OBE AND TEMPORAL PERIETAL JUNCTION

[asthanasir]

 :-)For the science, OBE has always been a chalenge as it threatens the scientific concept of death. So, to deal with the alleged observations of OBE, neuroscience has come out with an explaination. I have initiated this topic to just ascertain veracity of the explaination offered by the science  using temporal perietal junction.

[interception]

All well and good, but it doesn't explain the gaining of verifiable information of events during an out of body experience... information that could not have been gained in any other way other than ones awareness being non-local.

[Summerlander]

Science acknowledges OOBEs but has of yet no explanation for them. The same goes for the phenomenon of consciousness. Also, it doesn't help when the majority of scientists aproach the OOBE study without experiencing them for themselves.

I also agree with interception. As an OOBEr myself who has been making personal observations, I can tell you now that many factors point towards the notion that it is not just in the brain. It has led me to suspect that the human mind extends beyond the physical body.

I have conducted certain experiments with members of Astral Viewers and it seems that OOBEs open the doors to other possibilities which are not available (or easily available) during waking states - such as telepathy, precognition, mental therapy, seeing probables etc. etc.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that information provided by what appears to be the deceased has at times turned out to be accurate or it checks out in waking life. Of course, the sceptic would put it down to coincidence. If so, then coincidences seem to happen more often than not according to my observations...

[catmeow]

Any scientific investigation of OBE, which might involve stimulation of the angular gyrus, the parietal lobe or any other part of the brain, needs to explain the full spectrum of OBE experience. 

This of course involves the sensation of total disembodiment, point consciousness, floating and passing through walls, correctly observing events at a distance, influencing others and the dreams of others, being able to function in the OBE state whilst the physical body is fully active (as has been commonly reported), 360 degree or spherical vision, detailed visual perception in people who were blind from birth, heightened consciousness, sense of utter reality, meeting with deceased relatives, life review etc etc.

There have been a few reports of "OBE like" experiences caused by electrical stimulation of various parts of the brain, but the "OBE like" experiences were very atypical of a normal OBE and barely qualify to be called OBEs.

Until a scientist can induce a full-spectrum OBE experience of, say,  floating down a hall into another room, as a point of heightened consciousness, perhaps having 360 degree vision, and then returning with an accurate description of what was happening in the other room, until this happens, they can't claim to have induced an OBE.

[Xanth]

:-)For the science, OBE has always been a chalenge as it threatens the scientific concept of death.

I'm not sure if "threatens" is the right word... I mean, I don't think the scientific community really cares that much.  They wholly believe the idea to be a complete crock... so obviously they're not going to go and research it honestly.

As for myself, I don't need to prove any of this to anyone who doesn't already want to know or knows the truth. 

Until a scientist can induce a full-spectrum OBE experience of, say,  floating down a hall into another room, as a point of heightened consciousness, perhaps having 360 degree vision, and then returning with an accurate description of what was happening in the other room, until this happens, they can't claim to have induced an OBE.

I'll definitely second that!

[CFTraveler]

There have been a few reports of "OBE like" experiences caused by electrical stimulation of various parts of the brain, but the "OBE like" experiences were very atypical of a normal OBE and barely qualify to be called OBEs.

Until a scientist can induce a full-spectrum OBE experience of, say,  floating down a hall into another room, as a point of heightened consciousness, perhaps having 360 degree vision, and then returning with an accurate description of what was happening in the other room, until this happens, they can't claim to have induced an OBE.

This is correct.  All of the studies I've seen that use electrostim of the temporal lobe induce autoscopy, which is not OBE- it is not even similar except to the view of people that haven't experienced it.

[Summerlander]

The thing is, even drugs like ketamine alone can give you OOBEs. The God Helmet can give you OOBEs. And there is no way to determine whether the drug caused the illusion of "out-of-body", or that the drug really caused the favourable conditions through which consciousness is permitted to leave the body for real. Here's an article I posted on AVers ages ago:

http://astralviewers.com/random-chat/the-ketamine-explanation-of-ndes/

ps. Btw, ketamine is a very dangerous drug and I recommend that nobody touch it in order to have an OOBE. It could kill you.

[Nomesb69]

The thing is, even drugs like ketamine alone can give you OOBEs. The God Helmet can give you OOBEs. And there is no way to determine whether the drug caused the illusion of "out-of-body", or that the drug really caused the favourable conditions through which consciousness is permitted to leave the body for real. Here's an article I posted on AVers ages ago:

http://astralviewers.com/random-chat/the-ketamine-explanation-of-ndes/

ps. Btw, ketamine is a very dangerous drug and I recommend that nobody touch it in order to have an OOBE. It could kill you.

What do you know about the god helmet? Have you used it? I was interested in the shakti helmet which is modeled after the god helmet. I asked others here and got scared away from it as they said it is inducing temporal lobe seizures and that sounds bad.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/shakti_helmet-t32980.0.html

[Summerlander]

The God Helmet doesn't prove that the phenomena happens all in the brain, just that you can trigger the experience by influencing it with electromagnetic signals. What we are looking at here is magnetic stimulation of the brain (mainly the temporoparietal Junction). The device bombards the right temporal lobe with EMP and even that won't guarantee an OOBE among an array of odd experiences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

By the way, you can try the God Helmet at home:
http://www.badscience.net/2006/06/bring-me-a-god-helmet-and-bring-it-now/

Neurologists have suspected that the OOBE is triggered by a mismatch between visual and tactile signals and presented us with a virtual reality setup to recreate it. They managed to create an illusion of being behind and outside one's body which is not the real thing and even they, along with critics, admit that the study fell short of replicating "full-blown" OOBEs.

I once came across a study in that several people that had NDEs didn't even have neural activity visible on EEGs! Someone on Astral Viewers once pointed out that NDEs can't be produced by evolution which means that it isn't a result of just a physical brain. He pointed out that evolution is the passing on of certain traits to the next generation (from parents to child). He then asked "how can a parent pass on a trait to their child when they are dead?" - I found this quite profound and I am yet to find a scientist that has thought this through. The first explanation that springs to mind (especially in a community like this) is that the NDE is a product of consciousness rather than a product of the physical body.

Another thing I'd like to point out is neuroplasticity. The brain has its way of maintaining itself healthy! This in itself rules out the explanation that OOBEs are caused by any kind of trauma. If that was so, the brain would correct itself and most likely prevent such experiences from happening. If you want to accept that the OOBE is a brain anomaly then my question is why is the brain allowing itself to self-inflict damage? The OOBE is not trauma itself but it can indeed be caused by it as in NDEs. The potential of the OOBE is already existent. Learning to induce altered states creates neural pathways which bypass the normal process of trauma. This would also account for why hallucinogens can cause OOBEs. Such drugs could create a trauma-like trigger (on this note, I'd like to point out that galantamine is a nootropic that may increase your chances of having OOBEs).

About consciousness and awareness... Imagine that consciousness is metaphysical and it uses the brain to not only experience the physical world but to also maintain its awareness for as long as the body is capable of holding life. If you damage the brain your physical awareness would be affected, not consciousness itself. There is also a computer analogy for this. A computer is broken and you plug it into the electric current. The monitor won't light up or show any information and yet the electricity still runs through it.

And this is for those who claim to know with absolute certainty that death is purely physical and once it happens it is the end of consciousness: the end is unimaginable! You can't even imagine not having a memory of ever having existed during the comprehension of a concept such as time which is infinite even before you were born. If you are struggling with this already then chances are that you have existed before birth and so has everyone else.

By the way, you can make your own lucid dream machine:
http://www.instructables.com/id/The-Lucid-Dream-Machine/

[catmeow]

Thanks for all the info Summerlander.

I'm not convinced by the God Helmet, the site you linked explains that independent "double blind" attempts to verify it have failed to replicate the results.  No doubt electromagnetic stim of brain regions can have very definite effects. A recent BBC documentary showed that clinical electromagnetic stimulation of certain brain regions were able to completely releave chronic pain in a patient's arm, which had resisted all other forms of pain relief. However, the device used was a precision electromagnetic clinical device, probably costing £1000s, accurately directed, with a precisely timed dose, not a solenoid bought from RadioShack glued into a crash helmet!

I once came across a study in that several people that had NDEs didn't even have neural activity visible on EEGs

Absolutely correct. In clinical studies of cardiac arrest patients, NDEs have been reported when there was a flat EEG.  The cerebral cortex shows a flat EEG approximately 10-20 seconds after cessation of blood flow to the brain (Pim Van Lommel). Apparently some NDErs report, accurately, events that occurred in the operating theatre after this period, ie whilst they had a flat EEG.  A prospective study has been done by Dr Pim Van Lommel:

http://www.iands.org/old_site/research/important_studies/dr._pim_van_lommel_m.d._continuity_of_consciousness.html

Someone on Astral Viewers once pointed out that NDEs can't be produced by evolution which means that it isn't a result of just a physical brain

Actually, playing Devil's Advocate, I don't subscribe to this.  I believe that there is an argument for NDE and evolution.  It is quite possible that the NDE experience (whether it is real or not) has some sort of lasting benefit to the individuals who experience it, thereby improving their life skills and increasing their chance of survival.  This would propagate the gene.

Having said all of the above, and in spite of any devil's advocacy on my part, I truly believe that the NDE poses major problems to the popular science view that "brain generates mind".  There are too many difficulties; Events described accurately whilst the physical senses weren't functioning, heightened consciousness, and the life review. Also all ages, from 3 years upwards, and ALL cultures describe the same NDE elements, in approximately the same order (floating, seeing body, tunnel, light, life review, deceased relatives, return to body etc etc):

If nothing else, read the reviews of this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Consciousness-Beyond-Life-Near-Death-Experience/dp/0061777250/

[Summerlander]

Oh wow! Nice one, catmeow! I'm gonna check the links you posted.

Actually, playing Devil's Advocate, I don't subscribe to this.  I believe that there is an argument for NDE and evolution.  It is quite possible that the NDE experience (whether it is real or not) has some sort of lasting benefit to the individuals who experience it, thereby improving their life skills and increasing their chance of survival.  This would propagate the gene.

You argued your case well here. One might say what about the unpleasant NDEs (what benefit do they bring)? But then again there's the possibility that the mind is trying to make you deal with fear and certain issues. Also, unpleasant NDEs still carry the benefit that they still seem to reinforce the idea of continuity of consciousness post-death for the individual who experiences them.

Thanks for the input!