It's not necessary to go through all the motions of determining whether or not OBEs are dreams by investigating OBE itself. You can simply become aware of the overall truth as explained in The Disappearance of the Universe, and everything else will come into perspective as your understanding of the truth increases.
Here are some of the things about OBEs and lucid dreams and such that I've become aware of, or become strong enough to accept, since becoming aware of truth.
Notice that some OBE authors had a more definite theory about astral projection than other authors. You can read the book The Practice of Magic by Draja Mickaharic. On pages 87 thru 89 in this book he mentions that while OBE one can lift physical objects generally up to about a third of their physical weight, write messages to leave for people in locked rooms, and eventually do just about anything they would otherwise be able to do if they were physically there.
And he definitely insists that concrete results can be obtained with astral projection, and that if concrete results cannot be obtained one is just indulging in self-delusion or fantasizing. He advises that these projected fantasies can very well involve a number other people.
Yet contemporary literature and authors, like Astral Dynamics by Robert Bruce, and his subsequent 90-day training manual Mastering Astral Projection, mention things like reality fluctuations and slipping into the astral planes. How can you ever determine if it is a dream or not if you can simply explain away the dreamlike nature as a part of the experience itself?
Whereas before like with Draja you are either OBE or not, and if you are OBE you are seeing definite things and can do objective things like move physical objects (see The Practice of Magic, pages 87 thru 89), now if you 'get out' and everything is different that what you would expect, you are at the least experiencing a lucid dream, or you are either experiencing reality fluctuations, or you have faded into the astral dimension (see MAP page page 226).
Where is there room to determine if it is anything but a dream?? [You can use the 'search inside' feature at Amazon.com to review these pages.] The REAL alternative is much better (See The Disappearance of the Universe).
I've have personal discussion with a prominent author on OBE literature, and even after writing his book and teaching workshops and stuff as if it's all real, he told me he's still trying to find out if its real- still professing publicly that it's all real, even in the face of direct assessment that his experiences are dreams.
I had relations with a less prominent but very proficient 'out-of-body traveler', and when I was a rookie he had a rock solid veneer of knowing its true and real and having definite experiences. But as the years wore on and my own experience and literary knowledge increased I began to see where his enlightened discourses to me were really just rattling off of impromptu hypotheses about stuff he hadn't even experienced or developed yet.
And as we became actual friends he let down his guard some and informed me that he was still unsure of his experiences, trying to get me to master OBE so we can experiment together so he can determine why his experiences are different than several things as is written in books by others. Written accounts make the experience seem a lot more definite, or even a lot more fluid, than we often like to admit to ourselves is really the case with our own experiences.
How many OBE authors and practitioners are just putting forth theories, or actually trying to convince themselves with their own writings, being less than honest about their knowledge, surety, and/or abilities, or even just outright lying? And because many people are not aware of the REAL alternative, as clarified in The Disappearance of the Universe, and detailed in A Course in Miracles, we cling to the idea of out-of-body travel or whatever our chosen path or process is, trying to keep our sense of worth, and special-ness, and understanding intact.
There is a better way..
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Your thoughts please??
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And has anyone been able to actually move something physically as Draja suggests? I've been told by people they have, but those sources have become questionable. Have you? I've had people say they got out with the intent for instance to move a sheet of paper, but when they 'got out' there were two sheets of paper instead of the one they put there.
The projector moved both sheets but when was supposedly back in the physical body the sheet of paper was still in its original position.
Please share your experiences with moving (or not moving) things while out of body!
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I've never moved anything. Actually, going through walls and the inability to interact with the 'Real Time Zone' is one way I know I'm OB'ing.
Quote from: CFTravelerI've never moved anything. Actually, going through walls and the inability to interact with the 'Real Time Zone' is one way I know I'm OB'ing.
Thank you for sharing CFTraveler!
I think this is a complicated area (qualifying what is an OBE and what is not) as sometimes I have all classic symptoms of OBE, including being able to move through objects and walls, yet I can turn light switches on etc (this usually produces light if I am projecting at night).
The most dramatic piece of personal proof I have experienced which suggests (to me) OBEs are more than a purely 'internal' state involved being seen by my sister while OBE.
To cut the experience short, I became lucid in a dream where I was driving a car outside my parents house. I then awoke to the vibrations and so went OBE. I'm not sure why, but I went into my sisters room, deciding I would try and 'pull her out of body'.
When I got into her room (through the door) it was dark so I switched the lights on. In my perception the lights did come on, and so I went over to my sister and tried to pull her out.
In my experience I did manage to pull her out, and I showed her how to float, so we floating up until we were half way through the ceiling, my head and torso in the attic (which looked lit up too).
Anyway, my sister had no knowledge of my projections, but this was too real to ignore. So I asked her (attempting not to lead) if she had any interesting dreams the previous night. She was acting a bit freaky and didn't say much. But later that day when I asked her again, she told me show woke up in the night to find a 'black smokey looking' man standing over her bed reaching out for her. When I asked her what the time was when this happened, it near matched up with the time I saw when I returned to my body.
To me, this experience matched all my known criteria of being OBE, yet, I was still able to interact with some objects (the light switch).
I've never moved anything while OBE and found it moved in baseline reality though.
Moving physical items while out of body is not the only method of verification. For instance, I have used my cat and mom as verification. You'll find lots of other stories here on the forum about a person's personal source of verification. For your author Draja, that is their personal verification.
Famous OBE researcher and author Robert Monroe received verification through retrievals. He would find someone 'trapped' between the physical and higher nonphysical levels (F23 I believe). While assisting them in their transition to a higher energy system, he would pick up information about their life such as name, address, place of death, hobbies, pets, etc. He would then research this information and it proved to be on dead on. The Monroe institute that Robert Monroe established actually had a department that would verify an individuals out of body retrieval.
I think Monroe's biggest verification came when he would meet his wife in out of body experiences while she was ill. Then right after she died in the hospital, the participants of the retrieval process at the Monroe Institute reported helping his wife make her journey to a higher energy level.(F27+). If that isn't verification I don't know what is!
And in regards to moving items, no I have never successfully interacted with the physical while in the RTZ. There's too many reality fluctuations and I usually get focused on greater tasks. once out You might be interested in psychokinesis (or whatever the proper term is) where people use their minds to move items around in the physical. Take a look http://www.psipog.net
COMPOSITE POSTS - SEE YOUR NAME IN BOLDMisterJingo MisterJingo MisterJingo Quote from: MisterJingoThe most dramatic piece of personal proof I have experienced which suggests (to me) OBEs are more than a purely 'internal' state involved being seen by my sister while OBE.
Remember that this doesn't rule out telepathy. Being that this is ALL a dream, you are right now seeing what is inside of your own mind, AS IF you are looking at something external from you. You projected your mind out, then created separate points of view so that you can seem to be in an external world with external objects. Thus it make sense that the contents of your own mind can interact. It's all the same thing.
Quote from: MisterJingo
To cut the experience short, I became lucid in a dream where I was driving a car outside my parents house. I then awoke to the vibrations and so went OBE. I'm not sure why, but I went into my sisters room, deciding I would try and 'pull her out of body'.
When I got into her room (through the door) it was dark so I switched the lights on. In my perception the lights did come on, and so I went over to my sister and tried to pull her out.
In my experience I did manage to pull her out, and I showed her how to float, so we floating up until we were half way through the ceiling, my head and torso in the attic (which looked lit up too).
Anyway, my sister had no knowledge of my projections, but this was too real to ignore. So I asked her (attempting not to lead) if she had any interesting dreams the previous night. She was acting a bit freaky and didn't say much. But later that day when I asked her again, she told me show woke up in the night to find a 'black smokey looking' man standing over her bed reaching out for her. When I asked her what the time was when this happened, it near matched up with the time I saw when I returned to my body.
To me, this experience matched all my known criteria of being OBE, yet, I was still able to interact with some objects (the light switch).
VERY COOL man. Thank you for sharing. That's definitely worth remembering. I have had confirmed meetings in dreams, where once I saw someone wearing a particular shirt he always wears, and another saw me in some unusual astral garb I created to myself, and remember we had a short conversation (garbled on my part). He introduced the meeting to me without me having to say anything. I link it to the connection inherent within the same mind between all its thoughts/seeming parts. Perhaps if I ever work enough to get good enough again we can play around with astral/obe meetings and such. It'd be fun.
WarpedReality WarpedReality WarpedReality Quote from: WarpedRealityMoving physical items while out of body is not the only method of verification. For instance, I have used my cat and mom as verification. You'll find lots of other stories here on the forum about a person's personal source of verification. For your author Draja, that is their personal verification.
What do you think about it being a form or amalgamation along with dreams of telepathy?
Quote from: WarpedReality
Famous OBE researcher and author Robert Monroe received verification through retrievals. He would find someone 'trapped' between the physical and higher nonphysical levels (F23 I believe). While assisting them in their transition to a higher energy system, he would pick up information about their life such as name, address, place of death, hobbies, pets, etc. He would then research this information and it proved to be on dead on. The Monroe institute that Robert Monroe established actually had a department that would verify an individuals out of body retrieval.
I think Monroe's biggest verification came when he would meet his wife in out of body experiences while she was ill. Then right after she died in the hospital, the participants of the retrieval process at the Monroe Institute reported helping his wife make her journey to a higher energy level.(F27+). If that isn't verification I don't know what is!
And in regards to moving items, no I have never successfully interacted with the physical while in the RTZ. There's too many reality fluctuations and I usually get focused on greater tasks. once out You might be interested in psychokinesis (or whatever the proper term is) where people use their minds to move items around in the physical. Take a look http://www.psipog.net
Thanks very much man for sharing.
They apparently do some interesting stuff. What are your thoughts that the afterlife is simply another form of the same grand overall dream, which needs to be forgiven in order to be woken up from?
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Two very great posts. I appreciate it. You both have expanded my information, and I appreciate it, and I hope I've helped you also.
Any further thoughts from you both on my questions, or on anything else.
P.S. Remember that my main point is that this is ALL a dream. I used to promote OBE like crazy, so want to inform my old haunts of my new findings. You can check some quotes out here:
www.therealalternative.info
Peace.
Quote from: obe1990
Remember that this doesn't rule out telepathy. Being that this is ALL a dream, you are right now seeing what is inside of your own mind, AS IF you are looking at something external from you. You projected your mind out, then created separate points of view so that you can seem to be in an external world with external objects. Thus it make sense that the contents of your own mind can interact. It's all the same thing.
I agree that it doesn't rule out other possible explanations. But it has made me open to the possibility of OBEs being more than my imaginings alone (even a shared dream would be pretty significant if both parties remembered the actions without pre-intention or leading explanations after the event i.e. it's very easy to change our memories to what we wanted to happen).
My view of OBE is we don't actually leave the body (imo such a thing is impossible as we are not actually inside a body). This is why I am more closely aligned to the phasing view of OBEs e.g. our perception of body and 'external' reality is generated and experienced internally (from some stimulus source) and we can only ever know and operate within this internal representation. So even when we perceive ourselves to be 'out of body' we are still inside an 'internally' generated representation. It's just the stimulus which changes, not our location.
Quote from: obe1990
VERY COOL man. Thank you for sharing. That's definitely worth remembering. I have had confirmed meetings in dreams, where once I saw someone wearing a particular shirt he always wears, and another saw me in some unusual astral garb I created to myself, and remember we had a short conversation (garbled on my part). He introduced the meeting to me without me having to say anything. I link it to the connection inherent within the same mind between all its thoughts/seeming parts. Perhaps if I ever work enough to get good enough again we can play around with astral/obe meetings and such. It'd be fun.
Yeah, I think astral meetings (with precautions taken so the scenario can not be created by a criteria set up beforehand – and 'fleshed out' in conversation afterwards) are a pretty powerful way of personal verification. It might not prove anything objectively – but it at least moves the OBE phenomenon out of a purely created state into something 'more'.
My personal mean for verification was to set some card on a piece of furniture face up, which card I would not know -- but check while OBEing.
Often I cannot get to the card.
If I do, humorously enough, I pick the card up (while OBEing) to look at it. It's in my hand and I look at it (while the actual card is still on the piece of furniture) and images of all cards in the deck arrange themselves in a mosaique, or I just can't see anything. So, in other words, it's like a dream, and probably is.
I am not helpful, and I apologize.
More helpful information :
- I am 34.
- Like MisterJingo, I have (maybe) done astral traveling and have had OBE since I was a child. ALSO I have suffered greatly from sleep paralysis. I still do from time to time. With hallucinations while being in sleep paralysis, the usual (dark being that I am scared of, that wants to inject something in the back of my neck, that is exerting pressure on my back -- or/and I am hearing some - non-existent - radio channels... people chatting, music, that simply cannot be heard in my room.)
- I am female.
I am sorry I could not be more helpful.
I was a poster here a long time ago. I wanted to come back to find out what people were experiencing in the alleged astral now - to see if we are having common experiences.
I read that trying to look at the card was not an effective way to do verification because of the potential fluctuations -- asking to know what the card is and waiting for information to be imprinted in your memory seems to be the way to go, as it removes any left-brain interference when you try to read the card.
The big problem with cards is that they're much like trying to read in the astral. If you're left brained, you'll try to make out the characters one by one, then create words, then arrange them into sentences so it all makes sense, but when you go to read the sentence again, none of it makes sense, and every word seems different! The trick is to tap into "universal knowledge" and receive information, as if the piece of paper, or card, or whatever medium you are reading from, was sending you a telepathic message. You will get much more than what you asked for in some instances, as well!
But it's true that sometimes, people do not fully project and just lucid dream -- this has been the case many times for me. If you've read Monroe's books, in the second book he mentions that he observed the separation process more closely since the first book, and the separation occurs in two steps: First, you "unhook" from the physical and go into the "Second body" and then you project into a third vehicle of sorts.
This is the same as what Robert Bruce says ; you shift your consciousness into the etheric/energy body, which is firmly attached to the physical, and then project an energy double out of that body.
It seems that a lot of people think that sleep paralysis is a biological phenomenon where certain chemicals block your muscles to not only slow down your breathing and heart rate, but also to prevent you from moving while sleeping... I personally believe that there is more to it -- I will go as far as to say that sleep paralysis is when your consciousness is seated in the etheric body.
What you need to do is recognize the difference between a full fledged out of body experience and an "etheric body experience" ; when you are in the etheric body, you cannot move away from your physical location unless you send out an energy double. The natural response to being stuck is to create a dream situation in which you are being sat on or attacked by something that prevents you from moving -- if you do not wake up immediately and if you "defeat your personal demon," you will soon be free to move around, but you will not actually be roaming the Real Time Zone. You will be in your dream world where things might seem like they are like in real life, but as soon as you go into unknown territory, everything becomes different from reality.
I've read about people who said that all it takes for them to project while in a lucid dream is to "feel for their body" and then ask their higher self to project them out.
When reading books, you will have to choose whether to be skeptical or whether to blindly believe everything that is said. It is important to remain objective yourself -- the more you read, the more you learn about others' subjective experiences. For each one of us, there is different symbolism, different beliefs, different experiences. A lot of people tend to experience "trials" -- they are put into dream situations where they are taught a lesson. In the early stages of your development and personal experiences with astral projection, those trials will be very common, and as you learn from them, they will slowly become less and less frequent.
Authors like Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce, Robert Peterson, have documented many of their experiences, they have left the body thousands of times. They seem to be unanimous on one thing: reality fluctuations gradually stop happening as you become more experienced.
It's indeed a good concern to wonder how much is true, how much is objective... Remember that each of us have the power to verify what is said ; all we need to do is project and see for ourselves!
As for moving objects... You will probably come to learn that there is not a single question starting with "Is it possible to..." that doesn't have "yes" as the answer. Right now you could point your finger at something and have it blow up right in front of you.
Did you try it? Did it work? Probably not... Our inability to do whatever we want is very analogous to phobias... You just can't tell yourself that you're not afraid anymore. In just the same way, you just can't tell yourself that you now have superpowers... You need to go through rigorous training, psychological training. We all have this very special power, we can manipulate anything we want, create matter from nothing, shoot energy beams from our hands like in japanese manga... It takes a lot more than knowing, and the simple intention to learn how to master these innate skills is what will put your personal journey in motion.
If your intentions are clearly defined, I wouldn't be surprised if you met an out of body teacher of some kind -- let your desire for higher knowledge guide you. Things will not be handed to you, and very often you will find that it is not the end result, but the journey itself that is the most valuable.
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As for moving objects... You will probably come to learn that there is not a single question starting with "Is it possible to..." that doesn't have "yes" as the answer. Right now you could point your finger at something and have it blow up right in front of you.
Did you try it? Did it work? Probably not... Our inability to do whatever we want is very analogous to phobias... You just can't tell yourself that you're not afraid anymore. In just the same way, you just can't tell yourself that you now have superpowers... You need to go through rigorous training, psychological training.
Someone here (from something I have read in another thread yesterday) said that if this was true (something along what you're saying in the quote above) then babies, who have no belief systems, who have not set limits for themselves (just repeating the argument here) might interact with their environments in a mind over matter way, which is not what we're seeing.
I am singling this out, and I apologize for that. Everything you're telling me is very, very useful...
This is an excellent thread.
In any of my own OBEs I have never been able to interact directly with physical objects.
I do know of someone who was able to indirectly affect his computer while he was out. He was in etheric projection, and he decided he would put his hand through his computer case. When he later went to check his computer, he found that his hard drive was corrupted, files missing and he had to format the entire drive and start over. It was as if someone had passed a magnet over the hard drive.
I don't know if hard drives are magnetically 'shielded' or not, but even they were, could he have passed his arm right through the shield? I realize this could be coincidence, but also could mean that some sort of electromagnetic field was created by his etheric body. If this was not merely coincidence, then maybe people can interact with the physical (electronics) while in an OBE, at least to some degree.
Possibly, yes, Synergy.
When I OBE, I can feel the walls I am going through.
Maybe the walls can feel me too.
Maybe electronic equipment can be affected.
(Then again, in my experiences, I might have "created" this reality of walls, that resistance of matter, because I was expecting it.)
Thank you for sharing, and I am sorry I could not be more useful.
Just to be argumentative: It's possible that babies are so busy getting accustomed to their new surroundings (the material world of perception) that they don't even realize they can't fly, and by the time their sensory equipment is accustomed to their new existence, they already forgot they can. :peace:
I think saying that we are born without limitations would be a mistake -- in any given text that talks about reincarnation, you'll notice that you are placing your consciousness (or part of it) into a living organism, and make a conscious wish not to recall anything outside of the physical reality.
Before there can be conscious intention of using your powers, you will need higher knowledge (knowledge of more than just the physical aspect of the world around us) -- this is not something a baby can grasp easily.
Young children do however have extra sensory perception. I remember my sister used to still pet an invisible cat weeks after it was run over by a car -- we never actually told her the cat was dead. I talked to her about it recently and she said the cat -was- there... I don't want to rule out muddy memories or invisible friend theories, but this is the kind of stuff that illustrates the "second loss" we experience a few years after birth.
First, we lose our knowledge at birth, and slowly as we grow up, we lose our extra sensory perception (and perception is all we have at first).
Seeing dead cats and people who are not actually there in their bodies is one thing ; mind over matter is another.
I am not sure that mind over matter (matter outside of myself) is actually easy and can ever be easy - for anyone - even if you have "faith" that you can move objects, that you are absolutely convinced.
But it's just a belief I have of course. I don't spend that much time trying to move objects at distance.
When I dream I do these things : change the aspect of things, fly, etc. Unconciously it seems that I know that I can levitate. I am so much convinced in my dreams that I can that I want to open schools to teach people how to do levitate and "fly". I just don't understand why everyone is not doing it like me. And in my dreams, I have been doing it for a very long time.
But when I wake up and try, I can't.
Even the PEAR experiment's maths has been debunked. There is not much experience out there (published) that show that people can affect objects with their thoughts. I "know" they can, or rather I believe that they can, but there is not much evidence out there.
as far as moving objects......
sure its possible, anything is possible... but why would you want to?
does moving sheets of paper further your great work?
if you spent the next 20 years teaching yourself to move a sheet of paper out of body, or with your mind, im sure you would achive it...
personally, id rather learn something useful, like medicine, or write a book, or create beautiful music...
-hd