Is the astral real?

[Van-Stolin]

Hi, I respect your views just to start so don't take this as an attack.

How would you know that the astral is nothing more then a dream? Just because you feel your body doesn't mean anything.  I don't remember anywhere that people have said that they feel there body while in astral.  

You say that if you think about a demon then it will appear, then how do you explain the negs that appear without warning to people.  Robert Bruce had an experiance with a neg in OBE, but not in astral and he wasn't thinking about anything except going to the kitchen.  You can read more about that experiance here http://www.astralpulse.com/articles/robert/articles_8.htm

Now I don't mean to be rude, but you really shouldn't say these things as though they are fact, it upsets alot of people and then flame wars start.

Write back with your views on this.  Best regerds.

~Van Stolin

[Tenacious]

What's your definition of "Real"?  There is one key Item in an oobe, that is you can actually see what is happening in the RTZ("Real" time zone.)  So If you can verify these items, is that not real?


Thoughts of Astral-

Tenacious[]

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by Mohamed

Does the astral exist? - No
When we die, do we go to the astral? - No, it does not exist.
Why then did I project into the astral? - You didn't.
Do spirit guides exist? - NO!

Mohamed,

Before you go making absolute statements like this based on your own feelings, I suggest you read some of what the long-time experienced projectors on this site have had to say. Do a search on posts by Frank, Ginny, Jeff_Mash, Robert Bruce. You will see their reports of encounters that tend to sound more real than dream like. There have also been recorded cases of people discovering things while abroad in the Real Time Zone that turn out to be real.

I respect your opinions and you're quite welcome to explore this question. Believe me, you are certainly not the first to think this way, and you wont be the last. But before you turn it into a big debate, use the search function and read through some old posts. This topic has well and truly been thrashed out in the past. If you end up retaining your current view, thats fine, but try and get a bit more objectivity by looking at the thoughts of a number of other similarly questioning people before dismissing OBEs as being nothing but dreams.

Regards,
James.

[AstralKnight]

I'm not expert here by any means, but my 2 cents anyways.

I guess I'll answer, based on my own experiences.  Unfortunately the answer is YES AND NO.  

Your personal beliefs, mental stability, stressors, concerns and any and all drug use (including alcohol and caffeine) affect your dreams and I believe play a very important part in any OBEs you might have.

I've read about wonderful OBEs by people here, vibrant OBEs that are very real to them.  Come to find out they smoked a bowl, drank a fifth, or took LSD previous to this.  Of course, I'm not saying that everyone that has these experiences is unstable or a drug user.  I'm just very skeptical of the "reality" of experiences done while under the influence of mind altering substances.  Anything that alters the mind alters the experience.  

I have no doubt that there is something else out there, and I have had brief glimpses of them - again done totally sober.  I don't take drugs (prescription or otherwise), and I drink rarely and yet have still had some good experiences.  

Don't discount the experience outright, but do be discerning about what you experience.

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by Mohamed

Does the astral exist? - No
When we die, do we go to the astral? - No, it does not exist.
Why then did I project into the astral? - You didn't.
Do spirit guides exist? - NO!

Wow, you must know a lot about astral projection and OBE's.  In fact, to have such definitive answers, you must have projected, what, 400-500 times?

quote:
So far I have left my body a total of 6 times.

Oh I see.  So in six projections, you feel that you have ALL the answers.  I have had hundreds of projections and even I don't have all the answers. There is one thing I do know for sure, though, and it's this: "Just when you think you know everything, something else comes along to show you otherwise."

Please don't think that I am attacking you or your views.  I just get a kick out of your blanketed statements after only 6 projections.  It almost reminds me of those people who experience something supernatural and then they immedietely try to teach others to follow their beliefs.

However, I welcome your opinions and observations, because it helps me to compare them up to mine and my experiences, which ultimately helps me find my own answers.  So for this, I thank you.

quote:
 With each of those experiences I was in the real waking state.  Nothing was distorted, nothing was out of place.  I could see everything, all around me, front, back, up, down, full 360 degrees.  The entire experience was based on thought.

I agree with everything you say here.....except I get the impression that you're equating 'thought' to something 'not real.'  Something 'made up' or imaginary.

It is true that when you are projecting, everything is influenced by thought.  What you may not realize is the same thing occurs in your 'real life' waking state.  You don't just walk into a room.  First there is a thought, and then you walk. It just so happens that we've become accustomed to these thoughts and turned them into feelings (ex. "I FEEL like going into this room."  In reality, everything, from the words you say to the type of car you drive, started out as a thought.)

So when you have no physical body to move around in, all you have are thoughts to propell you.  When you have no physical body to interact with, you no longer use your outer five senses but instead, you use your inner senses.

quote:
In this time, I have had 2 lucid dreams.  Those dreams are what some like to refer to as the astral plane.  I experienced things that where out of this world, but it was only a dream (even though it felt so real, and I felt the floating and everything).  I consider the astral nothing more than a higher state of awareness with in a dream, but nothing more than this.

Dreams are closely related to astral travelling and OBE's, so you're not too far off there.  You know, many people mistakingly think that astral experiences are dreams.  Why?  Because when they 'wake up' and come back to their outer senses, things seem dreamlike.  For example, if you think about a conversation that you had with someone in a dream, you rarely remember it word for word.  Instead, you remember what you said and what you meant.  

Now think about a real conversation you may have had in your childhood.  It could be something you had last week with a friend or family member.  9 out of 10 times, you cannot remember the exact words to the conversation. Hell, the only memory you have of the conversation is as solid as the ones you have in your astral experiences.  The only difference is that you tell yourself one was real and one was not, even though in the present, they are both in exactly the same place: a memory in your mind.

quote:
There is one primary distinction between a lucid dream (astral projection) and an OOBE.  With an OOBE you feel separation, you no longer feel your physical body, and you only feel your soul as I like to call it.  With a Lucid dream, you can still feel your body, anything that happens in the dream you feel on your body as well.  If you're having sex, your body's genitals will become aroused.  You don't believe me?  Next time you have an astral projection, take a min to pee, when you wake up look at your bed, do not be surprised if it is wet!

So I take it you've tried this pee test?  Go ahead, we won't laugh. []

quote:
When you die, you do not go to the astral.  If you did, your entire after life would be nothing more than a dream.

But you just admitted above that when you were dreaming, everything seemed real.  To quote you, you said, "With each of those experiences I was in the real waking state.  Nothing was distorted, nothing was out of place."  So I ask you, what would be wrong with dying and going to this "dream" if everything is real with no distortion?  Perhaps you will learn that when you are in that new body, then this physical life will seem as solid as a dream.

quote:
 When you die you project into what everybody else is in, the real waking state, an out of body experience, except this time, it's permanent.

It almost sounds like you put the astral plane below the RTZ.  I think I put them the other way around.  The closer you get to the spirit and the higher you vibrate, the less physical things become and the further away you get from the real time zone.

quote:
Can you contact the dead while having an OOBE?  Yes, to a certain extent.  You can speak with those who have died 40 days or less ago.  After 40 days, you can no longer contact this person.  I say 40 days because someone in my family died, and that person was around his family for 40 days (You could literally see him).

I laugh when I read these blanketed statements like "After 40 days, you can no longer contact this person."  No offense, but what's it feel like to have all the answers?

quote:
How about those spirit guides?  When you project, everything is based on thought.  If you think about a spirit guide, sure enough your mind will create one.

Well, f*** me running, I must be doing something wrong!  I can't tell you how many projections I've had where I've done EVERYTHING to try and contact my spirit guide, and nothing happened.  I've asked nicely, I've shouted, I've concentrated extrememly hard, and no one ever shows up.  Perhaps my mind isn't as focused as yours is.

quote:
 Several people have claimed to think about a daemon, and they will see one.  This is why you should remain calm while having an OOBE, this way you can explore the world (or universe if you so please), rather than exploring your thoughts.

Hmmmm.....perhaps if you explore your thoughts, you would know more about the world and the universe.  Just my two cents.

[AstralKnight]

I guess I should add another blurb here, something I forgot to mention earlier -

Everyone should question what they experience, but nobody should judge another's experiences.  You cannot fit yourself into that person's shoes and see what they saw, and experience what they experienced.  Most of this stuff is too difficult to put accurately into words, and conveying feelings of 'reality' is difficult at best.

A lot of people have had good experience with this.  I find my life easier, things don't bother me as much, I'm more patient and generally more relaxed, and I find talking to strangers easier.  It's almost as if I realize that we are all in the same boat, everyone is trying to figure out what to do and how to act and what to believe.

So I'll ask this - given the fact that this has been a life changing experience for the better, how can it truly be bad?

Be discerning with your personal experiences and how they mold your beliefs, but when you see someone that has been positively helped by this method how can you truly say that it's *all* a load of B.S.?

[Tab]

When communication can be made between two remote people via the astral and then verified in the physical, it's pretty real.
Yes, I am talking about the astral, not the RTZ.

[beavis]

Astral is real.

But is physical earth real?

[Mohamed]

Whoa, so many replies, where to start....

Van-Stolin,

I did not post this with an intention to start a flame war.  If anyone feels this way, then I apologize!  I mealy meant to post my views on the subject.

People have their own personal beliefs.  I, on one hand, do not believe in negs and such, while others do.

Tenacious,

Yes, if you can verify what happens than I would consider it "real."  In the astral you can't really verify what happens, it just does; that is why I consider it a dream.

James S,

I do believe that while in an OOBE everything is real, but I do not believe an astral projection to be real.  For example, some people claim to see fish flying in air; others claim to see doorways in their rooms that lead to dungeons.  These claims sound more dreamlike do they not?

AstralKnight,

As I stated above, I do believe an OOBE to be real, but I do not believe in the many dimensions that people speak about.  I also do not believe that once out of body you are in a dimension close to the rtz, I believe you are in the rtz.  I do believe, however, that what most describe to be the astral dimension is nothing more than a dream.

Jeff_Mash,

400-500 times!  I wish!  In six projections I feel that I have enough to make my own opinions on the astral, what I posted was mealy my own opinion.

I don't think I made my self clear enough, I apologize for this.  My belief is that an OOBE is real, but an astral projection is not.  When I say astral I mean the astral dimension that so many people talk about, the dimension with many weird colors and flying fish.  That is nothing more than a dream, but an OOBE is real.

As for the pee test, I haven't tried it, but I did have sex in a lucid dream.  Very orgasmic [].

Tab,

That is very interesting, have you tried that or are you speculating on what others have said?



Thank you all for your views on this subject!  Please note, these comments are only of my own opinion and personal beliefs.  I am not trying to make anyone follow my point of view, I am only seeking knowledge from your points of view, and perhaps you will learn from my experiences?




Mohamed

[terrance]

Good topic
Throughout my astral career [] I've had thoughts and ideas as to what's real and what is not.  I've asked, "Am I just a blimen nutter?"

In time I've come to a nice, safe and comfy position (for me).  

Direct experience is primarily all that matters.  I've projected into the astral and rtz and had lucid dreams and lots of experiences that none of the former labels fully encompass.  I suspect that (and many others do) that the astral is more valuable to me than the rtz - especially in regards to my own spiritual development and interests.
My direct experiences confirm that this is the case for me.

However, I will not maintain that this or that is fact.

Mohamed, I think the things you've said are extremely valid and interesting and it's impossible to argue to the counter of your opinions - but your opinions differ from mine and are similar to some of the other opinions offered in this thread.  However, I would say Mohamed, that to say that this or that is a fact is not correct and you risk falling into dogma and the like.

But reading what some of you have responded with I would say to you the same thing: you're also potentially falling into dogma and the like by suggesting that Mohamed is wrong []- especially in relation to your own direct experiences and how you've later interpreted them.

I don't think there's ever anything wrong with people offering their opinion, whatever the topic may be.  And I think that's why this thread caught my eye - mohamed has offered opinions that differ to my own and to many others... but at the end of the day it's my own direct experiences that are 'real' and that count.

______

I've just read through what I wrote and it worries me that I might sound a bit like a smug git - sorry, this was not the intention.  I've got to post it because it took me a while to write []

Kind regards
t

[Van-Stolin]

Yeah, I knew you didn't want to start one, but some people are like that and might take offense to it.  

I havne't projected consiously, but I have had dreams that are as real as life itself[].  I can't wait to see the things out there though even if it is all a big dream.  

Though I would like to ask you to try some sort of test.  Right now some people are setting up a astral pulse island in the astral plane.  You could go there and look at everything around the island and then report back, if you find anything there that people have set up then it has to be real.  If you don't then I will beleive you that it is all just a dream.

[RandomName]

Yo dude, Im glad you verified that you were posting your opinion and not being a beliggerent preaching prick that I have seen plenty of times before.

On a few notes, OOBE is real, and as far as im concerned, so is astral projection. Is one more likely to tinkle themselves while dreaming and not projecting? I have tried tinkling during a projection and woke up fine, and this projection was done unintentionally, I became lucid from glancing at my hands. Doesn't this experience put a damper on your statement? Lucid dreams ARE different than AP because they are done with physical sensation and remembered sensations. In a lucid dream, a person will tinkle themselves and wake up wet, simply because they are immobile but but performing the physical actions they can at that current time.

I have HEARD myself snoring before in the astral, ticked on the ground in the astral, and also in a lucid dream. The difference is, I ALMOST wet myself while lucid dreaming, and I felt the world around me, EVERYTHING.

I have recently experienced questions that were answered in my dreams, AND while out of body, questions I did not already have the answers to, or could have possibly known about, unless I am some great Messiah and don't know it yet :-

My view is, Lucid dreams are internal projections with occasional astral influence, and AP and OOBE are one and the same.

P.S. (Recently did a school presentation on Buddhism and found it quite interesting, you should read up on it.)

[Sokrates]

Dear Mohamed,

I will not comment things that other persons already has.

But a few things.
You can meet deceased people after 40 days. Go there and have a look
About spirit guides...In a altered state like o.b.e your not always in such creating state in which your thoughts immediateley turns into a specific shape. But you can be in such Ob-state, wich you obviously have.
But why do you consider you have created a spirit guide? A spirit guide is not a materialised thoughtform from you. A spirit guide is a spirit guide. And luckily, your spirit guide does not identify  your appearence, the same way. The spirit guide see Mohamed
and Mohameds thinking capacity :-)what you create

I could be wrong but I think its unlikely that this entity will show itself or communicate with you in a way that you are AWARE OF, for a long long time.

In my specific case I received what I define as intelligent spirit communication after perhaps 2000 obe:s. That is not a bad joke.
That is learning patience.

Keep develop and enjoy the trip!

Best regards,
Sokrates

[clandestino]

I would like to throw in my tuppence worth here.

Is the "astral" actually different from the "real time zone" ? I don't believe so. I think that the "real time zone" is an area of the astral which looks like your room, thats all. This would explain why :

1) things in your room appear slightly different;
2) it becomes increasingly more difficult to maintain a sense of the "real -time zone" the further you venture away from your bedroom, or the surroundings that you are intimately familiar with,
3) It is extra-ordinarily difficult to get objective proof e.g. remembering a sequence of numbers, then confirming them during waking hours.

Mark

[Dracovulpes]

I have not been here for long time but this post got my attention.
not too long ago I did not know what to believe was it real or not.
I have had a slight experience in astral projection that made me think.I know what a dream is and my experience was not like a dream.
maybe you need to read more posts and have more astral projections
before you can say it's not real.

[T_Kman0610]

wether the astral world is real or not, i was there and it feels alot more than dream like i can tell you that! wh should you say such things about something youve experienced? i mean you have only projected 6 flippin times for cryin out loud! maybe you should read more like tisha said in the beginning. i respect all views and statements given but i will not go along with them. i feel the astral plane is real. why shouldnt it? everythingelse is right? can you believe it? there are more than 500 billion gazillion galaxies in the universe! its a anfinite exploration, something that cannot be finished because it just leads into more and more demensions. same way with the astral world, just because you ar asleep and you dont move doesnt mean your astral body cant.you have a spirit, you have a soul why not an astral body? do you see where im going with this? if not let me just say that there are alot of unknown discoveries made by scientists,geologists and other smart people. the astral world could be a whole new world we could live in! it could be the future! but if one doesnt believe doesnt that mean one doesnt experience further more? so when you quit experiencing after (6) cough! (6) AP's ur gonna say that the astral world doesnt exist? well tell me what demsnion spirits live in? see you have so many questions to answer about this topic you have made. m gonna go now and when your done answering my questions we will see what happense next.

cheers,
T_Kman0610

[astralspinner]

quote:Next time you have an astral projection, take a min to pee, when you wake up look at your bed, do not be surprised if it is wet!

I hate to tell you this... but I have done exactly this, from a lucid dream.

The bed was bone dry.

[clandestino]

Same here...

[LogoRat]

Are you really sure you are not dreaming right now?

What you see is based on what you presently understand about reality.
If you think... THIS IS HOW IT IS, then you only limit yourself to new experiences and understandings.

Keeping a open mind doesnt mean you accept everything that comes to you.. it basicly mean you let yourself be open to more knowledge.

To not understand something doesnt mean it doesnt exist, it only means that you havent touched that area yet.

To know is only something you have experienced for yourself.
But just because you know something, that doesnt mean there is not more beyond that knowledge.
So basicly there is no right and wrong, there is only different views.
But from you post, i can say that you are right on you level of knowledge.(ooops that almost made me feel more intelligent).
But hey man..Open your mind.
I have never seen someone walk back from the knowledge of the nonphysical to say that there is only physical existence.
If there is someone out there that has, then i would be suprised.
Having the knowledge about the nonphysical existence is just more knowledge.
I personally would never limit myself by saying that i know how everything works. That is a foolish decision.

It is better to start out your post by saying: This is my view on reality... instead of saying that you know it all... because you dont.

[Mohamed]

Does the astral exist? - No
When we die, do we go to the astral? - No, it does not exist.
Why then did I project into the astral? - You didn't.
Do spirit guides exist? - NO!

So far I have left my body a total of 6 times.  With each of those experiences I was in the real waking state.  Nothing was distorted, nothing was out of place.  I could see everything, all around me, front, back, up, down, full 360 degrees.  The entire experience was based on thought.

In this time, I have had 2 lucid dreams.  Those dreams are what some like to refer to as the astral plane.  I experienced things that where out of this world, but it was only a dream (even though it felt so real, and I felt the floating and everything).  I consider the astral nothing more than a higher state of awareness with in a dream, but nothing more than this.

There is one primary distinction between a lucid dream (astral projection) and an OOBE.  With an OOBE you feel separation, you no longer feel your physical body, and you only feel your soul as I like to call it.  With a Lucid dream, you can still feel your body, anything that happens in the dream you feel on your body as well.  If you're having sex, your body's genitals will become aroused.  You don't believe me?  Next time you have an astral projection, take a min to pee, when you wake up look at your bed, do not be surprised if it is wet!

When you die, you do not go to the astral.  If you did, your entire after life would be nothing more than a dream.  When you die you project into what everybody else is in, the real waking state, an out of body experience, except this time, it's permanent.

Can you contact the dead while having an OOBE?  Yes, to a certain extent.  You can speak with those who have died 40 days or less ago.  After 40 days, you can no longer contact this person.  I say 40 days because someone in my family died, and that person was around his family for 40 days (You could literally see him).

How about those spirit guides?  When you project, everything is based on thought.  If you think about a spirit guide, sure enough your mind will create one.  Several people have claimed to think about a daemon, and they will see one.  This is why you should remain calm while having an OOBE, this way you can explore the world (or universe if you so please), rather than exploring your thoughts.

Mohamed