Relxation and the sleep process?

innerpilot · April 29, 2004, 01:06:58

Hi, I'm surprised no one else has responded to your plea for help. The problem you present has been a big focus of my attention for many years. I've learned lots of techniques. Some work, some don't. Some work sometimes. If you are sincere in wanting help with this, I will be glad to invest the time and friendship, but I will have to ask you some personal questions. So if you want to Private Mail me, go ahead, and we can continue from there.

holy reality · May 03, 2004, 18:29:13

PM sent...

*bump*

so... anyone else? I'd be interested if the same people that have the problems I have, have general sleeping problems too (falling asleep, staying asleep, waking up a lot... low energy during the day?)

Or... what... because this carries over into when I just want to GO TO SLEEP... if I do my various methods where I try to accelerate the falling asleep process, I'll jolt in/out of consciousness many many many many many times, but will not be able to fall asleep for the life of me, unless I quit and just lie there trying not to fall asleep once I get deep enough..

So it's like... well, if I have to quit after all that work, it's almost just as efficient to lie there and daydream until I fall asleep than it is to get there within 5-15 minutes, but not be able to actually STAY THERE by using the methods I've found.

Consumed_Crustacean · May 03, 2004, 19:46:36

You sure aren't alone. I often have problems getting to sleep (or whatnot), from the result of sudden 'jerks'/'jumps'/'jolts' or whatever. Sometimes this will happen in only part of my body, which is odd, and other times it's the normal full body variety.

Much of the time these jolts occur when I begin to drift off into a partial 'dream', and see something like a frying pan being swatted at me, a kid pushing me out of the seat at a theatre, or perhaps just the classic 'running and tripping'.

Overall this whole thing is very obnoxious, and while it doesn't stop me from sleeping and such every night, it does tick me off when it occurs.

holy reality · May 03, 2004, 20:56:56

does it happen when you try to consciously project?

or have you not tried that?

I usually can't even make it into a semi-dream... usually just hearing a voice or a sound is enough to make it happen.

It sucks because I know when I go deep enough I get paralyzed, if I could just seize that and stay conscious during it, I could project... but I can't.. I lose control of my mind....

So I don't know... I managed to hold onto an image for a few seconds the other day, got deep enough that the jolt out still had a floating image there... so I could be making progress... if I can get deep enough that the jolt out leaves me in paralysis, I'm there.

Phong · May 04, 2004, 01:33:11

This "jolt" is a reaffirmation of waking-self-identification. Upon experiencing all sorts of weird and bizarred imagery, the logical part of you that you're holding on for the ride not only says, "what was that? where am I?" but also "what am I?" because the self is in flux, and the antecedent of "I" is quickly reconciled as the one lying in bed trying to fall asleep...

Instead, reconcile the "I" as your energy body or dream self, or whatever you like to call it. This where dream recall and dream journals come in handy, for if you know your dream body well enough you should have no trouble identifying it as the "you" who is experiencing the strange hypnagogic imagery.

[Edit: Yes, this where most give up for fear of experiencing true madness and/or schizophrenia, (i.e., split from rationality) and, yes, you will feel as though you are quite mad for a brief period, and yes, you will be frightened. Sorry, just had to add that friendly disclaimer

]

thelou · May 04, 2004, 09:23:47

Hi holy reality,

When people go to sleep naturally almost everyone has a twitch of some kind. The arm or leg twitches. Most are unaware of this as they are to deep into the sleep stage. I have read that many people have experienced the same things I have.

We relax and try to go into a deep sleep, but keep the mind awake. When the body starts to fall into a deeper sleep the twitching thing happens. But our conscious minds are still awake so we notice it more easily.

When I first started my arm or leg would twitch. The more I persisted the more violent the twitching would become. And it totally breaks your focus.[}:)] So I started to try and ignore them and not let them have any of my attention. As I did this (over several days) they became even more violent. One time my entire body got involved and it was like I was having a seizure! It was almost scarey, but I continued to try and ignore it. Then it sort of just went away.[

]

Now when I count myself down into a deep sleep I can usually feel a twitch in my arm or leg, but it is so minimal that it does not get my mental focus messed up.

I would be more than happy to share my count down technique with you if you want. It consists of twenty breaths, then my body is relaxed and completely asleep. An my mind is awake. Now I am usually at the hypnogogic state.

NOTE: This is not a personal attack on you. But I would like to mention a possible "block" that may be slowing you down. I have read many of the posts that you have commented on. (Seems like we read allot of the same ones). And many of the times you comment on being afraid of getting hurt or killed. Is it possible that your fears of that could be making it hard for you to progress? Again not meant as an attack, just a hard to ask question. I think if you give it some serious thought you could have a great breakthrough.[

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Let me know if you (or anyone else) would like me to go in-depth about my breathing technique.

Thelou

holy reality · May 04, 2004, 10:38:57

i'm not sure why you think i'm worried about being hurt or killed, the other day when that guy said that HE actually did stuff with the cup of water, and people saw him, well that made me wonder if he was doing it, then what is to keep him from killing someone, or himself, if he's actually physically manifested somewhere?

I know that I don't physically manifest at all... so I don't care.....

I'm sure a bit afraid of the unknown like anyone else but I project enough at night to have a familiarity to it... so no, it isn't fear.

I guess maybe just remember that I have a body might enough to set this into motion though... I try to imagine that I am somewhere else, but THAT IS SO HARD.... it really is.

I can't really visualize in my head, now, it's better than it used to be and is improving some, but for the most part I can't do it..... and when I do, I see myself from the 3rd person... it's so hard to try and get a hypnagogic image going that I am conscious during...

If i do it's not that hard to hold onto it and enter it, not at all...... but that seems like a huge bother.

I'd rather just pay attention to my body and feel it shut down, like I do in sleep paralysis during the night sometimes.

I'd like to hear your counting method.

Phong · May 04, 2004, 21:04:52

Try not to "pay attention," you're not in school nor are your parents lecturing you. Instead, "experience," engross yourself into your senses.

Don't visualize anything, induce dreams for a while - they're not obe's, but if you're good at remembering them you can see when they started, how they started, and maybe even the chain of hypnagogic imagery through the threshold.

In my dreams I always pierce the sky to project, and fall downwards to awaken, leading me to believe that dreaming is "between" waking and projecting. I believe dreaming is a necessary stepping stone for us all into obe's. Become familiar with this step, and it'll be easier later to skip it. Good hunting.

holy reality · May 05, 2004, 19:22:05

Phong i can't enter dreams

because i can't fall asleep........ i may be tired during the day, but even when i just want to nap... i really can't (one exception, like 2-3 months ago, where i had a dream, then a LD, then an OBE) but that's about it....

I've tried to just NAP since then and I can't get to sleep.

I have the same myoclonic jerk problems as if I were trying to awarely drift into sleep.

Phong · May 05, 2004, 22:18:15

Not to discourage you, but you're going to find limited help in a forum. No one can diagnose a sleeping disorder online and, again, not to discourage your asking, but there are no quick and easy muscular relaxation techniques. Relaxation is cultivated through a sense of accomplishment and equilibrium with life, and that is learned through a process of trial and error.

Good luck.

Comokisadore · May 06, 2004, 08:15:32

I dont think its a sleeping disorder, dont let anyone put any negative programing in you.

The same thing happens to me both the daytime attempts to project and at night, even if i dont attempt to project.

Its your other body and conciousness that slams back because of some disturbance. Dont know the exact details of the whole process, but that is what happens.

holy reality · May 23, 2004, 20:06:21

that's a nice metaphor, I believe I have likened the sleeping process much to an elastic band.... at first it's very hard, pretty soon you are bouncing all over the place and each time you go further in both directions.....

i never really thought it out THAT deep though....

I can watch an image fade for 1-2 seconds, that isn't enough.. do you mean watch it fade away, or actually make it stay there and real for 1-2 seconds? If so I'm not sure how to do that, granted, turn your normal mind off, but how? When it's in the middle of the morning that's one thing, at night, entirely another.

BOATS · May 23, 2004, 21:09:26

I am not very good at creating imagery and just try to grab hold of one as they pass my field of vision and hang on. Never successfully as of yet. It seems that sometimes the imagery catches me and that is when I jerk awake. I am not sure what Phong means when he says about transferring I awareness to your dream body but is sound like it is going into the right direction. P.S. It is not only us I have noticed that my dog who likes to sleep with me jerks awake often too. I supose he is also having projection problems. Keep smiling.

holy reality · April 27, 2004, 13:39:36

Whenever I start falling asleep, I jerk awake, no matter what..... if I'm actually trying to sleep it may only happen a few times, if I'm trying to project, the sky is the limit (or rather my patience is).

I'll be about 5 seconds into imagery, or voices, and I just snap awake with a mild rush...... if I get deep enough, with muscle contractions.

But I CANNOT stay inside the imagery:
#1, because I'm not conscious while in it... i'm half asleep.
#2, something just snaps me out of it.

So at this point, in the months I've been working on it, I think I either have some sort of sleeping disorder.... or that the "something" that snaps me out is my body not being relaxed.

So I'm asking you all who do those long drawn out relaxation excercises, do they make it easier to fall asleep without frequent jolts awake? Have any of you had the problem I had, then remedied it by doing a relaxation technique before hand?

I mean I am comfortable when doing these things, I'm not really tense or sore or anything, but maybe the body naturally needs to have a large amount of muscle relaxation (normally from melatonin) before it'll just let you turn itself off at a whim?

Maybe the body is too "awake" so when they mind tries to shut it off it's like NO! ... or something? But if I did some sort of relazation thing, that it'd keep that from happening?

(i don't think i'd end up napping, because the constant intent to project is there, i'd probably fall asleep and end up lucid, or perhaps go deep enough to wake up into paralysis)

Do you all know of any EASY and QUICK relaxation techniques? I'm talking about actual physical body/muscle relaxation not just, calming down of the mind.

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Relxation and the sleep process?