How do OBE's compare to physical reality?

[Aaron330]

I haven't had an OBE yet although I'm pretty close. I was wondering, for those of you who are experienced in having these, how real do they seem? When you leave your body and look around your room, fly to other dimensions etc, is it just as real as waking reality? Is it just as real and vivid as "real life", or is it more dream like?

Thanks!

[Lionheart]

 It's a real as this physical Reality is. Sometimes it seems like it's even be more real than this physical Reality is!  

I know that likely doesn't make sense to you. Before I learned to AP, it wouldn't to me either. 

Sometimes the colors are much brighter and it seems like you are actually seeing some through a different pair of eyes. At that point you aren't seeing things like we do here. There is an extra "dimensional" feel to everything. Especially when you experience the "Grids" and Mandalas/Portals that sometimes appear there.

[Xanth]

Every bit as "real" as this physical reality.

[Aaron330]

Wow...just wow lol. That is incredible. You're right, I do find that hard to believe, but it definitely excites me even more to hear that. I can't imagine what a thrilling experience its going to be when I can finally get out of the body and start exploring. Thanks guys!

[LightBeam]

I wanted to add that besides the reality being even more real than what we are experiencing right now, I personally have very heightened emotions and great sense of adventures during APs. I have experienced all kinds of things that here you can only see in sci fi movies. Absolutely incredible.

[Aaron330]

I wanted to add that besides the reality being even more real than what we are experiencing right now, I personally have very heightened emotions and great sense of adventures during APs. I have experienced all kinds of things that here you can only see in sci fi movies. Absolutely incredible.

Wow. Amazing. I just found out about Astral Projection a few months ago, and I can hardly believe it. I grew up Christian so this was all stuff I never even heard about or if I did I was told it was evil and of the devil. I have recently had what you might call a "spiritual awakening" and have come out of my religion and no longer consider myself a Christian (although I will always follow the way of Christ, but Christianity is quite opposite of that unfortunately), so this whole world is brand new to me and its very exciting. I can't believe that AP isn't talked about or practiced more. It's actually too good to be true. You'd think everyone would want to be trying this stuff. Needless to say, I can't wait until my first full blown OBE experience!!

[Fusions]

Wow. Amazing. I just found out about Astral Projection a few months ago, and I can hardly believe it. I grew up Christian so this was all stuff I never even heard about or if I did I was told it was evil and of the devil. I have recently had what you might call a "spiritual awakening" and have come out of my religion and no longer consider myself a Christian (although I will always follow the way of Christ, but Christianity is quite opposite of that unfortunately), so this whole world is brand new to me and its very exciting. I can't believe that AP isn't talked about or practiced more. It's actually too good to be true. You'd think everyone would want to be trying this stuff. Needless to say, I can't wait until my first full blown OBE experience!!

Have fun
Yes, very spot on about christ and christianity:
Christ: 'I am the way' = Be the way I am

I think you will Love these series (safe download): http://kickass.to/neale-donald-walsch-conversations-with-god-series-t6413031.html

[Aaron330]

Have fun
Yes, very spot on about christ and christianity:
Christ: 'I am the way' = Be the way I am

I think you will Love these series (safe download): http://kickass.to/neale-donald-walsch-conversations-with-god-series-t6413031.html

Oh actually I just ordered that book the other day! I am waiting for it to come in. I've heard alot of good things about it. Lately I've been reading books such as "Christ is not a Person", many books by Alan Watts such as "Behold the Spirit", and a couple of books by liberal scholar Marcus Borg like "Meeting Jesus again for the first time". Jesus is so much more powerful and transcendent than Christianity gives him credit for. Saying that he is simply a god to be worshiped is an extremely boring and lazy way of interpreting his life and teachings.

[soarin12]

Jesus is so much more powerful and transcendent than Christianity gives him credit for. Saying that he is simply a god to be worshiped is an extremely boring and lazy way of interpreting his life and teachings.

I totally agree!  I've gone from church to church, and almost none of them come anywhere close to capturing the spirit of Christ that I experience deeply.

[deepspace]

I haven't had an OBE yet although I'm pretty close. I was wondering, for those of you who are experienced in having these, how real do they seem? When you leave your body and look around your room, fly to other dimensions etc, is it just as real as waking reality? Is it just as real and vivid as "real life", or is it more dream like?

Thanks!

It's truly unbelievable. There's really nothing dream-like about it really. Dreams are more like a vapor, a fuzzy memory. AP is a solid world, one you can walk around in and stamp your feet on the solid ground. There are 3 dimensions, sharp visuals, gravity. But the rules you know can also be broken. It has to be experienced to be believed, and even then it's hard to believe. You can say that it is as real as waking life which is true, but there are really no words to describe what it's like, other than to actually be there walking around in this other world, just taking it in. Especially when you are making conscious decisions there while reminding yourself that you are not in the physical world, telling yourself what to remember. Stopping spontaneously to touch things and pick up solid objects. Thinking: I wonder what that feels like? Feeling their weight, texture, temperature wetness, etc. Testing everything. And finding that everything is there, just like you know it. Leaves you shaking your head, just thinking to yourself, WOW WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT! How can I explain to anyone what I just did? But the experiences leave such a lasting impression, you think about them all the time, they are always somewhere in the back of my mind. It really changes your perspective on reality, I can't look at things the same way any more. I'm often thinking to myself, "I've experienced something that is absolutely beyond explanation, I've been to a completely different world." In a way, you feel kind of alone when talking to people who have never been there. I wish I could take people I know with me so they understand what I'm talking about.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Wow...just wow lol. That is incredible. You're right, I do find that hard to believe, but it definitely excites me even more to hear that. I can't imagine what a thrilling experience its going to be when I can finally get out of the body and start exploring. Thanks guys!

It's fine that your really excited now, but remember when it comes time to astral project you must be claim and relaxed. Especially if your near your body which will cause you to go right back into your physical body and wake up. So stay claim when practicing, and make it casual, especially while near your body. Perhaps like 20 feet, or so away from your body, but the farther the better.

I'm also an ex Christian BTW, I hope you will continue your research into astral projection, and other similar things on your spiritual path.

Peace.

[Aaron330]

It's truly unbelievable. There's really nothing dream-like about it really. Dreams are more like a vapor, a fuzzy memory. AP is a solid world, one you can walk around in and stamp your feet on the solid ground. There are 3 dimensions, sharp visuals, gravity. But the rules you know can also be broken. It has to be experienced to be believed, and even then it's hard to believe. You can say that it is as real as waking life which is true, but there are really no words to describe what it's like, other than to actually be there walking around in this other world, just taking it in. Especially when you are making conscious decisions there while reminding yourself that you are not in the physical world, telling yourself what to remember. Stopping spontaneously to touch things and pick up solid objects. Thinking: I wonder what that feels like? Feeling their weight, texture, temperature wetness, etc. Testing everything. And finding that everything is there, just like you know it. Leaves you shaking your head, just thinking to yourself, WOW WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT! How can I explain to anyone what I just did? But the experiences leave such a lasting impression, you think about them all the time, they are always somewhere in the back of my mind. It really changes your perspective on reality, I can't look at things the same way any more. I'm often thinking to myself, "I've experienced something that is absolutely beyond explanation, I've been to a completely different world." In a way, you feel kind of alone when talking to people who have never been there. I wish I could take people I know with me so they understand what I'm talking about.

wow...thank you so much for taking the time to explain that. I've really found this all too good to be true. When I was a Christian I would spend hours on my face crying out to God to reveal Himself to me in a tangible way, take me to a spiritual dimension, let me meet Jesus, etc. I have always been an extremely spiritual person and I LONG for a taste of what you talk about. That's why I find it hard to believe about AP. Because its everything I've always wanted but never thought I could ever experience. It is too good to be true. I am trying to be patient with this process as it is a difficult one, but I think I am going to go crazy after I have my first OBE. I will probably be an emotional wreck for the rest of the day lol. I cannot wait to experience these other dimensions, explore deep space, meet my guides/other entities. I still haven't figured out how this process is supposed to work that well yet, but I'm trying every single day until I get it. Thanks again for the descriptions!

[Aaron330]

It's fine that your really excited now, but remember when it comes time to astral project you must be claim and relaxed. Especially if your near your body which will cause you to go right back into your physical body and wake up. So stay claim when practicing, and make it casual, especially while near your body. Perhaps like 20 feet, or so away from your body, but the farther the better.

I'm also an ex Christian BTW, I hope you will continue your research into astral projection, and other similar things on your spiritual path.

Peace.

Thanks for the advice. Nice to meet another ex-Christian. I don't meet many of us lol. One of the first things I want to do when I learn to AP is actually to talk with Jesus Christ. Or the being who was once Jesus Christ of our world. I am fascinated by Him, His super-advanced consciousness for the primitive world he lived in. And most of all I want to know what His life was REALLY like. Alot has been written about Him in an attempt to make Him appear to be God and satisfy the Jewish atonement system. But the earliest writings of Him, ie gospel of Thomas, Mary, and synoptic gospels do not have any suggestion of these things. So I'd like to know if He was REALLY crucified, resurrected, etc. Maybe even get to see scenes from His real life. That would just be amazing to have some of these burning questions answered about my favorite human being who ever lived.

[deepspace]

Thanks for the advice. Nice to meet another ex-Christian. I don't meet many of us lol. One of the first things I want to do when I learn to AP is actually to talk with Jesus Christ. Or the being who was once Jesus Christ of our world. I am fascinated by Him, His super-advanced consciousness for the primitive world he lived in. And most of all I want to know what His life was REALLY like. Alot has been written about Him in an attempt to make Him appear to be God and satisfy the Jewish atonement system. But the earliest writings of Him, ie gospel of Thomas, Mary, and synoptic gospels do not have any suggestion of these things. So I'd like to know if He was REALLY crucified, resurrected, etc. Maybe even get to see scenes from His real life. That would just be amazing to have some of these burning questions answered about my favorite human being who ever lived.

I'm another ex-Christian. I recently got together with one of my friends from those days when I was really into it. We were in a weekly prayer group together, but hadn't seen each other for around 10 years. He had gotten even more into being a completely devoted Christian whereas for me, I have gone away from that belief system, and especially the fear, judgment, heaven/hell etc. I feel these beliefs are limiting to ones spiritual growth. And I can, for the first time, tell someone like him that I am no longer a Christian. It takes a lot of courage for me to do it, because there is still a little fear there.

My thinking is that people who have such strict belief systems will need to go somewhere that accommodates them in the afterlife. From my own point of view, when I was really into Christianity, there is absolutely no way I could have been able to handle what I've experienced in AP. It's already difficult for me to accept what I experience there sometimes, even without such a rigid belief system. It took me years to completely unwind my "investment" into the Christian belief system and there is no way I would have been ready back then for AP, especially with the fear of evil and demons, etc. that I had.

It's really best to go into the non-physical reality with nothing but a completely open mind, ready to just take in the experience and see the truth for yourself. And also work on overcoming as much of your fear as possible. You need to be flexible so you can bend and not break when your eyes get opened.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Thanks for the advice. Nice to meet another ex-Christian. I don't meet many of us lol. One of the first things I want to do when I learn to AP is actually to talk with Jesus Christ. Or the being who was once Jesus Christ of our world. I am fascinated by Him, His super-advanced consciousness for the primitive world he lived in. And most of all I want to know what His life was REALLY like. Alot has been written about Him in an attempt to make Him appear to be God and satisfy the Jewish atonement system. But the earliest writings of Him, ie gospel of Thomas, Mary, and synoptic gospels do not have any suggestion of these things. So I'd like to know if He was REALLY crucified, resurrected, etc. Maybe even get to see scenes from His real life. That would just be amazing to have some of these burning questions answered about my favorite human being who ever lived.

I'll be honest I've only astral projected twice for short times when I was sick some time ago. So I don't have much experience at all, but I have read a lot of stuff on astral projection through the years.

On another note your probably not going to find Jesus, and if you do he'll probably be just a projected entity from your subconscious. These are more common in the lower realms. You can try to tell if they are real or projected by talking to them in depth and see if they give truly unique and creative answers, but even if they do give unique and creative answers they still may be not real. There is no way to really tell sometimes. At least so I heard. Perhaps some of the advanced projectors can chime in. I hope that didn't discourage you. I have never heard of an astral projector that found Jesus. Perhaps if you run into a really advanced being, you can ask if they ever heard of Jesus, and see what kind of answer you get. But if you don't keep a neutral mind, since the answer can interpreted to fit your beliefs, especially if you have been very religious, and believing in the past. That is why you have to be very neutral. This is partially how we create our own reality. And it's also why meditation can be of help in learning to be neutral. And I now see that deepspace just commented, and talked about just going in neutral like I was saying.

I recommend you read this if you haven't already. It might take a while, but it is well worth the read. Frank talks about religion and astral projection in general.

The Frank Kepple Resource
http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html

Good luck Aaron on your spiritual journey.

[Aaron330]

I'll be honest I've only astral projected twice for short times when I was sick some time ago. So I don't have much experience at all, but I have read a lot of stuff on astral projection through the years.

On another note your probably not going to find Jesus, and if you do he'll probably be just a projected entity from your subconscious. These are more common in the lower realms. You can try to tell if they are real or projected by talking to them in depth and see if they give truly unique and creative answers, but even if they do give unique and creative answers they still may be not real. There is no way to really tell sometimes. At least so I heard. Perhaps some of the advanced projectors can chime in. I hope that didn't discourage you. I have never heard of an astral projector that found Jesus. Perhaps if you run into a really advanced being, you can ask if they ever heard of Jesus, and see what kind of answer you get. But if you don't keep a neutral mind, since the answer can interpreted to fit your beliefs, especially if you have been very religious, and believing in the past. That is why you have to be very neutral. This is partially how we create our own reality. And it's also why meditation can be of help in learning to be neutral. And I now see that deepspace just commented, and talked about just going in neutral like I was saying.

I recommend you read this if you haven't already. It might take a while, but it is well worth the read. Frank talks about religion and astral projection in general.

The Frank Kepple Resource
http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html

Good luck Aaron on your spiritual journey.

No that makes perfect sense, and I was actually wondering if that's what might happen. But I just figured since people meet all kinds of spirit guides and entities that AREN'T projections of their subconscious, it might be possible for me to actually find the Spirit of Jesus of Nazareth from the first century Israel. But I would probably be just as satisfied to have some answers from my spirit guides about him. They are, after all, my guides who would know everything about me and know how important these questions are. Maybe they've been researching it for me haha. I'll probably never give up until I find some answers for sure. The other reason I have hope I can meet him is because SO many people that have NDE's (as I've read on NDERF.org) meet Jesus when they die. This would be Focus 3 so I would assume that he wouldn't be a projection but probably the real deal who is meeting them there to help ease them into the afterlife, right? Just some thoughts.

And yes I actually spent about an hour reading Frank's Resource yesterday. I found it to be extremely helpful and insightful, and I couldn't put it down until I was done. Such a fantastic resource, I'll probably read it again and again.

[Aaron330]

I'm another ex-Christian. I recently got together with one of my friends from those days when I was really into it. We were in a weekly prayer group together, but hadn't seen each other for around 10 years. He had gotten even more into being a completely devoted Christian whereas for me, I have gone away from that belief system, and especially the fear, judgment, heaven/hell etc. I feel these beliefs are limiting to ones spiritual growth. And I can, for the first time, tell someone like him that I am no longer a Christian. It takes a lot of courage for me to do it, because there is still a little fear there.

My thinking is that people who have such strict belief systems will need to go somewhere that accommodates them in the afterlife. From my own point of view, when I was really into Christianity, there is absolutely no way I could have been able to handle what I've experienced in AP. It's already difficult for me to accept what I experience there sometimes, even without such a rigid belief system. It took me years to completely unwind my "investment" into the Christian belief system and there is no way I would have been ready back then for AP, especially with the fear of evil and demons, etc. that I had.

It's really best to go into the non-physical reality with nothing but a completely open mind, ready to just take in the experience and see the truth for yourself. And also work on overcoming as much of your fear as possible. You need to be flexible so you can bend and not break when your eyes get opened.

That is encouraging to hear, as I find myself in pretty much the same place. Only I've just come out of Christianity back in August of 2013, after 24 years of being a dedicated and devout Christian. So I am very new to all of this still and even though I am convinced almost everything about Christianity is false and warped, I still find myself missing it. I miss the comfort of it, the certainty of it, the familiarity of it. So I've wondered if certain things I might encounter in the Astral plane might shock me a bit. I do consider myself to having a completely open mind, in the sense that I'm not looking for anything specifically or for any belief to be confirmed, just to have the experience.

But out of curiosity, can you give me any examples of times you found it "difficult to accept what you experienced"?

[deepspace]

That is encouraging to hear, as I find myself in pretty much the same place. Only I've just come out of Christianity back in August of 2013, after 24 years of being a dedicated and devout Christian. So I am very new to all of this still and even though I am convinced almost everything about Christianity is false and warped, I still find myself missing it. I miss the comfort of it, the certainty of it, the familiarity of it. So I've wondered if certain things I might encounter in the Astral plane might shock me a bit. I do consider myself to having a completely open mind, in the sense that I'm not looking for anything specifically or for any belief to be confirmed, just to have the experience.

But out of curiosity, can you give me any examples of times you found it "difficult to accept what you experienced"?

What I find to hard accept in the Non-Physical doesn't really have anything to do with Christianity specifically, but with "belief" in general. My experiences in the Non-Physical have seriously challenged my belief in the Physical World. Belief in the Physical World is the biggest belief system of all. It's easy to look at the Physical World as this sort of absolute and concrete universe. It appears to be a completely separate entity with it's own set of fixed properties, dependable, predictable, etc. It's been taught to you all your life, you also make your own observations and develop a belief system based on that even though you don't realize it. Everyone else is doing it to so you have lots of reinforcement. But then you visit the Non-Physical and, if you can have the full experience, you find out that everything you have experienced in the physical can be replicated down to the smallest detail. After repeated visits there, you learn that you are not capable of detecting the difference. You experience that first-hand, not just listen to someone telling you that. This sets up a conflict between the reality you are experiencing and your Physical World belief system which you weren't aware that you had in the first place. You can no longer just accept that the Physical World is "real" in the way you thought. On the one hand, you start to experience an incredible freedom, one you can't even describe. On the other there is the loss of the familiar, the comfortable, the secure. I know for sure that I wasn't ready for this until recently, certainly not when I was a fundamentalist Christian.

I once knew a psychologist who talked about a concept he called the "map of reality". He explained how we create the map of reality which we use to navigate through our lives here. There is a cycle of constant evaluation and change that occurs. Often what triggers a change is what he called "life crisis" events. These are events that occur in your life that force you to "remake" your map of reality. This is kind of a more extreme example, but suppose you didn't believe in life after death. Then a relative that recently died shows up in front of you one day and talks to you. That forces you at a minimum to evaluate your map. You might just go into denial and not change your map. But of course that would become more difficult if these experiences continued to happen. It can make you confused and insecure at a minimum if you don't remake your map. This is why belief systems are detrimental. They make it hard for you to accept the reality you actually experience. Jesus talks about this in the parable of the wine and wine skins, it's right there in the bible.

So this is what I'm talking about when I say it's difficult to accept. We don't realize how much we have "invested" into our Physical World beliefs until they are seriously challenged.  My opinion is that the more you get through this now, the easier the transition will be when we leave this world and go into the next one. In reality, there is a inherent conflict between security and freedom. This is why it makes complete sense to me that in the next phase there will places set up for those who are not willing or able to give up their comfort and secure belief systems.

[Aaron330]

What I find to hard accept in the Non-Physical doesn't really have anything to do with Christianity specifically, but with "belief" in general. My experiences in the Non-Physical have seriously challenged my belief in the Physical World. Belief in the Physical World is the biggest belief system of all. It's easy to look at the Physical World as this sort of absolute and concrete universe. It appears to be a completely separate entity with it's own set of fixed properties, dependable, predictable, etc. It's been taught to you all your life, you also make your own observations and develop a belief system based on that even though you don't realize it. Everyone else is doing it to so you have lots of reinforcement. But then you visit the Non-Physical and, if you can have the full experience, you find out that everything you have experienced in the physical can be replicated down to the smallest detail. After repeated visits there, you learn that you are not capable of detecting the difference. You experience that first-hand, not just listen to someone telling you that. This sets up a conflict between the reality you are experiencing and your Physical World belief system which you weren't aware that you had in the first place. You can no longer just accept that the Physical World is "real" in the way you thought. On the one hand, you start to experience an incredible freedom, one you can't even describe. On the other there is the loss of the familiar, the comfortable, the secure. I know for sure that I wasn't ready for this until recently, certainly not when I was a fundamentalist Christian.

I once knew a psychologist who talked about a concept he called the "map of reality". He explained how we create the map of reality which we use to navigate through our lives here. There is a cycle of constant evaluation and change that occurs. Often what triggers a change is what he called "life crisis" events. These are events that occur in your life that force you to "remake" your map of reality. This is kind of a more extreme example, but suppose you didn't believe in life after death. Then a relative that recently died shows up in front of you one day and talks to you. That forces you at a minimum to evaluate your map. You might just go into denial and not change your map. But of course that would become more difficult if these experiences continued to happen. It can make you confused and insecure at a minimum if you don't remake your map. This is why belief systems are detrimental. They make it hard for you to accept the reality you actually experience. Jesus talks about this in the parable of the wine and wine skins, it's right there in the bible.

So this is what I'm talking about when I say it's difficult to accept. We don't realize how much we have "invested" into our Physical World beliefs until they are seriously challenged.  My opinion is that the more you get through this now, the easier the transition will be when we leave this world and go into the next one. In reality, there is a inherent conflict between security and freedom. This is why it makes complete sense to me that in the next phase there will places set up for those who are not willing or able to give up their comfort and secure belief systems.

Man that does make a lot of sense. I can definitely attest to having lived that way for a long time, letting my belief system keep me from accepting the reality I experienced. Although thankfully I was never a fundamentalist type Christian (railing against homosexuality, believe in an angry God, hell, rapture, etc). I always had problems with hell, the rapture and all the other weird doctrines Christianity teaches. I never believed in them but I didn't know what I DID believe in. Before I left Christianity I was actually working at a church as a full time worship pastor, and quit because I was so tired of hearing the "us vs them" way of thinking, hell, rapture, etc. I was losing my mind. I studied so much that I was able to prove to anyone beyond doubt that hell is never taught or mentioned in the Bible. It was really fun, and I still do it from time to time lol. Now I find the conversation boring and pointless. I got tired of arguing with fundamentalists and it started to really depress me. I saw how their fundamentalism was literally rotting their brain, inhibiting them from thinking critically or intelligently, impossible to see from ANY perspective other than their own, no capacity to understand true logic, etc.

This is a short summary of the last conversation I had on facebook with a fundy a few months ago:

me: But if you have openly admitted to me that you would never send any of your kids to an eternal torture chamber, no matter what kind of evil they had done, why would God? The Bible says His ways are HIGHER than our ways. And His mercy for us is higher than the heavens are above the earth. If you are able to just FORGIVE your child, why couldn't God?

Them: God's ways are higher than our ways means that we wouldn't torture our kids cuz we're selfish. God would because he's just.

Me: but just means "fair". Finite amount of sin= infinite punishment? That's not just. We throw people in jail for hurting their kids, whether or not the kids misbehaved. You're telling me that's righteous? We should let parents abuse their children?

Them: It's unrighteous when a person does it cuz they don't know the exact amount of punishment to inflict. God does. That's why its righteous when He does it.

Me: So in your opinion its righteous to punish a 15 year old girl, who only commits a few hundred sins in her short lifetime, for a hundred trillion years?

Them: If God does it, then it is just. So yes.

Me: Is there any chance you could be wrong about this belief? Are you open to the possibility of being wrong?

Them: No. It says so in God's Word.

Me: Actually it doesn't. You've been taught how to interpret certain passages. The Word hell wasn't even translated into the Bible until the 14th century by Martin Luther. It has been falsely mistranslated by fundamentalist translators to shove their agenda into the Bible. The only words the Bible has is 1)"Sheol" = the Grave  2) "Gehenna" = A valley on the west side of Jerusalem  3) Hades = the underworld of greek mythology ruled by the greek god Hades.

Them: No, I know that hell is real because my NIV Bible has the word hell in it over 25 times. The Bible also warns of false teachers like you arising in the last days, that even the very elect would be deceived. Well you won't deceive me, false prophet. I'm standing strong on the word of God!

Me: Ok, nevermind. Have a nice day.


So yea, I see your point as well about people like this need a special place to go when they die so they can slowly phase out of their dogma's and doctrines that they've built over their whole lives. It's just sad to me because I want to help these people out of these horrifying belief systems so that they can actually live a good life free of the fear, shame and guilt. But it just seems impossible sometimes. I've had success with 3 or 4 people actually but for 90% of them, there's no chance of ever having a real open conversation about anything they believe. I'm am thankful that the Universe brought me out of that religion though in the radical way that it did. I am forever grateful

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Man that does make a lot of sense. I can definitely attest to having lived that way for a long time, letting my belief system keep me from accepting the reality I experienced. Although thankfully I was never a fundamentalist type Christian (railing against homosexuality, believe in an angry God, hell, rapture, etc). I always had problems with hell, the rapture and all the other weird doctrines Christianity teaches. I never believed in them but I didn't know what I DID believe in. Before I left Christianity I was actually working at a church as a full time worship pastor, and quit because I was so tired of hearing the "us vs them" way of thinking, hell, rapture, etc. I was losing my mind. I studied so much that I was able to prove to anyone beyond doubt that hell is never taught or mentioned in the Bible. It was really fun, and I still do it from time to time lol. Now I find the conversation boring and pointless. I got tired of arguing with fundamentalists and it started to really depress me. I saw how their fundamentalism was literally rotting their brain, inhibiting them from thinking critically or intelligently, impossible to see from ANY perspective other than their own, no capacity to understand true logic, etc.

This is a short summary of the last conversation I had on facebook with a fundy a few months ago:

me: But if you have openly admitted to me that you would never send any of your kids to an eternal torture chamber, no matter what kind of evil they had done, why would God? The Bible says His ways are HIGHER than our ways. And His mercy for us is higher than the heavens are above the earth. If you are able to just FORGIVE your child, why couldn't God?

Them: God's ways are higher than our ways means that we wouldn't torture our kids cuz we're selfish. God would because he's just.

Me: but just means "fair". Finite amount of sin= infinite punishment? That's not just. We throw people in jail for hurting their kids, whether or not the kids misbehaved. You're telling me that's righteous? We should let parents abuse their children?

Them: It's unrighteous when a person does it cuz they don't know the exact amount of punishment to inflict. God does. That's why its righteous when He does it.

Me: So in your opinion its righteous to punish a 15 year old girl, who only commits a few hundred sins in her short lifetime, for a hundred trillion years?

Them: If God does it, then it is just. So yes.

Me: Is there any chance you could be wrong about this belief? Are you open to the possibility of being wrong?

Them: No. It says so in God's Word.

Me: Actually it doesn't. You've been taught how to interpret certain passages. The Word hell wasn't even translated into the Bible until the 14th century by Martin Luther. It has been falsely mistranslated by fundamentalist translators to shove their agenda into the Bible. The only words the Bible has is 1)"Sheol" = the Grave  2) "Gehenna" = A valley on the west side of Jerusalem  3) Hades = the underworld of greek mythology ruled by the greek god Hades.

Them: No, I know that hell is real because my NIV Bible has the word hell in it over 25 times. The Bible also warns of false teachers like you arising in the last days, that even the very elect would be deceived. Well you won't deceive me, false prophet. I'm standing strong on the word of God!

Me: Ok, nevermind. Have a nice day.


So yea, I see your point as well about people like this need a special place to go when they die so they can slowly phase out of their dogma's and doctrines that they've built over their whole lives. It's just sad to me because I want to help these people out of these horrifying belief systems so that they can actually live a good life free of the fear, shame and guilt. But it just seems impossible sometimes. I've had success with 3 or 4 people actually but for 90% of them, there's no chance of ever having a real open conversation about anything they believe. I'm am thankful that the Universe brought me out of that religion though in the radical way that it did. I am forever grateful

You sound like me. LOL Except I don't say never mind. LOL I am almost always on a higher level in talking to christains. I have pulled a Christian out of a fundamentalist church through talking with him online, though he wasn't so fundamentalist. I did it through talking to him and debating. And most of all showing him things he never knew before. I still plan on doing that some more, going back on Christian forums, and saving a few more people from the darkness of ignorance before I die. Don't worry I'm still young and have time.

We have to save people, and bring them into the kingdom of truth and reality, and save them from the darkness of ignorance.    caugh Whenever we can. caugh

[Aaron330]

You sound like me. LOL Except I don't say never mind. LOL I am almost always on a higher level in talking to christains. I have pulled a Christian out of a fundamentalist church through talking with him online, though he wasn't so fundamentalist. I did it through talking to him and debating. And most of all showing him things he never knew before. I still plan on doing that some more, going back on Christian forums, and saving a few more people from the darkness of ignorance before I die. Don't worry I'm still young and have time.

We have to save people, and bring them into the kingdom of truth and reality, and save them from the darkness of ignorance.    caugh Whenever we can. caugh

Hahaha!! I love it man, that cracks me up. Believe me, the skill of saying "ok nevermind" has been acquired after years of fierce debating. I try to take the road of peace and respect to show them which one of us has better "fruit" in that sense. But most of the time I can't keep myself from owning them in debates, because they just beg for it most of the time. Christians say some of the most ignorant things and its so easy to take apart their arguments because 1) They are built to ignore logic and only use the Bible 2) I have been a Christian all my life so I already know every argument they can make 3) I know the Bible better than most of them because I am a PK and went to Bible College.

So for those reasons it makes it extremely hard to resist a debate, but its never for the purpose of putting them down or "winning". It's for the sole purpose of getting them to question their dark, ignorant beliefs like you said. I want to set as many people free as possible. Luckily there are a growing number of people like you and I out there. We are watching the slow painful death of religion unfold a little more each year. As they lose more of their rights to be bigots, like we're seeing now with homosexuality, it starts to open more people's eyes to the truth and more people begin to step out of the religion and into spirituality.

Glad to meet someone else like me! Sometimes I feel like its me vs. the entire world of fundamentalism. So its good to know there are others out there "fighting the good fight" lol

[deepspace]

Man that does make a lot of sense. I can definitely attest to having lived that way for a long time, letting my belief system keep me from accepting the reality I experienced. Although thankfully I was never a fundamentalist type Christian (railing against homosexuality, believe in an angry God, hell, rapture, etc). I always had problems with hell, the rapture and all the other weird doctrines Christianity teaches. I never believed in them but I didn't know what I DID believe in.

I tried to believe in these things, because I was supposed to, but not sure I really did deep down. You try to make yourself believe it, but end up being conflicted. I was just thinking about it today. They were always saying things like "Well you can't trust your own judgement, but of course you can trust everything WE tell you and you don't question it! It's so easy, just swallow this belief system whole like a big pill. Everything you need is right in this book called the bible. It tells you exactly what to believe and think about everything. You don't have to think about anything!" 

Me: Is there any chance you could be wrong about this belief? Are you open to the possibility of being wrong?

Them: No. It says so in God's Word.

Was on a flight recently and had a conversation similar to this with a fundy Christian couple sitting next to me. We were talking about heaven and   
hell, etc. I told them that I thought Christians would have their own version of Heaven, which would basically closed off to anyone who hadn't chosen Jesus. And they could believe anything they wanted about other people going to hell, and just assume that if you didn't make it there, you went to the "Other" place. Of course they would never really know. I told them that I had also made the same choice they did to believe in Jesus, so unless they believed you could lose your salvation, I could also show up there if I wanted. The woman said with a sad face, "But don't you want to go to our heaven?" "No" I answered, "Not really" Then I asked them. What if someone said to you "What you are believing is not true, come and I can will show you. Would you listen to them?" And they said no they wouldn't. Because they already know the truth and it's in the bible. Very sad. Made me so glad I was not into that any more.

[Aaron330]

I tried to believe in these things, because I was supposed to, but not sure I really did deep down. You try to make yourself believe it, but end up being conflicted. I was just thinking about it today. They were always saying things like "Well you can't trust your own judgement, but of course you can trust everything WE tell you and you don't question it! It's so easy, just swallow this belief system whole like a big pill. Everything you need is right in this book called the bible. It tells you exactly what to believe and think about everything. You don't have to think about anything!"  

Was on a flight recently and had a conversation similar to this with a fundy Christian couple sitting next to me. We were talking about heaven and  
hell, etc. I told them that I thought Christians would have their own version of Heaven, which would basically closed off to anyone who hadn't chosen Jesus. And they could believe anything they wanted about other people going to hell, and just assume that if you didn't make it there, you went to the "Other" place. Of course they would never really know. I told them that I had also made the same choice they did to believe in Jesus, so unless they believed you could lose your salvation, I could also show up there if I wanted. The woman said with a sad face, "But don't you want to go to our heaven?" "No" I answered, "Not really" Then I asked them. What if someone said to you "What you are believing is not true, come and I can will show you. Would you listen to them?" And they said no they wouldn't. Because they already know the truth and it's in the bible. Very sad. Made me so glad I was not into that any more.

Yikes, that must have been an uncomfortable conversation lol. At least for me it would be, I get so uneasy around fundy's because I know how judgmental and critical they are. But I love that you told them "no, not really" LOL that probably shocked them. But that's exactly what I tell people, "Your idea of heaven is a sick, twisted place full of people who are perfectly happy that billions of people are suffering unimaginable, ineffable torment forever. And this angry egomaniac of a God is expecting a constant stream of compliments (praise & worship) from everything from people, angels, to the blades of grass. He's an insecure sadistic tyrant with some serious anger management issues and I imagine Jesus would be leading a protest against Him to get all those poor people out of hell and just forgive them already. Your version of heaven is for mentally disturbed people".

I also love how you worded that first paragraph. Perfect description. I was forcefed all those answers although none of them ever sat right with me and I had tons of questions I would always be asking in youth group, and they were only ok with me asking those questions as long as I arrived at the answers that they approved of. And I usually didn't. Looking back I can't believe it took me 24 years to come out of it, but I guess it shows you the power of brainwashing that a community like Christianity and Church can have on people's psyche's.

It's funny to me that the church who claims to have all the answers doesn't allow for difficult questions to be asked lol.

[deepspace]

Yikes, that must have been an uncomfortable conversation lol. At least for me it would be, I get so uneasy around fundy's because I know how judgmental and critical they are. But I love that you told them "no, not really" LOL that probably shocked them.

I was a little nervous, but fairly confident mainly because I have really thought about it a lot. It's taken me many years to deprogram myself. The fear of judgment and hell really slowed down my ability to change. But getting back to the Christian heaven, talking to them made me think about it even more. With all the fear when I was into Christianity, especially about demons, evil, etc. the Christian heaven would have probably been the only place I could go and feel safe. I would expect a mono-culture there of like minded entities so no chance for any negative influences. But then they have to stay within the confines of this construct and probably would be too afraid to venture out beyond it for fear of the evil spirits lurking beyond it's borders. And everyone there would be reinforcing that idea, no dissenters. I would imagine getting out of it at that point would be pretty difficult. So there's the trade-off. They have security and safety, but they are not really free.

So I was really prepared to answer her question and explained why I wouldn't go there, although I should be able to. But this is why we really need to work through our fears in this life. Speaking from my own experience, fear is what drives a lot of people to give up their freedom and become slaves of one kind or another.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Hahaha!! I love it man, that cracks me up. Believe me, the skill of saying "ok nevermind" has been acquired after years of fierce debating. I try to take the road of peace and respect to show them which one of us has better "fruit" in that sense. But most of the time I can't keep myself from owning them in debates, because they just beg for it most of the time. Christians say some of the most ignorant things and its so easy to take apart their arguments because 1) They are built to ignore logic and only use the Bible 2) I have been a Christian all my life so I already know every argument they can make 3) I know the Bible better than most of them because I am a PK and went to Bible College.

Heck if you went to bible college then you might be better at it than me. But I have been studying the other side a lot more I am sure.

So for those reasons it makes it extremely hard to resist a debate, but its never for the purpose of putting them down or "winning". It's for the sole purpose of getting them to question their dark, ignorant beliefs like you said.

Yeah, I agree.

Sometimes I feel like its me vs. the entire world of fundamentalism.

Don't worry we have the light of reality, and truth on our side. And so it doesn't matter in the long run, since this truth and reality will eat their religion away from the inside out in time; starting with the light of science, which will pave the way for people to let go of limiting beliefs.

I suggest that you take a break from it, but if you can go back and help some more, do it. I had to take a break from the debating, since it does seem to have a negative effect if it's overly done.

I'm glad you find some comfort in knowing your not alone, as I do to.

It's taken me many years to deprogram myself. The fear of judgment and hell really slowed down my ability to change. But getting back to the Christian heaven, talking to them made me think about it even more. With all the fear when I was into Christianity, especially about demons, evil, etc. the Christian heaven would have probably been the only place I could go and feel safe.

I felt the same way for the longest especially since my parents used corporeal punishment and they didn't let me watch hardly any TV when I was young up until maybe 10 years old or more. Though we did watch the news, and sometimes things like sesame street, and kids shows. We didn't listen to music unless it was Christian. Expect they let us get by with listening to classical. They told us things like science were for secular people, and going to college was for secular people, and maybe some types of Christian gains can go to college, but not for us. Even though my mom went to college. Yeah it was terrible. We believed there was going to be a war in here in America for the longest. We even stored up food. LOL They were terribly out of touch with reality, since my dad depended on dreams from God for guidance, and the husband was always right over the wife according to their translation of the bible. It was like in a cult, probably worse than what you guys had. Luckily they stopped being so strict, and us kids got the freedom to a degree to have friends and go outside a lot, and eventually watch cable TV. So yeah their strict beliefs along with this this idea that we were the chosen ones, and we had to separated from the rest of the world was really far out there. And it took years of a terrible health condition, and my dad to die, before I finally snap out of it. The odd thing was my health condition was partially brought on by my own delusional beliefs and actions. Such as not seeing a doctor right away, believing I was strong and God would protect me. And even once I was messed up, that God was going to heal me. Which never happened. The doctors, and I healed myself. I'll just say that I lost a ton of weight over a couple of years, and lost a lot of strength in my body, especially my right foot. My progress has been very slow. So at least for me, my christian beliefs have caused more problems than helped IMO. It's been tough on me.

Luckily I am doing better mostly with my beliefs. I had actually believed in reincarnation even as a Christian years ago, along with NDE's. But I didn't grow with it. Jesus clearly says for instance that John the baptist is Elijah who was to come. And that was backed up by the angel, and an OT prophesy.

Peace.