Key to OOBE?

[Snow Pellets]

After having read a lot of experiences and having had my own of this same type, I have found a remarkably similar coincidence that most of OBEs originate from going into a sleep cycle (REM and/or NREM) and then waking back up in the "theta" state, ready to project.  What is this exactly in clear-cut terms?  Why does it happen this way?

So then why can't we just go into the theta state directly from waking consciousness at the beginning of the night.. in other words, why can't we fall asleep consciously all the time?  Do you believe that if we keep focusing on keeping our minds clear of all thoughts and practice "being" in the trance state that eventually you WILL condition your mind to "fall asleep consciously" and arrive into theta within a couple of hours?

[astralspinner]

Umm... that's exactly what meditation does - puts you into a state of extreme relaxation. I can hit the asleep-but-conscious state in about seven minutes. It just takes practice & discipline.

[Snow Pellets]

The main problem though is that even if you keep your mind clear, it still just "fades" away from being aware.. its hard to explain.. it doesn't drift it just shuts down after a certain point like you "loose" your state of being and then re-emerge into a dream.

How can you stay aware but at the same time not "think" in order to be aware?  That doesn't really make sense to me I guess.

[Leo Volont]

The main problem though is that even if you keep your mind clear, it still just "fades" away from being aware.. its hard to explain.. it doesn't drift it just shuts down after a certain point like you "loose" your state of being and then re-emerge into a dream.

How can you stay aware but at the same time not "think" in order to be aware?  That doesn't really make sense to me I guess.

You have identified one of the big 'problems' that have been addressed by various spiritual traditions.  Old Sai Baba a Shirdi used to stress 'staying awake' while sleeping, and the Aurobindo Tradition out of Pondicherry... they used to emphasize continuity of consciousness into the sleep state.

It can only be supposed that some people are better at maintaining continuity then others.  I suppose if all you are bothered with is a lapse of consciousness, but you still find yourself on the other side, still holding the thread of Consciousness, then you have litte to worry about.  Most people simply take up new threads and set off in their dream experiences.

I suppose it IS necessary, at some point, to integrate the Waking Self and the Dream Self.  They aren't quite the same, you know.  Every once in awhile I take the opportunity to self-reflect while I am my Dream Self... there is a whole different set of memories, as the Dream Self.  If you were to often enter into the Dream Realm, insisting upon being the Waking Self, then something would have to be done about the Continuity of that Being which is more or less whole in the Dream Realm.

[astralspinner]

The main problem though is that even if you keep your mind clear, it still just "fades" away from being aware.. its hard to explain.. it doesn't drift it just shuts down after a certain point like you "loose" your state of being and then re-emerge into a dream.

How can you stay aware but at the same time not "think" in order to be aware? That doesn't really make sense to me I guess.

As Leo says, that's one of the big problems. I know exactly what you mean, it caused me trouble for ages.

I tried various methods for getting around it. Counting breaths, keeping a totally clear mind, all sorts.

Recently, I made a breakthrough by finding that it's possible to keep the mind clear not by concentrating on it, but by relaxing in such a way that your mind becomes naturally still. In this state, your entire attention is on your own state of mind, and so you just plain don't drift. It almost felt like cheating when I found a simple method that kept my mind clear and alert with no effort.

But it did take me four months of daily meditation and experimentation to work out how to enter that state. And even now, I haven't reached the point where I can tell that I'm in the alert-but-asleep state and stay in it reliably.

Try relaxing and focussing entirely on your mind and how it feels. Also, get plenty of sleep and don't meditate when you're tired. Being tired is a huge hindrance, not a help, as your mind will want to drift into sleep rather than stay alert.

[JAW]

I have had almost the opposite problem lately. I can keep my mind awake, but once I start on the "Im going to stay awake" path, I cant sleep afterwards. Ill be in a good level of relaxation and my mind is clear, but then usually half an hour or more later Ill be getting very uncomfortable lying in the same position - then ill have to stop, admit "defeat" and try and go to sleep, which is then impossible During meditation I sometimes go from not being able to feel my body to being uncomfortable, which is annoying. I do yoga several times a week as well so its definitely not a body relaxation thing.

On the state of mind subject, another thing Ive found is that I can identify two fairly different states of mind, which can be pretty much switched on and off - one is a "Im going to relax and go to sleep" and the other is "concentrate, stay awake, count breaths" or whatever method Im using. Im not sure if its just eye positions or what, but each state I put myself in feels different, both physically and mentally. The going to sleep state is almost like my brain feels more relaxed (and Im pretty sure my eyes fall into a different position) and the concentrated state is focussed and going through whatever motions... Hope that made some sense. You should be able to notice the difference if you go to sleep one night and pay attention to the feeling, then perhaps once you have that feeling, change to a meditation/breathe counting mode and notice the difference... Im interested to know if anyone else has similar experiences.

Cheers,
JAW

[astralspinner]

I know exactly what you mean. I noticed that sitting down to count gave a different mindset to sitting down to go to sleep.

Then I noticed that if I sat down & relaxed like I was going to sleep, I could, if careful, keep in the same relaxed state as I began counting.

Then I found that focussing on the relaxed feeling negated the need for counting at all, and that's where I am now. . .

[Snow Pellets]

astralspinner that breakthough that you discussed about the quietness may be the key.

Perhaps we just need to concentrate not on keeping the mind clear and focusing because that is a thought all in itself.. but on "catching" ourself when we notice ourself drifting to an unpleasant state of unconsciousness.  At the same time, I guess if you keep "nothing can bother me, nothing can touch me, i am relaxed and i'm about to  enter anotherworldy state soon" mindset and focus on just attaining the most pleasurable relaxation possible then sleep will naturally occur and you will enter the theta state where you can bring about the vibrations/buzzing yet at the same time remaining aware.

In essence to keep the mind blank relaxation in itself as a concept will fulfill that need to keep the mind void of all external stimulus and thoughts and opening it to the inner-self while not loosing awareness?

[glacius*]

You have to learn to go into the mindset of "I am going to relax and go to sleep", yet stay conscious. Thats is what meditation is. You may be straining your eyes as well and not noticing it. It happens to me too. I will try and project for like 20 mins only to realize that some part of my body and mind are not relaxed.
     Don't get the impression that you are trying to keep your mind awake because that will cause you to think to much. You kind of have to train the subconscious to keep your mind awake so that you can totally relax your mind without falling asleep. You should not have trouble sleeping after an AP attempt. If you do it means your mind is waaay too wired for AP. OBE and sleep are extremely close together.

[Telos]

Whenever I wake up from an AP, I always find that my body is supremely comfortable and balanced. I always try to recreate that feeling of comfort, and have been successful on a couple of occasions (from complete wakefulness), however it's easier said than done.

Perhaps it would be easier with a TempurPedic(TM) mattress? Does anyone here have one?