People in coma - do they OBE?

[Simo]

I am back with  a question-when one is in coma for a long time(or short) does he/she experience OBE?If so is it non stop one?

[Szaxx]

Hi,
According to what I've read they are unfortunately stuck in F22. Those entities active here are non responsive or mope about with no apparent awareness. This may not apply to all.
Doesn't sound promising, unless theres a way to wake them up.
Can't say I've visited this place.

[Simo]

And there is no way to make a  check on the reality,like in dreams?

[zareste]

Depends on the person. Some people have gone to pleasant places while in a coma, others were stuck in hellish places for the years they were out. Other times, the person is mentally conscious and trapped in a pain-wracked body until they die.

I think it depends on what you're mentally attuned to. You probably go to the same area of reality that you'd go to if you died, or a place you'd go if you were asleep. Unfortunately if you don't have a good energy source, your state of mind will be too low to realize you've been displaced.

[Pauli2]

According to the strict Monroe school they should mostly only end up in Focus 22,
be it a world of their own, dreamish, hellish, heavenlish, so in some sense it
could resemble both F 23 or F 25 (but without other people, or other people
as thoughtforms only, with the exception for one or two guides). But findings
by Moen indicate that people might move further, or at least some part of that
person might move to other Focuses, possible beyond ELS.

This may be related to the Aspect of Self concept, which Monroe mentioned little of in
his books, but TMI programs existed already during the 1980ies with H-S exercises
related to Aspects. And one of the TMI Explorer's tape has a variant of Aspect
encounter relayed.

My guess is that the person in coma probably, in most cases, has very poor
awareness, so even if that person has consciousness in F 22, I wouldn't consider
it to be the high quality awareness of an OBE, but more like a kind of dream.

[Simo]

What about those guides you mentioned?Cant they give a hand?

[dreamingod]

Dr. Eben Alexander, neurosurgeon and former skeptic, after recovery from a coma described his coma experiences in hyper-reality multiverse.

Initially he experienced an earthworm limited perspective which then metamorphisised into a hyper-reality of butterflies in beautiful flight.
He felt an expansion of his consciousness ever expanding into the multiverse.

One thing that we will have to let go of is this kind of addiction to simplistic, primitive reductive materialism because there's really no way that I can see a reductive materialist model coming remotely in the right ballpark to explain what we really know about consciousness now.

Coming from a neurosurgeon who, before my coma, thought I was quite certain how the brain and the mind interacted and it was clear to me that there were many things I could do or see done on my patients and it would eliminate consciousness. It was very clear in that realm that the brain gives you consciousness and everything else and when the brain dies there goes consciousness, soul, mind—it's all gone. And it was clear.

Now, having been through my coma, I can tell you that's exactly wrong and that in fact the mind and consciousness are independent of the brain. It's very hard to explain that, certainly if you're limiting yourself to that reductive materialist view.

Initially I thought, "Gosh, it was almost too real to be real." That hyper-reality that people describe, I just wish we could bottle that up and give it to people so they could see what it's like because it is not something that is going to be explained by these little simplistic kind of talking about CO2 and oxygen levels. That just won't work. I promise you that won't work.

That's where I'm coming from because my experience showed me very clearly that incredibly powerful consciousness far beyond what I'm trapped in here in the earthly realm begins to emerge as you get rid of that filtering mechanism of the brain. It is really astonishing. And that is what we need to explain. Thousands or millions of near-death experiencers have talked about this.

---

A well documented case involving a woman, Pam Reynolds had an operation called "standstill" to remove an artery aneurysm in her brain.
The total surgery lasted about 7 hours and the standstill took less than 1 hour.
She was clinically dead because she had no brain activity, but after revival was later able to accurately describe her
'out of body' observations of the operation. This is validated as being quite accurate.

http://www.in5d.com/forum/index.php?topic=2564.msg4299#msg4299

[Pauli2]

. . . she had no brain activity. . .

Highly unlikely unless her brain cells had stopped metbolism and were dead.

[desert-rat]

I would think some for some some people in coma there soul would had left . What about the people that get frozen ? If doctors can fix a body that has died , been frozen and bring it back to life , has its sprite been weighting or will a new spirit have a body to use ?  Maby there are demons weighting for doctors to be able to bring frozen people back to life just to have a body to use . desert rat 

[catmeow]

Highly unlikely unless her brain cells had stopped metbolism and were dead.

Sorry Pauli, I disagree with you. Pam Reynolds body temperature was reduced to 10-15 degrees, her breathing was stopped, her heart was stopped, the blood was drained from her brain, and she was fully instrumented to make sure there was absolutely no brain activity.  There was no recordable electrical activity in her brain according to the sensitive instrumentation used.

Pam Reynolds was placed into a state of clinical death (zero brain activity). As you rightly say, this is not the same as cell death, but according to current medical knowledge, it is impossible to have any form of consciousness when the brain is in this condition. Cell death just means that the process is no longer reversible.

[catmeow]

In answer to the OP's question, dreamingod nailed it. There are quite a few cases on youtube of individuals who went into coma after a life threatening experience. They do describe visits to heaven and hell like places.  Occasionally, I have read or heard of cases where the comatose person was able to travel around the physical world whilst in coma.

[Pauli2]

... she was fully instrumented to make sure there was absolutely no brain activity.
There was no recordable electrical activity in her brain according to the sensitive instrumentation used.

Pam Reynolds was placed into a state of clinical death (zero brain activity).

EEG is not that sensitive, it's quite crude. For example Ph.D. S LaBerge has mentioned
the problems of the crudeness of EEG when measuring sleeping people's brains.

According to Wikipedia on Brain Activity:

"The electric potential generated by single neuron is far too small to be picked up by EEG or MEG."
"...activity from deep sources is more difficult to detect than currents near the skull."
"EEG determines neural activity that occurs below the upper layers of the brain (the cortex) very poorly."

I also highly doubt that _all_ blood was drained, as there always is some blood left.

Some source on the net claims that she was only without blood for 6
minutes, others claim a full hour. :\

[catmeow]

EEG is not that sensitive, it's quite crude. For example Ph.D. S LaBerge has mentioned
the problems of the crudeness of EEG when measuring sleeping people's brains.

According to Wikipedia on Brain Activity:

"The electric potential generated by single neuron is far too small to be picked up by EEG or MEG."
"...activity from deep sources is more difficult to detect than currents near the skull."
"EEG determines neural activity that occurs below the upper layers of the brain (the cortex) very poorly."

I also highly doubt that _all_ blood was drained, as there always is some blood left.

Some source on the net claims that she was only without blood for 6
minutes, others claim a full hour. :\

EEG is actually quite sensitive. I was hooked up to a machine to check for neuropathy. They asked me to sit perfectly still and watch a screen in front of me with a chequered pattern on it. Then they swapped the black and white squares over. This generated a spike over my scalp. I agree that EEG can not detect single neurons firing, but that isn't the point. There was insufficient oxygen and blood in the brain, to support brain activity.

Her brain was COMPLETELY DRAINED of blood. This was necessary to collapse the aneurysm in the basilar artery close to the brain stem. The brain stem is at the bottom of the brain. Blood drains first from the cortex, the outer part of the brain. The stem is the last part to drain. The stem needed to be drained to collapse the aneurysm and remove it.

So we have a brain which is

1. Cooled to 10-15 degrees
2. Completely drained of blood
3. Has no oxygen/blood supply
4. Shows no EEG despite the clicking devices placed in the ears

Do you seriously suggest that this brain can support "brain activity"?

[zareste]

EEG is not that sensitive, it's quite crude. For example Ph.D. S LaBerge has mentioned the problems of the crudeness of EEG when measuring sleeping people's brains.

If you really, really need to believe that she had continuing brain activity and remaining blood, you can exploit a few question marks and make it seem at least plausible that she might have possibly had brain activity that was not picked up and blood that was not being circulated.

Otherwise it's pointless and moot. If there isn't enough brain activity or circulation to be picked up by devices then the body is not functioning and the person is dead. If you've only got two or three neurons firing off then they are probably not doing anything complicated enough to constitute a useful biological process.

[Pauli2]

Her brain was COMPLETELY DRAINED of blood.

Do you seriously suggest that this brain can support "brain activity"?

Sorry to have to point it out, brain or not brain, but Pam's NDE started long
before her blood was drained, at least according to Wikipedia and several
other net sources:

Pam on Wikipedia
Some excerpts on the Pam case

So she had a fully functioning brain at start of her NDE/OBE, more than an
hour before the heart-lung machine was even connected to her...

James Randi must be soooo happy...

[dreamingod]

Consciousness without brain activity: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_news_and_media/consciousness_without_brain_activity-t37660.0.html

According to Walter Russell:
The brain does not think, nor does it know. It is but a storehouse of recorded sensations.
The centering conscious Mind of man's Soul-will alone thinks
by projecting desire for creative expression through the brain machine.
The centering consciousness of man, the PERSON,
transforms information received by the senses into
knowledge to the extent of which he is capable of recognizing
CAUSE in spirit, back of the EFFECT which his senses record.


---
Reality is in consciousness. All is spritual, non-physical, a simulation of light of mind.
Consciousness is not a property of the brain. The brain is virtual, a simulation of the idea of the human brain.
Similarly your body is virtual and can be morphed and dissolved during phasing. I know I've done it.
---

[Xanth]

The current discussion aside... I'll put forth my "belief" on the topic.

What do we do in order to have a projection?  We relinquish our connection to this physical reality.  We do this every night when we fall asleep, we just aren't usually aware of it happening at that time.  We OBE all the time... I'd actually go as far as saying this physical reality is our consciousness projecting into it.  It's just a much more stable projection due to the collectively fueled nature of the reality.  In a Coma, we've got that disconnect forcibly happening.

Do people in Coma's Project (obe)?
I don't see why not... you'd definitely be having unconsciously aware dreams.  Maybe not 24/7, but at the very least you would from time to time.
The trick would be to recognize when you're doing that.  It would be like waking up within the dream, but having it be as stable a reality as this physical reality.  Not stable as in you'd experience the same thing from one moment to the next, but stable as in you wouldn't be able to leave it. 

Anyway... continue your discussion, I just thought I'd throw my two cents in.

[catmeow]

Sorry to have to point it out, brain or not brain, but Pam's NDE started long
before her blood was drained, at least according to Wikipedia and several
other net sources:

You are indeed correct. After I posted last night I researched the case more thoroughly. Her operation lasted about 7 hours. The veridical elements she reported (sound and appearance of the saw, appearance of toolbox, conversation of nurse) occurred a couple of hours into the operation whilst she was normally anaesthetized, but well before the brain was drained of blood, and the cortex and brainstem flat lined.

She was drained of blood and brainstem dead a full hour or so after she made the veridical observations. She did not make any observations, veridical or otherwise, of any procedures or incidents which took place whilst she was brainstem dead. So the case does not prove that consciousness can take place when a brain is drained of blood and brainstem dead.

However, my initial disagreement with you was regarding the possibility of a fully drained brain being able to support "brain activity". I say no, you say yes (?). I still say no. But it's all a bit irrelevant now.

It is surprising that the surgeon, Dr Spetzler, gave what appears to be factually inaccurate statements in a BBC documentary. He states:

"At that stage in the operation nobody can observe, hear, in that state, and I find it inconceivable that your normal senses of hearing, let alone the fact that she had clicking modules in each ear, that there was any way that she could hear those through normal auditory pathways."

Also:

"I don't have an explanation for it. I don't know how its possible to happen, considering the physiological state she's in."

Of course Dr Spetzler was actually present throughout the operation. He is best placed to comment on what happened, perhaps there are details which he is cognizant of which haven't been reported accurately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osfIY4B3y1U&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.neardeath.woerlee.org/pam-reynolds-near-death-experience.php

[Pauli2]

It is surprising that the surgeon, Dr Spetzler, gave what appears to be factually
inaccurate statements in a BBC documentary.

Internet sources seem to indicate that Pam was participating in an NDE study
well before the surgery, perhaps the surgeon was involved too... ?

[catmeow]

Internet sources seem to indicate that Pam was participating in an NDE study
well before the surgery, perhaps the surgeon was involved too... ?

Yes, that's a possibility.  It's also possible that he was quoted out of context, and when he saw the finished documentary he blew his top. In the second quote we have no idea exactly what he is referring to. It could easily be misrepresented. I suspect he was perhaps just rambling a bit and the most controversial bits were cherry picked and perhaps used slightly out of context.

[dreamingod]

International Association For Near-Death Studies supports continuity of consciousness during death.

NEUROPHYSIOLOGY IN CARDIAC ARREST

We know that patients with cardiac arrest are unconscious within seconds.
Anoxia causes loss of function of our cell systems.
In cardiac arrest global anoxia of the brain occurs within seconds. Timely and adequate CPR reverses this functional loss of the brain, because definitive damage of the brain cells, resulting in cell death, has been prevented. Long lasting anoxia, caused by cessation of blood flow to the brain for more than 5-10 minutes, results in irreversible damage and extensive cell death in the brain. This is called brain death, and most patients will ultimately die.

From these studies we know that in our prospective study1 as well as in the other studies2,3 of patients who have been clinically dead (VF on the ECG), total lack of electric activity of the cortex of the brain (flat EEG) must have been the only possibility, but also the abolition of brain-stem activity, such as the loss of the corneal reflex, fixed and dilated pupils, and the loss of the gag reflex, is a clinical finding in those patients. However, patients with an NDE can report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, and memory from early childhood was possible, as well as perception from a position out and above their "dead" body. Because of the occasional and verifiable out-of-body experiences, like the one involving the dentures in our study,1 we know that the NDE must happen during the period of unconsciousness, and not in the first or last seconds of this period. There is also a well documented report of a patient with constant registration of the EEG during surgery for an gigantic aneurysm at the base of the brain, operated with a body temperature between 10 and 15 degrees Celsius. She was connected to a heart-lung machine, with VF, with all blood drained from her head, with a flat line EEG, with clicking devices in both ears, with eyes taped shut, and this patient experienced an NDE with an out-of-body experience, and all details she perceived and heard could later be verified.15

So we have to conclude that NDE in our study,1 as well as in the American2 and the British study,3 was experienced during a transient functional loss of all functions of the cortex and of the brainstem. How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death, with a flat EEG? Such a brain would be roughly analogous to a computer with its power source unplugged and its circuits detached. It couldn't hallucinate; it couldn't do anything at all. As stated before, up to the present it has generally been assumed that consciousness and memories are localized inside the brain, that the brain produces them. According to this unproven concept, consciousness and memories ought to vanish with physical death, and necessary also during clinical death or brain death. However, during an NDE patients experience the continuity of their consciousness with the possibility of perception outside and above one's lifeless body. Consciousness can be experienced in another dimension without our conventional body-linked concept of time and space, where all past, present and future events exist and can be observed simultaneously and instantaneously (non-locality). In the other dimension, one can be connected with the personal memories and fields of consciousness of oneself as well as others, including deceased relatives (universal interconnectedness). And the conscious return into one's body can be experienced, together with the feeling of bodily limitation, and also sometimes the awareness of the loss of universal wisdom and love they had experienced during their NDE.

http://iands.org/research/important-research-articles/43-dr-pim-van-lommel-md-continuity-of-consciousness.html?start=4


Attempts to Understand Cardiac Arrest NDEs

The first point is that signs of cardiac arrest are the same as clinical death. There is no detectable cardiac output, no respiratory effort, and brainstem reflexes are absent. If you are in this state and I put a tube down your throat, you will not cough. You will have dilated pupils. Your blood pressure has fallen to zero. You are, in fact, clinically dead. Even if I start cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), I cannot get your blood pressure any higher than 30 millimeters of mercury, and this is not going to produce an adequate blood flow to your brain.


The height of the line above the x axis shows the intensity of consciousness, and the squiggly line represents the level of consciousness. When the heart stops, the line starts to dip, and consciousness is lost. So you are going along conscious, your heart stops, and there is a very quick descent into unconsciousness. Those of you who have ever fainted will agree that when you faint you lose consciousness very quickly. So you lose consciousness, then you are unconscious, and then the heart restarts, so science says the NDE cannot occur while you are unconsciousness; that is the pink area in the diagram. Now, as you slowly regain consciousness, the slow recovery is all confusional, so the NDE cannot occur there.

So then, as far as science is concerned, the NDE cannot occur at the point the heart stops, it cannot occur at any point during the period of unconsciousness, and it is unlikely to occur at the point of confusional arousal, because it is not typical of that level of consciousness; and if it occurred after recovery, the NDErs would say it occurred after recovery, because they know they have recovered. So there are real difficulties in accepting that the NDE happens when the NDErs say it happens: during unconsciousness. So are you beginning to feel the significance of the timing of the NDE both for neuroscience as well as for our understanding of the NDE?

http://iands.org/research/important-research-articles/42-dr-peter-fenwick-md-science-and-spirituality.html?start=3


Focusing In On the Near-Death Out-of-Body Experience

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the OBE, and so the NDE, occurs during unconsciousness. There is also anecdotal evidence that it may be veridical. Sabom in 1982 found that some of his research participants gave correct accounts of resuscitation procedures, suggesting that the NDE occurs when the brain is ''down.''

Now, Major Scull is very clear that his OBE happened during his cardiac arrest.

http://iands.org/research/important-research-articles/42-dr-peter-fenwick-md-science-and-spirituality.html?start=4


CONCLUSION

ccording to our concept, grounded on the reported aspects of consciousness experienced during cardiac arrest, we can conclude that our consciousness could be based on fields of information, consisting of waves, and that it originates in the phase-space. During cardiac arrest, the functioning of the brain and of other cells in our body stops because of anoxia. The electromagnetic fields of our neurons and other cells disappear, and the possibility of resonance, the interface between consciousness and physical body, is interrupted.

Such understanding fundamentally changes one's opinion about death, because of the almost unavoidable conclusion that at the time of physical death consciousness will continue to be experienced in another dimension, in an invisible and immaterial world, the phase-space, in which all past, present and future is enclosed. Research on NDE cannot give us the irrefutable scientific proof of this conclusion, because people with an NDE did not quite die, but they all were very, very close to death, without a functioning brain.

The conclusion that consciousness can be experienced independently of brain function might well induce a huge change in the scientific paradigm in western medicine, and could have practical implications in actual medical and ethical problems such as the care for comatose or dying patients, euthanasia, abortion, and the removal of organs for transplantation from somebody in the dying process with a beating heart in a warm body but a diagnosis of brain death.

There are still more questions than answers, but, based on the aforementioned theoretical aspects of the obviously experienced continuity of our consciousness, we finally should consider the possibility that death, like birth, may well be a mere passing from one state of consciousness to another.

http://iands.org/research/important-research-articles/43-dr-pim-van-lommel-md-continuity-of-consciousness.html?start=9

[squeeze321]

I was in a diabetic coma for 4 days way back in 1989, and I remember it as if it happened yesterday. I did not see my body, after all my body was the last thing I wanted to be near at the time because I had been in a lot of pain for some time before hand. The first memory I have of the experience was of standing on a gravel path on a cross roads over looking a massive meadow all I could see was meadow and sky, the sun and the clouds it was very peaceful and beautiful and then I remember thinking "I can breath". The next thing I remember was I was floating through the clouds, there was just cobalt blue sky with a carpet of clouds as far as my eye could see and it was an amazing experience. I remember feeling very peaceful and knowing that I was going to live and feeling very overjoyed at that.

So now, many years later I had another stressful experience which triggered an OBE which I can now have at will. Infact I don't know how on earth I've managed to have OBEs like I do but they are pretty amazing!

The NDE and the OBEs I have all the time have one major thing in common and that is they have shown me nature in abundance, other than that I am still seeking insights and answers as to why I have them, though I consider myself a very lucky person indeed.

[Xanth]

I was in a diabetic coma for 4 days way back in 1989, and I remember it as if it happened yesterday. I did not see my body, after all my body was the last thing I wanted to be near at the time because I had been in a lot of pain for some time before hand. The first memory I have of the experience was of standing on a gravel path on a cross roads over looking a massive meadow all I could see was meadow and sky, the sun and the clouds it was very peaceful and beautiful and then I remember thinking "I can breath". The next thing I remember was I was floating through the clouds, there was just cobalt blue sky with a carpet of clouds as far as my eye could see and it was an amazing experience. I remember feeling very peaceful and knowing that I was going to live and feeling very overjoyed at that.

That's very similar to an astral projection I had.
http://unlimitedboundaries.ca/2010/10/11/morning-projection-october-11-2010/
I call this one my "Grassy Fields" experience.  LoL 
Due to it being exactly what you said.

[Contenteo]

Yes,

They seem to be in a hellish state/limbo state. F22 or if very deep. F23.

Cheers,
Contenteo

[catmeow]

I was in a diabetic coma for 4 days way back in 1989, and I remember it as if it happened yesterday. I did not see my body, after all my body was the last thing I wanted to be near at the time because I had been in a lot of pain for some time before hand. The first memory I have of the experience was of standing on a gravel path on a cross roads over looking a massive meadow all I could see was meadow and sky, the sun and the clouds it was very peaceful and beautiful and then I remember thinking "I can breath". The next thing I remember was I was floating through the clouds, there was just cobalt blue sky with a carpet of clouds as far as my eye could see and it was an amazing experience. I remember feeling very peaceful and knowing that I was going to live and feeling very overjoyed at that.

Hi squeeze and welcome. That sounds like a great experience. Would you say this experience was more "real" than physical life, or dream-like or just "normal" feeling?  And did you have any of the mystical type elements we hear about often in NDEs? Would you consider the experience to be "real"? Thanks!