Opening lower realms when a bad death happens?

[david14433]

Warning these are very advanced concepts and are not for newbies.

I am posing this here in order to get a little feedback. Since I still think a lot about why is it that APers have a hard time believing stories like Howards. The only things I want to address here is can a terrible death or a death that ripens our karma open up lower realms when we enter the afterlife? Certainly our very spirits are connected to our bodies. Eg molecules dramatically changing consciousness.

OK so recently I saw this interview and when I started talking to a friend I ended up getting into all kinds of stuff about opening up hells at the end of life. If any of you astral projectors have not heard of Howard Storms experience you should seriously check it out. I know Jesus is in it but that does not matter to me. I am not a christian, but am a universalist, I am not trying to convert anyone. I do strongly believe in AP in fact I have APed before when I was sick. So please check out Howards interview. He was a successful professor, artist, and stanch atheist, until he died.

Howard Storm - Near-Death Experience & Awakening (The Moore Show)
http://youtu.be/yKemocF4PNE

[Edit: BTW I slightly modifed a few parts here.]

So these are some of the things I said and I want your opinion.

Me: "Let me say that I think it might be possible that when Howard died in the hospital, it was very very painful since stomach acid went into his body. So that acid would have done some damage to his spirit perhaps, and if it did, it would have ripened some karmic fruit. Meditators talk about ripening the friut of your karma, by fasting for instance. Psychedelics can ripen certain karmic energies. Earth is a good place to ripen your karmic friut since it's stable more here in the physical. But the astral IMO is not a good place to do that, especially if your in the lower reals, since you are not as well protected IMO. Here we have a lot of protections for someone like Howard. Except the if they keep him suffering for years at the end of life. So my thought is that he might have opened up the doors for the evil beings since he ripened some really bad karma. Can't say that for sure. But that's a real possibility. So for instance the way Howard described his NDE, he really really seemed like he was in the astral, more specially the real time zone when he first exited his body. And no astral projectors have ever talked about something like that. Though if they got too scarred they would instantly go back to their body. So we must be very careful at the time of death IMO. And if possible at the time of birth. They are some of the most delicate times for our spirits IMO. I've read about karmic birth trauma. Well IMO we can get karmic death trauma too. This is why we need to stop torturing people at the end of life, by needlessly keeping them alive. I have little doubt that many of those that suffer at the end of life, and open a hell realm realms on earth at the end life at death have a high risk of carrying that over into the afterlife. This is why Buddhists meditate at the time of death. In fact they practice death meditation in order to help them get a better birth at death. Or IMO go to a higher realm at death."

Friend: "It still doesn't really make sense that you could live your whole life building up good karma and if you die in a bad way then you may put yourself in a bad place without even knowing it. I know that is hypothetical but still possible in what your describing. Howard even said himself that where he was he would never wish upon anyone. So it seems that the only people who will have real control are people who can work out their karma before or right after they die. Basically that leaves the meditation religions and half of them don't even believe in the afterlife. I know we talked about this before but I'm still having trouble with this topic."

Me: "I think it's quite possible that when I die I will go directly into another body, IDK. And I think the most likely thing is that both are true. Both astral projection and reincarnation are possibilities at the end of life. I already know that AP true, but reincarnation is still a bit iffy. Though I know many traditional meditators believe that we reincarnate directly after we die. What if an OBE is really just another form of reincarnation? That is what I seem to remember the guys at astral pulse saying. I mean we have had materializations of people. Jesus being one of them. We have all heard of other materializations happening. Humans are obviously not advanced enough for it, so we have to rely on a fetus to come back to the physical and evolve. We can get liberated into the astral at death, or if we are stuck to our bodies, and certain biochemical processes happen. and our spirits are in the right condition, that might be the perfect condition that would allow us to directly go into another reincarnation. I am thinking it would be similar to remote viewing. In that your consciousness can leave it's body without astral projecting. It would have to be a very primitive form of remote viewing. So Oh my gosh. What if someone remote viewed into a fetus and stayed there. LOL My mind is crazy. But that allows be to think dynamically in overarching ideas. This is something I have not talked about much. Probably because NDE's and AP get the most attention in the west afterlife. I know I saw Eben talk with the Dali Lama, and others about his experience. Funny seeing Eben dressed up like he had a costume on, talking about his NDE to some Buddhists.   I remember talking about AP on a real formal Buddhist forum and they seemed like they didn't know what I was talking about. It's like they stay in the box, and don't know that one doesn't have to do Buddhist practices to AP.​ Or would be very skeptical."

Me: "Also another piece of anecdotal evidence about opening hell at the end of life is that APers hardly never go to hell realms, supposedly because they are very healthy. So why is it that in NDE's people go to hell more often? Simple, I already answered it. NDEers were likely sick, and got compromised bodies, and spirits, and thus making them vulnerable to opening hells. This is not rocket science, but common sense IMO. This is all coming together now. I also thought of something else to support this but I forgot it. If your feelings manifest in the afterlife then it's a no brainer that you could easily be vulnerable to hellish experiences. Since emotions and feelings definitely can have a directly effect on your experience in the astral. Not always, but if you open up a certain realms around death, then yes. I've been their I've lived it. Only I didn't leave my body. Well there was one time while I was schizophrenic I definitely felt like I did, leave my body. But I didn't fully leave my body though like Howard did. I swear it felt like I left and it felt like I even entered my body when it was done. It was a hellish experience that was of low consciousness. If you want I will tell you more. The only thing that keeps us from going crazy at hospitals and hospice centers is all the medication were givin. But IMO most of the time it's not enough to keep your dignity. At least a long time ago when you died, it was quick. LOL

The other thing that supports this idea is that the Buddha (Siddhārtha Gautama) said that a good person could go to a hell, and a bad person could go to the upper realms. But he said that it mostly depends on the karma. So if you had a lot of bad karma and you lived a good life you could go to hell. I think the most obvious thing is what state is your mind and whole BODY is in just before death.

Oh yeah this is what I was thinking of. I think a good way to tell might be if you compared traumatic deaths vs peaceful or relatively peaceful deaths. Most deaths are far from peaceful these days I am guessing. And from that you should be able to tell somewhat if there is some truth to this. From what I remember so far, this seems like it might be the case. Eben didn't die traumatically, perhaps since he was in a comma. Maybe that is not the best way to tell. I also think the age of the person might matter then too. I am more sure now more than ever, that this has some kind of real sway at the time of death. Also it might be that if you die from a heart attack, from a really bad heart attack that is painful that it would not matter as long as your relatively young with the rest of your body and nerves doing fine. Just as long at the rest of your body, and mind is relatively well. IMO it would make sense that if the whole body and especially nerves was in complete breakdown, with much suffering, and a lot of energy with it, that this would be the worst state to be in. So not only do you have the energy to make hells but you would also be manifesting not only a breakdown of your body, but your spirit with consciousness."

Me "BTW I remember reading of a women that said that she astral projected into people before. Thus similar to remote viewing into a fetus. I would imagine a fetus would be perfect for accepted a consciousness into it's body. It's tantalizing what is possible."

Thoughts please. BTW I want to know if these things have been thought of by you advanced AP'ers yet here?

Thanks, peace

[Lionheart]

Thoughts please. BTW I want to know if these things have been thought of by you advanced AP'ers yet here?

Nope! 

You have a lot of Belief System stuff here. Once you learn to AP yourself, you will find that things are much different than you are told.

[Szaxx]

The absolute basics are,
Thoughts manifest.
Fear is primal.
This physical existance is the alpha state.
Add instinct and reflex to this then the resultant hypothesis is displayed as in the original post.
Reference to people with no experiences in our art.
It's written everywhere as posed above and your frame of mind at your termination will have some influence to that experienced. What you believe is secondary to the initial scenes and if the fear factor is in runaway mode, the result is not too pleasant. Lets not forget the religious indoctrination.

Those in the know,
That time will be observed as a natural transformation. It bears no relation to fearfulness generated in the physical.
I see it as alive, blackness then back home. Transformation complete.

[Mark Alexander]

Some interesting thoughts and ideas here. 

A person's mental and emotional state at the time of projection--whether physical death is involved or not--can certainly have an impact on where they initially end up.  Certainly, the suffering of the physical body can have an affect on this as well, since said suffering would be an experience of the soul operating that body.  As for the 'karmic fruit' concept, in all of my OOBEs I've not had any indication that karma exists beyond our individual or collective belief in it. 

My grandfather had a long and drawn out death process.  He was never a very spiritual or even religious person, though he did have some negative tendencies.  Some time after his physical death, I was drawn to him in the astral, where i found him in a duplicate of the house he lived in physically.  He was in a constant state of suffering here, repeatedly living out the process of dying, and quite unaware of his condition.  After a bit of effort I was able to 'snap him out of it' and show him the way to a more productive non-physical experience. 

The human life can be a confusing one.  Many people have lives filled with pain, fear and despair.  They can lose touch with who they really are and can often identify with their bodies.  When those bodies die, many still keep that identification, or are caught up in all the fears and dramas of being human, and are thus drawn to realms that match their emotional and mental state.  Some are not even aware that the body has died.  None of this is permanent, as existence is an ever-changing and evolving thing.

[david14433]

Did any of you actually watch the video? Or already know the details of his experience? Remember I don't care that he saw Jesus. I am not a christian. I just used Howard since he is a good example that I can think of right now for those that have died went to hell and came back. There have been quite a few others where Jesus was not involved.

I think  Mark Alexander said it best. " Many people have lives filled with pain, fear and despair.  They can lose touch with who they really are and can often identify with their bodies.  When those bodies die, many still keep that identification, or are caught up in all the fears and dramas of being human, and are thus drawn to realms that match their emotional and mental state."

So who were these negative entities. That is very very simple IMO. They were probably born in the ghetto, or a place of war, and grew up hardcore gang bangers or thugs of some sort. And then go to prison, but they keep on trying to derive pleasure from pain, and suffering on others.  Or perhaps they went totally crazy in prison. Perhaps they were a sociopath. And they degraded so so much in prison that their was no way that they could relate to normal happy people. Instead they turned evil on the inside. The outside could kind of cope but deep down all they wanted to to hurt others. BTW years and years ago there use to be extremely terrible people that use to live on earth. That use to torment their enemies the the worse ways imaginable. They use to make fun of you if you were the one suffering. They would laugh. Right now is one of the times of the least amount of violence according to Steven Pinker. And they were drawn to the lower realms after death, but the only way they can survive was to go to the surface for a little, and find some pray to keep their selfish ego, and desires going. Very few of them could actually do this. Out of the hundreds of them in that realm, maybe only 2-4 that made it to the real time zone where Howard was. And they might have smelled/sensed Howards fear and pain which acted as a guide to the real time zone. So they were drawn to him. And once Howard died, Howard was not prepared and didn't have the discernment to not be fooled by them. that was they they kept their distance from Howard since they didn't want Howard to see their nasty faces. Just like how some people that go to to another country and get robbed or even duped into prostitution, kidnapped, or some other really nasty thing, that they they like to pray on tourists for. Howard thought he was still in a hospital when he died, so he trusted them at first. Howard was the victim. Howard was deceived. How many of those that were already in such a terrible place might have been drawn there themselves out of their own will. Or terrible life here, I would guess. But it's a no brainier. If higher realms exist for pleasure and light then lower realms must exist for darkness and suffering. As the saying goes: "As above, so bellow." But you guys are terrible at reconciling anything beyond your own experience it seems. I doubt I am wrong since none of you will debate me probably. And if you don't seriously address these things, then I am thinking that you are just sweeping up things that you don't want to hear under the rug while only accepting your version of the afterlife. We have LOTS of NDE's where people do end up in a real hell realm. Whether it was created by the person or co-created by the person and others in the hell realm is of little difference to me. All I want you guys to do is seriously address these ideas. Otherwise IMO you are picking and choosing what you want reality to be like. I'm just asking you to look at all the evidence, use common sense, and lets talks about it in a serious matter.

Now I don't think that Howard created such an experience in the afterlife. Many of you and those that study NDEs will say that's impossible but certainly there are innocent people that suffer on earth, so why would the lower realms be any different? As Howard said he could have never had conceived of such a place. So just as people can get duped here on earth so can they get duped in the lower realms.

Peace.

[Lionheart]

 For every story of Fear and Despair that you find, you can find many more stories of Love and light.

That which you put your focus on, you shall find.

This is one guy's perception of what occurred, not the majority of cases I have read or listened to.

The one thing you don't seem to realize is you are learning in areas like this as well. I believe that this Hell isn't a place of fire and brimstone, it's more of a personal thing, where you experience your own personal hell. You fight your own Demons there. But you learn from it as well. Sometimes when we do Retrievals we find ourselves right in the middle of the person's personal hell and have to show them that there is something else that lies beyond it. But in the end, they are the ones that have to choose to leave it.

How did this change Howard's life? Is he a better man for it? Did it help him to evolve his consciousness?

You want to focus on what's negative here, I wish to see the positive!  

[soarin12]

Howard said himself that where he was he would never wish on anyone, but he also said that he knew he needed to experience it.  Sometimes we need to experience the negative so we can appreciate the positive and make necessary changes to our life.  IMO we should not worry about any of this stuff and just trust the process.  You experience what you need to for your own growth.  If you can learn to drop fear and live in love, there won't be need for the hellish experience.  Also never underestimate the power of asking for help.  When I get into a rough spot that I can't handle on my own yet in my APs (or in life for that matter) I ask for help and have a little faith that I'll receive it.--Just like Howard did.--Always works.  You are being looked after so do not fear!

[david14433]

   Lionheart I am very very well aware that most NDE's are positive experiences, and few of them end up in hell. And some that end up in hell came soon call out to God/light or whatever and go to the light.    For all the times I think of hell, I think of the light much more, and the positive much more. I am a open minded, and am not suck in fear based belief systems.  I am way past that. And I am well aware that most people that leave their bodies don't end up in hells, especially hells of great suffering.

But this still begs the question for APers and NDEers to reconcile IMO. I know Howards is kind of usual. Since he didn't end up in the real time zone right at death. Yet he was still duped into going into such an evil place. Just like how it might happen on earth. So I just want to try to reconcile this with you guys here and myself. I think the only way we can truly do that is if we can come to a real agreement or work out the differences. I am looking for a technical debate if we can do that.

Can you guys just acknowledge that there are dark hells were people can greatly suffer. If we can get past that, I think that would clear up a lot. If not we will have to go through the technicalities to help reconcile NDEs and APs.

Peace.

[david14433]

BTW lionheart Howards story did turn out to be a good positive story of love.

Peace.

[Szaxx]

I've not had time to watch the link yet but will do.
Re the question recently posed.
The Badlands exist. They would fall under the category of Hell. There's also many of these places too. Most are filled with ' unrepentant souls' the contents of their minds inflicting effects upon each other. Deeper into these Hells is where you don't want to visit. If you have the ability to reach these places close off your mind. What you feel is distressing to say the least.
These are where I spent around 3 years learning the hard way.
It's almost a duty to serve the greater good. I've done retrievals for decades and been almost wiped out of physical existance more than once. I can relate to much of what you say but be more tactful in your words. The instant ego steps in the info gets sparse.
It's a sensitive subject as we have young members too.
The nearest scene created by mankind is in the film Constantine. This depicted scenery is not anywhere near the lowest planes to label them.
It would be interesting to know more of the purpose of your question. You seek info and there's usually a good reason for it.

[Lionheart]

If we can get past that, I think that would clear up a lot. If not we will have to go through the technicalities to help reconcile NDEs and APs.

Why do we need to help people "reconcile" their NDEs and APs?  The meaning of their journey is personal. It is about them, not us.

We could only give them our opinion on what's going on, our own perception of it, but they are the one that have to learn the lesson and realize the message.

On this Forum we like to teach people how to AP, but what they experience is their own personal journeys.

There's no way that we can explain away 100% why something happened to them or where/why they went where they did. We can only explain the things that occur like Sleep Paralysis, etc. Those are the things and "sign posts" that they saw and felt during the "shift".

[Lookedynamixhales]

Lmao its hard enough experienceing it yourself and making sense of it let alone trying to help someone else conclude their experience