I'm sure that many of us have been exposed, on small level, to the increasingly popular idea of Out of Body Experiences. Believers, and more importantly those of "experience", have stated time and time again, in now almost countless books that the experience of leaving ones body is in fact more real than waking life itself. They state that it's such a profoud experience that it can't be denied any more than denying that we are alive right now (which some philosophers do in fact argue atimately). The problem with this is that we have to take the stories at face value. After all, how can it be proven? How do you test and retest and scrutinize the existence of conciousness outside the body? An important question would be whether or not we can know, beyond science, the validity of an OBE?
Obviously with something like this there will be much doubt. But with so many individuals claiming to experience this state of conciousness it can't be simply overlooked. It's entirely probable that they whole-heartedly believe they did in fact leave there bodies. So the most obvious answer is a hallucination within the mind. They can be powerful things. We won't go into discussion at this time as to the physiological reasons why the hallucination occurs... unless someone has a theory. The question is "why is it believed to be so real?" If the hallucination was doing it's job right then it would clearly be experienced as reality.
The next idea is a dream state. After all, every human has experienced a dream. A state in which during the experience you believe it to be reality. But as individuals we can define a dream by that state that seems real at the time, but upon waking was obvious an inner working of the mind itself. So why is it that after an OBE the individual still believes the experience to be real and valid and not a the dream state that we are all accustomed to?
Opinions and insights?
Search these forums for the same argument which will show both sides of the argument.
I think its more on the dream side . Its just a dream but in a totally different way and weird that can get you in your house...
I think the most logical non-spiritual explanation is that the brain loses it's sensory input as the body shuts down while you're conscious, and then the subconscious fills in the rest.
BUT that cannot explain spontaneous OBEs that sometimes happen while you are fully awake and active.
A couple of thoughts: In a regular old non-lucid dream the subconscious in in charge, therefore anything seems real, and is accepted. Only upon awakening we 'realize' that a 20 ft Gorilla couldn't fit in through the window and eat me, but stuff like this is unquestioningly accepted.
In a projection experience, usually the surroundings are not considered to 'look normal', in fact, most experiencers realize things are not as they are supposed-at the time it's happening- but things progress as they would if your consciousness were 'out of body'. In other words, you go through walls, fly and are unable to affect 'concrete reality' no matter how you try. But you don't think that is normal and is as should be, as you would, in waking life. So the third option is a lucid dream. Except, most projectors are Lucid Dreamers, and do report differences in both LD's and OBEs. In other words, if I dream I OB'd, as I have in the past, I know I'm dreaming, but other times I've seen things that would only be explained by my consciousness having access to information not available to me as I slept. (Whether I left my body is almost beside the point)
There is ample evidence for at least some OBEs to have been verified, so it's not a matter of discounting all of them as hallucinations projected by the dreaming mind. Some may be, but some are not. Sure, they can be explained 'away' by someone who will not believe that individual consciousness can leave the body, but that would not be very scientific, now would it?
Actually I don't see how science applies at all. Researching OBE is not a scientific step, yet anyways, progress is being made. This is because it still can't be proved, and it can't be tested or retested with any controlled variable. It comes down to a belief system. People are asked why they believe in God. They say faith, or that they just know in their soul that He exists. But prove it, just can't be done. Same with OBE. You can say that you've had one, and that it was definitely real, but other than on a personal level how can it be taken all that seriously? I myself am a believer, so don't kill me for playing the devil's advocate... but how much I believe them is limited. I don't disbelieve that they are true, I just think that perhaps they've been construed out wrongly. You say yourself that many OBEr's don't differentiate between lucid dreams and OBE. I've had some very intense and wonderful lucid dreams before, but I know that they are still only aspects of my subconscious mind and not waking life, however fun they may be. I think the problem lies in the fact that many "spiritual insights" are being achieved in the OB state and there is a growing number in followers. But we all know how creative the dream state can be. I have received many insightful and intelligent ideas within my dreams, many of which I can't remember. But to push forward and call it the "future of humanity" as I have seen so often may be as dangerous as organizing a new religion. To truly be open minded here we need to consider discounting them as reality all together. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
"The AlphaOmega wrote:
Quote"Actually I don't see how science applies at all. Researching OBE is not a scientific step, yet anyways, progress is being made. This is because it still can't be proved, and it can't be tested or retested with any controlled variable. It comes down to a belief system
.
I agree that the belief that you actually got out of your body is just that, a belief, but the information about actual events that can be verified is not. Whether that demonstrates esp or nonlocality or some other explanation is not the point- sometimes the information is verified. Now, I'm not talking about spiritual of religious information- I am talking about where someone was and what they were doing at a particular time. This is not verifiable by scientific experiment but it's been verified by another person to have happened as I experienced it, for example.
QuoteI myself am a believer, so don't kill me for playing the devil's advocate... but how much I believe them is limited. I don't disbelieve that they are true, I just think that perhaps they've been construed out wrongly.
I agree there- we may be talking about a variety of things, some considered paranormal, and some psychologically induced.
QuoteYou say yourself that many OBEr's don't differentiate between lucid dreams and OBE. I've had some very intense and wonderful lucid dreams before, but I know that they are still only aspects of my subconscious mind and not waking life, however fun they may be.
So far so good- We think similarly.
QuoteI think the problem lies in the fact that many "spiritual insights" are being achieved in the OB state and there is a growing number in followers. But we all know how creative the dream state can be. I have received many insightful and intelligent ideas within my dreams, many of which I can't remember. But to push forward and call it the "future of humanity" as I have seen so often may be as dangerous as organizing a new religion.
I also agree with this.
QuoteTo truly be open minded here we need to consider discounting them as reality all together. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
I agree we should be open enough to discount them as
objective reality, but not necessarily as reality, because sometimes our subconscious can teach us things about ourselves that we wouldn't learn otherwise, and ignoring insights about ourselves would be throwing away the baby with the bathwater.
ps. Please notice I said ourselves! :wink:
QuoteSo why is it that after an OBE the individual still believes the experience to be real and valid and not a the dream state that we are all accustomed to?
I thought the same before i started having experiences... u are aware when u obe... you are not sleeping like in a dream. You feel like it is real... same as you're feeling the chair you're sitting on right now... You know for a fact that you are out the body and that you're obe'ing. When you have a dream, you don't think... "oh snap im dreaming!"... a dream just takes place and that's it.
Whatever an OBE is... whether we're actualy leaving the body, dreaming, dying... whatever. I'm alive and well right now... I live like anyother person and OBE'ing is an amazing experience on both physical and spiritual levels. You shouldn't care whatever it is :)
don't question everything. just take it all at face value. have your experience; whatever that may be, you decide. my experiences also seem pretty "real", although real is a pretty broad term. when in that state it is just a different aspect of seeing whatever reality is
Once again, sorry for playing the devils advocate... but YES, DO QUESTION EVERYTHING. If something is questioned then in due time it's truthfulness will emerse. To accept something immediately is to deny our very human right of "ponderance". If God did not want us to question, He would not have bestowed upon us the ability to question, which is endowed with free will. It's only through questioning that we discover the truthfulness of that which we question.
Quote from: The AlphaOmegaOnce again, sorry for playing the devils advocate... but YES, DO QUESTION EVERYTHING.
Couldn't agree more.
Statistical analyses can be used to prove information gathered during an OBE is real, but it doesn't explain how or why - that's where a theory or an interpretation is needed, and proving it would be virtually impossible.
The new scientist had an article a while ago (not directly about AP or SP), where they paralysed volunteers arms and told them to try to move them. The volunteers (not being able to see their arms) said they could feel them moving, when in fact they were not, kind of like the phantom limbs that amputees experience. The theory is that the sensation of movement is produced when the brain sends a signal to a muscle to contract, and that the muscle doesn't actually have to contract for the sensation to be experienced.
I think if there is to be a materialistic explanation for AP, it should be broken down into smaller pieces and each of those tackled individually. I know a lot of my experiences start blind and in sleep paralysis - it's the sensation of movement that occurs first. So the sensation of movement, at least, can be explained in a reasonably logical way.
Here's my experience on it. Personally, I don't believe I've ever left my body. Many many times in these "experiences" I've been faced with situations that make it seem as though I'm having an OBE but a little subjective observation will make it obvious this is not the case. I don't personally believe in OBE at least not in the sense of going around the real physical world and viewing real events etc.. What CAN and often DOES happen is your mind will recreate real life areas and you can't tell the difference.. most people are predisposed to believing these illusions when people tell them these experiences are OBEs.
So what do I think is happening? They're all dreams. By dreams I simply mean your mind is creating the reality. Your physical body, at least all minus the brain, has zero relevance to the *completely real* reality you'll experience. The only true question remains is mind separate from the brain.
Quote from: The AlphaOmegaOnce again, sorry for playing the devils advocate... but YES, DO QUESTION EVERYTHING. If something is questioned then in due time it's truthfulness will emerse. To accept something immediately is to deny our very human right of "ponderance". If God did not want us to question, He would not have bestowed upon us the ability to question, which is endowed with free will. It's only through questioning that we discover the truthfulness of that which we question.
I agree with this also. To arrive at an answer you must question.
just over a year ago i was a complete skeptic and refused to beleive that any of this stuff (dreams, obes) was outside your physical brain in any way. but in the past year ive learnt and predicted information from these states that there is no way my physical body could possibly have obtained any other way.
ive shared dreams with people, had preminitions which i told other people and wrote down before they happened, loads of stuff. thats just my story though, its down to you if you want to investigate and prove to yourself.
also i think obes have been scientifically proven, i watched a documentary about them a while ago where a woman who was literally killed while they performed brain surgery then revived managed to describe things theres no way she could have perceived when dead.
Quote from: Tehalso i think obes have been scientifically proven, i watched a documentary about them a while ago where a woman who was literally killed while they performed brain surgery then revived managed to describe things theres no way she could have perceived when dead.
Doesn't mean they've been scientifically proven. They have to be reproducable in the lab.
Also, there's the possibility that this knowledge was gained in another way. ESP, telepathy, etc., so while it may be paranormal there's no proof it's an OBE.
Dingo, exactly. So many people confuse scientific evidence with "more than possibility". It's possible that the woman did know things she shouldn't have known if dead. And I too have heard stories of individuals that have actually been in a morgue for more than 3 days, had a NDE, and was then revived. The fact that their stories are accurate means it's something that should be looked into... but scientific proof it definitely isn't. The brain is and has always been a complicated thing. The average person uses 1/100th of it's potential. "Brain dead" might not be what we think it is. Science is a relatively new discipline, and when it comes to the brain, we're anything but certain about it. It will take more research (scientifically) to really understand the vastness of the mind/brain, of which we haven't even learned are independent or not of each other. All we can be sure of is that there isn't enough knowledge to accept these phenomena as absolute truth unless you abandon reason. And as they say, to abandon reason is the most unreasonable thing you can do.
PS... Dingo (Frank)... "why do you wear that stupid man suite"? :wink: Dig the Avatar!
you certainly have some good points there which i hadn't considered so... thank you i suppose. youre right that its difficult to prove it in lab conditions, but i think (im not sure at all) that monroe did set up experiments where able volunteers would obe and read something in the room next to them... or it was something similar. so yeah it can be done in lab conditions like that, where all the volunteers report being out of their bodies so therefore it is an obe and not esp or whatever.
the question that arises from that however, is why hasnt it been thoroughly examined in that way yet..
The reason would be that skillful astral projectors are hard to find. Hardly anyone can project at will exactly when they want and find what they're meant to find.
If my memory's correct, Monroe did not find the numbers in the other room that he needed to find but he did correctly recall a conversation going on that he couldn't have known about. Things like that couldn't be used in the analysis.
And besides that, I don't think the general public is aware that people induce OBEs. If you ask a random person on the street they'll probably only know about NDEs, so the number of AP-aware parapsychology researchers is probably low.
Good point. For society to really get to the nitty gritty and study OBE's researchers need to find valid interest in them. But it doesn't just begin there. There has to be enough reasonable evidence to support the probability of induced OBE's for the scientific community to supply funding enough to prove or disprove the phenomenon. And we're probably some years away I think. Despite the fact that there is far more interest in the subject then 30 years ago, and that you can easily find a number of books on OBE, for the most part many, MANY people just don't care about it. Even, or perhaps especially, people that already believe in God and their religion so profoundly. Yes I'd have to say that for now it remains a personal experience open to impossible interpretation by anyone else. We may be able to study electrical impulses in the brain and observe the activity of the two hemispheres during an alleged OBE. But to know what the brain activity really means or observe the experience that the individual is having is anything but possible.
Quote from: The AlphaOmegaI'm sure that many of us have been exposed, on small level, to the increasingly popular idea of Out of Body Experiences. Believers, and more importantly those of "experience", have stated time and time again, in now almost countless books that the experience of leaving ones body is in fact more real than waking life itself. They state that it's such a profoud experience that it can't be denied any more than denying that we are alive right now (which some philosophers do in fact argue atimately). The problem with this is that we have to take the stories at face value. After all, how can it be proven? How do you test and retest and scrutinize the existence of conciousness outside the body? An important question would be whether or not we can know, beyond science, the validity of an OBE?
Obviously with something like this there will be much doubt. But with so many individuals claiming to experience this state of conciousness it can't be simply overlooked. It's entirely probable that they whole-heartedly believe they did in fact leave there bodies. So the most obvious answer is a hallucination within the mind. They can be powerful things. We won't go into discussion at this time as to the physiological reasons why the hallucination occurs... unless someone has a theory. The question is "why is it believed to be so real?" If the hallucination was doing it's job right then it would clearly be experienced as reality.
The next idea is a dream state. After all, every human has experienced a dream. A state in which during the experience you believe it to be reality. But as individuals we can define a dream by that state that seems real at the time, but upon waking was obvious an inner working of the mind itself. So why is it that after an OBE the individual still believes the experience to be real and valid and not a the dream state that we are all accustomed to?
Opinions and insights?
OBEs are whatever you believe them to be.
If you believe they are products of your brain, products of your brain they will become. If you believe they are a gateway to other worlds, a gateway to other worlds they will become.
The point isnt are they "real" or "not real." Your asking the wrong question. These people arent lying about their experiences. The question is "what are they." Once you get past the question you are currently at, which is basically "can i do them or not myself", you just dont know it, you can get to the real good parts. Because once you realize they do indeed exist you can subscribe to a belief in OBEs. and that is the most important part. Belief.
If you sincerely believe in out of body experiences, and you believe you can have them, you will. All these techniques and rules and beliefs and ideas serve one purpose- to change your belief from "obes are not real." to "i am having an obe."
Dont believe me? Try it yourself. Open up your doors of belief for awhile and see where it takes you. Changing your beliefs doesnt hurt anything anyway. And i guarentee you wont be sorry you did :D
Quote from: Tehyou certainly have some good points there which i hadn't considered so... thank you i suppose. youre right that its difficult to prove it in lab conditions, but i think (im not sure at all) that monroe did set up experiments where able volunteers would obe and read something in the room next to them... or it was something similar. so yeah it can be done in lab conditions like that, where all the volunteers report being out of their bodies so therefore it is an obe and not esp or whatever.
the question that arises from that however, is why hasnt it been thoroughly examined in that way yet..
Monroe tried doing this with Charles tart. Every experiment failed. Either the numbers wern't correct, or he didn't make it as far as the room with the numbers in.
Quote from: Ben K
OBEs are whatever you believe them to be.
If you believe they are products of your brain, products of your brain they will become. If you believe they are a gateway to other worlds, a gateway to other worlds they will become.
The point isnt are they "real" or "not real." Your asking the wrong question. These people arent lying about their experiences. The question is "what are they." Once you get past the question you are currently at, which is basically "can i do them or not myself", you just dont know it, you can get to the real good parts. Because once you realize they do indeed exist you can subscribe to a belief in OBEs. and that is the most important part. Belief.
If you sincerely believe in out of body experiences, and you believe you can have them, you will. All these techniques and rules and beliefs and ideas serve one purpose- to change your belief from "obes are not real." to "i am having an obe."
Dont believe me? Try it yourself. Open up your doors of belief for awhile and see where it takes you. Changing your beliefs doesnt hurt anything anyway. And i guarentee you wont be sorry you did :D
I'm not sure I follow this 100%. I think one can believe in OBEs, but be unsure of the dogma attached to them i.e. that we are actually leaving our body, that they undeniably prove life after death etc. They are interesting experiences in their own rights irregardless of what they truly symbolise.
If we follow astral doctrines, then it should easily be possible to produce some form of verifiable experiments. But to date, any experiment has produced questionable results at best.
I agree that we can ignore any scientific considerations of OBEs and go about enjoying them on our own. When we die either our experiences will be validated, or we won't hold awareness that they're not.
But the way I see it, my sense of exploration drove me to attempt to produce OBEs at will. That same sense of discovery desires to find out if OBEs are more than just brain generated experiences. People say that's a waste, but one can go exploring distant planes sometimes, and then at other times they can try and produce verifiable evidence.
People have a bit of a biased view against the scientific community, but if a verifiable, repeatable method of producing OBEs which seemed to allow the OBE'ers to view data external to themselves was discovered. Research would be done into that area.
But if there just a trick of the mind they are really same for every body. Its so similar the story of everyone and what the astral world look like...
Quote from: Sepultura123But if there just a trick of the mind they are really same for every body. Its so similar the story of everyone and what the astral world look like...
I don't know. It seems very rare to hear of people stating similar experiences to do with the astral. Each interprets everything through belief system, existing knowledge to date etc and so seems to get a different experience. Even the AP 'Gurus' don;t really agree on the structure and layout.
This is not to say the astral is only in the mind (although if you look at the biggest picture... ;))
I guess what I'm trying to say is whatever our view its just a belief. So why not attempt to get varification which could be useful in prooving the validity of the OBE state either way. There are some great posts around to do with varification experiments.
Actually MisterJingo, the experiences with OBE are quite similar, at least in terms of inducing. Now when it comes to OBE the actual "experience" itself is no more common than the same dream one would have with somoneone else. Purely independent and personal of each other. But the sensations and events that occur BEFORE or/and during an OBE are actually quite similar. This in no way suggests validity, but commonality. Most astral explorers explain that the reason their experiences are similar with others is because they are valid and true. Scientifically that doesn't hold water. The way that science diagnosis and evaluates symptoms in accordance to the disease is through their commonality. Everything from retardation to allergies are characterized by common symptoms, which have been scientifically prooven. So to state that OBE are true because they have similar characteristics simply means that it's possible that OBE's are a mental state that exhibit the same characteristics. To date there is no reason to believe they are more than lucid dreams, or at worst, hallucinations. It still, and for many years, will remain in a state of belief. So far it remains nothing more, if not less, than a pseudoscience. Categorized with astrology, palm reading, Scientology and faith. When trying to prove something that one believes to be important I must always (and have already) emphasized one fact.....
EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY PROOF!!!
There is no logical, philosophical or rational reason to believe in anything that can't be reasonably prooven!
The problem is, alpha, that science isnt to the point were we can provide this "proof" to the general population. We're getting there, in 20 to 40 years everyone will be "projecting" through the use of computer software and all this stuff will be common knowledge.
Also, its not smart to think of hallucinations as "not real." when you do project you will be seeing ALOT of hallucinations as they are just products of your emotions.
Quote from: Ben KThe problem is, alpha, that science isnt to the point were we can provide this "proof" to the general population. We're getting there, in 20 to 40 years everyone will be "projecting" through the use of computer software and all this stuff will be common knowledge.
Also, its not smart to think of hallucinations as "not real." when you do project you will be seeing ALOT of hallucinations as they are just products of your emotions.
You could, with modern techniques, scientifically prove that information gained during an RTZ OBE is correct. Just because it isn't in the general scientific consensus doesn't mean it can't be proved.
I would agree that the most accurate way to test the validity of OBE would probably be conducted in the RTZ. I realize that Monroe did conduct many of his own personal experiments with the RTZ with some hopeful results. One in which he went OOB and traveled to his office to lightly pinch his secretary. The result was that he pinched quite hard and gave her a bruise. Unless it were a hoax (which wouldn't be all that difficult to pull off) instances such as that would be very hard to explain away as not real. As far as hallucinations however I don't think it would be "not smart" to say they are not real. That would bring us deep into philosophy I imagine, but basically it's an argument as to whether or not truth and perception are the same thing. Some would say that because you see something it must be there, because at least it's true for that one individual. The counterpoint is that if we see something that isn't there that doesn't mean the object is true, but that perception has been altered away from truth. I would argue that hallucinations are not truth but that the individual experiencing them is being decieved, mainly by him or herself. To hear voices doesn't mean that anyone is talking to you but that the mind has somehow triggered within itself that act which it would undertake if someone were actually talking to you. The brain is decieved and the hallucination of the voices is not truth. It could be said that if OBE are in fact real then the RTZ would most likely be the most reliable info because it can be varified, whereas traveling to other dimensions or speaking with dead relatives could be the mind undertaking the same act as it would in dreams or hallucinations, and therefor potentially be "not real".
Quote from: dingoQuote from: Ben KThe problem is, alpha, that science isnt to the point were we can provide this "proof" to the general population. We're getting there, in 20 to 40 years everyone will be "projecting" through the use of computer software and all this stuff will be common knowledge.
Also, its not smart to think of hallucinations as "not real." when you do project you will be seeing ALOT of hallucinations as they are just products of your emotions.
You could, with modern techniques, scientifically prove that information gained during an RTZ OBE is correct. Just because it isn't in the general scientific consensus doesn't mean it can't be proved.
no, but proof isnt the factor here, its belief. you can give a scientist as many undocumented cases of people proving something in the RTZ you want and they wont care. as long as its not done in a lab using scientific method it is garbage in the eyes of science.
Quote from: The AlphaOmegaI would agree that the most accurate way to test the validity of OBE would probably be conducted in the RTZ. I realize that Monroe did conduct many of his own personal experiments with the RTZ with some hopeful results. One in which he went OOB and traveled to his office to lightly pinch his secretary. The result was that he pinched quite hard and gave her a bruise. Unless it were a hoax (which wouldn't be all that difficult to pull off) instances such as that would be very hard to explain away as not real. As far as hallucinations however I don't think it would be "not smart" to say they are not real. That would bring us deep into philosophy I imagine, but basically it's an argument as to whether or not truth and perception are the same thing. Some would say that because you see something it must be there, because at least it's true for that one individual. The counterpoint is that if we see something that isn't there that doesn't mean the object is true, but that perception has been altered away from truth. I would argue that hallucinations are not truth but that the individual experiencing them is being decieved, mainly by him or herself. To hear voices doesn't mean that anyone is talking to you but that the mind has somehow triggered within itself that act which it would undertake if someone were actually talking to you. The brain is decieved and the hallucination of the voices is not truth. It could be said that if OBE are in fact real then the RTZ would most likely be the most reliable info because it can be varified, whereas traveling to other dimensions or speaking with dead relatives could be the mind undertaking the same act as it would in dreams or hallucinations, and therefor potentially be "not real".
For all intents and purposes, hallucinations are indeed real. But many people have adopted a way of thinking that suggests whats in your mind is somehow NOT real. Your thoughts are just as real as the keyboard your typing on. You just arent percieving the energies the same way.
I think it all stems from the belief that your mind = your brain. They are two VERY different things that serve very different purposes. after all its not your mind controlling the keys you type on when you are entering a message on the keyboard, its your brain. your mind is just telling your brain what to type.
Quote from: The AlphaOmegaI would agree that the most accurate way to test the validity of OBE would probably be conducted in the RTZ. I realize that Monroe did conduct many of his own personal experiments with the RTZ with some hopeful results. One in which he went OOB and traveled to his office to lightly pinch his secretary. The result was that he pinched quite hard and gave her a bruise. Unless it were a hoax (which wouldn't be all that difficult to pull off) instances such as that would be very hard to explain away as not real. As far as hallucinations however I don't think it would be "not smart" to say they are not real. That would bring us deep into philosophy I imagine, but basically it's an argument as to whether or not truth and perception are the same thing. Some would say that because you see something it must be there, because at least it's true for that one individual. The counterpoint is that if we see something that isn't there that doesn't mean the object is true, but that perception has been altered away from truth. I would argue that hallucinations are not truth but that the individual experiencing them is being decieved, mainly by him or herself. To hear voices doesn't mean that anyone is talking to you but that the mind has somehow triggered within itself that act which it would undertake if someone were actually talking to you. The brain is decieved and the hallucination of the voices is not truth. It could be said that if OBE are in fact real then the RTZ would most likely be the most reliable info because it can be varified, whereas traveling to other dimensions or speaking with dead relatives could be the mind undertaking the same act as it would in dreams or hallucinations, and therefor potentially be "not real".
I have to agree that you have good points there and if the pinch is not a hoax , its incredible.
Ap Friends,
I had to jump into this discussion and throw out my own .2 on the issue.
Anytime that we project, leave our bodies, subjectively share our experiences, try to validate and prove that it was real or not. It should be exercised carefully and questioned. It is healthy and natural to question the validation if there is an external world inside/outside.
I do think the best way to go about this is to go the distance and keep track of experiences, scientific experiments, validations, and share your findings with the forum.
We are all trying to prove that there is life after death thru oobe. We can't ignore these experiences because they happen and there are common threads to them. Also, we need to look at the NDE (near death experiences) and what that has stirred. They are so many cases of validations it can't be ignored or passed off as a mental state of being.
Here's a link that you can read up on and judge for youself:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21918&highlight=
Another link that CNN posted today that deffinitely shows interest:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22082
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/02/10/political.whodunit.ap/index.html
Tvos
Who says the two need be separate?
In my opinion, the spiritual and psychological are both being controlled by the same phenomenon.
The brain is just an interface we use to interact with the physical plane.
the_rabbi i couldnt agree with you more at this point
Exactly
I agree with TVOS that the OBE phenomenon seems to allow experiences which appear to be outside of our current scientific understanding.
I myself have a desire to explore the OBE state deeper due to some things which I cannot explain.
But to say things like the brain is just an interface is a desire and a belief. There really is no way of knowing such a thing at this point in time, so for now, we carry on exploring within an objective framework.
An equally feasible possibility is that the mind is an emergent property from brain activity, and OBEs are reliant on a living brain i.e. death brings oblivion. There could be many hypothesis which are as feasible as the current OBE 'after death survival' belief systems which could explain how we seem to move outside of our body, how we seem to contact dead people and how we seem to gain knowledge outside of our immediate locale.
But as things stand, either way we don't know. To hold one view without proof is to stifle discovery. Not pointing at any forum in particular, but a lot of spiritual based forums seems to go in hysterics when you mention science or objectivity. People see them as threats and would rather explore and exist in the belief systems they have built. I would rather find the 'truth' however much unpalatable it might turn out to be.
So rather than defend one position or another, we should find ways of testing the validity of the OBE state and producing some form of reproducible experiments which will further our knowable of the state and, hopefully, draw scientific interest and funding to this area. I'm not fooling myself that such things will happen any time soon, but without making a start, that day will never come.
Also, regardless of the deeper implications of the OBE state, the fact such a state can be experienced at all is enough for further research imo.