The Astral Pulse

I've noticed that Tom Campbell is referenced quite a bit here. Maybe I'm venturing into dangerous waters but......

I don't really have so much a quarrel with the "nuts and bolts of how reality works" of his videos, but I find the his overall MBT view very disturbing and depressing. How we check out, meet a hologram representation of our loved ones for 15 minutes, before we are patted on the bottom and forcibly shipped down the reincarnation chute for another go-round at lowering entropy for the great cosmic consciousness like some poor cows at a massive dairy farm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmkPBrHwQWI

It also goes against the views of others, such as Frank Kepple and Jurgen Ziewe, who paint (for me anyway) a far more possibly pleasant view of reality, reincarnation and what really happens after physical death.

How do you guys see it?

I disagree with many of Tom's theories. I am not sure if he can fully AP. But remember that these are just theories. Actually no one knows exactly what happens. First, because our NP experiences are based on personal state of mind and beliefs. And second, because none of us have died and remembered what it was. Temporary focus in the NP while still possessing a physical vehicle is different than being completely dethatched from one.

Another argument is that time is completely different in the NP than here. Tom seems to not take this into consideration when he speaks about reincarnation.

I have interacted with my diseased father many times and that was not a hologram or created image by me. The conversations we had strongly suggest that his spirit's existence as him are in synch with my current situation here. So, however you want to look at the time factor between the physical and non-physical, I strongly believe that our loved ones are with us spiritually and will be reunited in the NP when we die, and there will be another journey on the other site for another transition whatever that is. So, don't get depressed over theories that people assume based on their own logic as humans living in the physical world.

Quote from: Ricochet on December 29, 2015, 16:39:57
I've noticed that Tom Campbell is referenced quite a bit here. Maybe I'm venturing into dangerous waters but......

I don't really have so much a quarrel with the "nuts and bolts of how reality works" of his videos, but I find the his overall MBT view very disturbing and depressing. How we check out, meet a hologram representation of our loved ones for 15 minutes, before we are patted on the bottom and forcibly shipped down the reincarnation chute for another go-round at lowering entropy for the great cosmic consciousness like some poor cows at a massive dairy farm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmkPBrHwQWI

It also goes against the views of others, such as Frank Kepple and Jurgen Ziewe, who paint (for me anyway) a far more possibly pleasant view of reality, reincarnation and what really happens after physical death.

Let me ask you this then... why do you find that particular perspective "disturbing and depressing"?

Essentially, the answer will tell you how YOU view this reality.  You're viewing all this from the perspective of an individual, physical human.  Reality, and consciousness as a whole, is so much more grand than that.  When you begin to see it as such, you'll begin to realize you role in everything and why "becoming Love" is so very important.

QuoteHow do you guys see it?

In a nutshell... I see everything as consciousness.  That "great cosmic consciousness" (as you put it) is as much YOU as it is ME.  Actually, we're both just small parts of it. 

QuoteLet me ask you this then... why do you find that particular perspective "disturbing and depressing"?

I'll give room that I may understand his "theory", but the short answer is because, according to him, my individual point of awareness is being used as a means to an end for the greater consciousness. Continually being recycled until I "get" what I am supposed to. Love is not a grand idea, but simply the most efficient way to lower entropy. All this for what? So finally my consciousness packet can just be reabsorbed or snuffed out entirely if I don't cooperate? I guess I'm not seeing the wonder in that.

I'm not sure myself as to how I view this reality. I would like to think of it as part/the beginning of a grand (infinite?) journey of evolution of consciousness. I realize at some point the ego and sense of self must go, some find some of that here in the physical. But to have no choice, to be duped, to be used; no, thats not my ideal of reality.

Quote from: Ricochet on December 29, 2015, 20:38:55
I'll give room that I may understand his "theory", but the short answer is because, according to him, my individual point of awareness is being used as a means to an end for the greater consciousness. Continually being recycled until I "get" what I am supposed to. Love is not a grand idea, but simply the most efficient way to lower entropy. All this for what? So finally my consciousness packet can just be reabsorbed or snuffed out entirely if I don't cooperate? I guess I'm not seeing the wonder in that.

I probably would have chosen different words and described it slightly different, but yeah, in a nutshell, that's about right.

What do you "want" to happen then? 

QuoteI'm not sure myself as to how I view this reality. I would like to think of it as part/the beginning of a grand (infinite?) journey of evolution of consciousness. I realize at some point the ego and sense of self must go, some find some of that here in the physical. But to have no choice, to be duped, to be used; no, thats not my ideal of reality.

But that's exactly what it is.  Your existence here *IS* part of a grand journey of the evolution of consciousness.

I see your confusion.  Tom isn't saying that you get duped or tricked into having these physical lives.  Through his perspective, you chose to come here.  This physical reality (and other realities like it) seem to be a "fast-track" for spiritual growth.  Yes, you can completely screw that up and end up, through your decisions, regressing spiritually... it happens.  But, on the whole, this reality provides the best and most direct way to spiritually grow.  How?  It happens through your interactions with other consciousnesses through a confined ruleset provided here.  You make a decision (either a love based or fear based choice) and see an outcome, then you have to live with that outcome based upon the decision you made.  THAT is your grand journey of the evolution of consciousness in action!  Live and in your face!  :)

But yeah, I don't believe for a second we're forced to experience anything.  I think you just have a small misunderstanding of Tom's MBT.  :) 

Let me back up just a bit and clarify for anyone who may be reading this.....I really have no clue what I'm talking about. :-) I'm formulating from outside any actual experience as I've never consciously APed or OBEd. I'm working on achieving lucidity in my dreams and hopefully exploring from there. I came here to gain insight and learn.

That being said, I'm not free of opinions and there are some things I think I think.  :-)

One is that there are more evidentiary sources that need to be taken into account. Much of after death contact, numerous NDE as well as OBE accounts seem to indicate that direct reincarnation is rare and/or the whole reincarnation process is not linear but rather all happening at once. What you are experiencing now is most likely a one-off. This directly contradicts Tom. Lightbeam's post factors in with this too.

I haven't ready any of his experiences and my understanding is that Tom doesn't share them. If true, why? That is definitely counter-intuitive.

QuoteWhat do you "want" to happen then?

That's difficult. I know it isn't about what I "want". Yet there are concepts we tend to naturally "receive" that "feel right". The MBT just doesn't resonate with me. Its easier to say what i don't want.  I don't want to be a consciousness packet shipped out to dutifully lower entropy for AIM and AUM and have my individuality discarded when I've served my purpose.

I think you should further explore, within yourself (no need to post here, it might take a long while), why those issues seem to bother you so.  :)
Even if they were true, those concepts don't bother me one bit.

In the end, I think the statement "To each their own" sums all of this up nicely.  :)

Quote from: Ricochet on December 30, 2015, 17:46:07
I haven't ready any of his experiences and my understanding is that Tom doesn't share them. If true, why? That is definitely counter-intuitive.

Tom doesn't share his experiences for the same reason that most experienced members here on the Astral Pulse Forums don't and that's because we don't want people to "mimic" and "expect" to see our experiences there. What you see is personal. It's what "you" need to see at this time in your evolution. If Tom told you he was first experiencing some kind of "tunnel. Many people would search for that tunnel, instead of seeing or experiencing what they "needed" to see. You never want to have "expectations" when you project. You just create the proper "atmosphere" needed to project and see what you see, go where you "need" to go.

I have shared a couple of things here on the Astral Pulse, but only as examples. Like the others here, I realize the importance of keeping things to ourselves.

We here at the Astral Pulse will help anyone that is serious to learn this "Art". We will give you tips to project. We will help you understand what you are seeing. You said you haven't projected yet, so this may be hard for you to understand. But once you do, you will realize what we are saying here. It completely gives you a different "mindset" on what is and what isn't. But you need to see it for yourself. Only then will you know. Please understand though my statement here isn't meant to "demean" you. It's only to help you understand.

Tom has helped me via email to understand some of the things that I experienced and I am grateful for that. I'm not "all in" on all of his theories. But I understand what he is saying.

Let me start by saying, this is a very interesting conversation! Thank you all for sharing:)

I've been reading Tom's Big TOE for some time now, bit by bit, so I don't get too overwhelmed.

I've got only one comment after reading this threat: perspective! We tend to approach ideas from human (i.e. intellectual) point of view and therefore it may be difficult to grasp intellectually some aspects of Big TOE. Intellect is only one of the tools that can be used to explore reality. There is so much more beyond that and using intellect to understand everything would be like applying Newton's laws on the quantum level: it simply doesn't work this way.

I wish all of us openness of the heart in exploration of the realities that don't belong to this world:)

QuoteWe here at the Astral Pulse will help anyone that is serious to learn this "Art". We will give you tips to project. We will help you understand what you are seeing. You said you haven't projected yet, so this may be hard for you to understand. But once you do, you will realize what we are saying here. It completely gives you a different "mindset" on what is and what isn't. But you need to see it for yourself. Only then will you know. Please understand though my statement here isn't meant to "demean" you. It's only to help you understand.

I get it, no problem. I do appreciate the discussion. As I said in the opening post, some of the "nuts and bolts of how things work" make sense to me as well. I wonder though, for those of you who are "all in" with the MBT, how you square this concept of love as just the most efficient means to an end vs the concept of love being purely altruistic. Meaning, are you OK with that?

QuoteIn the end, I think the statement "To each their own" sums all of this up nicely.

Do you feel that ultimate truth/reality/what really "is" is relative?

Quote from: Ricochet on December 31, 2015, 13:57:50
I wonder though, for those of you who are "all in" with the MBT, how you square this concept of love as just the most efficient means to an end vs the concept of love being purely altruistic. Meaning, are you OK with that?

Now, this is very interesting when you think about it. What does it mean to be altruistic? It is essentially helping other people in a selfless fashion, isn't it?. But why do you do that when you get nothing out of it? Well, you do it because you actually do get something out of it. And that is that you feel good doing it and so, by your words, it is "efficient" for you. You also love because it feels good, right? I mean, would anybody be altruistic if it didn't make them feel good? I don't really think so. And so, is it really selfless to love and be altruistic if you get a reward for it? So to say, is it really altruistic to be altruistic?  :-D

Happy New Year to everyone btw :-)

QuoteWhat does it mean to be altruistic? It is essentially helping other people in a selfless fashion, isn't it?. But why do you do that when you get nothing out of it? Well, you do it because you actually do get something out of it. And that is that you feel good doing it and so, by your words, it is "efficient" for you. You also love because it feels good, right? I mean, would anybody be altruistic if it didn't make them feel good? I don't really think so. And so, is it really selfless to love and be altruistic if you get a reward for it? So to say, is it really altruistic to be altruistic?

You make a good point, and I'd say that probably accounts for a substantial part of what we label "altruism". But if you are making the argument that nobody would "be altruistic if it didn't make them feel good" you are saying that we are incapable of truly selfless acts. That kind of sums up what disturbs me about the MBT. I read a lot about "unconditional love". Is it really unconditional if I (or the higher consciousness, whatever that may be) really do it only for a benefit?

My advice would be to take from TC's work what resonates with you and leave out the rest.

I like TC and have read his work about 6 years ago, 2010 or so. Since then I am an occational watcher of his talks and discussions on youtube. I am rarely posting on his forum even, although it is a bit boring there. The Pulse is better.  :-)

I also do not agree with everything he says or writes. I don't know even if he is a good or frequent APer since he mostly calls it all "meditation". Still, I believe as a long-time student of the TMI laboratory and colleague of R. Monroe he is very skilled moving and getting info in the non-physical, which he uses to gather his experiences and from which again he derived his theories and ideas. But these are HIS experiences. As he says by himself, you should make your own and ffrom that derive your own "Big Toe". That's why he called the book "MY big toe". It is subjective.

Once you have mastered the flitting around into different non physical environments and have the ability to stay in one for a while, some of Toms' explanations will show themselves as a personalised perspective expressed in a general way.
The hologram thing is to show you its all in 3D and not flat as many authors can give the impression.
I would like Tom to explain first person clairvoyant dreams with the basic analogy offered. It can't be done unless you've experienced it for yourself. It's almost like attempting to read a technical paper written in German with basics of the language. Some parts may be understood, the depth of the material will be missed or worse, misinterpreted.
I like Tom's generalisations but haven't read his big TOE.
I have my own and it changes with the complexity of my experiences.
The whole is so immense that it is incomprehensible to the human mind. Living in linear time being the largest obstacle.

Quote from: Szaxx on January 04, 2016, 21:43:38
I have my own and it changes with the complexity of my experiences.
The whole is so immense that it is incomprehensible to the human mind. Living in linear time being the largest obstacle.

This right here is soooooooooooooooooooo true. Just when you think what it going on there, everything changes. It is incomprehensible to the Human mind. The deeper you delve into it, the more bizarre everything gets.

Quote from: Ricochet on January 02, 2016, 17:18:27
You make a good point, and I'd say that probably accounts for a substantial part of what we label "altruism". But if you are making the argument that nobody would "be altruistic if it didn't make them feel good" you are saying that we are incapable of truly selfless acts. That kind of sums up what disturbs me about the MBT. I read a lot about "unconditional love". Is it really unconditional if I (or the higher consciousness, whatever that may be) really do it only for a benefit?

I don't really understand what feels so wrong to you about it. Every selfless act is motivated by something. Even when you do not directly feel elated, you kind of know it is the right thing to do and that makes you do it, because you then feel at least better if not good. If it was not that way, it would make no sense for anyone to do it. I am really not disturbed by that. Quite on the contrary. Imagine you did something really selfless and didn't feel anything after doing so. Would that not feel kind of hollow. So I do not see a motiviation fueling every single act of ours as a bad thing. That is, if the benefit you get out of it is mutual. Everyone is happy, so what is the matter.

Furthermore, I see the term "unconditional love" as you define it as kind of a nonsense. Love has to feel good, it just doesn't make sense to me for it not to. You might disagree that you can actually feel a lot of pain yourself by selflessly sacrificing your personal aganda to help someoone else. But I could say that the pain you are feeling might actually be about giving up the material values or your greed and, in bigger picture, also about personal development and the good feeling of doing something for others (and therefore yourself, if you go with the theory that we are all just one). So no, sorry, but that kind of love does not exist in my opinion and I don't see why I shouldn't be okay with that. :wink:

Try to prove me wrong, I am seriously intersted if you can come up with something that contradicts what I said above :-)

QuoteTry to prove me wrong, I am seriously intersted if you can come up with something that contradicts what I said above

I'm not really interested in proving you wrong, sorry :-)

Quote
Every selfless act is motivated by something. Even when you do not directly feel elated, you kind of know it is the right thing to do and that makes you do it, because you then feel at least better if not good. If it was not that way, it would make no sense for anyone to do it. I am really not disturbed by that. Quite on the contrary. Imagine you did something really selfless and didn't feel anything after doing so. Would that not feel kind of hollow. So I do not see a motiviation fueling every single act of ours as a bad thing. That is, if the benefit you get out of it is mutual. Everyone is happy, so what is the matter.

I agree that every selfless act is motivated by something and that that is not a bad thing. However "selfless" is defined as "having little concern for one's own interests". I am seeing a difference between extending a kindness (or whatever) based on what I benefit from it, i.e. "feeling good" "knowing I did the right thing" vs compassion/empathy and love for the other individual being the primary motivator. I'm not dissing feeling good about it at all, just saying that in my view its secondary. Thats what makes it "selfless"

I can help a little old lady across the street because I know it will make me feel good or because I have empathy and compassion for her predicament. Many times its probably both, agreed. Win-win. But if my benefit is the primary driver, its going to be easier to look the other way. It has to jostle with all of my other self interests at the moment. Is "feeling good" worth being 5 minutes late to the important job interview? Not today!  :wink:

Quote
Furthermore, I see the term "unconditional love" as you define it as kind of a nonsense.

I didn't define unconditional love, I just asked a question, so I'm not sure what you mean by this. I would like to see your definition though.  :-)

Quote from: BranStark on January 08, 2016, 12:43:00
I don't really understand what feels so wrong to you about it. Every selfless act is motivated by something. Even when you do not directly feel elated, you kind of know it is the right thing to do and that makes you do it, because you then feel at least better if not good. If it was not that way, it would make no sense for anyone to do it. I am really not disturbed by that. Quite on the contrary. Imagine you did something really selfless and didn't feel anything after doing so. Would that not feel kind of hollow. So I do not see a motiviation fueling every single act of ours as a bad thing. That is, if the benefit you get out of it is mutual. Everyone is happy, so what is the matter.

There's a big difference between a "selfless act" done to feel good and a "selfless act" done because it's the right thing to do.

You can usually tell within yourself which you're doing... generally speaking, if you have to THINK about the good act before you do it (in ANY capacity), then it's generally the former.  If you DON'T think, you simply act, then it's the latter.  Don't get me wrong though, as long as the Intent is positive, there is always room for spiritual growth.  For the most part, we all have to ACT nice before BEING nice becomes the norm for us.

Or as you put it... not feeling anything after doing something good is probably the ultimate act of selflessness.  The kicker being just that... it's the act of simply allowing everything to be as it is.

But in the end, there is a big difference between the two acts you and I mention above.  :)

QuoteFurthermore, I see the term "unconditional love" as you define it as kind of a nonsense. Love has to feel good, it just doesn't make sense to me for it not to. You might disagree that you can actually feel a lot of pain yourself by selflessly sacrificing your personal aganda to help someoone else. But I could say that the pain you are feeling might actually be about giving up the material values or your greed and, in bigger picture, also about personal development and the good feeling of doing something for others (and therefore yourself, if you go with the theory that we are all just one). So no, sorry, but that kind of love does not exist in my opinion and I don't see why I shouldn't be okay with that. :wink:

As most people do, you're confusing the emotion "love" with what people call "Unconditional Love".  They're NOT the same thing.  Unconditional Love has nothing to do with the emotion and has to do more with accepting "what is".  It's a language barrier issue more than anything else.

QuoteTry to prove me wrong, I am seriously intersted if you can come up with something that contradicts what I said above :-)

There's no need.  It's all opinion and perspective anyway.  You choose to take it on or you choose not to. 
Whatever YOU choose to do is meaningless as it doesn't effect me at all... it only effects YOU.  :)

Quote from: Ricochet on January 08, 2016, 14:09:19
I'm not really interested in proving you wrong, sorry :-)

I meant for the matter of discussion, not for the matter of feeling good beating me or anything, of course :wink:

Quote from: Ricochet on January 08, 2016, 14:09:19
I agree that every selfless act is motivated by something and that that is not a bad thing. However "selfless" is defined as "having little concern for one's own interests". I am seeing a difference between extending a kindness (or whatever) based on what I benefit from it, i.e. "feeling good" "knowing I did the right thing" vs compassion/empathy and love for the other individual being the primary motivator. I'm not dissing feeling good about it at all, just saying that in my view its secondary. Thats what makes it "selfless"

I can help a little old lady across the street because I know it will make me feel good or because I have empathy and compassion for her predicament. Many times its probably both, agreed. Win-win. But if my benefit is the primary driver, its going to be easier to look the other way. It has to jostle with all of my other self interests at the moment. Is "feeling good" worth being 5 minutes late to the important job interview? Not today!  :wink:

I agree, I just think that feeling good is an essential part of this. You can have little concern for your own interest, but then again, if that is the case, you eventually will feel good about helping people.
The example with the old lady is a good one. However, I think that it is about priorities. The former option is materialist-based, the latter more love-based, therefore... let's say better for the spiritual development or whatever. So again, both actions are motivated, it is just about you choosing which is more important to you. Either you choose to hurry to your interviw, but that is going to make you feel bad for the lady, or you help her out, come to the interview late and feel bad about it, but you know you helped her and that is going to make up for that. :-)

Quote from: Ricochet on January 08, 2016, 14:09:19
I didn't define unconditional love, I just asked a question, so I'm not sure what you mean by this. I would like to see your definition though.  :-)

Fair enough, I probably misunderstood you. It is hard to "define" anything like that, I just think (maybe unlike you) that unconditional love still feels good even though you might not seek that feeling at all. It is just like the concept of Nirvana. It is about dissociating yourself from emotional ego-based load completely, but in the end, it is supposed to be blissful. I hope you get what I am trying to say :-)

Quote from: Xanth on January 08, 2016, 15:27:07
There's a big difference between a "selfless act" done to feel good and a "selfless act" done because it's the right thing to do.

You can usually tell within yourself which you're doing... generally speaking, if you have to THINK about the good act before you do it (in ANY capacity), then it's generally the former.  If you DON'T think, you simply act, then it's the latter.  Don't get me wrong though, as long as the Intent is positive, there is always room for spiritual growth.  For the most part, we all have to ACT nice before BEING nice becomes the norm for us.

Or as you put it... not feeling anything after doing something good is probably the ultimate act of selflessness.  The kicker being just that... it's the act of simply allowing everything to be as it is.

But in the end, there is a big difference between the two acts you and I mention above.  :)

Again, I don't think there is that much of a difference.  :wink: If you feel something is the right thing to do and you do it, you feel good. If it also includes something unpleasant too, it has to do with ego, nothing else. So again, it is benefitial to you in the sense of development. :-)

Yes you can also feel good about doing something greedy, but that is ego stuff again and not what I meant really.

The act of allowing everything to be as it is.... well, fair enough. I will again use the nalaogy to Nirvana. Buddhists seek the cessation of all ego-based feelings. And by doing so, they are supposed achieve that blissful state. So I would say that if you succeed in achieving that kind of state where you are just an observer and are dettached from eveything, you will probably feel pretty good, perhaps not in the usual emotional sense that we know as you would be dettached form emotion as well, but somehow else. For that matter, when I for example help someone, the feeling that comes along with it is not really an emotion. It is hard to describe but I think you know that feeling too. You just feel it was right and you feel good. And these tho feelings are not separate, they are the same thing and they are kind of devoid of any emotional load. It is hard to describe but I think you know that feeling too.

Quote from: Xanth on January 08, 2016, 15:27:07
As most people do, you're confusing the emotion "love" with what people call "Unconditional Love".  They're NOT the same thing.  Unconditional Love has nothing to do with the emotion and has to do more with accepting "what is".  It's a language barrier issue more than anything else.

Again, I didn't mean that greedy kind of love that is in fact not love at all but rather ego. And again, what does the  accepting "what is" feel like?  :-)

Quote from: Xanth on January 08, 2016, 15:27:07
There's no need.  It's all opinion and perspective anyway.  You choose to take it on or you choose not to.  
Whatever YOU choose to do is meaningless as it doesn't effect me at all... it only effects YOU.  :)

As I have said, I meant is as a kind of a challenge for further discussion. I don't really care who is right or wrong. I just just find the conversation entertaining and... well not sure if benefitial, so I will just go with entertaining.  :-D Sorry I didn't make myself clearer  :wink:

Quote from: BranStark on January 08, 2016, 21:06:16
Again, I don't think there is that much of a difference.

I'm not sure I can say this without sounding like an donkey's behind LoL, so please forgive me... but, that's because you simply don't understand.
It's the difference between ACTING good and BEING good.  But meh, in the sense of as long as you're doing good, it doesn't really matter THAT much.

One is done as part of the journey, and one is done after the journey has been completed (for the most part).

Ok I want to get in on this!

Ricochet I get you on the TC stuff. He kind of tires me out watching him. His slowness and the way he's aloof and sharp at the same time. Some things he says, I like and somethings, I don't. I don't like when he says the wider reality is "finite". But what do I know?

The whole selflessness thing is an interesting topic. There's something to consider and that is the mind and body have different motivations but are linked. The body is the expression of life itself and is truth in motion. The mind cannot be that truth. If it stands still to be in unison with the body, it ceases to observe, therefore ceasing to be, and the body cannot function without the mind. I think the body is the feel good part of love. The body's function is to survive and procreate, it has no good or bad or selflessness, it is life itself. It is physical and in that sense, It is immortal, as long as there is a physical universe. There is no death for it, just change.

Without the body and as a point of consciousness your motivations don't matter because all your interactions are essentially with yourself. If I help a little old lady across the street in my dream, even if it is a lucid dream, I'm only helping myself across the street. Like you I have not projected to the astral proper, or have not been aware enough to perceive it yet, so I cannot speak for the wider reality, but I imagine it is an extension of dreaming, an extension of me.

And to that end I am starting to get the feeling that I am me no matter what and the reason some of TC's stuff bugs me a little is it doesn't fit into my fantasy of what the afterlife may be or what enlightenment may be or WHATEVER IT IS I WANT TO BE... THAT I AM NOT NOW. The thing is... I will only ever be WHAT I AM now.

Quote from: Bluebird on January 12, 2016, 21:10:58
I will only ever be WHAT I AM now.

That's a cop-out and I get the feeling you know it.

You are a consciousness playing the part of a human being, correct.  But, you have the power to mould that human being.
You can be a good person or a bad person, or anywhere in between.  Whatever suits your fancy and your spiritual goals.

It's cool Ricochet, I never dug Tom Campbell either.

Quote from: personalreality on January 14, 2016, 23:29:04
It's cool Ricochet, I never dug Tom Campbell either.

LE GASP!  :)

No worries, I still love ya.  ;)

Definitely good to see ya back!

Quote from: Xanth on January 14, 2016, 23:58:37
LE GASP!  :)

right?!

i'm shocked too.

Thanks guys for a great discussion.

QuoteThere's something to consider and that is the mind and body have different motivations but are linked. The body is the expression of life itself and is truth in motion. The mind cannot be that truth. If it stands still to be in unison with the body, it ceases to observe, therefore ceasing to be, and the body cannot function without the mind. I think the body is the feel good part of love. The body's function is to survive and procreate, it has no good or bad or selflessness, it is life itself. It is physical and in that sense, It is immortal, as long as there is a physical universe. There is no death for it, just change.

Bluebird, I'm not sure I understand your thought, maybe too deep for me!  :-) I've been listening to an interesting podcast recently and I found it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKXxg3tuCbI  Fascinating discussion of the material/consciousness issue from a little different perspective.

Yea, I knew I was probably going to mis-communicate my ideas.

QuoteI will only ever be WHAT I AM now

Quote from: Xanth on January 13, 2016, 12:23:46
That's a cop-out and I get the feeling you know it.

I think you misunderstood me.
The "now" I am talking about is the "now" in the future. So whatever you become, you will be that in the future "now". Growing spiritually, becoming better or worse, is only relative to what you are in the present moment. And the present moment is always. This is the state of conflict the mind is always in. Wanting to be something it is not.
That's all I was trying to say. I am feeling this conflict more and more. I'm becoming more aware of it. I'm accepting what the mind really is and spending a lot less energy trying to change it.

In fact, that why I shifted my focus away from meditation and the search for enlightenment, to exploring dreams and the astral plane. Enlightenment is not of the mind and therefore unattainable, because we are the mind. In other words there is no hope for us. This is not a bad thing if accepted. Yes there are a few in history that gained the state of truly existing in the moment, but I believe that is more a freak of nature type of thing, rather that an obtainable goal for 99.9% of humanity.
Believe me, I was brought up by hippies, been to India, lived at a yoga retreat center for years etc. I have lived with people who have meditated for 20+ years living the most holistic lifestyle, and they were not any happier or more at peace than friends I had who had no spiritual aspirations at all.
I'm not saying meditation is worthless. It will definitely help you to feel better and regulate your emotions, but so will jogging.

I'm a little disappointed in myself for thinking I knew the answer for so long, and therefore felt a bit superior to people of more traditional religions. I knew that we are all one, as I was going to meditate my way to the unity of the universe and transcend this measly little world and escape all the pain and feel the bliss of cosmic consciousness and blah blah blah. Hope is all I had. The exact same hope the Christian has to go to heaven and hang with Jesus.

My point is the mind is the mind is the mind. There's no way out. What I like about astral projection is it is a form of mind training like judo, magic, painting, sports etc. Although it can be perceived as a spiritual practice the goals are very worldly. Pleasure, excitement, discovery. But like Frank says, you are who you are in the astral. You don't become some higher better being.

Which leads me back to, I am who I am... and will ever be.

Lol, but the best thing is, I'm pretty sure I have no idea what is really happening here. And I'm ok with that.

Quote from: Ricochet on January 15, 2016, 14:01:17
Thanks guys for a great discussion.

Bluebird, I'm not sure I understand your thought, maybe too deep for me!  :-)

Not too deep, too obvious I think, and I'm not explaining it right.

I'm trying to say the body is a momentary entity while the mind exists in the past and future. Truth is whatever the moment presents. Everything else is speculation. The mind can only speculate, judge, observe. That's what I mean by the body is an expression of life. Like a rock, a tree, water...anything physical is life happening, the mind is just the witness. There is no selflessness or selfishness in the moment, everything just is. The mind will act selflessly or selfishly if it thinks it will ultimately experience less pain or more pleasure. There's no other reason for the mind to do anything in relation to the body. The body itself doesn't experience pleasure or pain. it just has sensory impulses. The mind translates these impulses and judges them as pleasurable or painful. The mind can, an has, learned to experience pain as pleasure and the other way around.

So does it even matter if you do something selflessly or selfishly? In order to maintain our body vessels for our minds to ride in, I think there has to be a balance between the two but ultimately every human action is selfish. But maybe something was done selfishly but ended up having consequences for humanity that were beneficial? what is it then? Again all this is mind based. It is not truth.
And I'm sure there are all kinds of contradictions in what I just said.

OMG I'm probably starting to sound crazy now. You know your crazy when... the people on an astral projection forum think your crazy!

Quote from: Bluebird on January 16, 2016, 23:35:18
Yea, I knew I was probably going to mis-communicate my ideas.

I think you misunderstood me.
The "now" I am talking about is the "now" in the future. So whatever you become, you will be that in the future "now". Growing spiritually, becoming better or worse, is only relative to what you are in the present moment. And the present moment is always. This is the state of conflict the mind is always in. Wanting to be something it is not.
That's all I was trying to say. I am feeling this conflict more and more. I'm becoming more aware of it. I'm accepting what the mind really is and spending a lot less energy trying to change it.

Your overthinking of this is going to drive you insane.

As much as you're consciousness... you're a consciousness who is playing the part of a physical human being caught in the web of time within this physical reality.
You're stuck on the concept of "time" as it relates non-physically to you.  That's what you can't seem to wrap your head around... what you are "now" is different from what you'll be in a second from now, or a minute from now, or a year... you're NEVER the same.

The only state of conflict is the one you've created for yourself.  Step back and you'll see it.  Then take a step back again and just accept "you are" and move on.  Any further consideration of it, as I said before, will drive you insane.  Unless you're going for that, then by all means, go nuts.  ;)

I think we are talking about two different states. Yes, the physical is always changing. But the non-physical is not within time. Your soul, spirit, essence, or whatever is non physical and therefore eternal and never changing because there is no time too change in. Don't you feel like, the you, the inner you when you were a teenager is the same inner you as it is now? Is the same inner you as in a dream? Yes life circumstances have changed, you have changed physically and mentally (knowledge wise), but the core, who you really are, is constant. Ultimately you are a personality or you are not. You are part of the experiential duality or you are not.

I'm not trying to tell or teach anyone anything, just sharing what I've been experiencing and discovering about myself lately. I've been discovering my changeless self, which I feel is giving me more sanity...I worry less about my mortality.

Nope.  Me "now" is completely and utterly different from the me "then". 

The "core" of who you are *IS* what changes.  That's what spiritually grows.  Spirituality has nothing to do with the "physical" or the "mental".
The physical "you", which you are right now (aka: the meat body you see in the mirror) DOES NOT go with you when you pass on from this reality. 
The only thing that moves on is that "core".  THAT is what grows, that is what you're here to effect change within.

Take a look around: everything you see, feel, know (physically speaking) disappears into nothingness when you die.  It's all part and parcel part of this reality.  It was all created when you were born INTO this reality.  The intangible parts of you, the parts we have a hard time describing (the non-physical parts), that is what goes with you.  Essentially, the Love... what you've learned on the level beyond everything physical.  Yes, it's outside of this physical reality, but that doesn't mean it's outside of time.  Time exists in more than just this reality.  Time is what effects change.  Without time there is no change. 

You've entirely missed the point of the journey.

Quote from: Xanth on January 19, 2016, 00:19:14
You've entirely missed the point of the journey.

Lol, That's pretty presumptuous don't you think? Could it be possible that what I'm trying to say, might be something you will come to know as your journey progresses?

Who you are changes in the physical world. You're not the same as you were 40 years previously.
Your NP personality is different from your physical one. We are ever changing due to the physics of the environment we percieve ourselves in. You'll understand far more later in life, I've 50+ years of NP explorations to add to the deduction. The core you is the same as its the concious self. How it reacts to the environment its in seems fairly rigid if you compare all your experiences. Each environment has its limitations and some have no form, they're a state of mind in essence. These in particular are that pleasant you don't want to wake up back in the physical.
As you're starting to see a little of the whole, you could liken it to having a lamp that lights up your surroundings. It can't light up distant objects but you can form a map of sorts. It'll only be in two dimensions though. The NP is far more complicated as its all and nothing simultaneously.
No form, no time and a connection to everything is impossible to describe.
You as a singular concious person doesn't exist too if you manage to connect to the whole. It's a totally new ball game and seems rare to experience.

Szaxx:

If you care to answer: based on your experiences/map, what do you expect to happen when you cross over? Is it advisable to expect something?

From what I have managed to cobble together, the "generic" view is that reincarnation is not linear and our separate personality experiences it relatively few times, unlike what Campbell says. Rather, it is the Higher Self that sends out more "copies" of itself. After we die, we move on and evolve through many more dimensions and eventually merge in some way with the God/Source. I can see with this the necessity of growing out of belief systems and the possibility of personal hells as we work through what we have experienced in this life.

I understand that is probably the "childs version" but is it in any way accurate?

Quote from: Szaxx on January 21, 2016, 17:12:23
Who you are changes in the physical world. You're not the same as you were 40 years previously.

Yes, this is of course is what I have experienced.

Quote from: Szaxx on January 21, 2016, 17:12:23
The core you is the same as its the conscious self. How it reacts to the environment its in seems fairly rigid if you compare all your experiences.

I think this is what I'm trying to communicate. This is what I meant when I said "the teenage you is the same as the you now". Not in the physical or experiential sense, but in the core sense.

Quote from: Szaxx on January 21, 2016, 17:12:23
No form, no time and a connection to everything is impossible to describe.
You as a singular conscious person doesn't exist too if you manage to connect to the whole. It's a totally new ball game and seems rare to experience.

Yes! and what I am starting to understand and feel, is that piece of the whole that is within me and constant. That is what I mean when I said "Ultimately you are a personality or you are not. You are part of the experiential duality or you are not."

Thanks Szaxx, I have a hard time explaining things sometimes. Its just exciting for me to realize the eternal nature of my core. Letting the physical or NP circumstances dance around me. Bathing in change and experience but being rooted in the whole and eternal.

So with this in mind, I don't need to know the answer to to the question that Ricochet is asking. Of course I would like to know if there was a definitive answer! But its less important to me knowing all experiences and states of existence circle around the unchanging, eternal core that we all are. The individual personality and sense of self IS the changing and experiencing. The core is the one constant.

QuoteSo with this in mind, I don't need to know the answer to to the question that Ricochet is asking.

But Ricochet needs to know! :-D

For me ive come to realize that the true self is unchangable. But most people indentify themselfs by the things that change i.e. Body thoughts emotions beliefs and habits. And since things that change cant be real or truth .all of manifested creation is realized as just a delusion and the true self is realized as the no-thing behind all manifestation, thats ever blissful  omniscient omnipotent and wisdom its self. i like mbt but i think he makes life seem a bit to mechanical n not enough beauty.

When one realizes himself as the no-thing  that contains all things including desires and emotions you realize that there cant be any desire or experience that you havnt fufilled its only the ego/mind that desires things but will never be satisfied  because thers nothing in creation that could make you eternaly blissful and satisfied , only the discovery of the true self will do that

Our true self is made in the image of god or watever you want to call it. But through ignorance weve triked ourselfs into thinking we are the limited bodys and personalitys. Its only through introspection and effort to change ourselfs and live from truth love and wisdom  , that we can clear away the dirt from the window of our soul and start to shine the light of our true divine self through and inspire others to do the same

A normal man can help many , but a man who reforms himself will reform millions

I can only share from my own experience, but the CORE of who I am is nothing like the CORE of who was I was even 5 years ago (to a much lesser degree, even YESTERDAY).  I'm not talking physical me... I'm talking strictly about the non-physical me, although through that core, my physical HAS changed completely as well.

Ever since my early to mid teen years I've had a sense that I wasn't going to make it out of my 30's alive (I'm 36 right now, so I'm doing pretty good so far).  I was positive that I'd be dead by now, but I eventually came to realize what that feeling was... it wasn't a physical death at all, it was a spiritual death and rebirth.  It was a complete change of who I was not on a physical level but beyond that (the "core" me) and I completely feel it now when I compare myself now to that older me.

So you can see that at no point can I ever think that the core of us is the same... that core change is the very reason for why we're here in the first place.  It's in one state when you're born into this reality and when you leave, through the choices and the Intent behind those choices, hopefully it's different in a positive sense. 

And your experience is just as valid as mine. But we are looking at things differently. You can see a progression and development, I can not.

What is your ultimate outcome? What are you changing into? When you say "hopefully it's different in a positive sense." What does "positive" even mean? Are you moving forward? To where?

You seem to think you are becoming something. I'm saying you are already everything you want to become. But in order to experience anything, you have to forget your everything. So I guess your changing, is really remembering.

And if you finally remember who you really are, like Szaxx said...

QuoteYou as a singular conscious person doesn't exist too if you manage to connect to the whole. It's a totally new ball game and seems rare to experience.

So a movement forward would actually be a movement towards the annihilation of the individual you. Experience ends. Duality ends.

Kind of a bummer...and that's why we all (the individual you's) continue to play the game of "getting" somewhere. But the "getting" is all we do because there's nowhere to go.

Quote from: Ricochet on January 21, 2016, 19:41:29
But Ricochet needs to know! :-D

I'm sorry Ricochet! I didn't mean to hijack your question. I hope Szaxx gives you an answer.
But I wonder, if he confirms everything you thought. Would you stop questioning it? :-D

Quote from: Bluebird on January 22, 2016, 15:56:55
And your experience is just as valid as mine. But we are looking at things differently. You can see a progression and development, I can not.

What is your ultimate outcome? What are you changing into? When you say "hopefully it's different in a positive sense." What does "positive" even mean? Are you moving forward? To where?

You seem to think you are becoming something. I'm saying you are already everything you want to become. But in order to experience anything, you have to forget your everything. So I guess your changing, is really remembering.

And if you finally remember who you really are, like Szaxx said...
So a movement forward would actually be a movement towards the annihilation of the individual you. Experience ends. Duality ends.

Ahhhhhhhh, I think I understand what you mean now.

Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens a lot LoL), but it seems to me that you're trying to say that our consciousness is already in a perfect state before coming here... it becomes (maybe that's the wrong word too) "imperfect" upon being born here... and then regardless what happens, the moment you return to "there" (aka: you physically die), you become that perfect state again.  So what you're saying is that the core you is always what it is and the physical you just needs to realize it?

Yes, it's a sense of "becoming" (moving "forward" towards) something more than you are in terms of "Love" (not to be confused for the emotion "love" - they're completely separate concepts).  We humans don't really have a word or a description for it, so we have to use our imperfect language to do this - and that's where the massive confusion comes in.  Hence why you get a lot of "hippie" terms such as "moving towards Love" or "becoming Love". 

One could say that "enlightenment" is the process by which you realize that you already are "Love" and you just have to learn to get your consciousness out of the way of that process.  Which is, in a nutshell, what I think you're getting at.  Adyashanti calls the active part of that concept as "allowing everything to be as it is". 

QuoteKind of a bummer...and that's why we all (the individual you's) continue to play the game of "getting" somewhere. But the "getting" is all we do because there's nowhere to go.

It's not really a bummer... it is simply what it is.  The way I see it, when you physically die here... as I said before, the physical you and everything physical about you ceases to exist.  Whatever happens to what remains after all that physicalness is stripped away... well then, I guess that's the real big question.  It's not really one I worry about though.  :)

QuoteBut I wonder, if he confirms everything you thought. Would you stop questioning it?

No. But it would be one more puzzle piece than I have now.

Quote from: Xanth on January 22, 2016, 18:37:23

Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens a lot LoL), but it seems to me that you're trying to say that our consciousness is already in a perfect state before coming here... it becomes (maybe that's the wrong word too) "imperfect" upon being born here... and then regardless what happens, the moment you return to "there" (aka: you physically die), you become that perfect state again.  So what you're saying is that the core you is always what it is and the physical you just needs to realize it?

Kind of, and I'm not trying to be difficult, but "consciousness" or being "aware" is imperfection. Your state of existence, be it physical or non-physical doesn't really matter. Being able to experience anything (physical or non-physical) is a disconnect from the changeless core. Its a denial of it.

Quote from: Xanth on January 22, 2016, 18:37:23
Yes, it's a sense of "becoming" (moving "forward" towards) something more than you are in terms of "Love" (not to be confused for the emotion "love" - they're completely separate concepts).  We humans don't really have a word or a description for it, so we have to use our imperfect language to do this - and that's where the massive confusion comes in.  Hence why you get a lot of "hippie" terms such as "moving towards Love" or "becoming Love".

But there really is no difference between the ultimate perfect love we humans can't describe and the emotional hippie love. As an experiential individual, that is just a judgment based on your experience. In the unchanging eternity, there are no levels of love to judge. It is all. There is no better or worse or movement towards anything.

So there is no difference between the the murderer and the saint. And again, there's no where to go, nothing to advance to, nothing to transform into.
Going, advancing, transforming as actions are what this life is about, we can agree on that, but it doesn't matter which direction you do any of those things in.

Quote from: Xanth on January 22, 2016, 18:37:23
One could say that "enlightenment" is the process by which you realize that you already are "Love" and you just have to learn to get your consciousness out of the way of that process.  Which is, in a nutshell, what I think you're getting at.  Adyashanti calls the active part of that concept as "allowing everything to be as it is".

Yes, and that is what is sold to everyone in the new-age spiritual marketplace. Its what is sold as an alternative to the old-age religious product. But its the same thing, just a fancier way of saying it. "There's something better... In the future".

The ego likes this game of moving towards is own destruction but never allowing itself to get there. Judging the best way to do it along the way, and trying to convince other egos that its way, is the best way!

Quote from: Xanth on January 22, 2016, 18:37:23
It's not really a bummer... it is simply what it is.  The way I see it, when you physically die here... as I said before, the physical you and everything physical about you ceases to exist.  Whatever happens to what remains after all that physicalness is stripped away... well then, I guess that's the real big question.  It's not really one I worry about though.  :)

And this is the best attitude to have. What happens is not to be worried about.
At the beginning of all this when I said I was seeing my mind for what it was and not trying to change it so much anymore, That's what I meant. Accepting my experience, living my life, being me. And trying not to worry about it! :-D

QuoteWhatever happens to what remains after all that physicalness is stripped away... well then, I guess that's the real big question.  It's not really one I worry about though.

Quote
And this is the best attitude to have. What happens is not to be worried about.

William Buhlman seems to disagree with you two.  :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0isS9nC4dZ4

The point of life for me Is to reunite the motion bound soul with the motionless infinite source  and whan you get the experience of that you realize what it means to express the perfect qualitys of spirit or source. But after that experience you open your eyes and your back to just you.  But its an. Amazing feeling because then your whole life becomes about changing your outer self (the feeling of indaviduality and free will)  to reflect that inner perfectness  that you know exists 

Worrying about things doesnt help tho but that doesnt mean to ignore things , it means to calmy observe and understand yourself and choose which seeds you want growing in the soil of your mind

The core is your very existence itself. It has to be consciously aware or it can't exist. For the sense of individuality, a state of awareness unconnected to anything has to be accepted. This state can be experienced in very rare circumstances. If you've ever had an illness that took you out of the physical world you'd understand. It's a sense of awareness in total blackness. You have your sense of who you are and all memories etc. You won't have any of your worldly senses input, just a concious point of existence. This is one part of the core, at present its filled with the alpha state life existance you're in (your developed physical world personality). Most often its accepted as the 'you within', however this is the only contents you'd normally know of. In the NP things are different as the core can be emptied of memories or otherworld memories imprinted within. There's also the input via telepathy in the formless environments, some are pure colour while others are without any. These are more of a mental state of existence where you become an idea or another's viewpoint during an argument. Words fail to describe this properly. Going deeper into the core where the many personalities exist you are close to the source. You can connect and become all or nothing, words fail here too. This requires a massive flow of data in and out that's found in an imprint or I think rote someone else calls them. These are an instant flash of knowledge that can contain every single detail of each day of your life. Our minds cannot interpret the info at the speed it appears to come. There's no problem accepting this into the core as its natural to it, the recall or interpretation of the data needs to be time released and referenced to things you know of in the present existance.
If you manage to connect to all the cores the knowledge is immense. It is everything from our spec of a universe to so many incomprehensible whatever's they are.
We are nowhere near developed enough to connect fully. The best we can do is to sense another core and by using desire, we can feel things pertinent to them. Even this is a rare thing to experience however it is known of.
Summarising, the core is the source of our existence no matter what environment we are in/from. It's also part of the source itself in perhaps a reflective way.
If we take all our knowledge and use it to power a light, it would equal one candle. If we took a microseconds knowledge at the source it would be a sun bigger than the known universe.
Even then that's an underestimate.
I'll read the above posts again and see if any specific questions need answering.
There is so much that words fail to explain once you're in the NP.

I really like readin your posts szaxx your ideas are always. Very intriguing . When you say experience all or nothing i totaly kno wat you mean but for me its not nothiing its no-thing that every thing exists in

But your rite its almost impossible to express in words because its a intuitive basrd feeling an the intalectusl mind can nver understand it because its jst to much. . Its like trying to tell someone wat a rose smells like
To tell some one to think or concieve Of sometthing beyond all manifestation in every sence of the word is hard to comprehand for most ppl  but when you can experience the motionless state of the soul body and mind , the all pervading loving intelagince underlying all that is  makes itself known and not before that. , thats when the game of life truely starts

Quote from: Szaxx on January 23, 2016, 00:22:42
The core is your very existence itself. It has to be consciously aware or it can't exist. For the sense of individuality, a state of awareness unconnected to anything has to be accepted.

Szaxx your entire post was very good, as usual!  :-)

I have come to a conclusion and this is my own personal opinion or understanding that what we experience seems to come through whatever vessel we find ourselves in at the moment. I think every one of these vessels has a mind that acts as a filter and that consciousness itself has to penetrate this filter as well. Once it does, it gets whatever programming/teachings that you have experienced during your lifetime here. But the fact that you are in essence pure consciousness itself is one of the things that this "filter" blocks. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to experience anything the way that you do here. You need to have some form of "amnesia" to be able to experience anything anew.

I have become aware in my Dreams many times whereas in whatever one of the many Universes, aka Multiverses" I have found myself in, the personality that I had was completely different from my personality here. That would show me that my "mental conditioning" or let's say the way I was brought up or whatever I learned in that existence had to do completely with the way my "current" personality in that existence actually was. I know that sounds confusing, but like I said, this is what I have personally experienced myself and perhaps because I have written it here, some others people might understand this concept and have also experienced this as well.

This only comes though when I am conscious of being in a "vessel" and it shows through the predicaments that I find myself in when I first become consciously aware in my Dreams. It also shows in where I live, the people I find myself surrounded by and all kinds of things. All of these circumstances being completely different from my current life in this reality.

Then there comes the times when I become aware I am when I am just a singular point of consciousness. In these there is no need for a personality, because there is no actual "vessel" as in physical body of any form being used. The "core" as Szaxx put it doesn't show the characteristics of an incarnate body. It just "is". When you find yourself aware as this, you can't explain it in Human terms, because you aren't experiencing a Human or physical reality anymore. You don't really even find yourself in a place per say. You just "are". Terms like "is" and "just are" may not help people understand this further, but they are the only words that I can find that really explain it.  

So I think our "filter" or mind per say, works just like a computer. We have seen computers being upgraded through the years, but we have also been witnessing that "upgrade" in the Human equation as well. Why does a insect not show the intelligence of a Human? It all has to do with the size and capability of the filter/computer and what their current "vessel" will be physically able to do. Are they conscious as well? Does every living thing have consciousness or is it more like is every either living or thing period consciousness itself? These things we will never know until one day we find ourselves again devoid of any kind of "vessel" and just "are" once more. I find it very difficult to stay in that mode through conscious projecting, lucid dreaming, OBEs, whatever form of shifting is being currently experienced at the moment for any length of time. But once you do experience even briefly, you know you just experienced something incredibly awesome and pretty well impossible to explain. We can only use "adjectives" to describe it.

I don't think it's being experienced via NDEs though. I think the person that is having the NDE is still too close to their current physical live and it's mindset and conditioning, as in beliefs and things like that, to be able to experience what it's like to just "be" again. Sometimes their current mental conditioning and mindset in general follows them for a quite awhile before they finally "allow" a new mindset to take it's place. But with other people like Monks, Yogi's, etc that have been mentally conditioned to release the physical mindset, the transition to just "being" is easier to achieve. This is why I agree whole heartedly with William Buhlman's approach. Mentally condition yourself now so when the time comes you are prepared and can be able to "navigate" through what comes next.

Quote from: Xanth on January 22, 2016, 18:37:23
Whatever happens to what remains after all that physicalness is stripped away... well then, I guess that's the real big question.  It's not really one I worry about though.  :)

Quote from: Bluebird on January 22, 2016, 19:45:22
And this is the best attitude to have. What happens is not to be worried about.

Quote from: Ricochet on January 22, 2016, 21:34:02
William Buhlman seems to disagree with you two.  :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0isS9nC4dZ4

Then by all means, worry about it. Do something about it. Perhaps in some years you will come to believe something else and worry about that. So your life becomes worrying, searching, and doing. Sounds like your not alone. Sounds like me!

Quote from: Bluebird on January 23, 2016, 16:54:00
Then by all means, worry about it. Do something about it. Perhaps in some years you will come to believe something else and worry about that. So your life becomes worrying, searching, and doing. Sounds like your not alone. Sounds like me!

That should say "Don't worry about it, instead do something about it". There is no need to worry. Your life is all about experiencing and reacting to said experiences. The way you react shows whether or not you received the true message from the experience or not.

Some hear about Astral Projection and think "wow this would be cool to do". They put a weekend of work into it, see no results and move on to the next "flavor of the day". Others awaken to it and see it for all it can offer. They learn everything they can about and apply the time and effort that it takes to be successful with it and still others will go for the "full Monty". They will attempt to delve as deep as they can. They will learn how to be somewhat proficient in navigating the new realms they find themselves in. They will engage in grounding techniques to lengthen their own "other realm" experiences. They may even go as far as reaching out to teach others as many people on the Astral Pulse do. It all has to do with your current mindset and if you are willing and ready to "allow" this new way of thinking into your reality or not. Once you do though you open yourself up to extraordinary adventures. This is and always has been a personal Journey. This is the reason that we get so many different perceptions on what is "really" occurring from so many different people. A Scientist views it through the eyes of a Scientist. A Guru from the eyes of a Guru and so on. Robert Monroe perceived it in "frequencies". But his occupation involved frequencies and the understanding of them. Tom Campbell being a Physicist saw it through the eyes of a Physicist.

Quote from: Lumaza on January 23, 2016, 04:27:44
the personality that I had was completely different from my personality here.

This is fascinating! I always thought whatever state of awareness I would be in, I would always feel the me...or the personality of me, underneath it all.
Well how then, did you know you were you?

Quote from: Lumaza on January 23, 2016, 04:27:44
Why does a insect not show the intelligence of a Human? It all has to do with the size and capability of the filter/computer and what their current "vessel" will be physically able to do. Are they conscious as well? Does every living thing have consciousness or is it more like is every either living or thing period consciousness itself? These things we will never know until one day we find ourselves again devoid of any kind of "vessel" and just "are" once more.

And another epiphany I had when reading your post, is that, this sate of is-ness that is so rare, is our core experience while inhabiting an insect? After all, an ant body is not much of a vessel.

Could it be that an anthill is just a million enlightened souls digging in the dirt?  :-D [edit: I forgot to put a smiley face behind this one]

Quote from: Bluebird on January 23, 2016, 16:54:00
Then by all means, worry about it. Do something about it. Perhaps in some years you will come to believe something else and worry about that. So your life becomes worrying, searching, and doing. Sounds like your not alone. Sounds like me!

Quote from: Lumaza on January 23, 2016, 18:34:25
That should say "Don't worry about it, instead do something about it". There is no need to worry.

I agree, I'm not telling anyone to worry. I'm just being practical. Most often the motivation for wanting to know about the afterlife is fear.

Quote from: Lumaza on January 23, 2016, 18:34:25
Your life is all about experiencing and reacting to said experiences. The way you react shows whether or not you received the true message from the experience or not.

Yes your reaction shows if you can see the truth in an experience. That truth, is that the experience is nothing. You provide the truth to it. In fact you don't need experiences at all. This is the state if is-ness.

Quote from: Bluebird on January 23, 2016, 18:44:15
This is fascinating! I always thought whatever state of awareness I would be in, I would always feel the me...or the personality of me, underneath it all.
Well how then, did you know you were you?

When reading through my post above the thought came to my mind that I wonder if this is what is actually responsible for "possession". Could it be that a person from another reality is in conscious control of another person in another reality. I became I was me I guess because I was aware of being in a another body period. That's kind of hard to explain. But the people I saw, the place I was living, things like that were always different. Many times I found myself in life and death predicaments that this other me had gotten me into and it seemed like I was becoming aware at a very crucial time in the scenario.

QuoteAnd another epiphany I had when reading your post, is that, this sate of is-ness that is so rare, is our core experience while inhabiting an insect? After all, an ant body is not much of a vessel.

Could it be that an anthill is just a million enlightened souls digging in the dirt?

I think the ant in this case would also have this "filter", otherwise it wouldn't be able to have it's "ant" life experience. But I don't remember ever being an ant, so I really can't answer that question, lol.

Quote from: Bluebird on January 23, 2016, 18:57:21
In fact you don't need experiences at all. This is the state if is-ness.

That is why we need this "filter". We came here to experience and learn from those experiences. Could you imagine everyone and everything here being in the state of constant "is-ness". That's not why we incarnate in any one of the many realms we could find ourselves in.

The state of "is-ness" that one will find themselves in would be the opportunity to finally assess all that was learned and experienced as the previous incarnated body.

Quote from: Lumaza on January 23, 2016, 19:19:25
That is why we need this "filter". We came here to experience and learn from those experiences. Could you imagine everyone and everything here being in the state of constant "is-ness". That's not why we incarnate in any one of the many realms we could find ourselves in.

The state of "is-ness" that one will find themselves in would be the opportunity to finally assess all that was learned and experienced as the previous incarnated body.

Yes, and I have seen things with this perspective my whole life. Even though I understood this concept early on (one only needs to read one of a million books to be exposed to it) I had to keep hearing it and reading about it. I thought somehow I could get "there" quicker if I only did things correctly or better than I was doing them at the moment.

I think that's the problem I have with people like Tom Campbell or William Buhlman standing up and proclaiming the way. It tends to make people question the validity of their own experience.
I don't think you get as much out of your experience when you think it is "wrong" and someone else has the correct way to experience...if only you could experience things like that...

On the other hand, I think teachers are important and its not the message of the teacher I have a problem with, it the way people interpret the message, judge the message, then proclaim the importance of the message.

Everything is a teacher and everything has a message, and no one thing has any significance over another. It is happening and that is all.

I'm 9 posts behind so I'll start here...

Quote from: Lumaza on January 23, 2016, 04:27:44


I don't think it's being experienced via NDEs though. I think the person that is having the NDE is still too close to their current physical live and it's mindset and conditioning, as in beliefs and things like that, to be able to experience what it's like to just "be" again.

The illness reference I made previously is where the pain in my case became extreme and the physical world faded into total blackness. No sight no sounds or touch etc. I was alone in a singular existence of pure being, I simply 'WAS'. It's not the void either, there you have perceptions and thoughts manifest. Nothing but unalterable blackness, no amount of will or intent created anything. I was alone and thats where the idea of a core initiated from. It's also in your awareness when close to the source. You are, then connect and you become.
The NDE'rs are in an experience or suddenly become aware in an experience. Im not sure if its the etheric or what but some of the NDE'rs describe my early pre-school experiences of things very well, before hitting the tunnel and opening up their personal journey.
You've never been alone until you experience this.

Quote from: Bluebird on January 23, 2016, 19:46:03
I think that's the problem I have with people like Tom Campbell or William Buhlman standing up and proclaiming the way. It tends to make people question the validity of their own experience.
I don't think you get as much out of your experience when you think it is "wrong" and someone else has the correct way to experience...if only you could experience things like that...

But see that's why Tom's book is called "My Big Toe". It's his own personal conclusions. He states often that "you" have to come to your own. He sees nothing wrong with being skeptical. All he does is describes and explains everything from what "he" has personally experienced. William seems to have more of a direct approach though.  But as I said, I respect what they have to say and definitely approve of their videos. I use their teachings and videos often as a "reference" links for new members here. Especially Tom's talks on fear, which is something that "must" be confronted to be able to "allow" a shift in consciousness to occur.

QuoteOn the other hand, I think teachers are important and its not the message of the teacher I have a problem with, it the way people interpret the message, judge the message, then proclaim the importance of the message.

Everything is a teacher and everything has a message, and no one thing has any significance over another. It is happening and that is all.

I have listened to some other Authors that state it's basically their way or the highway. One that comes to mind is Dr. Bruce Goldberg. I have personally heard him say on a radio station state that his was "the only way". I didn't like that at all.

I like to help to teach how to attain the "shift". There are many ways to do it. People can use my techniques or any other techniques from others to start with, but soon they will adapt to what works for them. You can find a number of them here on the Astral pulse in the "stickies" section of the sub forums. What you experience there is for "you" yourself to experience. This is the reason that I don't share my own adventures here. If I do, I normally use them as "examples" of what could be.

Quote from: Szaxx on January 23, 2016, 20:19:58
You are, then connect and you become.

...and the Quote of the Day award goes to Szaxx!!!!!!!!!!  :-)  :-)  :-)

Quote from: theswearjar on January 22, 2016, 23:09:49
The point of life for me Is to reunite the motion bound soul with the motionless infinite source  and whan you get the experience of that you realize what it means to express the perfect qualitys of spirit or source. But after that experience you open your eyes and your back to just you.  But its an. Amazing feeling because then your whole life becomes about changing your outer self (the feeling of indaviduality and free will)  to reflect that inner perfectness  that you know exists 

The source appears motionless?
Not sure what you've experienced here. It's anything but motionless from a mental state. I've only ever connected in a mental state of mind. It's beyond form the closer you appear to get. The individuality melts into it and the billions of cores connect overloading our ability to comprehend. The journey is very peaceful, its pure bliss but that's not the source itself. It appears to be emanated like sunlight to a plant. It radiates this unconditional love and you become almost possessed by it. Any darkness inside of you would burn away.
You're correct on the wanting to emulate the inner peace. It almost infects you in a very positive way. Anyone becoming close would resonate with this feeling, words fail.

QuoteYou are, then connect and you become.

Quote from: Lumaza on January 23, 2016, 20:40:46
...and the Quote of the Day award goes to Szaxx!!!!!!!!!!  :-)  :-)  :-)

I second that! A primordial statement, way out of my experience, but I can almost feel it.

Quote from: Lumaza on January 23, 2016, 20:37:01
But see that's why Tom's book is called "My Big Toe". It's his own personal conclusions. He states often that "you" have to come to your own. He sees nothing wrong with being skeptical.

I hear you, I've watched a lot of his videos. I'm not really pointing the finger at him. He was just on the tip of my tongue (fingers) when I was trying to make a point.

Quote from: Lumaza on January 23, 2016, 20:37:01
I like to help to teach how to attain the "shift". There are many ways to do it. People can use my techniques or any other techniques from others to start with, but soon they will adapt to what works for them. You can find a number of them here on the Astral pulse in the "stickies" section of the sub forums. What you experience there is for "you" yourself to experience. This is the reason that I don't share my own adventures here. If I do, I normally use them as "examples" of what could be.

I know and I appreciate your help. I haven't forgot about the exercise you told me to do. I started keeping a dream journal. Its pretty weird. I am discovering I have a lot of dreams based in my home town. I'm sure that will help me get lucid again.

Here is a new video put out by Tom which answers a lot of the questions posed in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0FuXKHzE2c

 Thank You for that link Xanth. I enjoy listening to all of Tom's videos.

We have corresponded back and forth in the last 4 years, but when I asked this question, I never received any reply. I asked him "Why would I still experience a "full separation" while allowing Sleep Paralysis to peak, when I have already learned and practice successfully often the technique of Phasing. I used to completely buy in to his theories on non physical exploration and through Phasing I found I wasn't separating from anything. But then I started having and still do have what appears to be full OBEs, with the actual real feeling of a physical separation.

That is the reason I have my doubts. I practice Phasing often, actually to the point of just being able to close my eyes sometimes and being "there". So I can't see why I still have to experience full body separations. During those I do not and I want to make sure this is understood, I never intend to go anywhere nor do I attempt to exit at all. I just awaken in SP and see it through. Then I feel separation occurring on it's own. He constantly states that people don't "need to or have to" separate anything. Then why am I still experiencing a separation?

I wish I had Facebook so I could actually ask him there myself. But I had Facebook in the past and have no interest in opening up a account there again.

Tom doesn't seem to interact much on facebook these days.  I don't think I've seen an actual post from him in a very long time now. 

As for your question, I obviously can't answer for Tom... but...
In that video link I posted, one of the first things he talks about is the "intellectual" level vs the "being" level.  I know you understand the two concepts very well. 
Perhaps this is just some part of projection that is known to you on the intellectual level, yet hasn't made it entirely to your being level? 

I can apply a bit of logic to this... the fact you experience projecting both ways (with separation and without), it reinforces the idea that the separation isn't required or you (or anyone really) would never be able to phase like we do. 

It's just a thought.  I know you're MUCH more advanced at this than most people.  So who knows really.  :)

Do you only get the separation sensations when you awake in SP? 

Quote from: Xanth on January 27, 2016, 12:08:53
Tom doesn't seem to interact much on facebook these days.  I don't think I've seen an actual post from him in a very long time now.

Thank You, I didn't know that. Last I had heard a couple of years ago when I was on Facebook, Tom was very active.  

QuoteAs for your question, I obviously can't answer for Tom... but...
In that video link I posted, one of the first things he talks about is the "intellectual" level vs the "being" level.  I know you understand the two concepts very well.  
Perhaps this is just some part of projection that is known to you on the intellectual level, yet hasn't made it entirely to your being level?

I have listened to that recent video 2 times now. 2 and half hours of a video really isn't a lot to me. I normally listen to 3-4 hours of  radio talk shows, like Coast to Coast or Midnight in the Desert at night now.
The way I understood what he was saying about the "intellectual level" and the "being" levels were that these levels are experienced in further progression with this skill in general. First we go in with our current "mindset", we can call that the "intellectual", always needing to know why and how, then after awhile we kind of progress or evolve into the next level or next mindset of just allowing and "being. There seems to be all kinds of progressions that we will experience with "non ordinary states of consciousness", as Stanislav Grof would put it.

QuoteI can apply a bit of logic to this... the fact you experience projecting both ways (with separation and without), it reinforces the idea that the separation isn't required or you (or anyone really) would never be able to phase like we do.

Hmm, that is rather vague though. I enjoy Phasing. I had a period due to my "ailment" that made it almost impossible to do. I say almost impossible, because I learned where there is a will there is a way and I just had to find that "new way". But in the meantime my Lucid Dreams began to ramp up. I saw this as another form of progression. First there was the my 3 night experience back in 2011. That created the curiosity to learn more. Then came Phasing, then came me becoming aware of my Dreams, then came me becoming lucid in those Dreams and learning how to navigate those areas. Next came awakening in full SP and spontaneously exiting the body. I have experienced OBEs throughout my whole life, but I became aware only of the actual separation in the past when I was young and that scared me like nothing else. I didn't have any memory recall of where it led to. Now in one each of these "modes" of exploration I found all kinds of progressions as well. Soon I am going to be creating a actual thread on all of this. But at the time I am dealing with a very trying circumstance. My beloved is very sick and it's consuming all of my thoughts and energy right now.  

QuoteDo you only get the separation sensations when you awake in SP?  

Yes. When I first began to learn about Astral Projection, I put a lot of time and effort into attempting to physically exit my body. I had a couple of close calls, whereas I became aware of my room and things with my eyes closed. But I soon tired of that technique. Frank's posts really helped me to understand that I didn't need to exit anything, so did Tom's videos. I soon moved on to Phasing and never looked back.

Like I said all of a sudden I would find myself awake as SP was just beginning. I then observed the entire cycle. I hear the Astral winds approaching, get the vibrations, then they stop and my legs begin to rise. The next thing I know I am rocketing down my hallway and out my patio window. Like I have said in the past here, my bedroom has windows in it, so I don't know why I keep going out of my room, down my hallway then out my patio window. I do not have any conscious intent while doing this, other then to observe what is occurring. I have no expectations, I just lie there and allow what's going to happen to happen. But, there is different "realm" per say, awaiting me on the other side of my patio window.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

One last thing, the end of Tom's recent video from the link above has to do with a question and answer period. I would suggest that especially people new to Astral Projection listen to this part if you don't have the "time" to listen to the whole thing. It begins at 1:50:30.

Quote
I can apply a bit of logic to this... the fact you experience projecting both ways (with separation and without), it reinforces the idea that the separation isn't required or you (or anyone really) would never be able to phase like we do.

Interesting comment. I've not done a bodily exit since 1974. Phasing came naturally and by experimenting, I've reduced the exit time drastically. I have and still try to do the bodily exit as an experiment, it takes too long once you're accustomed to phasing and the process get switched every time. Bodily exits worked at 4 years of age as they gave the impression of a safe way to go exploring. Had I phased back then I may have confused the whole process with dreaming although incredibly lucidly. I recall having the desire to explore and then the ball started rolling automatically.
I'll eventually get to watch Tom's new video, time is a luxury unavailable with Wi-Fi at present.

 The last and rather important progression that I really notice is the difference that I have when I just close my eyes compared to what it is used to be like. Now it seems when I simply close my eyes that my attachment to my physical body is immediately gone and the sense of just "being" is automatic.

It's really hard to explain that concept, other then the constant "entrainment" has shown me that the shift really is a simple "closing of the eyes" away. I'm sure many of you here understand what I mean about difference you may notice now when you just close your eyes to what it used to be like. No longer is there the mental chatter. Now it's just you are instantly focused elsewhere. Even the darkness there looks and feels different now. There is a immediate calming and serenity to be felt.  But it"s a thing that could get easily overlooked. I never really realized that until I was making a list of all the things I wanted to write about in a thread on "progression".

I have studied Tom quite a bit.  I believe he has some amazing points, if nothing else there are two great takeaways in my opinion.  The first is that the best model of this reality we have is it being a virtual reality.  The second is all we have are models, and MODELS ARE NOT REAL.  Tom doesn't believe his views are true, he just thinks they are best model.  But the real takeaway is whatever the model, once you believe it to be real and not just a model of reality you have put a limit on your growth.

Once again to repeat what the model, once you believe it to be real and just a model of reality you have put a limit on your growth.  (If you take nothing away from him than this I think he would be happy.)

The biggest problem I have with Tom's TOE is that he comes from a scientific background and yet does not talk at all, except very briefly at the beginning of his first book about his experiences.  This essentially means he is presenting the conclusion of his experiments without letting anyone see or have any idea of the experiments or resulting data which got him there.  Without seeing the experiment that led the conclusion you really have no way of making a judgement either way on the validity of the conclusion.  I understand his explanation for why he does not share this, but still it weakens his TOE quite a bit.

Second problem in particular that Robert Monroe and Tom Campbell (Who learned under Monroe) seem to have is a very tainted view of the models of reality presented by religion.  To the point of ignorance.  They seem to not grasp the idea behind religion at all.  Best example I can think of is Tom writes about how he dismisses the idea of God and the Holy Spirit and the notion they care about you or interact on your behalf at all.  I believe he says something along the lines of it is as silly as thinking you personally care about a single bacterium in your gut.  However in like the very same chapter he goes on to say how the greater computer or whatever he calls it, is open to and willing to help anyone who asks for it.  Wow an interface with what created us that can give us aid and understanding and help us, sounds like kind of a spot on analogy for the Holy Spirit.  It's not like 2000 years ago they would present the holy spirit as a computer interface, being they had no idea what a computer was.  Tom himself warns against having a predetermined bent against an idea and how that will limit your views, however he clearly has not taken his own advice and I believe this leads to a particular view of his experiences which are tainted by that.  But who knows since like I said he won't share the experiences which he makes his views based on.

Shoot I had one last point but I can't remember it.  Oh yes at the end of the day I really don't think Tom cares at all about giving people a true view of reality.  His goal is to have his Big TOE spark something that leads you to what he calls 'bettering your consciousness.'  His TOE is just the model he uses to try and jump start you to making a change to go about that.  So at the end of the day don't take too many of the fine points of his theory too literally or seriously, because I'm pretty sure he doesn't.

Quote from: Xanth on January 09, 2016, 22:19:53
I'm not sure I can say this without sounding like an donkey's behind LoL, so please forgive me... but, that's because you simply don't understand.
It's the difference between ACTING good and BEING good.  But meh, in the sense of as long as you're doing good, it doesn't really matter THAT much.

One is done as part of the journey, and one is done after the journey has been completed (for the most part).

Sorry for a late reply, I kind of forgot (finals time  :-D ). Anyway, no worries. I think I actually can differentiate between the two and I think I get your point. And I agree. But in my opinion it doesn't contradict what I am saying. You can either act good or be good. Absolutely. But... sorry I cannot help it (I might be a bit of a donkey myself :-D ): when you are good, you still feel good about it in some respect. It just isn't the same feeling like when you are merely "acting." Every interaction of us with this world can be broken down to "feelings." Of course, there is nirvana - an absolute cessation of everthing. But still. Generally it is the case. And even the way to nirvana feels "kind of good."

I realise there is the story about Buddha and his pupil where the pupil asks him: So what is the sense in all of this when the desire not to desire is also a desire.

I see a great paralell with our discussion there. And obviously there is a significant difference between "desiring and desiring." But just like I am saying above, it still feels kind of good to let everything be as it is. :-)

Anyway... I think that the language is a great barrier in this conversation. We are talking about something too subtle and intangible to be put down to words. And therefore, misunderstandings might occur. Especially since I am not a native English speaker. So chances are, our opinions (or rather feelings :wink: ) are not so different from each other. :-)

QuoteThe biggest problem I have with Tom's TOE is that he comes from a scientific background and yet does not talk at all, except very briefly at the beginning of his first book about his experiences.  This essentially means he is presenting the conclusion of his experiments without letting anyone see or have any idea of the experiments or resulting data which got him there.  Without seeing the experiment that led the conclusion you really have no way of making a judgement either way on the validity of the conclusion.  I understand his explanation for why he does not share this, but still it weakens his TOE quite a bit.

Good point. I haven't finished the video yet, but I did notice early on that he takes great pains to emphasize that his conclusions are "logically derived". "Logically derived" does not equal "evidence". It was quite logical to believe 1000 years ago that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it. I understand that he is going on much more than that, yet the point of peer review is probe for weaknesses in the argument and the "whys" and "hows" of how you got there. Being a "physicist" doesn't get you a pass.

That said, if he indeed considers this to be a conversation starter and jumping off point, I have no issues. Someone has to throw something out there.

Quote
The second is all we have are models, and MODELS ARE NOT REAL.  Tom doesn't believe his views are true, he just thinks they are best model.  But the real takeaway is whatever the model, once you believe it to be real and not just a model of reality you have put a limit on your growth.

Once again to repeat what the model, once you believe it to be real and just a model of reality you have put a limit on your growth.  (If you take nothing away from him than this I think he would be happy.)

So is there something that is out there somewhere that could be considered to be ultimate truth, or is that limiting?

QuoteSecond problem in particular that Robert Monroe and Tom Campbell (Who learned under Monroe) seem to have is a very tainted view of the models of reality presented by religion.  To the point of ignorance.  They seem to not grasp the idea behind religion at all.  Best example I can think of is Tom writes about how he dismisses the idea of God and the Holy Spirit and the notion they care about you or interact on your behalf at all.  I believe he says something along the lines of it is as silly as thinking you personally care about a single bacterium in your gut.  However in like the very same chapter he goes on to say how the greater computer or whatever he calls it, is open to and willing to help anyone who asks for it.  Wow an interface with what created us that can give us aid and understanding and help us, sounds like kind of a spot on analogy for the Holy Spirit.  It's not like 2000 years ago they would present the holy spirit as a computer interface, being they had no idea what a computer was.  Tom himself warns against having a predetermined bent against an idea and how that will limit your views, however he clearly has not taken his own advice and I believe this leads to a particular view of his experiences which are tainted by that.  But who knows since like I said he won't share the experiences which he makes his views based on.

astralm, having come from a Christian background myself, I'm curious to know what ways you think religion might play in all this. Is it simply an attempt by ancient peoples to quantify deep experiences they had? Or is there something more to it than that? Its interesting to me that much of what Jesus taught meshes with concepts people are learning from meditation and non-physical experiences. And I'm not talking about "Heaven is for real" stuff.

Quote from: Ricochet on January 28, 2016, 21:21:52
astralm, having come from a Christian background myself, I'm curious to know what ways you think religion might play in all this. Is it simply an attempt by ancient peoples to quantify deep experiences they had? Or is there something more to it than that? Its interesting to me that much of what Jesus taught meshes with concepts people are learning from meditation and non-physical experiences. And I'm not talking about "Heaven is for real" stuff.

Hey Ricochet,
I see religion as models of how everything works.  However many just see the impact of them, for example how they have been used to control countries and oppress people.  Which they have been used for but so has science, however if you look at some of the models themselves, and attach them to the time and place, wow they are really impressive.  For example Tom Campbell didn't make up that this reality is not real and virtual.  Long before computers and science this concept in seen in the bible, Greek philosophy and many many other religions going back who knows how far.  The idea that this reality was created by something, those are concepts that came from the fact we are spiritual being and our spirit resides outside this reality.  We may have forgot and are shielded from much of this knowledge while here, but somewhere deep down we know the basics.  And we explain it with models.

Just because some of the older religions are simpler or more basic models doesn't make them garbage or wrong.  In order for a model to have value it must make sense, a model more advanced than the culture would be just nonsense.  Giving a model like Tom's or Frank's or Monroe's to someone 3000 years ago would not be revolutionary, it would just be gibberish on the page, they didn't have the background to understand it.  So given all that I think it is a little ignorant to look at those models and say they are wrong and dangerous.  That is pretty much the same thing as saying learning about electron clouds is wrong and dangerous because we now know this is a limited and not entirely accurate model of how electrons really behave.

Best Regards

astralm; Thanks. That makes sense to me.

Quote from: BranStark on January 28, 2016, 20:16:44
when you are good, you still feel good about it in some respect.

Oh definitely.  No argument there.
It's just that... that "feeling good" shouldn't be the driving force for WHY you did the good act in the first place.

If you had sat there before you did the act and thought "oh, if I help that little old lady across the street, it's going to make me feel good"... then you're not really doing it for a good reason, you're doing it for a selfish reason really.  The INTENT behind the act is paramount to deciding whether it causes spiritual growth or the opposite.

QuoteI realise there is the story about Buddha and his pupil where the pupil asks him: So what is the sense in all of this when the desire not to desire is also a desire.

Nailed it.  Exactly.  Even the desire to not want to desire *IS* a desire in itself and, therefore, not really conductive to spiritual growth.
Everyone has to start somewhere though and it usually starts from a position of not wanting to do bad.  That's where what I mention above comes into play... do you have to THINK about doing your good deed before you do it?  Or do you just DO IT without even a first thought?

QuoteI see a great paralell with our discussion there. And obviously there is a significant difference between "desiring and desiring." But just like I am saying above, it still feels kind of good to let everything be as it is. :-)

I see the "let everything be as it is" in this regards as not having that initial thought of "is my action good?".  
Learning to allow everything to be as it is, is probably as close to enlightenment or awakening as you can get without actually, fully defining it.

QuoteAnyway... I think that the language is a great barrier in this conversation. We are talking about something too subtle and intangible to be put down to words. And therefore, misunderstandings might occur. Especially since I am not a native English speaker. So chances are, our opinions (or rather feelings :wink: ) are not so different from each other. :-)

HA!  As it is with everything non-physical we try to discuss here, eh?  :)

Astralm, you have some misconceptions regarding Tom and his work... I'm not sure I have the time to fully address them right now, but I'll try to quickly.

Quote from: astralm on January 28, 2016, 18:24:08
The biggest problem I have with Tom's TOE is that he comes from a scientific background and yet does not talk at all, except very briefly at the beginning of his first book about his experiences.  This essentially means he is presenting the conclusion of his experiments without letting anyone see or have any idea of the experiments or resulting data which got him there.  Without seeing the experiment that led the conclusion you really have no way of making a judgement either way on the validity of the conclusion.

The "conclusions" from Tom's big toe are the derivatives.  He goes into full detail in his book HOW you he derives the results of his perspective.  

QuoteI understand his explanation for why he does not share this, but still it weakens his TOE quite a bit.

Without sounding condescending here... I don't think you do understand it.

It all goes back to the title of his book (and his perspective): *MY* Big Toe.  It's paramount to understand why that word "MY" is in there.  
Lumaza mentioned it earlier in this thread.  His Big Toe is based entirely (100%) on his own experiences... and you can NEVER have his experience. Never.  Many people try to have the experience which someone else has shared, and you'll never do it.

It's like when people try to visit the same Focus 27 "healing center" that Robert Monroe did.  Those people are trying to have the same experience Robert did, without realizing (or knowing) that they can't.  So when they don't ever visit that same healing center, they believe they failed.  Where by, they might have visited it, yet didn't realize it because they were too zoned into have Robert's experience.

Experience is personal and unique to the individual and should only, really (there are SOME exceptions), be shared with the mindset of entertaining.  You can't really use direct experience as a means of teaching, because you're only setting someone up to fail.

QuoteSecond problem in particular that Robert Monroe and Tom Campbell (Who learned under Monroe) seem to have is a very tainted view of the models of reality presented by religion.  To the point of ignorance.  They seem to not grasp the idea behind religion at all.  Best example I can think of is Tom writes about how he dismisses the idea of God and the Holy Spirit and the notion they care about you or interact on your behalf at all.  I believe he says something along the lines of it is as silly as thinking you personally care about a single bacterium in your gut.  However in like the very same chapter he goes on to say how the greater computer or whatever he calls it, is open to and willing to help anyone who asks for it.  Wow an interface with what created us that can give us aid and understanding and help us, sounds like kind of a spot on analogy for the Holy Spirit.  It's not like 2000 years ago they would present the holy spirit as a computer interface, being they had no idea what a computer was.  Tom himself warns against having a predetermined bent against an idea and how that will limit your views, however he clearly has not taken his own advice and I believe this leads to a particular view of his experiences which are tainted by that.  But who knows since like I said he won't share the experiences which he makes his views based on.

Again, there is a very strong misunderstanding you have regarding Tom and his perspective. There's a video of Tom's which you should probably watch.
It's him... in a church panel... discussing that very subject with the congregation about god and his Big Toe.  It's very enlightening.  :)
I think this is the video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKQVbL5E6qU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKQVbL5E6qU)

QuoteShoot I had one last point but I can't remember it.  Oh yes at the end of the day I really don't think Tom cares at all about giving people a true view of reality.  His goal is to have his Big TOE spark something that leads you to what he calls 'bettering your consciousness.'  His TOE is just the model he uses to try and jump start you to making a change to go about that.

He wouldn't have written his three books if he didn't care.  :)
But with that said, he knows/realizes/understands better than anyone else that it's *HIS* perspective.  With that said, you're 100% correct in your assessment.
He is more interested with providing that spark for you to find things out for yourself, because that's just how experience and reality works.  

That FIRST STEP is usually the hardest for people to get past.  He provides you with a quick and easy way to begin the process of taking that first step.  He wets your curiosity.  :)
At least that's how it worked with me.

QuoteSo at the end of the day don't take too many of the fine points of his theory too literally or seriously, because I'm pretty sure he doesn't.

I'd say take NONE of it seriously.  But don't dismiss it either.  
Open-minded skepticism.  That's the ONLY thing you should really take away from his books.
Then... just experience the larger reality and see what you come up with.

QuoteIt all goes back to the title of his book (and his perspective): *MY* Big Toe.  It's paramount to understand why that word "MY" is in there. 
Lumaza mentioned it earlier in this thread.  His Big Toe is based entirely (100%) on his own experiences... and you can NEVER have his experience. Never.  Many people try to have the experience which someone else has shared, and you'll never do it.

I'm a little confused. A scientific hypothesis, as I'm assuming Tom is wanting to present, is based on falsifiable and repeatable experiments. For example, I can stand on a building and drop rocks all day long and they will always fall DOWN. I can have all 7 billion of the earth's population do the same thing and they will all have the SAME experience. This is how we know things, we conduct many experiments and get predictable results and make predictions.

I haven't had the experiences you all have, but I realize that the experiences are different for different people and probably much of it is a metaphor and gets filtered through one's own interpretation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Here's my beef. From what I have seen, Tom presents his Toe as a fact more or less. Consciousness is finite. You are a bacterium in a gut. Love is a process to lower entropy. This is what happens when you die. Reincarnation happens this way. Sims game, Yada yada yada. If these experiences are not repeatable st some level, what's the point? You can't have it both ways. You can't say "this is how it is" and than say you can never duplicate my experiences - i.e. test my conclusions. Why even bother? Like I said earlier, there is other information from various sources that dovetails together and paints a different picture than what Tom is saying. Isn't it more reasonable to craft a Toe from the experiences of many rather than just one? To see what is repeated over and over again? Unless of course, you are going to tell me that the ultimate reality is different for everyone, in which case whatever Tom has experienced is only for him and what has it to do with me?

:-)

Quote from: Ricochet on January 29, 2016, 14:12:19
I'm a little confused. A scientific hypothesis, as I'm assuming Tom is wanting to present, is based on falsifiable and repeatable experiments. For example, I can stand on a building and drop rocks all day long and they will always fall DOWN. I can have all 7 billion of the earth's population do the same thing and they will all have the SAME experience. This is how we know things, we conduct many experiments and get predictable results and make predictions.

When we compare results within the constraints of this physical reality, yes, within a small variance (VERY SMALL, we're talking micrometer differences), experiences are going to measure out relatively accurately.
That's because we're all using, relatively speaking, the same measuring devices, which are all physical-based.

We can't make the same comparisons when it comes to the non-physical.  Science is physical.  We can only measure things using science in terms of how they interact "physically" with us.  Otherwise, there's nothing to do science on.  That's why, when we're doing 'science' in regards to things like projection, we attempt to bring a physical component to the mix which we can track.  It's not perfect and it, too, has it's problems, but it's the *ONLY* way we can do it.  For example, putting a playing card in a separate room and trying to read it while non-physical.  Even in such a scenario, there are variables which we don't even know exist working against it.  That's why most "scientists" shy away from this kind of research, because it's, as you said, not falsifiable.

Tom does derive most of his book in a scientific manner, as per the experiments and such he did with Monroe and the other explorers back in the day.  But in the end, we're still talking about something "non-physical" which is unique and personal to each person.  It's scientific in as much that he's brought as much physicality to the mix as he is able to.

I'm not sure if that answers your question, but it should provide you with some more context.

QuoteI haven't had the experiences you all have, but I realize that the experiences are different for different people and probably much of it is a metaphor and gets filtered through one's own interpretation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's correct.  The filters you use to interpret your experiences are based upon what you've already experienced throughout your life... and your life experience is YOUR life experience.  Different from anyone else's. 

QuoteHere's my beef. From what I have seen, Tom presents his Toe as a fact more or less. Consciousness is finite. You are a bacterium in a gut. Love is a process to lower entropy. This is what happens when you die. Reincarnation happens this way. Sims game, Yada yada yada. If these experiences are not repeatable st some level, what's the point? You can't have it both ways. You can't say "this is how it is" and than say you can never duplicate my experiences - i.e. test my conclusions. Why even bother? Like I said earlier, there is other information from various sources that dovetails together and paints a different picture than what Tom is saying. Isn't it more reasonable to craft a Toe from the experiences of many rather than just one? To see what is repeated over and over again? Unless of course, you are going to tell me that the ultimate reality is different for everyone, in which case whatever Tom has experienced is only for him and what has it to do with me?

*HIS* TOE is fact to him.  He's experienced it directly.

This is what always gets my goat (baaaaaaaaah) around here and why I, also, refuse to start discussions with phrases such as "in my opinion" (although I do sometimes, out of pure habit)...
*EVERYTHING* you read is an opinion.  It doesn't matter how strongly someone puts that opinion forward or how "factual" you feel they're trying to be... what someone says is nothing more than an opinion... and it should be treated as such.

If you understand that all experience is personal and unique to you, then you can understand why you can't craft a TOE from any experience other than your own.
For example, if I tell you something you *ONLY* have two ways of interacting with it: You either believe it or you don't believe it.  That's it.  It can never be part of your experience which you draw from, because YOU never experienced it.

Yes, the ultimate truth of reality IS different for each person.  The most you'll find are similarities between what YOU experience compared to what someone else experiences, but that's it.  That's the closest you can/will ever get to that.  Sometimes it's those similarities which help us to get over the next hurdle of understanding. 

But yes, you're essentially in this spiritual growth thing for yourself.  It's actually, in a way, a very selfish endevour.  hehe

Although, in the end, if you feel Tom's information has no value to you... then don't read it, don't listen to it.  It's all good.  I thought it had no value either when I watched my first lecture of his... then a couple years later I went back to it and gave it another shot and found I understood what he was trying to say much better.  Every so often, as I progress, I get a better and better handle on what he's trying to say.

Xanth, my man...

Quote from: Xanth on January 29, 2016, 12:19:37
It's just that... that "feeling good" shouldn't be the driving force for WHY you did the good act in the first place.

Why not? If it's not feeling good, then what is the driving force? This goes along with the whole enlightenment carrot and stick game.
I often do things for people without thinking "what am I going to get out of this" but I'm sure subconsciously I'm going to somehow feel better in the process of helping, or after the helping is done.

Being a physical entity requires you to be selfish.

Quotethen you're not really doing it for a good reason, you're doing it for a selfish reason really.  The INTENT behind the act is paramount to deciding whether it causes spiritual growth or the opposite.

Why is selfishness not a good reason? And what do you mean by "good"? Is it something God deems as good? I know you don't mean that. Can you explain this enlightened "INTENT" of yours?

Quote from: Bluebird on January 29, 2016, 17:03:15
Xanth, my man...

Why not? If it's not feeling good, then what is the driving force? This goes along with the whole enlightenment carrot and stick game.
I often do things for people without thinking "what am I going to get out of this" but I'm sure subconsciously I'm going to somehow feel better in the process of helping, or after the helping is done.

Being a physical entity requires you to be selfish.

If you don't understand what I'm saying at this point then it doesn't matter what answer I give you as it doesn't mesh with what you want to understand.
I wouldn't have understood what I'm saying a few years ago either.  In fact, I remember arguing with other Astral Pulse members against what I'm saying right now.  Funny how things come full circle.

You will eventually understand, but I can't take you there.

QuoteWhy is selfishness not a good reason? And what do you mean by "good"? Is it something God deems as good? I know you don't mean that. Can you explain this enlightened "INTENT" of yours?

http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2014/02/23/best-method-astral-projection-paths-spiritual-growth-2/
Read that.  It might not fully answer your question, but I can't think of any other way to answer it which I haven't already said.  In that article I explain Love-based learning and Fear-based learning.

Apart from that, I'm not sure what else you're looking for.  I can't help you anymore than what I've already said.  Sorry.

Quote from: Xanth on January 29, 2016, 17:42:16
If you don't understand what I'm saying at this point then it doesn't matter what answer I give you as it doesn't mesh with what you want to understand.

That's not what I'm trying to communicate. I don't really understand anything. That's why I've stopped telling people how I think they should spiritually progress. What actions are progression and what actions are digression is not up to me to judge. All action is a movement.

QuoteI wouldn't have understood what I'm saying a few years ago either.

Does this mean that you are more spiritually advanced than me? That your intent is more loving than mine?

QuoteI remember arguing with other Astral Pulse members against what I'm saying right now.

I hope we are not arguing! I'm honestly not trying to have a debate or prove anything. We are all learning from each other. I've learned a lot from you.
I'm hoping to contribute to you and others by asking questions and sharing ideas.

QuoteYou will eventually understand, but I can't take you there.

But there's nowhere to go. No one can take anyone anywhere. So I'm questioning this higher purpose or better place that is promised by so many. Hoped for by so many. Demonstrated by so very, very, very, few.

Quote from: Bluebird on January 29, 2016, 18:37:26
That's not what I'm trying to communicate. I don't really understand anything. That's why I've stopped telling people how I think they should spiritually progress.

That's good, you should never "tell" anyone how they should Spiritual progress. That's for them to learn themselves. That's why we came to this realm in this "physical form" in the first place.

QuoteBut there's nowhere to go. No one can take anyone anywhere.

You are the one that takes yourself there. This is why we Astral Project. On some level it has been decided that we are ready to see and experience more than just this "physical realm". That we are ready to see "outside the box". That's what a shift in consciousness entails.

I have said that everyone can learn how to create that shift, but it doesn't mean they will actually be successful with it. Many come to this Forum, they read what they can, try it a few times, fail, then quit. Others come here and use practice, patience and in the end they do persevere. It's not the "flavor of the day" to them. They realize this is a "lifetime" experience. They know there is no rush and that when they put in the work and effort, they will reap the rewards. But that's the same with anything in life that you truly put your intent and focus on.

QuoteYes, the ultimate truth of reality IS different for each person.  The most you'll find are similarities between what YOU experience compared to what someone else experiences, but that's it.  That's the closest you can/will ever get to that.  Sometimes it's those similarities which help us to get over the next hurdle of understanding.  

So you're saying that what is the ultimate underlying truth/reality of everything is different for each person? Tom's might be his Big Toe and reincarnating millions of times into his Sims game, lowering entropy etc etc; what he says is only really for him? Yours and mine are completely different?

Quote from: Ricochet on January 29, 2016, 19:24:21
So you're saying that what is the ultimate underlying truth/reality of everything is different for each person? Tom's might be his Big Toe and reincarnating millions of times into his Sims game, lowering entropy etc etc; what he says is only really for him? Yours and mine are completely different?

Pardon me.  Not "ultimate truth"... I meant "experience".  "Experience" is different for each person.

My allergies are going crazy right now and up is down and left is right for me right now.  LOL  ;)

Quote from: Lumaza on January 29, 2016, 18:59:04
That's good, you should never "tell" anyone how they should Spiritual progress.

Of course. I never was the type to stand on a soapbox and preach, but I deeply felt like I knew the way spiritually, and it pained me that others were so misguided. Since then I have changed the way I feel about people and truly know they are where they need to be, and where they are has nothing to do with where I am. The desire to bring people to where I am has left and along with it, a heavy weight.

QuoteYou are the one that takes yourself there. This is why we Astral Project. On some level it has been decided that we are ready to see and experience more than just this "physical realm". That we are ready to see "outside the box". That's what a shift in consciousness entails.

And the main purpose I'm here is to learn how to project, not because it is going to make me a better person, or give me a one up on everyone else, or bring me closer to the source, but because it's exciting and I want to feel good!
Perhaps "it has been decided" that I'm ready to explore outside the physical but I'm not aware of that. I don't feel special.

Quote from: Bluebird on January 29, 2016, 19:41:51
And the main purpose I'm here is to learn how to project, not because it is going to make me a better person, or give me a one up on everyone else, or bring me closer to the source, but because it's exciting and I want to feel good!
Perhaps "it has been decided" that I'm ready to explore outside the physical but I'm not aware of that. I don't feel special.

This isn't about "one upping anyone" If anything it actually teaches you how to control and tame your ego. There is no feeling special involve here. Like I said it's like learning anything else in life. Does a Guitarist feel special, do they feel they are better then everyone else? No they put in the effort, intent and focus to learn and now they and can play. Non ordinary states of consciousness are the same way. But what you learn will definitely change your mindset and view on what is and what isn't. It opens you up to a new way of thinking and that's why I believe that not everyone is ready to experience this at this moment in their current reality. It could change many things, your relationships with people in general, your occupation, all kinds of things. I and many others have seen this first hand.

Quote from: Bluebird on January 29, 2016, 19:41:51
Of course. I never was the type to stand on a soapbox and preach, but I deeply felt like I knew the way spiritually, and it pained me that others were so misguided. Since then I have changed the way I feel about people and truly know they are where they need to be, and where they are has nothing to do with where I am. The desire to bring people to where I am has left and along with it, a heavy weight.

So now, instead of preaching directly TO people... you do it passive aggressively. 
You do realize that the only thing you've changed is HOW you preach to people, right?

As for myself... I post what I post simply to help anyone who wants to learn.  However, when I feel someone is just jerking me around, that interaction stops.  I have little time to waste satiating someone's ego. 

Ultimately, what I post is nothing but an opinion.  I'm but one voice in a crowd.  I'm a loud voice, for certain... but it's not loud because I think I'm right and everyone else is wrong.  It's loud because I speak with confidence and conviction in my experiences and perspective.  Because of that, nobody on this forum can claim to be more or less "spiritual" than anyone else.  It's a meaningless concept anyway.

One BIG thing I try to make sure as the administrator of this forum is that there are a wide variety of people sharing a wide variety of perspectives... because mine, obviously, isn't the only one.

I hope we can move past this pretense now and onto more meaningful things... such as teaching you to project.  :)

Quote from: Xanth on January 29, 2016, 20:10:05
So now, instead of preaching directly TO people... you do it passive aggressively.  

Lol, not what I'm trying to do!
I'm going to take your advice and focus on projection.

I'm new here and it just takes a second to figure out whats acceptable to discuss. Or rather what most peoples views are. I'm certainly not trying to jerk you around.

Another strange thing to consider: I've been reading this forum and your website for quite a while so I guess I feel like I know you and we are pals but I have to remember you don't know me! I promise I'm a peaceful person and have no other motives than to participate and learn.

Moving on! :lol:  

It's all good.  I'm still talking, aren't I?  :)

I hope to get to know you as you've gotten to know me.  ;)

@Xanth

Just because my conclusions are different than yours does not make them wrong.  But thank you for spitting in the face of my opinions, very nice of you.

Quote from: astralm on February 04, 2016, 18:57:06
@Xanth

Just because my conclusions are different than yours does not make them wrong.  But thank you for spitting in the face of my opinions, very nice of you.

Whoa there tiger.

You posted what I viewed as some major misconceptions regarding Tom Campbell and his work... I attempted to clear them up for you. 

I'm not exactly clear where the "spitting" part comes in...

I came across this article today. I'd be interested to know if you feel it is saying much the same things as TC does, and based on your experiences, whether its on the money or not.

https://www.scimednet.org/content/quantum-shift-where-we-seem-be-now-life-after-death