Is Morality a Requirement for Projecting?

[Permanently Grounded]

One of the main differences I notice between the astral projectors of today vs those of yesteryear is that previously OOBE's were traditionally considered to be an achievement earned only after many, many years of spiritual work & progress. Hence in Hinduism for example great emphasis was traditionally placed on practicing personal cleanliness, adherence to non-violence, developing respect for all forms of life, practicing chastity, exercising only truthful speech, etc.

Nowadays I see NONE of this foundational moral work being mentioned in any modern-day forums that pertain to OOBE's. In fact, most seem to treat the topic of having an OOBE as being something as easy to achieve -with regular practice- as throwing a good curve ball! Even if those who claim to be projecting on a regular basis are doing so because they already naturally adhere to and practice these basic moral concepts, why isn't morality ever mentioned when discussing the ability to have OOBE's?

Did I miss something in the translation from then to now? Could all those antique cultures have been so wrong for so many centuries? Is morality a necessary prerequisite for having an OOBE or isn't it?

[Xanth]

Could all those antique cultures have been so wrong for so many centuries?

Pretty much, yes. 
It's nothing mystical, magical or even "paranormal"... it's a perfectly normal and natural way to exist.  It's who and what you are.

You *ARE* consciousness... you're projecting this very second to experience this physical reality. 
To experience any other reality is simply an extension of the very nature that you are.

Is morality a necessary prerequisite for having an OOBE or isn't it?

Not in the slightest.  An utterly evil and despicable individual can project just as easily as any other person... what will differ is WHAT they experience.

Someone focused on "Love" will experience such.
Someone focused on "Fear" will experience such.

One grows you, the other will stagnant you.

EDIT: I also wanted to point out that the above is also how this physical reality works, because this is just another of the infinite non-physical realities "out" there.
If you focus on Love, your physical reality will be more Loving. 
If you focus on Fear, your physical reality will be more Fearing.

[Stillwater]

Could all those antique cultures have been so wrong for so many centuries?

If you really get down to it, there is almost nothing they were right about. There are only a handful that were right about some things part of the time (Egyptians and Greeks were exceptionally good at math, and their mathematical reasoning and proofs still hold up, for example). There is a lot of simple wisdom in those texts, but you just can't take the metaphysical claims at face value. They weren't playing with the full deck. Hell, we aren't playing with the full deck yet. Ancient cultures were at their best when they were thinking with science and logic. That is not to say that only logic is valid, of course (far, far from it), but when you get into speculations about how the world actually works... don't think being from 4000 years ago makes you better at it.

Honor the ancients for their incredible accomplishments, and read their poetry and mysticism. Don't delegate your reasoning to them.

[TheBlade123]

Could all those antique cultures have been so wrong for so many centuries? Is morality a necessary prerequisite for having an OOBE or isn't it?

When I first started on the topic I came across the need to meditate and going through several other 'long' phases, and as you said they do talk about the morality of it; without success by the way. I do feel I am a moral person but I like short cuts, so from just watching a couple of 10 minute clips from youtube I was able in project within a week. But I feel so long as you are in the correct frame of mind you will have a truly amazing experience, so I agree with Xanth.

When it comes down to the morality of it; unfortunately I feel confident I could teach the same techniques to 'anyone'.

[Permanently Grounded]

When I first started on the topic I came across the need to meditate and going through several other 'long' phases, and as you said they do talk about the morality of it; without success by the way. I do feel I am a moral person but I like short cuts, so from just watching a couple of 10 minute clips from youtube I was able in project within a week. But I feel so long as you are in the correct frame of mind you will have a truly amazing experience, so I agree with Xanth.

When it comes down to the morality of it; unfortunately I feel confident I could teach the same techniques to 'anyone'.

OK. Teach me then!

[Szaxx]

If you are not a moral person at all its most likely your experiences will reflect this. I've had many experiences when much younger and my mindset present at that time certainly reflected itself in the experiences.
Xanth's comment on WHAT you experience is valid. I'm sure some here will have experienced this fruitfully in their experiences on a 'bad day'.
I have found it better to sleep it off. You may not like the results otherwise...

[TheBlade123]

OK. Teach me then!

Sure.

It might be worth mentioning I am an avid lucid dreamer. Since going down the Astral Projection path I've had 5 Astral Projections since mid December-ish. There are probably others which are better suited to provide advice; as I cannot AP consistently. And I must emphasis I'm also very persistent in my goals. However I don't mind offering the techniques; I've used two techniques with exits. I feel there isn't a 'technique that fits all' so it would be worth reading around.

My first Astral projection came from watching this youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHgwxrit2KM you basically visualise from the first person walking around your house touching everything, the smell, what the carpet feels like under your feet, more detail the better! It may have taken me around an hour in an evening in bed.

Another three have been me waking up in the middle of the night using the same technique, probably easier because your brain is geared for rem sleep. You can try drinking 3 glasses of water to make you get up to pee or something.

Another technique which worked was counting from 1-100 and pausing between each count and say 'I am lucid dreaming'. Can't remember if I floated out of my body, or just started in my bedroom, I had to repeat the counting quite a few times.

In both cases try not to move your body, do not scratch etc. For me it didn't matter what position my body was in.

Additionally I have a tip. Start a dream journal and write your dreams down first thing every morning. I feel it will kind of get you ready for what to expect when you exit. And dream recall is really important as you may forget you even had a lucid dream or astral projection. And look up Reality Checks.

And my final tip; be prepared. I've read stories of people trying to wake up and being paralysed, or awakened in nightmare scenarios. If you are concerned read up on white light and cleansing your mind. But understand that these are not 'necessary' to project, but recommended. And don't be scared or hung up about it, that will only hold you back from projecting. Nightmares actually trigger lucid dreams for me and I know how to deal with them, so I don't even bother, here is why:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/am_i_close_to_ap_some_help_is_needed_and_here_is_my_lucid_dreaming_back_story-t45389.0.html

There you go crash course 101, if in doubt read and be prepared and pay attention to Szaxx, Xanth and others on the forums 

[Xanth]

Sure.

It might be worth mentioning I am an avid lucid dreamer. Since going down the Astral Projection path I've had 5 Astral Projections since mid December-ish. There are probably others which are better suited to provide advice; as I cannot AP consistently. And I must emphasis I'm also very persistent in my goals. However I don't mind offering the techniques; I've used two techniques with exits. I feel there isn't a 'technique that fits all' so it would be worth reading around.

I just want to point out that if you drop the labels, you've had a lot more "projections" than you even realize. 

PM me if you want to know more.

Ok, you guys may continue. 

[TheBlade123]

I just want to point out that if you drop the labels, you've had a lot more "projections" than you even realize. 

PM me if you want to know more.

Ok, you guys may continue. 

What I've labeled as a 'Lucid Dream' is where you have entered the 'aware' state directly through a dream. And what I've labeled as an 'Astral Projection' is where you have entered the 'aware' state though keeping your mind awake and letting your body fall asleep.

I take it that's what you mean?

[Xanth]

What I've labeled as a 'Lucid Dream' is where you have entered the 'aware' state directly through a dream. And what I've labeled as an 'Astral Projection' is where you have entered the 'aware' state though keeping your mind awake and letting your body fall asleep.

I take it that's what you mean?

Quite correct. 

They describe entries only, not separate experiences.

[omcasey]

One of the main differences I notice between the astral projectors of today vs those of yesteryear is that previously OOBE's were traditionally considered to be an achievement earned only after many, many years of spiritual work & progress. Hence in Hinduism for example great emphasis was traditionally placed on practicing personal cleanliness, adherence to non-violence, developing respect for all forms of life, practicing chastity, exercising only truthful speech, etc.

Nowadays I see NONE of this foundational moral work being mentioned in any modern-day forums that pertain to OOBE's. In fact, most seem to treat the topic of having an OOBE as being something as easy to achieve -with regular practice- as throwing a good curve ball! Even if those who claim to be projecting on a regular basis are doing so because they already naturally adhere to and practice these basic moral concepts, why isn't morality ever mentioned when discussing the ability to have OOBE's?

Did I miss something in the translation from then to now? Could all those antique cultures have been so wrong for so many centuries? Is morality a necessary prerequisite for having an OOBE or isn't it?

Hi PG..

No our predecessors were not wrong.

It is more often OUR contemporary interpretation of the(ir) teachings that are, or that can indeed be.  

First:  The alignment / acceleration we are now experiencing and enjoying was not present in the days the texts you are mentioning were written.  It was not as easy then, as it is now to achieve the states we are now enjoying.  Focus had to me far more intent.  Not only this, the pathways had not yet been cleared, this had to happen at ground level through ground level bodies through [purification/readying] practices that would allow the body systems existent at that time to endure the initial, additional flows of information/light/energy.  We did not get to where we are now by ourselves, we did so on on the backs of those who came before for us.  We must never forget.  This has been a progression.  An evolution of experience within which we must offer our greatest gratitude for those who rode in on the wave before us.  ---Deep bows to these brave, truly amazing souls and the hardships they overcame for us.

So, yes, much of the foundation was laid for us and we continue to build upon it in our day, in contemporary terms and ways for those coming in on the wave behind us.  We are not through this yet.  The yamas and niyamas [beneficial and unbeneficial practices and behaviors]: personal cleanliness, adherence to non-violence, developing respect for all forms of life, practicing chastity, exercising only truthful speech, etc.: are not innately about morality.  They were and are still now simple platforms which allow for a more focused state of attention.  They open out into the body, breath and mind spheres allowing for dhyana [meditation] and ultimately, through entering finer, wider dimensions of being---Self realization.  The Yogas are fundamentally a statement about the way things are.  They are also processes/practices which help us become aware of this.  It is a matter of seeing these within their wider context.

[Permanently Grounded]

Dissatisfied for one reason or another with most of the answers given to my question above, I continued deeply pondering the issue when this morning I came across (was guided to?...) an excellent book on Astral Projection written by Don J DeGracia.  Here is what he has to say on the subject:

"When you initially begin to project, the first things you will encounter will be things of your own creation. Some authors refer to this as meeting the "dweller on the threshold". Again, this "Dweller" is all the petty, all the bad, all the fear that you have in you. I'm not lying about this either - it has happened to me. It's a stage you very likely will encounter. In a sense, all these negative elements of your personality are like a wall or room in the astral plane, that you will go to when you first begin to project.  It is imperative that you realize that this is YOU. There is nothing to be afraid of because it IS you. You have complete control over these elements. YOU CAN BANISH THEM SIMPLY BY UNDERSTANDING THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE.  Your consciousness of your self is like a healing fire that can burn away these negative elements by understanding them. Once you confront these negative aspects of your self, they will disappear and you will have grown with new self-insight. This growing is called "maturing", and occurs because of buddhic plane energies. It takes will-power to confront these things in yourself, and it takes wisdom and compassion to see them for what they are and to accept them.   So, one way or another, anyone aspiring to astral project will very likely be confronted with this "dweller on the threshold".  By dealing with it, you get past it, and you grow.  And then, after this first stage is passed, your experiences on the planes will not be as contaminated by personal factors. As the personal factors become less a part of your astral projection experiences, then your experiences there will reflect more clearly these planes as they objectively exist, uncontaminated by your subconscious influences. This process is like cleaning off a window. The cleaner the window is, the better you can see through it. Likewise, when you project, the cleaner your personality is, the better you will be able to see through it into the planes. Which leads me to state an important idea I have not stated yet, and that is that the planes are extremely plastic. They are molded by your slightest emotion, desire or thought. The second you think something, a little piece of the mental plane is shaped exactly into your thought pattern, making a thought-form. This is exactly why your initial experiences projecting will be so extremely colored by your personality.   So, that's it for an introduction to the moral side of astral projecting. Unlike almost any other activity we humans know of, you CANNOT be a moral retard and succeed at projecting. You can be a moral retard (i.e. have no moral values whatsoever) in art, science, business (where you actually have an advantage!) or other activities of life, but you cannot if you want to succeed astral projecting. If you DO try to project and at the same time stay morally poverty stricken, well, it is then that astral projection can be dangerous.  It is just built like this.   Though morals seem like subjective gobbly goop in our physical life, they are, in reality, the laws upon which our entire human existence is based.  Just as we need to know the laws of gravity to build a spaceship, we likewise need to know the laws of moral behavior to succeed at ANY occult task.  The only time occultism is dangerous is if you use it in an amoral fashion. "

Thoughts? Comments?

[Szaxx]

My personal view is believe the above.
If you read every post I've made you'll find this info embedded within.
In simple terms, a good personality will receive the finest experiences.
A negative destructive personality will only receive the same destructive attitude and not like the results.
Experiment if you have gained experiential abilities.
You may get booted out as I did during a few experiments.
I was instructed to 'be responsible for your actions' way back in '69. It's a good move, the environments I've experienced are immense, some just can't be described in words. Others on site have already been to these.
It may be a belief based interaction, if so then at 4 years old why wasn't I a target of my fears?
It appears we are being mentored.
Are we Telemachus and the greater reality Athena?
The truth is out there.

[Permanently Grounded]

My personal view is believe the above.

It just seems to be intuitively true for me as well. I also agree with Omcasey.

[Xanth]

It just seems to be intuitively true for me as well. I also agree with Omcasey.

I don't... at least not entirely.

What I mean is that most of the "mystical" stuff (aka: Old world, classical knowledge), seems to separate the physical as a completely separate "thing" from the non-physical.
I see them as one in the same.  Which is a basic foundation for furthering your own conclusions in all of this kind of thing.

I'm sure Omcasey can further clarify should I be missing the point. 

[Shenlord]

I am a beginner in conscious AP with a few short experiences in the past few months. However, I have been an avid practitioner of Hindu, Buddhist, Tibetan Buddhist and Taoist practices for many decades. I am not debating the merits of morality but rather wanting to put a damper on the idealization of the öld traditions.

I have personally let go of many of the wishful mythological concepts, restrictions and closed ideas imposed by many of the traditions referred to in the original post. Yes, the traditions have beautiful info and some sound guidance in them, but they can also be filled with superstition and can easily become spiritual prisons. They were established in heavily controlling, hierarchic, patriarchal, autocratic, despotic spiritual environments. The traditions and teachers also virulently contradicted one another. The systems are a mixture of precious metal, dross and fantasy.

The best advice here was given in a Zen Koan: "Ïf you should meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." The idea is that the spiritual experience must be yours or it is not authentic and that  the Buddha himself would become an impairment to your developing self-knowledge.

The Gurus of old (and the modern ones) often are so adamant that their experience is the real experience, that their path is the best, if not the only path, that their interpretation of the universe is REALITY>. Some (and I have personally experienced this in my lifetime) are abusive, manipulative and mythomanic (they make up stuff ) The greatest myth was that without the help of a Guru you could never achieve. This is nonsense propounded by  many religions. Yet it is still at the core of Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist teachings.

Some great teachers of the past truly attempted to share their knowledge with others - within the context of their culture - and did their best to help. Many others, however, hid information or purposely distorted information so that the uninitiated could not achieve. This was, in my opinion more a question of control than one of morality. I have again been personally privy to the sexual, psychological and financial escapades of a few well-know teachers (Indian and Chinese). But you could never have met more congruent, powerful, charismatic and convincing individual. The internet is replete with the outrageous stories of many of the modern spiritual autocrats.

So a lot of the morality shield is just that and it has nothing to do with spiritual exploration and the discovery of non-physical reality. Our job is to figure out who is giving out good advice and who is selling smoke, mirrors and imprisonment.