so got drunk couple nights ago, got to talking and what do you know religion comes up. that's all fine and dandy till i open my mouth about obe's and aps, remote viewing ect... and two of the people in the room instantly thought i was insane or being controlled by the devil.. SO i laughed really hard LOL right... I said the devil, i don't believe in a devil, demons, ect.. but i do believe in higher beings and planes and what not. so as i was talking this person pulls a bible out of no were and hits me with it.... WTF what is wrong with people that believe in the bible Jesus and what not.
HAHA not in any part of our convo did i say anything bad about the bible and the christian religion. i was just telling them about some of the benefits of what we do and how that is my type of religion. to end the story with a bang. i got kinda mad and said some hurtfull things about how Christians are evil because they don't accept, they just force there ways on people. bad thing to say i guess the girl pulled out mace and maced me, so in short first rule of AP. we don't talk about AP. Second rule we don't talk about AP. if some one asks why just reply with it will get you hit with a bible and then with mace in the face... got to love people who cant accept things for what they truly are hahaha.
Well.... I can't say I don't relate to some degree.. I have never been assaulted, but my family, my wife and my wifes family are all very Christian, in the sense that they would never consider the possibility that Christianity isn't the be all end all of truth in the universe. The will tolerate my talk about Buddhism but I can't comfortably talk about the astral. I have found, that most people no matter what there there dogmatic religious beliefs if they are set firmly in them, they can't tolerate even the faintest notion that they may not be accurate or even entertain the idea that truth may be found somewhere else. I am just glad for places like this forum where you can share your experiences and people are appreciative and supportive.
Some people are just brainwashed into thinking anyone who doesn't believe what they do is evil.
Don't take it personally though. :)
just thought it was a funny story and try to warn people. i did'nt evern know these people. we met them at a bar and we were partying with them. just never thought i would ever get maced or hit with a bible hahaha. o by they way it dose hurt as bad as it says in the directions hahaha... so just be carefull all you ap'ers out there haha.
tell me about it. I told my boyfriend and he laughed about it and asked me if i was on drugs. Cheeky bugger. I won't go there again , plus would never be able to talk to anyone bout it either. :-( they would think i'm mad . Shame x
Quote from: kelsie900 on April 30, 2011, 21:29:30
tell me about it. I told my boyfriend and he laughed about it and asked me if i was on drugs. Cheeky bugger. I won't go there again , plus would never be able to talk to anyone bout it either. :-( they would think i'm mad . Shame x
Well, no worries! You can talk about it to your hearts content here on the Astral Pulse! :)
That wasn't mace that was holy water...
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
Quote from: Astral316 on April 30, 2011, 22:51:36
That wasn't mace that was holy water...
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
If that was the case i may need an exorcisiom hahah cuz it burnt like a Mother f-er. and even though my face was falling off i did think about being a smart butt and say thoes exact words hahaha.
Quote from: kelsie900 on April 30, 2011, 21:29:30
tell me about it. I told my boyfriend and he laughed about it and asked me if i was on drugs. Cheeky bugger. I won't go there again , plus would never be able to talk to anyone bout it either. :-( they would think i'm mad . Shame x
do waht i did to my gf made her try it with me and she got way freaked out. said she thought she was having a seizier. so she got to the vibes and maby a lil farther cuz she said she saw a bunch of picks of random thigns that were really clear. she hasent done it since but she bealves me now hahah.
My theory is that everyone AP's, just some peoples believe system gets in the way of them remembering it. I have met several people I know in the Astral that I am sure they didn't remember it. I ran into my own mother when visiting my grandparents who had passed. I remember it as an OOB she only remembers it as a dream.
the8reader
Thanks man,no offence,but I laughed like crazy,ha,ha,ha.It is belivers S&M love,safe word-God.And thank God it is commanded to them to be peacful :-D
you just let her get away with spraying you with mace?
those people have reasons for their lifestyle. it's not up to us to decide that they are wrong or right. i also wouldnt say that we were any better. our common path may seem to have a bigger perspective, that's all really.
This gives me creeps. Its like living among zombies and you are forced to act like them so they won't eat you alive.
Its one thing to hold on wrong beliefs and quite another to become violent to defend them. Sounds like a borderline mental disorder, the belief is like a virus that tries to protect itself at any cost and uses the believer to keep itself alive. They are possessed by it.
This happens not only with religious beliefs. Say for example, a brainwashed female rights activist can go mad at mere mention of the fact that many housewives cheat. Its an ordinary fact for most of us, but for her it becomes an attack.
I hope there will be a cure for such behavior in future.
Quote from: Lexy on May 01, 2011, 05:07:48
you just let her get away with spraying you with mace?
It fine it wasent that bad, and i dont like to get to bent out of shape over small things like mace haha. and pressing charges is just going to take to much time.. and i dont hit girls sooo not much i can do haha but laugh witch made her alot more mad. got her to leave.
Quote from: Psan on May 01, 2011, 09:36:15
This gives me creeps. Its like living among zombies and you are forced to act like them so they won't eat you alive.
Its one thing to hold on wrong beliefs and quite another to become violent to defend them. Sounds like a borderline mental disorder, the belief is like a virus that tries to protect itself at any cost and uses the believer to keep itself alive. They are possessed by it.
This happens not only with religious beliefs. Say for example, a brainwashed female rights activist can go mad at mere mention of the fact that many housewives cheat. Its an ordinary fact for most of us, but for her it becomes an attack.
I hope there will be a cure for such behavior in future.
HAHAHAHA i cant agree more with you. that is a funny post. sorry if its not supposed to be funny but you have some underlying humor that is killing me right now. thanx needed that for the day to continue.
Glad your eyes are ok, man.....mace sucks. I would've pressed charges. People cant go around harming others because they don't like what their saying.
And who the hell hits someone with a bible? What kind of people do you hang around with? XD
Quote from: Dazino on May 01, 2011, 15:02:38
Glad your eyes are ok, man.....mace sucks. I would've pressed charges. People cant go around harming others because they don't like what their saying.
And who the hell hits someone with a bible? What kind of people do you hang around with? XD
so long story short, me and friend went to bar... brought some people over for a night cap... partied a bit...talked... got hit with a bible hahahaha still craks me up... talked some more while being smart butt... got maced.... put beer on buring face... Found cure all for mace... went to bed... so i hang out wiht my friends and single crazies i guess hahaha. just another night in my funny little world....
i prob deserved it a bit. when i get drunk i can be a big smart butt and i didnt like her from the begining so ya not saying its all my fault but def.. pushed all her buttons.
Talk about AP! Talk! Spread the word. Don't hide it any more!
Quote from: Summerlander on May 01, 2011, 15:16:51
Talk about AP! Talk! Spread the word. Don't hide it any more!
Ya spread the word. and we can push it on people useing mace and a bible made by our words. haha i just print off all the pages in the forum. theres our bible. ima go crazzy and hit people with it so hard that they project and stuff. hahaha im jking just tying to say i did spread the word but just be a lil cautious haha.
Quote from: Summerlander on May 01, 2011, 15:16:51
Talk about AP! Talk! Spread the word. Don't hide it any more!
Come out of the closet! I mean, the body!
Yeah...BEND the rules! BEND it like Beckham!
you guys can talk about it all you want i am going to take more action and just hit people with our posts haha (IN THE FACE!!!!!!) hahaha :-P or is the back of the head better for beating things into people... i could ask my priest i bet he knows :evil: hahah they have been doing it for many many many years.... :|
Quote from: the8reader on May 01, 2011, 15:38:45
ima go crazzy and hit people with it so hard that they project and stuff.
lol. the whole thread is funny, but i really liked the above comment:)
that was pretty funny pod.
Do
So beer in your eyes cures mace? Or you just drink so much of if that you don't care anymore?
Quote from: Leary Herring on May 03, 2011, 21:04:57
"Christians" have been taught formality, rigid thinking, discrimination, judgement and fear. It is unlikely an astral projector and a Christian could have a productive dialogue.
perhaps not, if the proper "angle of attack" were considered (by either participant). i have done so many times in my job. you just have to find the terminology that they are comfortable with, the language of their culture. it works well.
does cocaine make your eyeballs numb?
Quoteyou just have to find the terminology that they are comfortable with, the language of their culture. it works well.
Yes, this is absolutely essential when having a discussion with people of other faiths and views.
For instance, when speaking with people of the Abrahamic religions, when inevitably asked if I "believe in God", I almost always say yes. Most precisely, my status with respect to a deity is agnosticism, but I believe strongly in a systematic line of ethics and compassionate treatment of other beings, and in metaphysical realities- to most Abrahamic people, the term for this and the method of recognizing it in others is belief in God, since this is how they approach these concepts, but when I say God, to myself I mean the aforementioned ethical and metaphysical concepts, rather than a deity per se. The reason is pretty simple- for many of these folks, you either believe in God and the whole kit-and-kaboodle, or you are an atheist, pure and simple, and if you are an atheist, you have no values in their eyes at all.
Not all of this group think that way, naturally, but a significant number do. I have found this to be especially true of many Muslims; a surefire way to start ill feelings and arguments up is to say you don't believe in God when asked; I try to stress the similarities with them between what they value and I do, and to point out that the differences are generally matters of language and approach, and not concept; the end result is generally they assure me I am a follower of God, and not a lost cause, but probably some kind of heretic as well. Goodtimes. If I wanted to talk about concepts like projection, and non-physical beings, for instance, it is the absolute best approach to start talking about Muhammed's meditations in the cave, and the realm of the Djin Allah created, and the Sufi's travels, since this is the lens they are prepeared to view mysticism through.
And the same for Catholics. Very few of them will like talk of what we practice here- it smacks of devil-play; on the other hand, connect it to the visions of the saints, and their communion with God, and the concept is suddenly far more accessible. Cultural context is everything.
Someone who sprays you with mace is not acting like a Christian.
Christ is love.
Quote from: the8reader on April 30, 2011, 20:12:39
so got drunk couple nights ago, got to talking and what do you know religion comes up. that's all fine and dandy till i open my mouth about obe's and aps, remote viewing ect... and two of the people in the room instantly thought i was insane or being controlled by the devil.. SO i laughed really hard LOL right... I said the devil, i don't believe in a devil, demons, ect.. but i do believe in higher beings and planes and what not. so as i was talking this person pulls a bible out of no were and hits me with it.... WTF what is wrong with people that believe in the bible Jesus and what not.
HAHA not in any part of our convo did i say anything bad about the bible and the christian religion. i was just telling them about some of the benefits of what we do and how that is my type of religion. to end the story with a bang. i got kinda mad and said some hurtfull things about how Christians are evil because they don't accept, they just force there ways on people. bad thing to say i guess the girl pulled out mace and maced me, so in short first rule of AP. we don't talk about AP. Second rule we don't talk about AP. if some one asks why just reply with it will get you hit with a bible and then with mace in the face... got to love people who cant accept things for what they truly are hahaha.
"for what they truly are"? you cant show me evidence to why they are like that can u? and then u go to people and preach? maybe they dont want to belief something some dude tells them in a bar? they have a right to belief whatever they want, from their perspective you are wrong, and you cant accept that because of your ego? you need to control their mind into thinking your right so you get the comfort u seek?
Quote from: alfalfa on May 04, 2011, 11:29:44
"for what they truly are"? you cant show me evidence to why they are like that can u? and then u go to people and preach? maybe they dont want to belief something some dude tells them in a bar? they have a right to belief whatever they want, from their perspective you are wrong, and you cant accept that because of your ego? you need to control their mind into thinking your right so you get the comfort u seek?
Might I ask, how that's any different to what you're currently attempting to do here on this forum?
Quite honestly, I can't disagree with your assessment of the8reader's post... but on the flip side of that coin, you're kind of the pot calling the kettle black here. You're able to see hypocrisy in others, but not in yourself... I find that interesting.
alfalfa, perhaps reading your own words directed back at you will help you to understand how they might sound to the8reader...
you cant show me evidence to why he is like that can u? and then u go to people and preach? maybe he doesn't want to belief something some chick tells him in a bar? he has a right to belief whatever he wants, from his perspective you are wrong, and you cant accept that because of your ego? you need to control his mind into thinking your right so you get the comfort u seek?
do your own words still carry validity in this new context?
edit: i'm not trying to pick on you alfalfa, i scrutinize myself just as stringently. i don't always catch myself when i say, or type, something that might offend others, but i usually do afterwords, lol. then i seek to discover the true motives behind what i said, and change my behavior. for me, it is a first step in controlling my ego.
oh man this feels like childhood grudges lol, HE STOLE MY LOLIPOP!
Removed profanity ~Xanth
did it touch you alfalfa, because he used the phrase "truly are".. to you truly is a definite thing OR he used it in a context where he is making it seem like a definite thing ... when really ... its personal and relative to each person "truth" ?
or one can't know what is the truth ?
because no evidence ?
EDIT :: all due respect to OP .. i understand you perfectly , you just slipped up at end , and this is has triggered "observant" aflalfa to correct you, thank you kind sir alfalfa for pointing this heavy mistake to him.
no problem, it is for the good of xanth and for science..
Quote from: alfalfa on May 04, 2011, 15:17:47
oh man this feels like childhood grudges lol, HE STOLE MY LOLIPOP!
grow up xanth you dushbag
And now you resort to name calling... *sigh*
How sad for you.
If you were being honest, we could has assisted you in learning to expand your mind... but it's clear that you've closed it off completely.
I pity you, however I do wish you nothing but the best in the rest of your life...
Quote from: Xanth on May 04, 2011, 15:46:23
And now you resort to name calling... *sigh*
How sad for you.
If you were being honest, we could has assisted you in learning to expand your mind... but it's clear that you've closed it off completely.
I pity you, however I do wish you nothing but the best in the rest of your life...
i do not resort to name calling, i resort to emotion
so what is your reasoning behind saying that my mind is closed?
i pity you too, but im not telling you that because it hurts you, here i say it because you dont understand the deepness to theese 3 words
what would you suggest for me to open my mind? really i thought i was open minded but if you think not , i will pay attention to that
Alfalfa sounds like he has psychological problems. That's sad. Poor guy. :-(
Quote from: Lexy on May 04, 2011, 16:05:52
Alfalfa sounds like he has psychological problems. That's sad. Poor guy. :-(
I whole-fully agree.
Very sad indeed.
OH WELL!
If alfalfa really does, I think he is fully able to digest this fact... So , lets be a good community and assist this guy back on the right path, how he should be acting, behaving and using his brain? Lexy, you could be the first , since your mind has calculated some behavioural patterns and judgements on him, do share, because this is life - changing for alfalfa. I beg you to care , for the sake of alfalfa.( and science )
peace & love
d3nd3
xxx
are you and alfalfa boyfriend and girlfriend ? :wink:
:NoY:
is it still an insult if you spell it wrong? lol :lol:
this here is what i mean d3nd3. you didn't add to the conversation, you tried to call out another member. granted, lexy made it personal, but your job (as a member who agreed to the AUP when you signed up) is to report such comments to a moderator, not take it into your own hands. that's where stuff gets out of control.
peace & love
personalreality
xxx
(for science)
Cuppa tea, anyone? I can make the best cuppa tea in the world. And then we can discuss some more AP. :-D
Looks like it is time for people to stay awhile and listen.
Here, take a seat- no really, take a seat; take a seat!
*takes the seat*
Makes some tea for everyone and this is how he makes it:
1 - Put the kettle on and, as you wait for it to boil, warm a ceramic pot by pouring 1/4 of a cup of water in and microwaving it on full power for 1 minute. Don't use metal pots as these interfere with the tea flavour.
2 - Drain the water from the pot and work out its size before bunging the tea in. It's 1 tea bag per cup or a couple per pint. Use tea bags instead of loose tea leaves so that the result will have as less bitter-tasting tannin as possible.
3 - The kettle has just boiled which is perfect timing because, at its hottest, the water will ensure that the brewing of the tea will happen as quickly as possible. This will also prevent the release of bitter chemicals. However, lower temperatures are required if you are using green tea. By the way, never use water that's already been boiled as it contains less dissolved oxygen than fresh tap water. Oxygen speeds up the release of polyethanols from the tea leaves which are the chemicals that give tea its flavour.
4 - Brew the tea for 3 minutes and no longer or this will promote a major release of polyphenolic compounds that will ruin the taste of the tea. Take the tea bags out. Stir the tea and wait for 1-2 minutes before serving unless you want to slurp it or burn your throat. The ideal temperature for tea consumption is 60-65°C.
5 - Add the milk to the cup first. It should be fresh and chilled. If poured first, the milk will cool the oncoming hot tea rather than the other way around which would only render the milk's proteins useless. Get the shortbread and enjoy the best cuppa experience! Here's a tip: tea seems to taste better after an outdoor activity.
Now you can make the best tea too! 8-)
Now, here's a question for everyone. What do you think the benefits of the Phase (OOBEs/Astral Projection/Lucid Dreams) are? Let's gather a list of reasons why everyone should do it. And then we can direct newbies here if they have doubts. Even if it's theory or speculation besides facts - just post it. Have your say! This could be fun! SHOOT! :wink:
For Science !!!
Your account is for YOU only.
You may use your account to post your opinions, your thoughts, and your views within the guidelines stated on this page. You may NOT use your account to post for people who are not members or have had their posting permissions removed. You also may not grant others access to your account. ~Xanth
I don't think everybody should try it, but anyone who's interested in it should, and really, why not? It's fun, and interesting.
It just sounds like those people have a long way to go before they break their cycle. Or they're going to have a ton of fun in Astral Heaven.
Quote from: Summerlander on May 04, 2011, 18:23:08
What do you think the benefits of the Phase (OOBEs/Astral Projection/Lucid Dreams) are? Let's gather a list of reasons why everyone should do it.
Other than allowing people to see their Silver Cord and their Chakras and stuff it could help in finding God. Right now I am trying to see if it improves my Tarot card reading skill... and picking lottery numbers (duh! ;) ).
Like Traveler I am not so sure this is for everyone. Paranoid Schizophrenics might not deal with it well. Those who go straight to hell during OBEs and NDEs might not want to do it either.
:evil:
there is an important aspect of traveling to the otherworlds that modern OBE techniques tend to neglect.
traditionally, the apprentice, the new walker, had to undergo personal cleansing and stabilizing before they were able to go to the other worlds for that very reason. they would get thrown into "hell-like" realms that were manifestations of their own inner turmoil that hadn't been dealt with. That was all part of the process of becoming a walker. Nowadays, such preparation is neglected in favor of the short cut, modern OBE techniques. In occult traditions you wouldn't even been eligible to learn the techniques of projection until you had evolved personally and spiritually to a degree that was determined by your master.
Quote from: personalreality on May 06, 2011, 12:06:18
In occult traditions you wouldn't even been eligible to learn the techniques of projection until you had evolved personally and spiritually to a degree that was determined by your master.
I came late to the Rosicrucian/GD/Thelema Schools -- long after I had been meditating and experiencing spontaneous OBEs. I met a lot of egotistical and ignorant members who lorded their initiation status over the lower ranks. I met only one who I thought might be tolerable as a 'master'.
And yes, it was clear that AP attempts would not be on the menu for at least a couple years.
I didn't join.
I agree, which is why i am not in an occult order either. I still believe that the concern is valid, but I don't feel that anyone but me can really know when I'm ready to take the next step. I couldn't handle having a "master". I'm too much of a solitary kind of practitioner.
I've made the mistake of getting drawn into conversations about the afterlife. Everthings goes great until they suddenly ask where you're getting all these ideas from.
If there's someone I'd like to talk to about AP I find it safest to start with lucid dreaming first. If they're not very enthusiastic you know to give it a miss and you havent made yourself look mental.
I might bring up chakra's aswell. The subject's just about common enough for you only to be considered a bit strange instead of crazy.
If they still seem interested after LDing and chakra's it's a pretty safe bet they wont run when you bring up AP.
If you want to bring it up straight away you can always talk about someone you know who's into it. I know this native american medicine man and I'll bring him up in conversations sometimes and the metaphysical practices he's into. You can tell pretty quickly whether it would be safe to tell them you're into the same sort of stuff.
Quote from: Summerlander on May 04, 2011, 18:06:06
Cuppa tea, anyone? I can make the best cuppa tea in the world. And then we can discuss some more AP. :-D
just as long as you keep the mace and the bible out of it.. you can count me in hahaha
LOL! ^^
I'll add my input. I thing the Phase (OOBEs/AP/LDs) can help us in so many ways. It can improve our confidence, we can strengthen our weaknesses, we can get ideas there very easily (already manifest), memory retrieval, telepathy (my experiences suport this), precognition (my experiences support this), contact with the dead (my experience supports this with validations!), indulging in fantasies, etc etc.
Quote from: Rudolph on May 06, 2011, 11:50:53
Paranoid Schizophrenics might not deal with it well.
:evil:
Hi, Rudolph! Great to see you here! About paranoid schizos...on their own it is probably not a good idea but...if they have support from someone who is more experienced, it might even help them to get to the root of their problem as it deals with the unconscious mind while the haloperidol they take helps to sort out their dopamine levels...you know, sharpen the cerebral tool for motivation and more efficient cognition and behaviour.
Thus they would tackle the root of the problem directly (using this newly-found
metaphysical therapy) while the drugs help with dopaminergic transmission in the meantime which will put them in the right mood during waking states.
What do you think? :wink:
in regard to schizophrenics, they are already there.
they see the otherworlds overlaid on our common physical reality.
but they don't know how to control it, it just comes through as sensory overload which makes it nearly impossible to function.
if they could be trained, they could be the seers of our time. it's the treatment they are given by western medicine that makes it worse, exacerbates the issue.
one might even say that in native traditions, such a person would be sought out to become a shaman's apprentice. the shaman knows when the child is born that they possess the gift. i think it's the same gift, but the way schizophrenics are treated in the west just shuts them down, it's too much to handle, it's scary and not at all nurturing.
This is a simulation of what it's like in the mind of a schizophrenic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s33Y5nI5Wbc
Quote from: Summerlander on May 07, 2011, 09:26:29
This is a simulation of what it's like in the mind of a schizophrenic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s33Y5nI5Wbc
That scared me a bit. It was like a bad trip.
QuoteThis is a simulation of what it's like in the mind of a schizophrenic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s33Y5nI5Wbc
You're dead.This seems pretty accurate for a paranoid schizophrenic. The severity and frequency of the hallucinations varies with the individual, and some may not have auditory experiences, but only visual ones. It really is very debilititating though, especially when a person is driven to question they're very reality.
You're dead.I could see devices like that being useful in situations such as helping to train jury members for trials involving specific kinds of insanity defenses; juries today are quite reluctant to accept insanity, and we have prisons full of schizophrenics on one side of the institutional bars, and thousands and thousands on the streets now too, thanks to Reagan's cuts to mental health programs.
You're dead.
i Have a Question??? so if skitzos can see and hear the other side, wich is a great gift they cant control. have they done research into this or just call them crazzy pump them full of drugs and let them walk around like zombies... has anyone tried to train one to control it and how hard would it be too control it. I bet you would have to start at a very young age huh?
Well, the almost insurmountable obstacle you would face trying that is the prevailing scientific paradigm. The scientific community today believes almost unanomously in materialism (all of reality is explained by physical matter), and materialism does not leave any room at all for considering that everything out of the ordinary a schizophrenic experiences is not a hallucination- it is pretty much assumed at the outset. So you will never get funding for such an endeavor, since the bodies who could support such research would view it as exploitation of the mentally ill to further half-baked new age mumbo-jumbo that has no basis in reality. Getting a university to pay for research like that is like trying to convince a Southern Baptist that maybe he should donate some of his salary toward promoting Hinduism; there is just too much ideological friction for it to work.
Perhaps a DMT treatment coupled with AP/LD therapy would be ideal for them.
Quote from: Stillwater on May 07, 2011, 13:46:59
Well, the almost insurmountable obstacle you would face trying that is the prevailing scientific paradigm. The scientific community today believes almost unanomously in materialism (all of reality is explained by physical matter), and materialism does not leave any room at all for considering that everything out of the ordinary a schizophrenic experiences is not a hallucination- it is pretty much assumed at the outset. So you will never get funding for such an endeavor, since the bodies who could support such research would view it as exploitation of the mentally ill to further half-baked new age mumbo-jumbo that has no basis in reality. Getting a university to pay for research like that is like trying to convince a Southern Baptist that maybe he should donate some of his salary toward promoting Hinduism; there is just too much ideological friction for it to work.
!!!!
Modern scientific method in the medical field requires statistical significance and reliable repeatability.
There is nothing to stop anyone from starting The New Age Mumbo-Jumbo Clinic for Personality Disorder Research. And there are drugless mental training therapies in development and even in practice for milder cases. Just offhand I do not see how AP could help at all in such a case. Part of Conscious AP is consciously and knowingly and willingly exploring altered states while these poor souls are seriously lacking in those necessary attributes.
Reagan?! How is a guy who hasn't been president for over 20 years somehow relevant to a discussion about contemporary treatment options? What did Clinton do to rectify the action? Nothing. And it isn't even a back burner issue for the present president. Why not complain about them? Besides, when you get right down to it, what does the FEDERAL govt have to do with Mental Health? Nothing, that's what. The State Mental Hospital is a better target for your complaints. I suggest you take the matter up with them. But then that would require personal effort and is much more demanding then tossing out complaints about dead presidents.
Quote from: Rudolph on May 07, 2011, 17:50:05
Modern scientific method in the medical field requires statistical significance and reliable repeatability.
There is nothing to stop anyone from starting The New Age Mumbo-Jumbo Clinic for Personality Disorder Research. And there are drugless mental training therapies in development and even in practice for milder cases. Just offhand I do not see how AP could help at all in such a case. Part of Conscious AP is consciously and knowingly and willingly exploring altered states while these poor souls are seriously lacking in those necessary attributes.
Reagan?! How is a guy who hasn't been president for over 20 years somehow relevant to a discussion about contemporary treatment options? What did Clinton do to rectify the action? Nothing. And it isn't even a back burner issue for the present president. Why not complain about them? Besides, when you get right down to it, what does the FEDERAL govt have to do with Mental Health? Nothing, that's what. The State Mental Hospital is a better target for your complaints. I suggest you take the matter up with them. But then that would require personal effort and is much more demanding then tossing out complaints about dead presidents.
man...
i want to like you so bad, i really do. you're obviously intelligent and i appreciate that.
i have my bachelors (in the mail as we speak) in psychology and i can tell you from first hand experience (both as a patient in drug rehab for two years and as a counselor and intern at medical facilities for the past 4 years) that you are really missing the big picture. yes, scientific studies require statistical significance, this is true. the science isn't bad, the scope of vision as to what gets researched is bad. beyond that, there is the proverbial black list effect. if your research isn't seen as "socially acceptable" or capable of providing more money to the right people, then your research doesn't get published. peer-review my butt, the editor of medical journals decides who gets published and who doesn't, and if they don't like your research, they tell all of their contacts at every other journal not to publish you and you get black listed. you can't do research unless you get funding and you only get funding if you research is within orthodox parameters. bottom line.
beyond that, in practice, the only mental health treatments that get supported are the ones that make money. do you really think that the reason psychology and psychiatry prescribe more medications than ever before is because the meds really work!? bullcrap. it''s like that because that's where the money is. and the government has EVERYTHING to do with mental health. Who do you think approves the medications that are being shoved down people's throats with little to no concern for the side effects? the FDA, ie, the government. who control public mental health facilities? the government. even the private facilities abide by government sanctions and laws. there is NOTHING in the USA that the government doesn't have their hands in.
QuoteThere is nothing to stop anyone from starting The New Age Mumbo-Jumbo Clinic for Personality Disorder Research.
Mainly funding. Those who gather enough personal capitol to do the research themselves, like Monroe and Charles Tart struggle and struggle with keeping their enterprise afloat, and even when they produce seemingly repeatable results, it is still difficult to get legitimate attention, since what they are suggesting is occurring is so far off of what the community as a whole is willing to accept. Case in point- project PEAR at Princeton was apparently producing very rigorous statistics over literally millions of trials that seemed to imply that human conscious choice could remotely affect random events in the physical world to a very slight but statisticly significant and consistent degree. Now if this is true, there should have been a dozen follow-up studies in parallel at other universities and labs, but there were none- only attempts to write off the findings. There is a very real barrier that keeps alternative views from being entertained if they are far enough outside of the accepted pail.
QuoteReagan?! How is a guy who hasn't been president for over 20 years somehow relevant to a discussion about contemporary treatment options? What did Clinton do to rectify the action? Nothing. And it isn't even a back burner issue for the present president. Why not complain about them?
Oh yes, every president since is just as guilty for not reversing the budget cuts. I merely mention Reagan since it happened under his watch and guidance, and that changes that occur under one president are rarely changed immediately, since it takes so much effort to get Congress to change their position again. None of the Democrats really liked the concept of Homeland Security, yet with Obama now in office, there is very little talk of repealling it; political changes are long and laborious, unfortunately.
Quotebeyond that, in practice, the only mental health treatments that get supported are the ones that make money. do you really think that the reason psychology and psychiatry prescribe more medications than ever before is because the meds really work!? bullcrap. it''s like that because that's where the money is.
Yes, I am going to have to go with Personal reality again. The pharmaceutical turst is a powerful lobbying gorup, and has made a billion-dollar industry out of railroading drugs through a now-toothless FDA. Cognitve approaches may be just as effective or even significantly more effective, but you can't prudce good cognitiveists in a factory like you can the doctor in a bottle.
Quote from: personalreality on May 07, 2011, 18:47:04
man...
i want to like you so bad, i really do. you're obviously intelligent and i appreciate that.
i have my bachelors (in the mail as we speak) in psychology and i can tell you from first hand experience (both as a patient in drug rehab for two years and as a counselor and intern at medical facilities for the past 4 years) that you are really missing the big picture. yes, scientific studies require statistical significance, this is true. the science isn't bad, the scope of vision as to what gets researched is bad. beyond that, there is the proverbial black list effect. if your research isn't seen as "socially acceptable" or capable of providing more money to the right people, then your research doesn't get published. peer-review my butt, the editor of medical journals decides who gets published and who doesn't, and if they don't like your research, they tell all of their contacts at every other journal not to publish you and you get black listed. you can't do research unless you get funding and you only get funding if you research is within orthodox parameters. bottom line.
beyond that, in practice, the only mental health treatments that get supported are the ones that make money. do you really think that the reason psychology and psychiatry prescribe more medications than ever before is because the meds really work!? bullcrap. it''s like that because that's where the money is. and the government has EVERYTHING to do with mental health. Who do you think approves the medications that are being shoved down people's throats with little to no concern for the side effects? the FDA, ie, the government. who control public mental health facilities? the government. even the private facilities abide by government sanctions and laws. there is NOTHING in the USA that the government doesn't have their hands in.
The Federal Government is NOT the only source of funding. Folks getting stuck in that mindset is a big part of the problem. That is why I suggested starting your own operation if you are serious. Look at L Ron Hubbard. :wink:
And once again, why did you say, " and the government has EVERYTHING to do with mental health."? oh...
I guess I phrased that badly. I did NOT mean to say the government had nothing to do with it in actual practice. My point is that mental health is not the Federal govt's job.
That doesn't mean the Feds aren't doing all sorts of things wayyy outside their job description. Personally I think the FDA needs to be shut down and the job can be turned over to some sort of Underwriter's Laboratory type outfit. Get twice the performance for half the price.
Quote from: Rudolph on May 07, 2011, 21:24:34
Look at L Ron Hubbard. :wink:
low blow, lol. :lol:
Quote
And once again, why did you say, " and the government has EVERYTHING to do with mental health."? oh...
I guess I phrased that badly. I did NOT mean to say the government had nothing to do with it in actual practice. My point is that mental health is not the Federal govt's job.
my mistake
Quote
That doesn't mean the Feds aren't doing all sorts of things wayyy outside their job description. Personally I think the FDA needs to be shut down and the job can be turned over to some sort of Underwriter's Laboratory type outfit. Get twice the performance for half the price.
I agree that they need to be shut down. I also believe that the FDA is a part of the "thinning of the herds" and intentional weakening of the species so that when our alien overlords arrive we will be ripe for the picking.
i'm completely serious right now.
QuoteNone of the Democrats really liked the concept of Homeland Security, yet with Obama now in office, there is very little talk of repealling it; political changes are long and laborious, unfortunately.
That's because the fact is that the Dems created it. They only acted like they hated it when it looked like it would hurt Bush. They are experts at manipulating the press and the beliefs of the gullible masses.
The Patriot act was just a minor edit (to modernize to account for computer and internet and cell phone technology shifts) of the Clinton Anti-Terrorism act passed during the 5th year of his presidency, I think. Also the Partriot Act was a COMPLETELY Bipartisan effort in the House that was nearly complete before Bush was even sworn in. 9/11 merely fast tracked the debate and vote.
QuoteThat doesn't mean the Feds aren't doing all sorts of things wayyy outside their job description. Personally I think the FDA needs to be shut down and the job can be turned over to some sort of Underwriter's Laboratory type outfit. Get twice the performance for half the price.
This sounds like a plan. Anything would be better than the FDA we have now; their idea of testing is giving the drugs to a goldfish, and approving anything that does not kill it in 20 seconds or less. As long as there is a way of monitoring the quality control federally, without relying on federal beuracracy to actually do the job itself, I would be all for that.
Quote from: Stillwater on May 07, 2011, 23:33:09
As long as there is a way of monitoring the quality control federally, without relying on federal beuracracy to actually do the job itself, I would be all for that.
This sort of thing needs to be done basically across the board with the entire Federal bureaucracy. Look at those incompetent goofs in the SEC! They Audited the Bernie Maddof Hedge Fund. They sent in a TEAM of accountants and they stayed resident for about a week going over the books. They were right there on the premises!! A week later they walk out handing Bernie a clean bill of health and their Seal of Approval. About six months later the whole sheebang goes belly up. What a bunch of incompetent buffoons.
And the tyrannical Dems think the solution is to INCREASE Federal Oversight! What a joke. It makes no sense at all.
When real work needs to be done they need to sub-contract it out to private firms. Moodys or one of the other rating services could have smelled a rat in a few hours of looking over the books and double checking actual holdings.
So you guys reckon if a form of therapy involving AP was developed, schizophrenics wouldn't benefit from it? Despite the materialistic view, science acknowledges OOBEs/AP to be a real phenomenon, albeit misunderstood. So my question is: why not test this thing that is so misunderstood in order to see if it works as therapy on the mentally ill?
Regardless of the New Age mumbo jumbo, of course. Beliefs on its nature here are not concerned, just whether it can function as a 'remedy' or not. :roll:
Or perhaps people are reluctant to do this altogether because they fear ridicule. For some, talking about this is academic suicide. What do you guys think?
Quote from: Lexy on May 04, 2011, 00:12:39
does cocaine make your eyeballs numb?
Yes... very!!
Quote from: Summerlander on May 08, 2011, 15:11:25
So you guys reckon if a form of therapy involving AP was developed, schizophrenics wouldn't benefit from it? Despite the materialistic view, science acknowledges OOBEs/AP to be a real phenomenon, albeit misunderstood. So my question is: why not test this thing that is so misunderstood in order to see if it works as therapy on the mentally ill?
Regardless of the New Age mumbo jumbo, of course. Beliefs on its nature here are not concerned, just whether it can function as a 'remedy' or not. :roll:
Or perhaps people are reluctant to do this altogether because they fear ridicule. For some, talking about this is academic suicide. What do you guys think?
agree with this 110% i think they dont want to try it cuz it could work and may give thoes people more power than they 1. can handle 2. maby it might make them worse. but how do you know till you try. and it wouldent be that hard to fine some one and try some home tests hahah. but waht if you do help them, were do you go from there if you do cure or make it a controlled skitzo. and what do you think he could tell you when he/she could controle it. sounds like it would be a good experiment.. but it may turn out bad all the same.
Quote from: Bedeekin on May 08, 2011, 15:16:36
Yes... very!!
^^And lips and gums too when you rub the powder on them. It's an anaesthetic. By the way, where is this question coming from? Did someone make an association between cocaine and 'not talking about AP'? :-D
Quotewere do you go from there if you do cure or make it a controlled skitzo.
I guess the skitzo would have to 'cure' himself. Perhaps curing entails facing many nightmares and the therapy may be too much for some...like 'mental chemo-therapy'...
I think curing a schizophrenic (you need to say schizophrenic because there is a personality disorder called Schizoid Type Personality Disorder and they are often called schizos too. well, not really, no one says schizo, it's kind of pejorative, offensive.) would be incredibly difficult because the problem isn't in their "disorder", the problem is that they have spent their entire lives (usually schizophrenia doesn't present until the early 20s) being programmed to view reality in the same way as everyone else. Then suddenly everything changes and they don't know how to cope. Perhaps if schizophrenia can be genetically identified at birth, proper perceptual training can be provided so that when the individual reaches maturity and presents with schizophrenic symptoms, their perception will already be suited to handle the schism in their mind. This is actually exactly what a shaman does. They go to the otherworlds where their guides help them identify the next apprentice (perhaps a child born with energetic markers for schizophrenia). The child is then raised in the shamanic tradition so that when their visionary experience presents, they are prepared.
This also raises and interesting insight. Perhaps modern day schizophrenia is a genetic ghost of a lineage of shamans from the 'foretime', before our recorded history. Naturally it has been mutated and transformed by pressures from society over the millenia, but the remnant still exists.
^^Perhaps but, in our society, such individuals are dysfunctional and need to get their head excrement sorted out. :-D
Yeah, "curing" is also something that does not come up much in a discussion of schizophrenia. True schizophrenics generally have their condition for their entire lives; there are some cases where the symptoms level off over time, and in rare instances clear up completely, but most are generally not "cured". The cases where symptoms do seem to disappear, it is not well understood why. I know for the longest time it is was just straight tranqulizers like thorazine for many schizophrenics, and they say that lowers symptom rates... but then it lowers thinking and all neural activity period... so I am not so sure that is treatment as much as it is a way to tune them down so the staff does not need to use as much force to compell them.
Quote from: Stillwater on May 08, 2011, 17:17:26
Yeah, "curing" is also something that does not come up much in a discussion of schizophrenia. True schizophrenics generally have their condition for their entire lives; there are some cases where the symptoms level off over time, and in rare instances clear up completely, but most are generally not "cured". The cases where symptoms do seem to disappear, it is not well understood why. I know for the longest time it is was just straight tranqulizers like thorazine for many schizophrenics, and they say that lowers symptom rates... but then it lowers thinking and all neural activity period... so I am not so sure that is treatment as much as it is a way to tune them down so the staff does not need to use as much force to compell them.
i like this! and when is a cure i ment as such so they could controle it. not so much acctully cure it. but cured in the sense that it dosent bother them. or they can use it. maby the gov. has already looked into this and its blacklisted. who knows. haha
there is no such thing as a "cure" for anything, because nothing needs to be cured, merely understood and accepted.
physical ailment can be treated, but the truth underlying the condition must be understood or you're still just treating symptoms.
there are deeper concerns regarding illness that our science doesn't recognize, energetic considerations.