Reincarnation, time and space....

[Aquarious]

I think a lot of energy has been put into a recent thread (suicide) and it seems to be getting a bit tasteless, especially when people can't be bothered to read long posts! Anyway if the guy wants to waste his life, that's his selfish choice, there are people in poverty and people with life threatening illnesses and disabilities that would love to be in his position, he's obviously too selfabsorbed and ungrateful for the spark of life he's been given!  So I have some questions for serious people about reincarnation and life after death.

Some of you guys say that we have been put here for a reason and if we don't accomplish a specific goal, our higher self has set out to achieve... we willl reincarnate again to see if we can be tested or learn from that experience. For example, someone said that our soul is like a jellifsh and on this earth we are one of its tenticles (yes I said tenticles!) with each tenticle being a part of the souls personality. But what would be the point of that? Does that mean all souls are born (at the time as the big bang) with equal, negative parts of their personality that they have to put right?

And also there's supposed to be no sence of time and space in the non physical world so does that mean that someone that died in 2006 could be reincarnated into the 15th century or born in 1846 or whenever... Or could someone that dies now be reincarnated into the year 4000? If so, why do you never hear about future life regression?

The whole time and space thing is very hard to get my head around... If there is no sence of time, the soul can experience all it wants immediatly, so at the same time that it's born, it would have experinced everything that is needed to be completely fullfilled and be at one with the universe (If that's the aim). Even if some souls have to reincarnate aspects of their personality (their tenticles) more times than other souls, the souls will all reach the same stage eventually and will have all been able to reincarnate their tenticles as many times as needed in order to complete their goal. If this is the case... a cold blooded murderer or a peodaphile will be reincarnated as many times as it takes to learn from their experience and evetually reach the personality of... i don't know... a nun. But it doesn't really mattter how many times the soul has to reincarnate itself to reach that personality because their is no sence of time in the spirtual world so it will already be at the same stage of evolution as a nun (Or anyother stereotypical "good" person). Again what's the point?

So what I'm trying to say is... if reincarnation is a fact and there is no sence of time in the spirtual world, we will all go to heaven or be at one with the universe or go to a higher place or whatever you believe is the final chapter. Everyones soul should should be there because there will be no count down to judgement (as there is no time).  The soul would have reincarnated it's tenticles as many times as is needed to put right anything that it hasn't learned from...

Sorry If my post was a bit confusing, but I'd really like to hear what people that believe in reincarnation have to say about the points I've raised... Any response is much appreciated...       

[Pasco]

I'd suggest you to look into Mahayana Buddhism, but perhaps that's a suggestion best reserved for the religion section.

[James S]

There's nothing religious about reincarnation. It's just something that happens. I know it doesn't fit in with some people's belief systems, but that doesn't stop it from happening.

I conduct past life regressions at the spiritual learning centre where I work. I've found a few intersting things from my experiences of taking people through regressions, and a few interesting things from having been regressed myself a few times.

You're correct Aquarious, in that there is no sense of time outside the physical world.
Actually I recently learned that particles in the physical world don't always move "forward" in time either, but that's another story.

There is a general flow in the evolutionary process that seems to indicate as a race, or more appropriately, as a group of souls experiencing life on this planet, we are (most of us) progressing in our evolution. This evolutionary progression does link directly with time progression, hence most previous lifetimes have been lifetimes in the past.

There have been exceptions though, which is why we refer to them not only as past lives, but past / parallel lives....

I recently had the concept of parallel universes proven to me with the last regression client I had. She described in very clear detail a life spent in a world that was exactly in line with our own current society.

I've also had numerous regressions, including some of my own, that have detailed lifetimes on completely different, and sometimes very "alien" worlds. With these lifetimes, I have no possible way of determining what time period they're in.

The whole point of souls incarnating into this physical plane is to gain knowledge, experience and understanding of life. It all relates to the idea that if you haven't first experienced fear, then how can you understand and appreciate love. So if a specific piece of understanding has not been achieved in one lifetime, or or a lifetime has been spent in indulging physical desires at the expense of others or self growth, then that soul will seek to achieve that understanding, or correct that imbalance in its next life.

Hope that helps.

Blessings,
James.

[kiwibonga]

The idea is that, yes there is a possibility that you will sequentially reincarnate in the past. Where it gets tough is the famous "if you go back in time and kill your parents before you are born, will you cease to exist?" -- in other words, if today I decided to go back in time and change the course of history, would I come back to a different world?

My personal belief on this is that we are living in something that is "final," meaning that we are the result of the "natural" course of events, with the addition of every single time travel ever performed. As such, it's very possible that I went back in time during this life, warned myself of something subconsciously, and am now experiencing the result of the changes I have made, without actually knowing about the time travels that occured within my own consciousness.

If a certain course of events leads me in the future to tell myself "I should go back to [TIME X] and change this," I will not actually possess knowledge of the modification, since the whole sequence between [TIME X] and the moment I decided to go back in time will be rewritten.

As humans we limit ourselves to linear time-thinking, we are absolutely, 100% sure that the course of time cannot be altered, that time travel is crazy-talk, but everything about consciousness points to the contrary. I believe that manifesting and controlling your reality are entirely dependant on the nature of our consciousness -- not confined in time and space.

Now of course, I can't be sure that this is true, it's a bit of an outrageous claim, but the more I read, the more I am inclined to think that the aware human who is in control of his own destiny is in fact a time traveler, whether he retains memory of this or not.

Robert Monroe has had the chance to remember such an event, where he visited himself in the past and was able to solve the meaning of a mysterious OBE that had happened decades before. The reason he retained memory of it probably lies in the fact that he was aware and out of body both when he travelled back and when he was visited by himself.

So, basically, the idea that reincarnation happens timelessly and non-sequentially doesn't seem that mind boggling to me -- the bigger problem is that we lack solid data on what happens when our consciousness becomes capable of transcending space and time; anything's possible!

[Novice]

If there is no sence of time, the soul can experience all it wants immediatly, so at the same time that it's born, it would have experinced everything that is needed to be completely fullfilled and be at one with the universe (If that's the aim). Even if some souls have to reincarnate aspects of their personality (their tenticles) more times than other souls, the souls will all reach the same stage eventually and will have all been able to reincarnate their tenticles as many times as needed in order to complete their goal. If this is the case... a cold blooded murderer or a peodaphile will be reincarnated as many times as it takes to learn from their experience and evetually reach the personality of... i don't know... a nun. But it doesn't really mattter how many times the soul has to reincarnate itself to reach that personality because their is no sence of time in the spirtual world so it will already be at the same stage of evolution as a nun (Or anyother stereotypical "good" person). Again what's the point?

Essentially, you are asking the frequently asked question "why are we here", but relative to reincarnation. My own personal opinions are along the same lines as what James suggested. There is a theory that all lives are being lived simultaneously, which I believe is certainly possible. This theory also suggests that deja-vu is a result of this process. It can also be supported by yogic, buddhic and other eastern philosophies that teach "being here, now." In other words there is nothing else except what you are doing the moment you do it; no past or future, only the present. I think it is a valid theory, but I haven't thought through all of the aspects of it yet.

As for the goal of life, your guess is as good as anybody else's. Personally I'm leaning towards the thought that we are all created perfect already, but we lack experience. If we are 'perfect' how can we understand duality? What defines good and bad, happy and sad, etc. I think we live multiple lives to feel and experience different things, and from those experiences broaden our understanding of them and of our relationship with others. Knowledge born from experience is wisdom. Wisdom is not something that can be read about or watched. It can only be learned through experience. And oftentimes, the best and most valuable lessons, are often derived from the worst experiences; but they tend to be the most cherished.

But as I often say, these are just my current thoughts. The more I read and experience, the more I refine my own views. Hopefully this will give you another way to think of things.

[thenoob]

I can't help but think that your judgmental words were in reference to my post in the other forum. I won't derail this thread but I have PM'ed you

[Novice]

I think a lot of energy has been put into a recent thread (suicide) and it seems to be getting a bit tasteless, especially when people can't be bothered to read long posts! Anyway if the guy wants to waste his life, that's his selfish choice, there are people in poverty and people with life threatening illnesses and disabilities that would love to be in his position, he's obviously too selfabsorbed and ungrateful for the spark of life he's been given!  So I have some questions for serious people about reincarnation and life after death.

I wanted to include a comment on this in my initial post and got rushed for time. I understand your opinion on suicide. However, the tone is a bit judgemental and unnecessary as this is not related to the other thread. The Astral Pulse is a world wide forum to discuss varying points of view while maintaining respect for each individual involved. Please be more mindful of the words you use in future posts.

Thank you!

[catmeow]

Hi Aquarius

Your post seems to have two basic threads, kind of inter-mingled.  The first is a conventional practical one: "if time doesn't exist then that poses a lot of practical problems", and the second is a metaphysical one: "if all of time already exists then what is the point of all of this 'learning' stuff?".

Theoretical physics actually has a multitude of answers to the first question, I don't see it really as much of a problem.  For instance the "Many Worlds" hypothesis would have us jump into a new universe every time we go back in time, so there is no possibility of re-writing history and causing a "paradox".  Alternatively, if you don't like this idea (and I don't) there is also the very real possibility that the current "time" we find ourselves in is actually the orderly result of people going back in time and rewriting history. 

Let's say you go back in time to when your father was a kid.  You spot him walking into the road in front of a big truck.  You jump into the road and push your father to safety, saving his life.  The result? Your father grows up and gives birth to you. If you never went back in time to save his life you would never exist.  So this is an example of a perfectly orderly re-writing of history.  No paradox - it's a bit like a temporal "feedback loop".  Quite possibly we all make jumps back and forth in time and the result is the history we have.  It all works out.  Situations which cause "paradoxes" do not happen, because by definition they destroy history.  But situations which result in order do happen, and perhaps happen all the time. Perhaps all of time already exists and by definition consists of only well ordered non-paradox time travel events.

So it's quite possible that reincarnation happens in a non-sequential time line and there is no paradox with this.  As others have said in this thread there are examples of this, although I do agree it is rarer than I would expect.  It's also possible that we incarnate into many lives simultaneously following the tentacle model.  I don't see any practical problems with any of this.

Regarding your second question, the philosophical one of  "if all of time already exists then what is the point of all of this 'learning' stuff" well I do sympathise with it. But in practical scientific terms all of time and space can exist as a single complete whole - it's called "the time-space continuum" and is a well known scientific idea.  If we could step out of our little time-window of awareness, then we would be able to see all of history in one panoramic snapshot.  It's really a well-known idea.  So once we accept that, then your question becomes simply "why are we here?".

Well that's the old chestnut and I can't answer it. However, I do know for sure that we ARE here.  Therefore there must be a reason and there must be an answer.  But just because it's a bit of a toughy doesn't mean it's a dumb question!

[James S]

As for the goal of life, your guess is as good as anybody else's. Personally I'm leaning towards the thought that we are all created perfect already, but we lack experience. If we are 'perfect' how can we understand duality? What defines good and bad, happy and sad, etc. I think we live multiple lives to feel and experience different things, and from those experiences broaden our understanding of them and of our relationship with others. Knowledge born from experience is wisdom. Wisdom is not something that can be read about or watched. It can only be learned through experience. And oftentimes, the best and most valuable lessons, are often derived from the worst experiences; but they tend to be the most cherished.

You expressed that beautifully Novice!
That's exactly how I feel about it, and you've put that feeling into words much better than I was able to. Thank you! 

[EqualThoughts]

Regarding reincarnation and past life memories, perhaps these are real events you have experienced.... but maybe.... they are memories that have been implanted into you by a stonger more powerful manipulative being, perhaps they are forces meant to guide you into a certain frame of action, a plan which is not your own. then agian, perhaps your "reality" is also a force akin to this theory, in which case your own experiences may misguide you or sway your personality and judgement. how do you know what to trust. what makes you "you"? your experiences? if youre experiences were altered from the ones you now contain, would you be the same person---are you really in control of who you are, or are you just being pulled along for the ride.........

[James S]

That doesn't wash for me at all!!

The idea of being manipulated by outside forces is a wonderful scapegoat for people who do not wish to take ownership and responsibility for their own lives.
Such people will typically live their lives with a victim or "poor me" mentality.

James.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Very interesting posts in this thread. I would like to believe the idea that we have learned from our past experiences in past lives. Currently it is just hard for me to do so because I just feel clueless.

I have a problem imagining the short time of our current lives could make us who we are. When we are young children we carry some of the same traits right now. Maybe things we have experienced before, at whatever point in time, are easier now for us to learn from and maybe we are able to use that knowledge more quickly then a past life.

Right now I am starting to believe in reincarnation. My life currently I feel like I don't even belong in this time period. So many more things to worry about in this world now then hundreds of years ago.

[Novice]

So many more things to worry about in this world now then hundreds of years ago.

Are there reallly that many more things to worry about now, or are they just different things to worry about.

Hundreds of years ago people rarely lived long lives. They had to deal with plagues, illnesses, and many other diseases that today are curable or preventive. You also would not be able to openly voice opinions contrary to church or state policy for fear of persecution/death. And don't forget invasions by neighboring countries/tribes/clans/whatever. Granted some of those things still happen today, but on different scales.

I think there were just as many things to worry about in the past as there are today. Its just that we don't see it that way becuase the things they worried about, we've already evolved enough to deal with. But with evolution comes new stuff people have to deal with.

Just a thought!

[Nay]

That doesn't wash for me at all!!

The idea of being manipulated by outside forces is a wonderful scapegoat for people who do not wish to take ownership and responsibility for their own lives.
Such people will typically live their lives with a victim or "poor me" mentality.

James.

Precisely!

Novice:  You too..LOL..

[catmeow]

Novice, I agree with you.  we have so many little things to worry about, like "anger management" for 11 year old kids at school, when really they are just basically badly behaved.  Also making sure you've got the latest mobile phone or other gadget.... or the right brand trainers. Round about 1940 kids used to worry whether they still had a house to go home to when they came out of the air-raid shelter (in the UK we were regularly bombed in WWII).  I think we're a bit molly-coddled these days.... feel we've got it bad when we've never had it so good... Off-topic I know.. but well...

[Awakened_Mind]

I think the only difference between religion and science is evidence. Essentially they are both searching for the same thing, the truth. I'll try to steer away from oppinions on religion just to avoid Hi-jacking the thread.

On space and time. Einstein showed us the truth about time. E=mc2. Perhaps I should say expanded our understanding of it. That it is not definite. From the impression I get on space from quantum physics is that in essence everything is one. This oneness many call God.

I have nothing on reincarnation sorry 

-Awakened_Mind

[EqualThoughts]

yo james, what if youre experiences are merely devices which are chanelling you into taking control and responsibility for your own actions just to force you into some plan of action that is not your own. just a thought man no need to wet your pants over it..

[ParanoidAndroid]

Novice: I believe right now during this time period there are a lot more things to worry about. It is much easier currently to forget what life is truly about. We get caught up in the material things. Making money is much more important then caring for your fellow man.

I believe there are just more temptations now that will make you forget about your life and fantasize about living another.  Parents don't even have time to look after their own children anymore, but they might get to drive a Mercedes Benz. That is what life is all about, right?

[James S]

Hi Equalthoughts,

Thanks for your concern, but my pants are quite dry and the only entity in control of me is ME!

I am totally, absolutely 100% certain of that!

[Aquarious]

Hi everyone,

I very much appreciate all your views on this topic and it's great that you guys always try to respond to difficult, important questions, unlike a lot of religious teachers.

First of all I'd like to apologies to anyone that was offended by my snap remark about suicide. I did however, get quite a nasty PM from thenoob which I was tempted to copy and paste for the rest of you to see but I'll PM him back with my response. Let's just say he was carrying out a threat and was blaming me and people like myself for any action that he will now defiantly take... Nice to put on my shoulders eh?

O.K. Back to the time and space thing.... I'd just like to start with Kiwibunga's opinions: You're right, the whole point of me writing my first post was to try not to limit myself to the whole linear time thinking but the idea of going back in time to rewrite history sounds a bit hollywood "quantum leap" (I know anything is possible) but it wouldn't explain the evil actions people take and we would all be living in a perfect world without any accidental deaths as people would just avoid getting into them situations.  ?

Catmeow... looking at the time-space continuum makes it a lot easier to understand. I.E stepping out of time and seeing everything as one whole. I think that makes perfect sense. Cheers 

Novice... You say we are all perfect and we just lack experience... I know this is an age old question but what does a baby born with aids need to experience? What about babies that are born severely disabled and die before they're two? Are they perfect? What were they meant to learn from their experiences?

Sorry I can't quote everyones names but I think somepeople like to create a subconscious world that would suit them and an almost adventure style matrix like system that would agree with their creative environment... I mean would you still feel the same way about reincarnation if you was born disabled? Or severely mentally retarded?

What I'm looking for I suppose, is a more worldly, universal answer that would apply to everyone, whether your born with a serious illness and die before you experience anything or if your born in Iraq and are bombed when you're ten years old... Or you are born into riches and unlimited wealth and freedoms... A universal reason for reincarnation for everyone! 

Sorry I'm asking the unanswerable but I'm trying to push the boundaries to see where it takes us. I know it's a demanding, to the point question but I'm trying not to beat around the bush

P.S. I love the comment about money motivated people with no time for their children... I'm a father that sees loads of these Mercedes Mum's that dump their children with childminders for the whole day while they rush off to enhance their precious careers. Makes me sick! 

[Novice]

What about babies that are born severely disabled and die before they're two? Are they perfect? What were they meant to learn from their experiences?

I had responded to a similar question a few months ago on an unrelated topic. And I guess my views on disabilities must vary from other people's opinions. Your first assumption is that a disabled person (whether physically or mentally) is somehow being cheated out of life. That seems to be a common 'factual' conclusion which I do not believe to be a fact at all, rather an opinion. I've known several disabled individuals in my lifetime. And they are just like anyone else. A few were very dependent on people (the 'pity me' syndrome). But most of them were simply amazing to listen to and watch. They were truly inspiring. And perhaps one of the reason's they were born that way was to inspire others. You find it difficult to imagine being disabled because you are not disabled. But if you were born that way, you don't really know anything else. So you do the best you can do.

And I think mentally 'disabled' people have some of the biggest, purest hearts of anyone I've ever met. They often times make me ashamed of some of the thoughts I've had because they see things so innocently.

As for the children born with diseases who die so young, I can only offer a few suggestions, none of which may be correct. Some of the thoughts I have are that they die young to experience what a short life really is. They want to understand not only the suffering they experience from their disease, but also the love and compassion from family and friends as they deal with their disease. And the parents may choose to experience what it feels like to loose a child.

I don't know the answer to any of these and I could be way off base with everything I've written. I'm just throwing out some theories you may not have considered when asking these questions. Personally I think that we are here not only to experience things for ourselves, but also to help others we meet along the way. And to my previous post, I think humans gain extroardinary amounts of compassion and wisdom not only from direct experiences of traumatic events, but also by being touched by others who are experiencing these things personally. I think the universe is far too vast and diverse to allow for only one or two 'reasons' for an event to occur. I think its more like a spider web, where so many threads weave in and out and interact with one another. And when one thread is touched by something, all of the threads surrounding it can feel it as well. 

[Nay]

Novice!  Another wonderful, insightful post that I could not agree more with!   Keep this up and you'll get a promotion. 

[kiwibonga]

O.K. Back to the time and space thing.... I'd just like to start with Kiwibunga's opinions: You're right, the whole point of me writing my first post was to try not to limit myself to the whole linear time thinking but the idea of going back in time to rewrite history sounds a bit hollywood "quantum leap" (I know anything is possible) but it wouldn't explain the evil actions people take and we would all be living in a perfect world without any accidental deaths as people would just avoid getting into them situations.  ?

Well, we are on the plane of experience, not the plane of perfection -- it's pretty normal that we don't live in a perfect world. The idea is that when you choose to reincarnate and take on a new life, there is an initial decision about the type of life you will experience, the kinds of hardships you will face, etc. The hardships range from natural causes (natural disasters, famine, predators) to the unfortunate actions of other humans. At the root we are all innocent.

From the higher's self point of view, supposedly, life starts when you die and ends when you are born, you actually go through a selective process where you make the decisions one by one but going "backwards" in time rather than forward -- this does not mean that you actually know the future, though.

It can be confusing because there is always an infinity of possibilities the future holds, but the idea is that the closer you are to death, the smaller this infinite realm of possibilities is. It's a bit like going up a tree -- you start out at "death" which is the root of the tree, then you choose a branch (a possibility) to follow. Each branch splits into an infinity of other branches (possibilities), and you basically select a life path through this tree.

What was the name of the theory about lines? Someone mentioned it here once... Something about how each person's life is a "line" in reality and is completely variable. Each person gets to manipulate this line to their liking and then sees what happens. This affects the whole planet, and other people (other higher selves) take into account these modifications, and the final result (what we see as the past and present) is the sum of all modifications made by all the higher selves in response to each other's modifications.

It's pretty hard to make it concrete, but since we are our higher selves, we actually make these decisions on a subconscious level -- I'm not talking about the freudian subconscious that likes to play with poop, I'm talking about the unseen conscious mind that works behind the scenes. If you show strong intent to act upon this decision process while you are living, you will be in control of your "destiny."

All the world's problems and the hardships we face are the direct consequence of the initial situation -- we come into this world ignorant and innocent; perhaps it's for the best.

[Awakened_Mind]

A perfect world is an ideaology. Focussing on the way we think the world should be is ignorant to the way the world actually is. IMO, a perfect world would be boring. This all depending on what we mean by a "perfect world". Let's just agree on a universal definition to save ourselves from a trivial debate.

Seeings how nothing, or no one is perfect and this is our reality, wouldn't imperfection ironically make something perfect? Make it complete, whole?

-AM

[Meneleus]

It's been a while since I've visited these forums but felt immediately at home after reading this thread. 

About a year ago I had a lucid dream where I was shown previous lives I may have lived.  From that point on I became curious and interested in learning the truth behind reincarnation. 

I don't follow any religion and though I consider myself open minded, my thoughts are governed by logic.  Probably for this reason, I've always found the idea of reincarnation somewhat baffling.

I remember reading that there are more humans in existence at this point in time than have existed in the whole of our history combined.  Therefore, it doesn't make sense that so many of us have past life recollections.  For those that do regressions, I'd be interested to know how many people can't recall anything at all (perhaps from being a new soul) compared to those that can.

What is a person?  Apart from the physical aspect, it is the memories, ideas, hopes, dreams etc that defines a person for who they truly are. Or to put it another way, it is the consciousness that defines their being.  I'm sure most of us would agree this consciousness continues to exist without a physical host (NDEs are good evidence for this) which begs the question: is the soul and the consciousness one and the same?

If this is the case then reincarnation makes no sense whatsoever.  From the authors I've read regarding afterlife exploration (Monroe and Moen) and articles I've read online, all seem to suggest that when you die you only retain the memories you have experienced during your own lifetime.  You don't suddenly become a fountain of accumulated knowledge amassed over several lifetimes.  If you were a bumbling buffoon in life, you'll sure as hell be a bumbling buffoon in death.  Therefore, if advocating reincarnation, it suggests the slate being wiped clean at rebirth (therefore destroying the consciousness that was).  If it wasn't destroyed, then what happens to it? 

Aquarious put forward the idea of the higher self being like a jellyfish with each tentacle being an incarnation of life (a view supported by Monroe and Moen).  Someone else pointed out that these lifetimes are lived concurrently which also makes sense.  However, if both of these are correct, then it could explain the reincarnation phenomena without a rebirth process.

When a person recalls past lives,  they could simply be accessing another strand or tentacle from their higher self.  It isn't a life they have previously lived, but another life their higher self is currently living – two different consciousnesses in possibly two different timeframes accessing information via their higher self.  Or, perhaps all memories from each consciousness are sent to the higher self and accessed directly.  Regardless, no rebirth would be necessary to explain past life experiences.  Aquarious also brought up the point of nobody recalling future lives, but wouldn't future memories explain precognition?

This other point is hard to explain.  As another person stated, the idea of rebirth is linear thinking – a progression of the soul along a timeline.  However, if the Astral has no time (as suggested) it would be non-linear. There would be no past, no future, only the now.  If the higher self is to experience and learn through life incarnations, all of them have to be done at once.  The notion of living a life then being sent back to relive another one implies a past and future, thereby trying to apply linear rules to a non-linear environment.  An impossibility...isn't it?

So my take on the situation is that all incarnations of life from the higher self are lived concurrently but as different consciousnesses.  Recollections of past lives are connections between two consciousnesses connected to the same higher self and there is no rebirth process.  Upon death, each consciousness returns to the higher self.

Take care,

Michael.