The Astral Pulse

My words exactly. Darn I've wanted to post that to Franks message

But the lessons we are here to learn are in my opinion chosen by us. And we only choose the lesson not the manner the lesson is going to be delivered, that is up to our free will and that of others.
I think that the result of suicide is dependent on the intent present at hhe moment. If one is running away from a situation the emotional load and the situation is likely to carry over to the astral and one would end up much like you described in your post.
However, if one is only acknowledging that the lesson is being delivered in a way that is actually harmful and impossible to complete the situation changes. The person is not running away from the problem but rather facing the fact the he/she is not equipped to learn it and needs to g back for more theory, so to speak.

And before anyone claims I'm a proponent of suicide as a primary method of problem solving I most empathically am not. But I take solace in the fact that I can in fact choose to end the lesson and go home instead of banging my head against the wall in futility.
Living is the primary way to solve life's problems.

2cents & L&L

jouni

That's probably the most powerful message I've ever read from the other side regarding suicide. It fits though with other things I've seen on the subject.
The Idea that someone who has suicided gets caught in a loop that they cannot break free of because they no longer have the facilities to change their mindset.

I remember hearing an interview with someone who had atempted suicide, and fortunately for him he didn't do it properly. He recalls an older woman that used to visit him in hospital, who exposed her badly scarred wrists and told him it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

It might be as Jouni says that there are some who are just unable to cope with the lesson they need to learn. It would be good though if people could be helped to understand this, see that maybe even if they can't learn this lesson, they can still go on to something else while still on this earth. There are always choices. That then leaves it up to the higher powers as to wether or not your due to call it quits.

The only problem I have with that last statement of mine is that I am a non-suicidally minded person trying to understand the options faced by somebody who is inclined to suicide.

James.

While I agree with much of the above, there is a school of thought which saya that we never have to deal with more than we can handle. It may seem like we cannot cope, but our strength and learning comes through choosing to cope.

Also, suicide seems like a rather selfish act, in that everyone else has to pick up the pieces.

Also, if we are here to learn lessons, rather like being at school until we graduate, then we delay our progress by choosing to drop out of the process. Sooner or later we're going to have to get back in the classroom. I don't see suicide as immoral or against Divine Law, just an inappropriate solution. There is always light at the end of the tunnel, even if we cannot see it from wherever we may be.

quote:

---

The only problem I have with that last statement of mine is that I am a non-suicidally minded person trying to understand the options faced by somebody who is inclined to suicide.

---

Well I've been there, and the best description of the "options" they have is none (in their mind).  Doing the simplest things in life (getting out of bed, preparing a meal, et.al.) seems impossibly painful.

quote:

---

Also, suicide seems like a rather selfish act, in that everyone else has to pick up the pieces.

---

Thing is, when someone is desperate enough to consider suicide, it's because it's literally too painful to live, regardless of the consequences (to either ourselves or those left behind).  I never understood this until I was facing it myself, but the decision to stay or leave is not based on what anyone else wants for us.  If you have the strength to consider others' feelings, then you've still got strength left to deal with your situation.

Greetings everyone,

Thanks Frank for sharing this with us.

But it goes to what we are saying in the other thread - people generally behave as they do in the physical world, quite simply because they have no real knowledge of the higher/inner/greater realities. In this case, a person killed himself in order to escape physical reality, not realising that he was taking his problems with him to the next reality without any chance of being able to resolve them in the Astral.

He will get another chance of course, but again, if people only realised the true value and meaning of their physical existence, then the world would be a very, very different place indeed - a much better place. And as I said before, there is a vast heirarchy of highly evolved beings ranging from Ascended Masters, through the Angelic heirarchy through Akashic level high intelligences (who are contactable) who work directly for the ongoing evolution of mankind. The higher always helping to raise the lower.

But right now we are at a critical point where man can either become steeped in even more materalism with technologies, leisure, wealth etc., or alternatively grasp Spiritual realities and change the direction of mankind forever. The dark forces (which are very real and very dangerous) are working against mankind through various individuals even now.

The forces of light will prevail, because all paths lead ultimately to the light, and as it does so, the physical world will begin to blend and harmonise with the Astral and become more etherealised, and eventually will be absorbed altogether sometime after the last human has started the final ascent,and the learning ground, the kindergarten that is the physical world in which we live and learn now will have served its purpose. That process will of course take aeons upon aeons of time as we know it, as there are still new souls being born every minute, and waiting to start out on the long cycle of incarnation and reincarnation before finding the final path home.

The physical world came out of the Astral - that is what Genesis I is all about - the creation of the Astral - not the physical world - and one day it will return to the Astral from whence it came as a density degree of the Akasha.

With best regards,

Adrian.

quote:

---

He will get another chance of course, but again, if people only realised the true value and meaning of their physical existence, then the world would be a very, very different place indeed - a much better place. And as I said before, there is a vast heirarchy of highly evolved beings ranging from Ascended Masters, through the Angelic heirarchy through Akashic level high intelligences (who are contactable) who work directly for the ongoing evolution of mankind. The higher always helping to raise the lower.

---

Exactly. But the trouble is that most people who get faced with a situation so dire that suicide seems like the only option don't know this.

Rael: Actually that school/university analogue is what I've used on several occasions. But what does a univ. student do when he has accidentally selected a course that is way above what he can handle at the moment? Waste time going through and flunk or drop the course and seek more basic knowledge first and then take the course again?


2cents & L&L

jouni

quote:

---

Focus15

P.S... If you are going to "quote" someone FRANK, give full credit....

---

Yes, I've known for a while now where you've been coming from.

Yours,
Frank

Frank, you're still making rigid distinctions between the "physical" and the "astral," where in fact these are only apparent, not fundamental. The "physical" and "non-physical" are all made of thought. There is only a seamless continuum of co-created whole/parts that exists eternally, in the now. All is thought/emotion. There is no "matter" as you see it -- that's just another holograph of the infinity of Being. The "astral" is as "real" and "dense" and the "physical," it's just a variation on the here/now. As you and Bruce Moen become more adept at interdimensional travel you'll begin to dispense with such notions as the physical being "dense matter" and the astral being "all thought." Everywhere and everything is a learning environment, both "there" and "here." Direct action is not limited to one or the other. There is no respite from what you call "thought-release-action" -- every thought still instantly manifests, even if you don't immediately perceive it as such. And what you refer to as "highly damaging emotions" are to be embraced and incorporated into oneself, into the bittersweet complexity of one's being; they are not to be "banished." They are part of one's character. Even if you try to discard them, they'll return to haunt you. Best to realize they are an aspect of your totality and accept them as a holon of yourself.

"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

The "astral" is as "real" and "dense" and the "physical," it's just a variation on the here/now.

That above is a sentence that just kinda grabs ya..   l like it.

As far as suicide, I think everyone has valid points. But I don't agree with all of them...  I think since we choose what happens to us and are in control of our lives, suicide is just the last decision some make because they have forgotten that fact...  

I personally don't believe there is a suicide loop.  I think technically [my opinion] 'one life ended' and it will start again and have another chance.  Maybe a different decision will be made.  I just don't see the reasoning behind a suicide loop, not if everything is about moving forward and making progess.  They are no loops in my opinion.  Are we not all the creators of our own lives???  Loops do not exist in that..  

But I also think anyone who had genuine knowledge of the astral and beyond that even, ... and was intent on studying and understanding the very nature of it, ....would not commit suicide.  How could they and miss their lesson?  Not if they really understood....  But since we are all at different places, I also feel that if someone were at point in their physical life and committed suicide, I would like to think the lesson learned would be.."There is always hope"..  

Most people know this instinctively, but how would you convince someone that hope exists if they had never known dispair in their entire life and existance of life?   It's an easy thing to say...."There is hope"..., but how would you prove it?  Certainly not with experience if you had never needed to feel hope..   The things that give us knowledge of hope are emotions and situations that involve dispair, trouble, pain and all of those supposedly negative emotions.  They are all necessary at some point in all of our lives to understand hope and KNOW what it is..    

Every dark emotion is valid and real and necessary to understand the suble emotions..  Happy and sad are easy emotions and are usually equated with immeditate surroundings... But hope is different.. It comes from experience.

Just my two cents.

Sincerely,
Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blossom:
The things that give us knowledge of hope are emotions and situations that involve dispair, trouble, pain and all of those supposedly negative emotions. They are all necessary at some point in all of our lives to understand hope and KNOW what it is.... Every dark emotion is valid and real and necessary to understand the suble emotions.. Happy and sad are easy emotions and are usually equated with immeditate surroundings... But hope is different.. It comes from experience.

---

Blossom, you speak with great wisdom, much understanding. Obviously, you have suffered, and understand the tremendous transformative power of pain, which can be for good or ill in our lives, depending on how we respond to it. So many people on alternative spirituality boards have this notion that we should "let go" of anything negative, and pretend our deep pains never happened. Some pain is given us not as something to be healed of, but as a learning experience, however aawful and unfortunate it may be when it strikes. I would that none of us had to suffer, and yet...it seems crucial in our lives, and since it's inescapable, I prefer to face it head-on if at all possible. Sometimes it's not possible; sometimes it's so mind-bendingly awful we are transformed beyond recognition. But I know one thing: simplistic approaches to questions such as suicide, pain, and suffering are ways of avoiding who and what we are. Those who espouse "letting go" anything unpleasant in our lives, and seeking out only positive experiences, are teaching avoidance of one of the main things we're here for, which is to learn sympathy for others, and thereby empathy.

As far as suicide, I definitely don't advocate it, and I have no idea of the spiritual consequences, but I have come close to committing it myself, and I know that, ultimately, it was my own decision that kept me from giving up. It was actually awful to have people telling me I couldn't kill myself because of them, because of the downward spiral it would create -- this just added guilt to the already horrible feelings I felt. Geeze, I thought. I'm not even allowed to kill myself! But nothing anybody told me really had an effect on me; ultimately I stayed alive because I decided that, even if life sucks terribly, there still may be work left for me to do here. The whole experience comletely changed my views on suicidals, and I gained new respect for the kinds of moral/philosophical issues they have to deal with, which society doesn't understand very well.

I've written an essay about grieving that touches a little on this concept, if you're interested. It's available at www.lillipierce.com/grieving.htm .

Blessings,
Dave


"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

I had an interesting experience on the skeptic's board

http://unfacts.org/cgi-bin/index.pl

the other day, wherein I was discussing the basis of belief with a fellow thinker who is more skeptical than myself of paranormal. (I am more skeptical than the average participant on the Astral Pulse forum, but less skeptical than the average "internet skeptic." )

At any rate, I had a moment of epiphany. Now, I have known for some time that a person can't be convinced of something they don't want to hear, but my epiphany went beyond that. I had a split second image of the perfection of having all these disparate points of view in community. The skeptic with whom I was conversing, was perfect in his stance, as was I in mine, and everyone else in theirs.

It was a very cool split second.

Rolling bear, I absolutely love your post. (Oh! And I just recognized you! HI!!!) This is not to say that I don't appreciate Frank's point of view, I do absolutely. But my path has led me to the same current understanding that you express. I could not have articulated it, though. Thank you.

Frank, thank you for your posts as well. They always make me think, and I always appreciate the time and effort that you put into them.

Separately, regarding suicide. I was suicidal, and I understand the mental state that leads one to taking their lives. Only two things out of the entire world kept me from attempting suicide - my mother and my husband - but it was a very long night of the soul to say the least.

I have a friend who committed suicide. To the extent that I may have had contact with him, it would seem - based on my limited experience with him - that he indeed regretted his choice, is doing fine, and spent longer 'hanging around' the physical plane than those people in my life who have passed to other means.  In fact I began to pay attention after his death - to the ADCs and so on that were reported from a suicide victim vs other victims. Informally it seems that suicides are more 'present' after they die, there are more convincing ADCs and so on - than other folks. You might want to see if you find the same as circumstances permit (ie as you hear of an ADC from this or that, etc.)

It is easy to come up with reasons why this may be the case - for instance suicides may have unfinished business that keeps them trying to fulfill obligations here or something. Of coures we may never really have a solid answer, until we have passed ourselves.

Love,

Patty

(Maybe instead of stonehenge we should all try to connect with a suicide friend and see what insights we can pull together as a group.)


Patty

Hello Rolling Bear...

My first thought is you are very perceptive..  You are right.. I have lived through lots of trauma in my life and came through.. I am still living through what some would consider tramua but it doesn't affect me anymore in a negative way..  I can take it in stride now.  I have lived my entire life learning about hope...  What strikes me is I had to have several bad experiences before I recognized hope for what it was and that it was wanting me to recognize it so I could move ahead in my life.. It kept tap tap tapping me on the shoulder.. Now I look ahead and KNOW there is something more out there..  

I read your article also..  It is extremely good and very interesting and I agree with many concepts in it..  You did an excellent job writing it.

Also,... I don't know if you believe in coincidences but something really odd about your article struck me.........[in the last paragraph]

The organization you mentioned ""The Brothers & Sisters of Charity".  I am very very familiar with them... My husband mentioned this organization to me just last week also in conversation [he is catholic too, but I am not]..  There is another major coincidence besides him mentioning this order to me that I really need to keep private that concerns this..  But your article stuck a chord with me.  On several counts.  

I am also glad you are doing okay now and looking ahead once more..  The future is the future for a reason.. It is always in front of us and always something to look forward to and to keep our eyes on.  It can be whatever we want it to be..

Sincerely, Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rolling Bear:
Frank, you're still making rigid distinctions between the "physical" and the "astral," where in fact these are only apparent, not fundamental. The "physical" and "non-physical" are all made of thought.

---

Dave, I wish you'd offer to give me £100 for every time I made the statement "thought is a primary energy". Of course it's all made from thought because (again for the zillionth time) thought is a primary energy. But that doesn't stop me making clear distinctions. For example, scientists have proven that all Physical matter is made of atoms. Now, I don't know about you, but I for one make a rigid distinction between my laser printer and the planet Jupiter.

quote:

---

There is no respite from what you call "thought-release-action" -- every thought still instantly manifests, even if you don't immediately perceive it as such.

---

You seem to be getting tangled up here. On the Astral there is no respite from the thought-release-action process. But on the Physical there is and I can prove it. I'm sitting here, at my keyboard, thinking all manner of thoughts yet my surroundings haven't changed a bit.

quote:

---

And what you refer to as "highly damaging emotions" are to be embraced and incorporated into oneself, into the bittersweet complexity of one's being; they are not to be "banished." They are part of one's character. Even if you try to discard them, they'll return to haunt you. Best to realize they are an aspect of your totality and accept them as a holon of yourself.

---

Emotions such as fear and anger are highly damaging. I would say that is obvious merely from looking at the state we are in, planet Earth-wise. The French still encompass the notion of a "crime of passion" but I maintain most people get murdered through some kind of mix of fear and anger.

I'm not sure what you mean about all this "bittersweet complexity." It's obvious that is how you view yourself (which you have every right to do) but I like to keep my inner workings to as simple and as emotion-free a degree as possible. I allow myself an element of joy at least once a day, and that's about it.

Yours,
Frank

Patty and Blossom, thank you very much for your kind and thoughtful words. Patty, I'm very glad you didn't kill yourself (!), and Blossom, I do hope you continue to look into the Brothers and Sisters of Charity. I believe they have much to offer, and Judy and I hope to stay there for a week or two during our big pledge walk from SW Florida to our daughter's grave in Colorado. For one thing, I'd love to learn some of the techniques of organic gardening and self-sufficiency they teach; my wife and I tried our hands at running an organic truck-farm once, but met with disaster. LOL! (But the lessons learned were tremendously important.) Also, John Michael Talbot is there, and is singly is divinely inspired, to say the least.

Frank, I have a few comments on your reply.

>>...Scientists have proven that all Physical matter is made of atoms. Now, I don't know about you, but I for one make a rigid distinction between my laser printer and the planet Jupiter.<<

Scientists have proven no such thing. In fact, quantuum theory implies that there are ultimately no particles (until we create them out of wave interference patterns), and that so-called "matter" is a holographic projection of our consciousness. As the Bushmen of the Kalahari say, "The dream is dreaming the dreamer." This is not proven scientific fact either, but the principle of nonlocality has been proven, and that implies that everything is one. If this is true, then such distinctions as you make between "physical," "non-physical," "time" and "space" are convenient illusions we co-create in order to make sense of things in a more linear fashion. Your laser printer and the planet Jupiter are whole/parts, intimately connected with each other and all else, both micro- and macroscopically.

quote:

---

There is no respite from what you call "thought-release-action" -- every thought still instantly manifests, even if you don't immediately perceive it as such.

---

>>You seem to be getting tangled up here. On the Astral there is no respite from the thought-release-action process. But on the Physical there is and I can prove it. I'm sitting here, at my keyboard, thinking all manner of thoughts yet my surroundings haven't changed a bit.<<

Ah, here's where your confusion is coming in. You think nothing has changed, but it actually has -- you just don't perceive it because of your conditioning not to. Or to be more precise, because of your conditioning that matter is dense and difficult to change, you truly are unable to change it...but only because you constantly reinforce your belief system that the physical is very different from the astral. Jesus and Buddha held no such illusions, and for them, matter was as malleable as any other form of thought. This was one of their most crucial lessons to us.

>>Emotions such as fear and anger are highly damaging.<<

They can be if not recognized for what they are: expressions of hurt and confusion. If we embrace these feelings, give them as much love and space as possible, and incorporate them into us, then they no longer have the power to lash out uncontrollably and wreak damage. Rather, they help us to become greater, fuller beings.

>>I'm not sure what you mean about all this "bittersweet complexity."<<

It means I don't try to repress my emotions, Frank. I accept the fact that I have many aspects, many sides to myself, and that they all contribute to the whole that is Dave.

>>It's obvious that is how you view yourself (which you have every right to do) but I like to keep my inner workings to as simple and as emotion-free a degree as possible. I allow myself an element of joy at least once a day, and that's about it.<<

This may work well for Vulcans, Frank, but I have always suspected that, actually, if there really were Vulcans, they would be schizophrenic from trying so hard to supress their emotions.

I rejoice in my emotions. Clearly, I do not follow the school of thought that believes we must present ourselves as stony-faced simulacra. In fact, were medical personnel to try and exhibit real love toward each and every patient, instead of maintaining their carefully-honed reserve, I have no doubt that many more lives would be saved, and more healings would take place. (True, there might be more instances of "burnout," but this might weed-out those individuals who have not picked the right reasons for becoming healers.) For me, this applies in whatever realm I'm visiting.

Blessings,
Dave

"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

Hello Frank,

I don't know what to say here but I am sure that will end soon as I have never suffered much from lack of gab.  You last post disturbs me quite a bit.  
I realize this is none of my business but Frank I have got to offer an opinion here based on your last sentence..  I have read so many of your posts and I respect your views but I disagree with you on this one. [I never thought I'd see the day!..]

I honestly don't think fear and anger are any more damaging than happiness and joy..   What we do with all of our emotions however can be very damaging if we make the wrong choices.. And that is where personal choice comes in to play in my humble opinion. I am going to give the first example that comes to mind and I am going to use happiness as my example or joy if you may .. [I have always been alittle backwards..]

Happiness.. How could happiness possibly be damaging to a person?  Well, happiness, like every other emotion is steered by the physical and the personal choice of each individual in what they think is perceived by each emotion and in how they live their life...  Some people preceive happiness as sitting in front of a computer staring at porn all day.. Some people preceive happiness as having a good time and setting off car bombs [think about it]... Some people preceive happiness as getting drunk on Friday. [have a good time] And then some derive genuine joy from sitting quietly and watching a sunset..  And then some are other's [like me] who enjoy the sunrise and the promise of a new beginning as each day starts.  Are all of these positive forms of happiness?..  Happiness is in the eye of the experiencer.  Right or wrong is perpective oriented and is what influences our personal growth.

My point:  Anger and fear are exactly the same as happiness and joy.  Our personal preception of these emotions are what governs us and is responsible for how these emotions affect us in our lives.  We are all accountable for how our emotions effect us.  Be it good or bad.. It is all up to us.

The majority of the human race would not see happiness as being potentially damaging, but doesn't that depend on who you ask?  The victim or the victimizer..?  

Frank, I am who I am today because of fear and pain and dispair and hurt and anger. And I AM a loving person who is genuine and who cares about people in spite of...........  

Without fear, I would not understand the true courage I had to draw on to change my situation over and over until I got it right and like I wanted it.  Why would courage even exist if there was not fear to feed it and give it strength?  Are they not the same emotions but just used in a different manner?

Without having had pain in my life, I would not be able to comprehend joy and know it fully in every capacity that I am able.  The pain of loss, the pain of abuse have increased the appreciativness of joy.  NOt understanding joy, but appreciating it.  Recognizing it and wanting it.  Pain is a driving force more powerful than nearly anything.. Fear also.. It might be even ahead of pain as a motivator..  

Think of it this way..  If you are always happy and had only always known happiness...what would motivate you to do different things and have different growth experiences?   The bittersweet makes the sweet that much better...

Without utter despair and total sadness, how would I know the difference between the light and dark portions of my soul?

If my life had been totally bland and limited in it's emotions, I would be stale and stuck and accepting of my small joy each day and saying..."This is enough".. That is very limiting in my opinion.. One recognized emotion does not make a whole person into everything they can be.  Notice the word recognized?  All the emotions are always there but to recognize only one emotion seems like fear would be involved in that decision.  Life is a chance and a gamble and full of risk.  Wonderful risks and wonderful gambles..  

The pains I have now, I accept wholeheartedly.. It makes the good that much better.  It makes the bittersweet that much sweeter when it's over..

Bittersweet?... yeah.  But worth it to be where I am at now.  I absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt understand the bittersweet qualites that formed my life.  I have had a hard life and would change nothing because that is who I am. It was all of my making and my decisions.. I am who I am.

Emotions are the flavors of all of our lives. I believe that when we limit our emotions, we limit ourselves and stop growing as individuals. Spiritually and physically and emotionally and anything else you care to mention..  

We can't change the world Frank..  We can only change ourselves.. One person at a time is the only thing that will ever make a difrerence in our world society in these troubled times.

The simplicity of my life as I have it now, came about because I see where I have been and I see the progress that I have made and I now know where I am going.. The world and the laws of the world are stuck somewhere and will probably not change in our lifetimes..  Fear and anger do not break laws or set laws...  People do because of how they let fear rule them.

I am not sure what it means when you say you allow yourself one moment of joy a day.. I sit in my living room and watch the leaves swirl outside my window and it feels me with joy.  I can watch my critters stand in front of me communicating and feel the same joy.    

I will tell you something else too Frank..  With my life like it is at present.. and you allowing yourself one moment of joy per day...it kills me inside just a little to read a statement like that.. It really does.. It makes me very sad for you.  If it was my place to tell you anything..I would say "Learn to live Frank" and experience the emotions of your life in every way.. Enjoy them all and relish them with your whole heart.  For me to learn to really live and enjoy my life..I had to get an incurable disease.. And now the sky is the most beautiful sight in the whole world and watching the clouds holds a very special moment for me every time I look up.

I wish you peace Frank...

Sincerely, Jenn



     

Sorry, Dave, I correct myself. Physical matter is an illusion. Yes, right, it kinda reminds me of the fairy tale: The Emperor With No Clothes.

So I didn't just go and buy a laser printer from PC World... I had a, "holographic projection" of my consciousness and it just became manifest. Frankly, I wish it would have. It cost me £300 worth of hard earned fungolas.

But I am a Vulcan, or so you say. But wasn't that just a TV program, Dave? You know, to me that was all entirely make-believe (but try telling that to all the Treckers). Oh, as an aside, "To boldly go where no man has gone before." Was that not the world's most famous split-infinitive?

Yes, talking of emotions, it's obvious how they have controlled your life (to date) and you talk about Jesus changing Physical matter. Alright, I'm open minded enough to understand you know and can encompass that possibility, or have developed that skill.

So please, do let me know the date you will be walking down the middle of the Thames river, Dave, and I'll be there holding my hand up and admitting everything I ever learnt was mere horseshit.

Yours,
Frank

PS
You know, your posts make me understand where that amazing Randi fellow is coming from.

Good job, Frank! That's the way...you expressed emotion. It's a start. I'm willing to take some hits from you if it can help you loosen up a bit.

About my belief that the universe is hologramlike, and that, ultimately, there's no distinction between "matter" and "spirit": Quantum physics seems to offer us several convincing reasons why this may be so. One of them is the principle of nonlocality, which has been demonstrated in the lab. It shows that one wave/particle can be everywhere at once. Think of the implications of this. Also check out Bell's Theorem. Some of the most emminent physicists believe that the hologram is a very accurate model of what consciousness is like, and in a hologram, the part contains the whole. Now, this is stil theoretical, and many physicists disagree with it; but my own experiences with astral travel, lucid dreaming, remote viewing, clairaudience, and telepathy have convinced me otherwise. Also, thousands of mystics from every religion have experienced a state of timeless unity beyond the illusion we refer to as "the physical," and these experiences correlate exactly with what some physicists, neurosurgeons, and psychologists believe about the nature of consciousness: that it is all simply waves forming the various hologramlike experiences we take to be "reality" -- both in the "physical" and in the "astral."

"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

Dave, let's forget your belief about how the universe is hologramlike. Frankly, I couldn't give a damn. What concerns me is how you talked about Jesus, and how you fully understand how he/she manipulated Physical matter. Okay, as I say, the day I see you walking down the middle of the Thames river (a la Jesus style) I'll hold my hand up and freely admit that everything I ever knew was pure horseshit.

In fact, if you can do this in front of the world's press from now within the the next 12 months I'll bet you £500,000. Like I said, listening to you makes me realise where Mr Randi is coming from. Devoid of emotion... nope... I never said I was devoid of emotion. In fact, the emotion of curiosity (with your help) and under my control stands to easily double my capital this next 12 months.

Yours,
Frank

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blossom:
Hello Frank,
I don't know what to say here but I am sure that will end soon as I have never suffered much from lack of gab.  You last post disturbs me quite a bit.  
I realize this is none of my business but Frank I have got to offer an opinion here based on your last sentence. I have read so many of your posts and I respect your views but I disagree with you on this one. [I never thought I'd see the day!..]

---

Blossom, it is an unfortunate fact that your current incarnation will soon end. It is an unfortunate fact that mine will end soon too. Okay, maybe mine may end a little before yours, or yours may end a little before mine... such matters not. What matters is: if we tend to the correct approach, we will all be There at the end of the day.

So whether this discussion concludes now or in a hundred (Earth) years... we'll still have the opportunity of coming to an amicable conclusion: Hopefully.

You talk about anger and fear being the same as happiness and joy. You further go on to say about how our personal perception of these emotions are what governs us; and is responsible for how these emotions affect us in our lives. Yes, this is true for the majority of people within this Physical plane of existence. I also agree that we are accountable (or should be accountable) for how our emotions effect us. Be it good or bad: It is all up to us. What we do with all of our emotions, however, can be very damaging if we make the wrong choices.

Okay, if you screw up then I'll try and get you. If I screw up then Ginny and friends I'm sure will not fail. Whatever way we've got to pull together.

Yours,
Frank

quote:

---

Frank:What concerns me is how you talked about Jesus, and how you fully understand how he/she manipulated Physical matter.

---

Frank, perhaps you were referring to someone else's post, because I said no such thing. Here's what I said:

"Jesus and Buddha held no such illusions [that matter was truly solid], and for them, matter was as malleable as any other form of thought. This was one of their most crucial lessons to us."

From this quote you may not deduce that I'm claiming to "fully understand how he/she manipulated matter." I am claiming to have some insight on how Jesus, Buddha, and many other spiritual figures regarded the nature of matter, which was as a kind of illusion.

Further, you may not deduce that I am purporting to be able to walk on water. However, I do believe that, if our beliefs are strong enough, any of us can do anything.

quote:

---

Frank:Okay, as I say, the day I see you walking down the middle of the Thames river (a la Jesus style) I'll hold my hand up and freely admit that everything I ever knew was pure horseshit.

---

Perhaps it would be good practice for you to start doing that now, everyday. It's something I do myself. It helps me remember that we live in an infinite multiverse in which anything can happen. It keeps me from taking things for granted. It allows an openness to flux.

Blessings,
Dave

"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

Hello Frank,

First the quote ... [and for the quote pickers...it is correct..{a little joke to light things}]  

So whether this discussion concludes now or in a hundred (Earth) years... we'll still have the opportunity of coming to an amicable conclusion: Hopefully.    I will hold you to that and will look forward to it... And of course it was be nicely done.  Is there any other way???

I agree with you in most all of your points Frank..  You have great ideas and are very insightful.  I was just concerned about that one little thing and as usual... got carried away.  

But you are absolutely right Frank.. We have got to pull together as a world and as a world people ...  

If I was out of place I am sorry.  I didn't mean to imply you were devoid of emotion.  I just take things so literal sometimes and when I read you allowed yourself one little bit of happiness each day.... well, you know the rest...

Have a wonderful day everybody!

Sincerely, Jenn [smile]

p.s.  Speaking of walking on water:  I do not believe our physical anything could walk on water...  Maybe it is so and maybe it is not.  But the problem I have with this is the buoyancy factor thrown in ..  I think astrally, all of us can walk on water or anything else... I think the physical has it's own rules.  In spite of everything being "one big atom".

I believe the bible to be full of metaphors spoken in "parables" for the people of those times and the mentality that they had... We have changed alot since those days.. have we not now?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blossom:
If I was out of place I am sorry.  I didn't mean to imply you were devoid of emotion.  I just take things so literal sometimes and when I read you allowed yourself one little bit of happiness each day.... well, you know the rest...

---

Blossom: No you are not out of place. I had the pleasure of reading what you had to say several times. There is something I'd like to stress, however, which concerns the above quote. It's not a question of allowing myself a little bit of happiness. I am a generally happy and upbeat person pretty much all of the time. What I said was I allow myself an element of Joy once a day and that's about it.

To me, the emotion of Joy is extremely powerful and highly addictive!

It's a feeling I can tune into that creates this huge surge of vibrant energy within my physical body. For about 10 minutes everything around me seems to sparkle and has a brilliant radiance about it. Any kind of difficulties I may have been having just melt away, and I get a feeling as if I'm directly plugged into the whole cosmos. The feeling gives me a sensation of pure bliss and, as I say, it is very addictive. There have been times when I over indulged, for instance, and my whole day was shot.

Yours,
Frank

Hey all,
Ive been following this thread,its an interesting one indeed.Heres my take on emotions.Im a walking example that negative emotions can be damaging.

If I let any negative thoughts or emotions get out of control even slightly.It will give me anxiety.It took me a very long time to learn how to break this cycle.

It has been one of the hardest lessons in my life.Still I struggle but I am much in control now.And it keeps me fighting that parasite within the mind.

Pain if you allow it too,will turn to anger,And eventually hate.Anger 99% of the time is a waste of energy in my eyes.There really is not much use for it.Its the old you poke my wound I poke yours.It makes the world feel  like a huge torture chamber.

We have all had traumatic experiences and if someone were to come into this world from the outside.They would see  what looks like a bunch of people with 3rd degree burns on their skin.Not literally,hope you know what I mean.

But Im sure all of it can be seen on the energy body.Maybe some discoloration.Getting  angry and letting your negative emotions control you.Those wounds no matter how old they are,will never heal.

Thats why Ive been encountering these people that look horrid in these lower realms.There energy bodys are full of emotional poison.If there was no such thing as an emotional loop?

Why are these people there?And lately ive been getting representations of people who are now living,that look alot like the people caught in those realms.And that makes me  very afraid for them.

I know these people very well and have known that they were very unhappy..They are members of my family.And I have my hands tied behind my back.Ive tried to help but they just cant see past all the pain.The best thing I can do for them is just try to be humble around them

Its alot harder for me to remain closed around them.Or anybody who is carrying alot of baggage around.As I can feel there pain when they are upset.It can feel almost like a shockwave of emotion at times..

Not only are neg emotions damaging to you they also have a great effect on those around you.Even if you think you are keeping them to yourself.They have a way of turning down other peoples vibrations.

I dont see myself as repressing my emotions.There just isnt any reason  to have them anymore,when you can see the world in this way.You will never want to get angry at someone again.

What else did I want to say,I had a laugh about the vulcan comment.We are emotional beings.We could never be like vulcans.

Love and hate may seem very different.But I feel they are the same,Only one is more diluted than the other.Which do you choose to use!

I too was startled by your comment about joy  Frank.But I think I just misunderstood it.

Dont get me wrong,I still get angry if im pushed close to edge.but as soon as it comes.Im already working to let it pass through me.That edge though just keeps getting further and further away.

On changing actual physical matter,I think it can be done.But there are too many people locked into their beliefs right now sustaining what is now.

[img]http://www.ponilla.org/Vulcan/Spock/ITiTnB_05.jpg">
Listen to Spock

                                                                                                                ALPHA











-------------------------------
"your divine awareness awakens all the love in your being.Hating and  fearing forsaken,gone are the guilt and the blame.Your soul forgives,your divinity lives"
-------------------------------

Hello Frank,

Well well ..this is very interesting since you clarified things with your explanation of your 'little bit of joy' technique...  How do you do it?  Is it a breath technique that you use..?  It sounds wonderful and I would like to know how.. The only time I personally have experienced anything similiar was about 8 months ago or so..  I was laying in bed in the dark with my head slightly lower than my feet.  I was facing the foot of the bed.. I started feeling a tingling on the soles of my feet and it traveled up my legs.  It was not like doing energy work.  I was not even attempting to meditate.  I was just laying there thinking in the dark with my eyes open.  It felt like a physical force and as it traveled upward, I felt intense intense joy spread over my entire being that made me want to burst out laughing it felt so good.  I lay there with my eyes open grinning trying not to laugh and wake my husband up .  Is that the same thing you are speaking of... that type of thing?  The reason this came to mind is because of it's intensity of feeling and the joy associated with this feeling. I have never felt that before.  I mean.. I have felt lots of energy but not where it actually was associated with an emotion like joy specifically..

Alpha, I agree with you that anger is usually a waste of energy.  I look at it like this.. "There is no reason to fight, raise your voice and be angry.. ever.. When you are right, why raise your voice and argue about it. Nobody cares anyway..People know when they are genuinly right. And if someone is wrong about something what is the point of anger in defending a stand that is wrong".   We can't make other people do this however...only ourselves.  One small change.  

Now, when I am in that situation which is very rare now, whether I am right or wrong, I just listen and watch.  I do not defend myself any longer.  In observing the other person and analyzing what they are saying instead of listening to their words and taking it personal, I look at their reactions to themselves... I can see how different I am from the other person when I do this and it is very calming and soothing to me.  I remove myself mentally from the situation and become an observer of their words.  And their words lose power over me when I do this.  I feel pity/empathy when I do this for the other person regardless and maybe because of their anger and their lack of control, becuase I can see how lost they really are.  Therefore by using this philosophy concerning anger and fighting, it does not affect me in a negative way..  

I do believe anger [when uncontrolled] could effect an energy body if the emotion is not kept in check... That's why we need to learn control.. Of our thoughts and of my minds..  

I don't have alot of problems with people and their negative emotions in my life because I am the ultimate loner in the true sense of the word.  I remain isolated at all times and that never changes and won't ever change because I don't want it to. As a rule, I don't talk to people or see people unless I go to the grocery store and that is once a week. I stay home, my children are grown, and my time now is spent in self absorbtion of improvement.  Physical, mental and spiritual.  I want to progress and my life right now is perfectly arranged to do that. That is my only goal in life.  To be better than I am now..  

I don't repress my emotions either.  I accept them and deal with them as they come.  Every one of them. Vulcan life would be very easy I think... But being isolated like I am, there are not really too many things that bother me.  I live in a world of my own creation and if I decide I don't like it, I will change it.  

I think we all need to be in charge and control of our own lives, but use care not to infringe ourselves on others.  We are all unique and special..    

Take care everyone!  
Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blossom:
Hello Frank,

Well well ..this is very interesting since you clarified things with your explanation of your 'little bit of joy' technique...  How do you do it?  Is it a breath technique that you use..?  It sounds wonderful and I would like to know how.. The only time I personally have experienced anything similiar was about 8 months ago or so..  I was laying in bed in the dark with my head slightly lower than my feet.  I was facing the foot of the bed.. I started feeling a tingling on the soles of my feet and it traveled up my legs.  It was not like doing energy work.  I was not even attempting to meditate.  I was just laying there thinking in the dark with my eyes open.  It felt like a physical force and as it traveled upward, I felt intense intense joy spread over my entire being that made me want to burst out laughing it felt so good.  

---

Yes, there is an emotion of joy that is felt as a specific connection. It's an overwhelming feeling that is difficult for me to explain. It's related to the "spark of hope" feeling I talked about on another thread when I come across children in the F23 region.

Yours,
Frank

Alpha, you are making great progress.

The realisations you are expressing are very advanced in the general scheme of things. The key thing is to retain that control. As you say it's not easy. The big problem we have to face is how can we make people realise? What is it that we can just click our fingers and do: that will givepeople the same (or even better a greater) level of understanding? Keep working on that, my friend. There's more than you behind you hoping.

Yours,
Frank

Alpha,

What you said can be summed up as "hate hurts the hater".  Hate does nothing but make you mull over how you've been hurt, feel sorry for yourself, etc.  It serves no useful purpose in modern society.  Our animalistic "fight vs. flight" instinct clicks on and we have nothing to release it with.  Aggression, while important early on when we were faced with danger, has no release today except in meaningless agression which solves NOTHING.  What does acting the fool towards someone that has slighted you solve? I've seen many "adults" claim that what they did to this person was because "he/she started it".  You have a choice to end it by not responding and ignoring.

But sometimes, I think it IS necessary to stand up for yourself.  Taking thoughtless jabs at someone as retribution is not "standing up for yourself".  I have found that asking them "why do you feel this way?" and insisting that they answer works well.  Admittedly, it is very awkward at first because usually the perpetrator doesn't even remember why they disliked you in the first place, but it works.  It might be a little odd, but keeping a cool head seems to work wonders!

When someone royally pisses you off, and you react by being ticked off - you have done nothing but fall right into their trap.  Misery loves company after all.

Anyway, that's enough of my "wisdom".  What do I know?  After all, I only have my experience to back things up with and nobody else.  We're all in the same boat, trying to figure out what the hell it's all about.....

And the first one to figure it all out wins a billion dollars!

Frank,

Would it be possible for me to speak with you offline about OBE?  I have had much success with my other psychic (paranormal) abilities, but I am frusterated with OBE.  It's the one thing that really hasn't come "naturally", either due to my naturally skeptic mind or my natural disposition towards NOT being able to OBE.

Instead of cluttering this board with my ramblings about OBE and my difficulty with it, would it be possible for you to at least answer a few questions offline about this?

If so, I'll send you my email address.

Blessings,
Heimdall

Hee this topic got interesting after all.

For myself I can only say that I'm very asctic as to what feelings I have for people and situations around me. Mostly I don't feel one way or another about many people.  But the ones I call friends I'll die for, the ones I love I'll live for. Situations as such are not really emotions.

For me , when someone stomps on me or when I have a conflict with someone it's not really emotions towards the person as much as it's emotion towards the situation. I can intensely dislike something that happens but once it's resolved the relationship with the person(s) is based on the individual people.
This has caused me trouble that doesn't seem to have an end. Many if not most people confuse conflict between issues with conflict between people. And many if not most people can't relate to my responses when they are not directed toward them as individuals but toward the conflict they and I create.
There is a difference foor me when I feel something for a person and when I feel something for a thing. As a result I don't ever love things but I do love people, few people but some.
Feeling anf emotion are different things.

I'm not sure how this relates to the topic. Maybe it doesn't as such. Emotion is one thing growth is another, at least for me. Growth can induce emotion but for the most part emotion usually hinders growth, at least uncontrolled emotion.
All things come to an end in this incarnation. Some because of old age, others because of sickness or injury. The thing I can't see is why choosing to end this incarnation is such a taboo. I guess it's because the majority doesn't see our current life as one of many.
Reincarnation doesn't in my opinion diminish the value of any single lifetime. But it does provide the ultimate consolation when life really gets though. It means that we can at any time choose to end it. Not that we should, but just that there is always, no matter how deep the s**t get, a choice and an exit. We can face whatever is thrown at us knowing that there is the possibility of retreat.

2cents & L&L

jouni

A few things that I want to say.Blossom me and you are very much the same.I guess we all are,but I can really understand  the hermit thing.Because I am quite the herm myself.

Frank,thank you,Im reading you loud and clear over here.I feel like I know what those things are that I can do.They have always been there.Yes they are simple,But they involve me mushing through my biggest fears.Strangely they are all of the physical.No worrys,No hurrys.It feels as if the worst is already over.

Heimdall,
Personal experience is the best teacher,thank you for your insights!

jilola says:
"Not that we should, but just that there is always, no matter how deep the s**t get, a choice and an exit. We can face whatever is thrown at us knowing that there is the possibility of retreat.
2cents & L&L"

yes thats true but why kill yourself?If your ever being exposed to a hostile environment constantly.And it is turning you into an atom bomb.You can always pack your chit up and  run for the hills.I did and alot of good has come out of it.Sure I had to give up many things.But really they were nothing,peace of mind is priceless.

                                                                                              Love all,ALPHA

-------------------------------
"your divine awareness awakens all the love in your being.Hating and  fearing forsaken,gone are the guilt and the blame.Your soul forgives,your divinity lives"
-------------------------------

Alpha: But my point is not that one should ever kill oneself. It's that no matter what there is always something else, my back is never against the wall so to speak.
I've always been of the opinion that when there seems to be nothing to loose then every option is available to us and that in that situation whatever we do in this life it's always worthwhile.
The option of leaving a life gives a choice, and in choice there's possibility, in possibility everything. To have a choice is to have hope and hope is what gives strength to face whatever the world may throw at us.

2cents & L&L

jouni

misunderstood ya,maybe cause I was reading too  fast

quote:

---

Originally posted by jilola:
Alpha:
I've always been of the opinion that when there seems to be nothing to loose then every option is available to us and that in that situation whatever we do in this life it's always worthwhile.


2cents & L&L

jouni

---

Yes I would think so,even if you have gone through that same  experience before in another life and learned from it.You probably would  have a very diff. perspective and thus get things out of it,that you would not have seen before.




-------------------------------
"your divine awareness awakens all the love in your being.Hating and  fearing forsaken,gone are the guilt and the blame.Your soul forgives,your divinity lives"
-------------------------------

Blossom, the emotional surge that Frank mentioned as a "little bit of joy" is known in various magical traditions as "Agape". Read Paulo Coelho's book "the pilgrim" for a little more detail.

I wish I had been here to get to know Frank... I just dug this out and thought it an interesting thread.  

Many different things going on there, the "Little bit of joy" compared to the "Lot of joy" Frank talks about which can be very distracting when you need to get things done... and of course the topic of Suicide itself.  

Jouni, I think you and James are the only people still here who were originally part of this thread and I would like to see if it can be picked back up.

My understanding of suicide is that if a life is cut short, the next lifetime will be a large degree harder because of the unfinished business that the soul was supposed to do in the previous lifetime.  If this is so... (who knows, really) why would anyone end it.  Sure, we have options but if it is bad enough to end it, why would anyone want it to get worse?

Kerri

Ahhhhhh a oldy but goody..[:D]

I wasn't around for the original posting, but I'm here now.  So my take on the original point of this thread..*sigh*

Suicide....Over the years of reading and from my own experiences, it has changed.  At first I thought if one killed off his physical, then you would just keep looping back and forth..with no guides to help you, thus making it harder to learn the lesson that you started out to learn in the first place.  

Then sucide found its way into my life experience, changing my view on things, so I thought if you do commit suicide you don't get punished in the sense that you're going to keep reincarnating into the same situation with no help, but you work through things on the "otherside".  It takes longer I think, cause sheesh, lets face it..things on the otherside are much more relaxed and not so much conflict to learn from.

Now I think, after reading the thread that Lighthouse brought to light..hehe..play on words there.[:P] pretty much the same thing, about learning our lessons on the otherside and then some in our next incarnation.  

But then I got to thinking..yeah, I know scary..[^] What about Robert finding other parts of himself that were lost..were any of those parts lost due to commiting suicide??  I mean they were still there, they just hadn't merged with 'the one' yet.  I'm having a brain freeze..lol.

Don't cha just hate it when you mind has about a million things running through it and you can't grasp one good thing to go from there?..[:D][:P] Story of my life..[:(]

Nay

Why are so many people talking about lessons and other unpleasant things? I see nothing wrong with taking a long break from them and having some fun.

But no-one has claimed there's something wrong in taking a break and having fun. If fact I think it's essential, both in the physical sense and in the spiritual sense.


I just reread the thread and will post something once I get my thoughts straightened out. I've changed my position a bit from what I posted at the start of the thread.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Well put Runlola [:D]

2cents & L&L
Jouni

quote:

---

Originally posted by runlola

I have had suicidal tendencies. I believe that whatever thought or emotion you have sets up a vibration that effect many other people. When you are in a place of despair & hopelessness you start to connect with others on that level, where you go from there can effect those people as well, wherever they may be, because we are all one. If you keep going into the downward spiral, you are bound to take others with you. But if you pull yourself out of and try to find a solution, because you are ultimately responsible for your reality, you may also pull others out of the despair as well. You may not know whom you are helping but you owe it to yourself & all of mankind to try a little harder.

---

Hi Runlola,

Can I applaud you on been so brave to share your feelings on this sensitive subject, and close on such a sweet and positive note! I have been hovering over this thread pondering if it was worth putting in a pennies worth or a thousand words as it is a subject close to home for many reasons (long, long set of stories)[B)][B)][B)]

Yet you have been able to succinctly sum up my feelings exactly – well done [^]

Cheers,

Stephen [:)][:)][:)]

quote:

---

yes thats true but why kill yourself?If your ever being exposed to a hostile environment constantly.And it is turning you into an atom bomb.You can always pack your chit up and run for the hills.I did and alot of good has come out of it.

---

It's been my experience that most talks about suicide usually have a quote like this somewhere in them. "Buck up junior, it's not as bad as you think it is; it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem, yadda yadda - take control of your life."  The problem with this train of thought is that it's entirely detrimental to the person who's suicidal.  It's almost condescending in nature.  I was severely depressed for maybe eight months or so, and it just lifted maybe two months ago.  During that period, I was extremely suidical at times.  There's no measure of emotional control that you can induce in yourself.  It's cold, it's dark, and there is no hope.  Do you know what it's like to not remember the feeling of happiness?  It's not that you haven't been happy in so long that you forget the taste and smell of it - you genuinely can't remember a single time in your life that you were happy.  Can you even imagine something like that?  It's as if the entire positive spectrum of human emotion has been wiped from your soul.  No hope, no joy, no happiness; all that's left is pain, torture, and defeat.  Now picture people telling you a handful of trite comments about how it's not as bad as you think, you can do something to make your life better, whatever.  Your brain is already working at full capacity to convice you of your worst fear, so someone telling you to "buck up" just makes you feel worse.  Half a year or more of this type of mental assault, and you'll be sitting in your bed, staring at a bottle of sleeping pills and wondering if the plastic bag will cut off oxygen to your brain in time for it to be a painless death.  

You know how in horror movies they never show the monster until the end of the movie?  That's because your mind can conjure up something infinitely more frightening than they could put on the screen.  Now imagine your brain working overdrive conjuring up ideas that you can't disbelieve - namely that there is no hope or reason to live.  If that's the type of lesson I've been sent down here to learn about, I want my astral money back, because I'm pretty sure I didn't sign up for this class.

Now after I've said all that, the experience was incredibly helpful and enlightening; and I sure as hell don't believe that we should try to banish these emotions from our consciousness.  In fact, the very act of trying to banish negative thoughts could be causing these suicidal outbursts in the first place. During my tenure in hell, I made my peace with the world and accepted all parts of myself, and in doing so, I tapped into something exciting and primal.  Realizing the ephemerality of existence, some days it feels like my consciousness has tapped into the lifeblood of the universe.  Without my experience, and the negative emotions that caused it, I'd still be walking around with blinders on.  What I took from the experience changed my life, but I'd like my future lessons to not involve me being a hair's width away from offing myself, as it could've just as easily gone the other way.

Randomacity,

Thank you for sharing.  Although I have not felt suicidal (I feel like the struggles and hurdles would bee far more intense in my next incarnation if I viewed this as an option) I have felt somewhat depressed... seemingly in the same timeline as you.

For the past 18 months or so, I have experienced a very low point in my life... questioning who I am, why I have such strong feelings for a certain friend who I was in a romantic relationship with proior to meeting my husband and who has reappeared in my life after 7 years and after I've gotten married to another...  For a long time, whenever I would think about this person, email him, talk to him on the phone, I would send myself into such a deep sorrow, almost mourning.  I was experiencing such self condemnation for having these powerfully strong feelings yet believing I was trapped because of the commitment that I made to my husband shortly after leaving him.  (I left him because I wanted kids and he had a vasectomy... that's all.. no arguments, no discontent) I believe this past year in particular has been the lowest point in my life... and the clouds have just started lifting within the past 3 months or so, mainly because I have stopped talking to him.  I did this because it was causing me too much internal sorrow to keep up the communication... it was too difficult to function properly and I felt trapped.    

That said, I believe you are right when you say:
The problem with this train of thought is that it's entirely detrimental to the person who's suicidal. It's almost condescending in nature.


My husband and freinds would try to tell me to not think about it, yet it is telling the person that their feelings are invalid.  Sure, we are all responsible for our own feelings, but we are still entitled to feel any way we want.  Perhaps if I had some understanding from those who were clost to me who were telling me to snap out of it, I would have come out of it much sooner.  I don't, however feel that I'm completely in the clear because I'm sure if my friend were to call, it would start the cycle all over again.

I think that depression is is our unwillingness to address the inner yearnings of our hearts.  We hold the values of society at a higher standard than our own longings and yearnings, therefore feeling that just because everyone else thinks something should be a certain way, we must conform to that societal outlook... thereby causing ourselves a tremendous amount of guilt for not feeling what we think we should feel... At the same time denying our own inner selves by remaining in a state of stagnation...

more later.
Kerri

Hello, friends...

Wow! Such a seemingly narrow topic has become manifold as the old guns go at it...

Let me take the time out of this serious, multifaceted omni-covering thread which seems to now encompass the entire lot of human struggles to add my two bits... As I see this whole hub-bub, I shall for you now elaborate.

The world which we inhabit, as most here would agree with me upon, is the product of a grand consciousness which made its deep love manifest into the emptiness that was the void, the cradle of being. The universe, at large, is composed of nothing more than energy, and this energy, as some would agree, is almost exclusively positive in nature, allowing one to surmise that this universe is for the most part a grand melting pot of love and ecstacy, a pool of collective joy from which beautiful things are eternally emerging; but this world is always expanding, the light of joyous connectedness is always asuaging the ills of darkness, uplifting the downtrodden. Though the universe is an orb of joy, it is also the home of dark realms, places where, although the light of the creator is ever-present, the pain and suffering inherent to the realms themselves prevent those dwelling within to grasp their connection to all that is.    

Our own world lies somewhere in this scheme of light and dark, which are, in truth, two faces of the same coin.

There are places here of insurmountible perfection of being, such as the Falling Lakes of Croatia, or the mountains of southern China, where it is difficult not to feel at one with the creator, but, to deny that there are places of quite a different nature as well, would be a naive error.

Our world is like a grand Las vegas. There is the beauty of the mountains which illuminates the darkness, and then there is what lies beyond, and all around. Our cities and our towns are wells of consumerism and desire, which shape the world around them in ways unthinkable. Our surroundings are moulded by the ways in which we think, and how we treat the living landscape. We have beautiful avenues of sparkling skyscrapers, but the nature of our cities is better reveiled through what lies beneath and within. Places like New York, Moscow, and Hong Kong are labyrinths of serpentine power grids, which serve as conduits to feed the greed of all who live there, and are primordeal nests of hostile and destructive technology employed not for progress, but for avarice, and that is only the beginning. There are vast sewer systems which transport the filth of the masses, chemical emmissions which pollute the air ( In L.A., to breathe the downtown air is equivalent to smoking a pack a day ), lairs of debauchery where narcotics, prostitution, extortion, laundering, and the murder of innocents to protect one's own vile designs is the rule and not the excpetion ( no, this is not Hollywood, such places are all too real )-all of this defilement is the result of our mindset. It was said previously in this thread that one's thoughts shaped the world around them, and this could not be more true. Our world is at times a hell of our own creation, and we have no one else to thank for its wretchedness other than our very own selves. No action goes unnoticed in this universe, and the world around us, as I have tried to stress, is a reflection of that which inhabits it. Like attracts like. The darkness we see is our own pain made manifest for us.

This world is a dark nest of fiends at times, this much is true, but it is the brightest light which shines at night. It is our place to walk in darkness, and to give hope to all who suffer alongside us. To live through great pain, and to witness vile enormity without losing faith in the light is the mark of virtue uncommon. I believe it is the story of an old Testament angle, probably Uriel, who walks the shadows of hell, giving solace to the suffering, always praising the light that is God, though all around is nothing but pain. It is an aquired skill to do this, you see, and not all can know the glow of hope which shines where none can see, for it is always out of sight. Not all can realize the light, though it ever be encompassed in shadow, waiting to be discovered.

There are countless millions who inhabit such worlds of shadow, plains where no ray glances, but the weak are tormented needlessly day by day, those who know not God, but all too well have come to know pain. There are innocents who live day by day, hoping and pining for some gleam of light to comfort them, to tell them that the blackness they inhabit is but a prison of paper bars, but this light never comes. They are only met with bleak despair, and they happen upon spectres among men, those who would only do them wrong. The house of cards which they have up to this point huddled in collapses, and their whole world falls apart. The pain which they are immersed in inundates them, and they see no more reason for living in a world of fleeting hopes, where grace is to be found, only to be a mere phantasm of false illusions. You can easily see why one might choose to take their own life, how an innocent soul can be rankled and broken to the point of final catharsis.

It is of little worth to tell these people that "it will get better", as they feel they have no pretext for thinking such thoughts, and such words have little empathetic value. The only thing which we can do for those who are the subjects of the world's broadsides is to be there for them, for the love which we show the suffering is akin to the love of God, and that is the greatest thing which we could ever give them. Compassion is an emotion infinitely more peerlessly beautiful than bliss. To learn to love others, and the poor world in which we live, is the thing at the heart of all of these strivings, the thing which brings us closest to God.

The suicidal are merely those whom the world has abused to the point of breaking, and ever so much more than forgive them their subtle error, we should stand by them, and lend them our own strengths.

Bless you all,
Stillwater  

So far this thread has focused on suicide as an escape from a depressed and seemingly hopeless state.
What about a suicide from a conscious and voluntary stae of being?
Suppose one were to have the knowledge on par with enlightenement that all has been accomplished in one's life and that there was the free option of either continuing one's life or endig it and moving on?

No depression, not avoiding any problems, no espcaping things. Just shedding the physical and going home.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Jouni,

Isn't putting it in your own hands telling yourself you have no faith in your own LIFE contract?  If you are (you being anyone) an enlightened being and feel it is just up to you to end it, isn't that saying you feel your work is done and there is no more room for growth?

Kerri

No more work in these particular circumstances.
Remember that this is not all there is and that we have chosen these particula circumstances to achieve some experiences and to learn something about individualty.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

I suppose it could be another choice to experience yourself differently.

k

It would be the choice between remaining in this lifetime to help others move along their paths and yourself moving on to the next set of circumstances. So yes, in a manner of speaking it would be a choice of experiencing yourself differently.

But one must remember that death itself is only the cessation of a physical existence, not the existence of yourself. ( and I use 'self to denote the individual instance of the single existence, god , whatever)

2cents & L&L
Jouni

quote:

---

Originally posted by runlola

What if ending your life ends your soul's existence completely? You as you know yourself now will no longer exist. What if in order to keep your soul you have to see it through & killing yourself breaks that contract, therefore killing your soul completely....

---

Hi Runlola,

Personally I don't believe this to be the case although great question to pose and one that so many of us face when moving from perhaps agnostic to evidential understanding of a small part of the greater scheme of things.

From experience of having has a close call myself through misadventure in my early twenties (experienced as a NDE), and having had a fair bit of exposure with spirit communication ever since in some form or another - I am absolutely comfortable with the continuation of existence after death. This has included contact with people who I knew in life before they passed on by their own hands (however sad). What I have noticed is in the contacts I have had, and via readings with other mediums is that these individuals are very much given opportunity to clear the air by way of seeking healing/forgiveness both for themselves and when ever possible via the process of evidential communication to loved ones etc.

quote:

---

Or what if you have to start again in a more hellish situation until you finally do see it through?

---

In addition they do not by necessity appear to have to go through some kind of hellish torment in the after life unless that is what they choose to experience, and as soon as they feel prepared to receive help then it is offered as a matter of course.

There are reams of books and articles on these types of issues and although not buying in the complete view posed in this example it was and still is considered as classic account of after life experience – Life in the World Unseen, A detailed description of the afterlife given to the medium Anthony Borgia from Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson.

Cheers,


Stephen

What I meant to point out that one doesn't have to be suicidal in the usual sense. The usual definition  of being sujicidal is that one is trying to escape an unbearable depressed state or a apparent dead end situation. Conditions seemingly beyond one's ability to cope.

I meant to juxtapose that with the voluntary choice in a case where everything is hunky dory. One is not in any horrible situation, not suffering any personal or societal torments, not depressed, not running, not out of options or in a dead end.
Just the realization that one doesn't have to hang on any longer. Nothig noble behind it, not doing it for anyone else or to advance any cause or point of view. Just leaving the office early.

quote:

---

What if ending your life ends your soul's existence completely?

---

Well with the experience of oneness one comes to directly see that all are one and that one is eternal. You are not apart from it.
The realization that all has been done can only come after that and thus you already know the end of a body is not the end of the soul. It's only the end of one projection of it, if you will. You'll be burning a photograph and not the scenery.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Loooool!!Just now i have seen your quote runlola! It´s impossible to commit suicide after seeing the "runlolarun"!

Well, anyway, suicide it is not bad as that if someone is tired of life:
-Until now i dont see any proof (concrete and solid, irrefutable proof)of life after death. So, if you suicide you will end with all the suffering in your life (i am supposing that there is not life after death). After death there will be only the "nothing" that contains "nothing for suffering". So, this is a good option.

-There is life after death: well, you are tired of life, why not going to heaven? Really! Why not doing it? The stupid life ends and you can have a nice holidays in the Eden. And the idea that the problem is not resolved it´s a lie: let´s suppose that you kill yourself because your wife is making love with other guys (stupid suicide as obvious: i would rahter kill her than myself[:)]...kiding! I would kill both of them [:D]). Well, if heaven is heaven you could demand to the angel comuntiy that you want a girl much better than the $&$$# that you had in the Earth!

Or you can rest in paradise that your problems (mental ones) will disapear with time. The argument that the problem will not disapear it´s a lie! What about someone who suicides because is, let´s say , tetraplegic (dont ask me how can he kill him self). That´s something horrible but in the heaven you will no more have that problem. In no time, with our new body, completly free, you will forget that problem!

yes, suicide it is just another option, like: "Should i buy the Ferrari or the Porshe?" but instead you say: "Kill or not to kill?". You just need t choose the color of the coffin before you "go"![:)]

Valid points Kazbadan but again you assume that the choice needs somethign negative to be valid. Something that one is tired of (life), afflicted by (quaruplegia), angry at (girlfriend cheating) etc. In each case the essential cause for the choice is running away and avoidance.

Can I detect the conditioning of death always being bad and that for some reason the mosrt significant choice of one's life, its end, is not your's to decide and that everyone should insist on changing your mind?.

It seems to me that our society has made death and dying such a taboo that it can inno circumstances be a choice and a good thing. Where does this come from? And "Thou shalt no kill" is not a valid reply since it doesn't get obeyed in simpler circumstances.

2cents & L&L
jouni

quote:

---

...inorder to hurry into a future existence where things are bound to be easier because you do not have a body to care for and you do not have the worries of making a living...

---

There's the difference between my position and the one asked in the channeling. The question presumes one is hurrying away from physical life in order to have an easier one in the afterlife. In other words escaping a difficult situation.
My position is based on the direct knowledge that one's current lifetime has reached its peak and all the spiritual lessons have been accomplished. There is no presumption of having it easier or harder or of any joys, whatever they may be).
The channeled reply is valid in the case where a person intellectualy reasons that he/she should move to the big league and in that I agree with the response.
But a time comes for each child when they indeed become adults ad that's when the reply is no longer valid. And should this time come during a lifetime the child basicaly has two options, become a babysitter or go on to independent life.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Quote...It is like saying they do not belong here and that just sounds negative. .../quote]

Recall tat I said inmy origiinal post about this that one had direct experiential knowledge that there is no neeed for the person to remain. In other words it's been made clear (perhaps by the higher self, the Powers That Be) that babysitting is an option and going on to be something else is just as valid a choice.

Also you mentioned "..an evolved being that seems to be stuck here..." which I take to indicate that the person doesn't have the direct experience of all having been done and instead still has work to be done in the lifetime. Or perhaps has the knowledge but also sees that he/she is needed to help others in which case the choice focuses on that individual's choice of how to proceed;should he/she stay and help on the physical or move on that help on the non-physical levels.

Why would someone want to leave? Perhaps given the knowledge of all having been accomplished in his/her lifetime one chooses to experience one perfect day and go peacefully instead of diluting it with a hundred average days?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

quote:

---

Also, if the evolved being questions the decision at all or has doubts about it, I would say there is resistance for a reason.

---

Indeed. If one were to have doubts it would indicate that perhaps the choice isn't a real one.

quote:

---

ou are here for only a short time when you look at the big picture--the astral is infinite—there is so much here that isn't there. Why not enjoy it?

---

The big picture is that there is no difference between the astral and physical life. They are the same excistence perceived from a different vantage point and thus rendered into different representations of reality.  

quote:

---

I know what you are going to say but what if a Neg did attach itself to someone evolved in order to get rid of them? Not seeing the beauty of life here & enjoying the physical world, the creation, could be a negative belief

---

But you miss my point entirely. I've never said that person making the decision wouldn't see th beauty of life and the physical world. I've only said that the person knows that his/her work has been accomplished.
As for negs are you suggesting that a neg (for the sake of argument I'll assume there is such a thing) would be able to assert its will by using love, compassion and the serenity of knowing one is complete and in direct communion with all that exists? After every post on the boards claiming that negs can only use fear, depression, anger amd hate?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

I think I figured out where we miscommunicate.
You're thinking on suicide in the normal sense, ie. using physical means to end a lifetime. I'm referring to the simple desicision to just stop living. Much in the manner of saying "So long and thank you for all the fish" and then checking out. No nooses, bullets or icky substances involved.

quote:

---

...it can just be a deep-rooted belief that needs clearing..

---

By belief I assume you mean delusion. That could well be the case and naturally one would have to carefully examine the cause of such a realization to ascertain that it's valid.

quote:

---

...How can someone know they are complete? ...

---

This is a question that cannot be answered for everyone in the same manner and words. But it's the same kind of realization that a person gets when he/she reaches an enlightened state and perceives the underlying unity of all of existence.

quote:

---

...Why do they think they would be better able to serve in the astral?...

---

Why would they think they would better serve on the physical? The question assumes physical is inherently better suited for all development when in fact it's a perspective well suited for some development while the non-physical is the perpective of choice for other inds of development.

quote:

---

...Are there no spiritual consequences to murder?...

---

Imho, no other consequences save for those one believes there should be.

quote:

---

insane rapture & needs to come down out of the clouds

---

Indeed. Like I said above one should be careful in determining the validity of the realization.
But my original premise was that one is in control and completely aware of the realization so that essentially it has been deemed valid.

A tricky matter, if any.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Fantastic thread!

Frank, jiola, and others, thank you for sharing your insights and experiences. I have to say i agree in a large part with most of what each of you are saying. Everyone seems to have a distinct and clear cut opinion of suicide and lessons learned. I cannot say myself what the true implications of suicide mean. What i've most understood is that when a person kills oneself, they are robbing themselves of lessons to be learned. Furthermore, a spiritually weak or confused person will most likely CONTINUE to be spiritually weak and confused...and dead. I used to have this theory: why not kill youself? Your angels appear, God gives you a hug, says "Sorry for the rough trip. what do you want to do now?" and then you move on with existense.
  At this point in my learning, i believe that scenario would only unfold if the suicide victim truly believed it would unfold like that. And if someone was that clear about the afterlife, it is highly unlikely that they could suicide anyway.

Regardless, everyone reflections and perceptions are wonderful, often clarifying and usually enlightening. We are all here to learn, and pieces to the Cosmic Puzzle keep falling into place. I love it.

SOME POETRY AND POP MUSIC ON RESISTING DEATH AND SUICIDE

DYLAN THOMAS:

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.





Queen - Don't Try Suicide

A one, two, three, four, one... Yeah... OK

Don't do it, don't you try it baby
Don't do that, don't, don't, don't
Don't do that, You got a good thing going now
Don't do it, don't do it... Don't

Don't try suicide, nobody's worth it
Don't try suicide, Nobody cares
Don't try suicide, you're just gonna hate it
Don't try suicide, nobody gives a damn

So you think it's the easy way out?
Think you're gonna slash your wrists... this time
Baby when you do it all you do is get on my tits
Don't do that, try, try, try, baby
Don't do that, you got a good thing going now
Don't do it don't do it... Don't

Don't try suicide, nobody's worth it
Don't try suicide, nobody cares
Don't try suicide, you're just gonna hate it
Don't try suicide, nobody gives a damn

You need help, look at yourself you need help
You need life, So don't hang yourself
It's ok, ok, ok, ok
You just can't be a prick teaser all of the time
A little bit attention, you got it
Need some affection, you got it
Suicide, suicide, suicide, bid
Suicide, suicide, suicide, bid... Suicide

Don't do it don't do it don't do it babe (yeah)
Don't do it don't do it don't, do it... Yeah
Don't put your neck on the line
Don't drown on me babe, blow your brains out
Don't do that (yeah)
Don't do that, you got a good thing going baby
Don't do it (no) don't do it (no) don't

Don't try suicide, Nobody's worth it
Don't try suicide, Nobody cares
Don't try suicide, You're just gonna hate it
Don't try suicide
Nobody gives, nobody cares, Nobody gives a damn



I like Dylan Thomas better personally although it is not about suicide. Obviously even old people do not want to give up life quietly. My father is 80 and has this attitude. The Queen song is clear, who cares if you do kill yourself? It is not going to help at all or get any sympathy which is what most of us are looking for to get us out of our depressions, a life saver being thrown to us. My depressions were never that deep but only through a disciplined spiritual life have I obtained real joy and purpose in life. The struggle to obtain greater spiritual heights  is what makes the whole thing worthwhile, learning to really love yourself and others.

Narfellus:

quote:

---

suicide victim

---

How can there b a victim is the alleged victim and the prerequisite perpetrator are the same person?

GalaticSurfer:
Yep, running away from problems via suicide is not a good idea although in some cases I can see why someone would choose that. The problems won't go away, only the circumstances change.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

well, i suppose a suicide is sort of like a part of you killing yourself. Maybe look at it as your Fear being the attacker. Anyway, i meant it as a figure of speech. :)

Narfellus:

quote:

---

Maybe look at it as your Fear being the attacker

---

Yes,perhaps. If one chooses to exit a lifetime because of desperation, depression, a wish to avoid difficulty etc that could be the case.

2cents  & L&L
Jouni

So what about the father who runs into a burning house to save his children knowing that he will not survive himself?
The bystander who runs on front of a truck to push another away and get hit?
The man who takes a bullet for another in a war?

These are both examples of what is essentially a suicide. Yet in both cases it's considered not only laudable but in many cases is even expected.

I think in the discussions about suicide and death the end of life part gets blown out of proportion and the circumstances completely overlooked in favour of the society's ideology and "accepted" thinking in the matter.

Saying that suicide is the cowards way out and that it's wrong in all circumstances is oversimplification. Our conditioned abhorrence of death clouds the mind.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

quote:

---

Rather, only the individual involved can make such an important decision, and whatever decision he or she does make, it should be respected.

---

I agree with that with the reservation that the choice be made in a clear state of mind and not as a knee-jerk reaction to adversity.

The pro-choice argument is used in many other areas that involved a personal choice but in my experience without requiring that the idividual in question is fully capable of making such choices. If the person is making a conscious and calm decision, what ever that may be, about his/her person then it's for nobody else to reject the decision.

If the choices are harmful to others others should intervene but barring that who's to decide for me what a person can and cannot do with him/herself?

2cents & L&L
jouni

quote:

---

Originally posted by jilola

So what about the father who runs into a burning house to save his children knowing that he will not survive himself?
The bystander who runs on front of a truck to push another away and get hit?
The man who takes a bullet for another in a war?

These are both examples of what is essentially a suicide. Yet in both cases it's considered not only laudable but in many cases is even expected.

---

IMO the above is not suicide but a showcase of unconditial love..

Where, exactly, is the difference then?
The end result is the same only the reasons are different.


2cents & L&L
Jouni

I for one am of the pro-choice side that runlola describes, however, with one stipulation. Anyone in a position of high responsibility (a parent, spouse, military officer) should not be allowed to kill themselves, however rational and calm their mind may be. These types of positions are life-binding commitments, so your decision to accept life or reject it should be made before entering them.

So, deciding whether or not to have a child or a spouse should be given the same weight as the decisioin of suicide. [|)]

Phong:

quote:

---

(a parent, spouse, military office

---

I agree but your examples have only one case where harm is imminent to another and that is the parent.
An adult spouse is not harmed or put in danger. Neither are the subordinates or superiors of an officer unless he suicides while in a situation that will endanger his subordinates.

If you view a spousal relationship as a "life binding" commitment then you have created a situation where those in the realtionship are directly putting each other in the harms way by refusing them the possibility of ending the relationship if it becomes disruptive ot either party. It ends being a relationship of love and becomes the prison of duty.

Being a military officer is an occupation.

The only case against a voluntary suicide is that one has dependents who would not be able to support and take care of themselves.

quote:

---

So, deciding whether or not to have a child or a spouse should be given the same weight as the decisioin of suicide

---

I couldn't agree with you more. Conscious decisions and honesty. There's the ticket.

3cents & L&L
jouni

quote:

---

Being a military officer is an occupation.

The only case against a voluntary suicide is that one has dependents who would not be able to support and take care of themselves.

---

Very true, however, as was pointed out by a later statement in response to a previous quote,

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, deciding whether or not to have a child or a spouse should be given the same weight as the decisioin of suicide
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I couldn't agree with you more. Conscious decisions and honesty. There's the ticket.

---

some choices should be made with the understanding that they carry with them a burden of responsibility that is not so lightly discarded. It is not that it is not the right of the individual to choose, but rather that they made a previous decsion which brought others under their care or supervision, and to default upon such duties is a tragedy indeed.

Thank you,
Stillwater

quote:

---

It is not that it is not the right of the individual to choose, but rather that they made a previous decsion which brought others under their care or supervision, and to default upon such duties is a tragedy indeed.

---

So after having started a relationship my choices as an individual stop existing? And that no matter what a decision, once made, should always hold? That presumes that having made a wrong choice the life that follows is a just punishment for making the mistake.

I can agree in the case where someone incapable of surviving on their own is in my care but in the case of adults the idea that my choices are defined by others is odd to say the least.

The only choice that should always be made from the point of view of another is having children be it by natural birth or adoption.
Anyother choice is first and foremost to be made in succh a way that the decision maker is tru to his/her self. Otherwise the decisions become a prison and lead to entirely unnecessary bitterness.

2cents & L&L
jouni

quote:

---

So after having started a relationship my choices as an individual stop existing? And that no matter what a decision, once made, should always hold? That presumes that having made a wrong choice the life that follows is a just punishment for making the mistake.

---

Of course not! A relationship is not he only sort of position that would bring with it responsibilities, however, it would fit the paradigm. Suicide is not the only way of dealing with problems! You speak as though it is the exclusive option in this case. You are always free to converse with others upon the situation at hand. To kill onself in a position in which others somehow depend on you without saying a word to anyone else about your condition or ideas is a negative action in most cases- it is abandoning those who hold a dependancy upon you. You would not simply stop feeding a dog or cat. This case is similar in many respects, no?

Thank you,
Stillwater

With the spousal issue, military, etc., you make a great deal of sense lola. One can always divorce or quit their job and then off themselves.

People tend to think of suicide as a decision made on a whim - that if only the person waited a few more years they would've changed their mind. There are people who, from very young ages, recognized the limits of this existence and have kept suicide as an option onwards towards their adult life. This is not emotional in the conventional sense, nor strictly developmental. It's personally derived preference.

Why this concept escapes so many, I don't know. To prefer what is not to what is is the essential driving force behind human growth.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jilola

quote:

---

It is not that it is not the right of the individual to choose, but rather that they made a previous decsion which brought others under their care or supervision, and to default upon such duties is a tragedy indeed.

---

So after having started a relationship my choices as an individual stop existing? And that no matter what a decision, once made, should always hold? That presumes that having made a wrong choice the life that follows is a just punishment for making the mistake.

I can agree in the case where someone incapable of surviving on their own is in my care but in the case of adults the idea that my choices are defined by others is odd to say the least.

The only choice that should always be made from the point of view of another is having children be it by natural birth or adoption.
Anyother choice is first and foremost to be made in succh a way that the decision maker is tru to his/her self. Otherwise the decisions become a prison and lead to entirely unnecessary bitterness.

2cents & L&L
jouni

---

Jouni,

Are you still talking suicide here or decisions in general[?]

Yours,
Kerri

Stillwater, Phong: Please read my posts. My position is that suicide should not be a way to run away from problems.

Stillwater

quote:

---

To kill onself in a position in which others somehow depend on you without saying a word to anyone else about your condition or ideas is a negative action in most cases- it is abandoning those who hold a dependancy upon you

---

I thought we agreed on this [;)]
Any choice and action should be made in such a way as to cause as little or no harm to others.
But a person, if considered free and having a free will, s ultimately the oneto make a decision, be it leaving, staying, living, dying, taking a oad, geting drunk. And I can see that comparing the choice of suicide with getting drunk will get thrown back at me [;)]

Phong: Indeed such drastic a decision should be made witha a clear head and with enough time to avoid making a mistake that can't be reversed in this lifetime.

Lighthouse: Still on topic, only on a short sidetrack to tie in the opinion offered about sitation where one seemingly may not own one's self.

2cents & L&L
jouni

Ah, the suicide debate. This is a tricky one, but i'll add what i can. So, before birth if we all choose our own death, it is from the spiritual standpoint that when we are in Lesson we have certain goals to accomplish, for ourselves or others or both. Suicide during life is usually the result of earthly fear, material loss, inescapable fate. The illusion of terror is so strong, the depression, the anger, the hate, the myriad of negative emotions prompt one to take their life, hoping for better, but to die when one feels SO bad often leads to them feeling just as bad dead...and with no body.

I remember reading that when Robert Bruce was possessed he was ready to kill himself. But his decision was based solely on saving the lives of his children and family, as the demon was intent on killing them first and driving him insane. I believe that at the time Bruce was aware of his spiritual options, his divine nature and would not have killed himself from lack of knowledge or intuition. Fortunately he didn't have to do that.

Add to the equation those spiritual decisions that are made where we DO decide to kill ourselves. I don't see why some spirits make this decision willingly, if not a lesson to themselves but to others. The complexity of the karma involved is mind boggling and i don't understand it all, but in general i think it is better not to kill oneself if at all possible. The Lesson ends abruptly, and spiritually you are just delaying what you could have learned. Still, there are times when suicide is not a bad choice: perhaps chronic pain, unavoidable death, unavoidable torture...I never thought that Dr. Kavorkian(sp?) was a criminal. He thought he was helping, and the people he helped die did so peacefully.

Narfellus:

quote:

---

I don't see why some spirits make this decision willingly, if not a lesson to themselves but to others.

---

Yup. Cant think of anything that would add to that.
Edit: I could after all:

I think one should be careful to make necessary distinctions with the situations and motives for someone chooseing to end his life.

Running away from problems may indeed have spiritual adverse consequences but if a person has given his best effort to resolve the situation and has failed. What is so spiritually noble that a person would have to endure unending grief and pain?

Suicidce to harm others intentionally by causing them grief is clearly not a good idea.

Self-sacrifice is a nice and PC euphemism for a voluntary suicide. It's laudable that one should care for others so much that he's willing to risk his own life for them.

Another situation is having the revelation that one's life work (spiritually speaking) is complete and one has the option of staying to help others or leaving early. Who is to say that leaving early isn't a lesson to those left behind about the illusion of death and that one shouldn't fear it so much as to let it control one's life?

2cents & L&l
Jouni

To come back to the "responsibility" thing...  What do you think of: "Your parents took care of you; so now it's your turn to take care of your parents".  Basicaly, you would be responsible for them for the rest of their lives; which could be something like 50+ years...  Is this right?  Shouldn't the parents have planned the rest of their lives?

Some parents just "kick" their children out of their house; as soon as they are 18/21.  Is that giving up on their responsability?

And, if some people feel so bad as to end up their life; I'm pretty sure they won't even think about this responsability thing.

Personaly, I love freedom.  That's why I will never get married or have children.  I don't want to be chained for the rest of my life.

Also, you talk mainly about suicide because of fear, or to escape problems...  What about people who cannot find anything meaningfull in their life?  If you put aside all the theories of re-incarnation, learning lessons, spiritual test for the after life, etc...  What pushes you to go on with your life (apart from the fear of death)?  Maybe we are just there to grow, reproduce and expand our consciousness... to be later "milked" by some higher entit(y/ies)...

Nagual:

quote:

---

Also, you talk mainly about suicide because of fear,

---

Could you specify who you refer to with "you"? There are so many psoters recently that it gets confusing [8D]

2cents & L&L
jouni

ooooh! this is an interesting thread.

Depression is so complex, I feel I can't really comment on suicide in terms of morals and ethics.
I do see it as purely a learning experience for the higher self.

But I wanna share a random dream I had the other night, (I'll make it short). This person, (can't remember who) asked me to help them kill themselves, (can't remember why) and my response was "No I can't, I don't believe in death.. because life is an illusion"

Just something I've been thinking about.

Nagual, myself, like you, neither want children or to be married. Maybe married one day, but for now i see no point, and in my personal belief system the only reason i see to get married is to have a core family unit to raise children...whom i don't want. It is partly that i would feel chained, but more so i feel that my life has been chosen and directed to help and serve in other ways, even if i don't remember that decision. Plus, the state of the world is rather chaotic and having the responsibility of raising a child is one i don't want. Uh...i guess that deviated from the topic some. sorry!

quote:

---

Could you specify who you refer to with "you"? There are so many psoters recently that it gets confusing

---

"you" being the ones who "talk mainly about suicide because of fear, or to escape problems".  If you did not talk about it, you are not "you"...   [;)]

Nagual: I thought I wasn't you but I figured it doesn't hurt to confirm it. And it didn't. [:P]

2cents & L&L
Jouni

I am not saying it is ok or not ok; I am just wondering about the different motivations...

Realizing that, so far, my life has been "sleep, study, sleep, study, ..., sleep, work, sleep, work, sleep, work... etc...", I tend to get a little depressed...  I just think "What's the point?"

One of my "big problem" (everything is relative) is that I loose interest VERY quickly, about EVERYTHING.  By example, even with OBEs.  I used to practice up to several hours a day... and now, I just think again "What's the point?".  And many things that people seems to enjoy or be passionate about (books/movies/art/technology/nightclubs/chatting/family/etc...) don't attract me.

So, I am just waiting... waiting for something to appear/happen...  Hope that 2012 is for real!!!  [:D]

Help me!!!  I have the "What's the point?" syndrom!!!!!  [B)] [|)]

Yes, Nagual, you are mentally ill, and there's a pill we have that can fix it for you. We're  not exactly sure what it is yet, but we can have you keep trying what's available until we find one that's right for you.

In the mean time we'll be perfecting more medication for your condition, so that you will finally adopt the goods and services the market provices and be just like everybody else.

There have been many times when i was extremely bored with life. And that SUCKS, because it is only mindset/interpretation, and the fact that there were alot of things about LIVING i didn't understand. I'm doing much better. The more i learn about our world and just how full of magic it is, the power of our thoughts and learning how to create our reality, hell, you can practice it every day, every moment. There is nothing boring about that, realizing that i have an inkling of an idea of what i really am, while the majority of the world rolls by in its illusion.

If you find yourself bored, and i use this advice myself, try to find your higher self through whatever metaphysical means necessary. Continue to teach and learn everyday, and realize that the more you know if this life the further you will be advanced in the next. Our time is precious here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jilola

Where, exactly, is the difference then?
The end result is the same only the reasons are different.


2cents & L&L
Jouni

---

You've answered the question yourself.. => the reason

Just ot be clear these are my beliefs.

Suicide for me is like throwing away a gift it's a kinda service to self, whatever the reason may be. Don't get me wrong I would never give judgment if someone else would commit suicide..

Giving your life for some one else (whatever the reason may be) is a service to others...

Greetings Nagual,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nagual

I am not saying it is ok or not ok; I am just wondering about the different motivations...

Realizing that, so far, my life has been "sleep, study, sleep, study, ..., sleep, work, sleep, work, sleep, work... etc...", I tend to get a little depressed...  I just think "What's the point?"

One of my "big problem" (everything is relative) is that I loose interest VERY quickly, about EVERYTHING.  By example, even with OBEs.  I used to practice up to several hours a day... and now, I just think again "What's the point?".  And many things that people seems to enjoy or be passionate about (books/movies/art/technology/nightclubs/chatting/family/etc...) don't attract me.

So, I am just waiting... waiting for something to appear/happen...  Hope that 2012 is for real!!!  [:D]

Help me!!!  I have the "What's the point?" syndrom!!!!!  [B)] [|)]

---

This is the reality you have created for yourself; everyone without any exceptions creates their own reality. The more you focus on your current reality, the more it will become so until you start to focus on what you do want instead of what you do not want.

I suggest that you sit down and decide exactly what you do want, and know that you already have it. This knowing has to be beyond any sort of doubt to such an extent that you feel all of the positive emotions associated with your ideal situation. Write it down in great detail, and focus on it as often as possible. If a negative thought every enters your mind immediately focus on your new reality knowing it to be yours.

These are the Universal laws of attraction and correspondence. The entire Universe is energy, we are energy and your thoughts are energy; whatever you think, you are. Negative thoughts therefore attract the corresponding negative energies and realities and positive thoughts attract the corresponding positive energies and realities. Anyone who Astral projects will know beyond doubt that in the Astral and inner worlds you can observe thoughts taking shape, you can create anything at all with your imagination and focussed thoughts. In the Astral beings are very careful about their thoughts. There is only one set of Universal laws and therefore they equally apply to the physical world, the only difference being that manifestation of thoughts takes longer in the physical world due to the much higher density and lower vibration of matter.

If you do not like your current reality then create for yourself the reality you do want, and be absolutely sure that it is yours.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Ok but... the problem is that I do not know what to aim for...
I did not find anything "meaningful" yet.
Maybe one day...

And, to come back to the responsability topic: didn't the Buddha abandonned his whole family to continue on is spiritual path...?

Nagual,
When I was young and in school I remember one thoughtful summer I was wondering the same as you. I had an appetite for something, but I couldn't pinpoint it. I thought at the time it was these great coconut chocolate chip cookies. It was like an addiction. This night I ate a regular salad. I was eating in my room alot at that time. I pretty much had everything I wanted or needed in my own little world. I read books and looked at magazines and did all the things young people do. I might have been off from school for a short while (this happened in July). This night was growing long. I thought I would star gaze for awhile and then go to bed. When I pulled the curtain back to look out, there was a flying saucer only yards from my window. I couldn't believe it, it frightened me. I couldn't take my eyes off of it. I wanted to yell and tell everyone in the house about this. I wanted to call the police (Would they believe me though?And then there are cover-ups on the subject.). I was afraid to let this ufo know I was there, so I stayed quiet, but felt this object or who were in it knew I was there. It slowly moved over to some houses and landed. It was dark out, as it landed it's brightly colored orange glow dimmed and disappeared behind trees. I was too frightened to do anything. The next morning I told my mother what I saw. She said she had been hearing ufos for the previous two nights.She shared what she heard (she listened to one landing on our house 2 nights in a row!). We both wondered about this, but remained calm about it.

A thought that occured to me during this unreal time, the reality we know can so easily be changed. Appreciate what you have while it's here. I had no idea at the time if the world was going to change drastically! Nope, life went on. I changed a bit though.

You never know what's around the corner(or through the window...or behind the door!). It eventually all falls together. Life is a mystery. It keeps me interested.

I've enjoyed your posts, Naugal...I've wondered where you went.Here you are! Life does have it's ups and downs, don't let it get the best of you.

I have read that Buddha did leave his family for a time.

Nagual, i don't know much abouttyour personal life, but let me share what has worked for me. It should be pretty universal. First, take care of your body. Watch what crap you put into it. America here feeds us terrible stuff by default, you have to go out of your way to eat healthy.

Excercise often often often. God gave us these bodies to work miracles, and they can. Horribly disfigured or obese or injured people have chosen such a path for their own lessons, but in general our bodies are made to work optimally and process incredible energy.

Try therapeutic chiropracty and reflexology./ Tend to nerves and ligaments.  Try to stay away from negative thoughts, and that is hard because most people spout negative thoughts and gossip.  AND DONT GOSSIP! It has nothing to do with anyone, just spreads lies and bad feelings.

Learn as much about spirituality as you possibly can. The New Age is 60 years upon us, and it will be divine. We can create our realities, believe it or not. This world is an energy based illusion, and our thoughts are energy based. Many books teach you how to manifest your reality, but it takes practice. Once you see the changes you'll be hooked.

Like attracts like. bad to bad and fun to fun and joy to joy and hate to hate. There are few exceptions. I learned much of this through trial and error and spent years wasting my life in boredom and listlessness. It is not necessary other than a lesson that you need. Your boredom now is a lesson, and the time is always always right to learn. keep learning always, keep loving and keep find your higher self. I'm getting better myself everyday, and i wish that upon everyone else too.

oh Lola, that is just a sad story.  I wonder what it is about the Japanese culture that breeds such self loathing, so bad that groups of youth end their lives when they haven't even begun? And then the parents are fined? Yikes. I DID hear that their school system is ruthless and unforgiving, with more pressure than Americans are used to. Plus, i think they have an ancestral religious system, so their idea of the afterlife is probably very different. thanks for that tidbit.

And yes, get a pet Nagual, they are therapeutic. start easy and work up to a dog. if you like dogs that is.

Yeah, I do love animals but...  that still seems like non-important to me...

Just take for example... hum... soccer.  Quite a few people seems to live just for soccer; worship soccer; etc...  while for me, watching a bunch of guys kicking in a ball, means nothing.  Some people learn the phonebook by heart.  Some people spend their life reading fiction books.  Some people spend their life on computer games.  Some people would kill if you take their cellphone away.  Etc...

Creating your reality is all nice but... to create what?  It's like taking the plane to another country and then immediatly come back without having visited anything...  Why take the plane at all?  Espescially when the ride is long/boring/tiring...

So, my problem is not really being bored; it's more having no goal; not knowing the purpose of this life.  Of course I heard of all the theories out there (afterlife, reincarnation, etc...), but theories are just theories.

And what about immortality?  Would you really want to become immortal?    It reminds me of the "Ground Hog Day" movie.

Welcome to the life of many, Nar.  Painful, ain't it?

Keep digging, you'll eventually find an answer I reckon'.  Have I found one?  Nope.  But hope is not just soap-on-a-rope.

We'll get there, eventually.

quote:

---

Is there anything you want? you must want something?

---

I know what I don't want...  I don't want to be like a robot.  I don't want to be used.  I don't want to be a good consumer that will buy countless of useless crap just to help the economy.  I don't want to be a good citizen that obediently goes to work, makes a few kids (so that there will be enough of them to pay the retirement for old people), buy a house and get a dog.  I don't want to pay taxes to sponsor some stupid games/shows on governemental TV.  I am sick of being seen as a walking wallet by the marketing guys.

It's like if you are hired for a job; but they just don't tell you what you are supposed to do.  So you just goof around... with no goal...  It's like if you work several years on a project, and then the project is finaly cancelled.

It's like being a rat in a cage, observed by some scientists.  They just watch you as you turn around in your cage, again, and again, and again...

Nagual, i have a feeling you glazed through my previous post as irrelevant fluff from a stranger. I have been in your EXACT FRAME OF MIND and i know how difficult it can be to climb out of that pit. We are all here on earth in Lesson to endure fears and frustrations and obstacles in order to overcome them.  That is why we are ALL here. The tools are available to beat anything, we must find and practice and use them.

I won't and can't preach to you what to believe; no one can do that. all i can do is nudge you in the right direction, you must be willing to heal yourself. This world is full of wisdom from healers and wise men and teachers, almost all of it available on amazon.com. READ READ READ. Pray for higher knowledge and actively seek it out. You are mistaken about the boredom; having no goal or purpose creates your bordome, not vice versa. Learn the duality of mankind; you're right, most people don't know what they're doing and focus on unimportant issues and live like robots because everyone they learn from also acts like a robot. it is not who we truly are, and the reality is more wonderful than i can cram into this little post. I've been where you are and i know it is beatable. Your pain was actually picked by you before you were born so that you would be forced to seek tools to overcome it. you will grow in many ways, more than you realize.

quote:

---

Originally posted by narfellus

We are all here on earth in Lesson to endure fears and frustrations and obstacles in order to overcome them.  That is why we are ALL here "..." I won't and can't preach to you what to believe; no one can do that.

---

Well, narfellus, you overstepped your ground. That statement, that we are all here to learn lessons and overcome fears etc., is not fact. It is a belief.

Now, it may be a fact for your case - you might have experienced a high state of consciousness where you could actually remember choosing to come to earth, or another kind of revealing experience. But if we take a look at the objective evidence available, there is little to suggest that existence (birth) is voluntary. Rather, conception is commonly the result of a decision made between two consenting adults and biological factors. Voluntary death is taboo.

This is critical for our understanding of the topic of this thread. Is existence a voluntary decision?

My own subjective experience suggests no, that existence here is a mistake (or punishment). I have an unending number of experiences that suggest this, but I will simply say that, after observing my dreams and this world side by side for some time, I would pick the dreams every time. Prior to awakening from an astral experience, I always experience a "fall," as though I've tripped, and then an abrupt "thump," as if a suit of bone and flesh encapsules me. I open my eyes to a cloud of ignorance.

People die often for no apparent reason at all - careless car accidents, disease, and natural distasters. Can we say that they learned everything they needed to learn? Aren't the lives of the young cut short? And when does life begin, anyway, at conception? When do we develop a rational self-directed personality, maybe at 4 or 5? When do we have the right to personal responsibility, 18 or 21? Is it ok to kill bad people before they attack me? What about during the attack, didn't Jesus preach "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek"? Are we responsible for someone's suicide if we yelled at them and made them sad? Are suicidal people responsible for the sadness of their family?

Oh yeah, and what is the meaning of life? Why are we here, learning... to what end? Is learning an end to itself? Isn't that.. boring?

These aren't easy questions and I am befuddled by your attempt to nudge people in the "right" direction. No hard feelings.[|)]

Nagual, who says you have to have goals?

There must be certain activities you enjoy.  Photography, flying, feeding ducks even.  Whatever.  You apparently enjoy surfing the Web.  My suggestion is not to have a goal as such, but to aim to bend your life towards being able to participate in these activities as much as possible.

If I were so rich that I wouldn't have to work again (one day, one day), I would no longer have any goals.  I would simply spend my time doing what I enjoy.  None of us needs to be rich to do that, though - unless your hobbies are collecting private jets or something, heh.  So do what it takes to be able to maximise the time you can spend doing what you enjoy.  These ideals are all that get me through each crappy job I get. [|)]

Well, in my eyes, suicide is a foolish act, except the case where someone unavoidably has to die and suffers from extreme physical pain.

Everything else is foolish and irrational, in my eyes.

That wouldn't be a reason in my opinion. Even if someone is very, very old, there is nothing which could stop him/her from making friends, or having ... other relationships.

"About to go broke" ... well, I can't speak for other countries (but I hope it's similar), but here in Germany it is impossible to go completely broke, as the state helps the people with absolutely no money - if the people accept the help, what not all do for some strange reasons.

But money is no reason to commit suicide. There are always other ways.

Irrational decisions aren't always wrong.

I didn't say that they're wrong.

Phong, that is the exact purpose of our dualtiy! [:)]That we won't remember our previous choices. It is difficult to explain because it goes against the grain of anything that can be scientifically proven. It is also the fundamental basis of nearly all new age theology, but like i said, it is not my job nor inclination to change anyone's mind. This is a planet of Free Choice and Free Will, and anyone is free to believe what they wish. If someone asks for help (which Nagual did) i offered what i have found to be the highest truth for myself. My bounds were not overstepped. My opinion was layed out, as was yours with all respect, and that's all there is to it.

I agree that suicide is generally a bad idea, but the ramifications have a lot to do with my own belief system. When someone is old and in chronic pain and there are no options for relief, then i feel that ending the existence is ok, just to get the next life started sooner (and happier hopefully). There's generally nothing more for that person, but as i think i mentioned in a previous post, one's belief system at the time of death has a lot to do with where they go after they die.

Quote:

I now realize that I suicided because there were things I couldn't deal with, emotional things, things between myself and others. I was in so much pain. That pain didn't go away after I killed myself and I now realize that the one thing I need to resolve the pain is hanging from the rafters in the garage.

The above quote is from an experience by Mr Moen of the other BBS and serves as a classic example of the points I was trying to get across to someone a while ago on this BBS. Where the person was feeling despair to the point where they seriously felt like killing themselves. It also touches on the whole question of why are we here? Why do we become incarnate?

The basic answer is we are all here to learn lessons. Lessons that would be impossible to learn within the realms of the Astral. The reason is, again, due to the fact that within the Astral: Thought=DirectAction. Within such a sphere of reality, it is impossible to put any distance between your thoughts and your surrounding circumstances. Having a physical body acts as a very effective buffer between the whole thought-release-action connection.

It give us the ability to sit back and think; become emotional even; and not have our circumstances flit from one scene to the next. This gives us the luxury of being able to work through emotions such as fear and anger, and not have representations of these feelings continually being manifest, instant by instant, before our very eyes. As such, being Physical gives us the grand opportunity of being able to work to gain the requisite degree of knowledge and understanding, in order to banish these highly damaging emotions from our consciousness.  

Yours,
Frank