Sleep Paralysis and Astral Projection

[Stillwater]

I am making this topic to point out a trend, and analyze what it may mean.

The greater number of actual projectors report sleep paralysis at some time during their nightly experience. This experience is generally said to be involuntary.

Many also say that it is quite easy to project from sleep paralysis.

If this is the case, it would seem that many succeed at projection largely because they enter an involuntary state.

Does anyone have any knowledge of exactly what causes sleep paralysis, or think they may know the link between AP and sleep paralysis? Does sleep paralysis coincide with projection efforts, or is it largley random in some individuals?

[Stillwater]

Surely someone has some knowledge of the subject?

[Darren]

I think robert bruce has theories on waking paralysis.

"Waking Paralysis:
Some degree of physical paralysis is a sure sign an OOBE is IN PROGRESS. It shows the mind split, in some form, has already occurred. The physical body has varying degrees of difficulty animating itself when the mind split effect is active. Even though they may not be aware a projection is in progress, a projector's physical/etheric body may feel total physical paralysis, or some degree of lethargy and heaviness and disorientation in their physical body. The degree of this depends greatly upon the strength of the projection and how much energy is being used to maintain it. Strong sensations like these point to an OOBE being in progress.

The degree of paralysis shows the 'strength' of the projection. A full powered Real Time OOBE will cause total physical paralysis (full waking paralysis) while a lighter level of projection can still allow the projector's physical body to stumble to the bathroom - albeit mumbling incoherently and feeling like they are walking on pillows, body fairly numb and fuzzy - but ambulatory all the same.

Waking paralysis (often called sleep paralysis) will also occur where the real time body has been generated 'inside' the physical/etheric body, but actual separation or full projection from the physical/etheric bodies has not occurred. This means a partial projection has occurred, albeit internally, and is causing some degree of waking paralysis. The real time 'projectable double' in this case has not projected completely free of it's physical body. If this is suspected, the projector should relax and let it happen, or use a projection technique like rope. A full projection can then occur if it has not already happened.

Note: Many people are plagued by waking paralysis, and it can indeed be a terrifying experience, capable of causing psychological damage. Waking paralysis can best be broken by concentrating on a single big toe and trying hard to move it. Concentrate 'everything' on moving that big toe. Once this moves, even a tiny bit, full physical movement will be instantly restored."

If you take on the mind split theory.

Hope this helps, Darren

Edit: If you haven't read about Robert Bruce's Mind Split theory i suggest you do, this will make easier to understand.

[Stillwater]

Thanks for the reply, darren

This is an interesting explanation, but if it instituted, it brings up more questions:

"Waking Paralysis:
Some degree of physical paralysis is a sure sign an OOBE is IN PROGRESS. It shows the mind split, in some form, has already occurred. The physical body has varying degrees of difficulty animating itself when the mind split effect is active. Even though they may not be aware a projection is in progress, a projector's physical/etheric body may feel total physical paralysis, or some degree of lethargy and heaviness and disorientation in their physical body. The degree of this depends greatly upon the strength of the projection and how much energy is being used to maintain it. Strong sensations like these point to an OOBE being in progress.

The degree of paralysis shows the 'strength' of the projection. A full powered Real Time OOBE will cause total physical paralysis (full waking paralysis) while a lighter level of projection can still allow the projector's physical body to stumble to the bathroom - albeit mumbling incoherently and feeling like they are walking on pillows, body fairly numb and fuzzy - but ambulatory all the same.

Waking paralysis (often called sleep paralysis) will also occur where the real time body has been generated 'inside' the physical/etheric body, but actual separation or full projection from the physical/etheric bodies has not occurred. This means a partial projection has occurred, albeit internally, and is causing some degree of waking paralysis. The real time 'projectable double' in this case has not projected completely free of it's physical body. If this is suspected, the projector should relax and let it happen, or use a projection technique like rope. A full projection can then occur if it has not already happened.

for instance, this theory suggests that every possible instance of sleep or waking paralysis is actually due to an OBE in progress!

This leads to odd results when paired with bio-psychology on sleep and dreaming: REM sleep is the part of sleep occurring 2-4 times nightly in which we dream; it has been demonstrated that the body is paralyzed during the state of REM sleep, in order to prevent us from acting out our dreams and hurting ourselves.

So we are in effect paralyzed in sleep every REM cycle, but usually not aware- this report from RB implies that we are in OBE three 2-4 times a night, as that is when REM occurs!

When people usually describe their OBE attempts, the thing they seem to shoot for is entering REM while awake, even if it is not described as such: most try to put the body to sleep, and do so in the early morning; this is when REM is most likely to occur, and the hypnogogic imagery many see relates to REM.

It is clear from this line of reasoning that THERE IS A CLEAR LINK BETWEEN REM SLEEP AND OBE.

The nature of this link is what intrigues me.

I do not need OBE to verify the truth of metaphysics, as I am satisfied of that through other lines of reasoning.

I believe in the truth of OBE- something IS occurring, or it would not be so steadily reported and studied. The question is what.

The body of anecdotal evidence of OBE allowing people to gather information on the physical world is shaky- some do make claims of this, but they are spotty and un-scientific, not allowing conclusive results.

OBE and vivid dreams have SO MUCH IN COMMON: both occur in REM; both allow thoughts to control reality; both are based on the subjective perceptions of an individual; both are believed to be realer than waking reality at the time; both do not seem to have any necessary coherence with the physical world that does not draw merely from memories of the world.

I have always wondered if projections truly are something beyond dreams; I am quite open to the possibility, and think it plausible, but I cannot conclusively say they are different yet.

I think the answers may rest in understanding what really is happening in sleep paralysis, but perhaps someone else has a suggestion?

Open to any discussion- I welcome and encourage it! Prove me wrong  

[Stillwater]

Thanks for the reply, darren

This is an interesting explanation, but if it instituted, it brings up more questions:

"Waking Paralysis:
Some degree of physical paralysis is a sure sign an OOBE is IN PROGRESS. It shows the mind split, in some form, has already occurred. The physical body has varying degrees of difficulty animating itself when the mind split effect is active. Even though they may not be aware a projection is in progress, a projector's physical/etheric body may feel total physical paralysis, or some degree of lethargy and heaviness and disorientation in their physical body. The degree of this depends greatly upon the strength of the projection and how much energy is being used to maintain it. Strong sensations like these point to an OOBE being in progress.

The degree of paralysis shows the 'strength' of the projection. A full powered Real Time OOBE will cause total physical paralysis (full waking paralysis) while a lighter level of projection can still allow the projector's physical body to stumble to the bathroom - albeit mumbling incoherently and feeling like they are walking on pillows, body fairly numb and fuzzy - but ambulatory all the same.

Waking paralysis (often called sleep paralysis) will also occur where the real time body has been generated 'inside' the physical/etheric body, but actual separation or full projection from the physical/etheric bodies has not occurred. This means a partial projection has occurred, albeit internally, and is causing some degree of waking paralysis. The real time 'projectable double' in this case has not projected completely free of it's physical body. If this is suspected, the projector should relax and let it happen, or use a projection technique like rope. A full projection can then occur if it has not already happened.

for instance, this theory suggests that every possible instance of sleep or waking paralysis is actually due to an OBE in progress!

This leads to odd results when paired with bio-psychology on sleep and dreaming: REM sleep is the part of sleep occurring 2-4 times nightly in which we dream; it has been demonstrated that the body is paralyzed during the state of REM sleep, in order to prevent us from acting out our dreams and hurting ourselves.

So we are in effect paralyzed in sleep every REM cycle, but usually not aware- this report from RB implies that we are in OBE three 2-4 times a night, as that is when REM occurs!

When people usually describe their OBE attempts, the thing they seem to shoot for is entering REM while awake, even if it is not described as such: most try to put the body to sleep, and do so in the early morning; this is when REM is most likely to occur, and the hypnogogic imagery many see relates to REM.

It is clear from this line of reasoning that THERE IS A CLEAR LINK BETWEEN REM SLEEP AND OBE.

The nature of this link is what intrigues me.

I do not need OBE to verify the truth of metaphysics, as I am satisfied of that through other lines of reasoning.

I believe in the truth of OBE- something IS occurring, or it would not be so steadily reported and studied. The question is what.

The body of anecdotal evidence of OBE allowing people to gather information on the physical world is shaky- some do make claims of this, but they are spotty and un-scientific, not allowing conclusive results.

OBE and vivid dreams have SO MUCH IN COMMON: both occur in REM; both allow thoughts to control reality; both are based on the subjective perceptions of an individual; both are believed to be realer than waking reality at the time; both do not seem to have any necessary coherence with the physical world that does not draw merely from memories of the world.

I have always wondered if projections truly are something beyond dreams; I am quite open to the possibility, and think it plausible, but I cannot conclusively say they are different yet.

I think the answers may rest in understanding what really is happening in sleep paralysis, but perhaps someone else has a suggestion?

Open to any discussion- I welcome and encourage it! Prove me wrong  

[kiwibonga]

Saying that dreams and OBEs are different would be a mistake...

The problem is that a dream can be any type of projection with a low level of awareness, lucidity, and memory. Science makes this confusing, because dreams are supposedly "all in the brain," and OBEs do not exist!

In truth, dreams (and lucid dreams) have all the characteristics of a projection to a realm of the astral plane (most often, to "personal," closed realms).

Sleep paralysis seems to be nothing more than a change of focus from the physical to the etheric. The only reason there is paralysis is because we are often still under the illusion that we are our physical body, and therefore we try to flex muscles that aren't there by sending pulses to nerves that aren't there either.

I've read that there was a medical reason for paralysis during sleep, and that it is caused by a certain chemical produced by the body...

I can't say for sure if that is true, or if there's different kinds of sleep paralysis... Whenever I was paralyzed, all I had to do was concentrate harder and I was able to move instantly. Perhaps we produce some kind of "counter-chemical" when we wake up?

In my opinion, sleep paralysis is a mandatory step, it's not just easier to project, you HAVE to switch focus to the etheric before you can create the projectable double...

[Darren]

Still Water, i advise reading into the Mind split theory, it's in Roert Bruce's Book Astral Dynamics. It's more than it seems. It doesn't mean we are constantly projecting, it's about memory recall of the projected double and what Robert believes is that a complete copy of the physical conscious in made and put into the double on its projection, your physical conscious remains in your physical body at all times. Not just leaving an empty shell. Just because sometimes you don't recall memory of your projected double out doesn't mean that isn't happening and you are left paralyzed.

Do you really believe 100% of your consciousness in in your physical body anyway?

Being able to recall the memory of these experiences is one of the biggest issues alot of us have.

Darren

[Inward]

Hi,

The body of anecdotal evidence of OBE allowing people to gather information on the physical world is shaky- some do make claims of this, but they are spotty and un-scientific, not allowing conclusive results.

I have to disagree with that 100%. I think most people simply have not met people who can and have proven it in a scientific manner. I've discussed this before, but basically the only option at the moment is personal proof. You cannot force the collective consciousness to accept hard core scientific proof of obe's just yet or at least not until the collective is ready to entertain such a path.

My personal search for such people who can prove obe's discovered that these people long ago learned why people are here on Earth and that it's a very bad idea to change peoples beliefs on life and reality by proving supernatural abilities. It's a bad idea for everyone unless that person is ready for that in his or her life.

I for example spent a great deal of my early adult life doing obe scientific experiments and they were not shaky experiments. So I have my hard core scientific personal proof of obe's.

About paralysis, I think it's a natural occurrence for the physical body, but it does not mean the energy body has expanded or is out of body. Although I think in most cases the energy body is either expanded or out of the physical. If it's expanded, then the next step is completely breaking free from the physical and projecting. That can be easy or simple depending who tightly bonded the two are.

Inward

[Stillwater]

hi all, thanks for the posts

Kiwibonga:

Saying that dreams and OBEs are different would be a mistake...

The problem is that a dream can be any type of projection with a low level of awareness, lucidity, and memory. Science makes this confusing, because dreams are supposedly "all in the brain," and OBEs do not exist!

In truth, dreams (and lucid dreams) have all the characteristics of a projection to a realm of the astral plane (most often, to "personal," closed realms).

Sleep paralysis seems to be nothing more than a change of focus from the physical to the etheric. The only reason there is paralysis is because we are often still under the illusion that we are our physical body, and therefore we try to flex muscles that aren't there by sending pulses to nerves that aren't there either.

Well, it is very possible that dreams and AP could be the same thing, but if this is true, it doesn't immediately solve the other problem: that AP does not appear to conclusively give us verifiable data on the physical world. In this explanation, where AP = dreams and dreams = AP, we are basically saying the two are one, so they either both occur in the brain, or both outside.

The etheric model of projection that you provide with your theory suggest both occur outside the brain, as you point out that the paralysis may be the result of being out of phase with the body, but then there is still the odd but not impossible situation where we are simply imagining being outside the body in a dream, thereby paralyzing the body, or the possiblity that we simply woke up during REM, when the body is normally paralyzed to prevent injury in dreams, as has been demonstated by psychology. As well as not being able to provide evidence of their coherence with the physical world, we are still not able to tell the source of the projection, unless I have mis-interpreted your statements.

I am sorry if I drew conclusions that did not follow form your words, and if I am missing something/ have mispoken, please point it out  

[Stillwater]

thanks for the suggestion, Darren:

Still Water, i advise reading into the Mind split theory, it's in Roert Bruce's Book Astral Dynamics. It's more than it seems. It doesn't mean we are constantly projecting, it's about memory recall of the projected double and what Robert believes is that a complete copy of the physical conscious in made and put into the double on its projection, your physical conscious remains in your physical body at all times. Not just leaving an empty shell. Just because sometimes you don't recall memory of your projected double out doesn't mean that isn't happening and you are left paralyzed.

Do you really believe 100% of your consciousness in in your physical body anyway?

Something to remark on, though, is that Mr. Bruce is very circumspect in calling his model a theory as well, knowing that there may be other plausible models as well.

Now I am not nearly as authoritative on the subject as Bruce, but I favor another model: that projection is a process of passing our awareness deeper into our own mind. This does NOT mean that projection is merely a dream or a product of the brain, but rather that no travel is necessary to go any place in other planes, which is actually the case according to most. I believe a number of the "senior" members here also hold this opinion.

Rene Descartes may be of help here:

Descartes points out that we can not be sure of the objective existence of the material world: what we experience come entirely from our senses. I DO NOT SEE A BOOK, BUT RATHER I HAVE A VISION OF A BOOK! This much is true, there is no arguing with it, I am afraid- every experience we have with the physical world is merely of some sense perception of it, usually one of the five normal ones. I have sensations of holding a book, of seeing it, of hearing it clamp shut or fall, it smells musty, and if I dare I may sample its fine taste, but I still only have perceptions which only suggest the book exists, not prove it. Perhaps the physcial world is ONLY these perceptions, as we cannot prove it is there, but only that our perceptions suggest it is there, think about it!

Now not to sound authoritative, but most philosophers I have read post- Descartes (and many before) actually agree, and I have not read any good  refutation of this near-truth.

From this, one may see that one does not necessarily need to "travel" to the astral plane, but only shift their awareness to perceptions of it. Since our mind is the only thing we are sure, of, and not the physical, and the astral is not dependant on the pysical by necessity, then in essence our mind IS the world! This does not suggest that our brain makes the mind, but rather that the mind makes the brain! Since there is nothing really to travel away from, it would seem that we are basically traveling inside our own mind, in essence "going deeper". One may equate mind with soul, if that is their choice, as my tendancy is, but soul is a loaded word in some circles.

So you can see that the mind-split theory could be correct, but that there are other possiblities too- namely what I suggest in this case, that we are voyaging in our own mind (body of "God"?), so do not need to go anyplace at all.

[MisterJingo]

thanks for the suggestion, Darren:

Still Water, i advise reading into the Mind split theory, it's in Roert Bruce's Book Astral Dynamics. It's more than it seems. It doesn't mean we are constantly projecting, it's about memory recall of the projected double and what Robert believes is that a complete copy of the physical conscious in made and put into the double on its projection, your physical conscious remains in your physical body at all times. Not just leaving an empty shell. Just because sometimes you don't recall memory of your projected double out doesn't mean that isn't happening and you are left paralyzed.

Do you really believe 100% of your consciousness in in your physical body anyway?

Something to remark on, though, is that Mr. Bruce is very circumspect in calling his model a theory as well, knowing that there may be other plausible models as well.

Now I am not nearly as authoritative on the subject as Bruce, but I favor another model: that projection is a process of passing our awareness deeper into our own mind. This does NOT mean that projection is merely a dream or a product of the brain, but rather that no travel is necessary to go any place in other planes, which is actually the case according to most. I believe a number of the "senior" members here also hold this opinion.

Rene Descartes may be of help here:

Descartes points out that we can not be sure of the objective existence of the material world: what we experience come entirely from our senses. I DO NOT SEE A BOOK, BUT RATHER I HAVE A VISION OF A BOOK! This much is true, there is no arguing with it, I am afraid- every experience we have with the physical world is merely of some sense perception of it, usually one of the five normal ones. I have sensations of holding a book, of seeing it, of hearing it clamp shut or fall, it smells musty, and if I dare I may sample its fine taste, but I still only have perceptions which only suggest the book exists, not prove it. Perhaps the physcial world is ONLY these perceptions, as we cannot prove it is there, but only that our perceptions suggest it is there, think about it!

Now not to sound authoritative, but most philosophers I have read post- Descartes (and many before) actually agree, and I have not read any good  refutation of this near-truth.

From this, one may see that one does not necessarily need to "travel" to the astral plane, but only shift their awareness to perceptions of it. Since our mind is the only thing we are sure, of, and not the physical, and the astral is not dependant on the pysical by necessity, then in essence our mind IS the world! This does not suggest that our brain makes the mind, but rather that the mind makes the brain! Since there is nothing really to travel away from, it would seem that we are basically traveling inside our own mind, in essence "going deeper". One may equate mind with soul, if that is their choice, as my tendancy is, but soul is a loaded word in some circles.

So you can see that the mind-split theory could be correct, but that there are other possiblities too- namely what I suggest in this case, that we are voyaging in our own mind (body of "God"?), so do not need to go anyplace at all.

Hi Stillwater,

Have you read much about the phasing model of AP? It really amounts to changing the focus of consiousness from the 'physical' world to the astral planes. This can be likened to moving focus inwards. My experiences to date have been inline with this theory. AP being a construct of the imagination with a possible greater reality behind it.

[Stillwater]

(sorry my big post is drawn out in three, lol- I did it this way to avoid losing what I typed if comp froze, as it has many times before.)

okay-

Darren:

Do you really believe 100% of your consciousness in[is] in your physical body anyway?

No, actually I think that 100% of the body is contained in the mind! I am of the school of thought called "Idealism" in modern philosophy, that says that there is only mind, and that the body is only something the mind is "thinking", just as the astral is composed of thoughts.

Inward:

I have to disagree with that 100%. I think most people simply have not met people who can and have proven it in a scientific manner. I've discussed this before, but basically the only option at the moment is personal proof. You cannot force the collective consciousness to accept hard core scientific proof of obe's just yet or at least not until the collective is ready to entertain such a path.

My personal search for such people who can prove obe's discovered that these people long ago learned why people are here on Earth and that it's a very bad idea to change peoples beliefs on life and reality by proving supernatural abilities. It's a bad idea for everyone unless that person is ready for that in his or her life.

I for example spent a great deal of my early adult life doing obe scientific experiments and they were not shaky experiments. So I have my hard core scientific personal proof of obe's.

About paralysis, I think it's a natural occurrence for the physical body, but it does not mean the energy body has expanded or is out of body. Although I think in most cases the energy body is either expanded or out of the physical. If it's expanded, then the next step is completely breaking free from the physical and projecting. That can be easy or simple depending who tightly bonded the two are.

Your name suggests you may support the theory I proposed in last post, but of course it is not right for me to assume that, although I think we mainly disagree in the area of the "anecdotal evidnece".

I certainly agree that most people are not ready to accept OBE as a proven phenomenon, but the evidence is spotty for those looking for evidence ( not that is doesn't perhaps exist in some place).

I can think of around 15 incidences of people trying to find proof, but only 3 or 4 at best suggest positive proof.

I think most of us have read of Charles Tart and Miss Z:

(an excerpt, url posted for those interested in all)

Each laboratory night, after the subject was lying in bed, the physiological recordings were running satisfactorily, and she was ready to go to sleep, I went into my office down the hall, opened a table of random numbers at random, threw a coin onto the table as a means of random entry into the page, and copied off the first five digits immediately above where the coin landed.

These were copied with a black marking pen, in figures approximately two inches high, onto a small piece of paper. Thus they were quite discrete visually. This five-digit random number constituted the parapsychological target for the evening. I then slipped it into an opaque folder, entered the subject's room, and slipped the piece of paper onto the shelf without at any time exposing it to the subject. This now provided a target which would be clearly visible to anyone whose eyes were located approximately six and a half feet off the floor or higher, but was otherwise not visible to the subject. The subject was instructed to sleep well, to try and have an out-of-body experience, and if she did so to try to wake up immediately afterwards and tell me about it, so I could note on the polygraph records when it had occurred. She was also told that if she floated high enough to read the five-digit number she should memorize it and wake up immediately afterwards to tell me what it was. My conversation with Miss Z after I had prepared the target was, of course, minimal and could not have given her any clue as to the target number.

On reporting to the laboratory on the fourth night, Miss Z seemed to be determined to have the right kind of out-of-body experience. Although I had indicated complete satisfaction with her performance so far, she was angry at herself because she had not been able to float up and read the target number. Miss Z went quickly to sleep, entering Stages 3 and 4 less than fifteen minutes after going to bed. The night was uneventful for the most part - there were several Stage 1 dream periods in the first two-thirds of the night, as would be expected for any normal subject. After four and a half hours of sleep, she had a Stage 1 dream period with REMs which lasted for half an hour. The EEG was technically rather poor on this night, being obscured with a great deal of sixty cycle artifact and requiring rather heavy high frequency filtering to make it clear, so the EEG findings should be taken with the realization that they are subject to more error than usual. Miss Z's Stage 1 dream terminated with several minutes of intermittent body movements and EEG artifact. Then (at 5:50 A.M.) the occipital channel showed an enlarged, slow wave artifact, the REM channel showed no REMs, and the record looked like a Stage I tracing; however, I could not be sure due to the considerations mentioned above. At 5:57 A.M. the slow wave artifact was lessened and the record looked somewhat like Stage 1 with REMs, but I could not be sure whether this was a waking or a Stage I record. This lasted until 6:04 A.M., at which time Miss Z awoke and called out that the target number was 25132. This was correct (with the digits in correct order), but I did not say anything to her at this point; I merely indicated that I had written the number down on the record. I then told her she could go back to sleep, but twenty minutes later I awakened her so that she could get ready to go to work. At this time, she described her experience as follows:

http://www.near-death.com/tart.html

the really significant part, if you don't care to read all:

.......This lasted until 6:04 A.M., at which time Miss Z awoke and called out that the target number was 25132. This was correct.........

Now, assuming this account is true (as I think it is), and that some other explanation is not true (like reading the reflection in the clock, as posted on the site, which I agree sounds unlikely) in the context of the article, you can see that she recognized the 5 digit number ( 1 in 100,000 chance), but this is an isolated case, unfortunately.

The great Monroe actually perfomed many experiments, one of which involved seasoned projectors entrering a room in projection to see the contents: they were all hideously off!

Now you may argue that since the astral depends on thought, that the items in the room were only thought of briefly, thus not leaving an impression, but how then did Miss Z in the other account read the number, which no one really thought about or encountered for any extended period? In fact, the number appeared in a way conflicting with the way Miss Z thought it would, and don't our thoughts usually effect reality in the astral?




I do not say that either of the accounts is wrong, I already said that, but these conflicting bits of data (seemingly) make posing theories of the astral difficult.




And Inward, I TRULY WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCES WITH PROOF, I am very interested. Since data in this field is fleeting, every bit you can find is important. Perhaps we can use them in this discussion in some loose form, so I look forward to reading as much as you care to post.

[Inward]

Hi,

I certainly agree that most people are not ready to accept OBE as a proven phenomenon, but the evidence is spotty for those looking for evidence ( not that is doesn't perhaps exist in some place).

I can think of around 15 incidences of people trying to find proof, but only 3 or 4 at best suggest positive proof.

That's what I also found. Long ago I began searching for proof. Back then I had no concept of world proof-- proof that everyone could verify or believe. I just wanted proof and thought that the physical world was some stable universe and had no connection to consciousness. I thought that if someone could project to a distant place and prove it then they should be able to do the same thing in front of the world. As you've also found, such proof is very spotty and gray. I understand this must drive a lot of metaphysical scientists crazy! One group or person will excitedly announce great results, but when studied with the intensions of publicizing then things seem to change, thereby making the person or group seem very iffy.

I began to notice to what eventually became a personal theory when I tried to prove obe's to a friend.  By then I had my personal hard core proof. Yet I ran into brick walls when trying to prove it to other people. I've seen this effect occur many times to other people. I know this statement may seem silly to a lot of people, but for me it's so true that everyone is sharing this reality and at some higher level there is order, agreement, and laws. I may call it the collective. Another person may refer to it as the Matrix. The Christians may call this God. It goes by many names, but many things such as global hardcore proof of life after death are in the gray area and not open for global proof, YET.

As for my experiments, it first started when flying to a distant location in my Soul body, not astral body. The next day when I was in the physical body I went to the location and to my surprise it looked just like I saw it while out of body.  This lead to detailed experiments where I used a hidden random number generator. The random number was hidden so that I nor anyone knew what the number was. Once out of body I looked at the random number, then went back to the physical body and verified the number. This is called personal hardcore proof.

I've read the forums and know that I'm not alone in finding personal proof. As a lot have discovered, it typically takes a lot of obe's under the belt before they can achieve personal proof. I heard that it can typically take 5 years of solid projecting before one can learn to *see* correctly.

Inward

[Stillwater]

inward:

began to notice to what eventually became a personal theory when I tried to prove obe's to a friend. By then I had my personal hard core proof. Yet I ran into brick walls when trying to prove it to other people. I've seen this effect occur many times to other people. I know this statement may seem silly to a lot of people, but for me it's so true that everyone is sharing this reality and at some higher level there is order, agreement, and laws. I may call it the collective. Another person may refer to it as the Matrix. The Christians may call this God. It goes by many names, but many things such as global hardcore proof of life after death are in the gray area and not open for global proof, YET.

As for my experiments, it first started when flying to a distant location in my Soul body, not astral body. The next day when I was in the physical body I went to the location and to my surprise it looked just like I saw it while out of body. This lead to detailed experiments where I used a hidden random number generator. The random number was hidden so that I nor anyone knew what the number was. Once out of body I looked at the random number, then went back to the physical body and verified the number. This is called personal hardcore proof.

There are a couple interesting types of experiences here.

You mention the occasion where you visited a location in projection that later confirmed to be an actual physical location; the problem that people generally run into with such experiences is two-fold- part of it deals with limitations in human memory, and the other part deals with distortions of the astral. Both of these forces tend to limit the extent to which our memories link up with truth, and in additition there is a problem with measurement: since there are going to be minor differneces between truth and reality, which cannot be measured quantitatively, the vision will differ from the reality on a qualitative spectrum, rather than a quantitative scale, making it difficult to really see if there is correlation.

The problem is where do you draw the line?

If a test object was an orange, and the subject saw an orange, it is remarkable! But what if they saw a rotten orange? An apple? A basketball? A metal sphere? A banana? An orange jacket?

Obviously each of the objects shares some quality with the orange, but where do you draw the line, and when do you declare coincidence a factor?

On the other hand, if you are willing to accept the spectrum nature of this type of proof, there are important instances of "close hits":



This is an example of remote viewing: the subject was told to view a Soviet base, and among other things, they saw this crane; the drawing on right is what they saw and drafted, and the left is the actual rendering of the crane.

One can see there is a very close resemblance, and it is difficult to believe that someone would think of such an unusual object by chance.

Their vision of the site plan of the base was way off, but this key element, which they remembered because it seemed important, is a key fact.




I am, actually, rather interested in your trials with the hidden random number generator, even moreso than the location you verified, for the above reasons. I do not doubt the veracity of the other experience, but I am simply saying the number generator has more quantifiably testable potential, as I am sure you must agree.

Now the test was obviously not scientific, and I am sure you did not intend it to be, not having a witness, but taken on the assumption that you are truthful, as I believe you likely are, it is still incredibly remarkable.

Was the number(s) 2 digit or greater? How was it hidden, and how did the program work? How many trials did you do, and have you tested it since or recently? Why do you believe it took (takes) around five years to develop the ability to test accurately? What mechanism could be involved that allows greater control?

I ask mainly to see what common elements your story shares with other instance of potential positive proof, like Miss Z's, in order to analyze what the data might suggest.

Thank you very much for your input, and the same to all the other posters

[Stillwater]

MisterJingo:

Hi Stillwater,

Have you read much about the phasing model of AP? It really amounts to changing the focus of consiousness from the 'physical' world to the astral planes. This can be likened to moving focus inwards. My experiences to date have been inline with this theory. AP being a construct of the imagination with a possible greater reality behind it.

I have actually- I think some of the members on this forum developed it collectively- possibly squeak, cube and frank, if I remember correctly.

I think it does fit fairly closely with what most people have reported on this forum, and what seems most immediately plausible.

I know this equates to what Monroe felt.

I wonder if RB still holds to mind-split? I may recall him posting some place that he was developing his theories further, and he might have gone that way, who knows, although he still talks about ROPE on the other site.

[kiwibonga]

According to Aunt_Clair (Whom you may know from other message boards), RB is still very much holding onto the mind split theory, but even goes a little further. According to them, we have more than 10 different points of consciousness (12 or 14?), or bodies, which we can be aware of at the same time.

At first you will be able to "bilocate" -- meaning to be aware of being in two places at the same time (although not physically). The ultimate phase of development is supposedly when you are aware of all (12 or 14) bodies at the same time, at all times.

And that, my friends, is pretty hardcore

[Inward]

At first you will be able to "bilocate" -- meaning to be aware of being in two places at the same time

That reminds me of the Christos Technique as describe in the book, "Windows Of The Mind: Exploring The Christos Technique Of Mind Travel" by G.M. Glaskin. It's a very interesting book, out of print though.  Basically they have one person lie down on the floor and a person at the head and another at the feet. They rub and do certain things to the head and feet. Eventually the person projects and is also aware of the physical body and in fact can still talk.

Inward

[Inward]

Hi Stillwater,

I would agree that such obe verifications of proof is definitely a skill. Trying to verify this in a public environment is great, but just don't get too disappointed in the results. That's why I always push for personal proof. Just as I did very scientific studies of my obe's so can everyone else, but first the _average_ projector needs to get a lot of obe time under their belt if they want to succeed.

Scientific studies in an open public atmosphere would be great, but when done alone it should not mean the experiments are unscientific. A great deal of scientists work alone in their laboratories ranging from Electronic Engineers to Optical Engineers.

Was the number(s) 2 digit or greater?

It was 8 digits.  I should say that working with numbers is the most difficult in the astral. The astral is a place of emotions, not concrete numbers.  A newbie would get far better results if they used a deck of cards that contained pictures of various places and things. As it seems you have discovered, even that is extremely difficult until one gets a little more advanced.  If you're interested then here's a helpful hint:

* Make a commitment that your obe experiments are ONLY for your personal proof. I'm guessing it's fine to tell people of your personal proof so long as you do not hand them hardcore proof.  I firmly believe that if ones intensions are to change to beliefs or realities of others into believing life after death then overall the experiments will fail.

Inward

[kiwibonga]

You just reminded me that I needed to make a new topic about reading in the astral. I'll post the link here because I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much.

EDIT: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23844

[mjolnir_knight]

Since we have plenty of supernatural views, maybe I could provide a scientific view (no offense at all intended, I just like to look at things from multiple aspects).
During sleep, a mild acid is secreted from the brain into the nervous system.  This prevents the electrochemical emissions from nerves, effectively paralyzing you to prevent you from acting out your dreams.  From what I have deduced, sleep paralysis is either: 1 A simple case of the brain not recognizing that you are once again conscious, hence still producing those acids and paralyzing you or 2 The acids have not dissipated upon waking, giving the same effect.

Patrick

[Stillwater]

Since we have plenty of supernatural views, maybe I could provide a scientific view (no offense at all intended, I just like to look at things from multiple aspects).
During sleep, a mild acid is secreted from the brain into the nervous system. This prevents the electrochemical emissions from nerves, effectively paralyzing you to prevent you from acting out your dreams. From what I have deduced, sleep paralysis is either: 1 A simple case of the brain not recognizing that you are once again conscious, hence still producing those acids and paralyzing you or 2 The acids have not dissipated upon waking, giving the same effect.

Oh, I do not doubt that this is likely what happens during REM, and why we are paralyzed- the original question I was tossing about was why would this state be related to projections, and what could that possibly mean. I brought that up a bit earlier, but I am sure you read it.


As I have seen, mainstream scientific answers do seem most plausible for what projectors originally held in a mystical light, but at the same, time, there does appear to be something going on that does not accord perfectly with the more accepted scientific models of the universe, perception, and personal identity, as it is difficult to explain experiences such as inward lists, as well as the Miss Z and remote viewing experiment, which though few and far between, do show commonalities which are intriguing.

[kiwibonga]

I had a sleep paralysis episode shortly following a lucid dream today.

Towards the end of the dream, I closed my eyes, and when I opened them, I was on my bed again. For some reason, I wanted only one thing: to wake up. I did not try projecting, which I regret, because I probably would have had no problem doing it!

In any case, I was stuck and tried moving. That's when I heard my dad behind me, telling me to get out of bed (we don't live together though, he's several hundred miles away!). I tried to get up but I was paralyzed completely. I tried to talk, but I couldn't. I let out a very weak grunt, and my dad tried to lift me, that's when I thought "That tickles!" As soon as I said that, he started tickling me. It just felt so real, I was laughing so much I couldn't breathe anymore. That's when I said "stop!" And it stopped instantly. I tried to move again, and all I could do was open and close my eyes. Then I said "I can move! I can move!" and instantly I was able to move around, regained feeling in my entire body in an instant, and got up.

I have a hard time believing that it was just coincidence... After all, if it was chemical in any way, how could the sentence "I can move" have a direct effect that completely canceled the paralysis in a split second?

Then again, it's not easy to tell what is cause and what is effect when you're suffering from "dream lag" :p

[fuse]

I dont know if someone already said this but sleeping paralysis occurs to stop a person acting out a dream, or when they are in a deep sleep.

[Stillwater]

I dont know if someone already said this but sleeping paralysis occurs to stop a person acting out a dream, or when they are in a deep sleep.

Yeah, I and others have mentioned it around six times, but thanks for pointing it out again, it is one of the key ideas to remember here.

[fuse]

Oh lol, sorry about that, Anyway i found somemore information about sleep paralysis that i think everyone should read.

http://www.robertpeterson.org/asp.htm