Ap Friends,
Noticed this CNN post and decided to add this start a new thread.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/
http://staff.washington.edu/~chudler/obe.html
Still this doesn't prove if NDE or OBE isn't valid. What about the validations of patients that can report precise conditions of their environment. What about your validations - how far do they measure up to this.
Tvos
i also read that articla in a slightly chsnged form. they say that they cant say if this is the only source for obes happening. also i dont think that i trained this specific part of my brain to malfunction by doing energy work and meditation in only 4 weeks.
"Lots of people try to explain something away which is for many people, an amazing experience that has transformed their lives." said Blanke.
i completely agree.
jalef,
That is a excellent point you made. I did read the article in various other news web sites. It does raise some excellent questions about the oobe and what triggers it. But what you mentioned about the failing part doesn't make sense or relate to someone who is healthy.
Tvos
Quote from: the voice of silenceAp Friends,
Noticed this CNN post and decided to add this start a new thread.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/
http://staff.washington.edu/~chudler/obe.html
Still this doesn't prove if NDE or OBE isn't valid. What about the validations of patients that can report precise conditions of their environment. What about your validations - how far do they measure up to this.
Tvos
Since I've been having OB experiences since I was a child, and I had read that people with epilepsy had them, about 10 years ago I was in a car accident, and went to the hospital. Since I knew about this connection and was curious about it, I saw a neurologist (since he was going to see me anyway) to have myself tested for epileptic seizures, and had what is known as a 'sleep study'. They put you to sleep (although I remembered everything, they said I was asleep), with electrodes on your head and strobe a light at your closed eyes at different frequencies, and map your eeg impulses, to see if there is any stray reaction (seizure). I passed with flying colors, no epilepsy or other neurological abnormality (other than my charming personality, that is). So I know that it may explain(away) some cases, but certainly not all of them.
CFTraveler,
Did you explain to the doctors you had obe's and was able to validate your experiences?
Glade to see you are doing good w/o the seizures!
Tvos
Hell no! I said that after the accident I was losing time, being somewhere and then suddenly waking up on the floor somewhere else without knowing how I got there. I knew this is a symptom of petit mal, so I asked to be tested for epilepsy.
CFTraveler,
During the sleep study, how long did it last? Did you try to induce a oobe to see what would show ont he charts?
I hope you are okay now!
Tvos
ps. I bet ya if you told them that you experienced OOBE's they would have commited you..:)
As if the brain is completely understood yet, these findings can't get rid of stuff like psychics spotting OBE'ers far away, and etc.
Quote from: the voice of silenceCFTraveler,
During the sleep study, how long did it last? Did you try to induce a oobe to see what would show ont he charts?
I hope you are okay now!
Tvos
ps. I bet ya if you told them that you experienced OOBE's they would have commited you..:)
It lasted maybe 3-4 hours. They gave me this nasty stuff to drink, I lay there with my eyes closed, and in my experience I stayed awake the whole time. That was weird, because they said I was asleep (and had the eeg to prove it). But I remembered everything. At the time I didn't even know you could induce an OB- I was a spontaneous projector all my life until just like 2-3 years ago, and only deliberately succesful this year, where the floodgates have opened, so to speak. I was just curious about the epilepsy angle.
tvos: Thanks for your concern, I'm ok now- my back never fully recovered, but going over 47 and gaining weight may have something to do with it!
CFTraveler,
I've had those times when trying to sleep, I lay restless, my eyes closed with intent on sleeping, then the alarm clock goes off and its time to get up for work and felt that only minutes went by... that is THE BEST time for projecting!!
Maybe you can research the lab and see if your able to go back again to try and project. Sign up for some experiments!!
Tvos
Speaking as a scientist and engineer I am very familiar with the scientific process and can say categorically that this single report by Dr Olaf Blanke, as well intentioned as I believe it is, has no actual scientific value whatsoever.
Dr Blanke obtained this result in only one epileptic patient. He did not achieve this result in any of his other patients. We also only have his word that it actually happened as reported, ie that (1) it happened at all and (2) it only happened whilst stimulating the angular gyrus. Additionally, this result has never been replicated by anyone, ever, anywhere in the world. For this result to have value it would need:
- To be obtained in a large statistically significant sample of normal people
- To be conducted as a double-blind placebo-controlled experiment (somehow)
- To be repeatable by other scientists in other labs
Now I'm sure that Dr Blanke is an honest and well intentioned man. He's probably a very good scientist, and I'm sure that something interesting happened with this one particular patient in his lab. But at the moment this result is both:
1) Anecdotal (we only have his word for it) and
2) Non-reproducable (nobody has been able to reproduce his results)
Ironically, these two criticisms are precisely the same two criticisms constantly levied against the psychic community. There are literally thousands and thousands of similar anecdotal reports of OBE's and NDE's, many of which include information which could only be gathered by some sort of non-physical sense, which are ignored and scoffed at by the greater scientific community. They are ignored because they are "anecdotal" and "non-reproducable". The individuals describing these experiences can't be relied upon to give accurate descriptions, can't be trusted and the experiences and the results can't be replicated in the lab!
Now weigh up the thousands and thousands of anecdotal reports of veridical OBE's and NDE's against a single report of an experiment on a single individual by a scientist in Switzerland. What proof do we have that this happened? What proof do we have that the experiment was conducted exactly as he says? Where is the peer review? Where is the double-blind trial? Has this result been reproduced by other scientists? Has it actually been reproduced in anybody else?
The answers are "none", "none", "nowhere", "nowhere", "no", and "no".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm sure it did, but we need to apply exactly the same standards of scientific rigour to this single incident, as skeptics apply to anecdotes of OBE's and NDE's. It's nonsense to seize on this single account and say it "proves" that OBE's are "imaginary" or they are the result of neurological misfunction. It proves nothing of the sort. But it is however testimony to the bias and vitriole of skeptics, who suddenly discard their high standards of scientific rigour - when it comes to an incident that seems to go their way. Well, I'm sorry but they can't have it both ways!
Now let's assume that this incident actually happened, as I'm sure it did. I don't mistrust Dr Blanke just as Dr Blanke shouldn't mistrust me when I describe my own highly veridical psychic experiences. But what does it actually mean? Does it mean that OBE's are a neurological misfunction?
Not at all!!!
There are many ways to skin a cat. Just because Dr Blanke stuck a needle into one person's brain and it gave them the sensation of "leaving the body" doesn't mean that he has suddenly discovered the mechanism by which all OBE's operate. It doesn't mean he has debunked the myth of OBE's! You can jump start a car by pushing it down a hill. This doesn't mean that cars only start downhill and the "great myth of cars driving uphill" has finally been debunked! What rubbish!
And what can we make of this particular "out of body experience"? Was it really the same experience as those spontaneous OBE's described by thousands and thousands of people the world over? We have no way of knowing. Did the subject describe scenes and events beyond her physical ken? Was she able to move around freely and observe her physical body? Could she float and walk through walls? Could she travel to distant places and bring back verifiable information? We actually don't know because the precise sensations do not seem to have been clearly reported. Also any sensations that have been reported are anecdotal and subject to the same possible errors in interpretation as all anecdotes are. We do know that the patient "saw her legs shortening" and "saw her knees about to hit her face", and that's about it. So I'm not even sure that I understand exactly what sort of experience this subject actually had. It's all a bit vague for a monumental discovery which debunks OBE's.
Also since this result was obtained in an epileptic subject, is it really representative of the neurological workings of a normal person? Absolutely not. Results obtained in an epileptic subject can not be assumed to apply to people with normal neurology. Not unless they are found in normal subjects too. But they haven't been. So the result is questionable on that score too.
So this really is a highly questionable incident. It's interesting I admit, but in no way does it cast any cloud whatsoever over the reality of OBE's and NDE's. For those skeptics who claim it does, I'm sorry but you're wrong. Scientifically, by your own skeptical standards of rigour, it's meaningless.
catmeow
Catmeow,
I am not arguing with you what so ever. I am so happy that you brought this to the open because of your background and being a scientist and engineer. I've been doing A LOT of reading, research on NDE's, OBE's and having millions of people around the world reporting the same sequence.. - that to me is something to look at and can't ignore. Also, based upon my experiences too - I have no doubt, but also healthy to keep a open mind.
Anyways, how did you get involved with OBE's and being a scientist did it take you sometime to convience yourself? Kinda of like robert peterson was at first and how he approached obe's?
tvos
QuoteOut-of-body experience clues may hide in mind
Scientists: Misfiring brain behind bizarre sensation
LMAO! My brain accidentally misfired, and shot my neighbor.
(I admit, I'd had a few beers.) :drunks:
Hi Tvos
My argument absolutely is not with you at all as I hope you realise! I realise you just posted the link to bring this particular interesting subject into the open. I've seen this study before and I've seen the hysterical reaction it generated in the media and the skeptical community as "proof that OBE's are just imaginary". Also I realise how flawed and ridiculous such a conclusion is! Just sharing!
I became interested in OBE's as a teenager after reading a chapter called "Flying" in a book by Tibetan Lama Lobsang Rampa, and I used to constantly bore my friends at school by talking about it. That was until I described to someone the layout of their house, the furniture and so on without ever having been there. A little later I wrote a 30,000 word "thesis" on out-of-body experiences as part of a school project. I got an "A" grade for this! I've been hooked ever since, studied the subject and built up an extensive library. My scientific background comes from doing an engineering degree and Phd, which made me very familiar with the engineering and scientific process.
My first OBE occurred (again) as a teenager when I woke up one saturday morning and basically "willed" myself to float up with all my strength. To my astonishment I felt myself float up and suddenly found myself looking at the patterns in the white polystyrene ceiling tiles from a distance of a couple of inches. I also taught myself hypnosis and was able to hypnotise various friends at school, but my biggest success was hypnotising my mother which I could do at a distance just by concentrating. Various other psychic verifications followed.
For me there is absolutely no question that psychic abilities exist - I've had sufficient personal verification, and in that respect I suppose I'm quite lucky. But I'm not convinced that this all means that we survive physical death. I believe it's more likely than not, but unproven. But I like to think that I retain a completely open mind, and will always argue against bias, stupidity, bad science and closed-mindedness. Because it annoys me! We have literally thousands of cases of OBE's and all of these people have something worth listening to. As someone cleverer than me once said:
"Whatever the humblest men affirm from their own experience is always worth listening to, but what even the cleverest of men, in their ignorance, deny, is never worth a moment's attention" - Sir William Barrett
:wink:
the cat meow's
she's back
good stuff!
4ur2b3
u cannot see it only indirectly observe it
therefore a misrepresentation
but still a working function
MT - Precisley. Good points!
Quotethis result has never been replicated by anyone, ever, anywhere in the world
Note- this result has been replicated. Direct replication are some cases of Wilder Penfield. Halgren E, Walter RD, Cherlow DG had carried out thousands of stimulations, but they speak from "hallucinations of vivid scenes like weird dream", etc etc, simply no such terms as OBEs. Certain replication is work of Yu.N. Cherednichenko, also concerning angular gyrus. Siberian Branch of Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. Institute of General Pathology and Human Ecology, Laboratory of clinical diagnostics and therapy. He had healthy test subjects!!!
QuoteCould she travel to distant places and bring back verifiable information?
Yes. By Cherednichenko this was the case. Also note- Dr. Olaf Blanke revealed that the epileptic patient actually made visual observations of the operating room that the conventional scientific paradigm cannot explain. Even though he understandably excluded these details from the article published in the journal Nature. Although he is unsure how patients can see themselves, given no such information is picked up by their eyes.
QuoteWe do know that the patient "saw her legs shortening" and "saw her knees about to hit her face"
This is the so called micropsia. Also some practical projectors by projecting with OPEN EYES can observe the same.
Quotebut in no way does it cast any cloud whatsoever over the reality of OBE's and NDE's
Absolutely correct. Make an attempt to imagine the process of OBE in terms of substance dualism. The brain is a thing, it is clear, but imagine for example the consciousness as another thing, ontologically fully different, but a thing. Make an attempt to imagine energy-informative INTERACTION.
QuoteThere is this idea around for a couple of centuries already since Descartes that if we can prove a particular mind state is related to the brain, that somehow that mind state is caused by the brain.
But where the problem lies? Carry out an out of body experience and some mental states will be caused by astral body, not by brain. :cheerleader2: :cheerleader2: :cheerleader2:
Catmeow, In addition to Skropenfield's examples, I believe there have been other occurrences as well. According to articles I've read in the past couple of years. Scientists are just beginning to study this kind of thing.
Did you know that, by stimulating certain parts of the brain with electrodes, scientists have caused rats to eat themselves to death? Or, in the reverse, they have shut off the hunger signal and the mice won't eat at all. If memory serves, use of magnets on particular areas of the brain has caused temporary blindness.
My point is that this study comes closer to proving OBE exists than otherwise. Everything we experience, including sight, speech, dreaming, mobility, etc. is caused by impulses from some area of the brain. Therefore, this result goes far toward showing OBE is a real event.
TVoS, you have done it again. Nice post and keep up the good work!
^great post
What do eastern mystics say about these kind of experiments? (trying to invalidate OBE's)
Quote from: skropenfieldNote- this result has been replicated. Direct replication are some cases of Wilder Penfield. Halgren E, Walter RD, Cherlow DG had carried out thousands of stimulations, but they speak from "hallucinations of vivid scenes like weird dream", etc etc, simply no such terms as OBEs. Certain replication is work of Yu.N. Cherednichenko, also concerning angular gyrus. Siberian Branch of Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. Institute of General Pathology and Human Ecology, Laboratory of clinical diagnostics and therapy. He had healthy test subjects!!!
Thanks for the interesting info, which I'll follow up, but I'm not really convinced that others have repeated Dr Blanke's exact result, ie obtaining OBE's by stimulating the angular gyrus. Blanke himself obtained this result in only one subject, a female epileptic, by accident and with no experimental controls in place. Nevertheless this hasn't stopped commentators from going ballistic and suggesting that we now have the answer to OBE's. The reason? Well apparently since the angular gyrus is responsible for body and spatial awareness, stimulating it naturally produces OBE's, which are therefore all just hallucinations.
This explanation is actually contradicted by Penfield (who you quoted). Penfield apparently produced OBE-like experiences back in the 1950's by stimulating the sylvian fissure, a completely different area of the brain. The sylvian fissure has nothing to do with body and spatial awareness, yet stimulating it also produced OBE-like sensations. Additionally as you say many neurologists have produced dream-like sensations, colours, shapes, and hallucinations by electrically or magnetically stimulating different parts of the brain.
However, there is no concensus, with different researchers obtaining varying results by stimulating different parts of the brain. Scientifically, this just isn't good enough to justify any of the claims made by commentators after Blankes (single) result. I do agree that all of these results are interesting and worthy of much more research. But no conclusions can be drawn until
the same results can be replicated at least once by different researchers in different labs. As far as I am aware this concensus has not happened. (I don't know much about Cherednichenko's work in this respect. Can you provide some links to this research?)
I'm just asking OBE-skeptics to provide the same, rigorous scientific controls and proofs to support their own claims as they require of OBE-believers to support theirs. And to stop making unscientific claims! :wink:
But in any event I think we basically agree. Even if scientists discover a fool-proof way of producing OBE's by stimulating a certain part of the brain, and let's hope they do, this wouldn't mean that OBE's are hallucinations. It could just as easily mean that scientists discovered a good way of ejecting people from their bodies!
Quote from: greatoutdoorsMy point is that this study comes closer to proving OBE exists than otherwise
I agree!
Catmeow,
I agree with the previous posts made about how "science" is just beginning to realize and tap into this field of testing and work. I think with the experiences we've heard about NDE's validations, blind people who obe and can describe in perfect details, and even our own validations. We can't deny something is definitely there... but to have science validate the OBE, I don't think we will ever see it in our lifetime, or if ever. I think some things like this won't be able to access because of the sacredness and what God has created.
Tvos
Yes, an OBE is a non-physical phenomena. For science to prove, and therefore accept, they'll have to accept the existence of non-physical phenomena, a feat I don't think they will make.
We are going to hit a stalemate in science soon.
Quote from: DonalYes, an OBE is a non-physical phenomena. For science to prove, and therefore accept, they'll have to accept the existence of non-physical phenomena, a feat I don't think they will make.
We are going to hit a stalemate in science soon.
If it is non-physical phenomena, how can the physical have knowledge of it (ie if the physical couldn;t have knowledge of the astral, then this forum wouldn't be here).
Well, I believe the physical is tied into the non-physical. Actually, this is true according to physics. E=mc^2 literally means that energy is accelerated matter. So, energy is matter. In an OBE we exist in a form of pure energy. Then when we return our bodies, the memories of our energy bodies are transferred to our physical brain. This is quite easy since our brains operate via bioelectric impulse, i.e. energy.
-Z
Interesting theory zyzyx.
And MJ, I meant to say it in that consciousness is non-physical, and science would have to expand their boundaries to cater for that.
Science certainly doesn't interfere with much. Nobody can prove that the astral doesn't exist, so science has it as "maybe" -- rare are the scientists who rule out the existence of other dimensions beyond our scope of perception.
Those who do are not scientists. Science has no room for dogmas.
Donal
I think I understand what you are saying.
Perhaps it's as follows....
The physical world of matter and energy has no overlap with the psychic world. Psychic "energies" are not the same as physical matter and physical energy. Hence we can not measure ESP or detect the presence of ghosts using physical EMF meters or their like! Trying to do this is like trying to chase a rainbow. All those ghost-hunters running around houses with EMF meters are wasting their time!
ESP does not obey the "square law" which is obeyed by all normal physical energy fields. Gravity, magnetic and electric fields all have the property of diminishing over distance in exact proportion with the square of the distance involved. ESP on the other hand is as powerful across continents as it is between rooms in the same house. Distance is not a factor. Hence ESP is definitely NOT electromagnetic in nature.
But....
Having said that I do have a few reservations....
Quantum mechanics has a concept of "entanglement" which allows instantaneous communication between two "entangled" sub-atomic particles even at galactic distances. In other words, and in the case of entanglement, distance is not a factor! Entanglement seems to break the conventional laws of space-time. It allows faster-than-light travel.
So this is an interesting and rich area to investigate. I suspect that in order to find a physical/ESP connection, this is perhaps where we should be looking? I don't think it will be as simple as switching on a radio receiver to detect ESP waves!
ESP, PK etc do exist, but we need to use a lot of imagination to figure out the physical link!
Quote from: TvosI think some things like this won't be able to access because of the sacredness and what God has created
Tvos, I have often thought this too. It may simply be that in the Grand Plan there must always be mystery and ambiguity surrounding ESP, life-after-death etc. If these things were assured, then perhaps this knowledge would defeat the whole purpose of our being here, in this physical world, with all it's trials, tests and uncertainties.
Catmeow,
I think God gives us enough clues, a taste of the after-life through trauma, trials, loves, loses, through light and darkness. Still we are trying to find out 'ourselves' if this exists or not. Listening to the NDE cases, patients who are dying can give a better and vivid validation than what science can conjure up by placing electrodes in someones head.
It kinda of reminds me of the movie "Raiders of the lost ark" where towards the end everyone was destroyed by looking at this energy and for the power of greed. When the two who didn't were not destroyed because of their intent for good. There are just some things that are sacred that God won't let us trespass with evil intent. Imagine if everyone could project, manipulate matter, control the world, change time,space, and future. This world is mangled today with pain, suffering, war, economy, governments trying to over throw each other.. add this to the mix - that would definitely be the end of days.
Tvos
Quote from: the voice of silenceCatmeow,
I think God gives us enough clues, a taste of the after-life through trauma, trials, loves, loses, through light and darkness. Still we are trying to find out 'ourselves' if this exists or not. Listening to the NDE cases, patients who are dying can give a better and vivid validation than what science can conjure up by placing electrodes in someones head.
Hi TVOS,
Firstly, I want to say that I enjoy and respect your posts and contributions here :). I just wanted to make a point in regards to this and your previous post, the one regarding Gods plan may not allow for such phenomenon to be discovered fully in any explainable way.
What of people who might believe in the survival of consciousness after death, but not of God as humans visualise him? I find myself in this camp. I used to be Christian, then I went through many beliefs, until my concept of God changed to the idea that the universe just evolves as is. And consciousness has now arisen and is now discovering itself and the universe in which it finds itself (perhaps you could say the universe discovering itself). At a push I might concede that the totality of everything could be 'God', but I think this word is too loaded to be used for such a concept.
Without going to deeply into this, and derailing the topic :), I found our concept of God is just too human-centric to have any true meaning when taking 'everything' into consideration.
Without a God to stop us moving into 'sacred' areas (in quotes as it's a relative concept), I think the possibility is there for us to eventually discover the reasons behind this phenomenon, and astral planes etc if they have an existence outside of ourselves.
Quote from: catmeow
Quantum mechanics has a concept of "entanglement" which allows instantaneous communication between two "entangled" sub-atomic particles even at galactic distances. In other words, and in the case of entanglement, distance is not a factor! Entanglement seems to break the conventional laws of space-time. It allows faster-than-light travel.
So this is an interesting and rich area to investigate. I suspect that in order to find a physical/ESP connection, this is perhaps where we should be looking? I don't think it will be as simple as switching on a radio receiver to detect ESP waves!
ESP, PK etc do exist, but we need to use a lot of imagination to figure out the physical link!
Entanglement is a possibility, but then we don't know what scientific discoveries lie down the road – especially at the speed research is moving now.
One thing to consider is that the physical link might be 'under our nose', but we just can't see it yet. What I mean by this is that the structure and order we perceive in 'reality' is perceived because that's how the brain is wired e.g. we see what we can (and miss an awful lot with standard senses). If we looked at the activity in the brain, I doubt we would ever attach the structured reality we perceive 'external' to ourselves to the patterns of firing neurons and electrical fields we see there. So perhaps the problem with the astral is similar – our brain takes this information from somewhere, but its of a form which might look meaningless to us right now – so its more of a decryption problem (so to speak).
Either way, I truly believe if such phenomenon has a meaning outside of a living human brain (i.e. we can't discount the possibility that the astral is maintained by the existence of organic brains), the fact we can experience it, and come back and report on it suggests there is some interaction between the astral and reality (if there was no interaction, and matter was separate from consciousness, how would consciousness attached to a matter created brain/body etc). Even more so, just yesterday Robert Bruce said he believed astral matter can be materialised into physical matter, and if this is true, there is a definite link there.
MisterJingo,
I understand where you are coming from about "God" as a whole, energy inside and out that spans time/space that lives inside of everything. I don't vision God as a man with a white long beard sitting on a thrown of gold. I see it the first way as I described as "we" are god and everything around us.
It should be interesting in the next generations of how science and medicine advance with the awareness and acceptance of the levels of consciousness outside the body.
tvos
Mister Jingo and Tvos
I actually agree with both of you. Given that the Earth is a tiny planet in a solar system in an unremarkable region of the "outer reaches of the western spiral arm of the Milky Way" which is a galaxy of 2 billion stars in a universe of 100's of billions of galaxies we are certainly only one form of physical life.
Unless all life in the universe is of human form, then it is unlikely that God would also be of human form.
I think you both expressed very clearly two viewpoints which I agree with and which are not necessarily mutually exclusive!
(I may have got the exact numbers wrong!)
I think in regards to the energy body, all lifeforms are "created equal" ; it is their physical body that is different.
I do believe that some form of divine intervention was involved in the creation of man, though... If you look at the differences between human DNA and chimpanzee DNA... The evolution from one to the other is very clear, but the chances that this mutation would happen randomly and to a male and female of the same population, in such a way that they could mate, are probably one to infinity...
It's as if something spliced some DNA around and created us from chimpanzees (or a more primitive version of them). This is the reason we often hear of a "missing link" -- there's just something that is missing between all the other species on earth and us...
According to this way of thinking, God is not human in the physical sense, but I believe that we were given the tools to become gods, to harness the powers of Kundalini, the energy body, etc...
Look at the greys, those Roswell aliens... Don't they look a hell of a lot like they'd have the same chakras/energy bodies as ourselves? If they're real, of course... Perhaps there is a "perfect physical body shape" which gives lifeforms access (physical and psychological) to the full extent of their subtle bodies?
I always wonder, when I speculate about these kinds of things, how far I am from the "truth..." :)
Kiwibonga
I'm really not big on the Theory of Evolution (Darwinism). I don't believe that it can explain the evolution of the human brain. But I'm also less keen on Intelligent Design. Rather I suspect that human evolution is a combination of Darwinian evolution plus intervention of some sort.
Please take a look at this thread:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16101&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=evolution&&start=0
and in particular this post
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16101&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=evolution&&start=13
Apparently Nature magazine published information suggesting that modern humans acquired 223 genes, not vertically via the mechanisms of evolution, but horizontally by a non-evolutionary mechanism. The explanation is that this was a sideways insertion of genetic material from bacteria.
Well if the 223 gene thing is true, they had to think of some way of explaining it, and the bacteria idea is just a guess. Another explanation of course is that someone or something deliberately intervened in our evolution.
The thread contains several links to articles of varying authority discussing this.
Quote from: catmeowApparently Nature magazine published information suggesting that modern humans acquired 223 genes, not vertically via the mechanisms of evolution, but horizontally by a non-evolutionary mechanism. The explanation is that this was a sideways insertion of genetic material from bacteria.
Yeah... This is something I learned in school, they made us compare human and chimpanzee chromosomes -- you can clearly see that it's as if someone decided to take one of the chimpanzee chromosomes, assemble it with the one next to it, and created the first human!
This is something that scares me a bit, as well... What if it's not divine intervention? What if we were designed by an alien race and are somehow being exploited?
If they have mastered DNA manipulation to such an extent that they were able to create a viable, intelligent species... Could they have programmed our brains to be able to control us one day?
Of course we can create lots of paranoid theories... I guess it's better to try and find out from someone who might know :)
I'm going to ask in the channeling thread and see if the Elohim has something interesting to say about it :p
QuoteIf they have mastered DNA manipulation to such an extent that they were able to create a viable, intelligent species... Could they have programmed our brains to be able to control us one day?
Of course we can create lots of paranoid theories... I guess it's better to try and find out from someone who might know :)
I've always wondered why is it that when you apply the 'right' frequency stimulus to the temporal lobe, you can have an 'alien abduction episode'. I just wondered why do humans have that kind of 'video' in our heads. :roll:
the ethnologists view:
it is because of our todays belief system. if you would stimulate the same part in a medieval brain they propably would see angels and ghost, maybe demons. thats how they explain all the sightings of angels and other such stuff and because our belief system changed we see aliens now.
unfortunately we havent anyone with the medieval belief system to try this...
I wonder how long it'll take before recreational drugs are replaced by electric cattle prods :p
QuoteI've always wondered why is it that when you apply the 'right' frequency stimulus to the temporal lobe, you can have an 'alien abduction episode'. I just wondered why do humans have that kind of 'video' in our heads.
You can see it the other way around. I mean the temporal stimuli may work as a permissive factor that makes the abductee able to perceive an ongoing astral contact. Aliens may operate outside of time and space as we know it and when the abductee's brain is triggered by mirco seizures caused by either drugs, OBE-practice or some external application they use that period to let themselves known at the "conscious" level.
QuoteI've always wondered why is it that when you apply the 'right' frequency stimulus to the temporal lobe, you can have an 'alien abduction episode'. I just wondered why do humans have that kind of 'video' in our heads.
Having personally experienced the abduction scenario, I have to agree that it is just the latest fad for fear-generated F2 imagery during a false awakening. In F2, it seems, if you fear it, you will find it.
I believe the latest "grays" were never encountered before their first appearance in an obscure alien movie - after which the look became more and more popular as more media copied and refined it.
This isn't to say that genuine "extra-terrestrial" contact in altered states isn't possible, or even common. I just believe, as usual, that it's important to be able to discern the machinations of your own mind given form in F2 from genuine outside influence.
Yeah I quite agree with you guys, just trying to see this from a wider perspective. Abduction at the physiological level seems to be nothing more than a fear based hallucination triggered by some amigdaloid response. It's pretty inherent to the physiology of the state known as ASP (awareness during sleep paralysis) as well to the phenomena of FOP (feeling of presence). Some thinks it's a result of "intrahemispheric intrusion."
But again, these hypothesises don't exclude each other or the possibility of the interference of an external consciousnesses that try to gain advantage of various physiological processes. As reports of sudden death syndrome, for example, increases with sunspot activity so does UFO sightings coincide with tectonic activity, etc. We are part of the Nature, product of it, and Nature is proud of our shining cities!
I doubt aliens to be purely man made. Not quite sure what type of aliens says from the little million that is supposed to fly out there that they use a mask of some sort to communicate with us. I remember my initial shock when I first saw the grays' face in the television. It triggered a bunch of dream memories.
Some of these "aliens" goes as far to say they are actually us from inside out. Probably abduction is a modern form of shamanic initiation which symbolize humanity's contact with other levels of the universal mind. Hollywood just take its part in the process not generating it. External appearance is not important... It may be the result of an unconscious agreement between both sides. Could be archetypical or hard wired too. But when you thin about who made this hardware these options appear as really the same.
I came across this article, which critiques the media frenzy following Blanke's discovery that OBE-like sensations were induced in (just one) of his epileptic patients, by stimulating the angular gyrus: Similar observations to the ones I made:
http://www.oberf.org/blanke_92602_OBE.htm
there was a saying that "scientists are trying to metaphysics wrong and metaphysics are trying to prove science wrong" or something like that.. just loved that quote.
but what is remarkable is that the scientists who state that OOBE is just a physical chemical firing of some brain function need to really undergo the OBE state themselves. they are the one's always trying to prove us wrong, why don't they get off their butts and find out for themselves instead of being broad minded?
tvos
Quote from: zyzyxWell, I believe the physical is tied into the non-physical. Actually, this is true according to physics. E=mc^2 literally means that energy is accelerated matter.
I too believe that in some unknown way the physical is tied into the non-physical. I wanted to clarify something however. E=mc^2 actually does not imply that energy is accelerated matter. This is a popular misconception brought about probably because the speed of light (C) is included in the formula. What this formula actually states is that if you have a certain quantity of matter and multiply it by 3*10^9, the result is the amount of energy that you will get out of this matter. You don't have to do anything to the matter, just simply convert it to get this energy. Converting it is the tricky part of course. The purest way is to allow equal quantities of matter and antimatter to touch each other. This reaction will cause 100% of the matter to be converted into energy. The second more popular way is through nuclear fission or fusion which involves the nucleus of atoms to be broken apart by other nuclear particles (neutrons) or be combined into larger nuclei by combining neutrons also by bombardment. This actually is only moderately efficient however. A typical nuclear reaction such as from a bomb only converts about 10% of the nuclear matter into energy, the rest is just waste matter. The least efficient way of converting matter into energy is by ordinary burning which is hugely inefficient. I don't know the exact number but it's like .001 % or something ridiculously low like that. For example when you burn a 1 gram piece of paper, you get some energy and about .999999 gram of ash.
I hope you don't mind that I picked on this, but I think it's important to clear up misconceptions cause they can spread like wildfire. :redface: :lol:
Quote from: zyzyx
So, energy is matter.
-Z
Yep!
Quote from: catmeowEven if scientists discover a fool-proof way of producing OBE's by stimulating a certain part of the brain, and let's hope they do, this wouldn't mean that OBE's are hallucinations. It could just as easily mean that scientists discovered a good way of ejecting people from their bodies!
Hey CM, Well put!!!!!!!!
Quote from: MisterJingo
If it is non-physical phenomena, how can the physical have knowledge of it (ie if the physical couldn;t have knowledge of the astral, then this forum wouldn't be here).
I think for the most part, and IMHO, in the scientific community physical is anything that can be detected by instruments or through other "physical" experiments. This would include ordinary matter, all forms of energy(light, heat, etc.), and the 4 known forces (electromagnetic force, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, and gravity). Even though consciousness exists, it's impossible to explain because it doesn't fall under any of these categories. In the future we will probably discover more things that are physical, such as additional forces, or unusual matter which will then give us the ability to turn consciousness into an equation and create computers that are truly conscious, but until then, consciousness is considered "non-physical". Or maybe like Tvos says, it might be forever in the realm of the unknown for some mysterious reason.
Quote from: the voice of silenceCatmeow,
I think God gives us enough clues, a taste of the after-life through trauma, trials, loves, loses, through light and darkness. Still we are trying to find out 'ourselves' if this exists or not. Listening to the NDE cases, patients who are dying can give a better and vivid validation than what science can conjure up by placing electrodes in someones head.
It kinda of reminds me of the movie "Raiders of the lost ark" where towards the end everyone was destroyed by looking at this energy and for the power of greed. When the two who didn't were not destroyed because of their intent for good. There are just some things that are sacred that God won't let us trespass with evil intent. Imagine if everyone could project, manipulate matter, control the world, change time,space, and future. This world is mangled today with pain, suffering, war, economy, governments trying to over throw each other.. add this to the mix - that would definitely be the end of days.
Tvos
Tvos, these are good points. (This is a great thread!!! :grin: ) Sometimes when I just look around and reflect, like when I'm out in the wilderness hiking or something like that, I can't help but think that this world is a strange thing because it's explainable in many ways, and something that might be made by a traditional God would not and could not be explained in any way shape or form and to any degree, it would just exist as a pure thing. For example, a human being wouldn't have a brain and organs, we would just be this blob of jello that just "is" with no constituent parts to make us work. The fact that there is a brain, an imperfect one at that, and organs and man made objects everywhere we look indicate that there is a definite purpose. There are struggles going on everywhere because of the imperfection of this reality and it is our destiny to deal with those imperfections for whatever reason. If we knew it all, there would not be an imperfect world, only a very pure perfect one which would almost have to lack any features at all, just pure empty space and a pure empty consciousness to reside in this pure empty space. No flowers, no music, nothing. It's the imperfection that makes this reality and our familiar form of consciousness possible, and I might add, might also explain why the astral is so imperfect as well.
Quote from: kiwibongaI think in regards to the energy body, all lifeforms are "created equal" ; it is their physical body that is different.
I do believe that some form of divine intervention was involved in the creation of man, though... If you look at the differences between human DNA and chimpanzee DNA... The evolution from one to the other is very clear, but the chances that this mutation would happen randomly and to a male and female of the same population, in such a way that they could mate, are probably one to infinity...
It's as if something spliced some DNA around and created us from chimpanzees (or a more primitive version of them). This is the reason we often hear of a "missing link" -- there's just something that is missing between all the other species on earth and us...
According to this way of thinking, God is not human in the physical sense, but I believe that we were given the tools to become gods, to harness the powers of Kundalini, the energy body, etc...
Look at the greys, those Roswell aliens... Don't they look a hell of a lot like they'd have the same chakras/energy bodies as ourselves? If they're real, of course... Perhaps there is a "perfect physical body shape" which gives lifeforms access (physical and psychological) to the full extent of their subtle bodies?
I always wonder, when I speculate about these kinds of things, how far I am from the "truth..." :)
Kiwibonga, thoughtful post. I too agree there is some sort of "guidance" going on, not a "thinking" guidance as in the traditional image of God looking over us little critters here on Earth, but I do have a strong sense that we are evolving a certain way (into humans for now) because it is necessary to the entire physical and metaphysical universes well being and development. Evolution is happening, but there is a real reason why it's happening.
Quote from: kiwibongaQuote from: catmeowApparently Nature magazine published information suggesting that modern humans acquired 223 genes, not vertically via the mechanisms of evolution, but horizontally by a non-evolutionary mechanism. The explanation is that this was a sideways insertion of genetic material from bacteria.
Yeah... This is something I learned in school, they made us compare human and chimpanzee chromosomes -- you can clearly see that it's as if someone decided to take one of the chimpanzee chromosomes, assemble it with the one next to it, and created the first human!
This is something that scares me a bit, as well... What if it's not divine intervention? What if we were designed by an alien race and are somehow being exploited?
If they have mastered DNA manipulation to such an extent that they were able to create a viable, intelligent species... Could they have programmed our brains to be able to control us one day?
Of course we can create lots of paranoid theories... I guess it's better to try and find out from someone who might know :)
I'm going to ask in the channeling thread and see if the Elohim has something interesting to say about it :p
I don't think you need to worry about the alien theory, because after all, that would imply that a race superior to the race that engineered us would have to exist to engineer the race that engineered us ad infinitum. This is why most people are turned off by the new "intelligent design" debate because it begs the question who created the god that created us?