much attention to his concept of focus levels due to having no point of reference for most of them.

[Naykid]

OK, you've explained your viewpoint well and coherently, I think I understand where we're disagreeing on some points. Mostly on how we catagorize the certain astral levels and to what extent we've personally experienced them. I have mostly experienced the "higher astral" levels so my perception is that the astral is mostly objective when the traveller is objective. Unfortunately it seems I'm mostly not used to the intensive labelling terms that most are using here so I'm a bit behind linguistically, although I have read Robert Monroe's books I didn't pay much attention to his concept of focus levels due to having no point of reference for most of them.

That's where I get hung up.  But I also have a simple mind so that could be it.

[Xanth]

OK, you've explained your viewpoint well and coherently, I think I understand where we're disagreeing on some points.

I think this would be a boring world if we all agreed with everyone else.
In either case, yeah, I really don't mind (or really care) if people disagree with me.  I take what I can from it and leave it at that.
I don't try to sway people to my thinking... but in some cases, such as this, I'll try to elaborate a bit more on what I mean... especially if a misunderstanding has occurred.

Mostly on how we catagorize the certain astral levels and to what extent we've personally experienced them. I have mostly experienced the "higher astral" levels so my perception is that the astral is mostly objective when the traveller is objective. Unfortunately it seems I'm mostly not used to the intensive labelling terms that most are using here so I'm a bit behind linguistically, although I have read Robert Monroe's books I didn't pay much attention to his concept of focus levels due to having no point of reference for most of them.

I can understand that 100%.
I used to post on another forum that used quite different terminology than what I was used to... I found it very hard to integrate there though due to it.

In any case,
You really do sound like you've got lots of adventures under your belt... and I can't wait to read about them, if you're willing to share.  

That's where I get hung up.  But I also have a simple mind so that could be it.

It's for some and not for others.  
Actually, Nay, you and Stookie (and let's face it, many others here) have influenced me a bit over the last couple months in that I now suggest that people gain their experiences first THEN worry about categorizing and labeling them if they so choose.  
And for the folks who want to talk Focus Levels, I'm also more than happy to share what I think I know to be true!  hehe