New Scientist's paper about OBE

[cobalt]

Thought that some of you just might have it interesting to read:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12531-outofbody-experiences-are-all-in-the-mind.html

[psychodynamics]

Also see here...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6960612.stm

lol cobalt, you beat me to it

[Tongo]

Hmmm so are they saying that this is proof of the soul or not? 

[David Warner]

AP Friends,

Proof is in the experience and validating your own concrete claims. Lets not forget that the projectionists don't wear helmets, or get prodded in the chest to achieve this level of consciousness. Also, many of these neurological scientific studies don't take in consideration healthy patients during trauma vs. the dying. I've done my own research for the last three years and whole heartdly tracked times, what I ate, amount of sleep, categorizing the experience. I've seen a constant value that the obe's occurr close to each other monthly to yearly, amount of sleep is a factor, and validations. The results are impressive and are natural.

I do think science might find the key to allow 'us' successfully reproduce anytime at 'will' the obe and allow us to connect with the spiritual body and that will change a lot. Still never less, there will always be that debate - science, religion and spiritual projectionists. There is so much science can't explain and will never be able to.

As we explore deeper into space finding water where it can breath life... just imagine!

Tvos

[kiwibonga]

The experiment has nothing to do with out of body experiences... They're moving the point of self awareness while the subject is wide awake... Interesting... But not an OBE! Call it short-range remote viewing, perhaps...

I saw another article a few weeks ago about a scientist who uses magnets to trigger "OBEs" in people... His "proof" that OBEs are all in the mind is the fact that putting a strong magnet near a certain area of the brain causes you to feel a presence in the room.. His subjects don't even have an actual OBE!

Here, it's not even clear that the scientist himself was trying to "disprove" OBEs... It looks like the people writing the news somehow decided to not only claim proof where there is none, but they've got their OBE facts wrong too!

[cobalt]

I think they are just doing what they can, according to our current theoretical knowledge and technological possibilities. Yes, it might be small steps, like starting with things they can probe(point of self awareness, different feelings felt during OBEs, it can all lead to whats causing them) but at least they are trying to get somewhere instead of denying OBEs at all as some nonsense.

[T.L.]

I believe that they will try to use this as the "final word" when it comes to obes though. If they dont thats great if they do then its laughable. That is why I say that imitating something or duplicating an effect does not verify nor deny its reality. Also it does not mean that the way you created the effect is how the effect is always created. There are always different paths you can take to the same destination as someone else, and either one could not be considered the right or wrong way as you both ended up at the same place. Having said that a quote from the paper mentioned: "It gives you a very strong sensation you're sitting somewhere else" Okay Ive had a strong sensation I was some where else that did not mean I had a obe, once again its laughable. A good example was sitting in a chair staring at a full length mirror for an extended period of time, concentrating on the fact that perhaps I am not where I think I am to be instead I could be the person staring at me from inside the mirror. This was an exercise I thought of to practice consciousness/awareness placement or displacement. A good 20 minutes of this and with a little zoning off I was no longer sure which me was me. Sure it was a weird and confusing sensation but it was not life changing, truth be told I forgot about that exercise till just now when I was thinking of a close example.
  It certainly felt as though I was the other person in the mirror and sure it confused me. Such as the experiment mentioned confused the experiencer but I am sure they will not walk away from this with a life changing attitude. The main point was it was an physical illusion they witnessed. Now how many people who have had a full blown obe walked away from the experience completely changed especially in the way they view life? Probably around 90 percent and the others are scared to death but never-the-less changed lol, after all that is what motivates me to record my experiences and what keeps me here to talk about it with others to help them to achieve what I have, so that they too can be changed in this way.

[bjb1234]

This doesnt sound like they reproduce an OBE at will does it....

Not at all

Its more like visual suggestion from what i was reading

People expecting to feel something so they did....

Feelings can be reproduced by suggestion, i mean under hypnosis you can feel things you have felt before, taste things you have tasted before...  this can happen even without hypnosis. 

Maybe i have wrong idea about this experiment, but from what i read, its not got much to do with actual OBEs at all.

We know you can stimulate the FEELING your out of the body.  But you cant trigger a full blown OBE.

[catmeow]

So they put some people in VR helmets and surprise surprise they feel as if they're in VR land!  What did I miss? Hello?

These experiments simply moved an individual's "point of view" to that of a camera located a few feet behind their physical body.  The subjects then (surprise surprise) reported the sensation of feeling "as if they were out of the body" and viewing themselves from behind.  Call me stupid, but what exactly did they expect?  Is this meant to be a big deal?  ... cos if so I'm a dandelion....

All they are doing is reproducing the exact conditions of an OBE, ie moving the point if view to behind the actual physical body.  They do this using a VR headset whereas in a "real" OBE the point of view (we assert) actually does move without the need for a VR headset.  But the resulting sensation is obviously going to be the same in both cases.  You don't need any GCSE's to figure this out...

This is research?

[iNNERvOYAGER]

A good example was sitting in a chair staring at a full length mirror for an extended period of time, concentrating on the fact that perhaps I am not where I think I am to be instead I could be the person staring at me from inside the mirror. This was an exercise I thought of to practice consciousness/awareness placement or displacement. A good 20 minutes of this and with a little zoning off I was no longer sure which me was me.

Awesome little experiment. A lot less expensive and actually an image of much higher fidelity than a video VR illusion.

Can you see what appears to be an institutionalized preconception about what OBE is supposed to be to these researchers?

Their simplistic concept of OBE is that it's all about looking at one's body from an offset position and that all you do is float around obsessed with looking at your physical self. ( lol )

I have never looked at, or even had the desire to look at my physical body because I'm aware of it, and know of its state of health, however, I'm instinctively concerned about learning how this lighter body works and to take the opportunity to explore. 

When I wish to look at my "body" in this state, I want to observe the current vehicle of my consciousness, and I see my ethereal arms and hands. At that point, my identity is the lighter body. As I said, the last thing I wish to do is to look at the physical body.

[Mustardseed]

Science is always trying to disprove phenomena that do not accept as possible. Science is by definition concerned with logic and provable fact.

Having a OBE experience is more than a physical sensation it is a spiritual condition. An interesting experiment would be to use this technique on a person who knows and are capable of conscious exits and ask him/her if the sensation is the same. This however is not accepted, as it would require them to have faith in such a person.

It is easier to use it on a person who has no experience with such things and then make various conclusions and insinuations that supports their own postulate.

Regards Mustardseed

[bjb1234]

Well like most people, to me we are 3 part beings, sorta a trinity

Body
Mind
Spirit

Body is like your computers hardware, the keyboard, screen, speakers, microphone etc...

Mind is like your computers RAM memory (temporary) it remembers everything from this life.  The mind is also like a processor and a download devise. (If your mind is damaged the information it "downloads" can get messed up, for example hullucinate, ive heard of cases where blind people who was blind all there life have been able to see and describe things during an OBE).

Spirit is like your big hard drive, it stores everything about you from all lives it has access to hidden worlds etc... 


I think what im trying to say is you can manipulate the mind to believe something is there that isnt, but this cant example the thousands of NDE where people can remember information that have seen, for example there doctors notes, or even events that happened on other floors of the ward.  Niether does it explain alot of peoples experiences with OBEs.

I dont know much about OBEs or anything really, but im setting my life out to learn and teach others.

I keep getting dragged between religion and free thinking spirituality tho lol.

[cobalt]

I think most of you are too negative and have too little tolerance against science. I mean, the idea of science forces it to begin in such ways. Science needs to know the details. It cannot philosophize about OBE in general. So can you suggest any better way/place to start seriously research obe in a scientific way, than to start with physical senses. Is there anything else we can probe?

I mean, if we could at least by any means detect or measure any of the spiritual stuff(like astral body and similar) im sure we would do so. but now we are only able to research our brain physical conditions and stuff.
I believe it would be much smarter to work with people who are actually able project, and test from where their senses and brain states come from.
Anyways, dont judge scientists so hardly, they just needs to do it their way, and maybe some they they will be able to define word spirit in a rational sense.

[MisterJingo]

Science is always trying to disprove phenomena that do not accept as possible. Science is by definition concerned with logic and provable fact.

Science never ever tries to disprove anything. Science tests an hypnosis, and then determines its truth from the recorded observations. Other people can test the hypothesis too. Science does not actively accept (or reject) anything at all. It is simply a method of observation, nothing more or less. I'm not specifically picking on you Mustardseed, but I'm shocked at the lack of education, especially on the scientific method, which is found on the majority of boards which purport to 'spiritual practices'. This then results in people being negative about science (which is caused by their own lack of understanding of the subject).
It might surprise you Mustardseed, but philosophy and indeed metaphysics by definition are concerned with logic and fact, such features are their very bedrock and foundation.
Provable fact is nothing more than shared consensus reality. If you really wish to do away with provable fact, then even spiritual subjects become meaningless, as each person defines their own term's and perhaps even language to talk about those terms in. Why is there such negativity towards finding a commonality in which to share experiences? Being anti-science is being against the sharing of experience, being anti-science through lack of education is worse.

Having a OBE experience is more than a physical sensation it is a spiritual condition.

What exactly is a spiritual condition? What exactly is spiritual? If we refuse to use logic and 'provable fact', why are we even sharing experiences on this forum?

An interesting experiment would be to use this technique on a person who knows and are capable of conscious exits and ask him/her if the sensation is the same. This however is not accepted, as it would require them to have faith in such a person.

Faith is useless in the scientific or even objective domain, as irrationality is at its core and it stifles any attempts at defining a commonality. Such as I can have faith that OBEs are actually the cause of clockwork elves polishing my toenails and so causing them to irradiate orgone energy which dissolves my body and places me in the zozo dimension. Another person might believe me mad based upon their faith in OBEs being aliens beaming holographic simulations into their head.
Faith is a dead-end as it ignore anything to the contrary of faith held beliefs, even if those beliefs could be proven to be 100% wrong (I'm not saying such a feat is possible).

It is easier to use it on a person who has no experience with such things and then make various conclusions and insinuations that supports their own postulate.

What conclusions or insinuations (a biased word) did this article actually state? Why are your own 'faith based' experiences and consequent conclusions reached from your own OBEs any less wrong or negative than the results of this experiment?
People fail to see that this experiment was about 'out of body sensations' not about the 'out of body experience', but it seems many are so desperate to hold on to their own beliefs they attack anything they perceive to counter their own desired faith held beliefs.

[MisterJingo]

I believe that they will try to use this as the "final word" when it comes to obes though. If they dont thats great if they do then its laughable.

What grounds have you got to believe this? Why do you actually believe this? Don't you see you are doing exactly what (groundlessly) you accuse science of doing?

That is why I say that imitating something or duplicating an effect does not verify nor deny its reality.

Can you post any examples of things where shared repeatable experience does not prove the reality of those things?

Also it does not mean that the way you created the effect is how the effect is always created.

Agreed, but I've not seen anyone claim such a thing.

There are always different paths you can take to the same destination as someone else, and either one could not be considered the right or wrong way as you both ended up at the same place.

Once again, agreed, but I don't see anyone denying such logic.

Having said that a quote from the paper mentioned: "It gives you a very strong sensation you're sitting somewhere else" Okay Ive had a strong sensation I was some where else that did not mean I had a obe, once again its laughable.

A recorded observation is laughable because? The article is talking about out of body sensations, not THE out of body experience. Sensations in which one perceives themselves to be removed from their body is different from the perception of actually believing one is removed from their physical body.

A good example was sitting in a chair staring at a full length mirror for an extended period of time, concentrating on the fact that perhaps I am not where I think I am to be instead I could be the person staring at me from inside the mirror. This was an exercise I thought of to practice consciousness/awareness placement or displacement. A good 20 minutes of this and with a little zoning off I was no longer sure which me was me. Sure it was a weird and confusing sensation but it was not life changing, truth be told I forgot about that exercise till just now when I was thinking of a close example.

Did you also laugh when you experienced this? Why has an experience got to be life changing oto have any merit or use?

  It certainly felt as though I was the other person in the mirror and sure it confused me. Such as the experiment mentioned confused the experiencer but I am sure they will not walk away from this with a life changing attitude.

Why has the experiencer got to walk away with anything to make the experiment useful? Data was gained, insight into our body perception was gained, so it was a success.

The main point was it was an physical illusion they witnessed. Now how many people who have had a full blown obe walked away from the experience completely changed especially in the way they view life?

Why the obsession with changing ones view of life? If I huff a load of chemicals which causes brain damage my view of life will be changed. Does that make it a good thing?
Also, how can you be so certain that your OBEs have not been a physical illusion? I mean really, how can you 'know'?

Probably around 90 percent and the others are scared to death but never-the-less changed lol, after all that is what motivates me to record my experiences and what keeps me here to talk about it with others to help them to achieve what I have, so that they too can be changed in this way.

To quote yourself:

That is why I say that imitating something or duplicating an effect does not verify nor deny its reality.

If you truly believe this, why bother keeping a log or sharing your experiences? You admit doing such things does not in any way verify their reality. You are honestly open to the fact that OBEs might be brain induced? Or is the quoted comment wrong?


Once again, I'm not focussing on you, but I get dismayed when I see people being so openly biased about something they either know little about or purposefully misinterpret that thing. Most people in this thread seem to be attacking their own misreading of the experiment. Such things make me lose hope that people are actually looking for any kind of truth, rather than happily wallowing in their own beliefs regardless of any new knowledge or facts.

[T.L.]

From the article:
Out-of-body experience recreated:
"Experts have found a way to trigger an out-of-body experience in volunteers."

"The article is talking about out of body sensations, not THE out of body experience."
The article claimed that scientists triggered an obe in the volunteers not that they were able to trigger sensations of an obe. I think there is a distinct difference. As I've admitted and said earlier I have created some sensations in which I felt I was out but wasnt really.

"Why has an experience got to be life changing oto have any merit or use?"
It was an observation that people who have had what most on this forum would consider a real full blown obe, does change most peoples opinions on the matters of life and death. Im sure perhaps there have been a couple who perhaps it didnt or a few that it scared more than actually helped. Lets say a group of 10 people have obes. Normally around 7 would walk away changed in a huge way (this is assuming that all ten werent too freaked out by it)

Also it does not mean that the way you created the effect is how the effect is always created.
"Agreed, but I've not seen anyone claim such a thing"

The article is assuming the reason in which people in their experiment felt as if they were out of body is the same reason those that do actually get out feel as though they are out.

"Also, how can you be so certain that your OBEs have not been a physical illusion? I mean really, how can you 'know'?"

Each and everytime my body itself has been asleep. According to sleep professionals while the body is asleep you can not consciously feel physical sensations. At least that is what they used to claim. To be a purely physical illusion such as you suggest my physical body would have to be awake, would it not? In the experiement the volunteers were completely awake and capable of feeling physical stimulis. In my obes my physical body is asleep, paralyzed, and Im not capable of consciously feeling anything physical.

  Its not my intention on arguing though. If you dont agree with anything I have to say thats fine. I know a lot of what I have to say usually seems abstract. There are times I admit though the way I word things is wrong, sorry about that. I dont have anything against science, without it the world would still be in the dark ages.
   As a matter of fact in school it was my favorite subject and there was a year or two where I went without making one single mistake on any of the tests,quizzes or homework. I also dont think people should take what others say as fact until they experience it for theirselves.  All I ask is to let the possibility intrigue you, and a willingness to give it a try. I had some friends who have thought of me as being crazy, gave what I suggested a few tries and then admit to me they were succeeding and it scared the sh*t out of them. To me its fine if science never acknowledges obe's as a real thing, that is okay. It's also part of why it is so special. A good majority thinks it does not exist yet it still does, to me that's a special thing and why I feel so honored to have been able to do it as much as I have. I still remember when sleep professionals said that what some termed lucid dreaming was impossible because in sleep the conscious mind could not possibly become active.
   

[bjb1234]

I dont have a negative attitude towards science, but i think alot of scientists are like alot of religious people, they believe what they want to believe, they will see this POSSIBLE explanation and accept it.

This attitude is increasing in science these days...  Some people claim to have already proved life after death exists with real facts.  But science ignores them as if there facts was accepted it would change alot of science we currently consider fact.  In other words it would shake the foundations of modern science.

Anyway, these guys didnt trigger a proper OBE.  But they did create some of the feelings and sensations.  But the articles ive read about it say clearly "they didnt trigger a OBE".

I think its good that there trying to learn about this, it would be nice for some more background on these scientist teams.

Have they ever experienced a real OBE themself?  Have they studied people who have?

OBE's are real....  This experiment doesnt tell us much.

[Mustardseed]

A very interesting discussion. Do not worry about me taking anything personal. I am not.

My view is this. It seems to me that science is emerging as the new priesthood, and have passed through being "persecuted" to becoming the "persecute".

As you know there was a time where science was thought to be inferiour and in the wrong. Scientists were burned as heretics, when the thoughts they had on the world were seen and discarded  by the power that ruled. The Catholic church comes to mind.

As time passed these "same"scientists succeeded in capturing the mind of the populace. They became obsessed with the notion that unless something could be proven it was indeed a falsehood. I realise that there are many openminded scientists but I think it is very difficult for them to really explore certain subjects. Most are paid by grants and it is a threat to their very existence, so they stay on the straight and narrow.

A few weeks ago I talked to one such man. He did research in cancer and smoking and were attending a conference on the same subject where I live. He told me that it is a known fact that smoking has many beneficial effects, among them the fact that gingivitis and several other infections are provable smaller in people who smoke as the germs cannot survive in the environment of a mouth full of smoke. He told me that there are other good effects as well but lamented that it is impossible to ever get a grant to examine these facts, as it is simply not politically correct to grant funds to such a project.

The medical industry is the same, it is very hard to get a grant to explore the benefit of alternative medicine, as the grants are controlled mainly by the industry.

The video The secret covers some of the areas that science could explore but unfortunately it is a very small niche and is not attracting many career scientists.............why? ask yourself.

Science is in every way limited in their understanding of the world around us, because they are so focused on the scientific methodology they have developed, but we all know that our understanding of existence is evolving. There was a time when scientists believed stuff that today is shown to be false, yet at that time they insisted that they had an edge on various faith based beliefsystems.

When science starts to have an actual dialogue with people of faith, not looking down on them as being inferior and misguided, I believe that they will take a quantum leap in their understanding of the world we all live in.

Regards Mustardseed

[MisterJingo]

The article claimed that scientists triggered an obe in the volunteers not that they were able to trigger sensations of an obe. I think there is a distinct difference. As I've admitted and said earlier I have created some sensations in which I felt I was out but wasnt really.

As you state, the article said:

"Experts have found a way to trigger an out-of-body experience in volunteers."

This is the article writers (mis)interpretation of the research; the researchers have not actually claimed this.

The research itself (not a reports poor interpretation) states:

Two teams used virtual reality goggles to con the brain into thinking the body was located elsewhere

The visual illusion plus the feel of their real bodies being touched made volunteers sense that they had moved outside of their physical bodies.

Operative word here is 'sense'.

The volunteers reported that the sensation seemed to be caused by the pen on their virtual back, rather than their real back, making them feel as if the virtual body was their own rather than a hologram.

Even when the camera was switched to film the back of a mannequin being stroked rather than their own back, the volunteers still reported feeling as if the virtual mannequin body was their own.
And when the researchers switched off the goggles, guided the volunteers back a few paces, and then asked them to walk back to where they had been standing, the volunteers overshot the target, returning nearer to the position of their "virtual self".

Dr Ehrsson said: "This experiment suggests that the first-person visual perspective is critically important for the in-body experience. In other words, we feel that our self is located where the eyes are."

"Scientists have long suspected that the clue to these extraordinary, and sometimes life-changing, experiences lies in disrupting our normal illusion of being a self behind our eyes, and replacing it with a new viewpoint from above or behind."

The above talks about sensations of being out of body, no claims that they actually reproduced an OBE. To back this up further, the report also states:

the two teams, from University College London, UK, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne, believe there is a neurological explanation.
Their work suggests a disconnection between the brain circuits that process visual and touch sensory information may thus be responsible for some OBEs.

I've made bold the important words above. The research itself simply reproduced sensations of being out of body, the researchers themselves make no claims that this proves anything about OBEs, although the reporter himself does. That's a huge difference: Scientists in the article make no claims or predictions, it simply states the results of the experiment. It doesn't dismiss, or even claim to have proven anything about OBEs other than the sensation of being out of body could have its cause in this visual disconnection between body and perspective. Is this different from OBE techniques which ask people to visualise various things, or stare into the darkness (until the body is asleep and visual sensation would be disconnected from body sensation)?

It was an observation that people who have had what most on this forum would consider a real full blown obe, does change most peoples opinions on the matters of life and death. Im sure perhaps there have been a couple who perhaps it didnt or a few that it scared more than actually helped. Lets say a group of 10 people have obes. Normally around 7 would walk away changed in a huge way (this is assuming that all ten werent too freaked out by it)

I agree it is usually a changing experience. What I personally would love to see is that people didn't immediately draw conclusions on the meaning of the experience (i.e. survival after death simply because they perceived themselves separate from their body), and that they research all angles and kept an open mind. For many, having an OBE or feeling vibrations somehow justifies an entirely new world view consisting of energy bodies, chakras, astral planes, reincarnation, and life after death. This does not follow from the experience, however exciting and mind opening it might be.

The article is assuming the reason in which people in their experiment felt as if they were out of body is the same reason those that do actually get out feel as though they are out.

The researchers suggest there might be a connection; it was the article writer who assumed. A suggestion is not a decision either way, it simply opens possible avenues of future research.

Each and everytime my body itself has been asleep. According to sleep professionals while the body is asleep you can not consciously feel physical sensations. At least that is what they used to claim. To be a purely physical illusion such as you suggest my physical body would have to be awake, would it not? In the experiement the volunteers were completely awake and capable of feeling physical stimulis. In my obes my physical body is asleep, paralyzed, and Im not capable of consciously feeling anything physical.

When one is asleep, one can still feel physical stimuli, generally though internal stimuli (dreams) are more dominant than the physical stimuli which gets filtered by the subconscious. Some of this can make it to dreams, such as an alarm clock integrating itself into a dream, or even things like nova-dreamer. This is a device which detects rem movement and then flashes a light into the eyes, through reality checking, one will notice the incorporated flashing and use it as a cue to become lucid.

 Its not my intention on arguing though. If you dont agree with anything I have to say thats fine. I know a lot of what I have to say usually seems abstract. There are times I admit though the way I word things is wrong, sorry about that. I dont have anything against science, without it the world would still be in the dark ages.

As my previous post, I am not arguing as such, I just saw everyone misreading the article and then attacking science as a bad thing. Most spiritual forums I belong to are very anti-science, and yet, I see the people most rabid are usually those without a true understanding of scientific principles. So scientists in their eyes become closed minded sceptics who seem to go out of their way to disprove the occult and similar areas, when in truth, scientists would happily research these areas given sufficient cause. Science never dismisses anything as it doesn't deal in absolutes.

  As a matter of fact in school it was my favorite subject and there was a year or two where I went without making one single mistake on any of the tests,quizzes or homework. I also dont think people should take what others say as fact until they experience it for theirselves.  All I ask is to let the possibility intrigue you, and a willingness to give it a try. I had some friends who have thought of me as being crazy, gave what I suggested a few tries and then admit to me they were succeeding and it scared the sh*t out of them. To me its fine if science never acknowledges obe's as a real thing, that is okay. It's also part of why it is so special. A good majority thinks it does not exist yet it still does, to me that's a special thing and why I feel so honored to have been able to do it as much as I have. I still remember when sleep professionals said that what some termed lucid dreaming was impossible because in sleep the conscious mind could not possibly become active.

Keep on learning in all areas and keep an open mind to all possibilities (which you seem to be doing), and really, that's all we can ever do .

[MisterJingo]

I dont have a negative attitude towards science, but i think alot of scientists are like alot of religious people, they believe what they want to believe, they will see this POSSIBLE explanation and accept it.

This is a great misunderstanding about science; it does not believe what it wants to believe, it believes what the weight of empirical evidence points to, and what has been backed up in repeated experiments by other people (which shows that whatever phenomenon is the core of the research is repeatable and hence has an objective reality outside of the cultural and scientific constructs used to study that phenomenon).
This discounts they accept possible explanations and that's that. Also keep in mind that science will update its world view based upon new research, such as Newton's laws of motion being replaced by Einstein's laws of relativity.

This attitude is increasing in science these days...  Some people claim to have already proved life after death exists with real facts.  But science ignores them as if there facts was accepted it would change alot of science we currently consider fact.  In other words it would shake the foundations of modern science.

If there was anything objective about such facts, science would study them. Most claims of life after death are irrational or can no way be backed up or studied. A belief does equate to a truth or a fact.

Anyway, these guys didnt trigger a proper OBE.  But they did create some of the feelings and sensations.  But the articles ive read about it say clearly "they didnt trigger a OBE".

They never claimed to have triggered an OBE.

I think its good that there trying to learn about this, it would be nice for some more background on these scientist teams.

Have they ever experienced a real OBE themself?  Have they studied people who have?

Read into Charles Tarts papers regarding his studies on people who claimed to be able to induce OBEs at will (he even included Robert Monroe in his experiments).

OBE's are real....  This experiment doesnt tell us much.

OBEs are real in the sense we can subjectively experience them, or because we can objectively observe them?

[MisterJingo]

Hey Mustardseed,

I havent got time to reply to you right now, so I will later . I've got housework to do .

[T.L.]

 "What I personally would love to see is that people didn't immediately draw conclusions on the meaning of the experience (i.e. survival after death simply because they perceived themselves separate from their body),"
   
I dont think that a lot of people just jump to the assumption automatically once they do have an obe. Im sure that some do, but I think a lot of it has to do with them seeing dead relatives. The first conclusion I had was that I was going insane when I did succeed in an obe heh.

"When one is asleep, one can still feel physical stimuli, generally though internal stimuli (dreams) are more dominant than the physical stimuli which gets filtered by the subconscious. Some of this can make it to dreams, such as an alarm clock integrating itself into a dream, or even things like nova-dreamer. This is a device which detects rem movement and then flashes a light into the eyes, through reality checking, one will notice the incorporated flashing and use it as a cue to become lucid."

This is one of the cases where the wording I used wasnt great. I know you can sometimes notice in your dreams the radio or commercials or whats going around you and your subconscious will integrate it in the dream you are having. What I meant though is consciously feel while your body is asleep. For example have someone doing something to someone physically that wont wake the person up consciously then wake the person up and have them repeat what was done to them.
 
About the reincarnation thing. You mentioned people assume that this is a possibility because they can obe or from the obe experience. Before I could even project I believed in this as a possibility. Well believe isnt the right word, I knew it was. I guess I was lucky but I have this incredible ability to remember things very very far back. For instance I could remember things as a child before I could even walk. My mother a while back was pretty skeptic about this when I told her. So I recounted to her an experience before I could walk and could only crawl.
  The experience was basically that I was curious about these shoes they were cowboy boots and I seen people putting on shoes so I was curious to see if I could put them on lol. I crawled up to them knocked them over and tried to put a leg in one. My mother picked me up turned me over and layed me down to change my diaper. There were more details about the house I recounted to her that there would be no way of me knowing any of it unless I actually remembered it because back then she didnt take many pictures of anything at all, I only have one baby picture of myself.
  Anyway I can only remember so far back but if I try my hardest to remember something further than that I get all these memories of going to plays/operas and the way people are dressed points to how people dressed ages ago. This was real memories also not dream memories Im talking about.  So at a very young age I automatically believed in multiple lives except I didnt know as a child the term reincarnation. I also thought it as a natural thing everyone believed heh I was wrong about that. There used to be this show "proof positive" in which they take 3 stories/myths and put them to the test and shows which story held up to the evidence. There was this police officer who was sort of dared to go to a hypnotist to get a past life regression done. He didnt believe in it but went anyhow to prove the people wrong who believe in it. In the regression who starts to remember very descriptive details that he was a painter and described the paintings he had done in detail. He even remembered his name. The name, the fact that he was a painter, the actual paintings existed and eventually they came across a historic centre who had the actual painters diary. All details the officer recalled were true and fact.
  To prove this guy wasnt just making it up or lying to them they gave him a polygraph test in which he completely passed. This is just one example but there are tons in which people have personally verified the details they recalled later.
  Truth be told I wish that reincarnation wasnt a possibility because I really dont like the idea of physical lives. I dont mean that in a melodramatic or depressed way either. I have a good life, I have a fiance, a beautiful daughter and Im not homeless. I have a better than average car.. etc. So Im not saying life sucks in an "emo" way. I just mean that I know there are other possibilities, ive been there and that Id rather spend my "life" other ways than being stuck in the physical.
  One last thing is that science says that energy can not be completely destroyed. If we burn something for instance we just changed its chemical make up its not really destroyed. So even if we were to acknowledge that the brain created our consciousness,the mind and its thoughts are a form of energy so it can not therefore be completely destroyed. It's a cliche argument Im sure but its right.
    Im just glad we can (on this forum) debate things in a mature manner. Other forums it ends up being too personal. Regards,
                            T.L.

[Sharpe]

Put it like this: Science is truth / reality.
Paranormal and any other phenomena not proven = 100% chance it doesn't exist, because it was made up by man in the past to form a philosophy on the "truth", obviously we know the truth now so there's no use into believing in any kind of mumbo-jumbo.

[Mustardseed]

Now THAT my friend is fundamentalism, not science. To say that science is truth /reality and other phenomena does 100% not exist.........well

OK let me say it like this.

Whatever

[bjb1234]

A theory that was taught as fact (by alot of people) a while ago was that the moon came out of the sea....

You cant say all science is truth, cause as somebody said earlier, its always been updated and changed based upon NEW DISCOVERIES.