Oh really now? Wow, you said it "the truth' well ill be damned! I better listen to Sctt859 instead of my own experiences, so, all those experiences buy the likes of Rob Monroe, ober's, people who have had NDE's, and have seen things that where verified to be true, they too where dreaming huh? Sure.... you see people think the dream occurs within the brain, which is not true, all dreams, both lucid and non lucid happen out side the body, objective reality is not what it seems, oh heaven and hell you say...right.
O.K. now I want you to prove to me that OBE are dreams. You provide me the proof and I will accept your conclusion and not believe, else don't close your mind and require concrete and physical proof that it's not a venture to the spiritual realm. I have questioned this myself in the past that it all might be a dream. You need to have an open mind and understand something of quantum physics and the true nature of the universe. I think at death the exit will be incredible. We are perhaps just peaking through the door here. Still smiling.
Here is my proof of why oobe could possible be a more controlled dream. What is a dream?? does any one really know? Can you or any one here tell me a dream is the real spiritual realm? When we dream and sleep we get energy better then if we have a oobe because in a oobe we use are real life energy to make the oobe happen, so in a dream we dont use any energy we just do it our selves so we lose consiousness of what is really happening to our bodies. So in other words, Your body is like a car. It can be drivin like a stick or a automatic. When we have a "oobe" we are making our bodies have dreams using it as a we use a stick in a car making us have more awareness of what happpens during the process of developing a dream.
Now in a automatic dream state, we just go to sleep close our eyes and lose consiousness. During the process of dreaming do we know if are phyisical bodies are paralized or vibrating no we dont know because we are not aware in this matter. WHo are we in a dream and who are we in a oobe. In a dream i cant be controlling my phyisical body i must be controlling a spirit or such. in a oobe im doing the same thing. So all this research makes me beleve all a oobe is more of a controlled dream. How can you prove its not?
Ill be honest, that made absolutely no sense what's so ever, so when one is out and they feel just as they are, they see thing, able to think just as they are 'awake' but there dreaming, according to you any way, right, go read some books on Robert Monroe, his first one is a good one, also read Rob Bruces books, good stuff, oh btw, if your interested in proving its real, prove it your self to your self, there's lot of cases that have been recorded down with verification, go look for em.
Im not saying iam right and im not saying the others are wrong. Robert and the rest of the guys dont have a clue of what the spirit realm is. They are just making guesses of what it can be. ALso why is it we have to be relaxed almost in a sleep like state to tap into the spirit realm. If they wernt dreams, we could command are spirits to do it when ever we want. I mean last time i checked it is my spirit. Why must my physical form must be lost first. I give credit to robert and the rest of the crew to try to come up with what i call theories on what the spirital realm is. THus every one is intitled to their own opionion. My opionion is that a oobe is a more controlled dream. They say in a oobe you can fly into another room in your house see a shoe on the window seal go back to the physical world and see the same shoe there.
But yet in the dream realm i can see something happening in the dream in which it happens exactly in the future. Even if oobes and dreams are different. There is a link there connecting both of them and that link is being completly over looked by robert and the others.
Have you ever met anyone in the Astral? It is a real mind opening experience. Keep trying AP until you do and then decide.
i meet people in a dream to and say to my self damn i wish i could meet them again. If you control your dream you will see lil to no difference between that and a OOBe.
i am talking about having the clarity of being completely awake and having someone come up and start up a conversation. Not a vague dream conversation that you can somewhat remember but a conversation that you will never forget.
my experiences with lucid dreams and obe's are VERY different, you must experience it to know both the differences.
Ive experenced both. thought i never talk to any one in the ap, like i said there is no difference the only differnce in a oobe is that you see your self going through the dream instead of it happening automatically. Once you control the dream and the around setencing then everything is clear and real to you.
yes, there is no difrence...to you, to others, different story.
I have had the Lucid dreams too. But the first time I had a true AP and encountered Astral people scared the hell out of me. I actially demanded they keep away from me. They said O.K., they just wanted to talk and walked away annoyed. I was actially afraid to sleep the following night. If it was not for the intelligent people I have met a few times I would doubt the reality of the OBE.
how come we last longer in a dream then in a oobe?? its cause the dream is just a eaiser way to oobe. we lose energy in a oobe is because we dream it and before we dream it we use up so much energy going into a fantasy world which really is the stick way of going into a dream. Face it guys i have more proof that a oobe is a dream then it isnt a dream.
Can you guys give me any facts or proofs that a oobe isnt a dream? instead of the talk thing. I can easily talk to people in a dream that seems just as real as a oobe. Maybe even more real then in the phyisical realm. And in a dream and oobe you feel. Most important similarty is fear. We fear in dreams such as we do in a oobe.
Oh really lets hear your 'proof' i have heard of some one who could stay out of his body for hours, more then 6 hours in fact, Rob monroes experiences also lasted hours at times, you know, you say its the truth, as if you know every thing, sorry dude, but that reeks of arrogance, in fact any one claiming to know the truth and every one else is 'wrong' is realy just plain old arrogant.
I wish we were in the Astral and I asked you to prove to me that the physical world exsisted. If it is possible for there to be life after death, then we must have souls and if we do who is to say what the soul is capible of in the physical. Read the bible and the accounts of OBE written about by Ezekiel, Danial and Paul. Do you thing the perdictions given to then by God were just Dreams. The Church even acknowledged the reality.
ROB Monroe says this and he says that. Ol robby boy also writes a book and prolly makes a lot of money off this too. 6 hours is nothing compared to a dream. [8)] if you ask me ive been telling you all my proof so lets hear what your proof is, stop using robbie as an example aand tell me your oobe experence that is so differnt then a dream. Can you die in a dream can you die in a oobe, do you return to the physical state in both realms? Are both realms achieved by a unconsious state? I can keep going on how dreams and oobes are the same can you tell me why they are different? besides one takes more awarness to achieve then the other? [;)]
And boats, i beleve in life after death. The only True oobe occurs when the body totally dies and the brain also dies releasing the mind totally. Making the oobe you beleve in and the dreams vanquish for ever and in this new state we reach a new level of spiritualness
Also boats you said something about predictions.. i dont remember any one able to tell the future in a oobe. Usually you hear people saying they dreamt of something happening in a dream and it came to past in the real life. I never heard of this happening in a oobe. If you ask me The dream is the true spiritual realm in which all are answers are givin before us we just need to solve the dream to find out the answer. Kind of like a multiple choice test.
Rob Monroe no longer resides in this realm, fine two fine examples of my proof, experience one: this happened in the early days, I had projected into my parents room and saw my mother asleep by her self, i noticed my dad wasnt there, i noticed how the sheets had moved, i returned to my body, afterwards i went to my parents room and saw just had i seen, dad not there, mum asleep on the right side, the sheets moved to how i seen, and no pre knowledge, experience two: projected into yard, saw my dad in the corner staring at the flowers in the right corner, noted his shirt, pants and shoes, awoke verified, i asked him if he was staring at the flowers before, yes was his answer, right a dream is just a projection with subconcious image over load, during the night you might see loads of astral sleep walkers in this realm or astral realms in a sleep like state creating dream scenarios, dont know about your die in a dream or obe state as i have never died in one, and please, use your spell check.
I will only mention the Bible once more as I do not want to bring religion into any of this. What do you think happened to Paul on the Island of Patmos when he was lifted up in the spirit and given signs.
I knew someone was going to mention spell check soon. Keep smiling.
i agree with manuel toatly there is such a thing as an obe and it is not a dream it is an obe so get it right sctt859!
sorry if this offends you
[:)][:D][8D]
"use your spell check" I would just like to say even the simplist of human minds can make out even the hardest typo, science had proved it.
Ok ok, i will also agree in a oobe state i can see my room totally as it is in the physical realm, but as i stated before you are not letting your body do the sleeping for you, you are letting your mind do all the work. Like i set a example about the cars, You drive a car they can come in two forms, a stick and a automatic. Driving a stick is much harder and driving a automatic is much easier. Driving a stick is like having a oobe, Its hard to learn but once you learn it its a much different experence then a automatic.
But stick and automatic have still the same function and that function is to make the car go. Now we go to oobe and dreaming when you let your mind do all the work things get so unclear and using all your energy you will not be aware of you losing so much energy you will see somethign right before you go to sleep and since you used so much energy your brain cant focus on images then other what your brain has seen last. So instead of creating its own image it iwll just create the last saved thing it remembers jotting down. So the last thing you see is your room, so when you wake up out of the dream/oobe you will be thinking to your self, Damn i seen all the exact stuff as when i had my oobe.
But acctually, your brain is sending you the last known image since its low on energy, but now that your in your sleep and your brain can store more energy you can now go to and create different places.
Also pauls spirit was lifted by the will of god, Paul was not practicing oobes.
St Paul was in intense meditation and fasting, it you continue to read posts here you will find this can cause OBE. Also on your behafe "Benjamin Franklin" stated that it's a small mind that can only think of one way to spell the same word.
Again i dont want to make any enemies on this board, I just want to post my theory on what a oobe can possible be. No one really knows for sure, its like asking the square root of a million [:D]
St paul? are you catholic because iam christian and the only way it seemed to achieve god is by prayer and or having a good life and faith then dyign to meet god in the eternal after life.
Sctt859, I'm sorry but I also have to disagree with you as i have, on a number of occasions, gone straight in to a lucid dream from being awake.
There are no Projection symptoms or feelings or anything, you simply move 'in' to the dream (or so i have experienced).
I see dreams as ventures in to the subconcious mind, and OBEs as venture away from the physical body and realm.
Sctt you say that you are providing us with proof... yet i don't see any proof at all in what you're saying.
Noone ever said there wasn't a link between dreams and OBEs, infact i recall hearing it a number of times.
Sorry to disagree, but you havn't changed my point of view on this at all, you have no proof.
Good luck.
Im not trying to change any ones P.o.v on this topic, its like making them change their religon. What i mean is that guy that told me they saw their dad or parents in their oobe did they tell you when they woke up that they saw you?? The true spirit can not leave the body until both the brain and the body are unconsious and that is not possible until we die.
OObes are just another level of a dream. Another realm of a dream not another realm of a spirit realm.
Since were talking of people of the past i would like to mention the native american, Sitting bull. Who DREAMT not had a oobe of custards troops invading wounded knee.
Read what you wrote. The TRUE SPIRIT can not leave the body. We do not say our Soul leaves but a projection of Consciousness to the Astral realm. Most times this consciousness is only projected to the dream body a sleep state. The OBE is when the consciouness is transfured to the Lower Astral or Highter Planes. P.S. Read Seth material.
Ok but no matter what we can not leave the first realm. No possible way even through a projection. We can only reach the second realm through death. Even in the bible it mentions other worlds and realms. The bible never mentioned we can jounry through these realms by means of projection. as the phyisical realm has realms so does the sleep/dream realm and i beleve a oobe is another branch realm off the dream realm not the phyisical.
Wow... all the sudden Scott is the guru of oobes?
Tell me this Scott, if oobe's are nothing more than a dream that is inside your mind, how do people see things that they could have not known before hind while oobeing and confirm them to be true later? I can't do that inside my mind, but I can outside.
How do you explain the time that Bruce saw someone oobeing right in front of him while he was meditating, realized it was the guy over in the next room, then went over and confirmed the encounter right after?
Let me repeat this. Robert Bruce saw someone else OUTSIDE of their body and confirmed it with that person minutes later. End of story. The guy was out of his body.
Explain how that could happen with your theory. And if it's RBruce does it for money, then you are just weasling out.
I think you believe but want the physical proof of the spiritial world. The OBE is subjective. The proof will be of your continued input to this forum.
You guys are just restating the same questions i have been answering. I told you when you see the thing in a oobe that you can see later is that your mind stores the last thing it has seen when you lose energy. When practicing a oobe it takes up so much energy that the mind only can now reach this realm of where it will project the only thing it sees before you shut down. In other words ive been trying to project all night and i finnally get it, now to get there you must use alot of energy.
Now i dont let my body go to sleep for me iam manully doing it which requires more energy. So now the brain can not function properly so it will project everything you last saw in the physical realm instead of creating its own image. This is were a oobe takes place.
There are many realms in dreaming too. Only realms i came across are
The day dream, The unconsious dream , the blank dream and the oobe also the sleep walk.
another thing how can you explain if i dream of something in adream and it comes true later that day??
in my view an oobe is like the wind can you see the wind? no. but you know its there because you can feel and know that its there i myself have had oobes and they for sure were not dreams because they showed me something i could have never known if it was all in my head but then i saw it then i knew and it verified too
[:)][:D][8D]
Hows this i will say i fell asleep and saw my friend oobe infront of me i wright a book about it and then you can pay me money.
drinsonomo i dont crack down on peoples opionons but what you just said made me realize there is no such thing as oobe and possibly made me gave up on humanity. Oobe is there it is real iam not denying it what iam saying is it is more of a offspring to the dream realm then it is to any thing then the spiritual realm.
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
You guys are just restating the same questions i have been answering. I told you when you see the thing in a oobe that you can see later is that your mind stores the last thing it has seen when you lose energy. When practicing a oobe it takes up so much energy that the mind only can now reach this realm of where it will project the only thing it sees before you shut down. In other words ive been trying to project all night and i finnally get it, now to get there you must use alot of energy.
No I'm not. Look closely. The person saw something in an oobe they didn't previously see and had no knowledge of seeing. I.e., the projecter in the Robert Bruce example saw Robert Bruce wave at him. Robert Bruce really did wave at him. There's no way the projecter could have known that Robert Bruce waved at him unless he was out of his body at the time. Similarly, there's no way an AWAKE Robert Bruce could have seen the projecter in a different room than the projecter was sleeping unless he was out of his body.
Lemme say it one more time. Robert Bruce, who was not sleeping, saw the projector who was "sleeping" in the next room over, come through the wall. Robert waved at him. A minute later Robert walked over and found out that the guy really did see Robert wave at him.
So again, how could Robert (who was not asleep) see a projecter come through the wall if the projector can't actually leave his body?
hows this? i would not buy the book because i would want to see it myself...
[:)][:D][8D]
Can you explain then how I have projected from my friends home to my bedroom 20 miles away, viewed my bedroom for 2 minutes and told myself to return to my body. This has happened several times without the intention to project. Also are you disguarding Remote Viewing as false. Various governments spend hundreds of millions on this type AP every year.
and also a very good point blackstream i agree with you 100%
[:)][:D][8D]
"No I'm not. Look closely. The person saw something in an oobe they didn't previously see and had no knowledge of seeing. I.e., the projecter in the Robert Bruce example saw Robert Bruce wave at him. Robert Bruce really did wave at him. There's no way the projecter "ould have known that Robert Bruce waved at him unless he was out of his body at the time. Similarly, there's no way an AWAKE Robert Bruce could have seen the projecter in a different room than the projecter was sleeping unless he was out of his body.
Lemme say it one more time. Robert Bruce, who was not sleeping, saw the projector who was "sleeping" in the next room over, come through the wall. Robert waved at him. A minute later Robert walked over and found out that the guy really did see Robert wave at him.
So again, how could Robert (who was not asleep) see a projecter come through the wall if the projector can't actually leave his body?"
Black come on now. Heres where ima hit you with a one two.. how is it possible that robert had acctually seen this person in the phystical realm. When the projector was in another realm? If its true robert saw the projector then it blows the theory of other realms out of the water. WHen we project we no longer stay in the Physical realm. Only the projector could have seen robert, robert cant see the projector.
Unless i personally see robert fly to my house with xray vision saying hes superman, wait, how much do roberts books sell for again??
Another thing I see hundreds of posts of people attempting to AP. I have done it and sometimes I don't like it. Robert Monroe wrote a word of caution about OBE in one of his books that to stop attempts if you are not sure you want to do this because it's a door that can not be closed.
yes BOATS governments do spend tons of money on ap but tell me this where did you get your info its supposed to be top secret
[:)][:D][8D]
So that means the projector robert saw never left the phyisical realm thatthe spirit he saw was still in the phyisical realm?? how is this possible?
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
Black come on now. Heres where ima hit you with a one two.. how is it possible that robert had acctually seen this person in the phystical realm. When the projector was in another realm? If its true robert saw the projector then it blows the theory of other realms out of the water. WHen we project we no longer stay in the Physical realm. Only the projector could have seen robert, robert cant see the projector.
And here's where I do a counter of your one two! Robert Bruce was playing around with Real Time Sight at the time. As in, he can see through his eyelids into the astral around him. While he's still conscious. I've done it before, I know it's possible.
Doh? Next question? Before you say Robert was dreaming or something, don't forget, the projector also confirmed his experiences meaning, they both saw each other meaning it was a shared experience meaning it couldn't be just a dream.
No, I don't believe I stated that Remote Viewing is Top Secret.
Hum AP makes the goverment and psychics and all these wierd people money.. thats why they wont tell you the truth that a oobe is another bracnch of the beddy byes. Here il make a simple chart for you to show you the layers of both dream world and phyisical realm.
Falling asleep - which branches to - dreams or oobe depending on how much energy you use. Sleep can also branch into a Non existent realm in which you use so much energy your brain has just stop focusing on creating images so you have no dreams no oobe you just black out and restore energy.
Now we come to the phyisical realm we have - Daydream / trance to death to what i like to think is the real spirit realm.
Spirit realm - soul dispatches to heaven or hell.
Now i finally counter your counter with the power punch. How about sleep walking. We can walk and focus while being unconcious. Thus this is another realm of sleep. Sleep has so many secrets and branches that it would take 100 life times to uncover all the secrets. Sleep walking in which i find more interesting then oobe. A guy acctually drove to his brothers house perfectly which was like 30 miles while being unconcious.
well good night everyone its 2:25 am here i will watch this post for 5 more minutes good night folks
[:)][:D][8D]
You're also forgetting that people can experience dreams and obes at the same time... shadow memories or something like that.
Sctt, it would make this board a much more comfortable place again if you were to leave.
Sorry to be harsh, but with the way you're going you are bringing very bad energy to a place that certainly does not need it.
Now we have sleep branch - dream - sleep walking to - oobe. i beleve in a oobe we are dreaming and seeing around the area of our homes while walking and being uncounsious then we pounce back into our original sleep spot (the pull back of a oobe.) Sleep comes in many forms and a oobe is just an advance form of sleep while dreaming is the basics.
Syke or is it that i maybe comming to a conclusion to what a oobe is. iam not posting any thing negitive. Iam just saying what a oobe could possible be. I never doubt it could be spiritual but imo i think its more close to the dream realm. If more people started posting there ideas to what a obe really is and what they beleve it is then maybe one day we will come closer and closer to the answer.
Syke the truth can be harsh some times. instead of facing up to some ones opionion you rather have them leave. Syke some one of your standers doesnt belong on a message board. A board is for opionions and disscussion not a one sided point of view which every one agrees on.
Yes this board is for discussions, not harsh arguments and anger, which is all you are bringing.
Now you can say anything you like as i am not going to waste anymore energy reading your posts, i just hope you smarten up or leave, we've had a problem here very similar to you in the past.
syke why dont you just cancel your registration because me and the fellow apers were having a interesting disscussion here and no one here was arguing you were just trying to add flames to the fire. Please remove your self from these boards.
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
Now i finally counter your counter with the power punch. How about sleep walking. We can walk and focus while being unconcious. Thus this is another realm of sleep. Sleep has so many secrets and branches that it would take 100 life times to uncover all the secrets. Sleep walking in which i find more interesting then oobe. A guy acctually drove to his brothers house perfectly which was like 30 miles while being unconcious.
I don't know about you, but when I sleep walk I don't fly and float through walls : )
What you said wasn't really a counter, just more like... "Okay Ap is boring, what about sleep walking?"
Ok maybe i said it wrong but what iam really trying to say is if sleep walking is a branch of dreaming/sleeping then why cant a oobe be too??
Would it not be smarter to believe the OBE to be real and years from now come to the conclution it's a dream then to come to a conclution so fast, loose hope and give up. You are giving up and perhaps missing out on what you could discover years from now to be real. People have devoted years or there whole life to growing spritually and it does not come over night.
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
Ok maybe i said it wrong but what iam really trying to say is if sleep walking is a branch of dreaming/sleeping then why cant a oobe be too??
Because when you sleepwalk you are still inside your body, unconscious, being controled by your subconcious. When you Oobe, you are no longer inside your body. As a matter of fact you are also quite conscious.
The difference is, dreams have you inside your mind and oobes have you outside. Although some people believe that dreams are just oobes without the realization (i.e., dreams take place outside your body too).
you dont understand though. If our soul leaves are body it is because were dead. If our soul/spirit wanted to excape the earth wouldnt it do so and never plop back into the phyisical form. It is siad that our bodies are the souls prison. It is never to be let out till we lose all consiousness in mind and body. I beleved in oobes too but then i got to thinking what would happen if dreams had other realms too.
I mean the dream can be a real place to our soul visits how do we know??
Maybe there is a advance realm to the oobe too. SLeep is just like the ocean. It will take life times to uncover all its secrets and limits.
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
you dont understand though. If our soul leaves are body it is because were dead. If our soul/spirit wanted to excape the earth wouldnt it do so and never plop back into the phyisical form. It is siad that our bodies are the souls prison. It is never to be let out till we lose all consiousness in mind and body. I beleved in oobes too but then i got to thinking what would happen if dreams had other realms too.
If you had read Robert Bruces book you would have seen his explaination about how we can leave our body. Our souls don't actually completely leave. We go through a process called splitting ourselves where we become in effect two people. One stays behind in the body, the other goes off adventuring for awhile. Usually the one that stays behind falls asleep and has dreams, while the one that goes ahead has astral adventures. When the adventurer returns and becomes one again with the soul, memories are integrated into one.
Robert Bruce btw has also verified this theory by looking at himself. He projected and looked at his body and both his projected double and the one that stayed behing in his body looking around with real time sight saw each other and both had a separate set of memories for awhile until they reintegrated.
Lets not forget also there are hidden realms in the phyisical realm too such as bremuda triangle. And no other realm has more realms then outer space its self.
I also beleve oobes ar not meant to be practiced. Somethings are best learned off of when the time is right and having a oobe by accident is forgivinged but making the soul leave the body at will seems like you are doign something against god.
Oh, and I just thought I'd mention that other people on these forums have reproduced this and looked at themselves while projecting and gotten the same results. You most definately are in two places at once in spirit. Weird but true.
Sctt859 . You need to read, listen, think and slowdown. You need to take a long walk by a lake and reflect. I don't know how to tell you but Earth does exsist, The universe is Real and there is a God. I don't know why we are spiritial beings except we are like childred growing all the time. The OBE is real and you will find this out if you stick it out. This info is for you and anyone reading posts here that may have doubts. Keep smiling.
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
I also beleve oobes ar not meant to be practiced. Somethings are best learned off of when the time is right and having a oobe by accident is forgivinged but making the soul leave the body at will seems like you are doign something against god.
Mine telling me where God said thou shalt not astral project? If he gave me the ability to naturally project (sometimes even by accident!) and said nothing about whether or not I should, I think it's alright.
Brainwaves and tempurature . . . that's why. While in an OBE, you don't really have all of that goody stuff going on, which helps you with the whole depression and everything. Really now, if you want to get into it, where's the proof that you exist. Are you really there, or just some misc. computer virus that had hacked its way into these boards and currupted the way people are starting to think? What's all this proof you're giving . . . 'cause, frankly, none if it is making any sense. Listen to yourself for a moment and think about what you're writing. I don't have any experiences with OBEs, 'cause I'm a slow learner and haven't gotten around to even trying to have one, although I do know some people who try/have accomplished them. Scientific study, somewhere out there, I am certain, will show you that the difference between the OBEs and the dreams are completely different. While dreaming, you have a temperature control, which tells you how long to sleep and everything, and in an OBE you don't, so you can go, I want back in my body, and you can go back there and get out of it. You could probably turn this around somehow by restating some of the carp you stated earlier, but how exactly can you think that an OBE is some form of a dream.
Hmm, aren't you the one who's trying to take over the astral world? [:O] He's only trying to get to us so that we'll have all these thoughts and doubts and be able to do things, and all sorts of carp.
Anyway, back to upness . . .
You're saying that you're wanting proof, and you're giving this "proof" and saying that some people's proofs aren't really proving anything. What I'm seeing is that their proofs and your proofs are pretty much the same thing, and depending on how you look upon it, you can draw your conclusion. A sway of the mind. Back and forth. [xx(] I've made myself dizzy.
What's pulsation? Is it a form of vibration? A mind trick? Could it possible be just my mind telling me that I need to go to sleep . . . [|)] yes . . . sleep! sleeep! . . . I SAID GO TO SLEEP! Is hypnotism some estranged form of an OBE that the mind goes into a sort of shock or something that you become in a state where things can be said to you and they'll be programmed into you . . . [:(!] You made me puffy!
Now I'm a contradictor here, so I'm going back and forth . . . A theorist . . . hehe I'll find myself back in a moment . . . Somebody earlier, not in this topical thingy, had stated something about premonitions and such really being telepathic messages going into the mind and carp, so why can't Sctt be right about what he's saying? If what's really going on is that magnetic waves are being transferred through a telepathical state that our mind decides to wander off into this place or that without our physical/spiritual body.
Oh, and Sctt, you say that your spirit can't leave the body until you're dead . . . read revelations . . . how d'ya think he still lived afterwards?
Ooh, I'm back. All right, not saying that you're duplicating your spirit is another thing. If, in fact in an OBE, you can create things, which not a duplication of your spirit, or of your body that nobody else can see, unless they're astrally there and carp.
Yes, I do believe he's just trying to gain control of the astral!
[:P] I'M INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Blackstream
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
you dont understand though. If our soul leaves are body it is because were dead. If our soul/spirit wanted to excape the earth wouldnt it do so and never plop back into the phyisical form. It is siad that our bodies are the souls prison. It is never to be let out till we lose all consiousness in mind and body. I beleved in oobes too but then i got to thinking what would happen if dreams had other realms too.
If you had read Robert Bruces book you would have seen his explaination about how we can leave our body. Our souls don't actually completely leave. We go through a process called splitting ourselves where we become in effect two people. One stays behind in the body, the other goes off adventuring for awhile. Usually the one that stays behind falls asleep and has dreams, while the one that goes ahead has astral adventures. When the adventurer returns and becomes one again with the soul, memories are integrated into one.
Robert Bruce btw has also verified this theory by looking at himself. He projected and looked at his body and both his projected double and the one that stayed behing in his body looking around with real time sight saw each other and both had a separate set of memories for awhile until they reintegrated.
Then how come if this is true that dreams are more frequent and much more stable then a oobe is if we are the spirit. We should be the ones who fly and report about the spirit realm. Why is my spirit being controled by some one else if iam the one having the dream?? If me and my spirit or which ever is seperated. Then whos the real sctt859 me or the spirit? Am i just a dupe then?
quote:
Originally posted by ImmuredSoul
Brainwaves and tempurature . . . that's why. While in an OBE, you don't really have all of that goody stuff going on, which helps you with the whole depression and everything. Really now, if you want to get into it, where's the proof that you exist. Are you really there, or just some misc. computer virus that had hacked its way into these boards and currupted the way people are starting to think? What's all this proof you're giving . . . 'cause, frankly, none if it is making any sense. Listen to yourself for a moment and think about what you're writing. I don't have any experiences with OBEs, 'cause I'm a slow learner and haven't gotten around to even trying to have one, although I do know some people who try/have accomplished them. Scientific study, somewhere out there, I am certain, will show you that the difference between the OBEs and the dreams are completely different. While dreaming, you have a temperature control, which tells you how long to sleep and everything, and in an OBE you don't, so you can go, I want back in my body, and you can go back there and get out of it. You could probably turn this around somehow by restating some of the carp you stated earlier, but how exactly can you think that an OBE is some form of a dream.
Hmm, aren't you the one who's trying to take over the astral world? [:O] He's only trying to get to us so that we'll have all these thoughts and doubts and be able to do things, and all sorts of carp.
Anyway, back to upness . . .
You're saying that you're wanting proof, and you're giving this "proof" and saying that some people's proofs aren't really proving anything. What I'm seeing is that their proofs and your proofs are pretty much the same thing, and depending on how you look upon it, you can draw your conclusion. A sway of the mind. Back and forth. [xx(] I've made myself dizzy.
What's pulsation? Is it a form of vibration? A mind trick? Could it possible be just my mind telling me that I need to go to sleep . . . [|)] yes . . . sleep! sleeep! . . . I SAID GO TO SLEEP! Is hypnotism some estranged form of an OBE that the mind goes into a sort of shock or something that you become in a state where things can be said to you and they'll be programmed into you . . . [:(!] You made me puffy!
Now I'm a contradictor here, so I'm going back and forth . . . A theorist . . . hehe I'll find myself back in a moment . . . Somebody earlier, not in this topical thingy, had stated something about premonitions and such really being telepathic messages going into the mind and carp, so why can't Sctt be right about what he's saying? If what's really going on is that magnetic waves are being transferred through a telepathical state that our mind decides to wander off into this place or that without our physical/spiritual body.
Oh, and Sctt, you say that your spirit can't leave the body until you're dead . . . read revelations . . . how d'ya think he still lived afterwards?
Ooh, I'm back. All right, not saying that you're duplicating your spirit is another thing. If, in fact in an OBE, you can create things, which not a duplication of your spirit, or of your body that nobody else can see, unless they're astrally there and carp.
Yes, I do believe he's just trying to gain control of the astral!
[:P] I'M INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [;)]
Wow i dont know where to begin ok well start off with this... I never said dreams and oobes were the same thing i said a oobe is a advance formation of sleep. which will automatically make our bodies respond different then a oobe.
Also if your referring to HE as jesus well, Jesus wasnt 100% man was he??
SO iam awake why must i be unconsious to have a oobe?? why cant i have one when iam fully aware and wantto come out of my body. So to really have one i need to some how use or still be involved ith sleep. So even if it is spiritual. OObe is still a form of sleep.
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
Then how come if this is true that dreams are more frequent and much more stable then a oobe is if we are the spirit. We should be the ones who fly and report about the spirit realm. Why is my spirit being controled by some one else if iam the one having the dream?? If me and my spirit or which ever is seperated. Then whos the real sctt859 me or the spirit? Am i just a dupe then?
Some of this doesn't makes sense. Dreams are more frequent because we do them every night without effort, where as you have to make an effort to oobe, and even though you don't always succeed. I.e., you dream more than you project.
I never said anyone was controlling you, I said you were controlling yourself, however you are also in two places at once.
As for oobe's being more unstable than dreams, this question by definition assumes that oobe's exist and by asking this question you assume the reality that I'm trying to show, which was my goal.
And the reason why it's more unstable (even though my dreams are highly unstable) is because the astral reality is heavilty affected by thought. Your thoughts are bad enough in affecting the environment, but when you toss in everyone else's thoughts, it can make for a rather chaotic universe. At least in the rtz. In astral proper I think aping is supposed to be more stable than most dreams.
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
Also if your referring to HE as jesus well, Jesus wasnt 100% man was he??
[xx(] I'm referring to john . . .
sorry, i was trying to type fast to get it through . . . I meant how do you think he was in spirit form and then not anymore afterwards . . .?
First I want to start with what you said that projection (oobe's) are going against god. I will forget the god part though (I have my own beliefs), since childhood we were conditioned by school,parents,church to believe that the physical is all there is till we physically die. The child that has an obe, or sees a spirit is told that it was only a dream when the child is crying into his/her mothers arms. Once in the "conditioned state" the young person lets go of all the experiences he/she has had and forgets them as fast as one forgets dreams upon awakening. The reason oobe's are so common amongst children is because as adults we already went through the conditioning of the physical.
As for proof, lol he wants proof, I suggest you stop looking at all the popular books, and popular experiments as the charles tart Mr. X (monroe), miss z accounts. Look for the ones that were never really popular such as the ingo swann, and especially the alex tanous experiments in 1978. Alex T. claimed to have oobe's so he was put to the test. In another room or building a scientist set up a device that produced an optical illusion for one to see the illusion or target one would have to be eye level in front of this device. At eyelevel of the device they hooked up vibration/motion sensors. The first few trials alex told the scientists that he has successfully been in the room with the target but realized his projected self wasnt tall enough to be eyelevel with the device. Slightly confused to his explaination the scientists obliged with placing a stepping stool in front of the device.
Within the next trials it took a turn for the better. Alex Tanous correctly identified the illusion (target) over and over again and each time he successfully identified the target the motion/vibration sensors readouts were positive for movement each and everytime. At the end of the trials he correctly identified the target 114 times out of 197 (which also includes when there was no stepping stool in front of the device) and out of those 114 times he correctly identified the target each and everytime the sensors were positive for movement/vibrations every time, and the times he couldnt get eye level the them (the sensors)the readouts shown significantly less movement/vibrations. That should be enough proof for anyone, but even presented with actual physical proof still no one would believe so the studies were just forgotten. So I guess the moral is stop trying to prove things to people that are never going to believe even if they see it with their own eyes.
Dont take my word for it, go ahead and do a search online for the experiments (I have the results in a book but I am sure they are online some where).
Studies of this kind werent held after this for some reason it just was forgotten and I guess it never occured to try this again especially with all the better technology that is out. Whether this is good enough for you or not is up to you. I believe that you never experienced a projection yourself, when you project you will know it is real and no one will ever be able to tell you otherwise. When you have a lucid dream you know it was just a dream. I believe you mistaken a wake initiated lucid dream for a projection, you wouldnt be alone about 20 percent of would be projectors think that their "wilds" were projections then believe that projections aren't real because of their experiences with "wilds" leads them to believe that the "projections" were just very lucid dreams.
Take care man. Good luck with whatever you do. Regards,
T.L.
Kudos[:P]
I know I was having Lucid Dreams where I was Astral Projecting and was thinking this was the OBE that people were talking about. I then experienced a AP where I found myself in my bedroom after a exit that I had no memory of. I then began to relize that this was for me the proof of AP and Life after death even if I never had another. I will read the information on Ingo Swann as I have heard the name before. Also Alex Tanous.
I have been having Oobe experiences intentionally on and off now for the past four to five months, I also experienced some when I was younger but these were unintentional and I didn't really recognise them for what they were at the time.
I don't profess to know what the phenomena is, I just know that it is life changing when it happens, I am actually extremely surprised that it is not talked about or reported more frequently?
The difference for me between Oobe's and dreams is totally clear. The sensations that accompany an Oobe are completely unlike anything that I experience while dreaming.
To experience the exit noises (tearing velcro sound), the pulling away from the body, and the change in my conscious dimensions (feeling smaller, about the size of a tennis ball) really has to be experienced to be believed.
When I dream I always remember all of the details, colours, sounds, tastes, things said to me, situations etc, I would never describe these as lucid dreams though as I have never been able to change something within the dream I just seem to be going with it, maybe this will change though?
For me it either appears to be a Dream or an Oobe but nothing in between, I had a lengthy dream just three days ago one of the details of which was that I was putting a copy of Astral Dynamics into a rucksack, in the clear light of day I have to ask myself why wasn't that enough of a trigger to induce even the slightest lucidity? perhaps it's a question of the level of consciousness whilst dreaming?
I understand that if you have never experienced this then it is easy to be sceptical and brush it off as a special type of lucid dream, I was sceptical too, I wasn't a believer or a disbeliever I was just open to all of the possibilities.
I agree with T.L. on what he said about the conditioning, it is easy to be conditioned by outside influences or to even condition oneself knowingly or even unknowingly (perhaps that is what Oobes are a result of in some respect?)
By the way Ingo Swann as referred to in T.L's post has a very interesting website with many articles free to read, some are quite Jargon heavy but they make a very interesting read, here is the link http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/
I really hope that you do get to have an Oobe, once you have experienced those sensations you really won't have any more doubts.
quote:
SO iam awake why must i be unconsious to have a oobe?? why cant i have one when iam fully aware and wantto come out of my body.
[V] you CAN! You don't have to be unconcious. You can project and do whatever and back at home your physical body could be watching TV. This happens when you miss the projection exit and so don't realise you have projected. At this stage you control your physical body. When your astral body returns all the memories of its experience are transferred or exchanged with the physical body. Then you realise that you had projected and have memories of what you did. It's called the mind split because you basically have two minds.
Now people who have learned to adapt with the mind split can be concious of both bodies at once.
There is one more point I would like to tell that scott guy or whatever his name was. Lets say I take a few of my dreams and compare them to yours, nothing in my dream will match up with yours nothing not even the type of clothes I wore in the dream or the buildings I seen in my dreams. Because of the complexities of dreams its next to impossible to have dreams that will have something in them that match up with yours. That is how you tell dreams from oobe's. Even Charles Lindbergh has admitted to having an oobe. He also mentioned he seen a cord that came from somewhere on his back that ran down to the plane he was flying at the time and connected to his body. Note that in his time oobe's werent publicized at all like today and not many people knew about them short of the ones who experienced it.
Millions of people who have never read up on oobe's also talk about sensations and even the "silver cord" that supposedly attaches you to your physical body. If oobe's were simply dreams theres no way that millions of people experience the same exact things and see exactly the same things while out of the body, not unless it was some kind of mass delusion. That is the difference between oobe's and dreams each obe experience from people from different walks of life always seem to match up with someone elses accounts of their oobe experiences, whereas dreams wont even have one aspect that matches up with someone elses dream. Just do better research than reading peoples posts, read up on the past people who have experienced projections and the present and you will notice that aspects of ones accounts from the past will match up with accounts of people from the present.
"For me it either appears to be a Dream or an Oobe but nothing in between, I had a lengthy dream just three days ago one of the details of which was that I was putting a copy of Astral Dynamics into a rucksack, in the clear light of day I have to ask myself why wasn't that enough of a trigger to induce even the slightest lucidity? perhaps it's a question of the level of consciousness whilst dreaming?"
Yes when people speak of how to have lucid dreams or when you look at methods for lucid dreams you always seem to see the people who are posting say "Just look at your hands and if they melt or change then you will know you are dreaming" "Look at words and if they change before your eyes you will know you're dreaming"...etc What they dont realize is they already have some of their awareness/consciousness in their dreams for them to even be able to do more than just spectate. So yes you have to have some form of awareness/consciousness to be able to do what most mention. For me I am the worste kind of dreamer, although I have really good dream recall (I can remember up to 2-3 dreams per night) I have no form of awareness/consciousness in my dreams what so ever. The only thing I can do is spectate, most of the time I am seeing through my eyes but I do not control myself just watch things happening to myself.
So the trick is for people like me to create some kind of habit that will carry over to your dreams and just hope for your awareness to kick in. Some say that constantly asking yourself if you are dreaming when you are awake will carry over and they say this works really well after a while. The thing is in my dreams there are no dream signs like if I am in my dream and I am flying it all seems possible and not out of the ordinary, the reason why that is is because in my dreams I dont know who I am in real life and I attain none of my physical life memories in my dreams, so in my dreams that is the only world to me so every thing seems normal no matter what happens. So to say the least this will not work for me either.
I did find something that worked for me although it was by accident and while trying to project, and I will explain it here for people like myself to read and learn from. Okay go about your astral projection method and get to the sleep border. You will know you are there when you here voices,music,etc or for some you will also see things and images (hypnagogic images). Okay once in that state it wont take you long to pass out (fall asleep) if you are not careful. Now once there slowly and I mean slowly lower yourself into closer to being asleep, whatever way you wish. Just clear your mind and relax more to do so keeping no thought what so ever. Now when the images hit you be a little more than passive, dont let them just fly by. Look at them and observe and if applicable interact a little not too much just a little, its like flirting with sleep once you do that you will get deeper and the images will be more frequent.
Once you are in the desired state (the state I want you to be in) you will notice that you will lose seconds like you will forget what just happened which by that alone you will know you lost awareness/consciousness for a second or so and then you will gain all that awareness back, then once again do that same thing. Dont lower yourself too far or you will pass out not to have your awareness kick back in, if you do it right you will notice you drift off and then as fast as you drift off your consciousness will kick back in. I think the reason is, is because you are not close enough to the sleeping state that your subconscious hands over control back to your consciousness, whatever the reason just go with it.
Keep that state (difting in and out) going as long as you can, if you have the will power you will be able to do this for a half hour to an hour without falling asleep. After you drift in and out of consciousness for around a half hour or 10-15 times finally let yourself just fall asleep. Once you hit the last stage or two of your REM cycle (and withing the first five minutes of your dream, I mean five minutes as in dream time it will feel like five minutes) and once in your dream your awareness can and will automatically kick in and you will be more lucid than you ever thought possible. The habit of gaining your awareness/consciousness back after drifting off carries over into your REM/dream cycle.
I know it will work for just about anyone as like I said I am the least aware when I am dreaming and I have had a few lucid dreams by doing this. The thing is you will have to keep doing it in order for your awareness to kick in in your dreams. After doing what I told you to do I had lucid dreams for two days in a row, but after that they stopped so everytime you want to have a lucid dream you will have to do this before you go to sleep. For some once they have a lucid dream they will experience them again and again with no effort. But give this a try and let me know how it works out. Take care,
T.L.
Ok, maybe i dont know what iam saying is wrong or maybe i should just hit you guys in the head with a brick. Im NOt saying DREAMS AND OOBES ARE THE SAME THING, ALl Iam saying is dreams and Oobes share the same qualities as sleep. iam saying sleep branches to many different areas. Maybe a oobe is a advance form of sleep or an very advance dream.
I just dont beleve it branches to anything physical or spiritual.
You missed my point completely. If oobe's were just advanced sleep/dreams then people wouldn't report seeing the same things, and when I say people I mean millions of people. Its like me seeing an imaginary building with a made up name in my dream and millions of other people report seeing the same building with the same name, as you see that is not very likely. I shouldn't of even dignified your last post with a reply as you completely looked over the point. You just have to see it logically, there is no way that millions of people would see the same thing when out of the body if it was only a a "advanced" dream/sleep, unless of course it was a mass delusion and that later is not ever likely. I do feel bad for you when your time comes and you are too attached to the physical. Research more and really look dont glance over the tiniest sentence as it may contain important information. Regards,
T.L.
To Sctt859
Before I bow to the great one, I would like to know one thing...Do you or don't you?
quote:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12281
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 13:54:15
This is wierd too about 3 - 4 years ago i had a OOBE where this big shadowy figure was throwing me and hitting me around the room too can any one explain this?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12298
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 02:24:47
After i have my oobe i dont know whos watching me, is the mail man watching me?? And i dont feel safe any more ooo what a mess, i dont know whos watching me now, maybe the IRS??? Please some tell me if my OOBE is just a dream?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12279
22 May 2004 : 06:10:03
haha.. accctually i never projected before i didnt know you could even project and create things till i read this site thursay.. When i would have a OOBE i would just be in Paralize mode i would be so scared i would jerk or move my body real hard to go back to my physical form, but now that i can get into paralize form easy that means i can project easy meaning iam 1 step away from owning the astral plane and YOU SHALL ALL BOW TO ME!!! lol jus a lil rpging =/
To everyone else,
If you fertilize this, it grows. Remember Audry2 in "Little shop of Horrors"?
Good Day All,
D.C.
Thank you Dream cadet, I have seen that most of his post are contradictory to say the least...I appreciate you looking some up..[^]
Scott, please read my PM and take it very seriously.
Nay
Holy crap scott you contradict yourself more times than the bible. You say you do then you dont. You say its real then its not. My previous guess holds up you never projected before, so you dont have enough experience to say that its not real. Like I said search and research, experiment and experience. Then come back here and say if you think its a dream or not. That was entertaining thanks for the links to his previous posts. Good luck scott.
LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sory for all of you guys, but I really make fun of you ! It's always interesting to see people's misunderstood. But I hate when it goes too far... I should have read this topic before, anyway... I'm here !
First, I would say to the author of this topic (Sctt859) that I agree with him... But you should have explained a little more.
Here what I've understood. Obe has the same aspect of a dream with the difference that you have control of it. Alright ! I couldn't say better. Why does people seem to disagree !? Oh dammit ! That's it, Nobody know what is a DREAM... Please Sctt859, Take care of how you say things.[V]
The first argument to discredit an Obe is to compare it to a dream... And it's why we got all that "bleep" into this topic. (Some points was interesting, but most was out of the track [:(])
When we think about dream, we immediately reffer to a product of our brain, a pure immagination. It's a cute materialistic way to see it ! But it's not the only one...
I don't know why, but I'm absolutely sure it wasn't what Sctt859 would say. Would you !?
So now, I can argue with you... [:)]
I believe that our physical world, dream world and Astral world as your "realm" world (I put it into quotation mark 'cause I've never use it...) are all as much real as a blink. It doesn't mean anything, I know. [;)] It's just to put them in the same line of equality.
Your point is that spirits can't really go out (up to the realms) until we die. Hope you'll not try to kill yourself to verify it. [:O] The problem is that I believe in Reincarnation... so, in my opinion, we not actualy go "there" just by dying. It's not so simple... Go through these realities is (still in my opinion) a matter of conscience level.
Enough said ! [8] There's no offence, there's only apologize !
PS to T.L. (a friendly piece of advice): do you never breath !? I mean, won't you put some blank in your post, cause it's hard to read. Thanks !
I can see what you mean, in that some obes share the same properties as dreams. The thing is some people have lucid dreams that are so convincing they might think it was a projection, the same thing goes for wake initiated lucid dreams and even more so.
So honestly unless you have experienced it for yourself you might not know the difference at first.
As for you saying we do not go to realms or whatever till the reincarnation period ends. I too believe in reincarnation because of a few things I have experienced for myself, and memories I have embedded with my physical life memories of this life, but I look at it differently than what most people do that believe in reincarnation.
They think its a never ending cycle until you gain some form of control and are able to stop it. Some also seem to think that immediately after we die we are reborn, or a very short period after death they are. I believe that we chose to live again and or not forced to. Once you can get to a certain point you have a few options/paths you can take and one happens to involve living in the physical again. We may take this path because there are experience and knowledge we havent found yet in past lives so we go for it again, the catch is we wont know who we really are till we are die again physically.
Automatically assuming things is a mistake as we wont know till we die, so I too could be wrong but I think I have part if not half right. Know one is a hundred percent correct just because of the complexities along would be too much for one human mind to comprehend. lol yes I do breath I usually type very fast and dont feel the need to add spacing. I am not writing a book here and grammar can be sub-par I havent seen any rules against bad grammar, come on really its an online forum. If you can control your eyes to enough to read sentences next to each other without your sight skipping a few lines down then its a problem for you, see an optometrist. They have these non prescription glasses that are tinted with soft colours that help that problem. For this post I obliged though.
I think so fast so to keep up I just type as fast as humanly possible so I dont forget anything. Oh yes I almost forgot, there was someone on here talking about difficulty having lucid dreams the past three hours I went to sleep and I found something out just pm me. Most people here dont like my ideas or theories so I will just tell you. No need to express ideas and techniques here, when people dont want me to type because they cant control their eyes properly. Take care to the rest of you. I wish all of you luck with whatever you do.
quote:
Originally posted by T.L.
[...]the catch is we wont know who we really are till we are die again physically.
Automatically assuming things is a mistake as we wont know till we die, so I too could be wrong but I think I have part if not half right. Know one is a hundred percent correct just because of the complexities along would be too much for one human mind to comprehend.
I think it's a mistake to think that we can't know who we are (until we die). Moreover, do we really know more when we are died ? (How could we verify anyway...)
Here, I'll try again to plug my topic [:D] (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12265) There's a lot to learn about physic, dream, astral and others "phenomena". But it should lead us to a more accurate comprehension of ourself. That's my point ("Councillor Hamann: No, no point. Old men like me don't bother with making points. There's no point." -MatrixReloaded) [:P]
-Weeta
Ok i just had a oobe and to tell you the truth it felt more like a realm of sleep because when i woke up i was refreshed and ready to start my day same as dreaming. Sorry guys but one day you will find the truth. Before we can go to the spirit realm at all in a sleep in a oobe what ever we must fully know the properties of the physical realm.
and your cult leader robert is a fruit.
Ok, here's a bone for you guys to chew on.
Waking life, day dreaming, regular dreaming, lucid, dreaming, obe, near death experience and whatever else there is is all the same thing only from a different perceptual awareness point of view.
They are not discrete things but the very same existence seen form a different perspective that carries with it varying limitations of what is and is not possible.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Ty jilola, all a oobe is and all the others you said are just advance ways to get rest and sleep.
quote:
y jilola, all a oobe is and all the others you said are just advance ways to get rest and sleep.
No I didn't, really. I said they are the same existence viewed from various perspectives and with varying level of awareness.
In other words waking life, dream life and OBE are one and the same reality only the level to which we are attuned and thus capable of affecting and perceiving things varies.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Sctt,
Jouni is talking about the same thing we were talking about in your thread about dying and the brain. It's all the same thing... Just different interpretations of the same illusion.
Kerri
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
To jilola, all a oobe is and all the others you said are just advance ways to get rest and sleep.
Interesting... Do you believe you're awake !? What make you sure you're not sleeping right now ? Maybe just a brain in a vat ! Does physical world is less an illusion than a dream ? What is Truth !? Could it be objective ?
I'm not sure of your honesty.. Are you just making noise !?
Anyway.. Thanks (sincerely) for the waste of time !
-Weeta
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
and your cult leader robert is a fruit.
I'm pretty sure Robert and Adrian are not going to appreciate you saying this, I know I don't. [:(!]
Been nice knowing you Scott.
Nay
Is he banned yet?
astral society is better any way they dont cry like u guys do.
quote:
Originally posted by Sctt859
astral society is better any way they dont cry like u guys do.
Thats because everyone there is exactly like you.
Sctt: the spirit realm is when we die when we go to heaven or hell. This other place is just a more of a controlled dream. I hope not to hurt any ones feelings here but can any one reallly prove that the dream is our spirit realm that we just lose awareness in??
Things can be seen in obe in the real physical world that were not known before. That proves its real.
Scott I and a few others here are also members of as also. Let me clarify what you said about being asleep while projecting. If hooked up to an eeg machine and observed by a scientist/technician they would conclude that the projector was asleep in the non-rem non-dreaming sleep state, as where under the same circumstances dreaming it would identify us as being in the rem state, dreaming sleep state. If you project your physical body will feel refreshed just like when you sleep, same as the mind. If you have a lucid dream or many that night you will feel physically refreshed, same as the mind.
So if you indeed had a lucid dream you wouldnt know you werent projecting just by how you feel once you come out of it. I pointed to facts you could verify earlier with the alex tanous trials under scientific scrutiny and lab environments. Whether you want to look further into it or not is up to you, whether you do or not (and I believe I am speaking for the majority of this forum) do not care what you decide to do.
Im not mad at your opinions or anyone elses, everyone is entitled to have one about all subjects. But just dont say you can state for a fact they are not real, because its not a fact, its an opinion.
To weet: I didnt mean you cant gain insight to who you are exactly, you can gain insight but its in fragments and the whole isnt remembered till one physically dies and comes to terms with that. I know this for myself from my own experience and memories. Dont take my word for it though you will know when the time is right, and once you die physically. Every one has opinions, just please try to keep it on good terms, and everyone will appreciate you all the more for that. I am glad though I see people not blindly believing until they prove it to themselves, its good to be a skeptic. A skeptic keeps an open mind until he experiences and comes to a conclusion, he is not swayed or holds pre-conceived notions that something is false before looking into it.
Take care. I wish everyone luck with what they want to do. Also I wanted to know how to go about sending an article I wrote to the admin of the site to see if he/she thinks it would make a good addition to this site. I am not sure if they post articles. If anyone is interested it is about wake initiated lucid dreams and projection from non rem sleep with consciousness intact. Well once again good luck to everyone in what they decide to believe and do.
Scott, I agree that OBE's and dreams feel similar. I haven't been able to tell a difference and have a really hard time distinguishing the two unless it's self initiated. But I don't see what the big deal is. You can no sooner prove that they are both dreams than you can proove they're something more. Least you can't with a closed mind. But you've made your point. There's no reason to be rude about the matter. And that crack at Robert was completely uncalled for and unappreciated.[:(!] If that other forum is so much better, then go back to it and stay.
quote:
Ok i just had a oobe and to tell you the truth it felt more like a realm of sleep because when i woke up i was refreshed and ready to start my day same as dreaming.
No s***!? Normally when you project your body is asleep. That proved nothing.
Ah, such an interesting topic, but so poorly argued by Scott (I mean, calling OBEs just dreams, and then simply assuming heaven and hell exist?) Anyway, hopefully I can add a little to this topic (and without becoming childish and calling you all cultists).
Here's a reader's comment sent to James Randi's (magician and skeptic) site:
quote:
I'm not sure if you know much about the bizarre and rare sleep disorder of ASP (Aware Sleep Paralysis). I myself suffer from the disorder and for most of my life attributed the symptoms to supernatural phenomena. It can briefly be described as a state of complete lucidity during unconsciousness. Parts of the brain move towards unconsciousness while others lag behind, creating a strange state between the two. Paralysis is one of the symptoms, a natural state which we all enter into when we sleep so as to protect the body from injuring itself while dreaming. During ASP, you are simply still awake when the brain begins to shut down the body. Needless to say, it's a terrifying experience.
Other symptoms include auditory and visual hallucinations. As the logical brain falls asleep, your mind is given free reign to explore itself, that is, you begin to dream while still conscious. My youth was plagued with "supernatural events", strange beings walking around my bedroom, voices talking to me in the night. The knowledge that I was still awake led me to one conclusion — ghosts.
When entering the state, one often hears and feels a strange kind of buzzing. Interestingly, practitioners of deep "higher level" meditation describe a similar vibration experience. Could it be that they are simply inducing a type of ASP?
It has been suggested that falling asleep with your eyes open may induce ASP in many people. The brain gets mixed cues and the process becomes muddled. Practitioners of "astral traveling" are known to use a technique where they stare at a point on the wall, for many hours, until consciousness begins to slip. Sounds familiar.
There is very little information on this disorder, and all the doctors I've met have never heard of it. If it was not for the internet I would probably have personally sponsored the holiday homes of a few different exorcists and priests.
Now here's someone who has apparently experienced an OBE and yet is able to call it a side effect of the brain, no mysticism needed. Hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations are another way of explaining OBEs as interesting albeit utterly non-mystic phenomena.
Here's the kicker though: OBEs are entirely subjective. It's true, you can't prove an OBE is just a dream or a hallucination (science doesn't even understand what a dream is fully, and doesn't even begin to understand conciousness / individuality). You can say a dream / hallucination is the most probable explanation.
Likewise, you can't prove to others that an OBE is real, either. But isn't that the value of spirituality? Other people don't need proof, only you do.
My guess is Scott got frustrated with OBEs, he had no personal verification, so he went to demanding others for proof of something that can only be proved to the one experiencing it. This being impossible, it turned to venting frustration on posters. Sad, because an honest debate about the nature of OBEs (mystical vs. hallucination) would have been far more beneficial for everyone.
Mactombs:I agree with you, but i must something more: in order to observe reality, we cannot accept mystical theories. We must use the scientific method, if possible, if we want to study paranormal phenomenons. So, we basic law is this: the people that says that something is true (obes in this case) are the ones that must to proof it; not the opposite.
If i say that i have cloned Jesus; i f say that i have a gree living cow, with 13 legs; if i say that i am an alien and had come from Vega, etc, etc, iam the one that must proof such things. It would be ridiculous if the non-believers were the one that must to proof it.
Of coarse that obes are a little different: many people is convinced that they are real because they experience something. So, if they say something plausible, at least the scientists could do something to observe the phenomenon.
My opinion is that obes are not real (by real i mean: really getting out of the body), only subjective episodes, they are another sate of the sleeping mind. People, while obing cannot really proof to thereselfs with conclusive tests (card testes with 90% of sucess, etc) the "true" nature of obes. Why? There is that excuse of the reading impossibility, while obing, but that it will only show the dream nature of obes. If there are som many obers in the world, if there are many people interested on prooving it, why do i neever saw any proof?
so is sctt gone i hope so he was getting annoying if he is banned thanks
[:)][:D][8D]
I didnt read all the posts in this thread (too big), only some of them, but i think that it is unfair to banne it only because of something he believes (about dream and obes). He said something too, related to R.Bruce he is a fruit.
I know what a fruit is, but i sont know if, in this case, it is any bad expression on your language. If not, i think that it is not correct to bane it, besides that, you cannot say that he is being incorrect with other people in the forum (well, exception to R.Bruce): since the begining that some people seems to be "chasing" him just because he said that dreams=obes.
I think that all of us can have a good discussion on this topic without any agression. Let´s start to talk on it with an open spirit.
Just some more things: dont be surprised if you see opposite opinions coming from myself. Sometimes i dont believe on obes (when i use my rational spirit) but sometimes i believe (i am being emotive, i just want believe, its like being in love!).
quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan
So, we basic law is this: the people that says that something is true (obes in this case) are the ones that must to proof it; not the opposite.
What a good occasion to plug my topic again ! [:)] Over there, a excellent description of sciences. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12265
-Weeta
Is everyone ignoring the Verification argument? Beavis was the last person to mention it but some others did too. Verifying things that you saw in an OBE is proof that they are REAL, not just subjective, not just dreams, not just hallucinations. 'Real', as in: Mind seperating from body.
There have been a number of experiments that have shown the ability to verify things from NDEs or OBEs, but - conveniently - the 'scientific community' decide not to recognize the results. So it's down to you individually to prove it to yourself.
quote:
Just some more things: dont be surprised if you see opposite opinions coming from myself. Sometimes i dont believe on obes (when i use my rational spirit) but sometimes i believe (i am being emotive, i just want believe, its like being in love!).
I know just what you mean, Kazbadan.
quote:
in order to observe reality, we cannot accept mystical theories
I disagree. Defining "reality" is hard enough to start with. To say that nothing exists but the wholly-material world in a wholly-material universe is jumping the gun, and to say such would require the burden of proof.
quote:
There have been a number of experiments that have shown the ability to verify things from NDEs or OBEs, but - conveniently - the 'scientific community' decide not to recognize the results. So it's down to you individually to prove it to yourself.
I agree completely. I certainly don't believe I should demand proof from anyone outside of myself. It is, however, fruitful to discuss (in a friendly way, as Kazbadan said) arguments surrounding the reality of OBEs - at least for those of us with little experience. It helps redefine ways of looking at the world.
But for now, I'm gonna go take a look at weetabix's post. :)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA sctt you make me laugh!!!
do you know what an ignoramus is???
quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan
He said something too, related to R.Bruce he is a fruit.
I know what a fruit is, but i sont know if, in this case, it is any bad expression on your language.
Yeah fruit in our language can also be slang for; idiot, psycho, homosexual (as an insult).. it can mean a few things, none of which are nice.
He was insulting Robert Bruce which should not be accepted, im sure Robert Bruce wouldn't care, but it's offensive to those who have learnt a lot from his work.
About the VERIFICATION experiences: i really would like to know that they are true, but we must accept all the possibilities first, particulary the scientific ones:
Many times, when i see someone here in the forum, refering to such verifications, they speak like "One day i had..."; or "At some years ago i...", etc. I mean, they all speak (even experienced projectors) like if their experiences have happened at a long time ago; like if that verification obes were like one in a thousand of obes.
If that is true, that cannot proof anything. It´s like the card test: if i want to proof that i have psi powers, by guessing cards, i must achieve a great percentage of sucess. Of coarse that anyone, will have, let´s say, 30% of sucess. Scientists says that, by the laws of Statistic, it would be very strange if someone fails for far morethan 30% (i dont know if that is the number, the exact one).
In the same manner, if obes are just dreams (in a scientific view: just aleatory hallucinations or something like), it´s expected that sometimes they will match (even with high detail) in some way, with reality. Scientists argue that it would be strange if there weren´t "prophetics" dreams (dreams that match with reality), it´s natural that sometimes they happens: it´s statistic. The same for obes.
What do you think about this?
Kazbadan, I suggest you search these forums and find all of the testimonials of verifications. You tell me if they could be dreams or just chance. There is nothing scientifically wrong with the figures, considering the subject. If someone has 100 projections and on ONE, that person manages to 'see' the four digit number in another room, that is still highly highly unlikely and still constitutes evidence.
This isn't a case of:
1. is it 4169? no
2. is it 3456? no
3. is it 1098? no
.
.
12. is it 3424? yes.
This is more like:
1. didn't see it
2. didn't see it
3. didn't see it
.
.
12. I saw it. It is 3424. Yes
...and I'm talking about real verification, not getting the weather correct. [;)]
Hmmm...never think on that before. If is like you say (1 i didn see, 2 i didnt see....etc 14: i see it and it´s 3242:correct afirmation) we are in the presence of more solid proofs, like i am searching for.
My problem with proof is that obe it´s a so damned good thing to be truth, and i dont believe in such good things (the flying sensation it´s a godess one to me...just want to try it). Because of that, i will see if such a good present is not hiding any lie or any trap.
BTW: i must be he most broing guy in the forum asking for proofs![;)]
[:D] On the contrary Kazbadan, I wish more people would seek proof. There are too many blind believers nowadays, who just believe anything that sounds nice and comforts them. People should seek to KNOW, not just to believe.
Ok ! I will try to share my view with you here, 'cause I have a feeling that opinions are really mixte.
Probably a part of you believe that Obe couldn't be proved (or it's just not necessary) because it is an subjective "phenomena". Others would yell about the RTZ possibility to prove it. I don't know why, but I've in the idea that both views are correct !? Are they two sides of the same coin ? Or use of each side of our brain.. You know, like 1 + 1 = 2 with my left brain and with my right brain it's BLUE !! (don't ask why it make me laugh, it's my right brain...[:)]) Science and Religion (or Spirituality) have been opposed a long time (they still are). Some studies about "Paranormal" have been maked lately, but the gulf which divide them still exist even if prejudices are breaking (which is a good thing).
But I think we reach a limit with both (science and spirituality => logic & intuition). Science can't really be objective. Objects are analized and defined by an observator. So objectivity isn't Absolute. You may argue that many observators can reach it, I will reply that our eyes can't see all the color spectrum. Also, spirituality can't be more "absolute" than science, with a bigger evidence. Just think about all "dogmas" (which is not the major point...)
So, where does it bring us !? Oups, I don't remember ! Na.. just kiding [:P]
There's limits and we should overpass them. Should I say metaphysic ? Oups, we've lost half our reader...[;)]
If we could find the cause which explain Obes, would you buy it ? I mean, not only Obe of course ! But here, I'm really talking about metaphysics (or Hyperscience)... I'm not sure to have right in this forum. So the best is still to put a pointer ([:D]you've noticed.. yes, I plug it again[:D]) http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12265
To be harmonized with the topic title, I would say : Truth exist somewhere... just follow link ! [:D]
Sory for those who don't want to hear about it, but do we care !? [:O]
I sincerely believe there is a lot to learn with M. Frank Hatem's Hyperscience (as there is with energie development and obes). Could it inspire somebody like Robert Bruce's N.E.W do with me..
All that subject are so GREAT !
-Weeta
P.S. to Meedan : What you've said is SO true ! And I take it very personal [B)] ! (not your fault) Does somebody would pray for me, I wish but things are always hard to begin for me
OK. Experience. I have had a lot of dreams all my life. I know what it feels like to be in a dream, realise you are dreaming and then take the dream in some self-determined direction.
Also, I have had several OOBE's. The difference is staggering.
1. OOBE - massive vibrations, DREAM - no vibrations, ever
2. OOBE - feels like "super real" DREAM - when you know you are dreaming then you know it is a dream, there is a huge difference here.
3. OOBE - my wife has "seen" my energy body during return! DREAM - ok, you get the idea.
OK, just a few points. But point 2 is interesting ? If you know the difrerence in feeling between OOBE, dream and awake state then how can it be possible that OOBE and dream are the same ?
The first time I had an OOBE I knew this was something else. It is important always in these matters to have an open mind, keep trying with an open mind and you will also learn the difference.
Ok, well I didnt read through all 8 pages of this because I am falling asleep here and I want to go to sleep. BUT....I would just like to comment on why OBE is totally different then a dream and the proof that I have from what I have read and experienced.
When you lay down to go to bed your brainwaves which normally pulse in the beta range will switch to alpha as you relax, then as you approach the edge of falling asleep they will enter theta....when they are in theta, this is the famous mind awake, body asleep state...ala the state in which OBE occurs. If you continue to relax and go with the flow...your body and mind will fall asleep and your consciousness will go with it into the delta state. This is the state of full sleep and unconsciousness and the state in which dreaming takes place.
So in conclusion OBE is different then dreaming because physically our brainwaves are in different states as well as our consciousness being awake or asleep for lack of better terminology.
I have verified this myself by using brainwave music to switch my brainwaves into full theta and I was DEFINATLY not asleep because there was no feeling of ever crossing that point and losing consciousness. While in this state I was able to OBE. If I dont use the theta music then I feel myself cross that certain point in which i switch from theta to delta and I feel my consciousness shut down as I drift asleep and then I end up having a dream.
[:D]
I was quite interested in this argument from the start as I began reading about this whole topic before I got into Rob Bruce and got a lot of information from the writings of following man http://www.geocities.com/ddegraci/ . He had an incredible amount of astral experiences(which he describes in his free internet book DO OBE) but was more of the opinion that the terms astral projection, OBE and lucid dreaming were all connected historically to certain groups(respectively occultist fron 19th century, parasychologists from 60s-70s and modrn psychologists) but all describe the same basic phenomenon. In DO OBE(1994) he takes an occultist viewpoint describing astral planes and such. Afterwards he got his Ph. D in Neurophysiology or similar and did lots of research into dreaming and the mind and now he thinks it can all be explained by the internal workings of the mind. In one of his 4 lectures(PTALK) written after DO OBE he suggests a convergence between occultist view and scientific view is possible due to the nature of quantum mechanics. For exampe if 11 dimensions exists we can see 4 dimensions in physical and the other 7 are the astral planes ( physicists speculate they are just "folded up" somehow). Obviously the argument about being in or out of the body is absurd as everything is produced by consciousness and just an illusion ultimately. I am of the opinion that there can ultimately be no contradiction between our understanding of physics and that of occult reality. These are just different explanations of the same phenomenon. Einstein said "God does not play dice". Of course he was wrong in the end. Not even the greatest genius can always see everything. There can obviously be no true separation between physical and astral/spiritual realms ultimately so that understanding the quantum mechanical connection over our consciousness is important. Even though we argue now over semantics( basically two men see a tree and both invent a different word for it then argue about it forever) as to what it is to be in some other realm of consciousness in terms of physical explanation or occult explanation be assured God/Turth is all encompassing and can take in both views in a much more comprehensive theoretical framework which eliminates any contradictions so that everyone actually is right. We just do not yet have this framework as we are at a much too primitive level of development.
I agree with galacticsurfer.
Here's a definition of science:
1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
3. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
4. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
I think that those definitions have a lot to say about science and OBEs, proof and OBEs. I still maintain that at this level, proof for OBEs is only found at an individual level. Even if we knew enough and could put that knowledge into an accurate language, and could prove OBEs, people have a tendency to believe what they want. Whether they obstinately choose to believe against OBEs or for them. That's why I think no. 4 above is so important.
quote:
Originally posted by mactombs
I still maintain that at this level, proof for OBEs is only found at an individual level.
I just want to add that :
"I - I AM.
The sensation of being is a certitude. Only the sensation, not its form. My sensation of being is the sensation that there is a universe. It means that being is a DUALITY. I say "I am" because I feel in opposition with "what I feel I am not". I feel that the infinity around me is outside me, is not me. This object of consciousness makes me feel "I am".
II - I AM IS ALL.
There's nothing in the universe which is not contained in this sensation of being: everything I can experience is a sensation of "I AM". Hence, if I want to be scientific, I must recognize that NOTHING EXISTS OUTSIDE MYSELF, since the whole universe is MY SENSATION. So, I am obliged to say: "I am not a body". For my body is a sensation among many others, and all of them are included in "I AM". I can't be at the same time matter or body, which are forms of sensation, and the sentient act itself. These are two different persons, and the first step to initiation is to recognize the distinction between these two aspects of reality: what I am, and what I feel myself to be. I am the consciousness of things, not things themselves.
III - SO, EVERYTHING IS MENTAL.
Everything is A PART OF MIND. OF MY MIND. Matter itself is a sensation of mind. Now you can no longer remain a physicist. If you are still in some doubt, ask yourself the question: "can I be conscious of something which is outside my consciousness?" The answer is NO. I can't be. If I feel or observe something, it obviously means that it is INSIDE my mind. If it is outside my mind, I can't have any consciousness of it. Quantum Physics is obliged to admit that. The whole universe, all that can be conscious, is spiritual. You can by no means prove the existence of something matérial, though you can be sure of mind. So, be scientific. Reject hypotheses. Reject matter as such.
" [From : http://www.hatem.com/metah.htm -by Frank Hatem]
-Weeta
Cool post weetabix! Lets go meditating and see for ourselfs!
McTombs:quote:
1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
The second item is uncesseraily restrictive since any natura phenomena can only be classified as such after an investigation of an unclassified phenomena. Restricting science to investigate only "natural" phenomena leads to an arbitrary classification of phenomena as natural.
weeta:Nice quote.
2cents & L&L
jouni
After reading these forums im slowly starting to beleve that all a oobe is, is a dream we have more control of. Really whats the difference between a controlled dream and a oobe. WE can create stuff in both places, meet people in both places, have emotions in both places, gain knologage in both places. The reason we paralize and vibrate in a oobe is that because your body has never stayed aware when shifting through a dream world. When you vibrate and paralize that is your body slowly shutting down and you are ussually lost consiousness but when you aware your self of this you feel what you normally feel when your not awake. Trust me the spirit realm is when we die when we go to heaven or hell. This other place is just a more of a controlled dream. I hope not to hurt any ones feelings here but can any one reallly prove that the dream is our spirit realm that we just lose awareness in??