First off, how do you know that you went to the "Real time zone" and not just a astral thought form zone of your creation? Maybe that's what you did. By stating your intention to go to boston on high noon you created your own thought form world (or targeted an existing one) and headed there, to the astral proper.
At any rate, if astral projects are dreams, how did Robert Bruce use real time sight to see an actual projector and confirm the meeting a few minutes later with his friend in the next room. You can argue that it was only esp, but I would argue that it's only a part of the mind that travels away anyways, thus esp and ap are 2 facets of the same things anyways.
That is just my point: i don't know if I went to a "Real Time Zone" or merely created a series of astral thought forms. But in the latter case, why not speculate that OBEs are nothing more than creating your own so-called "astram thought forms, " and never encounters with real spirits. As I said, lucid dream states are psi-conducive. So what's the difference. Besides, I have personally experienced genuine premonitions of impending disasters in my own dreams. But thanks for taking my seriously.
Regards,
Don
So if you interact psychically with a spirit, in a environment created by thought, and you are only there in mind, isn't that the same thing as a astral projection? I would think that would still be real. It's in effect the same thing as turning into a spirit and actually traveling outside the body I guess. Which is more real? I'd say both.
"Mere" lucid dream is the first thing - just what exactly is a lucid dream?
Secondly, in experience number 3, the only thing that seems to prove to you that you're just dreaming is that you are telling yourself that you are. How are you so sure that it was a product of your imagination?
Beserk, you seem to be substituting sensational vividness for reality. There is no such attachment - you can have one and not the other, both, or neither.
For instance, I've had dreams so solid I could feel my pulse (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12365). But then I had another so vague, the only things I could really notice where 5 shiny pennies on a carpet. The following day I found exactly 5 pennies in the main entrance of my high school, and they were dirty.
Oddly, you don't even seem to need convincing of this concept. This is a good concept to bring into the light anyways. People feel they need drugs and alcohol to experience reality with different levels of vividness, but this whole forum suggests otherwise.
quote:
She looked at me in disbelief the way a real stranger would if I had grabbed her in real life. I argued with her, but to no avail. I began to feel like a real kook; so I returned to my body. This experience was just as real, vivid, and detalied as any of my OBEs, but, clearly, it was merely the product of my imagination. This experience devastated any hope I had that at least one of my other OBE experiences had been real.
I disagree with your statement "merely a product of my imagination" but unfortunately I don't have any evidence to back up my opinions... [:)]
Looking back on experiences I've had, they have been as "real" as day-to-day living. In fact, comparing my memories of these bizarre incidents to my memories of "real-life" events, I find no way to differentiate between them.
i guess that what I'm saying, is that perhaps the "figments of your imagination" aren't as fictional as you might seem !
Berserk, I see nothing in your post that suggests that all OBEs are mere lucid dreams. It does - however - make sense to me that most 'OBEs' would be like yours was, turning into a dream. When you are Out-of-body, you don't have eyes, so it's very easy for your perception to be distorted by your own mind until it's just the same as a dream.
It is very difficult and rare skill to be able to perceive the world 'as it is' (so-called 'RTZ') consistently.
Isn't everyone that you interact with in the real world just a figment of your imagination anyway? If you really break it down; all you're perception of other people is, is light bouncing off of them, through a lens and converted to an electrical signal which your individual brain interprets as best as it can and sends that signal to your conciousness. Which, I imagine is why you percieve you completely differently than i percieve me. Perhaps when a girl looks in a mirror, and she is "just noticing" her imperfections; perhaps her perception of herself is different.
So really, no matter what state of mind you are in, your perception of others is entirely governed by your brain. To a point, figments of your imagination.
So maybe that woman was a figment of your imagination. But maybe she was an astral traveller as well just role playing a business woman in the astral; and you running around proclaiming your divinity.. Well, if i was travelling and someone was grabbing my "arm" screaming that they are god... I'd look at you like you were crazy too [:D]
I would agree with you were it not for a Lucid dream I had a while ago. I learned that the people we meet in these so called "fictional" or "generated" dream inviroments are not all the same. Some definately are fiction dream created but some are observing us and what and how we act and some are "players" but much more real and seem to be travelers themselves. Maybe thy are dreamers. I could write the experience in detail but it is soooo long.
Regards Mustardseed
what you are experiencing is indeed an out of body experience, but you achieve them through dreams from what it looks like. when you become lucid in a dream, you are still out of body, but you are not in regular astral that also inhibits physical. in fact you are in a world you have created with your mind. a good way to put it is you projected inward instead of out. sure you can project into real-time from a dream but not unless you think of a real place. dont get distressed by your experiences, have fun in your pseudo reality and play around with it some more. the possibilities are endless!
I have read many books on NDEs and astral projection, including all of Bob Monroe's and Robert Bruce's "Astral Dynamics." I also own and have begun exploring Monroe's Gateway tapes. Despite the alleged paranormal corrorborations, I remain unconvinced for many reasons, but wish it were otherwise. Lab studies have demonstrated that ucid dream states are quite conducive to ESP experiences. So ESP during OBEs is no proof that the experience is real. On another post, I will offer my critique of astral adepts, but in this post I seek reactions to just 3 of my own OBE experiences. OBE #3 changed my mind about OBEs #1 and 2 and convinced me that my astral adventures were nothing more than lucid dreams.
OBE #1: I bought a book on self-hypnosis and made a tape of my own voice to hypnotize myself as i fell asleep. Originally, I opted for the suggeston that I would have an erotic experience, but then changed my mind and opted for a more spiritual experience. I suddently found myself floating near the ceiling and looking down at my body. I saw myself as if I was gazing at a body at the bottom of a YMCA pool. The light was a bit wavy. When I decided to launch out, I realized that I was under the spell of my initial suggestion to have an erotic experience. I was sure I was OBE and so thought that such a desire might be dangerous, an encounter with an unknown spirit. But it was made clear to me that erotic encounters were my only option then! So I decided to get back into my body. I was suddenly horrifed by the thought that I didn't know how. I floated down and lay across my sleeping body in the hopes of merging. But when I wiggled my astral finger, it remained separate from my physical finger. I panicked and my fear woke my up.
OBE #2: I heard that Janet, an old girlfriend, had shot herself. During our relationship, I couldn't cope with her clinical depression and broke off the relationship close to engagement. But I loved her dearly and found her suicide intolerable. One night I found myself floating through the astral ether to a small booth. Inside was a woman at a desk. Behind her was a fluttering green curtain. I told her that I must see Janet. The lady replied that Janet had only recently arrived and wasn't ready to see me. I roared, "BUT I MUST SEE HER NOW!" My outburst was energized by a combination of love and rage, rage at the thought that she might be in desperate straits. Immediately the lady vanished, the curtains shook wildly and Janet suddenly appeared, but as a little girl, not as the mature young woman I had known. We embraced passionately and she kept reassuring me, "I'm all right, Sweetie! I'm all right!" When I woke up, I felt profoundly reassured that she was OK, but OBE #3 soon undermined that assurance.
OBE #3: I "woke up" and realized I was dreaming and that I was lying "back there' in bed. I decided to test my theory that Monroe's experiences were a form of lucid dreaming or its equivalent in waking trance states. So I placed my intent to go to Boston at high noon. In fact, it was midnight in Western New York, but I immediately found myself across from Boston Commons at noon. I mean, I was really there! i smelled the car fumes, heard the honking, the din of traffic, and a cacophany of noise from blending conversations. I saw hundred of people on lunch break scurrying around. But I was dreaming. I had created all these people. I was god in this dream universe.
To test this, I grabbed the arm of the next lady who walked by. She screamed and was terrified. I reminded her that she was merely a figment of my imagination and that I, "the creator", was lying "back there" in bed concocting this scene. She looked at me in disbelief the way a real stranger would if I had grabbed her in real life. I argued with her, but to no avail. I began to feel like a real kook; so I returned to my body. This experience was just as real, vivid, and detalied as any of my OBEs, but, clearly, it was merely the product of my imagination. This experience devastated any hope I had that at least one of my other OBE experiences had been real. Perhaps I would feel differently if I could project from waking consciousness, but I doubt it. What is your reaction?
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