Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Mobius on September 19, 2002, 14:39:43
Post by: Mobius on September 19, 2002, 14:39:43
G,day Dream Speak
Sounds like a slightly different spin on the same information as the washington post article in here, which is not surprising since CNN & Washington Post are owned by the same people.
The misfiring brain cells or some sort of electrical stimulation creating the OBE reminds me of Hemi Sync in a way. Although the Hemi- sync experience DOESN'T come about through directly stimulating the brain through electrodes.
When the information comes from these sources, I start to question, what are they trying to make us think?.........................something more in line with their investments?
Good journeys DS
Mobius![]("http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_8ball.gif")
Sounds like a slightly different spin on the same information as the washington post article in here, which is not surprising since CNN & Washington Post are owned by the same people.
The misfiring brain cells or some sort of electrical stimulation creating the OBE reminds me of Hemi Sync in a way. Although the Hemi- sync experience DOESN'T come about through directly stimulating the brain through electrodes.
When the information comes from these sources, I start to question, what are they trying to make us think?.........................something more in line with their investments?
Good journeys DS
Mobius
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Adrian on September 19, 2002, 17:38:37
Post by: Adrian on September 19, 2002, 17:38:37
Greetings!
This seems to me to be yet another typical example of material world science trying to explain things in material world scientific terms. As I read it, it wasn't accepting that an OBE occured, but rather that it was a hallucination or illusion because that hypothesis is in keeping with their scientific training - i.e. - they were simply not looking at OBE's but faulty brain components.
I am not sure whether they are saying you have to be epileptic or brain damaged to have an OBE naturally - but that was the implication.
It also related to local etheric OBE's. I wonder how they would explain a full blown Astral experience - an overdose of general anaesthetic perhaps?
With best regards,
Adrian.
This seems to me to be yet another typical example of material world science trying to explain things in material world scientific terms. As I read it, it wasn't accepting that an OBE occured, but rather that it was a hallucination or illusion because that hypothesis is in keeping with their scientific training - i.e. - they were simply not looking at OBE's but faulty brain components.
I am not sure whether they are saying you have to be epileptic or brain damaged to have an OBE naturally - but that was the implication.
It also related to local etheric OBE's. I wonder how they would explain a full blown Astral experience - an overdose of general anaesthetic perhaps?
With best regards,
Adrian.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: DreamSpeak on September 19, 2002, 18:37:26
Post by: DreamSpeak on September 19, 2002, 18:37:26
I understand what you're saying, and had similar thoughts. However, I do think that it's good science is actually acknowledging that OBEs of some kind exist. Perhaps science will explain the physical components of astral projection.
Scientists are starting to believe that other dimensions exist, which could be the astral dimensions etc. Perhaps science will one day include things we today call paranormal, or spiritual, as our intellects grow.
DS
Scientists are starting to believe that other dimensions exist, which could be the astral dimensions etc. Perhaps science will one day include things we today call paranormal, or spiritual, as our intellects grow.
DS
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Jeff_Mash on September 19, 2002, 19:55:19
Post by: Jeff_Mash on September 19, 2002, 19:55:19
quote:
"Sometimes patients describe looking down on their own bodies, and that experience is actually an aura or a warning that a seizure is about to occur," said Dr. Cindy Kubu, a neuropsychologist at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. She has worked with patients with epilepsy for more than a decade.
That sentence alone made me roll my eyes and laugh. It neevr ceases to amaze me what the scientific community will grasp at in order to explain the inexplainable.
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://MyJokeMail.com
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Atlas on September 19, 2002, 20:04:41
Post by: Atlas on September 19, 2002, 20:04:41
Hi Mobius
>>When the information comes from these sources, I start to question, what are they trying to make us think?.........................something more in line with their investments?<<
And when this information comes from authors and institutes, what are they trying to make me think? Something in line with their books and $500 courses?
Atlas
>>When the information comes from these sources, I start to question, what are they trying to make us think?.........................something more in line with their investments?<<
And when this information comes from authors and institutes, what are they trying to make me think? Something in line with their books and $500 courses?
Atlas
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Atlas on September 19, 2002, 20:09:40
Post by: Atlas on September 19, 2002, 20:09:40
Jeff
>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes patients describe looking down on their own bodies, and that experience is actually an aura or a warning that a seizure is about to occur," said Dr. Cindy Kubu, a neuropsychologist at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. She has worked with patients with epilepsy for more than a decade.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That sentence alone made me roll my eyes and laugh. It neevr ceases to amaze me what the scientific community will grasp at in order to explain the inexplainable.<<
Why is it unexplainable? Surely there IS an explanation for OBE. Trying to explain it in terms of brain reactions seems just as valid as explaining it through different dimensions and worlds and body doubles, as they're both on about the same footing proof-wise.
Atlas
>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes patients describe looking down on their own bodies, and that experience is actually an aura or a warning that a seizure is about to occur," said Dr. Cindy Kubu, a neuropsychologist at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. She has worked with patients with epilepsy for more than a decade.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That sentence alone made me roll my eyes and laugh. It neevr ceases to amaze me what the scientific community will grasp at in order to explain the inexplainable.<<
Why is it unexplainable? Surely there IS an explanation for OBE. Trying to explain it in terms of brain reactions seems just as valid as explaining it through different dimensions and worlds and body doubles, as they're both on about the same footing proof-wise.
Atlas
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Blossom on September 19, 2002, 21:00:22
Post by: Blossom on September 19, 2002, 21:00:22
Maybe the scientists actually hit on something.
Maybe, when we meditate or have an OBE and have practiced for years trying to have an OBE, we are developing an area of our brain called "the angular gyrus in the right cortex". It doesn't mean it's not real.
Maybe that is the actual area of our physical brain that says.."okay, now the person is adequately prepared and deep enought in a meditative state to OBE", and then it happens.
I don't think this would invalidate the experience or make it less real... Maybe keeping this part of our brain awake while our body sleeps is what causes a conscious OBE. Who know?
I bet though, the woman wishes she could do it without the need for the scientists probing her brain and adding stimilus to areas of it.. She said she wasn't afraid... I bet the experience changed her world..
And thinking she was going to have a seizure because of it,...that is just typical scientist talk...
Blossom
Just wanting to learn....
Maybe, when we meditate or have an OBE and have practiced for years trying to have an OBE, we are developing an area of our brain called "the angular gyrus in the right cortex". It doesn't mean it's not real.
Maybe that is the actual area of our physical brain that says.."okay, now the person is adequately prepared and deep enought in a meditative state to OBE", and then it happens.
I don't think this would invalidate the experience or make it less real... Maybe keeping this part of our brain awake while our body sleeps is what causes a conscious OBE. Who know?
I bet though, the woman wishes she could do it without the need for the scientists probing her brain and adding stimilus to areas of it.. She said she wasn't afraid... I bet the experience changed her world..
And thinking she was going to have a seizure because of it,...that is just typical scientist talk...
Blossom
Just wanting to learn....
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Adrian on September 20, 2002, 03:25:48
Post by: Adrian on September 20, 2002, 03:25:48
Greetings Blossom!
I think it more likely that, in this particular person, the procedures being used triggered the projection reflex. I don't think it is anything to do with altered states of consciousness which are nothing to do with the organic brain.
What amuses me is the way scientists and doctors always try to rationalise these things in material science terms - anything but accept the reality.
It is the same with healing generally. Almost all medical conditions, however serious, originate in the subtle bodies, and can often be "seen" in the Aura and/or Chakra centres. The throat Chakra is of particular interest. Modern medicine alas, being oblivious or dismissive of these things would much sonner pull out a scalpel of syringe, or throw drugs into people - it is all they know right now for the most part.
With best regards,
Adrian.
I think it more likely that, in this particular person, the procedures being used triggered the projection reflex. I don't think it is anything to do with altered states of consciousness which are nothing to do with the organic brain.
What amuses me is the way scientists and doctors always try to rationalise these things in material science terms - anything but accept the reality.
It is the same with healing generally. Almost all medical conditions, however serious, originate in the subtle bodies, and can often be "seen" in the Aura and/or Chakra centres. The throat Chakra is of particular interest. Modern medicine alas, being oblivious or dismissive of these things would much sonner pull out a scalpel of syringe, or throw drugs into people - it is all they know right now for the most part.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: James S on September 20, 2002, 04:33:10
Post by: James S on September 20, 2002, 04:33:10
I think there is something in both what Blossom and what Adrian has said. They have both made valid points.
It is easy for people like us who have come to know the workings of our astral body through metaphysical practices to dismiss scientific exploration into the same area using physical practices. But if we scoff at them for trying to explain away things using material science, doesn't that make us just as bad as they are?
Wouldn't scientists be surprised if they discovered that the "the angular gyrus in the right cortex" is actually capable of producing an EM waveform that engages a mechanism within the physical body that allows the astral body to separate.
Wouldn't psychics and metaphysical practitioners be surprised if in the process of researching parts of the human brain, scientists develop a device that allows the human astral body to be measured, analysed and quantified, to the point where they can not only see and measure the astral body, they can track its movement in and out of the physical world.
Lets face it, are not the laws of physics part of the universal laws? Is it not possible that our energy bodies have to obey the same laws of physics just like other form of energy? Therefore once those laws are known, our energy bodies would be quantifiable.
The problem at the moment though is that researchers are making statements and forming conclusions on subjects like OBEs by comparing their observations to current empirical data using current methodologies and scientific philosophies. They're trying to perform microsurgery blindfolded using carving knives and knitting needles. Current scientific philosophies are unfortunately prone to excluding that which cannot be observed, measured and recorded.
It would be good though to be able to give these researches some form of encouragement, and see if they can't be persuaded to leave the rule book behind and look at something with true objectivity.
Taking the middle ground...
James.
It is easy for people like us who have come to know the workings of our astral body through metaphysical practices to dismiss scientific exploration into the same area using physical practices. But if we scoff at them for trying to explain away things using material science, doesn't that make us just as bad as they are?
Wouldn't scientists be surprised if they discovered that the "the angular gyrus in the right cortex" is actually capable of producing an EM waveform that engages a mechanism within the physical body that allows the astral body to separate.
Wouldn't psychics and metaphysical practitioners be surprised if in the process of researching parts of the human brain, scientists develop a device that allows the human astral body to be measured, analysed and quantified, to the point where they can not only see and measure the astral body, they can track its movement in and out of the physical world.
Lets face it, are not the laws of physics part of the universal laws? Is it not possible that our energy bodies have to obey the same laws of physics just like other form of energy? Therefore once those laws are known, our energy bodies would be quantifiable.
The problem at the moment though is that researchers are making statements and forming conclusions on subjects like OBEs by comparing their observations to current empirical data using current methodologies and scientific philosophies. They're trying to perform microsurgery blindfolded using carving knives and knitting needles. Current scientific philosophies are unfortunately prone to excluding that which cannot be observed, measured and recorded.
It would be good though to be able to give these researches some form of encouragement, and see if they can't be persuaded to leave the rule book behind and look at something with true objectivity.
Taking the middle ground...
James.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on September 20, 2002, 05:13:04
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on September 20, 2002, 05:13:04
I agree with James. There is no reason to be harse against science. You must realize that these are scientists and that they must go on scientific fact. So they have to start with what they know. They may well find a part of the brain associated with projecting. But sadly they will probably always see it as an illusion and not real. But being science I would have it no other way, because it needs proof to accept it. If it did not need proof it would no longer be science but a religion. I am not exactly sure how scientists could ever measure or see the astral body as I have never read anything on the physical being able to interact with the astral body. I mean people can go to the sun or be around nuclear explosions and not be effected.
This article is much better than the one in the Washington Post.
This article is much better than the one in the Washington Post.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on September 20, 2002, 05:19:48
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on September 20, 2002, 05:19:48
I wanted to add, I personally hope that science continues to believe that astral projection is just an illusion and can never find a way to interact with our astral bodies from the physical. Can you imagine what terrible things could happen with this in the hands of our corrupt politicians, leaders, and military?
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Adrian on September 20, 2002, 06:33:16
Post by: Adrian on September 20, 2002, 06:33:16
Greetings!
Well I would be the last to scoff at scientists as I use to be one - an organic and physical chemist before I was lured into the world of high-tech 20+ years ago.
But the reality of it is, I think, is that we at least remain open minded and learn from our experiences, as evidenced by our discussions here. We do not, or should not, accept anything that we do not know to be true. of course everyone's truth might be slighlty different, but nevertheless all a fundamantal part of the same truths - Spiritual Truths, commencing with the acceptance of the continuity of life as eternal Spirits after the death of the physical body.
I think this is one of the very biggest hurdles to overcome. If we can establish to humanity generally that we continue to exist after physical death, and that how we live out physical lives has a profound impact on what happens after physical death, then we can move forward.
Medicine is so busy trying to treat the material body, when in fact most dis-eases originate from the subtler bodies in one way or another, and also due to such things as an imbalance in the elements - not the elements recognised by science of course. Doctors accordingly go straight for pathological and neorolgical causes for transcendent experiences, and cannot see beyond that in most cases. There are great exceptions of course, as with our neuro-surgeon brother Dr.T, currently with little Maoli who is receiving a fantastic combination of advanced medical and subtle body treatments.
On the CNN article we are discussing specifically - it seems to me that the doctors are refusing to accept the possibility of an OBE at all, trying to explain it away in medical terms. Even here, despite some disagreement, we at least all accept the fact the petient is experiencing an OBE - how the OBE is triggered in the context of themedical treatment is largely irrelevant and moot.
With kind regards,
Adrian.
Well I would be the last to scoff at scientists as I use to be one - an organic and physical chemist before I was lured into the world of high-tech 20+ years ago.
But the reality of it is, I think, is that we at least remain open minded and learn from our experiences, as evidenced by our discussions here. We do not, or should not, accept anything that we do not know to be true. of course everyone's truth might be slighlty different, but nevertheless all a fundamantal part of the same truths - Spiritual Truths, commencing with the acceptance of the continuity of life as eternal Spirits after the death of the physical body.
I think this is one of the very biggest hurdles to overcome. If we can establish to humanity generally that we continue to exist after physical death, and that how we live out physical lives has a profound impact on what happens after physical death, then we can move forward.
Medicine is so busy trying to treat the material body, when in fact most dis-eases originate from the subtler bodies in one way or another, and also due to such things as an imbalance in the elements - not the elements recognised by science of course. Doctors accordingly go straight for pathological and neorolgical causes for transcendent experiences, and cannot see beyond that in most cases. There are great exceptions of course, as with our neuro-surgeon brother Dr.T, currently with little Maoli who is receiving a fantastic combination of advanced medical and subtle body treatments.
On the CNN article we are discussing specifically - it seems to me that the doctors are refusing to accept the possibility of an OBE at all, trying to explain it away in medical terms. Even here, despite some disagreement, we at least all accept the fact the petient is experiencing an OBE - how the OBE is triggered in the context of themedical treatment is largely irrelevant and moot.
With kind regards,
Adrian.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Mobius on September 20, 2002, 22:31:16
Post by: Mobius on September 20, 2002, 22:31:16
Hi all
Been away from this topic for a couple of days & looks like there was some interesting talk that eventuated from it, all good.
G,day Atlas, hey you don't know how similar I think to you, if it wasn't for me experiencing all these things like OBE's & such from a kid, I would have the same opinion. I love science & wouldn't be without it & look with keen interest at all the amazing things they do. As you have seen others like Adrian, Fallen angel & James are also either trained in science or a big science fan.
But it's the slavish one eyed approach they use & when they totally rule out that other possibilities exist which peeves people because they know that the people who deal out the money through grants etc want the scientists to operate under certain guidlines & are not allowed to think outside a square. I suspect many scientists wish they could operate inside the parameters of their occupation but also acknowledge that there is an outside of the parameters of which they are working in.
Btw, last time I checked, Robert bruce or the monroe institute & family aren't the majority shareholders in CNN , Washinton Post & New York times & I doubt they are wealthy enough to fund a scientific research program or build massive research labs, nor would they want to. It's true that Robert & many have a book on OBE's but they are a minority amongst the mainstream media or ar spiritual institution such as religions have.
I can't comment too much on TMI, as I havn't actually been there & don't fully understand what happens there or know why they charge so much for the courses at TMI. It does seem expensive, but from all accounts I've seen, about 80% to 90% seem to be very happy with their experience there. That's a pretty good average. Also if Major general Albert Stubblebine the INSCOM commander sent military personnel to TMI, including the much respected Joe McMoneagle, I figure it's worth a look. After going there many military personnel purchased all sorts of hemi sync tapes & some have constant contact with TMI since.
The issue of the price of the cd's is another thing alltogether. As a musician who writes, records, makes & markets my cd's, I know the risk or overcharging for something. If it's too high nobody will buy it,also if there is similar artists that also have cd's out, I have to be competitive with their price. If I have something that actually works but has a relatively small competitive field like hemi-sync, I can set my price to something much higher but something that the public will still feel it's too good NOT to buy (frank said something similar to this not long ago).
The problem I see with Hemi-sync as far as price goes is similar to computer & console games. When you price them so high, it tempts people to exploit the cd's through piracy & sell them to others as an inferior copy, but none the less CHEAPER. I doubt TMI has the money or resources to employ the staff required to police the piracy of Cd's. So something has to happen, before everyone rushes out to buy a copy & are then disappointed that it doesn't have the same content as the originals distributed by TMI. Btw, I'm not a hemi-sync dealer or have a vested interest in them.
Good journeys guys
Mobius
Been away from this topic for a couple of days & looks like there was some interesting talk that eventuated from it, all good.
G,day Atlas, hey you don't know how similar I think to you, if it wasn't for me experiencing all these things like OBE's & such from a kid, I would have the same opinion. I love science & wouldn't be without it & look with keen interest at all the amazing things they do. As you have seen others like Adrian, Fallen angel & James are also either trained in science or a big science fan.
But it's the slavish one eyed approach they use & when they totally rule out that other possibilities exist which peeves people because they know that the people who deal out the money through grants etc want the scientists to operate under certain guidlines & are not allowed to think outside a square. I suspect many scientists wish they could operate inside the parameters of their occupation but also acknowledge that there is an outside of the parameters of which they are working in.
Btw, last time I checked, Robert bruce or the monroe institute & family aren't the majority shareholders in CNN , Washinton Post & New York times & I doubt they are wealthy enough to fund a scientific research program or build massive research labs, nor would they want to. It's true that Robert & many have a book on OBE's but they are a minority amongst the mainstream media or ar spiritual institution such as religions have.
I can't comment too much on TMI, as I havn't actually been there & don't fully understand what happens there or know why they charge so much for the courses at TMI. It does seem expensive, but from all accounts I've seen, about 80% to 90% seem to be very happy with their experience there. That's a pretty good average. Also if Major general Albert Stubblebine the INSCOM commander sent military personnel to TMI, including the much respected Joe McMoneagle, I figure it's worth a look. After going there many military personnel purchased all sorts of hemi sync tapes & some have constant contact with TMI since.
The issue of the price of the cd's is another thing alltogether. As a musician who writes, records, makes & markets my cd's, I know the risk or overcharging for something. If it's too high nobody will buy it,also if there is similar artists that also have cd's out, I have to be competitive with their price. If I have something that actually works but has a relatively small competitive field like hemi-sync, I can set my price to something much higher but something that the public will still feel it's too good NOT to buy (frank said something similar to this not long ago).
The problem I see with Hemi-sync as far as price goes is similar to computer & console games. When you price them so high, it tempts people to exploit the cd's through piracy & sell them to others as an inferior copy, but none the less CHEAPER. I doubt TMI has the money or resources to employ the staff required to police the piracy of Cd's. So something has to happen, before everyone rushes out to buy a copy & are then disappointed that it doesn't have the same content as the originals distributed by TMI. Btw, I'm not a hemi-sync dealer or have a vested interest in them.
Good journeys guys
Mobius
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: josemi on September 21, 2002, 05:51:10
Post by: josemi on September 21, 2002, 05:51:10
about obes research there is an institute dedicated to it the www.iipc.org proyectiology and conscienciology institute, that gives courses to have obes but i think that 1 its a bussiness to get money from people and 2 its a kind of sect that worships the figure of the founder, a brazilian doctor
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: michael on September 21, 2002, 07:49:39
Post by: michael on September 21, 2002, 07:49:39
I totally disagree with the last post..I am totally against Guruism and have attended many courses at the IIPC..they most certainly do NOT worship at the feet of Vieira..I wouldnt endorse any sort of cultic thing like that....perhaps the last poster can indicate how many courses attended??
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Daniel on September 21, 2002, 08:11:44
Post by: Daniel on September 21, 2002, 08:11:44
Josemi,
As a student of the IAC http://www.iacworld.org (former IIPC) I would like to ask you josemi, have you done any IAC courses or read for example the treatise of OBE called Projectiology? If not, who are you to think such things as Conscientiology is for the money or that it's based on worship.
It's much more serious than that. La cosa és mucho más séria.
So I would advice you to read from the IAC page for example the research projects of IAC before you manifest your prejudices here.
Regards,
Goldmundo
As a student of the IAC http://www.iacworld.org (former IIPC) I would like to ask you josemi, have you done any IAC courses or read for example the treatise of OBE called Projectiology? If not, who are you to think such things as Conscientiology is for the money or that it's based on worship.
It's much more serious than that. La cosa és mucho más séria.
So I would advice you to read from the IAC page for example the research projects of IAC before you manifest your prejudices here.
Regards,
Goldmundo
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Mobius on September 21, 2002, 19:18:12
Post by: Mobius on September 21, 2002, 19:18:12
Hi Michael & Goldmundo
Just a couple of questions I hope you guys can ask. I've been watching the IIPC website for a few years now, I like it, but as yet havn't got around to any of their courses as I'm preoccupied with a few others at present.
Q1) Do you guys know if IIPC is in anyway related to OBERF ? Not that I think it is good or bad if they are, it's just for my own personal reference.
http://www.oberf.org
Q2) Have any of you guys got the 1232 page projectiology book for sale through IIPC? I'm a bit of a book enthusiast & the book looks awesome. If you have the book, how did you get it? over the net? or get your bookstore to order it in? Or none of the above.
Q3) When you guys did your course through IIPC, was it an online one? or did you do a workshop? And what was the cost when you did it?
Good journeys all
Mobius
Just a couple of questions I hope you guys can ask. I've been watching the IIPC website for a few years now, I like it, but as yet havn't got around to any of their courses as I'm preoccupied with a few others at present.
Q1) Do you guys know if IIPC is in anyway related to OBERF ? Not that I think it is good or bad if they are, it's just for my own personal reference.
http://www.oberf.org
Q2) Have any of you guys got the 1232 page projectiology book for sale through IIPC? I'm a bit of a book enthusiast & the book looks awesome. If you have the book, how did you get it? over the net? or get your bookstore to order it in? Or none of the above.
Q3) When you guys did your course through IIPC, was it an online one? or did you do a workshop? And what was the cost when you did it?
Good journeys all
Mobius
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: josemi on September 22, 2002, 08:31:34
Post by: josemi on September 22, 2002, 08:31:34
i recognize that i dont know the iipc in deepness. but ive expressed the impression it gave me once when i attended a conference of three people (coming from barcelona, at 350 km from my town) and i was the only person in the public. ive been receiving propaganda of the insititute and i have no interest on their courses because they offer you 6 courses i believe , of 90 dollars each one, and you have to do 4 of them to know how to project.
im sure that i can get the same information very much cheaper, for example with the books of bruce.
the institute has some facilities in the catarates of the iguazu i believe dedicated to the research of the obes.
i suppose that their activities will be interesting and that it will be a help for many people, but im sorry, it isnt for me. it seemed to me a bit sectary.
im sure that i can get the same information very much cheaper, for example with the books of bruce.
the institute has some facilities in the catarates of the iguazu i believe dedicated to the research of the obes.
i suppose that their activities will be interesting and that it will be a help for many people, but im sorry, it isnt for me. it seemed to me a bit sectary.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: josemi on September 22, 2002, 08:41:59
Post by: josemi on September 22, 2002, 08:41:59
ill add another thing: when the representants of the iipc from barcelona came to zaragoza, i advised them the best places in the town to make their activities, because they asked me, and they unknew where to make their next conferences and courses. i treated them as kindly as i could. but their system doesnt convince me.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Adrian on September 22, 2002, 09:59:08
Post by: Adrian on September 22, 2002, 09:59:08
Greetings!
I wouldn't comment on individual organisations, because everyone has the freewill both to make products and services available for money, and people to accept them on that basis.
I would say though that I am fundamentally opposed to charging for any service that is for the benefit of mankind, its Spiritual evolution, the planet and all life thereon. OBE's Astral projection, altered states of consciousness, meditation to name but just a few, are all part of the Spiritual progression of humanity,and is the property of us all - or should be.
Those that seek to offer a progressive series of courses, often which are mutually conditional would, in my view, have a very hard job to justify that.
Many would say that the money thus obtained is used in the production of further materials CDROM's, tapes etc... I had just such a situation recently in fact where I wanted to make some historically valuable recordings available in MP3 format for free download, sought the permission of the trustees, and was turned down flat in the basis it would be depriving them of income to make more tapes.
My point to them was that the Internet is the ultimate physical distribution medium, and by making the sound files freely available in MP3 format, potentially millions of people would benefit, and there are no production costs. They just would not have it though - they just could not free themselves from the materialism of money and tapes, despite restricting their products to a very small potential audience.
There is no doubt that the Spiritual progression of humanity can and should be absolutely free, and available to as many people as possible on a totally unrestricted basis by all those in a position to provide and share it, and are prepared to do so - and there are no shortage of such people thankfully.
I would suggest that before anyone spends a penny, cent etc. on commercially available products, they should ask the questions right here or similar information sources first, and the answers will be forthcoming.
With kind regards,
Adrian.
I wouldn't comment on individual organisations, because everyone has the freewill both to make products and services available for money, and people to accept them on that basis.
I would say though that I am fundamentally opposed to charging for any service that is for the benefit of mankind, its Spiritual evolution, the planet and all life thereon. OBE's Astral projection, altered states of consciousness, meditation to name but just a few, are all part of the Spiritual progression of humanity,and is the property of us all - or should be.
Those that seek to offer a progressive series of courses, often which are mutually conditional would, in my view, have a very hard job to justify that.
Many would say that the money thus obtained is used in the production of further materials CDROM's, tapes etc... I had just such a situation recently in fact where I wanted to make some historically valuable recordings available in MP3 format for free download, sought the permission of the trustees, and was turned down flat in the basis it would be depriving them of income to make more tapes.
My point to them was that the Internet is the ultimate physical distribution medium, and by making the sound files freely available in MP3 format, potentially millions of people would benefit, and there are no production costs. They just would not have it though - they just could not free themselves from the materialism of money and tapes, despite restricting their products to a very small potential audience.
There is no doubt that the Spiritual progression of humanity can and should be absolutely free, and available to as many people as possible on a totally unrestricted basis by all those in a position to provide and share it, and are prepared to do so - and there are no shortage of such people thankfully.
I would suggest that before anyone spends a penny, cent etc. on commercially available products, they should ask the questions right here or similar information sources first, and the answers will be forthcoming.
With kind regards,
Adrian.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Patty on September 22, 2002, 23:06:51
Post by: Patty on September 22, 2002, 23:06:51
Hi,
I'm a scientist. PhD in genetics.
I read the article and don't see anywhere that it indicates that OBE is not a spiritual experience. It simply is able to say that there is a brain - chemistry or brain - firing thing going on.
Elsewhere, it has also been shown that transcendant experiences during deep meditation correlate with decreased blood flow to the frontal lobe/cortex (don't know the jargon). this is the area of the brain that normally regulates our sense of how our self relates spatially to our environment. This might explain why transcendant experiences include elements of no environment, spacelessness, etc.
These advances in understanding most certainly do NOT say that the experiences do not have a spiritual component. I know that I am in part physical. I believe that my physicality is beautifully integrated with my other aspects, which are less 'measurable.' Given this (hypothetical) integration, I would expect a physical aspect to any spiritual experience.
Did anyone follow that? It is rather in line with Blossom's post.
(Adrian, it seems there must be a story behind your change in career! I'd love to hear about it! My personal course got re-charted after the death of our first child.)
Patty
I'm a scientist. PhD in genetics.
I read the article and don't see anywhere that it indicates that OBE is not a spiritual experience. It simply is able to say that there is a brain - chemistry or brain - firing thing going on.
Elsewhere, it has also been shown that transcendant experiences during deep meditation correlate with decreased blood flow to the frontal lobe/cortex (don't know the jargon). this is the area of the brain that normally regulates our sense of how our self relates spatially to our environment. This might explain why transcendant experiences include elements of no environment, spacelessness, etc.
These advances in understanding most certainly do NOT say that the experiences do not have a spiritual component. I know that I am in part physical. I believe that my physicality is beautifully integrated with my other aspects, which are less 'measurable.' Given this (hypothetical) integration, I would expect a physical aspect to any spiritual experience.
Did anyone follow that? It is rather in line with Blossom's post.
(Adrian, it seems there must be a story behind your change in career! I'd love to hear about it! My personal course got re-charted after the death of our first child.)
Patty
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Mobius on September 23, 2002, 04:59:03
Post by: Mobius on September 23, 2002, 04:59:03
Hi Patty
I'm a human being, PHd in life, currently serving my aprrenticeship in OBE's.
Do you believe what we do for a living has an effect on being able to acheive OBE's? Not sure what you meant by your opening statement, but sounds like you are either offended by something said or feel that telling people your qualifications will add more weight to your words? Could be my mistake though, on how I interpreted what you said.
Personally, I love science, so much so that I am currently studying genetics myself, what a coincidence, hehe. Although I'm only in my 2nd year & seriously considering changing tack, I have really enjoyed it. I don't see why science & OBE's are so far apart on this topic, when some elements in quantum mechanics/physics & astro physics are accepted ahead of any proof besides a hypothesis. Yet the possibilty of their suggestions are not ruled out as ONE possible explanation.
Btw looks like we have another science fan that has entered astal pulse, welcome eukaryote, another person searching for the human equivalent of the big bang eh? Another Btw, have you guys read any of calos casteneda books or the book "the cosmic serpent" by Jeremy Narby? Investigating why cultures believed the serpent or snake was such a prominent & re-occuring theme in their beliefs.
The shamans in a tribe of the amazon stated that there where many tiny serpents inside us, in fact, inside many organisms (looks like the kundalini/medical symbol, the serpent also revered by aboriginies,asians & south americans). That communicated with each other, which matches up pretty well with what we know as DNA & RNA, (something that looks like 2 serpents intertwined, ). Which also happens to look very similar to the milky way.
Neither OBE specialists OR scientists have all the answers, but if they worked together, or pooled ideas/theories together, the picture might become clearer for ALL.
Good journeys Patty
Mobius
I'm a human being, PHd in life, currently serving my aprrenticeship in OBE's.
Do you believe what we do for a living has an effect on being able to acheive OBE's? Not sure what you meant by your opening statement, but sounds like you are either offended by something said or feel that telling people your qualifications will add more weight to your words? Could be my mistake though, on how I interpreted what you said.
Personally, I love science, so much so that I am currently studying genetics myself, what a coincidence, hehe. Although I'm only in my 2nd year & seriously considering changing tack, I have really enjoyed it. I don't see why science & OBE's are so far apart on this topic, when some elements in quantum mechanics/physics & astro physics are accepted ahead of any proof besides a hypothesis. Yet the possibilty of their suggestions are not ruled out as ONE possible explanation.
Btw looks like we have another science fan that has entered astal pulse, welcome eukaryote, another person searching for the human equivalent of the big bang eh? Another Btw, have you guys read any of calos casteneda books or the book "the cosmic serpent" by Jeremy Narby? Investigating why cultures believed the serpent or snake was such a prominent & re-occuring theme in their beliefs.
The shamans in a tribe of the amazon stated that there where many tiny serpents inside us, in fact, inside many organisms (looks like the kundalini/medical symbol, the serpent also revered by aboriginies,asians & south americans). That communicated with each other, which matches up pretty well with what we know as DNA & RNA, (something that looks like 2 serpents intertwined, ). Which also happens to look very similar to the milky way.
Neither OBE specialists OR scientists have all the answers, but if they worked together, or pooled ideas/theories together, the picture might become clearer for ALL.
Good journeys Patty
Mobius
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: clandestino on September 23, 2002, 05:44:46
Post by: clandestino on September 23, 2002, 05:44:46
hey Mobius, I think Patty has a great point - and it is good to see it backed up with her credentials....
The results of the nature study tell us that when a particular part of the brain is stimulated, an OBE might occur.
It does NOT tell us whether or not it was a spiritual experience, whether the mind is seperate from the brain, or whether the whole experience was internally generated.....these things are merely conjecture.
The results of the nature study tell us that when a particular part of the brain is stimulated, an OBE might occur.
It does NOT tell us whether or not it was a spiritual experience, whether the mind is seperate from the brain, or whether the whole experience was internally generated.....these things are merely conjecture.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Frank on September 23, 2002, 07:09:27
Post by: Frank on September 23, 2002, 07:09:27
The major flaw that I see in their thinking, is the thrust of their approach. They always seem to come from the POV that obe's are not a "real" phenomena, i.e. they are just some kind of mind created illusion, and that is what they set out to prove. To my mind, that is a big mistake.
I explained in one of my very early posts about how, around 20 years ago, I came across the subject when I just happened to see Monroe's JOB in the window of a newly-opened New-Age bookstore in the vicinity of where I was living at the time. For some reason (and now, of course, I know the reason) I felt compelled to buy the book out of sheer curiosity. Which was strange because there's no way you'd ever find me in a shop like that (not even now) least of all buying some obe mumbo jumbo.
I read the book through a number of times. After which my sense of logic said to me this is complete nonsense; but my curiousity had been ignited to the extent where I thought, well, what if it isn't.
So I fought myself for a while and came to a conclusion. I thought, right, let's assume that everything written in this book, as amazing and as loony as it may seem, let's assume it is all real. So, I'll give these exercises a genuine try, over a reasonable period of time, and, if it is just a load of mystical mumbo-jumbo then nothing will happen.
Well, much to my surprise, I began to get projection symptoms and I never looked back. Which is why I feel that if these scientists would spend just one ounce of effort actually attempting obe for themselves, many of them would finally start to get an inkling of what people such as myself have been going on about all this time.
They are looking for proof alright, but they are looking in the wrong direction. They should be looking within themselves as opposed to looking without.
Yours,
Frank
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Patty on September 23, 2002, 08:20:29
Post by: Patty on September 23, 2002, 08:20:29
Hi Mobius,
My opening comment was in response to the idea that 'scientists are going about this the wrong way,' or that 'scientists are trying to disprove OBE,' et cetera. "Scientists" are not a group separate from "OBE'ers." I am reading some comments that sound like 'they' are wrong and I am trying to make the point that there is no 'they.'
I don't see scientists doing anything but seeking to understand that part of transcendant experience that can actually be measured.
Good regards,
Patty
My opening comment was in response to the idea that 'scientists are going about this the wrong way,' or that 'scientists are trying to disprove OBE,' et cetera. "Scientists" are not a group separate from "OBE'ers." I am reading some comments that sound like 'they' are wrong and I am trying to make the point that there is no 'they.'
I don't see scientists doing anything but seeking to understand that part of transcendant experience that can actually be measured.
Good regards,
Patty
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Gandalf on September 23, 2002, 16:53:45
Post by: Gandalf on September 23, 2002, 16:53:45
This discusion is similar to the other one concerning the effects of Electro-Magnetic fields on the brain and how it induces the 'illusion' of paranormal experiences.
As I said in another post, scientists recently discovered that by exposing subjects to EM fields they were able to induce partial obes, feelings of presences etc.
The scientists of course went on to state that this explains all facets of paranormal experiences, however as usual they didnt stop to think that just because they have noted the physical effects of an experience that DOES NOT nececerialy lead one to conclude that it is the SOURCE of that experience.
I can see how EM fields can produce such effects as well.
It makes sense to me that the subtle bodies are kept in alignment with the physical most likely by using some kind of magnetic attraction, so of course being exposed to certain EM fields can lead to them being pulled 'out of alignment' to an extent, exposing the subject to low level astral experiences,
then the presences, partial obes and all the rest of it come in to play.
Subjects often state that the experience is quite frightning.
Their fears will certainly affect them due to the nature of the astral.
The basic problem here, as always is that scientists always try to explain things according to material knowns and this always skews their results.
Don't get me wrong, I like science and we wouldnt be here on this forum without it, we need it.
But scientsts should stick to what they're good at, explaning and researching aspects of the physical world, they should leave everything else alone!
Regards,
Douglas
As I said in another post, scientists recently discovered that by exposing subjects to EM fields they were able to induce partial obes, feelings of presences etc.
The scientists of course went on to state that this explains all facets of paranormal experiences, however as usual they didnt stop to think that just because they have noted the physical effects of an experience that DOES NOT nececerialy lead one to conclude that it is the SOURCE of that experience.
I can see how EM fields can produce such effects as well.
It makes sense to me that the subtle bodies are kept in alignment with the physical most likely by using some kind of magnetic attraction, so of course being exposed to certain EM fields can lead to them being pulled 'out of alignment' to an extent, exposing the subject to low level astral experiences,
then the presences, partial obes and all the rest of it come in to play.
Subjects often state that the experience is quite frightning.
Their fears will certainly affect them due to the nature of the astral.
The basic problem here, as always is that scientists always try to explain things according to material knowns and this always skews their results.
Don't get me wrong, I like science and we wouldnt be here on this forum without it, we need it.
But scientsts should stick to what they're good at, explaning and researching aspects of the physical world, they should leave everything else alone!
Regards,
Douglas
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Mobius on September 23, 2002, 18:24:45
Post by: Mobius on September 23, 2002, 18:24:45
Hi Patty
Ahhh, ok, now I see where your coming from. It is true that many scientists believe that OBE's are a reality & some professionals such a lawyers, psychiatrists, doctors & scientists have written books concerning OBE's.
Everyone has their own beliefs & passions outside of their respective modes of employment, but rarely are these beliefs allowed to surface INSIDE the parameters of each of these professions, in fact the norm is to NOT to accept it & set about proving that point. How many colleagues, lecturers, doctors etc. have you mentioned OBE's to? & been taken seriously?
I guess saying "scientists" & "they" IS a generalisation & everyone is different. However anything regarded as spiritual such as OBE's remains mostly in the ten foot pole department as far as science goes, with very few scientists, doctors etc considering it a real possibility. Even if they DO, they are almost forced to conform to the ideology of their peers & predecessors. So they write papers with this in mind, so as not to step on any toes & to at least get someone to look at their study.
Science pretty much came about because people wanted another explanation for how things work besides the usual religous response of "It's Gods work" or "It's the work of the devil", which is great for determining the processes of something, but science seems to throw the baby out with the bathwater, going the long way around to finally find themselves back at the point where they should have been in the first place, trying to PROVE OBE's not DISPROVE them.
Why couldn't the scientists involved in this article try & corroborate the theory that that woman WAS out of her body, with experiments similar to what Charles T Tart & Dr Robert Morris did, when they said "ok, you believe you are having OBE's & leaving your body?, tell us what is in that room over there". Performing tests with ALL possibilities in mind, not just science based knowledge & assumptions. Even ask the patient if she saw anything that couldn't be seen from her bed, instead of following one set of assumptions, that somehow her epilepsy triggered it & so it must be some neurological anomaly, related to her epilepsy.
Here is an example of what I mean when I say that scientists/ doctors working AGAINST each other instead of with each other for the benefit of all.
After having a bad accident in which my spine was badly damaged, I thought to myself "I just want to find the best person for the job of fixing me". I went to Neurosurgeons & Orthopaedic surgeons trying to determine which method would be best for ME, as both could perform the operation I needed. When I told them I had asked another specialists opinion, they were fervent in their dismissal of the other proffesions abilities. ALL said, "Oh don't get a blah blah blah surgeon to do it, they wouldn't have a clue".
My point being, HOW can scientists/ doctors come around to acknowledging something completely outside of their field such as OBE's, when they don't even acknowledge the work & theories of others within the same disipline such as medicine or science of which they are part of?.......................money.
The ONLY article that was open minded in it's language regarding the phenomena of OBE's was the article that density posted, the other articles had a fairly dismissive tone about them, that's how I perceived it anyway.
If science & doctors did something similar to what Frank said, stop & look within for a moment & try OBE's for themselves, maybe they would have a different perspective.
Clandestino, do we need to see everyones resume/CV/credentials to believe what they say? Or feel that more weight is added to those words simply by them stating their qualifications?I know I don't. If we were talking about genetics, then yes. I hope Jesus or Buddha doesn't reincarnate too soon, as the world we have created would mean that they are treated like the Dalai lama is at present by politicians & power mongers, with token jestures & lip service & not even that in many cases. Anyway, Patty cleared up that matter in regards to the position taken or viewpoint, all taken care of, thanks for that.
Good journeys all
Mobius
Ahhh, ok, now I see where your coming from. It is true that many scientists believe that OBE's are a reality & some professionals such a lawyers, psychiatrists, doctors & scientists have written books concerning OBE's.
Everyone has their own beliefs & passions outside of their respective modes of employment, but rarely are these beliefs allowed to surface INSIDE the parameters of each of these professions, in fact the norm is to NOT to accept it & set about proving that point. How many colleagues, lecturers, doctors etc. have you mentioned OBE's to? & been taken seriously?
I guess saying "scientists" & "they" IS a generalisation & everyone is different. However anything regarded as spiritual such as OBE's remains mostly in the ten foot pole department as far as science goes, with very few scientists, doctors etc considering it a real possibility. Even if they DO, they are almost forced to conform to the ideology of their peers & predecessors. So they write papers with this in mind, so as not to step on any toes & to at least get someone to look at their study.
Science pretty much came about because people wanted another explanation for how things work besides the usual religous response of "It's Gods work" or "It's the work of the devil", which is great for determining the processes of something, but science seems to throw the baby out with the bathwater, going the long way around to finally find themselves back at the point where they should have been in the first place, trying to PROVE OBE's not DISPROVE them.
Why couldn't the scientists involved in this article try & corroborate the theory that that woman WAS out of her body, with experiments similar to what Charles T Tart & Dr Robert Morris did, when they said "ok, you believe you are having OBE's & leaving your body?, tell us what is in that room over there". Performing tests with ALL possibilities in mind, not just science based knowledge & assumptions. Even ask the patient if she saw anything that couldn't be seen from her bed, instead of following one set of assumptions, that somehow her epilepsy triggered it & so it must be some neurological anomaly, related to her epilepsy.
Here is an example of what I mean when I say that scientists/ doctors working AGAINST each other instead of with each other for the benefit of all.
After having a bad accident in which my spine was badly damaged, I thought to myself "I just want to find the best person for the job of fixing me". I went to Neurosurgeons & Orthopaedic surgeons trying to determine which method would be best for ME, as both could perform the operation I needed. When I told them I had asked another specialists opinion, they were fervent in their dismissal of the other proffesions abilities. ALL said, "Oh don't get a blah blah blah surgeon to do it, they wouldn't have a clue".
My point being, HOW can scientists/ doctors come around to acknowledging something completely outside of their field such as OBE's, when they don't even acknowledge the work & theories of others within the same disipline such as medicine or science of which they are part of?.......................money.
The ONLY article that was open minded in it's language regarding the phenomena of OBE's was the article that density posted, the other articles had a fairly dismissive tone about them, that's how I perceived it anyway.
If science & doctors did something similar to what Frank said, stop & look within for a moment & try OBE's for themselves, maybe they would have a different perspective.
Clandestino, do we need to see everyones resume/CV/credentials to believe what they say? Or feel that more weight is added to those words simply by them stating their qualifications?I know I don't. If we were talking about genetics, then yes. I hope Jesus or Buddha doesn't reincarnate too soon, as the world we have created would mean that they are treated like the Dalai lama is at present by politicians & power mongers, with token jestures & lip service & not even that in many cases. Anyway, Patty cleared up that matter in regards to the position taken or viewpoint, all taken care of, thanks for that.
Good journeys all
Mobius
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Patty on September 23, 2002, 22:43:45
Post by: Patty on September 23, 2002, 22:43:45
Hi Mobius,
Thank you for your response.
I don't know quite how to phrase what I want to say here.
Let me try it like this. When I was learning to write publishable scientific material, I was taken aback by the dry and brusque tone of what is generally published in many fields. "I don't want to write like THAT!" I thought. I"It sounds so, so, UNLIKEABLE!" My early manuscripts were much more conversational and 'touchy-feely' in tone. (they were not published.)
Over time I came to see that scientific writing is brusque - precisely because it is scientific writing. Science is meant to do exactly what Gandalf wishes it would do - measure the things that can be measured. Stick to the physical world. Et cetera. (And it would appear that at least some spiritual experiences have a physical component. I am all for understanding the physical component!)
Since science (and it's writing) sticks to data about the physical world, any sort of emotional, or spiritual, or non-scientific element in the paper would be completely innappropriate (I'm talking about studies - such as the ones brought to this board for discussion - that are published in peer-reviewed journals, not popular science on the bookstand or internet sites, which have a different sort of value altogether. ) Everything in the journal has to be backable by data. Period. Rules of the game. That's the best way to allow other scientists to build upon that data.
And I would like to say again that I have not seen any papers dismiss outright the spiritual side of experiences. (I should look into the one you mentioned.) If they don't address the spirituality aspect at all, it is because they can't. The absence of discussion about the spiritual side of OBE's (or whatever) should not be interpreted as meaning that scientists dismiss them. Even if the 'tone' sounds dismissive, that may well be interpretation on the part of the reader. The passage that Jeff quoted, for instance.
He interpreted as dismissive, while to me it sounded very 'believerish.' In point of fact Dr. Kubu didn't say one way or the other whether she thought her patients were actually out of their bodies.
As a general rule, I don't tend to discuss my OBE's with friends or family or colleagues. I discuss them anonymously on the internet, with lovely people like yourself! However, I do have several scientist friends who are quite into these ideas. And I just remembered that I DID mention a flying dream at a work party recently. I was testing the waters with some folks that I felt a resonance to. They enjoyed hearing about the dream..... Ahhh, but these things take time.... perhaps at the next party they'll bring up the idea again .......
Warmly,
Patty
Thank you for your response.
I don't know quite how to phrase what I want to say here.
Let me try it like this. When I was learning to write publishable scientific material, I was taken aback by the dry and brusque tone of what is generally published in many fields. "I don't want to write like THAT!" I thought. I"It sounds so, so, UNLIKEABLE!" My early manuscripts were much more conversational and 'touchy-feely' in tone. (they were not published.)
Over time I came to see that scientific writing is brusque - precisely because it is scientific writing. Science is meant to do exactly what Gandalf wishes it would do - measure the things that can be measured. Stick to the physical world. Et cetera. (And it would appear that at least some spiritual experiences have a physical component. I am all for understanding the physical component!)
Since science (and it's writing) sticks to data about the physical world, any sort of emotional, or spiritual, or non-scientific element in the paper would be completely innappropriate (I'm talking about studies - such as the ones brought to this board for discussion - that are published in peer-reviewed journals, not popular science on the bookstand or internet sites, which have a different sort of value altogether. ) Everything in the journal has to be backable by data. Period. Rules of the game. That's the best way to allow other scientists to build upon that data.
And I would like to say again that I have not seen any papers dismiss outright the spiritual side of experiences. (I should look into the one you mentioned.) If they don't address the spirituality aspect at all, it is because they can't. The absence of discussion about the spiritual side of OBE's (or whatever) should not be interpreted as meaning that scientists dismiss them. Even if the 'tone' sounds dismissive, that may well be interpretation on the part of the reader. The passage that Jeff quoted, for instance.
quote:
"Sometimes patients describe looking down on their own bodies, and that experience is actually an aura or a warning that a seizure is about to occur," said Dr. Cindy Kubu, a neuropsychologist at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. She has worked with patients with epilepsy for more than a decade.
He interpreted as dismissive, while to me it sounded very 'believerish.' In point of fact Dr. Kubu didn't say one way or the other whether she thought her patients were actually out of their bodies.
As a general rule, I don't tend to discuss my OBE's with friends or family or colleagues. I discuss them anonymously on the internet, with lovely people like yourself! However, I do have several scientist friends who are quite into these ideas. And I just remembered that I DID mention a flying dream at a work party recently. I was testing the waters with some folks that I felt a resonance to. They enjoyed hearing about the dream..... Ahhh, but these things take time.... perhaps at the next party they'll bring up the idea again .......
Warmly,
Patty
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Mobius on September 24, 2002, 01:43:45
Post by: Mobius on September 24, 2002, 01:43:45
G,day Patty
Thanks for the replies also. It has cleared a few things up for me & it is really hard for me also to put into words the whole picture I'm trying to convey. I guess what struck a raw nerve with me regarding that CNN article, was some of the choice of wording used by various journalists in putting together these articles. I know that journalists paraphrase particular reports & paraphrase each other so as to sound different/ original & not to plagiarise others work. I 'm just amazed though at the choice of language employed by these journalists in compiling their articles.
I find it interesting that the articles that came from the main media giants (well, the shareholders that OWN those media sources & have certain frameworks that journalists must work within, so as to conform with the owners wishes) sounded fairly dismissive of the spiritual/ OBE type experience, to me they did anyway.
I guess it was the choice of words like the heading :
"Misfiring brain behind bizarre sensation".........................to me, those choice of words set the reader up with a fairly negative view of OBE's or a dismissive one. Nothing in it is neutral & it attempts to appeal to the cringe side of spirituality & phenomena. "Misfiring", " brain", "behind", "bizarre" "sensation". Each word negative on it's own & together a masterpiece of negativity. As you said "you don't like to discuss OBE's with friends, family & colleagues". I have the same problem, although not in the family area as much.
One of the reasons I believe is our tendency to want to appeal to our peers as competent & not crazy etc etc. We all know the brain is the organ responsible for being crazy/ mistaken/ misdirected/ misinformed/ incompetent etc . So I feel this article is trying to appeal to that side of things with it's opening heading. As though it's somehow more comfortable for people to say "Misfiring brain" than it is to say astral projection or OBE's, as saying this would be treated the same way as when you & I go to mention OBE's & astral projection to friends, family & colleages.
We are so concerned as to what OTHERS think about our competancy & status of the mind, that the topics talked about on this site, tend to stay on these type of sites & occasionally make it into book form. When in fact EVERYONE wants to know what happens on the other side, after physical death & if OBE's are somehow related to this.
The article has a paragraph about 3/4 the way down that elaborates on the "misfiring brain" line of thought & goes on to say : "An OBE may be a slight disconnect or misfiring of the processing of information".
Once again appealing to the "oh gee, my brains misfiring, that's why I 'think' I'm having OBE's" side of things, so I'd better look to science & religion for the truth, as telling people OBE's are happening to you is ...............ah, uncomfortable to say the least.
Thanks for the input Patty, most appreciated, I just wish there were more people like yourself or anyone involved in science & medicine, to leave their beliefs at the office/ lab/wards when they finish their shift. It might be our employment for the time being, but our beliefs that are taught to us for employment purposes, don't need to come home with us. I just see so many friends & scientists etc that COULD open up a whole new world for themselves & us, if only they stopped to concede that there just might be some validity to OBE's & other phenomena that we talk about in here.
All the best patty, good journeys.
Mobius
Thanks for the replies also. It has cleared a few things up for me & it is really hard for me also to put into words the whole picture I'm trying to convey. I guess what struck a raw nerve with me regarding that CNN article, was some of the choice of wording used by various journalists in putting together these articles. I know that journalists paraphrase particular reports & paraphrase each other so as to sound different/ original & not to plagiarise others work. I 'm just amazed though at the choice of language employed by these journalists in compiling their articles.
I find it interesting that the articles that came from the main media giants (well, the shareholders that OWN those media sources & have certain frameworks that journalists must work within, so as to conform with the owners wishes) sounded fairly dismissive of the spiritual/ OBE type experience, to me they did anyway.
I guess it was the choice of words like the heading :
"Misfiring brain behind bizarre sensation".........................to me, those choice of words set the reader up with a fairly negative view of OBE's or a dismissive one. Nothing in it is neutral & it attempts to appeal to the cringe side of spirituality & phenomena. "Misfiring", " brain", "behind", "bizarre" "sensation". Each word negative on it's own & together a masterpiece of negativity. As you said "you don't like to discuss OBE's with friends, family & colleagues". I have the same problem, although not in the family area as much.
One of the reasons I believe is our tendency to want to appeal to our peers as competent & not crazy etc etc. We all know the brain is the organ responsible for being crazy/ mistaken/ misdirected/ misinformed/ incompetent etc . So I feel this article is trying to appeal to that side of things with it's opening heading. As though it's somehow more comfortable for people to say "Misfiring brain" than it is to say astral projection or OBE's, as saying this would be treated the same way as when you & I go to mention OBE's & astral projection to friends, family & colleages.
We are so concerned as to what OTHERS think about our competancy & status of the mind, that the topics talked about on this site, tend to stay on these type of sites & occasionally make it into book form. When in fact EVERYONE wants to know what happens on the other side, after physical death & if OBE's are somehow related to this.
The article has a paragraph about 3/4 the way down that elaborates on the "misfiring brain" line of thought & goes on to say : "An OBE may be a slight disconnect or misfiring of the processing of information".
Once again appealing to the "oh gee, my brains misfiring, that's why I 'think' I'm having OBE's" side of things, so I'd better look to science & religion for the truth, as telling people OBE's are happening to you is ...............ah, uncomfortable to say the least.
Thanks for the input Patty, most appreciated, I just wish there were more people like yourself or anyone involved in science & medicine, to leave their beliefs at the office/ lab/wards when they finish their shift. It might be our employment for the time being, but our beliefs that are taught to us for employment purposes, don't need to come home with us. I just see so many friends & scientists etc that COULD open up a whole new world for themselves & us, if only they stopped to concede that there just might be some validity to OBE's & other phenomena that we talk about in here.
All the best patty, good journeys.
Mobius
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Mobius on September 24, 2002, 02:23:17
Post by: Mobius on September 24, 2002, 02:23:17
Just remembered a couple of other things I meant to say. IMHO I believe many scientists & doctors have thought to themselves what Frank mentioned in his last post, but never took it that step further like Frank did & said "ok, lets assume everything these OBE authors say is real". They don't realise that they can have BOTH as it looks like many in here do. Why not have the best of both worlds.
There is nothing to lose from having a go at OBE's in earnest & everything to gain if they DO achieve one.
Patty, I'm glad you say you don't write like the standard science journal method, it's just so lifeless to me & I for one would be interested in any thesis or hypothesis you might have regarding OBE's or genetics, definately, I don't care if it hasn't been published.
Btw I don't follow any religions. My interest in having people acknowledge OBE's comes from a purely experience based one. I would just love everybody to experience something that many in here believe is there.... the astral.
Ahhh, too many things to say, not enough time.
Good journeys all
Mobius
There is nothing to lose from having a go at OBE's in earnest & everything to gain if they DO achieve one.
Patty, I'm glad you say you don't write like the standard science journal method, it's just so lifeless to me & I for one would be interested in any thesis or hypothesis you might have regarding OBE's or genetics, definately, I don't care if it hasn't been published.
Btw I don't follow any religions. My interest in having people acknowledge OBE's comes from a purely experience based one. I would just love everybody to experience something that many in here believe is there.... the astral.
Ahhh, too many things to say, not enough time.
Good journeys all
Mobius
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Blossom on September 24, 2002, 08:53:31
Post by: Blossom on September 24, 2002, 08:53:31
So many bright and enthusiastic scientists are here trying to explore and understand that I feel nearly humbled. Humanity is on the verge of discovery again I feel, or at least that's how this thread makes me feel. I would like to include some interesting reading that might correlate to the discussion in some ways. But I want to say that if it wasn't for individuals like yourselves seeking and looking and trying to understand the un-understandable, mankind would not make near as much progress and be accepted as such meaning as FACTS. I realize that evolution trudges forth anyway and will always do so , but the acceptance of every new thought on any given subject, ALWAYS comes from people like yourselves first, which gives credence to new ideas and and of which the general populations beliefs shortly follow as they change based on your [scientists] ideas and research . It takes time, but we will go get there... Life is full of challenges to understand.
The following insert sums it up for me in many ways..
From: http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/findlay/etheric/contents.htm
"How many different worlds or places of habitation there may be depends on mind. Without mind there is nothing, and only when mind is present is there any realisation of matter, physical or etheric. It might therefore be logical to say that where mind is not, then there is no matter, that the universe therefore can be reduced to this one something, to which we give the name Mind; but can we conceive mind without something to act upon? We only appreciate mind when acting on matter, so mind and matter, though different - one the active, the other the passive - must be correlated. The name we give to the substance which makes up the universe, namely Matter, must therefore include these active and passive states; it must be dual in nature, as one without the other is impossible to imagine."
I have a question also. Does anyone know if any study or research has been done which actually attempts to "weigh" ethric substance to determine is there is any sort of mass involved? I realize that mass usually means a physical substance even if it is too small to see visually, but has any study been done in this area to determine this?
Jenn
Just wanting to learn....
The following insert sums it up for me in many ways..
From: http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/findlay/etheric/contents.htm
"How many different worlds or places of habitation there may be depends on mind. Without mind there is nothing, and only when mind is present is there any realisation of matter, physical or etheric. It might therefore be logical to say that where mind is not, then there is no matter, that the universe therefore can be reduced to this one something, to which we give the name Mind; but can we conceive mind without something to act upon? We only appreciate mind when acting on matter, so mind and matter, though different - one the active, the other the passive - must be correlated. The name we give to the substance which makes up the universe, namely Matter, must therefore include these active and passive states; it must be dual in nature, as one without the other is impossible to imagine."
I have a question also. Does anyone know if any study or research has been done which actually attempts to "weigh" ethric substance to determine is there is any sort of mass involved? I realize that mass usually means a physical substance even if it is too small to see visually, but has any study been done in this area to determine this?
Jenn
Just wanting to learn....
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Jeff_Mash on September 24, 2002, 13:05:56
Post by: Jeff_Mash on September 24, 2002, 13:05:56
quote:
Originally posted by Blossom:
I have a question also. Does anyone know if any study or research has been done which actually attempts to "weigh" ethric substance to determine is there is any sort of mass involved? I realize that mass usually means a physical substance even if it is too small to see visually, but has any study been done in this area to determine this?
Jenn, there was some study done many years ago, where scientists measured the weight of a dying person. They discovered that shortly after death, the person lost a small fraction of weight (2 1/4 ounces). Some tried to attribute this to the weight of the etheric body, leaving the physical body at death. Others attributed this tiny weight loss to the physical body relaxing as remaining oxygen is dispelled.
I did find an old thread talking about this online from alt.out-of-body. You can check it out here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Weight+of+Etheric+Body&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=MPG.16cb84b47ccf44b6989860%40news.lineone.net&rnum=8
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://MyJokeMail.com
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Eukaryote on September 24, 2002, 14:52:35
Post by: Eukaryote on September 24, 2002, 14:52:35
I heard about this experiement before. Apparently it had been conducted in two or three different parts of the world and similar results had been measured.
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Atlas on September 24, 2002, 19:30:43
Post by: Atlas on September 24, 2002, 19:30:43
Adrian
>>I would say though that I am fundamentally opposed to charging for any service that is for the benefit of mankind, its Spiritual evolution, the planet and all life thereon. OBE's Astral projection, altered states of consciousness, meditation to name but just a few, are all part of the Spiritual progression of humanity,and is the property of us all - or should be.<<
So Robert shouldn't charge for his books? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Atlas
>>I would say though that I am fundamentally opposed to charging for any service that is for the benefit of mankind, its Spiritual evolution, the planet and all life thereon. OBE's Astral projection, altered states of consciousness, meditation to name but just a few, are all part of the Spiritual progression of humanity,and is the property of us all - or should be.<<
So Robert shouldn't charge for his books? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Atlas
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Mobius on September 25, 2002, 05:30:11
Post by: Mobius on September 25, 2002, 05:30:11
Hehe Atlas, you becoming your alter ego Axis & fishing for a bite? You evil, evil man, hehe ( I hope you know I'm joking).
Robert couldn't exactly afford to write books & set up an OBE site on the dole or by setting up a religion & therfore not have to pay tax to let the world know about a subject that is usually refered to religion or science for explanations.
I think from what I gather, Adrian means he doesn't like people creating monopolies, or filling their pockets well beyond overspill. I & probably Adrian too don't mind people sharing with other people their talents, it's when they get consumed by greed & use people for their own purpose, at someone elses expense. The topic of money & information is a huge topic on it's own & we both know each others opinion of it. It starts to get fairly philosophical when we talk about what sort of system would best benefit all people on this planet, so as to motivate & reward work or services done & how best to make sure everyone is on an equal footing, taking into account such things as inherited wealth & aristocracies.
So I'll leave it there, maybe Adrian WILL answer that question, but when you are forced to live the unequel world of capatilism(e.g 3rd world counties & women), you have to do what you can to survive & at the same time, fullfill your passions & desires/aspirations without taking from those who don't have it in the first place.
Astral dynamics still remains my favourite book on OBE's, the only thing I didn't like about it was, there was no referencing in the chapters. It would have been good to reinforce some of Roberts own views/experiences/techniques by having some sort of referencing after each chapter or amongst the text, so the reader can quickly find the relevant passages in the books in the bibliography. I have most of the books listed in the bibliography, just would have been good to see the page numbers. As they say,you can please some people sometimes, but you can't please all the people all the time.
Apart from that, he describes many existing techniques & phenomena in a very sensible plain english terms, which are a little hard to understand in some of the early writers.
Good journeys all
Mobius
Robert couldn't exactly afford to write books & set up an OBE site on the dole or by setting up a religion & therfore not have to pay tax to let the world know about a subject that is usually refered to religion or science for explanations.
I think from what I gather, Adrian means he doesn't like people creating monopolies, or filling their pockets well beyond overspill. I & probably Adrian too don't mind people sharing with other people their talents, it's when they get consumed by greed & use people for their own purpose, at someone elses expense. The topic of money & information is a huge topic on it's own & we both know each others opinion of it. It starts to get fairly philosophical when we talk about what sort of system would best benefit all people on this planet, so as to motivate & reward work or services done & how best to make sure everyone is on an equal footing, taking into account such things as inherited wealth & aristocracies.
So I'll leave it there, maybe Adrian WILL answer that question, but when you are forced to live the unequel world of capatilism(e.g 3rd world counties & women), you have to do what you can to survive & at the same time, fullfill your passions & desires/aspirations without taking from those who don't have it in the first place.
Astral dynamics still remains my favourite book on OBE's, the only thing I didn't like about it was, there was no referencing in the chapters. It would have been good to reinforce some of Roberts own views/experiences/techniques by having some sort of referencing after each chapter or amongst the text, so the reader can quickly find the relevant passages in the books in the bibliography. I have most of the books listed in the bibliography, just would have been good to see the page numbers. As they say,you can please some people sometimes, but you can't please all the people all the time.
Apart from that, he describes many existing techniques & phenomena in a very sensible plain english terms, which are a little hard to understand in some of the early writers.
Good journeys all
Mobius
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Atlas on September 26, 2002, 23:17:36
Post by: Atlas on September 26, 2002, 23:17:36
Hi Mobius
Of course I think Robert, or anyone else, has every right to sell their goods and services. I own Astral Dynamics and I had no problem with paying for it. Nor do I think charging for it somehow "damages" a new-age/"spiritual" person's reputation, since I see absolutely nothing wrong with profit.
I'm not trying to bait anyone. I was just curious if Adrian applied that position uniformly. DOES he think Robert is wrong for charging for his book? No one in the new age realm has a 'monopoly' on anything so I doubt he was referring to it in that manner.
Atlas
Of course I think Robert, or anyone else, has every right to sell their goods and services. I own Astral Dynamics and I had no problem with paying for it. Nor do I think charging for it somehow "damages" a new-age/"spiritual" person's reputation, since I see absolutely nothing wrong with profit.
I'm not trying to bait anyone. I was just curious if Adrian applied that position uniformly. DOES he think Robert is wrong for charging for his book? No one in the new age realm has a 'monopoly' on anything so I doubt he was referring to it in that manner.
Atlas
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: Daniel on September 27, 2002, 05:43:32
Post by: Daniel on September 27, 2002, 05:43:32
Adrian
Here's a thought for us all.
Could it be that we as multiexistencial beings are still attatched to the centuries old religious charity mentality that we used to praise for so loudly in our past existences.
Regards,
Daniel
quote:
I would say though that I am fundamentally opposed to charging for any service that is for the benefit of mankind, its Spiritual evolution, the planet and all life thereon. OBE's Astral projection, altered states of consciousness, meditation to name but just a few, are all part of the Spiritual progression of humanity,and is the property of us all - or should be
Here's a thought for us all.
Could it be that we as multiexistencial beings are still attatched to the centuries old religious charity mentality that we used to praise for so loudly in our past existences.
Regards,
Daniel
Title: new CNN article talks about OBE
Post by: DreamSpeak on September 19, 2002, 14:09:26
Post by: DreamSpeak on September 19, 2002, 14:09:26
Let me know what you think of this...
it's publicity for OBE, as i see it.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/index.html
DS
it's publicity for OBE, as i see it.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/index.html
DS