A couple of years ago i woke with paralasys and some "witch" was digging into my hip with her/his hands. I have had obe's between now and then but haven't noticed any real problem except some subtle weird feeling in my hip area. Anyway I had a obe recently and something moved violently at my hip, I reached and grabbed the thing, it was a small black "thing" can't really explain what the bonk it was.
I went to the bathroom to flush it down in the sink and it turned into a black sticky slime that was really hard to get off my hands.
Weird things are going on in the world.
Weird things are going on in /your mind/
:-D
Best of luck to you Everlasting.
Quote from: Everlasting on November 25, 2010, 02:13:54
A couple of years ago i woke with paralasys and some "witch" was digging into my hip with her/his hands. I have had obe's between now and then but haven't noticed any real problem except some subtle weird feeling in my hip area. Anyway I had a obe recently and something moved violently at my hip, I reached and grabbed the thing, it was a small black "thing" can't really explain what the bonk it was.
I went to the bathroom to flush it down in the sink and it turned into a black sticky slime that was really hard to get off my hands.
I'm with Interception on this one.
You've got some fears to deal with... and a mind that seems to be running rampant.
QuoteWeird things are going on in the world.
No no, understand, this has nothing to do with the outside world.
This has everything to do with your own mental state and associated fears.
They are just things that need overcoming if you're to have pleasant astral projections. :)
What if the witch was trying to heal something in your hip but you perceived her/it as doing you harm?
Several weeks back I had an OBE when I fell asleep in my arm chair in our lounge (living room). Well in the OBE I walked into our kitchen and then walked back into the lounge to look at myself sleeping in the chair (was odd as I viewed myself as the OBE'er walking and not as myself), anyway for some reason something suddenly jumped me from behind (at this point I was myself and not viewing from another vantage point).
It was odd as it literally grabbed me with a lot of force and initially I struggled but eventually I managed to grab this dark entity and somehow contain it into small ball and threw it in our cupboard beneath the stairs – I then went about with my OBE like I was emptying the trash or something. :|
Usually in my OBE's I have learned to control my senses to avoid creating fear and often my OBE's are pleasant. But in this instance I was analysing myself in the chair on my return to the room and the attack took me by surprise, I wasn't even thinking negative things.
I have often found negative attacks will happen when my guard is down (such as engrossed in something and forgetting where I am or what I am doing), or the negative encounter will be created if I allow myself to think negative things.
So I'm still in two minds about the whole the negative vs positive approach during my OBE's – the main thing is the experiences do not impact me in the real world, and over the years my confidence level has grown no longer to fear such attacks, so curious why every so often they pop up to scare me unprovoked.
Don't listen to those who think astral projection is purely in the mind (it just shows how little their own understanding is of this topic). If you feel it happened, then it happened. What it was that was occuring, though, is probably not going to be known to you for some time, so try to avoid making conclusions based on shaky assumptions.
Quote from: AlanRK on November 25, 2010, 11:01:54
Don't listen to those who think astral projection is purely in the mind (it just shows how little their own understanding is of this topic)
- what do you mean by purely in the mind - such as what you cannot influence (postive or negative) the environment?
Quote from: Alex-Anderson on November 25, 2010, 11:19:53
- what do you mean by purely in the mind - such as what you cannot influence (postive or negative) the environment?
I'm referring to the pattern of people insisting that most astral experiences are entirely self-created through the subconscious. I explained my viewpoint on this in this (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/has_obes_changed_your_attitudes_or_belief_systems-t32502.15.html) thread.
It's not in this thread. Where is it?
Quote from: Taoistguy on November 25, 2010, 13:06:22
It's not in this thread. Where is it?
It's in the response to Xanths comments - if you follow the thread.
Oh yes. Don't see much explaining going on thouigh. :|
Quote from: Taoistguy on November 25, 2010, 13:13:13
Oh yes. Don't see much explaining going on thouigh. :|
I explained! :)
Greetings all and Happy Thanksgiving.
AlanRK your Quote
QuoteDon't listen to those who think astral projection is purely in the mind (it just shows how little their own understanding is of this topic). If you feel it happened, then it happened. What it was that was occuring, though, is probably not going to be known to you for some time, so try to avoid making conclusions based on shaky assumptions.
Excellant Post ! I totally agree. Sometimes negative encounters take place on the astral/ethereal plane, just like they sometimes take place in the physical world. Everything is Not all love and light. The extensive literature of folk lore, myth and religion as well as hundreds of OBE reports all mention encounters with negative and/or violent astral beings. For anyone to dismiss ALL of these reports as simply figments of an individual's trouble mind is indeed quite arrogant. And, oh yes, I do speak from personal experience as well.
Regards 8-)
Grey
Quote from: Naykid on November 25, 2010, 09:31:49
What if the witch was trying to heal something in your hip but you perceived her/it as doing you harm?
I didnt ask for healing, this was a suprise attack. I have had 3 similar attacks in the sleepstate before, these bastards are stealthy and they're searching for weak spots.
Quote from: Everlasting on November 25, 2010, 16:22:04
I didnt ask for healing, this was a suprise attack. I have had 3 similar attacks in the sleepstate before, these bastards are stealthy and they're searching for weak spots.
It's an attack now? I didn't realize this thing had hurt you. I was merely trying to get you to see it from a different perspective. Sorry.
I had a dream where an alien being wanted blood from me and I reached out my arm for them to take a sample, they pushed my arm down and stuck the needle in my stomach, I woke up and my stomach hurt for hours later..nothing major, like I'd done some sit ups. To this day I still would not call what happened to me an attack. Heck, I have no idea what it was, but I'm not any different from it.
Quote from: Everlasting on November 25, 2010, 16:22:04
I didnt ask for healing, this was a suprise attack. I have had 3 similar attacks in the sleepstate before, these bastards are stealthy and they're searching for weak spots.
As Nay pointed out, it's really all in perspective.
You could have three people experience the same thing... and get three completely different perspectives on it.
I'm not suggesting exactly what this was... but a fresh perspective from the rest of us in the form of other opinions might be a good thing to "reflect upon". :)
We also don't need to 'ask' for things... sometimes things are just given to us regardless of our desire for them.
In any case, it's food for thought. ;)
Quote from: Naykid on November 25, 2010, 16:27:27
It's an attack now?
sorry i misunderstood, uhh well the attack happened 2 or more years ago, this infiltrated trojanhorse thing, all it did was to cause some creeping sensation sometimes and when I had fullbody vibrations i felt a different sensation on my hip compared to the rest of the body, like a vibration distorsion or something.
Quote from: Everlasting on November 25, 2010, 18:34:08
sorry i misunderstood, uhh well the attack happened 2 or more years ago, this infiltrated trojanhorse thing, all it did was to cause some creeping sensation sometimes and when I had fullbody vibrations i felt a different sensation on my hip compared to the rest of the body, like a vibration distorsion or something.
Perhaps the sensations on your hip is a warning that something is wrong around that area? I don't know, I'm just putting it out there. :-)
Or maybe something's right? :-D
Heh, but no seriously, if you haven't already done this, check around that hip area when you're in the astral. Remove ANYTHING, no matter how innocent or mundane it may seem.
Quote from: AlanRK on November 25, 2010, 20:36:55
Or maybe something's right? :-D
Heh, but no seriously, if you haven't already done this, check around that hip area when you're in the astral. Remove ANYTHING, no matter how innocent or mundane it may seem.
Not even that... I'd take a jaunt over to the doctor and get them to look at it.
You could have something seriously wrong, and that was your subconscious' best way to alert you to the problem.
xanth, i don't think it's right of you to force your own beliefs onto other people, if they choose to believe it was a real experience then let them please because what you are doing now is similar to what religion does to people.
i read a lot of your posts and just because you haven't had any negative experiences doesn't neccessarily mean it's generated from the subconcious, i don't understand why negative entities can't exist and influence us because there are bad people in this world. so it makes sense for there to be bad entities 'out there' too.
Quote from: TofuAttack on November 26, 2010, 02:54:17
xanth, i don't think it's right of you to force your own beliefs onto other people, if they choose to believe it was a real experience then let them please because what you are doing now is similar to what religion does to people.
You are right, forcing your beliefs on people IS wrong... hence why I do not do it. Nor have I ever.
Although, what you're confusing here is me offering up my opinions in a confident manner. Not FORCING people to believe what I believe... I can't force anyone to do anything. You either read my posts and agree with me and perhaps take that into your own belief system... or you don't. There's no forcing here. This is something I figured out not too long ago myself.
Quotei read a lot of your posts and just because you haven't had any negative experiences doesn't neccessarily mean it's generated from the subconcious, i don't understand why negative entities can't exist and influence us because there are bad people in this world. so it makes sense for there to be bad entities 'out there' too.
You're right, that IS a possibility. And it's one I do entertain... not fully, but I do entertain it.
ALTHOUGH, my direct experience dictates otherwise. So what exactly am I supposed to believe? That which I've never experienced throughout my entire life... or that which others tell me is true because they experience it? Sorry, but I'm gonna go with *my* direct experiences.
Just like, sometimes, others will go with *their* direct experiences regardless of what I say (See? Forcing can't happen). I still have to offer up my opinion, because they asked for opinions.
The problem being that while drawing conclusions from your experiences is a good thing, you are drawing this particular one without applying much logic to it. And also whilst being confident about your opinions is fine, you should rethink being confident about this one because it's obviously not based in much logic. How do you explain:
Several centuries worth of information on the astral indicate heavily the existence of negative entities
Many experiences writers about the astral will mention them at some point
A ton of people, both new and experienced, have met negative entities
The post above brings the valid point that there are plenty of negative entities in our world, so what possible leap of logic could make you conclude that they don't exist in the astral? And if they don't, then could either of us simply decide to be mean and go into the astral and cause trouble for people? That would make us the "first" negative entities. Do you think that's possible? Or do you also think that this world is totally not negative in the least that it's just impossible for anyone negative to exist here or there?
There is more than enough evidence to suggest their existence, which is why your "I haven't met them therefore they aren't real" conclusion is very flawed. While you are not expected to blindly accept their existence without having first experienced it, it is wholly illogical and overconfident (arrogant) to think that your lack of experience of them contradicts and supercedes the countless people who have direct experience of them.
Well AlanRK, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree then. :)
If you read my many past posts on the subject, I very clearly have a logical reason for my beliefs.
I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that these "entities" exist outside the astral as anything more than thought-forms.
What Xanth is going through is very close to what I went through, and when I posted about it yesterday I should have mentioned that I do believe there is evil in the world thus it does make sense that the evil should bleed over into the astral.
My point in the post, that apparently I didn't make very good, is ignoring it. In my opinion it is so much better than doing a series of anti neg rituals. I believe, and believe me I can now say I have experienced evil, is to try your very best to ignore it. I believe that doing such things like salt water baths, and all the other things Mr. Bruce recommends does nothing but feed the evil energy and give it strength whilst doing so. I'm not about to try out my theory that if given enough strength the evil can physically harm you, but I've been told it can, and these people that have told me have done all the cleansing rituals that they could get their hands on. They ate, slept, walked, talked about Negs day in and day out. I still believe we create the intensity of the evil.
QuoteThere is more than enough evidence to suggest their existence, which is why your "I haven't met them therefore they aren't real" conclusion is very flawed. While you are not expected to blindly accept their existence without having first experienced it, it is wholly illogical and overconfident (arrogant) to think that your lack of experience of them contradicts and supercedes the countless people who have direct experience of them.
Alan, here you are doing what you accuse Xanth of doing- which is call his conclusion "wrong" because you don't agree with it. Now mind you, I don't have a definite opinion on the objectivity or 'reality' of the neg thing- but I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it doesn't matter- to me- whether they are objectively real or not- I just use whatever arsenal works for me to get rid of the manifestations, whatever their cause.
I find that fighting about whether they're real or not is a waste of time, because it's a very personal thing, and no one's opinion is wrong for themselves.
Dig?
Quote from: Xanth on November 26, 2010, 11:33:39
Well AlanRK, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree then. :)
If you read my many past posts on the subject, I very clearly have a logical reason for my beliefs.
I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that these "entities" exist outside the astral as anything more than thought-forms.
I have read your thoughts on the subject on your blog, I assume this is a summary as I do not have the time to go through all of your posts. My points remain just as relevant, I don't see anything on your blog which contradicts them. Your main foundation on your opinion seems to be that since you haven't met any, they don't exist. I will now ask you from where you got the necessary data to conclude that all negative entities are thought-forms. If you haven't met them, then really you can't logically make the conclusion either way that they're real or imaginary, and it is most certainly irresponsible of you to be spreading your
belief (as opposed to knowledge) around as if it is fact.
Your flawed logic can just as easily apply to the physical as well. I've met people who say they've never been in a fight in their entire lives; should they then conclude that violence doesn't exist?. Up until a few years ago I lived in a house all my life which had never been robbed; should I have then concluded that there was no one out there who would rob my house given the chance? Sure enough, I moved house and in the space of two years I've had around 6 successful and attempted burglaries.
I'm running out of examples, but basically I would like to know on what you are basing your conclusion, because right now it looks like an enormous assumption.
Quote from: CFTraveler on November 26, 2010, 12:04:08
Alan, here you are doing what you accuse Xanth of doing- which is call his conclusion "wrong" because you don't agree with it. Now mind you, I don't have a definite opinion on the objectivity or 'reality' of the neg thing- but I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it doesn't matter- to me- whether they are objectively real or not- I just use whatever arsenal works for me to get rid of the manifestations, whatever their cause.
I find that fighting about whether they're real or not is a waste of time, because it's a very personal thing, and no one's opinion is wrong for themselves.
Dig?
We are not fighting, we are exchanging information. Xanth has said in another topic that he doesn't mind being disagreed with or asked to elaborate on certain views of his.
I am not so much saying his conclusion is wrong (although I think it is wrong), but I am giving some very valid points on why his conclusion-making in this case is flawed, and I am offering some pretty solid evidence for that too.
Quote from: AlanRK on November 26, 2010, 12:07:41
I'm running out of examples, but basically I would like to know on what you are basing your conclusion, because right now it looks like an enormous assumption.
I base them, as I already said, on my experiences. But let's be honest here, what part of your belief that "negative entities" isn't an "enormous assumption" either?
It's not a knock on you or your beliefs... but I'm not exactly going to take you at your word either. Neither will you ever catch me saying that someone elses beliefs are wrong.
So we're really left at square one: To agree to disagree. :)
Quote from: Xanth on November 26, 2010, 12:28:47
I base them, as I already said, on my experiences. But let's be honest here, what part of your belief that "negative entities" isn't an "enormous assumption" either?
It's not a knock on you or your beliefs... but I'm not exactly going to take you at your word either. Neither will you ever catch me saying that someone elses beliefs are wrong.
My "belief" isn't a belief at all; I've had uncountable experience to back up my conclusion, as well as correlating experiences with dozens of others projectors and sources on astral projection, as well as common sense. I do not wish to entertain beliefs as I am not a religious person.
And again, you aren't basing it off your experiences because you've already said that you have no experience of negative entities. You are basing it off the fact that you have had no experience with negative entities, which is in itself a fallacy. You have taken it one step further, though, by assuming that all negative entities are self-created thought forms. I am asking; from where did THIS conclusion arise? Because it obviously cannot be born from experience, as we have already established you have no experience of negative entities. The only logical conclusion here is that you, yourself, have had no experience with negative entities in the astral. Further conclusions like; negative entities do not objectively exist, they are not independant beings, and they are thought forms are all either assumptions, or conclusions drawn from something other than your experience. Thus far it only appears to be the former.
Quote from: Xanth on November 26, 2010, 12:28:47So we're really left at square one: To agree to disagree. :)
Well... No. I did just list a variety of points which I used to question your conclusion. You did not attempt to address those points even slightly, and I have seen no answer to them from your perspective in previous posts of yours, nor have you gone into the level of elaboration which I went into even on your blog. You certainly can ignore those points if you wish, but if you aren't up to explaining your views when scrutinized under common logic, then you really should think twice about reciting them as if they are fact. This is not about being confident in your own beliefs, this is about how you present your beliefs to others, especially with the knowledge that people can absorb them unwittingly and allow themselves to be influenced by them. Speaking in absolutes is rarely ever a productive line that encourages genuine investigation.
You did indicate in an earlier post that you didn't mind disagreement and that you would gladly elaborate when asked. If I had known you weren't going to do that then I wouldn't have wasted my time typing out several paragraphs like this only to be ignored. I am not annoyed, just please let me know in future if you do not wish to pursue a certain topic as it saves us both time. Just like in lawful scrutiny, however, inferences can be picked up on through silence, and often it says more than an elaboration would have.
I too don't see my "beliefs" as such. To me they are 100% KNOWNS... just like yours are to you. :)
QuoteI am asking; from where did THIS conclusion arise?
And I responded... "From my experiences".
I'm not going to bother pointing out all the flaws in your post, because it just does not matter.
As I said, you either agree with my belief, or you don't... I'm not gonna waste time, as you have (and admitted to) in trying to sway the belief or opinion of someone else. That's not why I'm here. :)
Do you understand now, why it doesn't matter?
Quote from: Xanth on November 26, 2010, 13:32:40
I too don't see my "beliefs" as such. To me they are 100% KNOWNS... just like yours are to you. :)
And I responded... "From my experiences".
I'm not going to bother pointing out all the flaws in your post, because it just does not matter.
As I said, you either agree with my belief, or you don't... I'm not gonna waste time, as you have (and admitted to) in trying to sway the belief or opinion of someone else. That's not why I'm here. :)
Do you understand now, why it doesn't matter?
I have never at any point said I am wanting to sway the belief or opinion of someone else. <- It's as simple as that to point out a flaw in a post. I do not think you aren't doing it because it doesn't matter. If information doesn't matter, then why bother communicating? Communication is about exchanging information, after all.
I am still not interested in changing your belief, but what I, and seemingly a few others, are picking up on is a theme of you presenting your highly presumptious beliefs as if they are true. I have stated at least three times how this can severely impact people who are just looking for genuine, solid information to go about their methods. This thread is one such example; you made assumptions about the topic maker and their experience which is quite uncalled for. Although I don't value such a thing, the information underneath your username on this forum can give the illusion of authority and knowledge to newcomers to the astral. Whether you acknowledge it or not you are seen as a reliable source of information by some. Giving out information which you convey with absolute certainty is reckless, pure and simple. And I think I have more than demonstrated how your conclusion-drawing skills are just not up to scratch. I have asked for you to explain and elaborate on your viewpoint on this topic several times, and I gave you many angles from which to do this. You haven't done so, so I hope it proves to at least those who would otherwise take your words as reliable that they are less-than-so, even if it does not seem to get through to you yourself.
*sigh*
Enjoy flogging your dead horse. :)
*edit: I've re-added my little disclaimer to my sig... apparently people can't tell the difference between belief and fact... so, it's still required. :)
so, would the proper protocol be to preface every single post with "this is my opinion based on my experience which makes it absolute truth in my reality"?
i haven't actually read the discussion that's going down here, but this has been a problem in the past. people look at things other people say as them being presumptuous and pretentious, but it's really not the case. for that person, at that time, the statement is their absolute truth, what more can you say?
In my case, I've never really come across anything I would label "evil", but I've come across beings that aren't all "good" either. Seeing that there are beings that exist in the astral, and there are evil/bad people in the physical, I'm not going to rule the possibilities of bad/evil astral beings. I'm sure there is a LOT that happens outside of my realm of experience.
Quote from: personalreality on November 26, 2010, 14:47:53
so, would the proper protocol be to preface every single post with "this is my opinion based on my experience which makes it absolute truth in my reality"?
i haven't actually read the discussion that's going down here, but this has been a problem in the past. people look at things other people say as them being presumptuous and pretentious, but it's really not the case. for that person, at that time, the statement is their absolute truth, what more can you say?
Sorry but I do not buy into the "a persons beliefs are true for them" crap. Yes, it is true for them, but of what relevance is that? Objective reality trumps all of that. I don't see why one would even bother to pursue any sort of knowledge or information if they're just going to submit themselves to the belief that they're living in their own personal reality. Why bother to astral project if you're just going to have the attitude that it's all a (very elaborate) dream? It's obvious that we are living in dimensions with laws attached to them, try and apply a "personal reality" theory here practically in the physical and see how well that works out. It's more convincing in the astral, but by no means is it anything close to a rule.
And yes, the proper protocol in most cases is to just say something simple like "In my opinion...", "I think that...", "It's possible that...". The first one even has an internet acronym for it, it doesn't get much simpler than that.
Xanth: Good that you've added a disclaimer. At least that's something. You earlier told me that you don't mind being disagreed with and that you don't mind open discussion. You seem to have become exasperated for some reason, when all I asked was for you to present some logical evidence-based points. I can see now that you lied about being open to discussion, and as a result I wasted several paragraphs worth of typing. Please do not lie to me again, as I do not like lies.
i Kicked a Gnome :lol:
Quote from: Stookie on November 26, 2010, 15:04:45
In my case, I've never really come across anything I would label "evil", but I've come across beings that aren't all "good" either. Seeing that there are beings that exist in the astral, and there are evil/bad people in the physical, I'm not going to rule the possibilities of bad/evil astral beings. I'm sure there is a LOT that happens outside of my realm of experience.
Don't forget Palin, she's pure evil. :-D
Ahhhhhh this discussion takes me back....I believe I have grown since then. I think this little tete'tete could have been avoided had Xanth simply answered the questions.
Quote from: AlanRK on November 26, 2010, 15:34:53
Xanth: Good that you've added a disclaimer. At least that's something. You earlier told me that you don't mind being disagreed with and that you don't mind open discussion. You seem to have become exasperated for some reason, when all I asked was for you to present some logical evidence-based points. I can see now that you lied about being open to discussion, and as a result I wasted several paragraphs worth of typing. Please do not lie to me again, as I do not like lies.
*sigh*
The question was fully answered... just because you didn't like the response is not my problem.
It's the only answer you're getting, because it's the only answer that matters.
As for lying... wtf?
I'm sorry you felt that I lied to you... but you and I know that's not the case.
If you wish to attempt to point out otherwise, please do.
I've always said I don't mind people disagreeing with me. Disagree with me all you want. :) It doesn't change my beliefs at all.
Now, what I did say was that I'd elaborate
when I chose to and I saw no reason to elaborate in this thread. So obviously you only saw what you wanted to see.
EDIT: On second thought, I'm gonna leave this open for now.
Quote from: Xanth on November 26, 2010, 16:25:12The question was fully answered...
Then it has already been fully demonstrated to be a fallacy.
Too lazy to read the whole thread but i cant understand what's going on. Everyone is entitled to there opinion and belief and freedom to express/share it as much as they want to. If you dont like what that person has to say without getting into something nasty, just take it with a grain of salt and ignore it or block it out.
I don't always agree with Xanth that entity's we may encounter are just subconscious fluff. But at least he stays true to himself if he says he doesn't believe then think in his perspective, if Negs to HIM existed then they would come to him whether he DID believe in them or NOT. There's really not much left to argue. This is worse then arguing religion where you cant even prove anything to the other person all it comes down to is "My Book says this and your book says the opposite." It cant occur to them that they both MIGHT be wrong.
What it comes down to is you can NEVER prove something to another person unless they were in your shoes, and vice versa. Maybe that's just how the subconscious works, in a way it interacts with you maybe in perspective it is only suppose to make sense to YOU. Everyone's subconscious do speak different 'languages'.
I really doubt the disclaimer is necessary. If it was then everyone should put it in there sigs. Fair is Fair.
Quote from: AlanRK on November 26, 2010, 17:56:25
Then it has already been fully demonstrated to be a fallacy.
Wow dude...
Do you act like this on every forum you visit?
Ask a question... then when someone doesn't answer to YOUR satisfaction, you start calling them a liar and then outright attack their beliefs? Calling them lies and fallacies?
You certainly are a piece of work.
I have given you nothing but respect for you and your beliefs since your first post, and you've done nothing but belittle me and mine.
I'm sorry you feel you have to act that way... if you can't post here with respect, don't post at all please.
QuoteI really doubt the disclaimer is necessary. If it was then everyone should put it in there sigs. Fair is Fair.
I agree wholeheartedly. :)