Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: The AlphaOmega on March 18, 2004, 18:13:52
Post by: The AlphaOmega on March 18, 2004, 18:13:52
Ever APed? You'll know!
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: patpj119 on March 18, 2004, 18:52:47
Post by: patpj119 on March 18, 2004, 18:52:47
No I have yet to AP, but cannot wait to! I hope beyond hope that we have souls and that we survive physical death but I can't help but wonder if this is a miraculous concoction of the brain. How real are AP's? Are they surreal at all? I have lucid dreamed many times and find this environment surreal and obviously a child of the brain.
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Risu no Kairu on March 18, 2004, 19:07:16
Post by: Risu no Kairu on March 18, 2004, 19:07:16
Tuh. What's it matter if they are?
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Patrik on March 18, 2004, 20:00:46
Post by: Patrik on March 18, 2004, 20:00:46
Risu,
I think it matters a lot, people who have OBEs tend to change, having an OBE can change a persons entire beliefsystem. Sure, even if it is not real it's still a fun thing to learn and so. But to realize the reality will change a person. If I get a teaching from a spiritual being, I would very much like to know if I am just talking to myself, or a real spiritual being.
If we have a soul or not is in my oppinion of major importance. If we do have a soul, I can evolve spiritually and think beyond this life. If we do not have a soul, there is not much importance to life at all... If we would to live 80 years and then die, those 80 years would be of no importance, and no point in existing.
Death used to be my largest fear, having had OBEs it all changed.
If not real, APs would still be fun in a virtual-reality kind of way. But if real (which I am convinced it is after experiencing it) the possibilities are limitless.
I think it matters a lot, people who have OBEs tend to change, having an OBE can change a persons entire beliefsystem. Sure, even if it is not real it's still a fun thing to learn and so. But to realize the reality will change a person. If I get a teaching from a spiritual being, I would very much like to know if I am just talking to myself, or a real spiritual being.
If we have a soul or not is in my oppinion of major importance. If we do have a soul, I can evolve spiritually and think beyond this life. If we do not have a soul, there is not much importance to life at all... If we would to live 80 years and then die, those 80 years would be of no importance, and no point in existing.
Death used to be my largest fear, having had OBEs it all changed.
If not real, APs would still be fun in a virtual-reality kind of way. But if real (which I am convinced it is after experiencing it) the possibilities are limitless.
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Palehorse on March 18, 2004, 21:14:05
Post by: Palehorse on March 18, 2004, 21:14:05
I agree with Patrick about it being important (to me anyway) to figure out what the nature of this experience is. One of the main reasons that drew me to the possibility of AP was the idea of verifying whether or not we are more than our physical bodies. Of course, if AP is nothing more than a realistic lucid dream that takes place completely within one's mind, then that's all a moot point.
Additionally, if I ever manage to AP myself, some of the first things I want to do are in the RTZ, mostly having to do with certain people that I'd like to visit for various reasons. One of them is a very good friend who currently lives several thousand miles away, and we were both intrigued by the possibility of being able to visit without having to buy a plane ticket. Again, if all AP can give me is a realistic simulation of visiting her in my own imagination without any verifiable shared experience, then I'm wasting my time.
So, while there are a lot of things you can hypothetically do with AP that are useful regardless of whether the experience is internal or external of the body, there are also a lot of things that kinda depend on it being external.
I'm very much encouraged by the many stories of shared experiences, and they've done a lot as far as motivating me to explore this... but I'm the sort of person who can't take anyone's word for it until it happens to me personally. And so the quest continues...
Additionally, if I ever manage to AP myself, some of the first things I want to do are in the RTZ, mostly having to do with certain people that I'd like to visit for various reasons. One of them is a very good friend who currently lives several thousand miles away, and we were both intrigued by the possibility of being able to visit without having to buy a plane ticket. Again, if all AP can give me is a realistic simulation of visiting her in my own imagination without any verifiable shared experience, then I'm wasting my time.
So, while there are a lot of things you can hypothetically do with AP that are useful regardless of whether the experience is internal or external of the body, there are also a lot of things that kinda depend on it being external.
I'm very much encouraged by the many stories of shared experiences, and they've done a lot as far as motivating me to explore this... but I'm the sort of person who can't take anyone's word for it until it happens to me personally. And so the quest continues...
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Renaisance on March 19, 2004, 01:02:12
Post by: Renaisance on March 19, 2004, 01:02:12
to patric: I think that the belief that our lives are meaningless (whether we have a soul or not) is a very limited veiw. Sure if we have a soul then somehow we fit into some grand process but is it true that if this is a one shot chance that it will all be for naught? So if we don't have a soul does it mean that it was all meaningless. Simply because we are not as we wish: for all intesive purposes imortal?
I don't think this is the case I think that the meaning although seemingly smaller is so much grander when you take eternity and god out of the picture. If you can live a fulfilled and happy life. Then what more meaning do you need? The meaning and purpose belongs only to you and the fortunate people you have touched throughout your lifetime. The only other meaning necesary is one to soothe a fear of death and by death I mean the final and forever sort.
Just my opinion though
Renaisance
I don't think this is the case I think that the meaning although seemingly smaller is so much grander when you take eternity and god out of the picture. If you can live a fulfilled and happy life. Then what more meaning do you need? The meaning and purpose belongs only to you and the fortunate people you have touched throughout your lifetime. The only other meaning necesary is one to soothe a fear of death and by death I mean the final and forever sort.
Just my opinion though
Renaisance
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: LogoRat on March 19, 2004, 01:04:54
Post by: LogoRat on March 19, 2004, 01:04:54
How do you know what you experience right now is real or not?!
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Palehorse on March 19, 2004, 01:27:34
Post by: Palehorse on March 19, 2004, 01:27:34
quote:
Originally posted by LogoRat
How do you know what you experience right now is real or not?!
Strictly speaking, I don't. I used to wonder about this as a kid -- whether this thing I considered "reality" was just an elaborate hoax that had been built up around me, whether I was the only true consciousness that existed, whether I could even be sure of that, etc. I was a weird little kid, man. Still am, really.
Yeah, so I could just be a brain in a jar somewhere being stimulated by electrodes, or some deity's bad dream; the possibilities are endless. The thing is, I've never had any reason to believe my senses are decieving me, and I'm constantly given further reinforcement by everyone else who is in general agreement about what the world is like and how it works. So, it seems that it is in my best interest to live life as if what I'm percieving is true for the most part -- because after all, if you can't trust your own five senses, then what's left? Granted, I'm open to alternate possibilities (astral projection included), but so far I haven't experienced anything like that for myself yet. That means, for the time being, the score is physical life: 1, alternate reality: 0. I'm in the process of trying to change that (which is why I'm here, of course) but the jury is still out, and it remains to be seen whether I'll have any luck.
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: sain on March 19, 2004, 05:58:25
Post by: sain on March 19, 2004, 05:58:25
I've heard of a way to prove it as real, but I don't know if it actually works.
A friend told me that sometimes people will project in a group, and then make up a "secret word" while projecting. When they come back to their bodies, they write down the word and compare. She told me this because I was wondering the same thing.
Just thought this might be interesting.
A friend told me that sometimes people will project in a group, and then make up a "secret word" while projecting. When they come back to their bodies, they write down the word and compare. She told me this because I was wondering the same thing.
Just thought this might be interesting.
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Patrik on March 19, 2004, 07:42:35
Post by: Patrik on March 19, 2004, 07:42:35
Renaisance,
I have always believed in what I said, long before knowing what AP was, not knowing there was something beyond this life, and not beliving in a god etc.
As long as we exist, we think, exist and do. If we live 80 years of happyness and then die, and there is nothing. Then those 80 years, in my oppinion could as well not have existed at all. I am now not speaking of some larger meaning to life, touching people, changing the world etc. But if we live a lifetime of joy, die and no longer exist. Then there is no "blackness", no "eternal sleep" we simply do not exist. And if we do not exist, everything done while existing will be of no importance (from that persons point of view).
Sure one can say he had a family who praise him etc. But if one does not exist, that is of no importance.
Therefor, if end of life is to stop existing, and everything done in life will be pointless from that point of view from that moment forward. Then in my oppinion, living now is useless and no point. Sure we can have fun etc in the happyness of ignorance. But as soon as the point of death comes, it will all be like it never happened at all. Only the people left behind will remember. But since you are not them, nor feel through them, that is also pointless.
This is just my oppinion, everyone has right to theirs. But for me, knowing life is not the end (and saying death is blackness is not the same as saying not existing) is of major importance.
I have always believed in what I said, long before knowing what AP was, not knowing there was something beyond this life, and not beliving in a god etc.
As long as we exist, we think, exist and do. If we live 80 years of happyness and then die, and there is nothing. Then those 80 years, in my oppinion could as well not have existed at all. I am now not speaking of some larger meaning to life, touching people, changing the world etc. But if we live a lifetime of joy, die and no longer exist. Then there is no "blackness", no "eternal sleep" we simply do not exist. And if we do not exist, everything done while existing will be of no importance (from that persons point of view).
Sure one can say he had a family who praise him etc. But if one does not exist, that is of no importance.
Therefor, if end of life is to stop existing, and everything done in life will be pointless from that point of view from that moment forward. Then in my oppinion, living now is useless and no point. Sure we can have fun etc in the happyness of ignorance. But as soon as the point of death comes, it will all be like it never happened at all. Only the people left behind will remember. But since you are not them, nor feel through them, that is also pointless.
This is just my oppinion, everyone has right to theirs. But for me, knowing life is not the end (and saying death is blackness is not the same as saying not existing) is of major importance.
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Patrik on March 19, 2004, 07:44:14
Post by: Patrik on March 19, 2004, 07:44:14
Palehorse,
I used to think the exact same thing when I was a kid (i.e. less than 8 years old or so). I had almost forgotten about that. But I used to wonder if I was the only normal person, everyone else seemd like puppets. I used to wonder if it was fictional, a place I was put into. How could I really know everyone else was real etc.
This was a looong time ago, so it's hard to remember exactly everything I thought. But I too had a lot of thoughts like that.
I used to think the exact same thing when I was a kid (i.e. less than 8 years old or so). I had almost forgotten about that. But I used to wonder if I was the only normal person, everyone else seemd like puppets. I used to wonder if it was fictional, a place I was put into. How could I really know everyone else was real etc.
This was a looong time ago, so it's hard to remember exactly everything I thought. But I too had a lot of thoughts like that.
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Soulfire on March 19, 2004, 10:36:46
Post by: Soulfire on March 19, 2004, 10:36:46
Hi,
Everything is "real". If you have a dream that you have a huge fight with someone you love, it is a perception of something very real. The fight itself may not come to pass in physical "reality", but the fight represents one or more real beliefs in your mind that are having a definate "real" effect on your life. Even having a "real" fight is no different. The fight itself is just a reflection of beliefs held by each involved person. For that fight (real or dream) to actually become meaningful, you have to be willing to look honestly and deeply inside yourself to see the "real value".
Maybe it would be more accurate to say that everything we perceive is a reflection of something real. It is up to us to find the "reality" that our perceptions represent.
--Soulfire
Everything is "real". If you have a dream that you have a huge fight with someone you love, it is a perception of something very real. The fight itself may not come to pass in physical "reality", but the fight represents one or more real beliefs in your mind that are having a definate "real" effect on your life. Even having a "real" fight is no different. The fight itself is just a reflection of beliefs held by each involved person. For that fight (real or dream) to actually become meaningful, you have to be willing to look honestly and deeply inside yourself to see the "real value".
Maybe it would be more accurate to say that everything we perceive is a reflection of something real. It is up to us to find the "reality" that our perceptions represent.
--Soulfire
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Renaisance on March 19, 2004, 11:36:03
Post by: Renaisance on March 19, 2004, 11:36:03
hey patric, thats cool if that's what you believe. However nothing is forever and therefor neither are we so whether we die now or one hundred thousand years from now (in the forever and always way) will make no difference. The meaning is now the purpose is now. Of course when we are completely gone it's no longer going to matter to us. That's a given because we no longer exist! That doesn't mean that life can't be meaningful now.
If your constantly living in the future you are never truly living for you are living in a construct of your imagination rather than the moment at hand.
Renaisance
If your constantly living in the future you are never truly living for you are living in a construct of your imagination rather than the moment at hand.
Renaisance
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Patrik on March 19, 2004, 12:49:38
Post by: Patrik on March 19, 2004, 12:49:38
Renaisance,
Well that depends on your viewpoint... "nothing lasts forever" is a physical expression. The concept of "eternity" is beyond our comprehension. "Time" is made up by men in order to describe change. The higher dimensions and astral levels are not effected by physical time and change, and therefor "lasts forever".
I think discussing eternity is pointless, since we can't comprehend it anyway. But I don't think one can say "nothing lasts forever" when noone can really understand "forever".
Well that depends on your viewpoint... "nothing lasts forever" is a physical expression. The concept of "eternity" is beyond our comprehension. "Time" is made up by men in order to describe change. The higher dimensions and astral levels are not effected by physical time and change, and therefor "lasts forever".
I think discussing eternity is pointless, since we can't comprehend it anyway. But I don't think one can say "nothing lasts forever" when noone can really understand "forever".
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: aissy on March 19, 2004, 16:09:20
Post by: aissy on March 19, 2004, 16:09:20
Can anyone remember a time that they didn't exist? Is anyone able to recall the moment in time that they were created? This may seem somewhat far fetched, but I feel like I have always been...therefore, I'm lead to believe that I'll never die(apart from physical death)...feels kind of like a test, this game of life on Earth--for some grandeur purpose--but I must admit that I can't comprehend exactly why we were created. Reality to me is a feeling, an emotion, a knowing, rather than something touched, smelled, tasted, heard, or seen. Biologists say that snakes see infrared objects as their reality while bat's perceive their reality by bouncing sonic sound waves everywhere in order to know what's in front or beside them.
Just some food for thought.............aissy
Just some food for thought.............aissy
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Consumed_Crustacean on March 19, 2004, 16:25:30
Post by: Consumed_Crustacean on March 19, 2004, 16:25:30
That is pretty thoughtful there aissy. I don't exactly know how to respond to it other than that.
As for the legitimacy of astral projections, I can only speak from my personal experience. I experienced the vibrations one day just by a stray thought about "OBE" in a lucid dream, and that was really really wacky and though provoking. I never believed that OBE's were real, or any more than a weird dream (so it wasn't a matter of affirmation of a belief manifesting itself). I even did not want them to happen, and tried to little avail to stop them when they did. Yet after having felt them they seem to follow the explanation most other people have given.
This whole phenomena has to be something, and I'd be just as content learning that people who can project have learned to overload their brain cells and cause them to go bonkers as I would to discover that it really is proof of the soul, life after death, etc. I just want to know.
(Have any studies with a newish real-time brain activity imaging thingie been done on astral projectors?)
As for the legitimacy of astral projections, I can only speak from my personal experience. I experienced the vibrations one day just by a stray thought about "OBE" in a lucid dream, and that was really really wacky and though provoking. I never believed that OBE's were real, or any more than a weird dream (so it wasn't a matter of affirmation of a belief manifesting itself). I even did not want them to happen, and tried to little avail to stop them when they did. Yet after having felt them they seem to follow the explanation most other people have given.
This whole phenomena has to be something, and I'd be just as content learning that people who can project have learned to overload their brain cells and cause them to go bonkers as I would to discover that it really is proof of the soul, life after death, etc. I just want to know.
(Have any studies with a newish real-time brain activity imaging thingie been done on astral projectors?)
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: LogoRat on March 20, 2004, 03:05:45
Post by: LogoRat on March 20, 2004, 03:05:45
You can only proove to yourself that it is real.
Why?
Well, because nomatter how much evidence you show someone, he will still not believe it was real.. he would think "it is probably something else".
Why you think that it might be imagination and illusion and "only dream" is because you have beeen raised in a society where they only make you believe that this is the only reality.
So you question everything that is not this reality.
Im not saying that question stuff is bad, im just saying that you have this trigger that goes on and you automaticly say to yourself "this is fake" even tho you have not come up with that idea in the first place, it was there in the background to jump in when you think about stuff like OBE etc.
My last trip i had to the astral made me feel like i had been existing for over >30000000000000xxx years.
It felt like ive been existing for ALOT longer than the entire planet have been and beyond.
Why?
Well, because nomatter how much evidence you show someone, he will still not believe it was real.. he would think "it is probably something else".
Why you think that it might be imagination and illusion and "only dream" is because you have beeen raised in a society where they only make you believe that this is the only reality.
So you question everything that is not this reality.
Im not saying that question stuff is bad, im just saying that you have this trigger that goes on and you automaticly say to yourself "this is fake" even tho you have not come up with that idea in the first place, it was there in the background to jump in when you think about stuff like OBE etc.
My last trip i had to the astral made me feel like i had been existing for over >30000000000000xxx years.
It felt like ive been existing for ALOT longer than the entire planet have been and beyond.
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Tombo on March 20, 2004, 05:33:37
Post by: Tombo on March 20, 2004, 05:33:37
I started I thread sometime ago called "Proof" it has 6 pages of answers. It may contain some useful infos for you. I would suggest you search for it via the search engine and read it.
Tom
Tom
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Amber on March 20, 2004, 15:13:50
Post by: Amber on March 20, 2004, 15:13:50
The mind is a powerful thing, but even if this is an incredible hallucination...well that's a discovery in and of itself.
And what if this whole life is a hallucination? It starts to get really confusing to me...lol
Well, I was one of those people who had no intentions of projecting or having OBE's. I just started doing energy work on my own for health and obvious benefits, when I woke up one day completely out of my body in real time and wandered around my apartment for a long time. I even went into my roommate's bedroom and stood there listening to her alarm clock going off and her moving around in bed, even though I was really sleeping in the next room. It was something that couldn't have happened, not even by stretch of the imagination if this were just a wild hallucination.
So, I guess the answer is to find out for yourself. Go find out! Prove it wrong or prove it right!
with affection,
Amber
And what if this whole life is a hallucination? It starts to get really confusing to me...lol
Well, I was one of those people who had no intentions of projecting or having OBE's. I just started doing energy work on my own for health and obvious benefits, when I woke up one day completely out of my body in real time and wandered around my apartment for a long time. I even went into my roommate's bedroom and stood there listening to her alarm clock going off and her moving around in bed, even though I was really sleeping in the next room. It was something that couldn't have happened, not even by stretch of the imagination if this were just a wild hallucination.
So, I guess the answer is to find out for yourself. Go find out! Prove it wrong or prove it right!
with affection,
Amber
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: __--nezabaleta--__ on March 20, 2004, 16:50:41
Post by: __--nezabaleta--__ on March 20, 2004, 16:50:41
Dear PATPJ119,
You are playing with the MATRIX concept, don't you..? MATRIX concept, I must quote is that of the "The MATRIX" Picture (see at www.whatisthematrix.com website). Then there are as many as realities as minds are in the universe. But the universe you senses isn't the real universe. It's only a computer creation where you play a role interacting with others minds created by such a computer.
In another frame of ideas (pushing apart the apocalyptic conception of THE MATRIX) I think that if I (the really "I") am a point of conciousness, then the whole universe is to myself as the entire desk surface is respect to one point of it. In certain sense, I am the point through universe looks at himself, the point through the universe takes concious of himself. One point between billions of billions of others (only if I'm not alone).
Now, think, if noone mind exists, then you are GOD, and the other are creations of your mind. Then, if you don't are GOD, a least one mind must to exist.
It's very hard to post my thinking in a post like this. In a few days (perhaps tomorrow) I will post the total idea, what have its basis on the cristian concept of creation.
Sincerely...
NEZabaleta
You are playing with the MATRIX concept, don't you..? MATRIX concept, I must quote is that of the "The MATRIX" Picture (see at www.whatisthematrix.com website). Then there are as many as realities as minds are in the universe. But the universe you senses isn't the real universe. It's only a computer creation where you play a role interacting with others minds created by such a computer.
In another frame of ideas (pushing apart the apocalyptic conception of THE MATRIX) I think that if I (the really "I") am a point of conciousness, then the whole universe is to myself as the entire desk surface is respect to one point of it. In certain sense, I am the point through universe looks at himself, the point through the universe takes concious of himself. One point between billions of billions of others (only if I'm not alone).
Now, think, if noone mind exists, then you are GOD, and the other are creations of your mind. Then, if you don't are GOD, a least one mind must to exist.
It's very hard to post my thinking in a post like this. In a few days (perhaps tomorrow) I will post the total idea, what have its basis on the cristian concept of creation.
Sincerely...
NEZabaleta
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: Reality on March 21, 2004, 07:00:05
Post by: Reality on March 21, 2004, 07:00:05
www.thiaoouba.com, has all the answers. Read the e-book: the thiaoouba prophecy.
Whether you decide it's true or not is up to you. And if not....it's a good read anyway!
Oh and I am in no way involved with that site, it just a tip.
Whether you decide it's true or not is up to you. And if not....it's a good read anyway!
Oh and I am in no way involved with that site, it just a tip.
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: findtruth on March 22, 2004, 05:48:48
Post by: findtruth on March 22, 2004, 05:48:48
The other day, I was thinking the same thing. You know what if it isn't real, or anything like it for that matter. Then I thought, since I believe it to be real. I'm either right, or I'm insane. As far as I'm concerned, either way is better than not having any psychic experiences at all.
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: sain on March 22, 2004, 05:53:26
Post by: sain on March 22, 2004, 05:53:26
I have to agree LogoRat, in that you have to prove it yourself, or you won't believe. I haven't as yet been able to project or OOBE, but I still have faith that once I do I will be able to tell that it is real because it will have things I have never seen or imaginioned. Sceptics might say that my brain just makes this up, but if that is so, I would remember it once having seen it. So my way to prove it will be to get to the astral eventually and see if there are things I have never seen before. [:D]
Title: How do we know this is not in our heads?
Post by: patpj119 on March 18, 2004, 18:06:30
Post by: patpj119 on March 18, 2004, 18:06:30
honestly now, how do we know aping is just not an elaborate hallucination? the brain is very powerful...how can we be sure we even have souls...or survive physically death for that matter?