As background, after years of meditating I spontaneously started having lucid dreams and OBEs about 10 years ago and now nearly every morning. I've read most of the books on the subject and use the 'rope climbing' technique which is the most effective and quickest for me.
Early this morning during my first OBE I entered my usual black space 'staging area' where I felt a rush of air and forward momentum. I came to a large movie screen that unfolded and an on-screen man started firing a gun at me with big balls of light coming out. The man was 2-D but the balls of light were 3D and came towards me. I decided not to be afraid and held out my hand to block the light balls and woke up. This was similar to an unusual OBE a few days ago when I asked to go to my Akashic records and I encountered a detailed cartoon figure that blocked my progress and blew up. I woke up, had another OBE and ran into the very same character which also blew up as if I was in a computer game and the same program looped.
After this morning's movie screen OBE, I had another and decided to chant 'Om'. Singing or chanting really elevates my flying/experience and this time others joined in and then a full musical accompaniment. Lovely. I ended up in a garden setting with a classical Greek-like monument and I said to myself that this seemed familiar and I wondered if it was an astral plane construction and a soft English woman's voice say 'yes'. I asked who she was and she said 'Rebullous' and she was my guide. I asked for how long and she said 'from the beginning'. Then a woman appeared who I assumed was her and said I was getting into dangerous territory and I needed to avoid the Queen and at that moment another woman appeared and grabbed my left wrist and started to cut it. That freaked me out so I decided to wake up rather than fight back and when fully awake I saw an angry ghost head above the bed for a few seconds and asked her to leave and she dissolved. This gave me serious pause because not only did the dream seem more threatening than usual but as sometimes happens when I have a scary dream that same character in a holographic ghostly form is in my room when I awake making me think it's not just my dream imagination but a thought form/being.
But that didn't stop me from inducing another OBE and I found myself in another outdoor classical setting and a woman immediately introduces herself as Anna, my guide (the name Anna has come up as my guide before). I get a good vibe from her and she said I've been getting into dangerous territory lately with my OBEs and that it's safe once I get to "Zion" where I am now. She then walks me to a round temple and seats me in a chair and said they are going to teach me how to have safer OBEs. Unfortunately I then wake up with a start.
What to make of all this? After having fairly typical flying OBEs to cities or among clouds or those that morph into regular dreams, these are hyper-vivid and longer and seem to be warnings or blocking my travels. Are these just another barrier our unconscious throws up like the clanking sounds or threatening voices I used to have when I first starting having OBEs? I think there's really nothing to fear so I'm going to keep exploring these new realms and do my best to stay in a meditative/higher vibrational state while doing so. Any advice or similar experiences would be most welcome.
Jill
Send them PUL.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/pul_pure_unconditional_love_retrievals-t33529.0.html
Yes, the unconditional love technique usually transforms things right away.
After just reading this, I think I was in Frank's F3 zone and it was more real/vivid than my usual F2 and that's what freaked me out a bit. BTW, I concur with Frank's findings/experiences although I haven't made it to F4 as far as I know.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/the_frank_kepple_phasing_resource_is_now_available-t25809.0.html
Interesting... I remember once asking to see my spirit guide and got a video game-like "text message" with the avatar of an old man next to it. Not sure what the message said but it made me a bit uncomfortable and I felt more or less blocked from pursuing that endeavor.
I can't tell you what your experience means, but it was a great read nonetheless.
I translate the cartoon characters as my consciousness telling me that are symbols and not real beings. I appreciate the distinction, actually, since they usually show up in the black 3D world that Frank describes as between F2 and F3.
As a total aside, I've awoken a few times this month to find a holographic hummingbird flitting about the room and a friend of mine who is a Shaman said that was my animal totem revealing itself. In reading the symbolism of this totem/symbol, if makes total sense for me.
Hey, great story. I'm afraid you are more of an accomplished explorer than myself, so I can't offer too much advise. I'm sure your guides have your back and you can keep on exploring. Sounds like you are finding out some interesting things. 8-)
Hallo Jilt
Having the ability to return to a specific astral area and become familiar with the residents and environs there is a BIG bonus. I have journeyed to many unusual astral realms but have Never been able to deliberately return to any of them. :? It's not for want of desire or trying, it's just that my own astral travels seem to be mostly random.
So, any advice or info you can provide as to how you manage to return to those same astral locales (like "Zion", and where/what is that btw?)
would be greatly appreciated. :-)
Regards
Grey
I haven't had much luck returning to the same location other than this experience where I went to the park with classical buildings (and after reading Frank Keppler's description I believe this was a F3 astral construction since it was more vivid and unchanging than F2 worlds).
The only other times I've had reoccurring locations is:
. happily flying in the puffy cloud world with classical music playing
. in a cityscape unable to fly through unceasing layers of power lines
. what looks like ancient Rome (and when I do, I'm assisted by another being who literally takes me under their wing and flies me around)
. outer space (once escorted around the dark side of the moon and I saw a complex of low-slung huge buildings)
I'm going to outer space more now that I'm over the fear that I'm too 'far out' to return to my body. Sometimes when I get to space, I can touch the sky and it appears 2-D/flexible which is my interpretation that we live in a holographic universe and are projecting the whole thing. But perhaps I'm reading too many Seth/Jane Roberts and books on quantum physics.
Quote from: Jilt on May 06, 2011, 13:50:40
As background, after years of meditating I spontaneously started having lucid dreams and OBEs about 10 years ago and now nearly every morning. I've read most of the books on the subject and use the 'rope climbing' technique which is the most effective and quickest for me.
Early this morning during my first OBE I entered my usual black space 'staging area' where I felt a rush of air and forward momentum. I came to a large movie screen that unfolded and an on-screen man started firing a gun at me with big balls of light coming out. The man was 2-D but the balls of light were 3D and came towards me. I decided not to be afraid and held out my hand to block the light balls and woke up. This was similar to an unusual OBE a few days ago when I asked to go to my Akashic records and I encountered a detailed cartoon figure that blocked my progress and blew up. I woke up, had another OBE and ran into the very same character which also blew up as if I was in a computer game and the same program looped.
After this morning's movie screen OBE, I had another and decided to chant 'Om'. Singing or chanting really elevates my flying/experience and this time others joined in and then a full musical accompaniment. Lovely. I ended up in a garden setting with a classical Greek-like monument and I said to myself that this seemed familiar and I wondered if it was an astral plane construction and a soft English woman's voice say 'yes'. I asked who she was and she said 'Rebullous' and she was my guide. I asked for how long and she said 'from the beginning'. Then a woman appeared who I assumed was her and said I was getting into dangerous territory and I needed to avoid the Queen and at that moment another woman appeared and grabbed my left wrist and started to cut it. That freaked me out so I decided to wake up rather than fight back and when fully awake I saw an angry ghost head above the bed for a few seconds and asked her to leave and she dissolved. This gave me serious pause because not only did the dream seem more threatening than usual but as sometimes happens when I have a scary dream that same character in a holographic ghostly form is in my room when I awake making me think it's not just my dream imagination but a thought form/being.
But that didn't stop me from inducing another OBE and I found myself in another outdoor classical setting and a woman immediately introduces herself as Anna, my guide (the name Anna has come up as my guide before). I get a good vibe from her and she said I've been getting into dangerous territory lately with my OBEs and that it's safe once I get to "Zion" where I am now. She then walks me to a round temple and seats me in a chair and said they are going to teach me how to have safer OBEs. Unfortunately I then wake up with a start.
What to make of all this? After having fairly typical flying OBEs to cities or among clouds or those that morph into regular dreams, these are hyper-vivid and longer and seem to be warnings or blocking my travels. Are these just another barrier our unconscious throws up like the clanking sounds or threatening voices I used to have when I first starting having OBEs? I think there's really nothing to fear so I'm going to keep exploring these new realms and do my best to stay in a meditative/higher vibrational state while doing so. Any advice or similar experiences would be most welcome.
Jill
Theres 2 things I wanna talk about but il start here. As for those frightening experiences, like getting shot at -stuff like that. Maybe It was caused by your guide to see how you would react. Maybe she wanted to see if you can overcome it and not be afraid, to let you know your in control.
I wonder about stuff like that everytime I get back from one. Let me explain about the one I recently had- Il get right to the part that relates to what im referring. So im in the astral and im going up this road and I see I woman waving at me from the porch of a house. She wanted me to come to her -So I did. She asked me if I can help and to follow her into the house -so i did. We walked through her house and came to a garage where there was a car parked there and a black steel safe nxt to it. She said she needed the key for the car but it was locked in the safe and she couldnt get it. She asked me to get it.
Now she stared at me, as if she was testing me to see if I could get the key which was locked in this big steel safe. So I started peeling the steel off the safe like a banana and got the key. I handed it to her and she try to start the car. But it wouldnt start. So I put my hand on the car and just simply willed it to start without the key. She smiled at me and drove away. Shortly after it ended.
Obviously I thought alot about what that was all about and I came to the conclusion that it was kind of like a test. She was seeing if I can overcome the obstacles that were presented to me that would of been impossible in reality. For whatever reason I dont know. Maybe that lady was my guide, I dont know. But maybe thats why youve been experiencing stuff like that, just to overcome and know your in control. -something along those lines.
As for the other part when you wake up n see things I think thats just hallucinations. Sometimes when i get shot back to my body from an obe from being suddenly frightened, ill wake up while im still in sleep paralysis and for a couple seconds while im still unable to move ill see things. That to me happened more times than I can count, I wouldnt even think twice about it.
-Ive got a tons of experiences that left me wondering, Id love to share stories with u sometime.
Yes, I've often thought that any challenges that come up are tests much like the Buddha experienced when he was 'attacked' during meditation by manifestations of his fears. He eventually learned that it was all an illusion of his own making and that there was nothing ever to fear in the waking 'real' world either. This is evidenced in the dream world when you send love or humor to a negative entity and it transforms into something positive (or disappears).
Perhaps it's like police training where they continuously go through attack drills so that police officers learn how to react calmly and at their best without letting the adrenalin rush you would normally experience turn them to mush. I can hear news that normally would freak out most people and not let it get to me so perhaps it's working!
Thanks for sharing your key dream. I love it and there's many layers here to translate. What I find interesting about the guides or characters like the one you describe is how they feel neutral when they are giving you the test (which makes me think they are of your own making) vs. some of those that give you brilliant advice or a feeling of pure love (which makes me think they are actually guides). It's the emotions you're picking up that are the telling and the emotions/focus you radiate (rather than your words) that really transform your experience.
Quote from: Jilt on May 13, 2011, 14:44:08
Yes, I've often thought that any challenges that come up are tests much like the Buddha experienced when he was 'attacked' during meditation by manifestations of his fears. He eventually learned that it was all an illusion of his own making and that there was nothing ever to fear in the waking 'real' world either. This is evidenced in the dream world when you send love or humor to a negative entity and it transforms into something positive (or disappears).
Perhaps it's like police training where they continuously go through attack drills so that police officers learn how to react calmly and at their best without letting the adrenalin rush you would normally experience turn them to mush. I can hear news that normally would freak out most people and not let it get to me so perhaps it's working!
Thanks for sharing your key dream. I love it and there's many layers here to translate. What I find interesting about the guides or characters like the one you describe is how they feel neutral when they are giving you the test (which makes me think they are of your own making) vs. some of those that give you brilliant advice or a feeling of pure love (which makes me think they are actually guides). It's the emotions you're picking up that are the telling and the emotions/focus you radiate (rather than your words) that really transform your experience.
I consider dreaming and an obe completely different. That key story was an induced OBE.
When I dream, I consider that to be not real. I dont give my dreams a 2nd thought.
I believe an OBE is real. I can go on n on but you get my point.
Actually, about dreaming, I disagree. I had a dream once and never gave it a second thought until a couple of weeks later when it came true. It seems that certain dreams can be precognitive. There is also such a thing as shared dreaming, it's happened to me twice and I find it harder to believe that me and my wife happened to have the same dream and the same conversation (more like argument) by coincidence.
And Mode 2 OOBEs (AP) tend to be trips to the metaphysical realm...a realm where thoughts have their own reality. A realm where things such as memories, future probabilities, imagination and dreams have their own reality. If a dream is vague that's because your focus is poor at the time. Mode 2 OOBEs are an entry into that realm which can reflect your expectations too - hence the inaccurate replicas of your bedroom when you separate - and the further you go the stranger it can get.
In fact our consciousness already resides there but it is a matter of where we are focusing. When we daydream, we partially focus there. Such reality can reflect your personal mental states and experience has led me to suspect that there are collective mental states that can be shared too. It seems that Carl Jung noticed this too hence the personal and the collective unconscious. Both dreams and Mode 2 OOBEs can appear to present evidence of telepathy sometimes.
Mode 1 OOBEs (RTZ projections) is when you focus on the consciousness that resides in the physical realm which is all-pervading as it resides in the body and extends beyond it. Hypothetically speaking, remote viewing is to Mode 1 OOBEs what daydreaming is to Mode 2 OOBEs.
I would not say that dreams are not real. I think "surreal" is a better term. Yes, a lot of the time you are molding your own playdoh in the dream-state, but, this does not mean that the playdoh you are playing with doesn't exist. I strongly suspect that thoughts actually exist as an extension of reality, possibly dwelling in frequencies beyond the ultrasonic which remain undetected by science...for now.
Let's not forget that the quantum world can defy our logic, in fact behaving very much like a dream, and yet we don't say it isn't real or that it's not happening...we merely call it strange.
Quote from: Tee1234 on May 13, 2011, 15:48:53
I consider dreaming and an obe completely different. That key story was an induced OBE.
When I dream, I consider that to be not real. I dont give my dreams a 2nd thought.
I believe an OBE is real. I can go on n on but you get my point.
Well it really does come down to personal belief + experiences, and in the end nobody can ever really prove to you one way or the other.
I'm always quite baffled and puzzled as to why people think they're "separate" things.
Through my experiences I've seen that they're, quite literally, one in the same.
Also, the term "real" is quite the conundrum. What exactly does "REAL" mean?
YES! I was also coming to that point...^^
What is REAL? Even Buddhist philosophy (and I'm gonna be using Buddhist terms here to explain this perspective) teaches that this is only a concept. A delusion. A delusion of Samsara because every concept has to have an opposite...REAL...UNREAL...LIGHT-DARK...PRETTY-UGLY...and so on...
In nirvana...which they consider ultimate reality, we are free of forms, senses, concepts and selfhood. It's neutral. It's bliss. According to such philosophy, there's no real truth but emptiness. The rest are just delusions...delusions which are existent nonetheless because they can be experienced by the mind and this is what fuels the realm of samsara.
Yes, I agree with the last few posts -- in my experience there's little difference between an OBE and lucid dreams (I have both all the time and go through the similar stages of an OBE in a lucid dream but just don't have the 'lift out of the body' sensation and see the room). Staying fully conscious in either state will help you get to the next realm and further from normal unconscious dreaming.
Lately 'reality' in my waking world is coming up with some downright magical manifestations, it just takes a little longer to see the manifestation than in the dream/OBE world. So like many spiritual traditions believe, perhaps waking life is just a more 'stable' dream but your dreaming nonetheless and when you die is when you really wake up (well, maybe, you could get stuck in a lower F3, but I'm hopeful we progress).
Quote from: Xanth on May 13, 2011, 16:30:47
Well it really does come down to personal belief + experiences, and in the end nobody can ever really prove to you one way or the other.
I'm always quite baffled and puzzled as to why people think they're "separate" things.
Through my experiences I've seen that they're, quite literally, one in the same.
Also, the term "real" is quite the conundrum.
What exactly does "REAL" mean?
C'mon Man its not that deep. I mean ya have to draw the line somewhere. You consider every dream you have to be obe?...no difference in the 2?
Personally for me, if I dont get the vibrations and exit my body its not an OBE.
Yes, you can see it from that perspective. But consider the fact that when you dream, you are not exactly focusing in the physical body either, you feel like you are somewhere else...hence, you are in essence experiencing being "out of body".
Besides, remember these quotes from The Matrix?
"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"
"If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain"
when you think "real", like most people, you are thinking about something which has an actual existence, something that can be found objectively, something fixed...but you also have to realise that this apparently fixed and solid world is made up of subatomic particles which can behave in contradicting ways and their behaviour can strangely depend upon observation...just like a dream. I think this is where Xanth is coming from when he says that this reality could be a very persistent dream.
The objects you see in the physical realm are not exactly what they appear to be. The desk and the computer you use are not really stable. They are made up of atoms that vibrate violently. Nothing is at rest here and yet, this reality can create the illusion that things are fixed.
Also, objects are not really solid even though you perceive them to be so. They are made of atoms and the empty space between them. The empty space is greater than the amount of atoms that make up the object. This simple observation would lead you to the conclusion that the object is mostly made of nothing. The atoms themselves are mostly made of empty space if you go from the nuclei to outer orbits. Break down the atoms themselves and you realise that even these are NOT solid at all. You are then found with bundles of energy which are just waves of possibility in nothingness.
So...if on a quantum level we can observe that even the physical is not stable, just like a dream, and yet we label it "real", is it fair to say that dreams are not real?
Quote from: Tee1234 on May 14, 2011, 03:16:28
Personally for me, if I dont get the vibrations and exit my body its not an OBE.
Might I *suggest* that by limiting your definition of what an OBE/AP is that, maybe, you're limiting yourself?
Instead, why not just remain open to the possibilities out there and allow to happen to you whatever may happen. :)
Greetings
Tee, your last post was
QuoteWhat exactly does "REAL" mean?
C'mon Man its not that deep. I mean ya have to draw the line somewhere. You consider every dream you have to be obe?...no difference in the 2?
Personally for me, if I dont get the vibrations and exit my body its not an OBE.
THANK YOU :-D
. (Except for the part about vibrations which I have found are Not absolutely necessary, but oh well).
There Does seem to be a need for some people to CONTINUALLY reiterate their belief that there is no difference between an OBE and a lucid dream. This belief has been stated SO MANY times in SO many different threads as to have become somewhat obnoxious.
And the argument about what is Real changes the discussion about what a person experienced into what a person believed that they experienced AND what other people BELIEVED the experiencer experienced.
I am NOT going to get drawn into a debate or long "discussion'" about this. As far as I am concerned this is hardly different than debating the subject of "are OBEs real?" with ardent skeptics. It is a waste of time. If other people want to continually espouse this belief so be it.
Tee I admire you for 'sticking to your guns' on this. Really I do. But we have had debates like this here before. IMO it's a waste of time.
Sincerely 8-)
Grey
QuoteThere Does seem to be a need for some people to CONTINUALLY reiterate their belief that there is no difference between an OBE and a lucid dream. This belief has been stated SO MANY times in SO many different threads as to have become somewhat obnoxious.
Why do you find it obnoxious when there's a good chance that it could be true? Is it not possible that both could be experiences of the same phenomenon but just brought about in different ways? For example, you can either be carried into a hospital while unconscious or you can enter it consciously...
To me that doesn't seem like a fair statement, Grey, it seems biased. Someone else could come along and say that some people feel the need to CONTINUALLY reiterate their belief that OOBEs and lucid dreams are completely different things and that it has been stated SO MANY times and in SO many threads as to have become somewhat obnoxious.
How would that make you feel? Either beliefs are valid.
Neither are obnoxious. I will say this though. To make the distinction between OOBEs and lucid dreams solely on vibrations is baseless. Why? Because I have experienced vibrations in both. I have had DILDs where I have experienced vibrations (while in them) and upon return (regaining physical awareness). Regardless of what the experience is, vibes can be experienced.
Quote from: Summerlander on May 14, 2011, 14:45:37
Why do you find it obnoxious when there's a good chance that it could be true?
It's really besides the point if it 'could' be true or not.
On a forum like this where there's a continual stream of people coming in and leaving... that's why I keep reiterating it over and over.
It's also why we answer the same questions over and over.
I just don't understand why Grey finds one side of the coin obnoxious when the other side turns up just as much. Do you see where I'm coming from, Xanth?
Quote from: Summerlander on May 14, 2011, 16:26:54
I just don't understand why Grey finds one side of the coin obnoxious when the other side is turns up just as much. Do you see where I'm coming from, Xanth?
Well I'd rather not take sides here really... I'm more just stating how I see it. :)
It's not about taking sides really. It really doesn't matter how me or you see things. I just don't see why Grey feels that one side is obnoxious. where is this coming from? :?
Quote from: Summerlander on May 14, 2011, 16:29:56
It's not about taking sides really. It really doesn't matter how me or you see things. I just don't see why Grey feels that one side is obnoxious. where is this coming from? :?
Can I get ya a tissue bud?
Take a deep breathe n count to 10. Where all friends here.
Quote from: Tee1234 on May 15, 2011, 18:38:12
Can I get ya a tissue bud?
Take a deep breathe n count to 10. Where all friends here.
It certainly doesn't seem like it, reading this post.
Greetings
Yes, I do find the OBE = LD argument to be very redundant and, at times, obnoxious.
Summerlander
Why do you feel the need to continually repeat this argument again and again?
Does anyone read posts from Tee or myself that Continually profess the belief that OBEs and LDs are separate and distinct phenomena??
The answer to the above question is NO.
While both of us Do believe that OBEs are Not LDs neither of us feels it necessary to interject that belief continually into many different threads.
IMO the OBEs = LDs argument is essentially the same as the argument that the consciousness can Not exist apart from and separate from the physical body. The OBE = LD argument basically boils down to believing that anyone who claims to have experienced their consciousness outside and apart from their physical body (via OBE or NDE) is Mistaken and is unaware that the OBE or NDE is just some sort of glorified Lucid Dream.
The many accounts of people who have had NDEs have clearly and unequivocally shown that consciousness can and does exist apart from the physical body under certain conditions.
NDEs and OBE are not LDs. But here, once again, I am on the defensive. And (read my last post) I won't waste time on this particular argument anymore.
But, hey, from now on, maybe I'll end every third or fourth post here with a statement like,
"And, oh btw, just remember that OBEs (and NDEs) are NOT the same as lucid dreams."
It won't really matter what the original post in the thread is about. I will include the above statement just to remind everyone what my personal belief is.
Now, IF I do that on a regular basis for several weeks then I warrant Many people Will see how obnoxious Any argument can be when it is repeated over and over and out of context .
Sincerely 8-)
Grey
Everyone should have that in their sig.
Grey, you still haven't told me why one side of the coin is obnoxious and the other isn't. It's not about whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not. It's about whether or not OOBEs and LDs are the same. Hell, I've even had a normal dream that weeks later seems to have proved its precognitive nature! You are avoiding my question. Why are you so in favour of one view and not the other?
Quote from: Greytraveller on May 15, 2011, 23:30:54
Why do you feel the need to continually repeat this argument again and again?
Does anyone read posts from Tee or myself that Continually profess the belief that OBEs and LDs are separate and distinct phenomena??
The answer to the above question is NO.
I can't answer for Summerlander, but for myself, the knowledge that OBEs and LDs are the same thing is what I believe to be a fundamental step in forwarding our knowledge of the subject. So yup, I'm gonna be very redundant upon it... because of how fundamental I believe that knowledge to be. I mean, personally, I simply can't understand why people believe they're different... it's like the nose on my face, so completely and utterly obvious.
QuoteIMO the OBEs = LDs argument is essentially the same as the argument that the consciousness can Not exist apart from and separate from the physical body. The OBE = LD argument basically boils down to believing that anyone who claims to have experienced their consciousness outside and apart from their physical body (via OBE or NDE) is Mistaken and is unaware that the OBE or NDE is just some sort of glorified Lucid Dream.
The many accounts of people who have had NDEs have clearly and unequivocally shown that consciousness can and does exist apart from the physical body under certain conditions.
NDEs and OBE are not LDs. But here, once again, I am on the defensive. And (read my last post) I won't waste time on this particular argument anymore.
That's the fundamental problem. It's one of separating and categorizing experiences (and I'm 100% guilty of doing this as well)... what purpose does it serve to do this? It simply creates even more of a divide in an already divided community.
I see categorizing things such as "dreams", "lucid dreams", "NDEs", or whatever as a self-imposed limitation. There's no reason what-so-ever to categorize these experiences in such a manner.
But yes, Summerlander tossing it in like it's a crouton in a salad (or in this case ANY food product LoL) might not be the best of situations and comes across as being... well, something less than desirable... I mean, I try to mention it only when it's applicable to the subject matter of the thread. LOL
I mean, the discussion here is the same discussion of "do I really need to state 'in my opinion' before I state my opinion?". State whatever you want to state, but try to put it in context of the subject of the thread. :)
Quote from: Summerlander on May 16, 2011, 04:34:41
Grey, you still haven't told me why one side of the coin is obnoxious and the other isn't. It's not about whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not. It's about whether or not OOBEs and LDs are the same. Hell, I've even had a normal dream that weeks later seems to have proved its precognitive nature! You are avoiding my question. Why are you so in favour of one view and not the other?
But really... (I'm being rhetoric here, but) why does that matter?
I'm happy that people are really just having experiences in the first place... regardless of how they categorize them. I mean, I'll toss out the thought to them that "Hey, maybe that experience which you just abruptly categorized as a Lucid Dream... isn't a Lucid Dream, but a full projection?", just something to HOPEFULLY get them opening their mind to the possibility that perhaps it really was more than "just" something.
But it's not the end-all-be-all of the experience. The
EXPERIENCE is the end-all-be-all of the experience. How someone interprets it isn't. :)
Quote from: Xanth on May 16, 2011, 09:09:25
But really... (I'm being rhetoric here, but) why does that matter?
yes
It really doesn't matter what we call it or what terms we conjure up. I just don't understand the "obnoxious" part. :roll:
Greetings
Summerlander And Xanth
Boy. Neither of you get this thing At All, do you.
Summerlander, you posted
QuoteGrey, you still haven't told me why one side of the coin is obnoxious and the other isn't. It's not about whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not. It's about whether or not OOBEs and LDs are the same. Hell, I've even had a normal dream that weeks later seems to have proved its precognitive nature! You are avoiding my question. Why are you so in favour of one view and not the other?
This tells me ALL I need to know in a nutshell.
Because it IS about
Quotewhether consciousness exists outside of the body or not.
Yes, that's right and Ill repeat it for your benefit, it IS about
Quotewhether consciousness exists outside of the body or not.
[/b]
I am going to do you both a BIG favor here and let you reply to this sentence.
So take a BIG breath and think awhile. Then come back with your best shot.
And, oh yes, Summerlander, MANY PEOPLE experience precognitive dreams. That IN NO WAY proves that all OBES = LDs.
Regards 8-)
Grey
OK boys, it's like the Shites and the Sunnies here - splitting hairs. I originally posted this topic so I'm going to give my two cents even though I'm a newcomer.
Many books/spiritual traditions/teachers talk about the fact we generate an astral body when we sleep that is separate from our physical selves and this is automatic, not a conscious separation. I've actual seen my husband's astral body hovering above his physical body when he sleeps so I think this could very well be true. So it's just a matter of semantics of whether we call it a LD or OOBE -- both happen when we are CONSCIOUS when the separation occurs (or become conscious later which is rarer in my experience).
Whether we feel the body lift out or not is inconsequential. It's our consciousness that is projecting, not our bodies. In fact, our larger 'higher self' isn't in our physical bodies anyway so we're just merging with the greater "all that is" where there is no spatial 3-D limitations. I've had hundreds approaching thousands of conscious LDs and OOBEs over the last 20 years and this is my humble opinion.
Grey
I think you missed the post after that one that I made to Summerlander...
Quotewhether consciousness exists outside of the body or not.
Quote from: Xanth on May 16, 2011, 09:09:25
But really... (I'm being rhetoric here, but) why does that matter?
Beyond personal opinion, it really doesn't matter. :)
Quote from: Jilt on May 16, 2011, 22:19:44
OK boys, it's like the Shites and the Sunnies here - splitting hairs.
Which was the point I was trying to make. :)
Grey,
OOBEs = Out of Body Experiences
It means that you experience being out of body but that doesn't make it so. The term is not affirming that we really do go out of body. It is very much a pragmatic term. Likewise, dreams can be regarded as out of body experiences in the sense that you are not aware of being in the body but rather, you have the sensation of being somewhere else which might as well be happening in your mind.
You tend to use the term "OOBEs" as though you know that you really go out of body. It doesn't really matter if you see someone's "astral body" hovering above the person's body. It doesn't mean that the astral essence is really there. Rather, it could be an interpretation or even a hallucination based on expectation. Our brains can play many tricks on us. The fact that we blink in our waking states means that a good few ours of the day goes unregistered and we all know about the brain's uncanny ability to make up what it doesn't know. I've had quite a few "validations" with this phenomena and still I don't dismiss other more mundane explanations because they could still explain what appears to be extraordinary.
Do yourself a favour and check out Raduga's perspective on www.obe4u.com. It's great stuff and it makes you consider other possibilities. In there, all is the same phenomenon, meaning "the Phase" = (OOBEs/AP/LD). It's all the Phase (not to be mistaken with Kepple's "Phase" technique).
Just because the sky meets the sea at the horizon doesn't make it so. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I'm quite lucky to be fickle in nature because it prompts me to consider other perspectives constantly. Anyone who's known me from AVers and eversince I decided to join these communities knows that I am constantly looking at things from different angles. The perspective you have now is the one I had at the beginning when I was excited and biased by the New Age interpretations. Now I look at things in a different way.
You are holding on to something for dear life because you simply want to believe in the perspective that you currently hold and this is causing you to abhor all other perspectives. No matter what you say, the distinctions you made can still be different ways of entering the same state no matter how different things may feel. You are forgetting the state is very much subjective.
I've had many so-called validations but I'm calling you out on any validations you may think you have which makes you 100% sure things are the way you say they are. I can give you a whole load of mundane explanations if you come up with something to the likes of what Jilt has just mentioned. That to me doesn't mean anything. There are so many explanations for ghost sightings, dopplegangers and the whole shebang during waking states.
Buhlman has written that there is a clear difference between an LD and an OBE.
That's a statement from someone who has his own experience to fall back on.
And to me, yes, that difference matters.
A pear is not an apple. :)
Quote from: Summerlander on May 17, 2011, 09:25:46
Do yourself a favour and check out Raduga's perspective on www.obe4u.com.
That's the thing though Summer... it's Raduga's perspective, it's your perspective, it's my perspective... it's not Grey's perspective. I can respect that.
As with my discussions with Pauli, I've really come to the conclusion (and I actually realized this just the other night in regards to myself LoL) that... everyone has to come to their own conclusions. I have no doubt that they'll eventually be forced, due to personal experience (ok maybe not in Pauli's case *ba da bum!* ^_~), to come to the same conclusion that you and I have.
But for now, there's no sense in pushing a perspective that really doesn't change much.
Quote from: Pauli2 on May 17, 2011, 09:34:36
Buhlman has written that there is a clear difference between an LD and an OBE.
That's a statement from someone who has his own experience to fall back on.
And to me, yes, that difference matters.
A pear is not an apple. :)
Buhlman...pffft!
I've got my own experience to fall back on and a head about me. Any arse-wiper can write fanciful stuff that will bring hope and a smile to the excited newbie.
Quote from: Xanth on May 17, 2011, 09:42:17
But for now, there's no sense in pushing a perspective that really doesn't change much.
No, there's definitely no sense in pushing it but there is also no sense in Grey shooting one perspective and saying it is obnoxious when it is mentioned. His perspective gets mentioned just as much and nobody here is saying it's obnoxious.
It's like me making certain distinctions about Mode 1 and Mode 2 OOBEs. One appears to be a Here-Now projection and perception appears to be unique. The other is an entrance into another realm where thoughts appear to have their own representational forms and emulate physical reality but can outshine it. Still, I don't claim to know for sure that this is so 100% when I know that there is also other valid theories that state that the Here-Now in the OOBE-state could still be an accurate simulation...possibly something closer to the physical realm than the Mode 2 environment but a representation of it nonetheless.
My point here is that, even though I hold my current views, I won't dismiss other theories or views provided that are not foolish, of course. I'm just saying. With this statement, I'm not saying that Grey's view in that OOBEs and lucid dreams are separate is foolish...no, I'm not saying that because he could be right...but, to me, it is just altered states of consciousness and they MAY well be part of the same phenomenon. You see, my use of the term "OOBE" is very pragmatic in that any state that gives me the impression that I am disassociated from the body IS that kind of experience. Even so, I still use the term "lucid dream" and I still use the term "OOBE" to let people know how such state has been entered. Which reminds me...
I had an OOBE today and I will post it soon. And when I mean "OOBE" I mean the one with the separation part which usually happens after vibrations... :-D
PS. That Darina still hasn't sent me a picture, btw... :roll:
Quote from: Summerlander on May 17, 2011, 09:59:10
Buhlman...pffft!
I've got my own experience to fall back on and a head about me. Any arse-wiper can write fanciful stuff that will bring hope and a smile to the excited newbie.
And for the most part, I agree with you. Someone being an author doesn't give them precedence.
Our personal experience trumps theirs, 100%... but it only trumps it personally.
QuoteNo, there's definitely no sense in pushing it but there is also no sense in Grey shooting one perspective and saying it is obnoxious when it is mentioned. His perspective gets mentioned just as much and nobody here is saying it's obnoxious.
I don't believe he was calling you obnoxious... (please correct me if I'm wrong, Grey ;)). I believe he was calling your constant repetition of your/our belief obnoxious, especially when it comes well outside the context of the subject of the thread.
QuoteMy point here is that, even though I hold my current views, I won't dismiss other theories or views provided that are not foolish, of course.
Nor should you. :)
But it's important to pick your battles, here and in life in general.
Sure. ;D
Quote from: Pauli2 on May 17, 2011, 11:34:14
degrading
Well, Summerlander's 'crudeness' aside... he's 100% correct.
Just about anyone can write their view of how they believe things to be in a book and get it published.
That doesn't make their opinion any more or less "correct".
By ignoring other possibilities, you're cutting yourself off to lots of potential sources of data.
I apologise for my crudeness, Xanth. 8)
As I was saying, Pauli2, the writers you admire may be interesting and right about many things but they are still human and have their own views. They may tell us about what they think and how things appear to them based on their beliefs but...it's their interpretation and things are not always what they seem.
You are as capable as them to draw your own conclusions and even challenge their views just like physicists today have challenged Einestein's theories on the nature of reality. See, even those who are considered to be great minds can be challenged.
Greetings
Summerlander
Of course you have a right to your own opinions.
Xanth is SPOT ON. He wrote
QuoteI don't believe he (Grey) was calling you obnoxious... (please correct me if I'm wrong, Grey Wink). I believe he was calling your constant repetition of your/our belief obnoxious, especially when it comes well outside the context of the subject of the thread.
Thanx Xanth. That is Exactly what I meant and you stated it quite correctly and understandably.
So I'm NOT going to get into an argument about this. It's belief Vs belief. And as I've stated elsewhere (in this thread and others) it's just a BIG waste of time.
Just be aware that if I see this OBEs = LDs argument posted in other threads (and I am SURE it will be) then I will post a short counter-argument, something along the lines of,
"Be aware that OBE are Not the same as LDs. OBEs take place outside the physical body. LDs, while non-physical in nature, do Not happen outside the physical body."That seems fair to me. If one person feels it necessary to post a personal opinion on this matter it IS fair for me to post an opposing viewpoint an equal number of times.
Like ads for opposition candidate during election time. No debate, just the promo for the opinion. :-D
Regards 8-)
Grey
Quote from: Greytraveller on May 17, 2011, 15:02:37
Just be aware that if I see this OBEs = LDs argument posted in other threads (and I am SURE it will be) then I will post a short counter-argument, something along the lines of,
"Be aware that OBE are Not the same as LDs. OBEs take place outside the physical body. LDs, while non-physical in nature, do Not happen outside the physical body."
That seems fair to me. If one person feels it necessary to post a personal opinion on this matter it IS fair for me to post an opposing viewpoint an equal number of times.
That's 100% fair!
And it's exactly how I operate... I wouldn't expect anything less from others. :)
I'd rather people just post "how they see things" (aka: their opinion), without having to fear of getting into a "MY BELIEF IS BETTER THAN YOUR BELIEF" discussion... because that's gonna take us everywhere. Rather, put all our cards out on the table and go from there.
Lexy said the same thing once (forgive me, but I forget the thread)... there's no sense in arguing stuff like this. Just say your piece and move on. :)
Okay! Fair enough. By the way, I never got round to posting my Mode 2 OOBE so I guess I'll do it tomorrow.
Hi Jilt, I couldn't help thinking that I was reading a computer game scenario as I read your description of your AP.
Have you played much computer games? I can see this in many peoples stories of AP experiences.
Cheers, djed
Quote from: Greytraveller on May 17, 2011, 15:02:37
Greetings
Summerlander
Of course you have a right to your own opinions.
Xanth is SPOT ON. He wrote
Thanx Xanth. That is Exactly what I meant and you stated it quite correctly and understandably.
So I'm NOT going to get into an argument about this. It's belief Vs belief. And as I've stated elsewhere (in this thread and others) it's just a BIG waste of time.
Just be aware that if I see this OBEs = LDs argument posted in other threads (and I am SURE it will be) then I will post a short counter-argument, something along the lines of,
"Be aware that OBE are Not the same as LDs. OBEs take place outside the physical body. LDs, while non-physical in nature, do Not happen outside the physical body."
That seems fair to me. If one person feels it necessary to post a personal opinion on this matter it IS fair for me to post an opposing viewpoint an equal number of times.
Like ads for opposition candidate during election time. No debate, just the promo for the opinion. :-D
Regards 8-)
Grey
Bottomline4 me, I dont consider it an obe unless Im actually aware of exiting my body. The whole little process.
Quote from: djed on May 18, 2011, 04:10:59
Hi Jilt, I couldn't help thinking that I was reading a computer game scenario as I read your description of your AP.
Have you played much computer games? I can see this in many peoples stories of AP experiences.
Cheers, djed
Djed, I don't play computer games (other than Scrabble) so all this animated computer game like imagery really feels outside of me - not something I'm conjuring. I got the impression that I wasn't meant to go where I was asking and these were little 'programs' keeping me out. Especially since I got the very same effect twice in a row. I had something similar happen once when I asked to visit an old boyfriend and I got an international symbol for a broken heart and a stop sign which meant he was off limits because I had broken his heart (understandable in retrospect).