Helping each others: How advanced travalers can help beginners

[Lilipad]

  As AP beginners, we are burden with 2 big issues: We don't know to do AP (even though we could have read a lot about it, it's not something we felt within), and we still doubt that we could do AP, either because we doubt the reality of AP phenomenon, or because we doubt that we, as individual, are capable to do the same as others (both legitimate doubts since you've never experienced for yourself).
  Unfortunately, it seems that the belief that we are indeed capable of AP is part of the formula to do AP, thus, hardening the task of beginners.

  My idea is the following: Advanced astral travelers can help beginners to build a bigger faith and commitment to AP by providing a strong and personal proof of the authenticity of the phenomenon.
  How can we give a definite proof (without doing AP ourself)? My idea so far is to create a place where beginner can post "challenges" that astral travelers can accept as exercises or games. The challenge could be as simple as writing down something on a street (with chalk or something alike), so that only the beginner knows what has been written, and the advanced traveler quickly goes to the specified address (easy with the astral body) and read the text, then report it to the beginner. By doing so, the beginner can't say it is not working. Gifted with this direct and personal proof of a successful AP, the beginner will have one lock removed for his/her progress as now he/she can have a strong faith in AP, and just need to work on his/her own self-confidence.
  (I did not yet discussed the details of the "challenges"/"games" on purpose, so that we examin the idea first)

  What do you think of this idea? Something to done/tried?
  Maybe someone already did?
  If it does make sense, I'll be looking for a pool of advanced travelers to start the project. Anyone interested?

[Volgerle]

Sorry, I don't think someone will be willing to do what you want. Mostly because we are beyond having to prove sth to s.o. 

However, there is (or was?) a kind of personal mentoring program going on about how to reach AP, some of the moderators here can tell you more about it. Maybe this is sth for you.

Still I wonder: do you REALLY want to learn it? Or are you here for sth else?

I ask because in the 2nd longer paragraph you seem to show that your ONLY interest is getting proof from someone, right? So you are out for "debunking" only? Sorry, I admit maybe I am too suspicious of first-posters who only ask for the veracity of the phenomenon. So excuse please my reply here, I do not mean to come across as rude, but we have already had enough of these "prove-it-to-me-now-people" (usually with their 1st posts like yours, too) here a lot before. It's unnerving.

Also, the main problem for not achieving AP/OBE you state is wrong. For newbies it is NOT that people do not believe in it "being real". They already KNOW that there is a larger (spiritual) reality out there waiting to be explored and we are more than our physical bodies. They are farther than you think. There are exceptions to the rule of course.

Actually there are other problems more prevalent that keep newbies from successful OBEs, a lot have to do with fear issues, some with wrong techniques and strategies, I believe that a bit of talent or a disposition for it is also a factor (although some contend this), etc.

Validating the larger reality? Well, first of all you can also do a lot of desk research on it. E.g. read a lot from paranormal science literature that is out there (Dean Radin, for example). Get informed about Remote Viewing which is btw much better in providing validations, these guys are the real professionals for this, not us APers. NDEs also provided absolutely great validations (see literature). Yes, APs also do, but not to the same degree.

Furthermore most APers here do not care anymore for validations because we hardly ever go into the RTZ, which is the "place" that is/looks like the physical, and even then we do not always do it for validations. Normally we go "somewhere else", other planes/dimensions/realities, or even planets in this universe (or another one). Also to higher "heavens" and collective areas such as libraries. We use AP for healing, helping other souls by doing retrievals, and many more.

Yes, there are of course validations possible, for the regular APer who is no longer out for them they still happen just "incidently". But you can also plan it of course, e.g. the card-look-up-test, which many here have done with success, including me. You put a card from a stack on a shelf without looking at it and then look it up in AP state in your room.

I recommend you read the link in my signature to see a vast collection of so-called 'anecdotal evidence' but also some scientific experiments, here it is again: http://da-lai.lima-city.de/OBE/index.html

Last not least, the best way to get proof is to prove it you yourself and learn the arts for that. This should be motivation enough. So, are you ready for it? 

[Xanth]

I agree with Volgerle, you either have the drive and determination to learn to Project or you don't. 

The only person who can prove the veracity of projection to you is yourself through direct personal experiences with it.
The sort of evidence you're asking for has been done enough times in this world to "suggest" that Projection is a REAL phenomenon... what most people lack now is the determination to do it and see for themselves.

We can certainly teach you. 

[Szaxx]

The RTZ (real time zone) is linked to the physical world, note linked. I have 50 years of experiences starting from my first memories. The RTZ proved to me it's connection with the physical at 5 years of age. There's no disputing this as false but it was my personal experience. After 1969 the RTZ was left for bigger and better experiences.
It's one 'place' I'm moved on from if I attempt or even get there. There's always help being required and most of those well seasoned are not really into party tricks.
However, a beginner who has started out in the art most likely will be visiting the RTZ as it's a sort of training ground. You learn the new physics here and then progress into the astral proper.
I'll give you a link that you can read. It's probably the best way forward for you ad you address the topic head on. Many already there are having success and there's no reason you can't too.
It's an invitation to learn the art and unlike many other sites, there's no charge at all. All you require is determination and an open mind.
I'll offer this to you as mentioned above, you can verify it for yourself. Get into the driving seat, and enjoy the experience of more than a lifetime.

Read the one at the top initially then select as you please.

http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/forums/destynee-s-plan-f65.html?sid=81bb268a6f9a10421364515a77354ba8

[deepspace]

Beginners seem to be the only people obsessed with this idea of proving whether AP is "real". The concept of "reality" is only one of perspective.

[Aaron330]

As a beginner myself, I have no desire to see a "proof" of this being real. I already have all the proof I need. Why would there be thousands of people on different forum boards and hundreds of thousands of threads discussing techniques, experiences and the like if it was all just pretend? People would not waste their time on something that wasn't real. Plus just by reading NDE's I saw all the proof and evidence I needed that out of body experiences are real and possible, so astral projection was not much of a stretch for me to believe at that point. I think the vet's are right, you either have the determination to learn or you don't.

[Lilipad]

Sorry, I don't think someone will be willing to do what you want. Mostly because we are beyond having to prove sth to s.o. 
[...]
Still I wonder: do you REALLY want to learn it? Or are you here for sth else?

I ask because in the 2nd longer paragraph you seem to show that your ONLY interest is getting proof from someone, right? So you are out for "debunking" only? Sorry, I admit maybe I am too suspicious of first-posters who only ask for the veracity of the phenomenon. So excuse please my reply here, I do not mean to come across as rude, but we have already had enough of these "prove-it-to-me-now-people" (usually with their 1st posts like yours, too) here a lot before. It's unnerving.

First, thank you for your answer.
Second, I'm sorry if I've arosed supsicious here or offended anyone. This was not my intention. I did not meant that I believe that AP is not real. I am an open sceptic and part of me believe, another part have a doubt. I've never have an AP experience before, and because I'm used to the "scientific method", I have some faith on a theory (hat AP is real, and a larger reality do exist) and I'm looking for evidence that what I believe is true or not.
In fact, I'm just looking for my own truth, and I believed some people may have the same open scepticism approach I do (most people with a deep scientific background). This is why I suggested that people could help each others, and not just myself (because I feel like I'm not the only one with this issue). I'm glad if I'm the only one, though

You definitly don't need to prove that AP is real to anyone. How can I say that, this not an ego issue, and I'm sure you're great people. It was just an attempt to solve what I thought was a commun issue.

Also, the main problem for not achieving AP/OBE you state is wrong. For newbies it is NOT that people do not believe in it "being real". They already KNOW that there is a larger (spiritual) reality out there waiting to be explored and we are more than our physical bodies. They are farther than you think. There are exceptions to the rule of course.

Actually there are other problems more prevalent that keep newbies from successful OBEs, a lot have to do with fear issues, some with wrong techniques and strategies, I believe that a bit of talent or a disposition for it is also a factor (although some contend this), etc.

I can only talk for myself, but I've read few books about AP/OBE, saw videos, and I immersed myself into a lot of metaphysic questions, read validations from scientifics and other sources ... I'm convinced of the larger reality, though, even though I've been trying for few years now to do AP, I've not suceeded yet. Maybe I'm no good at it ! Maybe I'm doing the wrong things ! Maybe I just need to continue my effort and something will unlock itself !
I was just trying to find another way here ! (And in the mean time, find a solution for others like me)

Yes, there are of course validations possible, for the regular APer who is no longer out for them they still happen just "incidently". But you can also plan it of course, e.g. the card-look-up-test, which many here have done with success, including me. You put a card from a stack on a shelf without looking at it and then look it up in AP state in your room.

This is assuming I'm already successfully doing AP in order to prove it to myself. I'm not that far !

I recommend you read the link in my signature to see a vast collection of so-called 'anecdotal evidence' but also some scientific experiments, here it is again: http://da-lai.lima-city.de/OBE/index.html
Last not least, the best way to get proof is to prove it you yourself and learn the arts for that. This should be motivation enough. So, are you ready for it? 

I've already read a lot of validation experiments, but reading is not believing what you're reading is true. As you say, you have to build your own conviction and you can not just absorb what someone else did !

Anyway. Thank you for your input and sorry If I did offended you or anyone else on this forum !

[Lilipad]

I agree with Volgerle, you either have the drive and determination to learn to Project or you don't. 

Good for you if you're capable of such binary behavior 
Have you ever tried something for a long time without succeeding and wonder if you were doing it properly ? Or, since you've never met someone who actually did it (beside what you've read), if the "quest" was valid or not ?
If you did, then you can understand my feeling. I know that I'm not the only one with difficulties, it's just to let you know it's not as black or white as you may suggest (at least for me) !

The only person who can prove the veracity of projection to you is yourself through direct personal experiences with it.
The sort of evidence you're asking for has been done enough times in this world to "suggest" that Projection is a REAL phenomenon... what most people lack now is the determination to do it and see for themselves.
We can certainly teach you. 

I totally agree that the final proof goes through personal experience. I was just looking for a kind of help that I think I need (and what I thought many others do too): When reading about others experiences is not enought.
This is ok if my suggestion is no good. I wrote it on that forum just for that: receive input from everyone as of the validity of the approach.
I will take the help you can offer, and I'll continue to read this forum and search for the thing that I'm missing.
Thank you all ! 

[Xanth]

Actually yes, I do.  It took me over 10 years to finally figure out how to have conscious projections.  Ten years.   Most people here complain when they can't do it for 10 weeks.  LoL

[Lilipad]

I'll give you a link that you can read. It's probably the best way forward for you ad you address the topic head on. Many already there are having success and there's no reason you can't too.
It's an invitation to learn the art and unlike many other sites, there's no charge at all. All you require is determination and an open mind.
I'll offer this to you as mentioned above, you can verify it for yourself. Get into the driving seat, and enjoy the experience of more than a lifetime.

Read the one at the top initially then select as you please.

http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/forums/destynee-s-plan-f65.html?sid=81bb268a6f9a10421364515a77354ba8

Thank you for this link. It seems indeed to be a place where people helps each others, and has the spirit I was trying to create
Great !

[Lilipad]

Actually yes, I do.  It took me over 10 years to finally figure out how to have conscious projections.  Ten years.   Most people here complain when they can't do it for 10 weeks.  LoL

(this is a genuine question) If its not too personnal, do you think it would have helped you along the way of your 10+ years personal quest to meet some Astral Traveler that would bring a "proof" of the Astral world ? And why ?
(But maybe you did met one ?)

[Xanth]

(this is a genuine question) If its not too personnal, do you think it would have helped you along the way of your 10+ years personal quest to meet some Astral Traveler that would bring a "proof" of the Astral world ? And why ?
(But maybe you did met one ?)

I've been having non-physical experiences my entire life, I just didn't realize it until much later.  "Proof" was never my problem.  I never needed or wanted to know if projection was real... I already "knew".

Back when I first started this, I might have THOUGHT it would be of help, but knowing what I know now... I *KNOW* it wouldn't have helped in the slightest.  It would have continued to throw me off track... possibly further off track, because this is a completely and 100% personal, individual and unique process.

My only guide came in the form of finding Frank Kepple's notes here on the Pulse which provided me with "mystical-less" instruction.