My Awakening & First 2 OBE Experiences(Please Read)

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dadatheking

Now Please don't get scared off by how long this is. It really would mean a lot if you all would read and feedback. It took a long time to write, recall it all, and takes a fraction of that to read. You wont be disappointed by my story I promise.



Well how to start this off. So for the past 6 years now(I just turned 19), iv always felt something "helping me" in a type of guardian angel way. So a while back I was exposed to the idea that Telekinesis and that type of stuff are real. So after maybe like 2 sessions of what back then I would like to call meditation I kinda let that whole phase fade out of my mind. Just until recently December 21st, 2012 to be exact I randomly came across the idea of "ascension" on the internet. After spending that whole entire day on the internet researching this concept I came to the conclusion that I was meant to come across that. As I was 18 then, I made a promise to myself that come my next birthday(about 1 month from that day) February 6th I would start meditating as simple as it sounds. So lets take a jump back real quick and let me say that for the past couple years every once in a while I would have dreams were I would what it felt to be like battling this unknown figure with what it seemed to be a pure power struggle(something that would be in a weird dark anime version of Dragon ball Z or something). Now since middle school I had a history of having detailed weird dreams frequently but they never made sense so I wrote it off as just that a dream. So back the the power struggle since it rarely happened along with how real and intense it was I kinda paid attention to it. Now every single time I had that dream I would always lose and I would think that because in the dream it would just be too much for me and begin to overwhelm me and give me a feeling of it taking over me. So by the time I started having this particular dream I had the ability to manually at any time wake myself up, and when I began to be overcome in this dream I would do exactly that due to how weird/scary it felt. Now during and after I woke myself up from these dreams I would notice this weird "feeling" in the lower chest/upper abdomen area that was untill a few days ago hard to explain.

So Yesterday on my birthday February 6th, I ironically had this dream again. This time it was different though, now I cant exactly say that this time I let it overwhelm me but this time basically I had no chance to react if I remember right as it was very quick. Being overwhelmed quickly I did exactly what I always do I manually wake myself up. Upon waking myself up I felt that "feeling" stronger then ever. I guess that's what kind of gave me time to identify this "feeling" as a internal STRONG vibration and when I say strong I mean like WOW if I didn't know about chakras meditation and all that stuff along with my medical EMT training knowledge on the whereabouts of the heart, Im sure I would think I was having a violent abnormal heart attack but as I said before it was in a different area and the feeling was more spiritual. So anyways back to as I just woke up and I identified it as a powerful vibration known in meditation, I embarrassed it I guess you can say. I immediately went back to "sleep" and instantly was thrown in what felt to be a OBE or Astral Projection. Without any effort by me I started to what felt to be "Rising" through a portal and ended back into my room but it was distorted as dreams always are. Now I was conscious during this so I knew what this could be. My first instinct was to move some objects in my room I guess just to test the extents of this experience so when I woke up I can check if it was changed. Let me add that my room was more of a mental picture then an exact copy object for object. After doing that I opened my sliding glass door and encountered this weird small thing, that's all I can say it was a thing it kind of stopped me and I remember struggling with it for a quick quick second then continuing on. Right after that this experience turned into a straight lucid dream I guess you can say because I was conscious but everything was way too distorted and random to be real. But then again I read that in the early beginner stages details are hard to conceive. So anyway I don't really want to talk about that dream since after it became lucid it got real weird, random, and Irrelevant.

Now that isnt the main part of why I wanted to write this as come the next day(the 7th) I was dedicated to furthering this experience. After doing a little quick research on just OBE and Astral Projection along with others experiences I was determined and full of belief. Come around like 3:30AM I started some what I believe to be helpful, Breathing technique then laid down on my bed not too tired so I wouldn't just knock out. After a while(maybe 20 mins max) of breathing while laying down face up I began to notice a visual disconnection from the physical world along with a type of tingling in my hands and feet. Also as weird as it is my feet and legs would start to twitch once in a while. Now for some reason my eyes were hard to relax and keep completely closed(primarily my left eye would become relaxed to were it would creep up to a small 3% open and I would barley see a blurry image of my ceiling. I started to literally feel everything you would think you would feel while meditating, but I noticed that in the face up position I couldn't completely relax my arms and legs along with my breathing. So slowly because I didn't want to lose all the spiritual energy I built up I flipped myself over to a face down position(The position I normally put myself to sleep in). After doing that I noticed a HUGE positive change. I was able to relax and keep my eyes closed. I started to get this intense tingling in my hands that could be thought as vibrations. I took control of these tingles as of now it was extremely intense and I started to manually spread it from my hands to my arms to my torso. As It hit my torso area everything just went full throttle my chest began to produce that "feeling" now known as a strong vibration and then spread to a numbness of my whole body. I began saying every now and then in a type of a whisper stuff like "Universe.... Spiritual Guide Help me guide me". I also began to picture light beings standing over my bed looking down on my sometimes lifting me up. Every once in a while I began to get creepy thoughts/images in my head I wrote this off as my mind playing tricks on me since a few hours ago prior I watched the whole series of  Paranormal Activity. I know such a bad thing to do, but it was easy to destroy these thoughts with a simple mental action of shining a bright light and disintegrating these bad thoughts and images. After a while these began to go away and I started a few techniques I read about on the internet, like the rope technique etc etc. The rope technique didn't really work or do anything until i started imagining the tingling in my arms as a spiritual version of my body and started to try and reach up with just that version and not my physical. Overall the rope technique wasn't too helpful and I began to think that I can rely on just that and it was up to me to find what works for myself. So I started to imagine myself Rising like in the experience the day before, but not my physical body, my spiritual body which I felt out as the tingling and vibrating that was going on. This was at first not helpful but after a while I noticed that all was vibrating and tingling but my head. These techniques were helpful for creating the vibration of my body below the neck but not above(like if the lower 6 chakras were open but not the 7th). So I started to imagine in the black space like screen of my closed eyes a dot or single point. It took a while to get it right but I couldn't visually  focus on the point I had to mentally focus on the point if that makes any sense. After a while I mentally started feeling my mind go into a portal of INTENSE feelings along with a full body vibration and tingle sensations. It was odd though, since if I focused on this portal feeling It would stop but after a while of trial and error I was able to get the feeling to a climax and then used it to give myself the jump I needed to leave my physical body(or at least what felt like it). It took a few times to get myself in a state to were I would say I successfully left my body. Now this time I noticed that my room wasn't dead on and was kinda of a more detailed mental image of it just like in the prior experience. The "what I felt to be an OBE" was hard to keep going and would only last a extended short while enough for me to think and do as if it was in the physical plane but once it would end I would do the same process and get myself back in the same OBE state. For some reason when I tried to leave my home and fly high and that type of stuff people always talk about I would lose it and start over. So I kinda stayed in my house once in my backyard but that's it. The first thing I did again was turn lights on and move stuff so I could see if it stayed like that when I woke up. I guess I do that to see if this a really an OBE and not a Lucid dream of some sort. Let me just skip to it and say that no nothing was moved when I woke up and was kind of disappointing. In my quick tour around my house I swear I heard my mom down stairs getting ready in the OBE, and when I woke up it was around the time she gets ready for work and so she was. I didnt come across any entities light or dark but comparing to the prior experience I can see a huge progression.

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH FOR READING. It took a long time to write all this and I would love to hear feedback along with your related stories and even if you think my experience was a beginner but real OBE.


P.S: I at this point am really good at recalling dreams or stuff like this since through out the years I would go through dreams, that should honestly be made into movies and then would write then down every once ina while.

-A Believer



Bedeekin

Sounds very familiar.

You use completely different metaphors to me... like talking about 'Chakras' which have never entered my belief system... but all in all and personal metaphors aside, I completely understood and can relate to everything you said.

You had what is commonly known as Sleep paralysis or the Vibrational State and you attempted several times to instigate a separation by using different methods while calmly staying within the 'state'.

You also had a successful OOBE.

It's all practice and more patience now.


Astralzombie

What you described was a very typical OBE for a first timer. Luckily, you kind of knew what to expect so you didn't let fear overwhelm you.

Don't be disappointed in your inability to move objects in the non physical. None of us are superhuman. I know some people claim to have this ability and I believe that some probably do. That ability however, is not even remotely one of my goals.

I don't really understand all the chakras and what they do but I'm sure it's beneficial to know. I'm glad to see that you have a sound beginners attitude. I didn't. And for years, I was really ignorant to what was happening.

It's up to you but I would recommend not telling everybody you know about your experience. It's not as if there is anything to be ashamed of but close-minded people are not easily convinced or even care for that matter.

Stick around. There's lots of good help here.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

Steel Hawk

Classic OBE. But yep, sorta hits on the point I've been trying to make here. It's an amazing experience and worth it to develop but it's most likely all in your own mind. Ergo you move stuff in your OBE and see it move, and when you return to "real life" it's not moved.

Sorry guys.

Bedeekin


Astralzombie

Quote from: Steel Hawk on February 08, 2013, 12:45:45
Classic OBE. But yep, sorta hits on the point I've been trying to make here. It's an amazing experience and worth it to develop but it's most likely all in your own mind. Ergo you move stuff in your OBE and see it move, and when you return to "real life" it's not moved.

Sorry guys.

I'm not arguing against the premise that this is all in our consciousness. In fact, I agree. I'm trying to learn if our consciousness is much more than we could imagine. Right now, I view our brains as a computer and they give us the ability to link up with the physical world, the physical being just one server that can link us to the internet. The non physical is another server that links us to the the internet. The internet being everything. I want to know, what happens when we lose our computer. Since our brains are physical, something else is driving our NPR experiences.

Of course, I could be full of crap and I don't discount that possibility. And I'll move on to something else if I start to feel that way. Jesus, is my fail-safe back up. That may sound blasphemous but if you take Christianity at it's word, I'll only need one second to repent. And I got my prayer down pat that I only need a nano sec to say it. :evil: If this is all bunk, at least we spent our time sleeping to have cooler dreams that the average joe. That's got to count for something in my book.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

Astralzombie

Quote from: Steel Hawk on February 08, 2013, 12:45:45
Classic OBE. But yep, sorta hits on the point I've been trying to make here. It's an amazing experience and worth it to develop but it's most likely all in your own mind. Ergo you move stuff in your OBE and see it move, and when you return to "real life" it's not moved.

Sorry guys.

Also, what you view as proof that OOBE's are only in our minds, I view as proof that the objects we moved in the non physical were only moved in the non physical.

I'm not picking a fight, on the contrary. You may say something that makes "the penny drop" for me. And for that, I would be truly grateful. And I agree with Beedeekin, so long as we speak what we know to be true for us, there's no need to apologize.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

Steel Hawk

Quote from: its_all_bad on February 08, 2013, 13:54:44
Jesus, is my fail-safe back up.

LOL. I too on my death bed imagine I will be praying to Jesus without shame. Ingrained beliefs don't go away easy.

ChopstickFox

Awesome experience! It's cool that you were able to keep a level head through it all. I still get all excited and mess up, haha. In the beginning I would try to move stuff around too, but I'd usually notice that things were already moved or different in the non physical. And if nothing is different I'm usually in a false awakening and don't even realize it.

I've been in an obe while people were up and about in my apartment before. Sommtimes it matches up... Once I went into one while my husband was in the shower and there was no loss of consciousness through it. Then other times I have seen people come into my room and then be embarrassed when told later when I was awake that no one was ever over that morning. Darn you false awakenings!!!

It's interesting how much our perceptions pick up (and how much we can be oblivious to).

Regarding trying to physically move things, it might be more fun to reach out and explore more. I never have much luck leaving my apartment without it turning into a lucid dream or returning to my body, but phasing can be a blast. Rather than exiting your body into your room you are just... somewhere completely different. It can be very exciting! I don't have a link to another post, but there is information all over about it.

Keep enjoying yourself! :D
Take to the sky, feeling so alive! Past the clouds to the Milky Way, share our secrets with the starry brigade. The stars surround us like a million fireflies. For once I see infinity... it's in your eyes.

Wapiti

I can relate completely to feeling the vibrations, a high pitched whine perhaps and a fast heartbeat.
Whenever I felt these sensations I always knew in my head I was close, and in return I always pushed to hard for it. Of the few OBEs I have had I have "slipped" into them. I realize now my mistake, and sounds like what has happened to you as well.

don't get too excited about where you are in the vibration stage and that you are close, instead try blocking out all of those thoughts and merely let happen what is going to happen. The hardest part for me is my mind would always kick in whenever I felt a change, or going "deeper" into my state of mind. Practice practice practice to let your mind be empty, and let it do what it needs to do, you will know when you have separated.

reality_bytes

I don't think whether you can move something in an OBE and have that reflected in physical reality has too much bearing on whether you've had an OBE.

I think the best way to validate the experience is to bring back some otherwise unknowable information with you.

I am working on having my first OBE. My plan, when I get proficient is to go OBE and then go to a neighbor's house which I have never been in, and upon my return to physical, document what I found. Then I will have a friend who HAS been in the house review and corroborate my data.

I know that OBEs often don't exactly match physical reality but I'm thinking it should be close enough to show some proof points.

This sort of experiment would be pretty solid proof that I visited the house in some manner.

Does anyone know if anyone has tried this?

Volgerle

Quote from: reality_bytes on February 19, 2013, 08:05:26My plan, when I get proficient is to go OBE and then go to a neighbor's house which I have never been in, and upon my return to physical, document what I found. ... This sort of experiment would be pretty solid proof that I visited the house in some manner.
Does anyone know if anyone has tried this?

This kind of validation reminds me of the famous projector Sylvan Muldoon. Quote:

Quote"I have often gone into houses, and noted the things - later going there in the physical, and seeing everything exactly as I saw it in the astral."
- Sylvan Muldoon (Projection Of The Astral Body)

A link to this passage in his book:
http://books.google.de/books?id=Z3hRU7_mCVEC&pg=PR37&dq=Sylvan+Muldoon+%22later+verified%22&hl=en&ei=gsoNTvDqAcjo-gaBueD0Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

reality_bytes

Thanks Volgerle-

That's just what was talking about.

Seems to me that would be irrefutable evidence of a valid experience.

If someone on this board could try this and report back that would be great.

I will do so as soon as I learn how to OBE. I am having lucid dreams about once a week right now but although I can attain lucidity, I have been unable to transition to OBE from there. Any suggestions on that topic would be welcomed.



Astralzombie

Quote from: reality_bytes on February 19, 2013, 16:09:53
Thanks Volgerle-

That's just what was talking about.

Seems to me that would be irrefutable evidence of a valid experience.

If someone on this board could try this and report back that would be great.

I will do so as soon as I learn how to OBE. I am having lucid dreams about once a week right now but although I can attain lucidity, I have been unable to transition to OBE from there. Any suggestions on that topic would be welcomed.

Once you have your awareness it's really a matter of what you want to do next. But for me any time I project from a dream, my experiences are always more colorful. Though I certainly believe in the experience, I won't defend these types as the "real deal" although I certainly believe they are.

During the dream you have to have enough awareness to stop manipulating the dream and actually do "away with it". Then just imagine where you want to go and how you want to get there. There are other ways I'm sure but this is what works for me. This may sound crazy to you but I actually just prefer to stay in the lucid dream as it is and work with in the narrative now. This is because I'm starting to see that there is so much more to a regular "dream" than I believed.

What I think you're mostly interested in is a RTZ projection. These too are the ones I want the most right now. After 12 years, I am just now achieving them with some sort of consistency so my statement of it just being a matter of intent seems to fall short for me as well.

Search through some of LionHeart's posts. He is very good at reaching his desired destinations be it the RTZ or others. As most of us have come to realize, the RTZ can be elusive when we want it.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

reality_bytes

Quote from: its_all_bad on February 19, 2013, 17:12:17

What I think you're mostly interested in is a RTZ projection.

Yes and no.

What I'm really looking for is an OBE type that allows me to validate my experience. I want to KNOW that what I am experiencing is more than just "in my head". At this point I "believe" this is all real but I want to "know it in my bones".

On the other hand, at this point ANY OBE would be a step in the right direction.

Beyond my lucid dreaming, I have had one experience, while listening to a Monroe hemi-sync track, where I had a strange loud buzzing (which at the time I thought was a problem with my headphones) and a bar of bright green light filling the lower third of my visual field. It all lasted for about a minute and I discovered later that it was the pre-cursor to an OBE. Since then, nothing.




Szaxx

There's far more where the eye can't see.
Close your eyes and open your mind.

dadatheking

Wow it has been awhile since I posted this and I am sorry for the delay. But wow am I thankfull for the level headed replies. There is alot to reply to but in this "post reply" screen I cant really go back and look at each post. I do remember someone saying not to tell others and I do agree over my years iv seen how as said "close minded" people are. What confused me was the reference of not knowing much about chakras? Is that out of just never coming across the term or you just dont believe all that. Im just asking off pure curiosity because meditation, the 7 main chakras, the pineal gland, and ascension are were I learnt about OBE. It gets very deep I HIGHLY recommend a good day of researching it. I can honestly say it has explained a few things here and there when I was in the OBE that started this thread. And for people who are strong with science as am I if you get deep into "Ascension" it ties science and beliefs together making a clear image and explains a lot about whats going on with the crazy world we live in.

Also a quick addition/questions what color scheme is your vision during OBEs? In this experience it was exactly how you would think it would be, like something in a movie it was a gloomy darkish blue de-saturated and everything was kinda blurry but not to much just enough to give it a movie look. How do yours look?

And another BIG question. Since this OBE that started this thread, iv had dreams were I have control call, it lucid I dont know but it places (as my brain wants me to think) in some kind of spiritual side of the world I know(familiar places) whether it be an old city I use to live for most my life or in the bathroom right next to me now. But in these dreams I ALWAYS AM FIGHTING!!! Its really exhausting. I can honestly say that besides the OBE in the first post(that was basically neutral and lonely) I never ever am in a good atmosphere its always dark, creepy and filled with evil foes........ This is a two part question. First is do you guys encounter these type of things or are yours more happy? Second is do you guys ever have battles? like energy sorcery battles? I like to compare it to dragon ball z except with a wizard/sorcery feel to it. I what feels like very often get a dream were I am engaged in this type of battle and they are SOO REAL. For example the latest one was simple as my walking up my stairs and when I get to my door I look to the right(which is my bathroom) I notice a fuzzy outline of pure darkness and then BOOM locked in a battle that feels IMPOSSIBLE to win. I try so hard I just cant. I have to manually wake myself up. and let me note that no matter how scary the dream I never am turned to the defensive I always fight back ever since I was little and knew something was weird about my dreams and learned how to move my physical body when dreaming to wake myself up.

sorry for the long posts I am just so happy theres people to talk to without ridicule.

ChopstickFox

I'm glad to hear that you are enjoying yourself here! I agree there's a great bunch of people here.

Regarding chakras, the general consensus is that while it really helps some people, it's not a requirement. People who have never heard the word chakra can still project. Others know about it, but never have felt the need to consciously be aware of them. I for one have learned about them, dabble with them a bit, but don't actively use them when projecting. I really didn't know the lingo when I started with this stuff. However, if someone believes you must use them, they might find it difficult projecting without using them.

My vision varies. Sometimes my vision is blurry, sometimes the colors are super vibrant. I just had one last night that was crazy surreal, haha!

I very often find myself in places I recognize when I'm lucid, even if it is turned into somewhere else entirely. I like to think it has to do with our subconscious pulling in from its folder filled with valid "maps". Kind of like a video game. Just dress it up to be somewhere else. Once I recognized my family's living room, but it had been super stretched and turned into part of a forest. Crazy stuff! :)

I used to have a lot more fighting dreams than I do now. It would literally be fighting tooth and nail (er... or rather claw, since I wasn't human). It wouldn't matter if I was lucid or not. The oddest one was probably a bunch of cooks with cleavers chasing me through a warehouse. I would fight them, but they just wouldn't die. Irritating as anything... Gah! Now I have the every so often one, but for the most part I'm not fighting for my life. Though I wouldn't say that all my dreams/obes are happy bunnies and rainbows. I still get chased or attacked sometimes.

I haven't had an energy battle before, but it sounds interesting. :)

I have always fought back too. Well, I try to run because I don't want to hurt anyone, but when it comes down to it... I don't go down without a fight!

What your sharing doesn't sound too unusual to me. I'm looking forward to other replies. :D

Take to the sky, feeling so alive! Past the clouds to the Milky Way, share our secrets with the starry brigade. The stars surround us like a million fireflies. For once I see infinity... it's in your eyes.

Bedeekin

Quote from: dadatheking on February 21, 2013, 10:02:40
Also a quick addition/questions what color scheme is your vision during OBEs? In this experience it was exactly how you would think it would be, like something in a movie it was a gloomy darkish blue de-saturated and everything was kinda blurry but not to much just enough to give it a movie look. How do yours look?

Sometimes very much like you describe. Sometimes indistinct then when noted can turn ultra HD. Like pushing through a chiffon veil. :)

Quote from: dadatheking on February 21, 2013, 10:02:40
And another BIG question. Since this OBE that started this thread, iv had dreams were I have control call, it lucid I dont know but it places (as my brain wants me to think) in some kind of spiritual side of the world I know(familiar places) whether it be an old city I use to live for most my life or in the bathroom right next to me now. But in these dreams I ALWAYS AM FIGHTING!!! Its really exhausting. I can honestly say that besides the OBE in the first post(that was basically neutral and lonely) I never ever am in a good atmosphere its always dark, creepy and filled with evil foes........ This is a two part question. First is do you guys encounter these type of things or are yours more happy? Second is do you guys ever have battles? like energy sorcery battles? I like to compare it to dragon ball z except with a wizard/sorcery feel to it. I what feels like very often get a dream were I am engaged in this type of battle and they are SOO REAL. For example the latest one was simple as my walking up my stairs and when I get to my door I look to the right(which is my bathroom) I notice a fuzzy outline of pure darkness and then BOOM locked in a battle that feels IMPOSSIBLE to win. I try so hard I just cant. I have to manually wake myself up. and let me note that no matter how scary the dream I never am turned to the defensive I always fight back ever since I was little and knew something was weird about my dreams and learned how to move my physical body when dreaming to wake myself up.

sorry for the long posts I am just so happy theres people to talk to without ridicule.

That's awesome that you don't run.. and stay to defeat the fear monster. It's that sort of tenacity that will allow you to get over fear... just remember that at some point you will not need to fight. Think of Neo in the Matrix... there is no spoon.

Astralzombie

Quote from: reality_bytes on February 20, 2013, 08:24:35
Yes and no.

What I'm really looking for is an OBE type that allows me to validate my experience. I want to KNOW that what I am experiencing is more than just "in my head". At this point I "believe" this is all real but I want to "know it in my bones".

On the other hand, at this point ANY OBE would be a step in the right direction.

Beyond my lucid dreaming, I have had one experience, while listening to a Monroe hemi-sync track, where I had a strange loud buzzing (which at the time I thought was a problem with my headphones) and a bar of bright green light filling the lower third of my visual field. It all lasted for about a minute and I discovered later that it was the pre-cursor to an OBE. Since then, nothing.

Believing that the experience is real certainly helps but it's not a prerequisite. Why we can have an OOBE and where we go or even if we go anywhere is up for debate. What isn't up for debate is that a non physical reality exists independent of our imaginations or not. In other words, whether or not we believe it exists or even if we exist doesn't matter, the non physical reality exists.

Lucid dreaming will do little to validate an experience in the sense you are looking for but don't let that hinder your progress as I did for so many years. Good luck.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

reality_bytes

Quote from: its_all_bad on February 21, 2013, 16:58:37
What isn't up for debate is that a non physical reality exists

The fact that "it isn't up for debate" for you is all well and good, but it IS up for debate with me. I won't truly know this is real until I have the experience.

I "believe" it is real. I want to KNOW it is real. There is a difference.

Astralzombie

#21
Quote from: reality_bytes on February 22, 2013, 17:22:56
The fact that "it isn't up for debate" for you is all well and good, but it IS up for debate with me. I won't truly know this is real until I have the experience.

I "believe" it is real. I want to KNOW it is real. There is a difference.

Sorry, you're right about it being debatable. But I also stated that the non physical reality exists whether or not anybody believes in it. Reality doesn't need beliefs to exist, only our perceptions do. The ability for us to have the experience that is generally considered an OOBE is real as well, regardless of anyone's personal belief. SO you can CLEARLY tell that I KNOW the difference between BELIEVING and KNOWING as well but it appears that you injected some personal frustration and purposely rejected the rest of my statement. Don't stop trying and you will succeed in having the experience that is considered an OOBE but don't be disappointed if it still never validates anything for you.

Some people will never know what to believe and there's nothing wrong with that when the subject at hand isn't black or white.

Don't give up and you'll see for yourself. You have all the healthy skepticism that is needed for a reasonable and rational person and you'll be able to make a decision for yourself that is satisfying. That's probably the best any of us can hope for. Good luck.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

Lionheart

 You really do have to experience it for it to become a truth to you.

Words can only say and describe so much.

Once you experience it, you can deduce what is real and what isn't, according to your own perceptions.

Its_all_bad, why did you target M. Raduga there?

He doesn't question the NPR, he just labels it "the Phase". He knows it takes place in another place, per say.

Astralzombie

#23
I edited it out Lion before I read your post as I realized it wasn't a fair statement. Thanks for the straightening up though.  :-D

I think you realize by now that I am truly trying to mature in many ways and sometimes I need it pointed out to me where I miss seeing it in my self. Thanks and I only want to redirect someone myself when it is clearly deserved. :-D

Raduga does question it's independent existence outside of our own though, doesn't he?
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

Lionheart

 That was not an "attack" on you its_all_bad, that was just a simple question.  :-)

Michael believes in "here and there", that's all the labels we really ever need. He states that we can find cures for cancer and all kinds of thing there.

So does Tom Campbell, who is well known for teaching his techniques of NPR healing, remote viewing and is also well known for his problem solving while in the NPR.