When I journal my experiences I inevitably have too much to say. I simply can't write fast enough to record everything I remember before I forget it it. So then I use a computer. However, something is lost in not using the tactile sensation of writing. I find that when I leave the computer I don't feel as if I've actually aided my ability to remember the experience.
This is where shorthand comes it. I suspect that if I learn how to write in an alphabet or language that is conducive to writing quickly, I'll be able to retain the benefits of both writing and typing. But learning a shorthand seems like an arduous and time-consuming ordeal.
Does anyone here know a shorthand? If so, which one? Has anyone here created their own shorthand devices? Do you use them for recording dreams? If so, how does that work for you?
Thank you for your replies.
(for some information and examples of shorthand, see the following page)
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/shorthand.htm
Just jot down keywords, they will help you remember it all and you can write it out in full at your leisure.
Quote from: FacelessJust jot down keywords, they will help you remember it all and you can write it out in full at your leisure.
I think you're misunderstanding. That actually is a kind of shorthand. But it's the worst possible kind. Keywords record substance but leave huge contextual gaps. A more sophisticated shorthand will retain context along with substance.
Here are a few sites to help you:
http://pitmanshorthand.homestead.com/
http://www.geocities.com/shorthandshorthandshorthand/
http://www.alysion.org/handy/althandwriting.htm
Jeni
Kodemaster, I appreciate the links, but I'm already aware of those and various other shorthand resources.
I wanted to know if there are people here who know a shorthand, if they use it for dream journaling, and if it has benefited them.
Or why not try a voice recorder of some kind ?
Later it will be much easier to write it down the way you like it.
Quote from: Smilodon29AOr why not try a voice recorder of some kind ?
Later it will be much easier to write it down the way you like it.
But you have to write it down
anyways.
Shorthand developed for use in taking dictation. A stenographer has to be able to write as fast as a person speaks, if not faster. So if this is possible, wouldn't it make sense just to write?
This was a long shot. Shorthand is so outdated that there are no classes or certified instructors anymore. I appreciate the replies.
What about rough little sketches or personal symbols in a sequence? lol. I know for some dreams that's saved me a lot of descriptive writing, and I completely suck at drawing.
why not try writing down keywords first, then immediately go back and write a detailed experience? Also when you wake, before going straight to your notebook, stay perfectly still and relaxed.. and just play it back in your head and remember. This helps a lot! For me, if I start moving the images start fading fast if I dont remember them first.
I generally write down words to remember each dream... then replay the dream in my head while writing down every thought and feeling that comes to mind... sometimes I'll randomly go off on a tangent letting the intuition flow and lot of info will come out and usually explaining the dream.
Anyways give it a shot...It seems to me that you'll be so busy concentrating on shorthand that you'll end up losing a lot. Of course until you get it down very well.
Quotewhy not try writing down keywords first
What am I, a broken record?
If you guys are going to escape the question, then please don't post a reply to the question. Although I appreciate your thoughts, they're better suited for another thread, IMO.
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.. and then didn't remember their dreams :'''(((((((((
I think everybody here's at least trying to help, but what you're asking is a pretty tough question to begin with. If reading posts that don't help you is really that much of a bother to you, maybe you can instead invest your time in actually learning some of the languages you're trying to avoid. I don't think there are many ways around it, much less apparently that you would approve of.
No_leaf, please respect that I was stating my preferences and don't take offense or read emotion into my text. I did not personally attack you or any other member.
Also, please respect my candid message that you were once again no help to me. If you aren't interested in discussing shorthand writing systems, please do me the favor of PM-ing me or don't reply at all. Thank you for listening.
I'd rather see people ignore my question and not post, than ignore my question and post! I'm sorry if that is an unreasonable request.
Quote from: TelosWhat am I, a broken record?
:lol:
Well..., :wink:
Try to use a MP3 player&recorder: you start by recording on the MP3 what you remember from your dreams, then upload the file on your computer; then there are programs which turn speech into writing (or maybe only the other way round :?: , I don't remember exactly, I hope I'm not wrong; but try and find such a program).
It should work. Anyway you would need to change a bit your dream recording habits... But probably you would manage it 8) .
You will be able to lay on your bed and keep your eyes shut while recording, and this might help, because your attention will remain inward. :wink:
I hope it helps :roll:.
I don't think shorthand would have been a good option for this type of thing anyway, even if you could find someone to teach you. I take Gregg shorthand. I've used it for years and the one thing everyone who takes shorthand knows is to transcribe it before your notes get too cold. Not that you can't "read" it later, but the longer you wait the harder it gets. Also, I've found that it's automatic to write it when you hear someone talking, but it's awkward for some reason to use it for your own thoughts.
It's really too bad it's not taught anymore. It's still very useful even today.
Giselle
:D
Telos,
Thanks for the link. There were some other links on that page and one was an MSN Gregg Shorthand Group. Just as I thought...there are a LOT of closet shorthand users out there.
G
"I'd rather see people ignore my question and not post,"
Which is what the vast majority of AP participants have done.
:)
-Just being a troublemaker, and pointing out an obvious bit that you may have overlooked.
sweetbliss, you picked up the irony of my "broken record" comment! I knew that if anyone would it'd be you. ;)
Giselle, thank you! That's just the kind of insight I was looking for. I very much appreciate it.
Patty, in your quote from me you missed the second part of the sentence, and in doing so you changed its meaning. You seem to be responding to it in an absolute sense whereas I meant it in a comparative sense. Not only did you not help me, you're being obstructionist. I hope it's not intentional. Either way, welcome to Astral Pulse!
Telos, I would recommend, if you're serious, that you study Gregg and become proficient in it. That will solve your problem, but will also quite likely take at least two years. That's if you study hard.
I've developed my own shorthand style for taking notes for my own use, but I couldn't begin to tell you it would work for you. Have you gone to college? That's where my "classical Gregg" was introduced to the serious lecture circuit and became what it is today. (laughing!!!)
Good luck, and I thnk you'll develop your own style after awhile.
At least it means that I have a sense of humour :lol: .
Still I don't understand what is the purpose of your questions (if it is not a meta-content / communication strategy :wink: hiding there... :idea: ). Why don't you simply record what you need with a voice recorder? Is writing helping you to concentrate better? Why do you want to use handwriting when you can use some technique, with better results. :?
greatoutdoors, thank you very much for your reply as well. For the past couple days I've just been crashing into various systems, and Gregg is looking very intuitive - almost beautiful. But it really takes a commitment, especially considering all the different versions that are possible, and I wanted to hear thoughts from people like you and Giselle. Thank you again.
Sweetbliss, I recognize the merits of voice recording, and I tried it for a short while when I was in high school. It just took way too much time to transcribe it later and organize it. The process of stopping the tape and rewinding it became very arduous. I never tried it again because I had roommates in college, and that would've bothered them.
But I don't have a roommate anymore. I will take the advice you and Smilidon have given and try it again, but I didn't want to sidetrack off my original question. Voice recording is a main topic that should have its own thread, IMO.
Writing also helps, I think, because it's a very quiet activity, and that helps me concentrate. There's also something about the hand/eye coordinative movement of writing that "crystalizes" the experience, solidifying it into solid matter for quick and reliable reference.
Thank you for all your replies. I hope I haven't made anyone upset.
Another thought about using shorthand....
When you write something out in longhand or type it, you're able to scan the page and pick up main thoughts. That is not possible with shorthand...at least not with Gregg shorthand. Certain symbols and short forms are alike and it depends on the content as to what the word is, so you actually have to start "translating" at some point to see what it says. It can't be done by glancing at it.
The only way I can see that shorthand might be of benefit here, if you're so inclined, is to write your thoughts immediately in shorthand and then transcribe them shortly thereafter.
I've thought about the reason why I feel it's awkward to put your own thoughts down in shorthand. Gregg is based on phonetics and you actually "record" it by sound, so when you're thinking you find yourself distracted by also sounding the words out in your mind, even though it's done so quickly you probably don't notice that you're doing it. And this is probably the reason you can sit and take several pages of shorthand and not have a full understanding of what you've written until you read it back. The sounds go almost immediately from your ear to your hand if you're proficient at taking it.
Giselle
Giselle, thank you once again.
Would you say that it's not possible to "think" in shorthand like the way it's possible to think in a foreign language?
I would say that, yes. And I do speak both German and English, so I know what you mean.
Giselle
I understand, especially since vowels are being dropped liberally, making the real meaning of a word sometimes ambiguous. There appears to be a heavy emphasis on relying on context. That's what I think is missing from my dream journaling. I write down a lot of substance but I feel I'm missing how it all connects together. I have the feeling that if I somehow record those connections [Edit:I think the linguistic term I'm looking for is "syntactic density"], the wider substance will come back to me as I reference it. Using keywords is the opposite - using substance to remember context - which I find very ephemeral.
I also know some intermediate Japanese. Their writing system is a mix of syllabic and ideographic characters, but their speech is completely reliant on predefined syllables. So, when writing in syllabic form, a word is spelled exactly how it sounds. When you borrow a foreign word for use in Japanese, you have to change its pronounciation significantly in order for it to be understood and read.
For example, I'll use a word they borrowed from German, "Arbeit." In Japanese it's written and pronounced like "ah-ru-bai-to." If you pronounce it in the original German, they'll have no clue what you're talking about. They have fewer phonemes than most languages. The English words "hell" and "hair" would actually be written the same way, "hei-ru," so there is also some ambiguity and reliance on context.
Forgive me if you already know all this. The point I'm getting at is that, after writing in Japanese for a while and deciphering the correct spelling and pronunciation of foreign words, I started to naturally see every word in any language in terms of its Japanese syllabic equivalent. I was not thinking in the Japanese language per se, but in Japanese phonetics.
I suppose it was like "thinking in an accent," but with the accent having a distinct and standardized written component corresponding to its pronunciation. So, if I may ask a similar question, would you say that it is possible to "think" in shorthand the way it's possible to think in an accent?
I may not quite understand everything you've said, but if I had to give you a "yes" or "no" answer, I'd say "no." But then my brain way be wired differently. I am not a "visual" person. (Which, I assume, is why I have a lot of difficulty doing the rundown that Frank talks about.) I think in words, but not by visualizing the witten word.
I have a question. When learning a new language, we first learn to speak it, then to write it. So when an English speaking person learns to speak Japanese, our material is printed in the English alphabet, i.e., we write their words with our alpahbet as it would best fit the pronunciation. When a Japanese person learns English, is the material they learn from printed in Japanese "script" or in the English alphabet. Or do they do the same thing and write our words in Japanese symbols to learn to speak the language. Your example of "hell" and "hair" made me curious.
Anyway to get back to the shorthand thing... I've used shorthand in my business life for about 40 years and I've never "thought" in shorthand. But that's me.
Giselle
Well, I sy that itrst tpc. Myb I wl tch u smdy. :)
(oh come on Nay, I could't resist)
Han
QuoteWhen a Japanese person learns English, is the material they learn from printed in Japanese "script" or in the English alphabet. Or do they do the same thing and write our words in Japanese symbols to learn to speak the language.
Now you've got me very curious! I've never really researched how the Japanese learn English. They do learn it at a young age, however, as it's a required course for most of their years in schooling.
As you may know, there are no "L" or "TH" phonemes in Japanese, so they have no script. So a Japanese will
never learn the sounds "L" and "TH" if he/she writes foreign words in Japanese script. The pronunciation and the alphabet are that attached. I wonder to what extent the English alphabet is used in beginning courses, because some Japanese learn the L and TH pretty well, but others don't. There are studies that suggest that if you don't learn these (or other) sounds when you are extremely young, you'll probably never use them.
I had brought up Japanese because reading shorthand is like reading a smattering of consonants and syllables, and it reminded of the "butchering" of English pronunciation that's required for use in Japanese.
Thank you for your help.
[Edit: Oh, and now that I give it a second look, I'm actually wrong about hell and hair. The pronunciation is a little different ("he-ru" and "hei-ru" respectively) although there are other examples that demonstrate what I was trying to.. for some reason a good one is escaping me]Han, that was pretty funny.
I learned shorthand in high school (I took two semesters of it because my girlfriend took it). I don't remember what style it is (Forkner or Gregg rings a bell). It's actually come in quite useful throughout the years.
Learning shorthand takes practice because the various symbols and abbrieviations have to become second nature.
If you're not concerned about knowing an "official" shorthand, I'd suggest you make up your own and then practice it until it becomes second nature. Start by identifying the various "sounds", words, phrases, and letter combinations that occur most freqently in your writing such as "ing", "and", "ed", "the", "tion" and then come up with simple notations to substitute in for those. For example the word "the" becomes a dash, the sound "ing", usually at the end of a word becomes a smile, "out-of-body" becomes oob, etc. A captial letter can mean one sound (such as "St") whereas a small one doesn't. Avoid dotting i's or crossing t's. Use little shortcuts to denote each different vowel sound so you don't have to write out vowels or combinations of them. Make your shortcuts simple lines and symbols that can be written with one stroke without lifting the pencil.
Start with just a couple shortcuts and keep adding more as you get comfortable and as they become automatic. Don't forget to go back and re-read your text frequently for practice so that reading your own shorthand becomes automatic also.
A year or two ago I spent some time working on learning Gregg shorthand. Mostly I wanted to use it for the Morning Pages that I was writing then (a technique from the book The Artist's Way where you start the day off by writing three longhand pages of anything, as a way of "opening the channels" for more consistent creativity). The problem was that three pages of longhand was taking me forever, every morning.
So I worked on learning Gregg shorthand and got reasonably OK at it, but ran into a second problem: I could write in shorthand, and mostly :D read back what I wrote, but only very slowly. Soon I discovered that my Morning Pages writing and journal writing and whatever I wrote in shorthand began to slow to a trickle. I needed to practice it to get more proficient so I used it in my daily life, but trying to use something that I have only limited skills with is difficult. If I look at my journals from that time, the entries in shorthand get briefer and briefer, until I finally snapped and returned to writing in longhand.
I just wish there were more resources available for _practicing_ shorthand, the way there used to be Gregg magazines back in the 50s or whenever. Unfortunately shorthand fell out of popularity before the web got going, so online resources are few and far between. If you buy a book on shorthand, basically you've already got everything that's available on the web and more. I wish somebody had a scanned archive of their shorthand magazine collection online or something. The handful of Gregg books that are still in print are prohibitively expensive to just buy casually, and using my own shaky shorthand writing to practice my reading is very much a case of the blind (me) leading the blind (me).
So I guess what I'm saying is, I think learning a shorthand system is good idea, but I'm personally stumped as to finding enough resources to make a good go at it.
Pres
RJA and PresNevins, thank you for your posts.
And welcome to the forum, PresNevins! I know just what you mean about the blind leading the blind... I think you'll find a significant amount of that here. ;)