Summerland?

[lateralus897]

Well, I'm no Christian myself, but I know someone who is and talked with her about her view of out of body experiences. She said that she believed people have them when God has something important to show someone. I don't think she accepted the fact that people can have them willingly and control them at their own leisure. But that at least is her view.

[clandestino]

Hi Mustardseed ! Welcome to the forum.

I think that if you read through a few of the posts on this forum, you'll notice that people who project regularly and conciously have revised their belief systems according to their experiences.

I'd even go as far as saying that their experiences are often at odds with the whole christian ideology.

Of all religions I would say that astral projection aligns itself with Buddhism, but others may disagree. Reconciling these beliefs with Christianity wouold be tricky, to say the least !

Anyway 2 points :
1) many of the visions described within the bible are typical of OBE type experiences.
2) I was on a Christian religious retreat when I was at school, and a priest led the group in meditation, visualization and "feeling" various parts of the body with the mind (as per Robert Bruce's Tactile imagining & MBA techniques). This was intended as a religious experience, but the techniques are very similar to those that can produce OBE's.
regards,
Mark

[Paukki]

quote: I am interested in weather other Christians are Projecting and how they incoperate it into their belief system.

Welcome, Mustardseed!
This writer was raised Lutheran and was in and out of various similar versions of the USA brand of evangelical and charismatic Christian circles.  Presently I tend to believe that Jesus was a man whose ego became totally dissolved in "Being"/the Creator/Essence-of-us-all, etc., but that organized religions generally have gone off on a variety of tangents that tend to obscure the breadth, heights, and depth--and simplicity-- of the message.  Entering upon conscious pursuit of non-physical exploration is, to me, a step away from "mere belief" and toward "knowing", in addition to quite possibly being a fairly obvious  manifestation of mankind's need to evolve to a higher degree of consciousness.  (I mean, isn't it likely that the numbers of projectors is growing rapidly?  Not that I've heard any surveys recently, although that would be interesting.)   []

Perhaps you've come across some of those who talk about the difference between "knowing" and "belief systems", perhaps not. The evidence piling up along these lines certainly seems to suggest that the dark glass that we've been looking through is getting less dark, (as I'm sure you're familiar with the NT quote about "we see through a glass darkly.")  

Lately I've listened to an audio book called "The Power of Now", (by Eckhart Tolle, a "modern mystic"), around 6 or 7 times.  I find it interesting that he says "no one was ever enlightened by an out-of-body experience", although he does admit to its ability to give one an idea of the freedom involved.  Like Dr. Thomas J. Chalko, ("The Freedom of Choice"), Tolle underlines the importance of being in your physical body--that that's where the transformative action is taking place.  I think Chalko said that being in his physical body, today, NOW, is the best choice he can make (today, NOW), but this should be understood as coming from someone who has done a ton of meditating and has been "way out there", obe-wise.  Many of us feel like we have barely begun to exercise our power of choice.  Including this writer.  

Have fun!   []

--Paukki

[Mustardseed]

Well it may be difficult for some to align belief and experience however , Thank God not for me. Incidently I started searching for Spiritual truth and eventually came to be "born again"as we call it through 3 seperate OBE incidents at 16yrs. My problem lies more with the established christianity lets call it "churchanity" for the purpose of differentiating. It is obvious to any Bible student or scholar that the old and New Testamente are riddles with OBE experiences Angels Prophecy Healing etc. too numerous to even begin to account. The problem lies in my opinion in weather you believe that these things are as real today as they were then. I have had numerous experiences with Healing Exorsism and it follows the patters that RB lays out in his new book to a T and it is real to me. The problem may also lie in terminology. What you call clairvoince I may call visions, what you call OBE the Bible calls "to be caught up in the Spirit" what you call Etheric body I call the Soul (not to confuse with the Spirit). The list goes on. However a Rose by another name is still... a Rose. It is a problem that mainstream Religions always seem to want to "corner the market" so to speak. If things are not experienced on their turf or within the confines of their vocablery it is rejected as heretic. May I also mention Buddism and Hiduism in this context as these religions are as ridgid as others though they seem more fluid on the surface. This is one of the reasdons I greatly appreciate Robert Bruce and his use of Neutral definitions.
Regards to all
Mustardseed

[Paukki]

quote:My problem lies more with the established christianity lets call it "churchanity" for the purpose of differentiating.

Interesting.  I quit what I came to call as "churchianity" in the spring of 1981.  Your word for it is just one letter different!  []  No doubt a million or millions of people have come up with the same sort of word.  So, I'm curious...were you a "maverick" missionary working on your own, or did you have some kind of support group?  If you don't want to discuss this, that's fine--just curious.  You know, it was 20 years before I even dared to >>think<< about looking into astral projection/oobe's, and it was another year or so before I got serious about it.  This was mostly because the subject is not exactly on the front burner, collectively speaking, but also because those oldtime religios taboos, ("Don't tamper with the spirit world!  You'll get haunted, maybe even possessed!"), were strongly embedded in my psyche.  I think these are serious issues, in the sense that if someone is "programmed" to think that way, you don't want to force oob type stuff on them and thus possibly lead them to some form of self-punishment, pre-programmed Neg experiences, etc.  Sure, there might be fears to face--I've had some interesting experiences--and some individuals report some really negative stuff.  Probably not a good idea to venture "overseas" without at least some knowledge about what the heck you're doing.  Human beings are exploring and terribly curious creatures, though, so I don't think fear, (and use of fear), is going to hold us back.  

--Paukki
"Damn the torpedoes--full speed ahead!"

[Makaveli]

I still consider myself a Christian but I'm not religous anymore.  Some Christians are open-minded towards astral projection but others are convinced that it's a trick of the devil but I can't understand their reasoning behind that since there is nothing to suggest that God condemns it.  They seem to be very hostile to anything paranormal or outside blind faith it's especially the paranoid people who blame everything on satan.

[Mustardseed]

Well it is not on the subject matter but if it is ok for the forum I did work with a NRM (New Religous Movement) independant financially and loosely connected spiritually. We taught health hygiene family care stuf at hospitals as well as engaged in Evangelising. Was there with my wife and kids ( . I had a fair bit of experience with Negs in various forms but they never bothered me too much. I do believe an active healthy lifestyle motivated by helping others out of a sincere heart keeps a lot of these things at bay. By that I mean that what you do with your life shows more what you believe than what you say. Like brother sun said in a famous movie about Franz of Assisi "words, there was a time I believed in words".
On another point I had a very beautiful experience again with the summerland (seems closest in description)
Started with a lucid dream where I had a choice of engaging in some very interesting sexual fantasy , for some reason (maybe I am actually growing a little bit ha) I refused it and imidiately the OBE started there was a very brief vibrational sensation and I found myself in a boat on a absolutely georgous sea . I was near shore and on my left there was some tall golden buildings in the distance, I stood up on the rail bent my legs slightly and took off as I went up My view changed and I saw way into the distance. I reached my desired hight and put my arms out to stop changed to a vertical position and mooved forward. The atmosfere was like a summerday, like music was in  the whole atmosfere and everything was smiling. I looked over my right shoulder at the boat slowly disappearing beneth me and the shimmering semi golden waves. I approached land and found a landscape comprised of forest all in circular shapes and of different sizes inbetweed was grass and every so often pools of either sand or water(couldn't quite make it out from the hight). People were very small but seemed to be playing laughing lots of life and well....it was just fantastic. I was crying lightly trying hard to control my breathing but as I started sobbing it all became sort of transparent and I felt I was everso slowly loosing it. suddenly like pouring into a bottleneck I wooshed back down to my body. Very touching. I stayed for a while trying to go back but as I felt the memory getting weaker I got up and wrote it all down.
Well what do you all make of it. I always seem to go to this place without heavy exit sensations and often from Lucid dreams. Any comments.
Kind Regards
Mustardseed

[Leyla]

Earlier forms of christianity were for more mystical and magickal and occult, several had women as priests. Unfortunatly the catholics killed them all.

Why don't you check out "The Dark Side Of Christian History" by Hellen Ellerby. It's only a twelve dollar book.

It contains many original letters and writings from early church fathers.
As well as Gnostic and Cathar texts.

It really enlightened me on the political climate of the times.

[Mustardseed]

Thankyou Leyla  I appreciate your comment. There is probably a lot of knowledge there but I prefer to live my life on the bright side, and not explore the darkness unless I have a reason to. I think it is a wise saying that "curiosity killed the cat" and believe many develop a facination or obsession with the darker side of things and endanger themselves for no reason. Sometimes I feel "Led" to these spiritual outposts if you can call them that but I only go there if I feel it is part of my "plan". Some are called for this and have the protection and maturity to handle it I believe Robert Bruce is most likely one of them and they help the rest of us , but this is not a game that you can do over if you loose through a fault of your own. There is free will for sure but in my life the saying is true " the things that are pure innocent lovely and of a good report, dwell on these things and give no room for evil." (The Bible) As I said this is only my opinion and how I see things others may feel differently.
Kind Regards Mustardseed

[Greytraveller]

Hallo Mustardseed. []
Never having communicated with anyone who has been to Summerland I could not pass up the opportunity to say hi.
Though not a Christian I definately do believe in (the Chrisian) God. However I have some issues with the oraganized Christian churches and so am probably more of a dualist (though do Not lean toward the diabolical side!).
Anyways I was under the impression that Summerland had been visited by many people who had either undergone NDEs or religiously charged OBEs.
I was curious if you had met anyone who had an experience at Summerland? If so, did you find that all or most of those people had strong Christian beliefs?
BTW here are two websites you may find interesting. www.nderf.orf and www.oberf.org NDERF stands for Near Death Experience Research Foundation. There are quite a few reports there about Summerland.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Greytraveler
Appreciate the comment and will visit the sites. I just wondered if it was the summerland? Maybe it is just me being so flipped out happy to fly that it all looks like the summerland to me ha. Wonder if some of these lands are generated by US more than actual places in the astral realm. "According to your Faith be it done unto you"
Kind Regards
Mustardseed

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

"Summerland" as I understand it from the descriptions I have seen and read, is probably the mid-Astral where most decent people will arrive after physical death. It is likely the "Focus 27" and "The Park" of Monroe. It might well be that there is a specific "Summerland" realm within the mid-Astral, created by centuries of Pagan beliefs of such an area. It would be like a belief system territory as created by religious fundamentalists, but of course is a much freer place being at a higher level of vibration, and would indeed be the "Summerland".

Interestingly, here in the Isle of Man which has very heavy pagan influences, the main entertainment centre where people go to have fun, especially children, is called the Summerland.

As for christianity - there seems little doubt that, as has been already pointed out, that it was much more Spiritual in the first couple of hundred years AD with the Essenes, Gnostics etc., and they taught reincarnation and other important Spiritual matters. I am not sure when catholicism arrived, but around 350AD christianity began to morph into what it is today.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Mustardseed]

Well I dont really know much about Christianity as such but I consider myself a scholar of the Bible and a mature Christian. I always avoided going to church and mostly felt quite slighted by most Christians because of my beliefs in the spiritual. I am a strong believer in Spirit helpers, Limbo, the Law of Love, (all things are lawfull to me but not all things are beneficial ..Bible)Astrology, (scorpio Libra rising) etc I could go on for a long time. I haver found more common ground with many New Age folks but also feel that I don't belong there as they often look down on me for being a Christian. Not that I really care all that much but I guess its nice to feel accepted. Anyway I do have some beliefs that are not based on faith but observation, OBEs and Neg activity being among them and so ....here I am Ha anyway It seems I might have to forgo this joy and not spend time at the forum. Since the last 3 days I have had aprox 150 critical hits on my firewall so it seems several people are trying to gain acces to my computer. I was typing a reply to Greytraveler as I am doing now and someone started to actually type in comments in my message box. Like this....

Dear Grey....wow that is a long name hope you dont mind abbreviations

whoever it was actually incerted that in my screen. Well It sort of saddened me that it seems my comments or my being Christian is resented. I guess it could also be happening to you all but somehow doubt it. I never had problems with people trying to gain acces and only started coming here 3 days ago. What do you make of it? Any suggestions.? I do enjoy and learn from what I hear here and would miss it.
Kind regards Mustardseed

[Greytraveller]

It is a sad comment on modern organized religion when a Christian must defend their spiritual beliefs. This is one (of several) reasons why I have stayed away from churches. [V]
Summerland Could be a creation of many peoples' strong spiritual beliefs. I like the idea of Summerland being mostly a pagan creation. That would help to explain the many reports by children who have been there. (Most children are Not religious.) []
regarding someone hacking your computer Mustardseed I suggest contacting a forum moderator or administrator and seeing if other Astral Pulse members have had this problem. Perhaps they can help you.

[Psypunk]

I grew up in Africa and Europe as a missionary kid, and have had OBE's and lucid dreams since as long as I can remember.  At first I told people about them, but then most people in the church told me that it was evil and of the devil.  I couldn't understand it because I have often visited "Summerland" (as a kid a "person" in summerland told me it was called wonderland) and didn't see it as evil at all.  
I believe in the Bible and consider myself born again, yet I still Astral Project.  I didn't know others had the ability until I saw Astral Dynamics in a store and read it.  I was amazed that others experienced what I had, and couldn't understand why the rest of the people I knew had no idea what I was talking about.  After reading Robert Bruce's book, I was able to control my AP's a lot better, but still I find that if I'm not "at peace" with myself and everything else in my life I have a much harder time controlling them.  I think that at times AP can be very spiritual, and other times just for fun and rejuvenation.
I wonder why certain people are more prone to astral projection and lucid dreams than others?  Neither of my parents ever seem to have them.  My grandpa was crazy, so maybe that has something to do with it [] .

[Paukki]

quote: At first I told people about them, but then most people in the church told me that it was evil and of the devil.

Saw a "Profile" show on Dr. Raymond Moody, (famed NDE-compiler), on
"The Wisdom Channel" one night.  When asked about how and why there were the negative reactions to his research, (reactions such as the one quoted above), he compared it to the mapmakers of long ago--when the extent of known geography ran to the edge of the drawing and no one knew what was beyond that point, the cartographer would write next to the edge, "And here be  dragons."  

--Paukki

[Terry B]

I also found out that being "at peace" is important for controlling the experience. It goes both way actually.

Some of my friend  have told me about their experience which sounds very much like a projection OBE realet symptoms. They are not into occult, just everyday people. They also don't seem to be very interested to pursue this.

I don't know why some are more prone to this but I guess that most have certain kind of personality and way of thinking. I don't know about my parent as I never ask. But my mum is a very light sleeper. Although my great grandpa do thing that some people may call as a shaman or magician or whatever (which he is not actually but I don't know the right words). Many people come to him for thing such as exorcising, healing and other thing. I have seen him in operation sometime when I was young. He is down to earth and religious. And no, I've never learned about stuff like this from him. He is not crazy either.

[Psypunk]

quote:Originally posted by Terry B

 In fact my beast friend too.

WoW...I wish I had a beast friend.  []

[Terry B]

Darn you Psypunk. [}:)]
Take it back or I'll be embarassed forever!!!

[Vicky]

Hi everyone! I didn't read all of the posts so I am responding to the first one! I must say that I was a big Christian before I began having OBEs, but I still am. I was a little discouraged about this after reading the Robert Monroe's book in which it is told that there is no such thing as God. But as there are so many people who have been helped after praying to God I can never deny his existence. I don't think He created our world or something of this sort but I am sure that there is God only not in the way the church presents him. Well, this is what I think!

[Adrian]

Greetings Vicky,

"God" need not only be the christian concept of God in accordance with their bible.

"God" in absolute terms is what describes our Creator of whom we are all an integral part, the Creator of the Universe in all spheres, and can equally be referred to as the "All", "Divine Providence", the "Great Spirit", "Yod Heh Vav Heh" (Tetragrammaton),and other sacred names throughout the ages.

"God" is not apart from the Universe no more than we are, but rather is the Universe, the "All" and we all exist in the mind of the "All".

There is no heaven and hell as such, but rather only the Universe in degrees of vibration and density from the "All" at the highest/innermost to undifferentiated matter, the physical world at the lowest/outermost. "Heaven" is analogous to the higher spheres which exceed any human concept of "heaven", while "hell" is analogous to the lowest Astral realms, inhabited by the darkest inhabitants.

Prayers work in the same way as Magic. You are not petitioning a deity to do something on your behalf, but rather utilsing the energies and laws of the higher spheres. In the Astral, anything you imagine you need manifests instantly. The same laws apply to the entire Universe in all spheres - there is only one Law. There are many beings of all sorts in the higher Spheres from elementals and elementaries, through Spirits, Angels and your higher self that can also assist, and also, everyone is connected by the collective unconscious.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Paukki]

quote:I was a little discouraged about this after reading the Robert Monroe's book in which it is told that there is no such thing as God.

Vicky, greetings....where did you get this understanding about Monroe?  I've read all 3 of his books, (presently rereading the 2nd one), and that's not what I came up with.  Check out chapter 16 of "Ultimate Journey" and you will find there that he writes what he describes as "These to me are knowns....This, Our Creator..."  (and then he lists things about the Creator).  

Is it possible you pulled something out of context?  

--Paukki

[overworked]

I believe that OBEs only enhance one's christian beliefs.  The ability for one to purposely leave their body and to explore a much talked about, but maybe previously unexperienced state of being, only reinforces my beliefs. I still believe that there is a heaven, however some may classify heaven as a state of vibration, a certain focus level, etc.  Hell, may be real time or worse, but I believe that if we live an evil life, that we are actually creating our own personal hell for the afterlife or projected experience.

The Catholic/Christian church is not a physical structure, but that in which we build in each of us.  

[Mustardseed]

Hello everybody. I am new to this Forum. Have Done what I now know as astral projection since very young. 4 yrs or so. Lost it for some time and started regaining it around 16 now 48 and have become more interested again. It seems everytime I project I instantly apear in what Robert Bruce calls the Summerland? I fly around and seem to cry all the time it is so beautiful. Then crying and the breathing with it pulls me back. I am a very believing Christian . Spent 30 yrs all over the world as a Missionary. India Afghanistan Europe etc. I realise Astral Projection in not looked on as a mainstream Christian activity, but then again I never bothered going to church either and generally reject many established doctrines and Judeo Christian views. I am interested in weather other Christians are Projecting and how they incoperate it into their belief system. Any coment from Robert Bruce?
Kind Regards Mustardseed