on meditation

[Tom]

Meditation is not just about silencing the internal dialogue. That is just the negative side of it. The positive side must be more important. You are concentrating on something and over time more of your attention and mental resources and energy all go toward the object until you experience a blending with the object. The internal dialogue is a form of mental resources which are not being directed toward the object. If you have to, you can grab those resources by force. This is not the best approach because the meditator is fighting the meditator. It is more tiring and it can cover up the more subtle aspects of the meditation experience.

[fredhedd]

part of me feels that fighting the internal dialouge and trying to grab those resources by force may not be the best thing.  it certainly seems hard enough  at times to merit it being wrong. forcefully can have a few different meanings itself.  but it seems the best way to make progress, for me at least.  there are a limitless amount of meditation practices.  some of them require a good deal of attention and mental clarity.  i believe the progress in all of them to be proportional to your ability to concentrate.  if concentration is learned first it can be directed at all of the other practices and progress will be great.  there was  a good deal of time spent meditating where i was in a kind of dazed, dreamlike state.  even though my intent when i sat down was to be aware of my thoughts, i couldn't help being so lost in them that i was completely unaware.  when i would come out of my meditation it was like i just woke up from a dream and the memories of what just happened were not there or very hazy.  this made me feel the only way for me to make progress w/ any meditation was to be able to gain a good level of mental clarity.  even when using  a mantra to try and gain some calm in my thoughts, i couldn't help but day dream.  it's easier now to see why learning this skill properly is valued so much as being a firm base for proper meditation.

[Tom]

It is the flow of energy you are working with in meditation. The mind rides on the currents of energy. When you stop the vehicle (the energy currents) you stop the passenger (the mind). Can you imagine going to the drive-through at McDonalds, paying for your food, and receiving it all without coming to a full stop? There are two alternating stages, investigation and concentration. You find your object through investigation. A visualized object makes this easy, but it can also be a concept or feeling which is reduced to an emotion or short phrase. After the object is identified and located the mind is merged with it. Concentration is bringing the energy currents to the object where the energy mixes with it. The mind has no choice but to follow along. When the object seems to fade, as it can from time to time, it is necessary to switch to the investigation phase. The object is found and located again until it is clear and concentration can begin again. This approach, alternating concentration with investigation, can help maintain alertness.

[Fat_Turkey]

Thanks for that, Tom. That'll really help my next meditation practices.

Remember fredhedd that meditation isn't all about clearing the internal dialogue. I find that just to be a by-product of focusing on one thing for a long amount of time because all the energy used in creating the "useless"(and I use the term loosely) babble known as the internal dialogue are brought towards that which you are focusing on. I find it easier not to forceably silence the dialogue but to watch the thoughts float away past me and disappear. I've sort of programmed myself to say "Byyeeeee....." really slowly and even see that thought disappear with the rest. It's gaining me steadier and steadier progress with a clear mind.

Later
-FT

[Leviiathan]

Fredhedd:

Before attempting to silence this inner dialogue, please learn to paraphrase your outter dialogue . . . in paragraphs.

Thank you.

[fredhedd]

hey fat turkey.  i know that meditation isn't just about silencing the internal monologue.  i've put my time in  it was just one aspect that i was talking about here.  

leviathan, i very much like to argue.  it's brain candy for me.  know that i won't be offended or get mad at anything you say and that all criticism is welcome.  i don't want this to be like most other arguments on forums where everyone is getting bent out of shape and annoying other members w/ their childish remarks.  
i write how i talk.   when i read it back to myself it makes sense to me.  i don't want to have to worry about rules when i  express myself.  if you dislike how i write you don't have to read it, kindly.  it's nice to see that the only reason you responded to the thread was to criticise something.  that says a lot. i don't believe you can claim that it was said in a nice manner either because even though i'm obviously not as smart as you , i could have come up w/ something better put than that.  also i'm wondering if you would really recommend me dropping all of my meditation practices and pursuing more grammerly correct writing skills.  i guess that would kinda make sense to me.  maybe if i were five years younger and as smart as you it would make more sense.  grammer isn't really something that i complain about but since you like everything to be correct it would be nice to see  the words 'outer' and 'worship' properly spelled.

also i just notice that your signature also criticises all of western religion, not to mention that you do so and don't suggest or offer anything else.  do you have any problems w/ eastern religion?  i'd like to know which one you think i should follow.  i think bold and stupid are clearly defined sometimes.

i read your bio.  it's really awesome that you put down as one of your online activities 'discussing intelligent topics'. man, come off it. who are you trying to impress?  if you are looking for a girlfriend i'll ask my sister to give you a call.

my topic was started to at least try and help others.  your reply was poop.

i don't think there is enough tough friendly arguing going on on this forum.  i think i'll start a 'lets argue' topic in the chat forum.

ok, your turn.

[Fat_Turkey]

Wow fredhedd impressing comeback! Haha I bet leviathin feels like a moron now - anyways that was kinda harsh but still it ticks me off too when people just reply to complain about something.

Kudos to that

-FT

[Pandemonium]

Indeed. This place is here to talk about astral projection, and not about grammar, or spelling, so replies that discuss gramatical accuracy or the lack of it don't belong here. I'm sure Leviathan will remember that after your great reply, Fredhedd.
I also agree with your opinion on importance of expectation. I don't have so much experience in meditation yet, but I have  also discovered that what you expect has a powerfull impact on astral projection practice. Desire, belief and expectation are indeed powerfull factors in all areas of life.

Pan

[fredhedd]

this actually applies to more than just meditation but that is how the thought came up.  for those of you who have been or will be meditating it may be helpful to keep in mind that even though most texts you will find on silencing the inner monologue read that it is a very hard thing to do and will take some time, that it is very possible that you can do it right away and w/ little effort.  this may not be the case for most people but some of you will be able to do this w/out a problem while it will take others, like me, a year or more of hard time spent to accomplish it.  reading up on things like this and astral projection you may find many uneccessary steps that can make progress slower.  while these steps will help many of us, it's important to remember that we are able to do all of these things right now and that we are just not familiar w/ any of it yet.  the term 'just do it' seems very cheap in a way because we are always used to having detailed instructions on how to do anything.   genuinely knowing that you can 'just do it' may be the best shortcut you could ever take and firmly believing it the entire time you are practicing may help in squashing any doubt that would normally arise.  what you expect plays a big role on what will happen.  most people sit down to meditate or ap and expect zero to little progress during that session.  from experience i can tell you how much impact genuinely expecting your goal to be met right then will have.  easier said than done is not getting discouraged when things don't work out.  don't.   have fun.