MRI results of OBE'ers

[Synergy]

I have had a recent brain MRI and for all intents and purposes it was normal but with a few interesting findings...   They found two what they call UBO's (unidentified bright objects) in one specific type of scan, the T2 weighted images.  In and of itself these mean nothing and as they put it 'are of doubtful clinical signifigance'  however I asked for a copy of the MRI results sheet, and took it home.  The UBO's were described as follows:  "there were two focal areas of high T2 signal, one in the right basal ganglia, and one in the subcortical white matter of the left parietal region"   When I got home and looked deeper, I found that the parietal lobe is responsible for 'special awareness'  and parts of the the basal ganglia have something to do with sleep and the 'arousal system'.  There is already a theorized correlation between the temporoparietal junction and OBEs, so I was wondering if anyone else who has OBEs, also had an MRI at some point and remembers  similar findings?  Or maybe you know someone who has OBEs and also has had an MRI. 

Maybe we can start compiling our own little data base of these things to try and find some correlation?? 

I am not trying to disprove OBEs... as I believe that there is both a physical component (in order to get out of a vehicle you need to open the door right?)  and a nonphysical component, when the consciousness leaves.  What I am hoping is that if we can find the door... maybe we can find an easy way for everyone to experience OBEs. 

(the MRI was not for anything serious... btw)

[Old Dood]

That is Effin cool! 

Good thinkin' by keeping your records and reseaching them.

[Awakened_Mind]

Have you got a link or reference for that?

-AM

[Synergy]

Have you got a link or reference for that?

-AM

For my own MRI?  I suppose I could scan it... but there is other personal info on there that I don't really want to share.... I quoted exactly what they had written there for findings.  Ad for the already existent correlation between the temporoparietal junction and OBEs...  here is a link:
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/3/550

[Universal1ness]

Shame the author of that article describes OBE's as 'pathological'.

[Synergy]

Shame the author of that article describes OBE's as 'pathological'.

Yes I know... I dont believe they are pathological... I was just quoting that article to show the possible link to that part of the brain.  However, as I said before, I do think there is a physical component, to open the door so to speak....  something physical has to happen first, and maybe we can help find out what.

[Awakened_Mind]

Most definately. That still raises the problem of how these two levels interact.

OBE's are always going to be hard to measure with a physical instrument. The pulse may slow and the brain may light up but this really doesn't have much convincing power to a skeptic. When a person stares at an object, then closes his/her eyes and imagines that same object, the same areas of the brain light up. It can still be argued that OBE's are hallucinations or just dreams from non-believers, even with MRI's.

Are you a dualist Synergy?

-AM

[Synergy]

Are you a dualist Synergy?

-AM

In the sense that I believe the spirit and body are spearate... yes.  But some dualistic views like God's creation being separate from him and not part of him... I would say no in that sense because my beliefs fall along the Rosicrucian path.  I believe that everything exists as part of the 'one' including us and that everything is connected.  I also try to marry science, philosophy and religion together to find the answers as I believe all are necessary.  Each holds a piece of the puzzle. 

[kiwibonga]

What happened during the MRI by the way? Doesn't seem that you had an OBE, but did you fall asleep or meditate or do anything in particular?

[Synergy]

What happened during the MRI by the way? Doesn't seem that you had an OBE, but did you fall asleep or meditate or do anything in particular?

I HAD planned on trying to OBE...  since I was inside a rather strong electromagnet for awhile... however, they strap your forehead down, and tape your chin down so you cant move at all, the head thingy digging into your shoulders, a cage thingy over your face, really uincomfortable headphones on with a crappy radio station (lol) which is meant to block out the noise of the mri, but it doesn't.  The MRI sounds like REALLY loud banging over and over.  So no... I did not OBE.  lol

[Old Dood]

Yes...they are LOUD!  All those magnets slamming together I suppose.

I had one MRI and I had to come back because I could not take the 'tunnel' they lay you in.
It drove me batty.  So I came back later with heavy drugs to knock me down.

The next MRI I will have will HAVE to be a 'Open' one. They are the newer design.  Then I want to try to OBE but with all that noise I doubt it...

[Awakened_Mind]

It would definately take a high degree of concentration to exit during an MRI. I'd say you'd be looking for someone a lot more experienced in meditative practice, able to overcome the distraction.

-AM

[catmeow]

I've had several MRI's - three of my knee and one recently of my brain.  In each case, the noise made by the MRI machine sent me into a hypnogogic state in which sounds disappeared and were replaced by mild hallucinations.  I had to fight to stay awake, because as we fall aleep we tend to "twitch" and this would ruin the MRI.

But I have to say MRI's are the best for inducing hypnogogia (the noise they make is the culprit not the magnetic field)

The brain scan showed a couple of these small white spots.  The neurologist said that these were normal and I think one white spot is permitted for every 10 years of age or something like that.  But don't quote me. They didn't seem to be significant.

btw Synergy - I hope your MRI results were OK.

With the use of evoked potential mapping, we show the selective activation of the temporoparietal junction (TPJ) at 330-400 ms after stimulus onset when healthy volunteers imagined themselves in the position and visual perspective that generally are reported by people experiencing spontaneous OBEs

On the subject of Olaf Blanke - the guy is beginning to get on my nerves.  The quote above completely misrepresents the results of the Evoked Potential Study Blanke conducted.  The quote makes it sound like they experienced the sensation of leaving the body.  They did not.  All that happened was that their response times for a "mental own body transformation" task were impaired.  Ie they found it more difficult to tell left from right, when their brain was zapped.

Blanke is desperate to prove that OBE's are all in the mind.  His research has been discussed quite a lot on this board and I have already critiqued him a few times, mainly in this thread:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_obe_discussions/outofbody_experience_clues_may_hide_in_mind-t22481.0.html

[Synergy]

catmeow... my MRI was fine... I was also told that the white spots were quote normal.  What I am more interested in, is if there is a possible correlation between OBE experiencers and WHERE these 'normal' white spots are. 

My neurologist friend said these white spots can be anything causing that area to be more dense and hence show on the MRI.  Anything from a childhood banged head, to previous migraines, etc can cause them.  SOmetimes they can appear for no reason. 

I dont believe OBEs are in the head... in fact I am pretty sure what I have experienced are NOT in my head!  But I do believe there is a physical function that needs to happen to cause the OBE.  As I have said before... you need to open the car door to get out... the physical body is just another vehicle.  I want to find the door. 

We know that meditation and phasing work to indice OBEs, and also visualization.  These act on the brain in various ways... they change the brainwvae patterns, going from predominantly bets waves while awake and altert, immediately to alpha when we close our eyes, and then deeper to theta states (trance like or hypnosis, hypnagogic) and then to delta which is deep sleep and not aware.  Also, chemical changes occur within the brain - releasing neurotransmitters and hormones to induce these states... including triptophan, melatonin etc.  The pineal gland is a key in the sleep / wake cycle and trance states.  The brain does all these things simply by our focusing on them.  It would be awesome if we could find the parts of the brain needed and either chemically or electrically stimulate them to induce the real thing. 

Where Olaf Blanke's studies err is in that the subjects were 'imagining' an OBE, and to me, I would think that whatever they observed would be memory or imagination related and not actual OBE related.  The more recent VR experiments and others involving electrodes would all fall under the same error... Different parts of the brain activate with different tasks.... remembering or imagining something is not the same as doing it, and I would htink it would show as such in tests. 

At this point, to say that white spots on MRIs indicate anything is getting way ahead of ourselves, but we get 50 people who have had MRIs and also OBE... and all of them have the same white spot at the same position in the brain.... it's something to look at anyway    Mine were at the right basal ganglia, and the subcortical white matter of the left parietal region.   DO you know where yours were? Could you find out?

[catmeow]

Where Olaf Blanke's studies err is in that the subjects were 'imagining' an OBE, and to me, I would think that whatever they observed would be memory or imagination related and not actual OBE related.  The more recent VR experiments and others involving electrodes would all fall under the same error... Different parts of the brain activate with different tasks.... remembering or imagining something is not the same as doing it, and I would htink it would show as such in tests. 

I'm aware of his recent VR studies too.  I Absolutely 100% agree with you.

Assuming there is a mind-body distinction how is this mind-body interaction mediated?  In other words how does "mind" interact with "matter".  Apparently this occurs via the brain.  So yes presumably it may be possible to interfere with this mind-body mediation and cause the mind to go OBE.

I would have to look through my MRI's and try to figure out where the white spots are, they were not mentioned in the radiologist's report.  He just said "normal".  At some time I could do this, but I hate looking at my MRI's and XRays - this always scares me in case I spot something which "I" think looks abnormal!

I'll see what I can do, but don't hold your breath!

Good post Synergy.