The Astral Pulse

Hi there, What Tha Phak,
I am not as experienced as Robert Bruce, but I have 25 years of reading, studying AND direct personal experiences to fall back on, some of which are similar to his.I agree with him on the issue of the only body there is...is that of the one you imagine there to be.I have also had some experiences where I seem to have no tangible body at all, but I can still see, hear and speak.And there have been others where I have some sort of body similar in shape to the physical body but without the solidity.But I have never ever experienced any kind of pain at all while projecting.How about trying a little direct personal experience yourself? If you have read so much, surely you must know how to astrally project yourself by now.

I am not as wise and experienced in OBE as Robert Bruce but according to my experience – mostly real time OBE – there is no contradiction in Robert Bruce explanations. I discovered the same, that my body is just mind projection. When you're out of body, then whatever mind activity causes disturbances and problems. I know that I am a point of consciousness, but I act as if I were the body. The source of pain is exactly the same. Pain is not apparent from the body – if you have (or think you have) the body, then pain is only a consequence, because it is the only source of pain – the body. I know that you may still say that it is the body that feels the pain via the Silver Cord. I don't know how to prove that it is not the case but the evidence is that any signal from the body via the Silver Cord causes immediate return and awakening.
My comment is as follow. One can never understand planes beyond physical, because our understanding is physical. In OBE you're in the realm of pure mind, so whatever you experience, originates from the mind. Now you try to create a picture of other planes in your mind and see contradictions. But contradiction is in a picture and not in Robert Bruce words. That picture is simply assembled with not proper pieces. They are your concepts and ideas derived from your physical experience. They simply don't suit. When I had my first OBE I didn't know what was that, but it was something that made my mind unable to understand. At the same time it was something that made my heart more open to accept, even things which I don't understand.
Tomasz

Greetings,

The true Astral body is actually the Astra-Mental body. When people pass from physical world upon physical death, they then move to the Astral realms with their Astra-Mental body - a body which is very real, and very perceievable by all Astral residents as a copy, or often a younger version, of the physical body.

To Astral residents and those who can partake in true and complete Astral separation (which is not the same as OBE or phasing), eveything in the Astral is very solid and real and consistent.

The differences arise from the many variations of Astral travel while we still live in the physical world. OBE is a projection of a copy of the mind into an etheric double for example. Phasing is a projection of consciousness to the Astral body, Mental projection is a projection of the Mental body without the Astral body, and Lucid Dreaming is something else again [:)]

So it depends on how you are visiting the Astral as to the degree of perception, subjectivity, objectivity, stability etc..

With best regards,

Adrian.

O.K. I have now, new comments to make, and very eager to get them clear.    I am willing to accept the self-awareness astral body concept (supporting the point of awareness), it all makes sense.

Adrian, I am inclined to disagree with you when you say, "Astral separation (which is not the same as OBE or phasing), eveything in the Astral is very solid and real and consistent."

On contrare, I say Astral seperation, or projection, and OBEs are the EXACT same thing.  When you "seperate" from you physical body during AP, it would be safe to say you are OUT OF YOUR BODY.  Thus, OBEs and AP are the same thing, just different terms.  Another idea supporting this is- when you are having an OBE... where do you think you are..?  In the Astral, of course!  Also, when you say, "eveything in the Astral is very solid and real and consistent."  I must also disagree.  Judging not from my experience but from my knowledge, EVERYTHING in the astral is SUBJECTIVE, except for the real-time universe Astral, where you can witness things on Earth AS it happens, you can even confirm what you just saw, thus making it OBJECTIVE.  But the mind starts to wander, as Bruce describes, and creates a reality from your SUBJECTIVE thoughts.     I say the planes of existance above the physical and "real-time" planes are entirely subjective.  Bruce even states this.

Tomasz, when people jot down their experiences and some say they feel extreme pain (only way i can describe) do you deny that?  I really don't see how fear can cause someone pain, but CAN see how fear can interrupt the mind and yank it back into body.  Now I REALLY dissagree with you when you say, "but the evidence is that any signal from the body via the Silver Cord causes immediate return and awakening."  Tomasz, first off, what EVIDENCE? How do you think the mind/consciousness operates external of its own physical body?  Your astral self is CONSTANTLY receiving and sending signals back and forth via the silver cord.  How could it not be so?  When you are projecting, and want to raise some energy to make the experience more vivid, or to ease the experience, where do you think the energy comes from?  Your physical/etheric body creates the pure energies and sends it through the silver cord to wherever you are in the astral.

Goldenroses, I consider myself very knowledgable in the topic of OBEs.  I've read entire books solely compiled of the personal experiences that people have, which they wrote themselves; and have read books about theories and deeper philsophical issues shrouding the origins of OBEs.    I believe one can gain an extrodinary amount of spiritual growth and enlightenment from the exploration and time spent while out of body, considering all that is involved in sucessfully exiting the body.  The few people that can willfully AP on this planed are gifted and I admire them.  I'm 16 years old and have yet to have an out of body experience and the day it happens, I'll probably excrement in my pants out of amazement.  I try just about every night before I go to sleep, and sometimes I meditate while listening to trance and hemi-sync music, still trying to leave my body.

Well, I guess what I'm really trying to say is... how could other astral traveleres and beings SEE you if there is no actual body?  Unless they see your self-awarness body.  Which I think is the most likely factor.  They see what you imagine yourself to be.  But then how would you explain pain?  I still say it is possibly (and probably) the physical/etheric body sending these sesations via the silver cord.  Maybe because of lack of energy development, and the body is not quite ready and trained for such massive energy being held in the body...? It's what i think.

Well, anywayzzzzzz my fingers hurt and so does my head for thinkingngkjsdgh arrggg!!!!  Replies are APPRECIATED!  also.. any tips for me and projeting?

quote:

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Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings,

The true Astral body is actually the Astra-Mental body. When people pass from physical world upon physical death, they then move to the Astral realms with their Astra-Mental body - a body which is very real, and very perceievable by all Astral residents as a copy, or often a younger version, of the physical body.

To Astral residents and those who can partake in true and complete Astral separation (which is not the same as OBE or phasing), eveything in the Astral is very solid and real and consistent.

The differences arise from the many variations of Astral travel while we still live in the physical world. OBE is a projection of a copy of the mind into an etheric double for example. Phasing is a projection of consciousness to the Astral body, Mental projection is a projection of the Mental body without the Astral body, and Lucid Dreaming is something else again [:)]

So it depends on how you are visiting the Astral as to the degree of perception, subjectivity, objectivity, stability etc..

With best regards,

Adrian.

---

Hi Adrian,

I'm trying to sort all this out. It looks like we have two separate phenomena here. I'll call them projection and phasing. I define projection as creating an energetic double to bring back memories (obe), and I define phasing is shifting one's egoic consciousness into one of the several higher bodies.

Leaving difficulty aside for the moment, what are the fundamental limitations of these two methods? Is the level of phasing (astral, mental, higher) only limited by the strength of one's egoic consciousness? How is the projected double limited? Can it reach these higher realms if it's made of "fine" enough energy? It seems like one can only experience the Real Time Zone with a projected double.

Now, this leaves true astral separation, death, and lucid dreaming. My impression was that lucid dreaming is phasing at a very low level. Is this correct?

Also, are astral separation and physical death similar processes? Is astral separation a "temporary death," perhaps? Is the astral indeed the "next level up" after physical death, the realm of my (first?) higher self that extends consciousness into me and "other me's" in the past, present, and future?

Mark

There is something which I want to ask, before anything else: Why is it necessary to be so insulting just to ask a few questions? Maybe it would be easier to answer if the questions could be re-phrased in a more considerate way.

See, hear, speak!

Any confusion could be cleared up if one understands or realizes there are CONDITIONS and CHANNELS for every perceptible universe!

If you project something, that may be perceived by some other being or any other point of consciousness depending upon their ability. It also could take knowing more about that other being to compare notes on what they perceived coming from you! And yet, it may not be or ever be exactly the same, but something was perceived!  For example, I could project being like a favorite idol of mine, and those out there may or may not perceive the subtlety of it. But they perceived you.

To be more accurate about bodies in different realms, remember, your current body is also a bundle of managed energy. It would not be perceived as MEAT in the other realms, maybe that is why it is perceived as a copy, for lack of better word. A body of a different frequency that seems to be created by the point of consciousness himself may be a more accurate description.  There is no contradiction in Robert Bruce's description of these realms. It is for you to feel yourself and compare the subtle differences. I do believe that the "bodies" in astral are shapeshifty, just as thoughts can be.

You are going to find gazillions of channels out there! The higher self may not be perceived by you yet! It takes more harmony and Self-unifying and a much higher vibration than you are manifesting.  Higher self implies that you see beyond many of the channels and machinery holding up the universes of creation. In short, the higher self demands of greater source level of creation.  The less flabergasted and frustrated you are, more likely you are headed up there.  Astral world is not up there, it is next to us.  It is all stagnant energy accessible by everyone, an old library of sorts. You can go to the New York public library and open up your mind as well. You will find archaic stuff, graffiti, old newspapers. Astral world is a created world, and it can be manipulated somewhat. It can be bypassed as well. There is lots to learn about all these realms.

Let's see which realms we frequent with ease, and let's see what exciting frontiers lay open ahead.

As for higher self, try Rudolf Steiner's books or Swedenborg. They both confirm that the higher self realms demand of one's ability to raise the vibration and frequency. It is much finer than rap, which seems to be an occasional frequency I encounter in this forum.

I see what some of you mean when you say you are out of the body, etc.. Just respect these old definitions and word labels for reference so we can actually learn to move around anywhere in the realms. I myself sometimes find phasing, astral projecting, mental projecting, etc.. I just take comfort in being AWARE that I am doing all this! Or is it my heavily physically filtered higher self very descended into world of form doing this? Anyhow, I am a single aspect of my higher self manifest in this world and any world I can enter would mean I have opened up my other aspects in this world. We are sending Light out throughout all our creation back to Self. Everything you do is an act of expansion or contraction of known territory. That is what this forum topic attempts at: recovery of our fullest awareness(es), and that would be our higher self via this world of form as a medium of expression and perception where we are writing this from.

Diagrams have been attempted on all these routes of exploration.  I saw one where the highest self is one big long tall shaft and all the other experiences such as OBE, phasing, mental projection, astral, are lesser spikes coming from our current awareness. This is like better than many people in our contemporary society would ever realize in this lifetime. The astral is right there for many at the hour of their deaths and they are in for a surprise. We do our lessons now, and we can graduate sooner by that time or quicker because we dared to question.

Try mapping out your "beyod" experiences and labelling/charting them into a comprhensive diagram that makes sense to you before you disagree.

I would think that venturing the higher levels of consciousness would mean much LESS MENTAL BAGGAGE (ego and all!) Lots of letting go goes on on the way up! :-)  I think that is what mantras take care of somewhat. Takes you out of your "mind" and restores fuller consciousness. I just said "fuller" consciousness. And we might be talking about worlds with lesser form. We are probably talking about vast power and energy and closer to source, and greatly simplified.

These other places to visit would just take technology and sharing of techniques, like what we are doing now. All the stuff on OBE, astral, mental projecting, and phasing seem to be into worlds of differing levels of density of forms. Yes, some of these terms can be confusing, because we are NOT our bodies. Even there is a certain paradox in saying I am out of my body now, when my awareness is everywhere and selective in points to view from be it in our out of the body, wherever!

I think there's been some confusion between philosophy and experience.  When Bruce said all we are when OBE is a point of consciousness, he meant that's all we REALLY are, in essence.  Sometimes we really do experience being our true self, pure consciousness, but most often our subconscious is so used to having a body that it can't accept this idea and creates one out of the astral or etheric matter provided.
Pain is in the mind.  A good example - my friend once had a dream where something went through his foot.  He looked down, having felt nothing, thought to himself that ought to hurt, and suddenly felt a sharp pain 'from his foot'.  Pain in the physical is damaged tissue sending signals of alarm.  The astral body is just energy, it can morph and bend and vanish, and therefore cannot be hurt.  But if through belief and physical experience, one Believes they will feel pain when damaged, they will.  It's possible to send positive emotions to others in the astral.. maybe it's possible to send feelings of physical pain too?  When pain is mentioned in the astral it usually means emotional pain, to my knowledge, and may cause some confusion.  As for the connection... in a dream I think you're right, that say your foot falls asleep and feels tingly and that pain or feeling is incorporated into your dream.  But when OBE, any pain that happens to your physical body will bring you back immediately.  Energy is indeed sent back and forth through the cord, and when the awareness of pain is sent, the body wants all possible awareness to be there to check it out.
The Astral- yes, technically an astral trip is an OBE by definition.  But because Real-Time-Zone-Experience is too long to type out, we tend to mean an OBE as RTZ and Astral as Astral.  The RTZ is not technically in the astral plane, nor is it a 100% perfect copy of the real world, but something in between.
Within the astral, yes you can create your own little world.  Visualize an island and you'll be the only one there, and the only one that can see it.  It will be fluid and change quickly with thought.  But were someone to follow you, they could see what you've created.  Were you to go into a well-developed astral realm where many like-minded souls congregate, it will be quite solid.  Familiar with the part where Bruce describes making astral objects?  The first attempt will vanish the moment you stop thinking about it.  But with repeated effort it will still be there.  Imagine a city built over many years of mental effort.  It will still be changeable, but it would take more effort.
Again with the body... if one imagines themselves to be a younger version of themselves, they will be, and others will percieve them as such.  It's not PURE imagination... it's using the astral energy of the plane around you/your own/ to construct the image.  Therefore, it can be perceived by others at the same level.  If one is comfortable with the idea of not having a body to represent themselves, then they'll possibly appear as a point of light, or maybe not even be visible until they show themselves as something.  Some higher spirits understand our need to see an object to represent a person, and may create an angel or something to ease communication.  This can't really be answered unless someone does an experiment to find out.  Even if there was nothing to see, you would still sense a presence, and be able to communicate.
The difference with phasing is just in how you get there, to my knowledge.  Full OBE is going through the vibrations and going step-by-step, to the etheric then to the astral, and possibly up from there.  Phasing is skipping this step, and just raising your awareness to the desired level, since the astral/mental/etc bodies are already 'loose' and less exit symptoms are felt.

Hey again, whoa those were great posts wildbank and person, you definately cleared a lot of things up, and prestented a whole lotta goody information, I'll definately check out that book. nice site btw..

Adam

Greetings Kifyre!

quote:

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Originally posted by kifyre

Hi Adrian,

I'm trying to sort all this out. It looks like we have two separate phenomena here. I'll call them projection and phasing. I define projection as creating an energetic double to bring back memories (obe), and I define phasing is shifting one's egoic consciousness into one of the several higher bodies.

Leaving difficulty aside for the moment, what are the fundamental limitations of these two methods? Is the level of phasing (astral, mental, higher) only limited by the strength of one's egoic consciousness? How is the projected double limited? Can it reach these higher realms if it's made of "fine" enough energy? It seems like one can only experience the Real Time Zone with a projected double.

Now, this leaves true astral separation, death, and lucid dreaming. My impression was that lucid dreaming is phasing at a very low level. Is this correct?

Also, are astral separation and physical death similar processes? Is astral separation a "temporary death," perhaps? Is the astral indeed the "next level up" after physical death, the realm of my (first?) higher self that extends consciousness into me and "other me's" in the past, present, and future?

Mark

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I agree with your analysis of OBE which appears to involve the generation of an etheric double, into which a copy of the consciousness is transferred for travel. It is due to the fact that there are two copies of the mind involved - i.e. the original and the copy, that the "mind-split" phenomena occurs as described by Robert in AD, an also the memory download problems potentially arise - i.e. in having to to "download" the experiences from the double to the original.

I agree also with your analysis of phasing. We are all multi-dimensional beings, and in phasing the person is transferring the original copy of consciosness into the Astral body, and which then becomes the centre of consciousness and awareness in the Astral realms. Because the original mind is involved with phasing, no memory problems exist, or indeed other phenomena such as the "mind-split".

True Astral separation and death are the same  - the difference being that in the case of the former it is possible to return to the physical body. With true Astral separation, the physical body ceases breathing and all other physical functions, and the Astral body takes over while maintaining the physical body in a state of suspended animation. If a person in this state is touched, instant physical death of the Astral traveller results, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this posting. Again though - as the traveller is with their original Astra-Mental body, there are no memory or "mindsplit" problems.

Lucid dreaming is similar to phasing, but at a much lower level of the Astral - usually either that which corresponds with the individual psyche, or the collective human unconscious. A Lucid dream can be converted to phasing if the person realises that potential while dreaming.

With regards to how far a traveller can progress. With all of the abobe methods, the maximum level that can be reached is the Astral realms - in Kaballistic terms the tenth and lowest Sephiroth known as "Malkuth" which translates to "Kingdom". Above Malkuth are the nine Mental spheres, which range from Mental to Celestial to Cosmic levels of consciousness. Due to the density of the Astral body, these cannot be reached by any form of Astral projection. The only way they can be reached while in physical incarnation is by advanced meditation. After physical death, the level of the Mental spheres attainable are determined by the level of perfection, and therefore vibration of the Mental body of the immortal Spirit. After many incarnations, a level of perfection can be attained such that incarnation is no longer required, and Spiritual progression can continue entirely within the higher spheres.

The level which a traveller can reach during Astral projection is determined by many factors, but fundamentally by the vibrational level and density of the body the traveller is employing. This in turn has to do with the type of projection utilised and the degree of Spiritual perfection of the traveller. After death, it is entirely due to the level of Spiritual perfection, and therefore vibration of the person, who can only reach the level of the Astral that corresponds with their level of vibration and in the density degree of the Akasha.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Hello,

I have had two OBE's.  One-- I had a body just like my own. And the other I had NO body at all but I could see and feel and was aware of everything and this one was much more enjoyable than the first..

What Tha Phak:  Going by your name, you didn't come here for anything but to create a little static based on something you yourself probably can't do or won't take the time to find out for yourself.. What a shame.

Robert, I love your book by the way and it is the reason for my second OBE.. Good job and good work!!!!!

Blossom

Lets try and lay off what the phak for a bit. Here is a person who was curious about what they saw as a flaw in mr Bruces work. tHey are merely questioning it, and I dont believe they did it in an offensive way.

speaking from my experience of my one concious projection when i managed to walk about, i did notice I had a body and i was walking. However I did have trouble lifting up my arms when I attempted this. It is something I will try to look at next time I manage to have a concious projection.

Another point worth considering is that since each person in the world is completly unique and has been shaped by their own life experiences, is it not possible to argue that each persons perception of projection would also be unique?

Lysear -
"Another point worth considering is that since each person in the world is completly unique and has been shaped by their own life experiences, is it not possible to argue that each persons perception of projection would also be unique?"

Good question.  I hope not :)  It reminds me of physics class.. the idea that we are all wired a bit differently, therefore blue to you is not the same to anyone else.  This could expand to every physical sense.  And since we all experience the world differently, we must me amazingly unique.  
I think we conform a lot more than that.  Maybe we see different hues, but most of us see pretty much the same color.  On Earth, our perceptions are indeed very unique.  But in the astral, there are trillions of beings, so many that there's bound to be a cluster sharing the same perspective as you.  Like attracts like, as Bruce likes to say.  So if you went somewhere you were naturally drawn to, you'd probably see everything the same way the natives do.  
But in other areas.. like higher planes or shared dreams, symbolism changes everything.  You see only what you can relate to.  If you can't make sense of something, your subconscious will try to find something close to it, and you'll never know a switch was made.  In one RTZ OBE, I knew my friend had a wooden deck in his backyard, but as I flew over it it became a pool with a deck around it.  When I focused on something else, the pool was gone for good.
Ever study mutual dreams?  The thought or idea will always get across, but the symbols representing them will always be very different, due to differences in perception.  But this also shows that once we get past needing visuals and a voice to convey ideas, and one sends the thought alone, it gets across much clearer.  

Well.  I'm  disappointed in the reaction to that post.  WhatThaPhak has obviously read the book closely, and not only that but has studied the book carefully, down to the choice of words used in separate sections of the book.

"you didn't come here for anything but to create a little static based on something you yourself probably can't do or won't take the time to find out for yourself.. What a shame."  - it was a serious question on a serious subject that he has taken time to think about

"But I have never ever experienced any kind of pain at all while projecting.How about trying a little direct personal experience yourself? If you have read so much, surely you must know how to astrally project yourself by now." - as regular visitor here knows, reading so much and knowledge does not automatically mean an OBE.

i have seen many people here with less commitment that have received more help.
how about some support and encouragement for a student of the OBE?  I am glad not everyone here are mindless Robert Bruce cultists (no offence against Mr Bruce, just the cultists) and are willing to challenge a statement if they believe it is wrong.  Remember WhatThaPhak did not say it was wrong from what he has experienced, he was merely commented on what we can all read in the book.

"Its just an OBE."

peace and love
liefmichael

I will repeat what I said earlier: it was how the ideas were presented, not what the ideas were which was a problem. When people who are less committed to astral projection get more help with it, the reason is usually in how the help is asked for.

Tom, with all due respect as a member of your standing deserves, I have re-read the post and I feel I personally would not be insulted at all by his approach, though it may be written in a non-formal conversational style.

love and peace
lief michael

I agree with Tom.. The guy came across confrontational.

Hi there, What Tha Phak,
My first "obe" was involuntary when I was 15 (one year younger than you, young man), and there was an awful lot more to it than just leaving my body.It lasted for over an hour and started while I was in normal waking consiousness, and leaving my body was the end of it.And I did s**t my pants.It freaked me out, scared the hell out of me and I didn't have a clue what it was.I had no-one to talk to about it, and no way of understanding what had happened to me. I was too scared to talk to anyone, for fear of ridicule, misunderstanding, or even being thought I was crazy.But I desperately wanted to understand what had happened.This was in 1976.I scoured book-shops trying to find people who had experienced the same thing, but I just kept coming to a dead end.There seemed to be no-one.A couple of years later I stumbled across the first book written by Robert Munroe.He seemed to have experienced something like me.It didn't answer all my questions but at least it was a start.It was the answer to my prayers.At last I knew that I wasn't alone, or a freak, or going crazy.I will always be extremely grateful for that.But if it wasn't for those first few people who had the courage to talk about these "things" that were happening to them, who decided to start putting pen to paper and write about their "experiences", none of this information would be so freely available now.Available for you, young man, to read and benefit from...and criticize!!!I wish it had been around for me at your age!!!!So I apologize for the harshness of my reply to your criticism.It just seemed so unfair to me.These people are learning as they are writing and experiencing, and they don't have all the answers, but they are doing their best.So please bear this in mind.

Okay, I just picked up on this. Let's assume, please, the person asking just got misunderstood and so forth. I have a copy of the book here and if the original poster of this thread could please point me in the direction of actual page numbers... in addition to the salient points... I'll do my best to assist.

Yours,
Frank

Blossom- "Going by my name," huh? Tell me, what do you think my name means.  The only explaination you could possibly give is that which you THINK it means in your own unique interpretation.  My name is my business and it's what I chose for everyone to refer to me as.  The sole intention of me writing posts, let alone even coming to this website, is NOT to create a little "static," or whatever, it is for my own personal growing knowledge of OBEs and the input of others that have experience doing it.
    So you think I take no time to try to AP ("what a shame")..?  Well that's another big mistake, I'll have you know that I am dedicating a good amount of time everyday, as a teen these days, in being able to willfully "exit."  I have not yet been successful.  I try every night, along with extensive energy raising practice and meditation.  I am as serious as serious can get about exploring the truths behind OBE.  I don't think you have read my first two posts, otherwise common sense would tell you not to say such nonsense remarks.  Try and "blossom" some non-judgmental thoughts into yourself for a change.

Whether or not my posts were confrontational or non-formal, that's what I wrote and that's how I feel; I am writing casually, I'm NOT writing an essay.  By all means, I am in no way at all challenging Robert Bruce, but AM questioning his statements hoping for more understanding! liefmichael and Lysear, thank you for backing me up :P

Goldenroses, I feel you when you talk about not wanting to be thought of as crazy and such.  I know exactly how you feel.  OBEs happen whether some people know, don't know, or even accept it.  I seldom bring up this topic around people out of fear.  I am also desperatley searching for someone (in the flesh, not an i-net forum) who has experience at being able to willfully project.  I would love to have a one on one conversation with them and some hands on advise they can teach.  An Astral Projection class would be a dream come true (actually a successful exit would be a dream come true ;P).

So what does anyone think about listening to trance and hemi-sync music/frequency sounds to help induce OBE?  I do think it helps to put one in a trance, giving time and a clear mind.

I would love to see more posts about your (everyone's) thoughts and theories; wildbank and person, you attracted my most attention, Your posts were great.

So lets see some more thoughtful posts and less of those irrevelent, petty comments of complaints!

Adam

Now that was a good post.
I'm sorry people, but we can't just hide away the stuff we don't want to hear, get it out and talk about it.  What is right if we don't know what is wrong?  Robert Bruce is only human, and i'm sure he errs occassionally - as do we all. Now I know you are spiritual people, but that doesn't mean you have to be over-sensitive "softies".
peace and love
lief michael

Yep... and again if the person in question could be more specific I (for one) will do my best to answer.

Yours,
Frank

I think it's sad when someone comes to this board seeking answers and instead get ridiculed.  I bet if his name was "I love Blossom" or "TOM ROCKS!" no one would have thought it was confrontational.....

You put your thoughts togeather better than a lot of adults I know What Tha Phak, keep it up, never surrender. [|)]

That would be disturbing, not confrontational.

My cat chooses this moment to say hi.

Could someone re-state what the question was that started this thread?

[8D] Thanks for the compliment, Shawn McCaffrey.  It's nice to see this post topic finally back on track to the subject I presented.  I'll post again later tonight because I gotta go help my mom cook or else..[B)] heh.. heh..   I will be as clear as possible.

This short extract is not ment to offense anyone but dedicated especially to What Tha Phak[:)] (not humble but modest)

Regards,
Daniel

http://www.iacworld.org/English/Sciences/AParadigmForConsciousnessResearch.asp

"...Subsociety. Besides this, it is necessary to definitively destroy the link between pure parapsychism and the following four spurious realities:

1. Occultism or popular group autism.

2. Inappropriate commercialism.

3. Sensationalism.

4. Shrewd mystification.

Disconnection. As difficult as this may prove to be, it has to be done. As things are, unfortunately, serious persons distance themselves and a field as promising as this is characterized as an ingenuous, simplistic subsociety.

Significations. One cannot enter into a world of significance without formulating the necessary postulates.

Ingenuousness. In religion, these postulates are called blind or rationalized faith. In the majority of religions, the sacred, infallible truth is decreed through doctrine (dogmatization, dogmatics, theology). Its acceptance is based on the unquestionable faith of ingenuous religiosity.

Heresy. Any sign of doubt or questioning is considered heresy or dissidence, when not bordering on anathema."

Welcome to the astral pulse Silva! the post was fine, by the way.
Do not take what I said literally, or if you wish to, re-read my post on "softies".  My belief is that Robert Bruce has laid some great ground work for the study of OBE.  He is human.  He is not divinity.  He can, and will err, like everyone of us.  Everyone here can contribute to the study of OBE, and by visiting this forum and posting, whether it sounds 'confrontational' or not.  Can you really imagine scientists researching *insert research topic here* being petty about whether an analysis of a thesis didnt include the words please and thankyou?
last point for this thread (and i really enjoyed it, thank you all [:D])

What Tha Phak:  The topic of this thread "Robert Bruce is confusing and contradicts himself" was slightly too pointed for some here, although I know what you meant.  Maybe pose it next time as a question or "I believe.... "
I believe there is no etheric body. I believe you never leave your body.  I believe your brain generates an environment for you (much like a computer game, but we dont think they are real - however realistic they look and sound).  I have not decided whether I believe that this generated environment is based on outside data, like your brain acts as a astral radar dish.
Either way, OBEing is fun, has opened my mind to soooooo many other things that I never thought possible, and needs to be studied, shared & CONFRONTED.  Many fields of science have had changes in theories over the years.
How many here still believe the earth is flat? (i dont actually want to hear the answer to that, i'm sure theres a few like that here)

peaces of love to you all.
keep debating NOT flaming
lief michael

I'd like to remind everyone what we were like before our first OBE.  For me at least, I was skeptical, and had a confrontational attitude when talking to people with any set belief system.  I liked to challenge everything.  I found no offense to Adam's posts.
Instead of using up another page with debating wether he was rude or not, shall we continue answering the actual questions?

"So what does anyone think about listening to trance and hemi-sync music/frequency sounds to help induce OBE? I do think it helps to put one in a trance, giving time and a clear mind."

I got the program BrainWaveGenerator for free somewhere on my computer.  If anyone wants, I can upload it to the download section. It'll produce static sound that alternates the pulses from left ear to right at a certain frequency.  Same idea as hemi-sync.  You can overlay your favorite songs with it, but it gets irritating when you let it loop.  The best part about it is it's help file - a very good explanation on alpha/beta states of mind and what frequencies relate to them.  
I have some hemi-sync stuff courtesy of WinMX :)  Havent had the time to really experiment with them, but i did burn focus 12 to cd once for a 5 hour car ride.  Passed the time really well and it really did change my awareness a bit, but the whole time I felt I still had to try and go along with it.. it wouldnt just put me in an altered state 'for me.'
The main problem I have with them is the practicality of listening to them while going to sleep.  Large headphones are uncomfortable, as well as the earbuds, and any make it difficult to lay on your side.  Hemisync doesn't work just being played on a stereo.  My computer is opposite my bed, so to even get the head phones to work I had to string my stereo as far as possible, and headphones from there, and I only had a few inches to work with :/
I'd say they're great for 'getting the feel' of a specific state of mind.  If you're not used to meditating or want to know what the trance state feels like, it's a great tool.  But once you're familiar, I think it's best done yourself.
One last thought... if you were to project with the tapes on, it's possible your mind would associate the tapes with the action, and make OBE even more likely while the tapes are going.  
Has anyone had good success with the use of such tapes?

hmmm i tried something like that a while back, but i didnt like the feeling it gave me. sorta like using a drug and trying to OBE.  i'll let my brain do it 'naturally' i think. i remember reading a warning about epileptics as well... pleaaaase if you are, DO NOT USE IT!
peaces of love
lief michael

Hello everyone. This is a Heavyweight discussion (and at times a somewhat pointed debate). So I would like to post my opinion for consideration. I have had several dozen OBEs over eight years so I do have experience being out of body.
    First I most certainly Do beleive that people have an objective second body. In fact I am still considering whether there are actually Three bodies. I am certain that there are At Least Two - The physical body And The Astral body And/Or the Ethereal Body.
I tend to lean toward the idea of 3 but am not certain. In any case the Second body does exist apart from the mind/consciousness. I equate the Ethereal body with the Soul and the Astral body with the Spirit.
    My opinion is that there is an Ethereal plane. The ethereal equals the Real Time Zone (Robert Bruce) and also equals Locale I (The Here and Now of Robert Monroe). The ethereal is a double (imperfect double) of the physical universe.
    There is an Astral plane/realm. It is 'higher' than the ethereal. Whether the astral includes the Christian Heaven and Hell is a question that I have cannot attempt to answer due to lack of experience.
  I would like to note that debate, discussion and argument is healthy. I respect the opinions of everyone who posts here but always reserve the right to decide for myself based, of course, on my personal experiences. [8D]

OK first I'd like to say the entire reason for me making that specific title post is BECAUSE it seemed so challenging.  That would attract a lot of people, just like corperation attracting the public.... anywayz don't judge a book by it's cover. and pull the monkey out of your all's anal. (those that care more about my presentaion than my reason) heh, i think it's funny how personal some people can take some things... chill dudes go smoke a joint [:P]

Now then, in Astral Dynamics, Bruce describes this second subtle body which the pure energy from the etheric/physical body generates.  He states you must generate this body by creating a sufficient amount of energy through his "tactile imaging," in order to create this body, which I have found, through the past 3 months and vigorious practice, to work extrememly well.  He even gives advise saying (paraphrasing) that if you do not "feel" certain body parts or areas "out" then you must generate more energy and concentration.

K now back to the original post.  If you are ONLY a single point of consciousness (or simply awareness) while out of body, with no "spirit," or "etheric matter" as a body, then why would it even be so necessary to "create" this second body, let alone get body parts "out"...?  I do accept when people describe ascending (or descending) into higher astral planes, that their form becomes more and more abstract and mental, even higher into the purely highest mental planes (where a body wouldn't be nessesary), for lack of a better describtion (someone help me?).  What I think is that there IS some sort of body to you in the LOWER (or simple/less?) planes.... why else would so much generation be needed?  But as your awareness changes and becomes higher and higher, the reality around you becomes more and more abstract into these mental planes.  If there IS etheric matter (pure energy) inside my physical body at waking state.. then it would seem logical to say that there IS an astral/spiritual/etheric body that you assume in the RTZ (real-time zone), which might I add is part of the physical universe... .. .just not.. in the physical. you see..? It is still "part" of the Universe.  Now in the Astral (existing at a higher level of vibration than the physical universe), i think it is a possibility  that you are merely a point of awareness, reflecting unto the astral your thoughts and perceptions, LESS an actual body that you assume. Again, I am open for anyone's thoughts that have also deeply considered MY thoughts and opinions...

Greytraveller-

1.) What is your describtion of the 3rd body?

2.) What differenciates soul and spirit?

Hi WhatThePhak. I tend to believe that individuals are actually three separate and distinct entities. (Though I have not entirely become convinced about this/it might be only 2 bodies.)
    The first body is the physical body. Simple, 'nuff said.
    The second body is the Ethereal body. The ethereal body Is an actual, objective entity. It is shape and size though is greatly more flexible and elastic than the physical body. The ethereal body is what is called by many people the Soul. It can exist in the physical universe And the ethereal plane indefinately. The ethereal body can also exist on the astral plane(S) (though whether indefinately or for a limited time I am not sure.) My 'knowledge' of the ethereal body comes from many personal ethereal projections. My latest ethereal projection was a little over a month ago. At that time I saw my ethereal body reflected in a (physical/ethereal) mirror. (That was a first for me.) I have seen my own ethereal body and the ethereal bodies of other people many times.
    The third body is the astral body. The astral body corresponds directly with the concept of the Spirit. There are astral planes. I have been lucky enough to experience astral porjections a handful of times. All astral projections have been 'adventures' while, in comparison, the ethereal projections seem rather tame. The closest description that I know of the astral planes is Robert Monroe's Locale III. Astral planes can appear similar to ethereal or physical locales but there are creatures on the astral planes that you would not (likely) encounter elsewhere - Deities, God, Jesus, Dragons, etc. (No doubt that last sentence will draw some criticism but so be it !) That said my 'knowledge' of the astral body is somewhat limited. But again i am quite inclined to believe that both the astral body and the ethereal body exist.
   I would continue but I begin to ramble. Hope you can make some sense out of all this. Don't be discouraged. When you have your first projection then many things that are now confusing will become very clear to you. Of course many questions will remain and new questions will appear. Any 'secret' to successful projecting is simply to keep trying. There are always more failures than successes. It is always a questions of numbers. Keep trying (hint: to everyone that reads this [;)]) and you Will eventually successfully project. Good luck.

To Adam (What the Phak):  You pose very good questions!!! We will attempt to be helpful in every way! Are you keeping a "beyond the physical dimension" log???? Dream/Astral/OBE log, whatever. Most likely you are not remembering all your wild journeys! Is that the case? As for astral realm, I am suspecting that it is a realm of everyone's thoughts thrown in, hiding places, under carpet stuff, etc.. It is a world of NO SECRETS? But with lots of emotion? I am going to ask GreyTraveller now some questions....

Grey Traveller: I was intriqued by your comments on ethereal and astral worlds. I didn't hear much detail on the ethereal, as I am very curious what it is like to you and how you differentiate it apart from the astral realm? I'd like your descriptions!

Person: Thanks for the postings, this is a very exciting thread!

Back to Adam: why create a double? I think it is for heightened perception, to feel more close to human? Alot of my beyond physical experiences are like stuff of incredible speed, changing scenarios, being aware of how biggest we can be, and yet, I don't or didn't pay much attention to what I looked like or look for my hands always. There are also several instances that I am awake doing this, simply sitting in chair, even noticing that my cheekbones have a weird density, and then my third eye feels like Mt. Everest peaking.  The idea is to experience anything and relish it and tell others about it. It is just like a wonderful aspect of who we did not know who or how we are. Then we gotta classify what experience was that!!! I also suspect that people are going to use OBE and body doubles to solve cases, to transcend the physical barriers in getting information they need for physical issues. To see a friend, to check something out, to win the lottery? Not sure what everyone's individual take is.

So, do that log! It will help you make the most of what you almost forgot, of what nearly escaped you. The idea is to very quickly remember the dream or experience well before you open your eyes, as if memorizing it deliberately, then writing it down. Some of those things are easy to forget by light of day.  The spiritual experiences in my waking moments are by contrast easiest to remember because they are so strong and my body and perceptics are blown away!  Does this help?

I wish to comment on the Beyond stuff we see on TV, with these amazing psychics reading from a random audience member to their enthrallment or disbelief.  What I am noticing pathetically is how many people are looking for their "Herbie" or "Fifi" on the other side, and feeling so flattered they are remembered back. What I am getting at is that this physical form is not who we really are, as it dismisses that greater Self we are. I prefer to feel "connected" to the entire wonderful being unmanifest, and it is quite great and awesome.  I have had fortunate encounters with living or departed beings who know how to give me their fullest self over a distance. It feels trancelike, if I am asked to describe the feeling, and usually accompanied by great overwhelm, and occasionally, an effervescent rush all over the body.  If we can do this, it could mean that we have untapped vast resources to do all the finer techniques that we are discussing in the forums.  We are here! It means we are ready! Eager teachers and eager students! Awake and very much on the cutting edge! You will all have not just your OBE sooner or not much later but a plethora of many tricks. This vibe here is bound to open up more new vibes and delightful ramifications of our multidimensional gifts.
Aloha!
The greatest pearl was once a grain of sand.

There is no contradiction between being a point of consciousness and experiencing through a body. The challenge is to learn to experience reality through gradually less dense bodies until we no longer need any sort of body. We start with a physical body which is composed of matter from the physical plane. Then we learn astral projection and experience more things through the astral body, which is composed of astral material. This is less dense than physical material. As we make progress, the astral body becomes less dense and we are able to move higher up through the planes. Then we move on to the mental planes and use a body that is less dense than the astral body. It is made up of the material of the mental planes. Just as the physical body needs food, water, air, clothes, and so on, the astral and mental bodies need to be maintained on their own levels. Fortunately it is easier to get what we need for a strong astral or mental body than it is to get food for the physical body. While we are learning to be just a consciousness with no body, we have to use and maintain our bodies.

Tom:
Wow, even your recent posting is helping through all this information, as it is making things even more coherent and understandable in such few words! I liked the way you explained how we go about adjusting to different densities for this exploration. Thanks!

Adam -
I get the impression you're more conscerned with the etheric body, and why we need to focus on it so much for preparation to OBE.  The etheric is much more a 'body' than the astral is.  According to Bruce, it's deeply connected with the physical body.  Chakras align with major organs, and minor chakras align with certain glands.  The purpose of stimulating this body is to activate all the energy centers, which convert raw energy into higher forms for your use in OBE.  Ever notice a lack of energy when you're sick or full?  The energy is routed to take care of what needs energy the most.  Fasting is considered a spiritual practice because your body isnt expending as much energy on digestion.  There's no need to stimulate the astral body, unless you were just trying to gain a sense of awareness for it.  It's disconnected enough from the body that it doesnt matter what shape, if any, it's in.  It'l tend to reshape into your self image, because we're so used to it.  

All we really are is a point of consciousness.  Even now, awake in our physical bodies, that's all we are.  The etheric has a shape because it's so closely linked with the physical body.  As long as we're alive, it will maintain a similar shape.  

Does this clear anything up for you?

Alot of things are confusing in the area of aliveness and being attached to a body in human form. I can guess or bet that if we are without bodies long enough, not needing to reincarnate, we'd let memories of bodies recede into background or off the main picture or focus. People get scared of death because it means or feels that one is no longer 'alive', but 'alive' then would mean inhabiting a body. We are immortal, and migratory in conscious perception.

This "aliveness" issue could make sense out of everything. We are everywhere we like, and we can select our channels and block out other sensory stimuli for shift of focus, one or few things at a time.

There was one mindblowing experience that I had that challenged my notion that I can only do one thing at a time: in going around an obstacle like a table in a room, when I had my focus on where I was going toward, I felt as I had gone around BOTH sides of the table to my destination, because I couldn't make up my mind which side to pass. I did both sides simultaneously. So, I was able to split my consciousness into two. I would not know which was a copy! There were two of me. This happened about 24 years ago.  Now, isn't that what we are doing when we elect to do OBE, astral travel or phasing? Deciding to do something else while doing one chore, like sitting and closing one's eyes while the other point of you is exploring some unknown place? Another thing, our consciousness may be part creator/author in creation of our present physical body. All the bodies we are covering here are several of many that we can operate! It just takes having a go at it.

yes, I knew that, technically speaking, are we really are is but a point of consciuosness (or awareness) all along, but also I agree with the post that there is some sort of etheric density to you while in the lower astral and RTZ planes.  

I can't believe how popular this thread is.. heh

Cool topic.  Some aspects of what has been mentioned I was also mulling over for a while.  Someone asked me how I thought the different bodies fit together ie how can you make sense of the idea that we have one or more bodies?

The way I described it at the time was to place a pen on a tray.  I said the pen was me and the tray the physical universe as I know it.  I then placed a can of coke outside the tray and said that was me in the RTZ with my RTZ body.  I then placed a coin further away from the tray and said that was me in the lower astral.  And then I placed a spoon further away from the tray again and said that was me in a higher astral plane etc etc.

Now the way that I actually see this model working (for the time being) are that these different bodies are just ways of US coping with this new environment.  So in the RTZ we may find that we have a body like the physical... but it's sluggish.  It's sluggish until you make it more mental i.e. you will your arm up instead of trying to move it up etc.

Later you may find yourself in a body with less substance and so on.  I think these bodies are all one in the same and that we manifest them to make sense of movement, seeing, touching etc.  So the coke, coin and spoon are all one in the same.

I see energy raising as allowing us to bridge the gap(s) between these so called bodies to the real point of consciousness that we are.

...this is how I've put it together for the time being......

regards
t

Probably yes, Terrance. About the objects on the tray. (I am not a Cokehead.)

My other take is that we seem to resemble those Russian wooden dolls, one within another, in ever progressive quantity. The faces could be painted differently on each doll figure. To represent the different densities we occupy in different realms. Each doll perceives a different world. Something like that?

terrance and wildbank, your post made excellent sense.

"I see energy raising as allowing us to bridge the gap(s) between these so called bodies to the real point of consciousness that we are." -terrence

I agree also with that statement.  It was a really great thread!  I hope other people have learned as much as I did, through it's debates.

Everyone contradicts themselves quite frequently.  In an effort to explain one's own thoughts, one many times sees their own thoughts more clearly leading to seeming contradiction and clarification.  Do not take EVERYTHING said as ABSOLUTE truth and you will have no problem.  Take EVERYTHING as possible truth and digest it as you can into your own life path.  See possibilities... expand the sight... maybe you'll see something we all didn't.

Mr. Phak asks good questions, maybe beyond my ability to answer definately-but maybe that is the answer-there is not a correct answer. It seems like there some kind of astral body according to classical sources. I have been rereading Monroe's Ultimate Journey where he encounters dead people who still think they are alive, which means they can't recognize they are missing a body, but maybe they are creating it, if you remember his story of the dead guy with the erection. So maybe it all a matter of our awareness, being able to tell the real from the 'illusion' of maya- whether self created or a product of mass conciousness. As for my own experience, I find myself floating around without really being aware of what kind of body I inhabit while obe.

Another question of mine, specifically to Robert bruce.. WHOO hOOOOohooo Robert Bruce...  is ther any one OUT THERE..?  In Astral Dynamics, toward the end of the book you go one to explain one of your experiences- the one where you have the pain in your right hip and you go to an astral world to seek help?  And you encounter this priest guy?  Well I was really curious and wondering, when he told you that YOU were the only who is able to rid the "curse" by finding out when it happened, why, and who did it.  HE said it was probably from a witch not of this world.  Well, did you ever fully recover?  Why would someone do such evil thing to you?  Did you remember who did it?

Also,  obviously, there IS much to fear in the astral... There ARE harmful elements and energies out there...  you go on later to say beware of harmful situations and stay clear of problems that could cause your energy body "damage".  If this is true (and proving it with the whole hip thing and psychic attacks) then why do you state in the beggining of the book, there is nothing to be scared of, nothing in the astral can possibly harm you...?  Well, just another contradicting question of mine, with all due respect.  I just want to learn from other people's experiences, since i'm not developed enough to explore them myself [:(]

My feeling is to get used to all the characters in the otherworlds when you can. They are not your enemy, FEAR is! Fear is your worst enemy, I guess. It is the opposite of projecting love beams, beams of Light. A reverse flow. (Shrink with fear, expand with Love) Love gets it over with. I may make it sound easier than done, but I think that is the principle at work.  I suggest everyone take a course for the fainthearted, go on tours to Museum of Natural History, look at all the creepy crawler specimens magnified 100X, or try the Fear Factor TV series as a contestant and let them make you eat something intersting or put you in a pit of snakes or get fooled by Joe Millionaire in front of millions like a jerk on National TV. Just remember, you are Immortal. And if you are afraid, you will be immortally affected.

I just realized something, in attempting at a definition of the word "FEAR". Could fear be an unwillingness to SHIFT your current vibration radically as you seem to feel you are unprepared to be in full control. Those in fear don't want to be jerked abit out of their comfort zone. Solution? expand the comfort zone for greater flexibility. In exit of body, it pays to understand lots more of the realms you are going into, or at least be willing to play Russian Roulette with an empty pistol. Make sure it is not loaded. Remove all your vulnerabilities! Those are the bullets.

Personally, I feel that our greatest assest in conquering our "fear" is to believe in ourselves and to trust ourselves as we develop our abilites.  

My first obe was spontaneous.  The second only came after I decided nothing could hurt me or harm me.  There was a year and a half between these two experiences with alot of learning in between.  

But the second time was only successful after I decided to let go and just be.  I decided to be an energy conductor and all the good energy in the universe was waiting to connect with me.  I just had to welcome it.  I trusted myself that nothing bad would come to me and it did not..  

It was wonderful.

Trust in yourself.

And Phak, if you don't agree with Robert's method, learn and develop your own methods and then share them with us for other's to learn from.  Every OBE experience you will read about is different.  Your's also will be different than any you have read about in a book or in a forum.  

My advice to Phak:  Trust in yourself and believe nothing will hurt you and it won't.  You are your best friend.  You can only read other's advice and opinions but the bottom line is, you have to do it yourself.  You can read all day long but practice is the key.  I believe we only have to remember how.  

This has been bugging me for a very long time, concerning Bruce's Book Astral Dynamics.  Around the beginning of the book he states that your astral body (OBE body) consists of the etheric COPY of your physical/etheric self (and your consciousness is transferred to this new subtle energy body, created by your PURE energies [the mind split]) . He then goes on to explain in a later chapter, about blind people, that during an OBE their sense of sight would not be the same as to someone WITH sight, let alone if they even HAVE sight.  He says they "feel" their way around or something.  He makes sense in saying this by explaining that since the blind p erson's real self is blind and has no training with the visual sense that it would be no different than in the astral world (correct?). O.K. I could see that feasible. BUT much later in the book he goes on to say that there is no etheric matter when you project... he says you are but just a single point of consciousness outside of its own physical/etheric body.  Then saying the state of your phycial body has no effect on the astral body because there is no astral or etheric organs in your body that you assume during a projection... IN FACT he says the ONLY body there is... is that of the one you imagine there to be.... so you believe you have this astral body, so you look at it, and the way you perceive it is the exactly way you THINK it to be. He says there is no body, just your imagination remembering your physical self. This is when I got confused, first he says it's a copy ya dee ya deyada.. now theres no body in the astral world..... Well Mr. Bruce, with all do respect... than how could you even be able to SEE other astral beings/entities IF THEY HAVE NO BODY???  Also, how would you explain people experiencing PAIN, like that of over-surging energy, or vibes, up or down their spine.  People describe being out of body, in the astral (or maybe real-time) and experiencing PAIN in their BODY!!  I think it's obvious to me that you DO resume some sort of body, how else would you be able to feel pain in your body while projecting?  What I was thinking it was, they feel really what their asleep/tranced physical body is feeling via the Silver Cord.  I'm  mean I'm no veteren here, in fact, I've never even projected before.  But I DO do a hellevalotta research and studying on this topic, trust me on that.  So lets see some people respond to this, yeah? Bruce, too if you read this.

Adam