please explain this illogical gap in obe theory

[shaman]

Whether you believe in OBE or do not believe in OBE there is the same kind of questions with NDE (near death experience). A recent scientific study has been published in the journal of medecine The Lancet about NDE in the Netherlands. Their main finding is that it is not clear where consciousness takes place. They seem to agree that consciousness can be "outside" the physical body and still have perception of the physical world. We are used to perceive the world through our 5 senses, so while in a dream, or while OBE it is normal that we continue to "interpret" what happens through these 5 senses the same way we did all our life. If you sincerely believe that OBE is just dream and that the theory is not self consistent, then I understand you, but you have either to chose that OBE is not real or that we just don't have an answer for everything. How can we accept the notion of particle AND wave at the same time for the same entities such as the photon, the electron? etc... and these are scientifically proven theories of quantum physics. We cannot decide whether a photon is just a quantum of light (particles) or an electromagnetic wave with probabilities to be found here or there. These are very inconsistent and paradoxal situation for our "brain", eventhough we have been able to create these theories... So here also we might say, that there is a paradoxal situation. It does not mean everything is wrong, but just that WE have limitation in our understanding and representing of the physical world with the laws of physics. HOw about now that the point of consciousness is not a point but rather a wave-like pattern ineracting with all around? and making waves interfering with their own reflection as they bounce off object? How would that work for a theory of consciousness? We are unable to grasp what the physical world really is, how can we do better with consciousness? What if we had quantum effects and junctions in our brain at the neurone connections (synapses)? What would that imply if I know that the electron on that synapse has a probability  of state to be also somewhere else (on the moon for example) and that in quantum physics this has important consequence? For example the probability that an electron can pass through a solid (potential) wall, is analog to the probability that a ping pong ball would "escape" from a safe. For the ping pong ball this probability is so low that it take an infinite time to happen, but for an electron it is high enough that the electron can escape (the tunneling effect) and that is what make the transistor so particular in all the elctronics we are using today. So what if it is the same in our brain with consciousness? We don't agree that a ping pong ball would escape out of a safe, but we agree that our computer works because of that...? First one has to explain me about the real physical world and the about the consciousness and then about their interaction for me to try and understand what is hapening. In the meanwhile I do not see why this paradoxal situation is more pardoxal than the rest of the world. In fact we should put the whole world and ourselves into question first.

[Tombo]

possible explanation: what you perceive in the astral is coupled with your physical life. Imagine you could perceive with a additional sense it would be impossible for you to download that information into your brain, cause it's not build to process that data. So it might be impossible to remember an experience from the astral that is so diffrent.

[PeacefulWarrior]

...and you still have a body, just not the kind of body you are used to having.  When you begin to try to understand the OBE, you must reconsider everything.[]

[Kazbadan]

For Shaman: can you explain that one of the ball in the safe. How can it escape from the safe? How can you explain that?
I´m asking this because i have interest in science, and i know that what you sayed is related to quantum physics (and i like that science).

thanks

[Tombo]

hello kazbadan. In quantum physics particles can be described as probability functions. So you can never say what the exact location of an electron is, just the probability to find it in a certain place. So if you have a membran that an electron can not pass there's still a probability to find it on the other side of it since the probability function streches onto the other side. So in very rare cases the electron passes the membran = tunnel effect.
Since all objects consist of particles every object has a probability funktion as well. so if you have a tennis ball in a safe, there's a, although extremly low, probability that the whole ball tunnels tru the safe wall!
sry my english isn't great as well! Tom

[wojjy]

I have had some lucid dreams though I never had a proper obe so I am basing on what I've red. And I've red that in obe one can see, hear, fell and smell. And that in obe one does not have any body or senses but one is a point of consciousness or some energy. But how are this two statements possible at once? It is obvious that our abilities to see, hear etc. are nothing ultimate but are quite random and limited creations of a long physical evolution process. And in order to have them we must have extremely complicated senses, brain and there must be a medium which we will perceive. And it's all pretty solid and stable system made of stable physical matter.
So how is that possible that we have the same perception in obe where we have no body, no senses and the world is fluid? Please do not answer that while in obe we have an absolute mind which is powerful and which perceive absolute reality and so on because if it was powerful there would be no problem. I am referring rather to it's limitations.
Like : there is no direct/ultimate perception – there is just a copy of physical perception
(so there must be some complex system to impose that, how does it relate to point of consciousness theory that is not complex at all as far as I can see)
And it really makes me wonder how and why not to mention that it all sounds as obe happened only inside the physical brain.