I thought I share a little bit of my experience with OOBE. It's been about 10 years since I've been practicing it and I've learnt a lot during that time. So here's what I've learnt based on my experience.
Usually people who are only starting have difficulties with having their very first Astral experience because they fail to understand the necessary condition which needs to be fulfilled no matter what technique is being used. What I'm talking about is sleep paralysis; it's not emphasized enough that it is the Astral Traveler's "must have." The techniques you might have read about elsewhere can be effective only AFTER you have achieved a conscious sleep paralysis. Let me make it clear: being simply relaxed is not enough! Sleep paralysis is when you can't to move the parts of your body, even if you try. If you get to sleep paralysis, you have some good chances to turn it to an out of the body experience. If you don't, you shouldn't bother trying any techniques, because they won't work. Out of the body experience consists in separating your consciousness from the physical body, and it can only be accomplished when your body is not awake. I know of a variety of opinions on this. Some "gurus" argue that sleep paralysis has no importance in masteric OOBE. I even found a book in which the author says that one can achieve an out of the body experience when driving a vehicle. However, there is a big difference between personal experience and information that cannot be verified. I decided to choose not to believe a statement that cannot be replicated by my own efforts. thus, I think that it is absolutely necessary to have sleep paralysis to achieve an out of the body experience.
Before we get to OOBE, I'm going to talk a little bit about entering sleep paralysis. That's way harder thing than having an OOBE itself. First of all, it is very unlikely to end up having a conscious sleep paralysis at night, when you go to sleep. Just to make it clear, as we fall asleep, we do enter the sleep paralysis state, but normally our mind falls asleep before it happens. The easiest method to achieve sleep paralysis is get out of bed very early in the morning and remain awake for a while, and then return to sleep. I found that it is most effective to combine 4 h of sleep and one hour of being awake. When awaken, you should not remain in bed. Try to keep your mind busy; it's good to read a newspaper or watch tv. Even better idea would be to read your Astral Projection journal (given you have one), or read an article about OOBE (to communicate with the subconscious mind). When you return to bed, try to fall asleep as you normally do. It will take some time to start feeling sleepy again. If you did everything as described, you shoud have about 85% chance of staying aware of the whole process when your body falls into a sleep paralysis. It might take from fifteen minutes to one h; make sure you are patient and try to remain still. When you notice loud noises inside of your head and vibrations in your your body, it means that you probably are in a sleep paralysis. This is the moment you should try one of OOBE methods.
Probably you have heard many techniques so far. Most of them would work when used in sleep paralysis. The method that I believe is the best is to imagine any movement of your body. Sometimes I imagine myself running very fast. This makes me feel this bizarre pressure inside of my body, which makes the vibrations stronger and ultimately results in Astral Projection. You should try many different techniques yourself to discover what method works better for you. In fact, any visualization of the physical movement will work. Just make sure youJust remember to stay calm and have fun with this wonderful experience.
You will succeed!
Very good information here. I agree with it 100%.
Quote from: todd421757 on April 17, 2012, 12:51:12
Very good information here. I agree with it 100%.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
Hi,
Theres so much being pushed at us that the prime objective is being lost. The vibrations are not necessary at all. The same for sleep paralysis.
As I and others have never or maybe a couple of times had either of these in our life while being able to project, the requirement of them is in question. I for one have been projecting for nearly 50 years and have no recollection of sleep para in all this time. 4 occasions of vibrations ever and 3 of these in 1 week.
However sleep paralysis is a very useful tool. It makes the whole scenario of getting out so much easier as you are basically already out. Your post says this.
The older you are the less chance there is of SP, above 50 its almost unheard of. So Ive no chance of trying this lol.
We all have our best way to exit and each is somewhat different. The goal is getting out repeatedly.
You have a good suggestion above and anyone trying it can change it to suit themselves, it may work faster this way.
Safe travels.
Hi agree with Szaxx - SP and Vibrations are not required at all and should not be a focus.
The thing is, when beginning to project its easier to wrap your head around the whole thing if you set attainable goals such as achieving SP or vibes, as if you are hitting milestones on the path to projection when you get them - I know I certainly started this way. However the fact is (for me at least) that the act of projecting is the whole sum and while setting markers such as SP and vibes may help you ease your mind into it, I dont think its necessarily the best way to actually achieve a projection. Setting these markers is in my opinion over complicating matters. Its like riding a bike or driving a car. It may help in the beginning to set up markers to prime your mind (Mirror, signal Maneuver etc) but once you learn to drive, you just...DRIVE! Projection (again, in my opinion) is the same. Setting these markers does help prime the mind but I dont think it helps necessarily with projecting. In my case, whenever I focussed on these markers (SP or vibes specifically) I used to note them as such and get over excited to have hit a MARKER that the projection failed. When I learned to focus ONLY on projection, in essence ignoring anything up until that point, is when I succeeded. Sure, vibes happened initially but by not putting them up there as a milestone, it enabled me to remain focussed on the real goal of projection.
But hey, if SP and Vibrations are how you project then great, its just not how it works for me.
I better get myself "Dormeo memory" or something because I've noticed quite high correlation between sleep paralysis and the level of comfortableness of you mattress (on whatever you're lying on). Very useful post, agree 100 percent. Thanks for sharing
IMPORTANT
I just want to jump in with a semantics note, at the very least to help dispel any confusions that may occur as a result of this thread, especially if this is one of your first threads.
What was just said is spot on. People fail to realize the importance of focusing on getting a good mind awake/body asleep' /sleep paralysis/ F10 going. All the same thing. Unfortunately, sleep paralysis is a more general/vague words for the specific event that is being described.
Sleep paralysis is traditionally when you come OR out come out of a dream state and is when you can't move your body. The idea is paralysis; and has a historical air of panic associated with it. The Japanese have a word for this called, Kanishibari, which loosely translates into "wrapped in chains." Ancient paintings depict this with demons holding down people in bed. Really I have had it happen twice, it's freaky. You can't move even through you want to. You scream but nothing comes out. You have to wiggle you big toes to get out of it. Back in the day there were also fears of being buried alive by friends if you got caught in this state for too long and people thought you were dead. How much would that suck, right?
A good F10 feels like something that would be called sleep paralysis, but is more aptly termed "mind awake/body asleep" and is what Monroe was talking.
What is described here is more of a strong F10 state, you are completely able to move your body if you really wanted to, but it would set you back to square one. You see how sleep paralysis can describe coming in or out, whereas F10 describes just going in. In this lays the confusion.
So to clarify, you can still fully move your body if you want in what embrace is talking about.
All the information here is spot on correct, just please be aware of this linguistic hurdle. Talking about this intangible stuff without an agreed upon set of words is a challenge for the community as a whole. Use what words as you will, but please be aware that many descriptions describe many different idiosyncrasies of astral phenomenon. Expansion of your vocabulary is necessary.
Happy travels.
Cheers,
Contenteo
Thank you for your feedback, everybody :) As I pointed out earlier, I've written my post being based on my own experiences
only. Of course, being an OOBE-maniac, I'm familiar with a number of different contradicting theories and views. It's interesting to read that sleep paralysis is not how some of you do it.
QuoteSo to clarify, you can still fully move your body if you want in what embrace is talking about.
I realize that sleep paralysis has some negative connotations, but actually I did mean exactly that: when I'm about to have an OOBE, I wouldn't be able to move my body even if I try hard. It takes a while to get out of sleep paralysis if this is my goal. Can even take 10 minutes before I can move a finger. So yeah - that was exactly my point.
As for vibrations, I don't see them as a necessary part of the whole process.
In any case, thank you for listening!
I find it intriguing that after 10 years you still sense the "vibrations" in your experiences. From all that I've read on this forum, people tend to lose or simply aren't aware of those sensations after a short-while. This goes for me as well. As for the negative connotations that tend to be linked with sleep paralysis, the first few numbers of sleep paralysis experiences that I've had were pretty scary. However, there was one time when I awoke in sleep paralysis, and everything within my room was flowing with what appeared to be extremely bright & flowing bluish energy. I can see energy naturally, but I have to focus in and it's somewhat dim, so I was amazed by the sight that I was seeing whilst completely absent of fear.
A technique that I used to use and If you find it hard to sense your energy body I recommend you give it a try. Before you lay down spin on your axis get your self nice and disoriented then immediately lay down. This will confuse your equilibrium and generate vertigo.
Hi embrace. Very interesting post. I wonder, do you tend to have RTZ projections after entering sleep paralysis, or are they more like APs (in the astral realms)? I'm simply wondering if there is a correlation between SP and RTZ projections?
Quote from: schockstuhh on April 20, 2012, 01:42:55
I find it intriguing that after 10 years you still sense the "vibrations" in your experiences. From all that I've read on this forum, people tend to lose or simply aren't aware of those sensations after a short-while.
I am not surprised Embrace still feels vibrations after 10 years. I am still experiencing them since 2000. In fact, they have gotten a lot stronger each year. I wear a mouth guard to bed, as they sometimes are very intense and you can hear my teeth clattering. This usually only happens when I am experiencing a F10 (mind awake body asleep) state and not a full-blown sleep paralysis.
When I get a full-blown sleep paralysis like Embrace is talking about, the vibrations are much less intense. The vibrations then feel like a slight shiver.
Having a full-blown sleep paralysis makes OBE's so much easier to obtain than a simple F10 (mind awake body asleep state).
Heres how I do it: Lay on your back in bed or in a recliner and do your OBE technique. While doing your OBE technique, touch your thumb and first finger together at the pads and have both hands resting by your sides. Do this with both hands while you are laying on your back. When sleep paralysis is first coming on you will not feel your fingers touching anymore. They actually are still touching, but you will not feel it. Keep deepening the process from there.
Lots of people project without ever experiencing sleep paralysis - that much should be obvious from the experiences people share. Telling people not to bother attempting an exit if they haven't reached sleep paralysis (first post) can really discourage them - even though they may not be 'hardwired' to experience sleep paralysis in the first place - and lead to missed experiences. People can stay in bed forever thinking there's no way (been there, done that :) ) even when they could've had an OBE if they'd just played their cards right.
I just see it as another symptom that may or may not happen. Never had it myself and have had all my OBEs without it. We can't really generalize based on our own experiences ("X must be a requirement because I need X to happen to get a result") to predict what people will experience because we're all so different - if I were to generalise mine then people should expect some serious eye twitches, a strong heartbeat and a short blackout between the practice and the OBE itself... But of course it won't happen that way with everyone. But I do agree that sleep paralysis (as with most symptoms, really) is a good one to at least be aware of - I imagine that can be terrifying if people aren't prepared that it might happen...
Personal experience in this case only really verifies how things tend to work for that individual. I'd say just ignore, or at most passively acknowledge, whatever symptoms happen, to avoid getting distracted...
However, I'm curious - how do people know they're in sleep paralysis when they're trying to project? (I.e. when they're continuing with the practice and not when they happen to notice it from trying to move and being unable to. And that it's sleep paralysis, not just the body being asleep but wakeable.) Do they move to check if they can? Doesn't that risk ending the practice? Wakes me up in no time at all. Then I can try again, but still, like someone said, it brings me back to square one. Thanks Contenteo for your post, very clear. I've had many many definite 'body asleep' experiences (can move if I want), but no paralysis (can't move). Just trying to understand something I've never experienced... I don't really get how this works as part of an astral projection practice...
Quote from: bluelily on April 20, 2012, 14:15:24
and a short blackout between the practice and the OBE itself...
When you get the full-blown sleep paralysis, this blackout can sometimes be avoided. The blackout (based upon my experiences) always leads to less clarity in the actual OBE.
The full-blown sleep paralysis can sometimes lead to no blackout and no loss of consciousness. You feel the entire separation process in all its glory. This is the only true classic OBE. Anytime you get the blackout, there is a good chance dream images can intermingle with the actual OBE. This is why when someone just gets to the F10 state only, they have OBE's that have dreamlike qualities and discrepancies to them.
There is also a short blackout on the return to the body. I am trying to find new ways to avoid this to prevent the loss of memory that sometimes occurs with OBE's.
It is hard to avoid both blackouts, but it is possible to avoid it sometimes. This is one of my goals.
Sylvan Muldoon also talks about this blackout. He calls OBE's without the blackout, "Superconscious projections". He states conscious projections are rare.
QuoteWe can't really generalize based on our own experiences
Thank you for all your replies, it's very interesting to read what you think. I came to the conclusion that there's so much controversial and contradictory information on OOBE on the internet that there's simply no way to believe all of them. I have read some ridiculous stuff, so I've decided that I will develop
my understanding basing on
my experience.
Just to clarify - I'm not saying that my way is the only way. I'm saying, that my way is the only way
according to me. All I did was just share my way, with a hope it would be helpful for some people.
Out of the curiosity, how do you know you don't have a sleep paralysis when you astral project? Can you have a projection and move your body at the same time?
Quote from: embrace on April 20, 2012, 16:11:23
Out of the curiosity, how do you know you don't have a sleep paralysis when you astral project? Can you have a projection and move your body at the same time?
They will eventually come to the conclusion they are experiencing sleep paralysis. The great majority of the projections have a momentary blackout, so they are not conscious of the sleep paralysis or even the vibrations, but they are occurring.
Once they have that first fully conscious OBE from exit to re-entry with absolutely no break in consciousness, they will see the whole process in its entirety.
Thanks for your comments Todd. Blackout may be the wrong word for it - it's more like a clean transition between being in bed doing a practice and then suddenly being 'out' without having experienced a split, with maybe a split second of nothing inbetween (this is what I call a blackout, maybe wrongly). What happens next can be clear, or clearly dream-like. I always considered the lack of a separation experience to be a positive thing personally, kinda like teleporting vs walking to get to where you want to go :) And based on what all the phasers on this forum have been saying, I'm not so sure about the split thing anymore. Maybe it's all metaphors (yes I read/watch Tom Campbell too :) )
So far I'm not sure if any OBE can be reliably subconscious-free (and I would stress the "I'm not sure" bit here, this isn't a conclusion I've reached), maybe there's always room for some doubt, so my focus is on learning to know the difference. Self-created (however realistic) vs what's 'really there' and really happening. That distinction is what matters to me, other than that I'm not very mechanics-oriented.
@Embrace, I completely agree with you about the need to develop our understanding, we're completely on the same page there :) There's so much info out there... And even if we happened to pick the right one to believe, that still wouldn't be very useful...! What I found problematic about your first post was that you stressed that it was based on your experience, but then applied this to other people as well in a way that imo could be a hindrance if people think they need conscious SP but then don't experience it and think they're stuck until they do. Some people just don't seem to have it, ever, which doesn't invalidate how it applies to you, it just means that it doesn't apply to everyone. That's all. People will figure out their own symptoms soon enough, then that's how it works for them. Come to think of it, it's an interesting thing how much the experience seems to vary, so the little scientist in me wants to figure out why and what makes the difference :) Maybe we'll know someday
All I can say is I've never experienced paralysis, even when going straight from very heavy body-definitely-asleep states to wide awake. But I can't rule it out completely because I try not to move at all if I intend to keep going with the practice :) Maybe that's because I don't seem to be the 'manual exit' type, who knows... Whether my body is paralysed in bed or not when I'm 'out', I'm not sure I would even notice. I don't find it that relevant to be honest, since it's not part of what I'm experiencing at the time. But I've never had a problem snapping out of it by moving my physical body if I want to.
Quote from: bluelily on April 20, 2012, 17:18:41
with maybe a split second of nothing inbetween (this is what I call a blackout, maybe wrongly). I always considered the lack of a separation experience to be a positive thing personally, kinda like teleporting vs walking to get to where you want to go :) And based on what all the phasers on this forum have been saying, I'm not so sure about the split thing anymore.
The blackout only lasts for a split second in most cases. During that split second you are unconscious. The same thing happens when you fall asleep. You get the split second blackout then you fall asleep. I believe that split second blackout is a safety mechanism; otherwise, we would never get any sleep.
Believe me when I say that once you have just one of these OBE's without that split second blackout, you experience everything in a new way. There is nothing greater in this world than one of these experiences in my opinion.
If you wake up in an OBE in another location besides your bedroom, you most definitely are blacking out.
I am not disagreeing with you here. I am just stating something that took me years until I realized.
Phasing isn't anything similar to a classic OBE as we are talking about here. Phasing is a more subjective experience. Everyone will have different phasing experiences since it is subjective.
Quote from: bluelily on April 20, 2012, 17:18:41
Thanks for your comments Todd. Blackout may be the wrong word for it - it's more like a clean transition between being in bed doing a practice and then suddenly being 'out' without having experienced a split, with maybe a split second of nothing inbetween (this is what I call a blackout, maybe wrongly). What happens next can be clear, or clearly dream-like. I always considered the lack of a separation experience to be a positive thing personally, kinda like teleporting vs walking to get to where you want to go :) And based on what all the phasers on this forum have been saying, I'm not so sure about the split thing anymore. Maybe it's all metaphors (yes I read/watch Tom Campbell too :) )
We call what you're talking about "Phasing". :)
It's a smooth transition of your consciousness from "here" to "there".
Some people also refer to it as doing a WILD (wake induced lucid dream).
Just to be clear also to avoid any misunderstanding (it happens), I'm fine with the notion that a lot could be going on during the transition process (paralysis, vibrations and whatnot) that we might not experience consciously. So maybe different people just have different symptoms of the complete picture of what happens... I just never particularly thought of that as a problem in itself, just stuff that goes on while I'm not paying attention to it. But if it's such a positive experience, I hope to go through that process someday :) I've experienced parts of it, just not the whole thing like you describe from beginning to end with no 'breaks'.
The subjective/objective distinction is still difficult as far as I'm concerned. Maybe that's just the nature of it. Right now it just looks to me like it's all mostly different ways of getting to the same experience (ultimately), which will then be somewhere along the spectrum of self-made experiences to complete objectivity (if such a thing even exists). I'm pretty new to the concept of phasing but I've heard enough reports of verifiable experiences that I'm interested in the approach at least. If it works, it works.
May I ask why you call phasing subjective? I'm not asking out of disagreement, just curiosity :)
@Xanth: I was starting to suspect that may be what you were all referring to :) There's a lot of new vocabulary for me to take in - I'm more used to the astral body separation type talk than this, and all the focus areas are new to me, so yeah... Confused :D (Still can't quite wrap my head around the LD vs OBE debate either. So many opinions.) Thanks for clarifying. I think I need to scratch my head and read a little more to figure out what I've been doing, lol.
First point...
I think the sleep paralysis issue is complicated by the fact that there are different types of OBE. For instance
1. RTZ projection in the physical environment
2. AP/LD experience in an astral environment that looks very similar to the physical
3. Phasing experience in a non physical environment
4. RTZ projection whilst the physical body is active (eg driving a car, playing the organ)
5. Other types...
That's my first point. Apples and oranges. I think people on this thread are talking about apples and oranges!
Second point
I think there are different types of sleep paralysis?! eg
1. Full catalepsy, experiencer is unable to move their physical body no matter how hard they try.
2. Partial paralysis, experiencer is "disconnected" from the physical body so that the astral movements are not acted out physically. But shifting attention back to the physical will "reconnect" them with the physical body, relatively easily.
It may be that these are in fact both the same types of paralysis, with No 1 being a much deeper type of No 2.
Third point
The onset of sleep paralysis might coincide with the transference of consciousness/awareness away from the physical body. In this case the experiencer will be completely unaware of their sleep paralysis.
For example, I have quite often got myself into a hypnogogic state where I could still move my physical arms. However, after a tiny amount of deepening, I find that I can make the attempt to lift my arm, but the astral arm moves instead, and the physical one remains at rest. In this case sleep paralysis has occurred, but is undetected, because it coincides with a shift in attention away from the physical body.
Perhaps sleep paralysis is only ever noticed when it does not coincide with a shift in attention away from the physical?
Anyway, it's a complicated issue.
I also wonder whether SP is more associated with RTZ "etheric" type projections. embrace, this is why I asked you whether your OBEs tend to be RTZ types?
Catmeow,
Your post is entirely correct based upon my experiences. I hope everyone will read his post multiple times. It's important to understand. The exact time of separation of the consciousness determines the entire experience whether it is an etheric projection, astral projection, lucid dream, or phasing experience. It also determines the environment you will find yourself in. I realized this when I analyzed my experiences in detail.
If I separate at the exact moment of the tug, I find myself in an etheric projection in the RTZ every time. If I wait too long and separate after the tug, I find myself in a very lucid/etheric dream. Then I have to separate during the lucid dream to make it into the RTZ.
I suspect phasers, meditators, and regular lucid dreamers separate at a different time also. Someday, I would like to figure out when they separate. At the moment I believe they separate before the tug which would explain why many of them lack sleep paralysis and vibrations.
Everything is a theory until someone can prove OBE's through the use of electromagnetic instruments.
Quote from: bluelily on April 20, 2012, 19:03:17
So maybe different people just have different symptoms of the complete picture of what happens...
May I ask why you call phasing subjective? I'm not asking out of disagreement, just curiosity :)
Bluelily,
I totally agree with you when you said different people just have different symptoms of the complete picture of what happens.
I am no expert on phasing, so I don't really know the answer to your question. Sorry. But, I will try to answer it with my limited knowledge of phasing. Many people report phasing sensations where they are still partially aware of their physical body which means they still are using their brain for at least some sensory input. Anytime the brain is involved, it creates a subjective experience. I don't do phasing, so I really don't know if my answer is a correct one.
All words are inherently subjective.
They become objective when you can put a widespread agreed upon(verifiable) meaning correlated alongside.
For instance, the handicap sign is a objective symbol. What the sign could mean to each person is the subjective side of it. Such as a handicap sign may be a grim reminder of a person's social status if they got both their legs chopped off in war.
Because the 'phase' is intangible, and completely individualized, it can't be shared easily, we have a phenomenon that is difficult to verify (consensus among peers).
The result of not being able to link any physical concept or external concept (everything is internal) rules out all the possibility of the 'phase' experience ever being objective. At least until we get fancy new technology.
In this light you can see that subjective is not the exception, everything has a air of subjectivity because you perceive (classic :-D-'I exist therefor I am') So, objective is the exception, unfortunately this is not the way the western world perceives the natural order.
Cheers,
Contenteo
On the term sleep paralysis, it has always been understood and used as a condition where you are find yourself unable to move at the borderline of sleep, and being aware of that condition during it.
It is not a term that is generally used outside of that context even though lack of muscle tone occurs at various different points during sleep, where you might refer to the body as "paralyzed".
It's probably not the best use of the term sleep paralysis to refer to that situation. I think we're better off just calling it "sleep".
But even if understanding it solely as a lack of muscle tone, this does not have to be the case at all during OBE onset.
Anyone can verify this if initiating it from the waking state without lapse in consciousness.
It is possible to freely move around at OBE onset without any sort of sleep paralysis, upon until the very last stages .
You can even move part of your physical body while the rest of you is in partial seperation. Not easy, but it can be done.
To take it even further, you can activate your physical body and create muscle tension inside your physical body, while inside of an out of body environment, and remain inside of it.
I've woken up with sore muscles because of experiments like those.
Leave it alone, then yes, muscle tone will go down in the course of the transition process, and usually will still stay at a very low point afterwards.
I would still not call this "sleep paralysis" however.
As Contenteo noted, mind awake/body asleep is the more accurate way of phrasing it, with or without paralysis, and usually without.
It's not that common to get "stuck" in this manner in the course of the transition. I have only rarely experienced it, and when I do, it's only a partial paralysis.
It's best avoided, since the lack of mobility characterizing the state goes both ways, not just physical, but nonphysical as well.
Quote from: bluelily on April 20, 2012, 19:03:17
@Xanth: I was starting to suspect that may be what you were all referring to :) There's a lot of new vocabulary for me to take in - I'm more used to the astral body separation type talk than this, and all the focus areas are new to me, so yeah... Confused :D (Still can't quite wrap my head around the LD vs OBE debate either. So many opinions.) Thanks for clarifying. I think I need to scratch my head and read a little more to figure out what I've been doing, lol.
Yup! It's just all everyone's separate metaphors for how they describe their exits and such.
An important skill I find to have is being able to sort through the metaphors others use and connect them to your own. For example, like above, I can take someone mentioning that they do "WILDs" on a regular basis to mean that they're extremely proficient in what I call "Phasing". :)
I think you're doing great. :)
@Xanth, that's it, metaphors. I still don't know what the objective process really is - people experience such different things and different from mine. I'm not sure how to even tell whether how the process tends to work for me is a simple shift in consciousness (i.e. phasing) or a shift from one body to the other with me missing out on parts of the process...
So I'm hoping to figure all that out eventually. I'm familiar with 'my' process but it's kind of old data from before I stopped practicing, it's been at least a year now since my last OBE of any kind. These days I'm still stuck in the pre-blackout stages, but I haven't been at it that long. Just don't want to create my own answers. But it'll be interesting to see if the phasing approach leads to a different exit method than what I'm used to :) Sounds about the same but I'll have to see.
QuoteAn important skill I find to have is being able to sort through the metaphors others use and connect them to your own. For example, like above, I can take someone mentioning that they do "WILDs" on a regular basis to mean that they're extremely proficient in what I call "Phasing".
I like that Xanth. That is so true.
I developed my mental model by adhering to the one Monroe set forth and continuously asking, hmm what did he mean about "this" or "that." And constantly looking for correlations. Tom's F10 post helps put a solid foundation in there too. From there it is simply experiencing getting to F18. And then you know all the parts. I made a conceptual framework to help solidify my understanding of these lower realms. I mean this guy founded the discipline. You know he got the lower level parts of it spot on at least. You have to trust the founder to at least that degree. It just took a little bit of research and trust and bingo, it's grand, you can interpret all the metaphors you want because you can but this experience into a sequential model. Yeah, some deviates a little, but the core tenets capture the key success factors.
My Old Conceptual Framework
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h438/Robert_Carbone/Contenteos2011ConceptualFramework.jpg (http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h438/Robert_Carbone/Contenteos2011ConceptualFramework.jpg)
Cheers,
Contenteo
I had two obe's in the last two days. One was with a deep sleep paralysis state and one was with a partial sleep paralysis state. There were significant differences between the two experiences.
Deep sleep paralysis:
-- very mild vibrations
-- very easy exit separation (feels like just falling out of your body in a very easy way)
-- less intense sounds upon separation
-- less intense heart beat and breathing
Partial sleep paralysis:
-- very intense vibrations
-- took more will and energy to separate
-- louder sounds at the moment of separation
-- felt my heart pounding and rapid breathing
Both projective experiences were good in there own unique way. Sometimes I like the real intense separation symptoms and sometimes I prefer the milder sensations.
I am enjoying this thread to no end!
I a beginner in that I have experience spontaneity SP & OBE's but have only recently been able to induce them AND put a 'vocabularic' context to them wia this forum and certain books. So far, if I induce or experience what I understand to be called SP, I can 'lift/float' out. But I think it ist true exciting how many methods there are for this.
It ist great to be a part of a community vhere every one appears to have a common objective/end-goal but yet are so accepting of other own experiences & methods in achieving said objective. Vhere I hail from in the world, acceptance is not common-place. By read this, anything is possible & I vill continue read, learn, experience the astral (so to spek) in new ways.
Again, I am wery much a beginner so I haven't anything to add other than a thank you insofar - particularly to those who vork to clairfy vocabulary & continually explain to newcomers that there are many viable method!
XO
Tessie
Post S. Pardon my English again... I have trouble still to write non-phonetical. Sorry... :oops: :?
I just love this forum :-D
Just to ad to the first post, I also use that method of projection quite frequently.
The only difference is that I don't stay awake for an hour before trying to get back
to sleep. I just turn around in bed and focus on my breathing to keep my mind awake.
It works 90% of the time.
Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge :-) It's great to be here!
Quote from: bluelily on April 21, 2012, 15:18:40
@Xanth, that's it, metaphors. I still don't know what the objective process really is - people experience such different things and different from mine. I'm not sure how to even tell whether how the process tends to work for me is a simple shift in consciousness (i.e. phasing) or a shift from one body to the other with me missing out on parts of the process...
Personally, I'm eager to get rid of the term phasing as it is often used now, and it will eventually, because phasing has always been primarily a theory and metaphor, not a method.
It was mostly simply introduced as a theory and metaphor by Monroe, not really as a verb for doing something (i.e. "to phase").
Some redefining is sorely needed, as right now, a lot of people are confused, for good reason.
For example, the classic OBE
is phasing in a theoretical sense, since after you all, you are "phasing out" of the physical during a regular OBE.
So there is a disconnect between the theoretical and practical use of the term. In the latter case it is considered different from the classic OBE, while in the former, they are one and the same thing.
So something has to give, which in my opinion is the the term phasing as a particular
method for moving beyond the physical body.
Where the
practical usage of the term is useful I think, is to relate it directly to the "quick-switch", as originally described by Monroe.
Here, one environment was quickly replaced by another by moving your attention
after the out of body state had already been established. Usually, this is done most effectively from the void.
In those circumstances, there is indeed a sense of "phasing", and the term describes the process quite well.
However, to use the term for anything that occurs
before the out of body state has been established, in terms of practice, leads to confusion, because it cannot really be distinguished from the classical OBE on a theoretical level. It also does not describe the process that well.
So a new terminology is needed, to distinguish between the various transitions that may lead to the out of body state, where eventually you find yourself at a different location than that of your physical body, or at least, you are no longer synchronized with it.
In the past six years, I spend a lot of OBE time trying to figure it out, and also to make sense of it on a conceptual level.
In the end, I came to conclusion that the only way to properly conceptualize the experience, without conflict between theory and practice, is to distinguish between
parasomatic and
asomatic transitions.
During a parasomatic transition, body awareness is maintained during the transition, which leads to what many think of the "classical" OBE.
During an asomatic transition, no body awareness is maintained during the transition, which leads to a more visual type of "exit."
For more info on this (yes, I'm still shamelessly plugging):
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_book_reviews/explorations_in_consciousness_book_release-t36545.0.html
^
Good post.
What confused me about the term "phasing" (quite possibly my fault and nothing to do with the explanations, I'll admit) was whether it referred to the consciousness shift i.e. basically teleportation out of the body, or the technique I've also seen referred to as "noticing" (from the beginning until fully out). At first I thought it meant the latter. Still not really sure and I'm not sure people use the term in the same way.
I agree it would be useful to have consistent and intuitive vocabulary to distinguish between the classic astral body projection vs the consciousness jump method of moving around and getting out in the first place. It's confusing for me and I've gone through the process before - I can only imagine how confusing it must be for beginners.
The term is used in multiple ways, which is what makes it confusing.
It's used to refer to a metaphor or theory, a method, and an experience, and all three are quite different.
I think the term is okay as a theory or metaphor of moving through consciousness. As an experience, it also sometimes fits, in terms of the quick-switch.
Not sure whether it offers anything new as a method if all it involves is noticing.
Hi,
Being conversant with electronics and its inherent terminology. The phase state is referenced to your conciousness based on its location between the physical 0 degrees and astral 180 degrees.
This is ok in principle but no one has defined any values in between these states with a reference numerically attached to any of the recognised signposts.
This could be addressed but would cause further complications to anyone unfamiliar with the terminology.
It would make perfect sense to ascribe a percentage to this with referenced points like vibrations placed accordingly.
Who would like this job?
Everyone understands percentage so.....
Actually, Monroe already did that in his second book Far Journeys, in terms of percentages, even before he introduced the phasing metaphor.
In some ways, I suspect Monroe's second book is more in line with his personal thinking than his last.
Quote from: Szaxx on April 23, 2012, 17:02:00
Hi,
Being conversant with electronics and its inherent terminology. The phase state is referenced to your conciousness based on its location between the physical 0 degrees and astral 180 degrees.
This is ok in principle but no one has defined any values in between these states with a reference numerically attached to any of the recognised signposts.
This could be addressed but would cause further complications to anyone unfamiliar with the terminology.
It would make perfect sense to ascribe a percentage to this with referenced points like vibrations placed accordingly.
Who would like this job?
Everyone understands percentage so.....
I don't think a percentage (or angle) can be assigned to each signpost. That's because such correlations do not exist. The signposts do not all lie on one simple continuous "phase scale" imo. And what signposts do we assign to angles greater than 180 degrees?
I don't think the term is an accurate model for any mechanism which might be taking place. Some people report being fully conscious in the astral, whilst their physical body retains consciousness too, carrying out complex tasks, eg taking a driving test. How do such dual and even multiple consciousness experiences fit into the phasing model? They don't!
From an engineering point of view, it's an appealing metaphor. I'm an engineer myself. I'm actually attracted to the model. For example we would have a "phase relationship" between any two realities. But in practice it isn't that simple. The universe isn't that simple. It seems that people are constantly trying to find really simple models or metaphors for the large spectrum of astral experiences. Hence we get phasing and focus levels. But it just isn't that simple. There are so many aspects to the astral experience.
So I just think of the term "phasing" as a metaphor for a switch in consciousness, nothing more. I don't see it as a practical model for any actual mechanism which might be taking place.
Hi MT, it's been a little while!
Quote from: Major Tom on April 23, 2012, 17:23:21
In some ways, I suspect Monroe's second book is more in line with his personal thinking than his last.
So what are you saying about his last book!
Hey Catmeow :-). I guess some people stick around for decades, right?
I love his last book, since he really pushed the bar there on a personal level, moving beyond what we generally refer to as human consciousness.
But there are also some inconsistencies with his previous work I think. From what I remember reading his biography, he had difficulty completing the book, struggling with several things, including on a conceptual level perhaps.
What stands out for me, for example, is how in his second book he considered the influence of the time-space continuum to slowly diminish as you move further out in the wider of spectrum of consciousness.
He puts it there in terms of percentages, which is attractive in some ways. It even includes a nullpoint, which I find very interesting, since I have encountered it once.
Yet, in his third book, the notion of focus 27 pops up, which is very "physical" in many ways, and seems to go against the idea of diminishing time-space influence in his second book.
I'm not really sure what is happening there, or what went through his mind in doing that, but it conflicts in some ways.
Maybe it is because he did need some outside help finishing the book, or he was trying to placate the general crowd, which may have put some pressure on him. I don't know.
He was in a tough position, often sacrificing his own personal development for the sake of helping others.
In either case, the inconsistency has never been quite explained.
My sense is that he considered it quite real as he experienced, but at the same struggled to allign it with his previous work. But I'm only speculating here.
He left a great legacy either way, far surpassing the abilities of anyone else I know, and I think he is still underestimated.
Nice to see you still here btw :-)
MT
Quote from: Szaxx on April 23, 2012, 17:02:00
It would make perfect sense to ascribe a percentage to this with referenced points like vibrations placed accordingly.
Yes, this is a great idea. I have been working on it for awhile. I think this type of road map could make projections easily understandable in a scientific format that could be reproducible among other projectionists.
When you subtract all the visualizations and hallucinations, you are left with the core OBE phenomena that is actually reproducible among other projectionists when you know the exact sequence of events. This could be studied scientifically, just like they have studied the stages of sleep.
All they would need to scientifically prove the OBE phenomena is a study of the brain waves along with sensitive electromagnetic equipment to pick up changes to the energy body. Maybe someday this will happen.
In the meantime, I would welcome anyone to start up a thread that discusses this projection road map in detail, and others can add input to it. Once the entire road map along with how it relates to different projective phenomena is known, then others can easily see where they are at along the road map. Then the new forum members can decide what experience they would like to have, then they can follow the particular road map for that experience.
Contenteo has a phasing road map on astral pulse, he posted a while ago. It is very good. Adding other road maps for all the possible projections would be greatly helpful to others.
Quote from: todd421757 on April 23, 2012, 19:58:07
Yes, this is a great idea. I have been working on it for awhile. I think this type of road map could make projections easily understandable in a scientific format that could be reproducible among other projectionists.
But like I said, has this not already been done before?
I'd have to agree with Catmeow, that the actual "mechanism" will turn out to be quite complex, not easily reducible to a percentage.
It's okay as a working model or metaphor, but I don't think anyone really knows which way it will turn out at this point, except for pointing in potentially fruitful directions.
Personally, I feel that the only way forward is going back to the experience, which tends to be too quickly sacrificed when it comes to theory.
Only then, you arrive at something which can be called a "theory" perhaps.
It's messy, unclean, and dirty, but quite beautiful at the same time when you get into it.
MT
Quote from: Major Tom on April 23, 2012, 20:05:10
But like I said, has this not already been done before?
I don't entirely trust Monroe's classification. The reason is because Monroe said towards the beginning of his second book that he lost the ability to project using his methods from his first book. This leads me to believe he cannot reproduce the exact state he got in the first book.
Waldo Vieria in his 1200 page "Projectiology" book probably has the best classification of all the possible projection phenomena. Unfortunately, the book is hard to navigate since he came up with his own nomenclature.
I think you are referring to Monroe mentioning somewhere that the Hemi Sync technology did not work for him, because he developed it, and therefore his analytical mind was triggered everytime he listened to it?
This consequently interfered with his ability to get into the right state.
That is something completely different from him losing any sort of ability.
Major Tom,
You're right. I went back to the book and re-read it. He lost the ability to project with Hemi Sync.
Hi Todd,
It's an interesting phenomenon I think, where too much attention to the process tends to interfere with the process.
Ofcourse, he never lost his ability, but he couldn't do it with the technology he developed himself.
The way he developed the technology is an interesting thing itself. He started with sleep learning, perhaps with the idea of finding some commercial use, playing tapes so perhaps he would remember it the next day.
In essence, he screwed up his natural sleep cycles. From my perspective, it is not that surprising that he started to experience OBEs much later.
What continues to baffle me, however, is how he got to be so very good at it with extremely high levels of lucidity.
So in that sense, he did appear to be a "natural" of sorts, as well as what he with did with it afterwards of course.
MT
Quote from: Major Tom on April 23, 2012, 21:20:28
Hi Todd,
It's an interesting phenomenon I think, where too much attention to the process tends to interfere with the process.
I think this phenomenon happens with many of us here with our techniques. I notice many people have great success with a particular technique for a little while, then the technique somehow stops working for them.
The only way I found to avoid this situation is to change up to a different technique for each day. It has improved my success.
Quote from: Major Tom on April 23, 2012, 18:40:47
I love his last book, since he really pushed the bar there on a personal level, moving beyond what we generally refer to as human consciousness.
But there are also some inconsistencies with his previous work I think. From what I remember reading his biography, he had difficulty completing the book, struggling with several things, including on a conceptual level perhaps.
...
I'm not really sure what is happening there, or what went through his mind in doing that, but it conflicts in some ways.
Hi MT, thanks for that very detailed reply!
I was a little shocked, having read Bob Monroe's first book many years ago, to look at the follow ups, years later and to see such radical changes in substance and style. It is a little suspicious. Never the less I have no doubt that he is describing real experiences. It may be that he was pressurised by his publishers to "sex them up" a bit for the popular market.
There is also a question mark over his first OOBE experiences. In his first book he describes these as occurring spontaneously, after experiencing stomach cramps (I think). However, there is an early publication in which BM admits that his first OOBE was drug induced. I tried to find the article on the www but couldn't, so it's just something in the back of my mind, which I seem to remember.
So a couple of question marks there. However, if there are inconsistencies and question marks, it doesn't matter to me. The books are still factually based imho. I remember reading "Journeys Out Of The Body" as a teenager, and being captivated by it. It was ground breaking and packed with information. There was no other book like it at the time. Being scientific myself, his analytic style really appealed to me.
Bob Monroe was really the father of this whole field. He is still one of the greats, and deserves huge credit for driving this field along.
Hi Catmeow,
Yes, there was a book or article by a scientist where that claim was made. Monroe has always denied this was the case, however.
The biography by Ronald Russel goes deeper into that affair, which is a really interesting read.
I agree it was ground breaking, and I still come across original ideas in his books that I had not noticed before.
TM