Why Astral Project in the Future?

[BillionNamesofGod]

This is quite an amazing article.
If you are into sci-fi, and futurism, like me this will happen, and when it does, why do we need to OBE? This will be better surely?

"Eventually, anything you can do in real reality -- business meetings, social events, sex, sports -- could be done in virtual reality. As the technology gets perfected, we'll be spending more and more time in virtual reality, because it'll be more and more compelling. Going to Web sites will mean going to a virtual reality environment. Some will emulate real environments, so you'll visit the Web to go skiing in the Alps or to take a walk on a beach in Tahiti. Others will be fantastic environments that don't exist, or couldn't exist, in the real world."

from

http://www.businessweek.com/1999/99_35/b3644022.htm

what does everyone else think? Will OBE be less interesting?


If anyone wants to try a really cool OBE style VR environment, you can do it right now!


//www.secondlife.com

Will someone sign up and meet us in  2nd life?  You can fly around just like a OBE in RTZ.

[BillionNamesofGod]

good place to run a virtual classroom (are you listening Frank?)
You just set off an audio stream and talk, and we can all have our 3d avatars,see each other and listen.

sounds cool!
it's free to sign up, what are we all waiting for?

my name is "who doctorow" in 2nd life..

[IequalMC2]

Hi Billion, Akasayi, Billionnamesofgod

I gave it a scan read, I see what you are saying, and it's interesting. So it looks like there going to let Nanno bots in the world, like a subconscious manifestation of spirit. Anything that can be used for good is usually used for bad by us. Think of this.

Ever played Dark Age of Camelot? or the Sims?

VR training programs, yep that's a plus for kung-fu and stuff. Natrually self-eveident the Armed forces will use it as a killing program. And because the brainwashed troops would be so used to killing VR troops, they would be lethal, cold and merciless, not good.

VR Sex, you don't even have to imagine that market. What would the effect of these realms have, in reality? I don't think it's a good idea, it's like playing with the Earths Axis, we don't know enough about wider reality to explore yet.      
   
This must never be allowed to happen without proper guidense. I'm farsighted, this confirms my fears. Anyone who uses those Total Recall lobotomy machines will perish in there own thoughts; Total Recall style, that wont be where it will stop, it might bring lots of things to challenge society in its wake.

I like a challenge.

I believe these future VR computers will disturb the natural 'incidence decoder' the incidence decoder is set to yesterday (Birthday) all our lives. Those computers are tomorrows unruly snakes, I foresee many problems in one Incident (22 years/ My Birthdays Today), that will take them 22 years to comprehend, yet alone understand.

AP is a Godsend, and already is the best university and invisible virtual environment of everything available, dont you think?
 
Brad

[BillionNamesofGod]

AP is a Godsend, and already is the best university and invisible virtual environment of everything available, dont you think?
 
Brad

I agree with you.  I also actually, believe is Quantum Consiousness.
So I don't believe any computer how powerful, will ever be able to explore astral realms or "die" and be re-born, it's just hardware.
The problem is the hardware will be able to simulate OBE! you won't be able to tell the difference. One's real, One's fake.

AP to me is a godsend it really is.  

But I'm also a uber geek and I love all things geek.

Won't you join me in 2nd Life?

[Namra]

So I don't believe any computer how powerful, will ever be able to explore astral realms or "die" and be re-born, it's just hardware.

Do not underestimate the power of evolution.  I too am a Futurist.  Hardware, hardly.  Have you really thought about the implications of post-humanism?  I strongly suspect before we go post that we will create intelligence greater than us which is how we will be able to go post.

In reality we are no different from a computer. A computer even has mass and an existence.  Our mind is merely data, biological hardware.

[pmlonline]

Some people think we are already in a VR machine.  Kind of like the Matrix, but we don't remember it.  Actually I think technology will aid in real obe's.  That would be much better than any VR machine.  Personally I am somewhat concerned about the nanobot idea.  Have you heard of the gray goo scenario?

I'm amazed that VR hasn't become very popular.  Several years ago for $30 I bought some 3D glasses.  Not the red & blue things.  These are the high speed shutters that work great on 100 to 120 Hz monitors.  It's amazing how well they work!  How is works is that it plugs into Microsoft DirectX.  So any program that uses DirectX will work with these 3D glasses.  Most games now use DirectX.  There are some games that look more real / 3D than others, but most 3D games look good in 3D.  Try playing Microsoft Flight Simulator!  Wow it is cool.  You feel like you're 1000's of feet in the sky.  It's like looking through a glass window from 20,000 feet up.  Also it has program that can view any 3D image.  I was taking dual pictures with my digital camera and viewing them it 3D on the computer.  You just take one picture at the left eyes point of view and another for the right eyes point of view.  You can separate the dual image point of view like 10 feet and make your house look like a tiny miniature object.

Here the glass I bought for $30 a few years ago.  Not sure how much they are now.
http://www.msicomputer.com/product/detail_spec/product_detail.asp?model=Stereo2-Glasses&search_text=glasses

Paul

[catmeow]

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but VR technology is still a long long way away.  We can put on VR headsets and get good audio-visual effects, and it's great fun, but there is almost no technology at the moment that can read our thoughts and correctly interpret our intentions so that we can move around at will inside a VR world.

The best we can do at the moment is to hook up an EEG machine (eg BrainMaster at $1000 - yes I considered it) and get our brainwaves to "control" a few light and sound patterns.  There is software to do this right now.  But this type of "control" is a very blunt instrument.  Until we can devise some electronics which can read our thoughts and intentions and convert these into a VR representation of exactly what we thought of, we won't even get close to true VR.  And what about the senses of touch, smell, taste, balance etc... etc...  There is no way of virtualizing these at the moment!

Your best bet is to keep on LD/AP'ing for the foreseeable future.  I had a great time this morning flying at great speed around an endless fantastic environment, every movement chosen and controlled instantly by my thoughts.  There is no VR machine around at the moment that can even come close to that and there won't be for a long long long time!  

It's good fun to talk about nanobots and how scientists could manufacture a huge VR universe, but this is all just fantasy at the moment.  Nobody has ever built a nanobot...!

Don't hold your breath!

But DO check out BrainMaster if you have a $1000 or so to spare...

http://www.brainmaster.com/
http://www.dynamind.com/bm.htm
http://www.dynamind.com/eeg.htm#bm
http://www.brainmirror.com/html/brainmirror.html

catmeow

[catmeow]

Ok, I just scanned a few lines from the BusinessWeek article about Raymond Kurzweil.  Look, just forget it, the whole article is laughable.

MRI's are reverse-engineering the human brain?  Give me a break!  All an MRI does is give a picture of brain tissue.  Like taking a photograph of a computer.  So that's reverse-engineering?  And computers have "artificial intelligence"?  Give me another break!  Computers are calculators - they don't "think".  they don't cognisize.

Human intelligence is characterised by various elements, eg cognizance, emotion, sense of identity, creativity, art appreciation, computation etc etc.  The only ONE of these which a computer can do is computation.  If you're waiting for a computer that will have real intelligence, you have a long long wait.  

The science of mapping the human brain has made very few inroads, no-one knows for instance where "memory" resides, and this guy is talking as if it's all sewn up already!

And as for nanobots? just pure fantasy.  No one ever built one, no one ever will...  The human race will have destroyed itself before anyone manufactures microscopic nanocomputers communicating via wireless technology.  Look, the wavelengths used for wireless technology far exceed the physical dimensions of a nanobot, therefore by definition wireless communication between these devices is impossible!

Just forget it....

I bet this guy's best friend is David Icke

Sorry BillionNames, I know you post good stuff, not digging at you, it's just that the article isn't my thing....!

catmeow

[MisterJingo]

I think VR might become a possibility without having to decipher thoughts themselves, I come to this conclusion because there has already been dramatic advancements in implanting visual information to the vision centres of the brain using electronics and a video camera. The purpose of these experiments was to allow blind people (with intact visual centres) to see with a camera built into their glasses. It is by no means perfect, but they have had success in transmitting rudimentary forms and colours to these centres. It's a long way off a full VR environment admittedly. But I don't see in the future why it wouldn't be possible through the use of brain surgery and implanted technology to override sensory experiences with those fed directly into sensory brain regions. This would bypass complexities of manipulating thoughts as it just gives input and normal brain processes take over with this implanted information from there.

[BillionNamesofGod]

Ok, I just scanned a few lines from the BusinessWeek article about Raymond Kurzweil.  Look, just forget it, the whole article is laughable.

MRI's are reverse-engineering the human brain?  Give me a break!  All an MRI does is give a picture of brain tissue.  Like taking a photograph of a computer.  So that's reverse-engineering?  And computers have "artificial intelligence"?  Give me another break!  Computers are calculators - they don't "think".  they don't cognisize.

Human intelligence is characterised by various elements, eg cognizance, emotion, sense of identity, creativity, art appreciation, computation etc etc.  The only ONE of these which a computer can do is computation.  If you're waiting for a computer that will have real intelligence, you have a long long wait.  

The science of mapping the human brain has made very few inroads, no-one knows for instance where "memory" resides, and this guy is talking as if it's all sewn up already!

And as for nanobots? just pure fantasy.  No one ever built one, no one ever will...  The human race will have destroyed itself before anyone manufactures microscopic nanocomputers communicating via wireless technology.  Look, the wavelengths used for wireless technology far exceed the physical dimensions of a nanobot, therefore by definition wireless communication between these devices is impossible!

Just forget it....

I bet this guy's best friend is David Icke

Sorry BillionNames, I know you post good stuff, not digging at you, it's just that the article isn't my thing....!

catmeow

LOL

your sig did it for me!

"Unless we attempt the absurd we cannot achieve the impossible - Albert Einstein"

LOL

[Telos]

catmeow, Kurzweil's claim is that non-destructive brain scanning technologies, like MRI, are growing exponentially in their accuracy and that this will continue, subsequently assisting our attempts to reverse engineer the brain. The accuracy of destructive scanning techniques (hopefully performed on those already deceased!) are also increasing, assisting us even moreso.

And computers have "artificial intelligence"? Give me another break! Computers are calculators - they don't "think". they don't cognisize.

His response to this is usually two-fold. First, the computers we are familiar with today are simple compared to the complexity of the brain and are only capable of fraction of the brain's processing power. Second, the brain takes advantage of chaotic processes during its development in order to reach such stages of complexity, where our present day computers do not. Here, Kurzweil claims that as computers become more complex while taking advantage of chaotic processes during their "learning" and development, they will be able to resemble human cognition.

He just recently launched http://www.singularity.com/ to publicize his new book, and a couple sample chapters are included there for download. You might be interested in reading both of them, namely Chapter 9, titled, "Response to Critics."

Although I'm not a "believer" of Kurzweil's per se, I can't help but take a look at his work. I will not lie when I say that in some ways I am deeply uncomfortable about all this. All this talk about perfect virtual realities and attaching nanbots to our brain cells to the point of replacing them... really, aren't these just cheap attempts to imitate lucid dreaming? What will happen to people who subjugate themselves to this kind of treatment? Will they ever be able to have a lucid dream the way we do? Can it ever be as beautiful? I was raised in Catholic schools and although I have rejected most of it, I can't seem to get rid of some parts... like the soul, life after death, heaven, God as knower of all truth, etc.,... things that I actually feel that I've experienced in some way via lucid dreaming. Will all these things be gone if I go posthuman? Will they be "disproven" as mere chemical reactions?

It is a territory of extreme speculation - all clues and no answers. But with every tomorrow there's some barely noticable new technological development that changes a little bit of our lives. And they keep piling up! Where will it end?


Oh, and I can think of a perfect reason for projecting into the future, the same way I can think of a perfect reason for taking a plane to China instead of walking.

[matb_uk]

I have to agree with catmeow on the whole brain scan thing. I don't think they'll ever be able to mimic human consciousness simply be scanning the brain. They may be able to see how the whole thing is built but it won't really tell the how it does what it does. There are people out there who appear to have no discernable brain (See http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm) yet they function quite happily. I think theres more to it that just neurons and synapses etc.

[MisterJingo]

I have to agree with catmeow on the whole brain scan thing. I don't think they'll ever be able to mimic human consciousness simply be scanning the brain. They may be able to see how the whole thing is built but it won't really tell the how it does what it does. There are people out there who appear to have no discernable brain (See http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm) yet they function quite happily. I think theres more to it that just neurons and synapses etc.

I'm not too sure, a form of brain scan called Magnetoencephalography (MEG) can detect the magnetic fields caused by single neurons firing anywhere in the brain. This is allowing scientists to probe consciousness and start building a model of it. For example, a controversial finding of this technique was that when attention occurs in a patient being scanned there appears to be a global sweep of gamma activity. It starts at the front of the head and moves back quite rapidly.  More of these findings are in a book called "When the clock struck zero" by "professor John Taylor". The use of MEG in conjunction with the map of the brain areas and their connections already created is producing a model of consciousness which seems to explain many limitations of ours, such as decreasing mental functioning with age,  why we can only put attention on one thing at a time,  and a lot more that I can't think of right now
Admittedly it's a long way off even explaining consciousness, but it seems a promising start.

[catmeow]

I come to this conclusion because there has already been dramatic advancements in implanting visual information to the vision centres of the brain using electronics and a video camera. ... It is by no means perfect, but they have had success in transmitting rudimentary forms and colours to these centres. It's a long way off a full VR environment admittedly. But I don't see in the future why it wouldn't be possible through the use of brain surgery and implanted technology to override sensory experiences with those fed directly into sensory brain regions.

That's an interesting possibility.  It means that potentially we could throw away the VR headset and send signals directly into the brain.  In this way it might be possible to produce sensations of taste, smell and touch too.  But I think this is a long way away.  To produce accurate visual imagery for instance, we need to perfectly mimic the impulses generated by the optic nerve, and our technology isn't nearly precise enough to do that at present. But it's an interesting idea.

This would bypass complexities of manipulating thoughts as it just gives input and normal brain processes take over with this implanted information from there

Don't understand this at all.  

As I see it VR is a feedback loop:

1. Capture thoughts from brain (how?)
2. Process person's intentions (using pretty amazing software)
3. Feedback sensory impressions to brain (using method above)
4. Wait for person's reaction
5. Go back to 1....

So direct electrical feedback into sensory regions of the brain only solves the easy part of the problem.

catmeow

[catmeow]

LOL

your sig did it for me!

"Unless we attempt the absurd we cannot achieve the impossible - Albert Einstein"

LOL

Yeh... busted! I was hoping nobody would notice that!  But I reserve the right to pick and choose what level of absurdity I will tolerate...!

catmeow

[catmeow]

His response to this is usually two-fold. First, the computers we are familiar with today are simple compared to the complexity of the brain and are only capable of fraction of the brain's processing power.

I'll say...

Second, the brain takes advantage of chaotic processes during its development in order to reach such stages of complexity, where our present day computers do not. Here, Kurzweil claims that as computers become more complex while taking advantage of chaotic processes during their "learning" and development, they will be able to resemble human cognition.

Well yes there might be a "random" element in brain function which is the key to creating true artificial intelligence.   But I don't think that's the answer.  People who suggest this are simply guessing, They really don't know.  It's a kind of desperate stab in the dark, to explain why computers are so DUMB!

Kurzweil is making the assumption that "the brain oozes thought like the liver oozes bile".  I personally believe that this is utterly unproven and most likely wrong.  If I'm correct, and the brain is not a "generator of consciousness", no amount of reverse-engineering will give us a solution for the problem of artificial intelligence.  Because Kurzweil and people like him will have been looking in the wrong place....!

In any event, I'll read the link you gave, and see what I make of it!

MisterJingo - your MEG info is interesting and it's good to see that people are doing this type of research, but the same comment applies here - I suspect these people will never find what they are looking for because they are looking in the wrong place!

catmeow