Truth to OBE Success

[Loki999]

From my experiences in Astral Projection, there are times that you relax clear your mind and the next thing you know, your blasting through the far side of the moon on a wonderful astral experience. Other times with a great deal of motivation and excitement I go through the whole routine "perfectly highly relaxed" and focused my mind is totally clear and all seems like nothing will stop my explorations of the planes, but after several hours of staring into the blackness my body feeling numb from not moving there is zero, zip change in conciseness perception maybe a light trance for a fleeting moment, but all in all leaving me with the sicking feeling of I just wasted valuable time attempting a projection and nothing to show for it. Every OBE failure or for the great majority of them is I was not tired enough. It seems that success at astral projection is highly related to ones ability to sleep at the time of attempting. Yesterday I felt like taking a siesta after lunch and within an hour had the most clear and realistic OBE ive had in awhile. Today motivated from yesterdays success i was all the more than ready to project went through the procedure but nothing after two hours i gave up. The difference was today i was not the least bit tired thus no OBE success.
It seems that for Astral Projection to be successful you must be in the state of mind were it would be easy to take a nap or doze off for a few mins. Now being very tired does not seem to help because if im really sleepy ill just lose focus and roll over thus falling into sleep. Its those mid day feelings of sleepiness were you feel like you could just doze off for maybe an hour or so that seems to be the mental state that produces OBEs. Many threads on this forum and to a certain extent the writings of Monroe and Bruce seem to give the impression that one can achieve astral projection when fully awake and alert, by just relaxing and focusing the mind. Alas this from at least my experience is not the case in the least bit. It seems that you must be in the state of mind were sleep is possible for any sort of Astral Projection to occur.
What are your thoughts on this observation i would like to hear from the forum members if they agree or disagree on this issue.
Thanks
Loki999           

[Jilt]

I entirely agree with you. I don't come close to having an OOBE unless I'm thoroughly rested with at least 5, preferably 7 hours of sleep, and have never had one after a nap.

Also, for some reason, I can go weeks without having one and then have them 5 mornings in a row. I don't know what triggers these episodes but have learned to no longer try to exit unless I recognize the subtle signs that I'm ready to have one. Otherwise it's not worth the time, effort and frustration. I'd rather just look at them as little gifts and appreciate them when they happen.

[Loki999]

Very true Jilt on your observation that OOBE seem to come in bouts or stages than nothing although a don't know if this has too do with other courses. But it seems that when it comes to actually having an Astral Projection, you must be asleep. The term Wake induced OBE seems to be a oxymoron because if your experiencing vibrations and sleep paralysis your body is asleep. Now the mind must be awake but i would be cautious in saying that the mind is awake during an OOBE because even it is in a very different state of perception. Best description is its aware while in normal sleep the mind follows along with the dream plot with no questions asked. I think many people fail or have little to few results in their attempts at Astral Projection because they attempt it when their mind and body is too awake and wont go to sleep. So they just lay there wondering what it is they aren't doing right. For an OBE to work Body/asleep+mind lucid+sleep paralysis+vibrations=projection=all up too you. My advise to everyone trying to have an OOBE is too attempt it the next time they feel like a nap. I think many people fail because they think of it like meditation, it may use the same principles but the objective is very different. The fact is you can not and will not have and sort of Astral Projection if you cant fall asleep during the attempt. Now the confusion here is people think that if they are aware of the vibrations and the other symptoms of trance they must not be asleep is wrong because all trance states are varying degrees of sleep and depth of sleep. You MUST FALL ASLEEP with your mind still aware or awake if you like to call it that hence body Asleep/Mind awake.               

[Kra]

It seems that for Astral Projection to be successful you must be in the state of mind were it would be easy to take a nap or doze off for a few mins. Now being very tired does not seem to help because if im really sleepy ill just lose focus and roll over thus falling into sleep. Its those mid day feelings of sleepiness were you feel like you could just doze off for maybe an hour or so that seems to be the mental state that produces OBEs. Many threads on this forum and to a certain extent the writings of Monroe and Bruce seem to give the impression that one can achieve astral projection when fully awake and alert, by just relaxing and focusing the mind. Alas this from at least my experience is not the case in the least bit. It seems that you must be in the state of mind were sleep is possible for any sort of Astral Projection to occur.
What are your thoughts on this observation i would like to hear from the forum members if they agree or disagree on this issue.      

My experiences say exactly the same thing, so I know this to be true in my case aswell.

[Loki999]

So with this in mind if there a way to encourage sleep effectively than one would only have to practice staying mentally focused to have an OOBE. This might be something to think about. I wonder if there is some-sort of meditation that causes sleep.       

[Jarrod]

I wonder if there is some-sort of meditation that causes sleep.

There certainly is, for me at least.  Unfortunately it also causes unconsciousness though.  If I can't get to sleep I just force my mind blank, no-mind meditation, but don't worry about staying aware.  That puts me dead asleep pretty quickly.

[Loki999]

Jarrod what do you mean mind blank how do you do this sort of meditation?

[Lightning]

Yeah, if you're too alert you can't relax properly, but if you're too relaxed you tend to lose awareness and fall asleep. I find it easier to project early in the morning after a good night's sleep. Sometimes it helps to get out of bed and do something else for a couple of minutes (use the bathroom, read, etc.) before lying down again and attempting to project.

[Jarrod]

Jarrod what do you mean mind blank how do you do this sort of meditation?

No-mind meditation just means to quiet the mind, stop thinking.  It's very simple but many find it very difficult to quiet their mind, make it go blank.  The first thing to stop is surface thoughts like internal monologue, then recognize more subtle thoughts and stop them, like thoughts which don't take the form of words like wondering how long it's going to take or thinking about yesterday or tomorrow or that you'd like to scratch that itch.  The goal is to completely stop the mind and still be aware.  When I use it to put myself to sleep though I hold my mind blank but don't try to stay consciously focused.

[Selea]

What you call "mind blank" is more "mind full of silence". They are not the same thing. The way Bruce explains it is all wrong (in the sense that's not the thing he is explaining) and it serves only as a sort of pre-focus.

The real mind blank state is one of the most difficult things to achieve and it is not to be done actively. If you actively stop thoughts you aren't really stopping anything and, on the contrary, depending on what you want to do, it is either an inheritance (in the case of OBE if you use sleep it is absolutely conterproductive if not as an initial/middle way to not divert your attention).

To achieve a state of real absence of thoughts the mind must do so by itself. This is usually done by fixating the thought on an object or whatever, and having the mind not care about anything else or bored by anything else. After you can also stop the mind (really) without fixating the attention, but if you begin by actively trying to stop thoughts you do nothing, apart a sort of active concentration on the nothing (that, however, stops the proceedings by caring about thought). So, starting from keeping your attention on an object these are the usual steps that a person encounters:

Step 1. External thoughts will divert your attention on the object.
Step 2. External thoughts will co-exists with the concentration on the object, without interrupting the same (this is called Dharana).
Step 3. External thoughts will cease to exists while concentration on the object is kept (this is called Dhyana).
Step 4. The object kept will dissolve in the nothing in background (this is called Samadhi).

If you should not be bored by thoughts. They must stop by themselves; it is the mind that must stop them by no caring no more about them because they cease to exists for it. End of Step 3 (before the advent of Step 4) is usually accompained by a total loss of who you are and what you were doing, with a state of panic (at last the first times) that come from what is called the loss of ego; if you will feel like you are about to die (and you really are). When this state is passed (and it requires a bit of work, especially on your fear) then full mind blank is achieved, where nothing really exists no more, neither what you think "yourself" is.

Now, for what it concerns OBEs, true mind blank is the fastest method also if overkill, in the sense that it would require a lot of training for what? Doing a thing that can be done in one/two months easily at most just by using sleep? If you can achieve true mind blank everything is possible since any thought you actively start (because you must cause effort to make a thought arise) becomes an order. So if you "think" about exiting the body it will become an order and since mind blank also means complete detach from the physical you are already in the state required for the order to carry.

For what it concerns what you call "mind blank" and producing OBEs, then, as I said, the "method" you use can either be counterproductive since you are mixing things up, and from this starts your confusion. If you want to obtain an OBE from a waking state the most important thing is losing yourself in the object of your concentration, so that the "reality" shifts in the one you are actively creating. If you use sleep as a method then the best way is to have the hypnogogic state bring you there, by doing the same thing.

If however you try to keep your mind full of silence as you do you actually do nothing of the two. You break hypnagogia by actively always trying to stop thoughts (so you need to be either more asleep than would normally require for hypnagogia to pass that active block you pose) and you cannot merge with your "reality" since you are not focused on nothing.

P.S: Xanth, how is it going?

[Xanth]

Welcome back Selea, it really is good to see you again. 

To achieve a state of real absence of thoughts the mind must do so by itself. This is usually done by fixating the thought on an object or whatever, and having the mind not care about anything else or bored by anything else. After you can also stop the mind (really) without fixating the attention, but if you begin by actively trying to stop thoughts you do nothing, apart a sort of active concentration on the nothing (that, however, stops the proceedings by caring about thought). So, starting from keeping your attention on an object these are the usual steps that a person encounters:

I'm just curious about that statement... do you separate what is "you" from what is "your mind"?
I've always been of the thought that I control my mind and allowing your mind to do something "by itself" isn't a good thing.

But meh, as usual, I think we're hitting on more semantics. 

Again, welcome back. 

[Tee1234]

From my experiences in Astral Projection, there are times that you relax clear your mind and the next thing you know, your blasting through the far side of the moon on a wonderful astral experience. Other times with a great deal of motivation and excitement I go through the whole routine "perfectly highly relaxed" and focused my mind is totally clear and all seems like nothing will stop my explorations of the planes, but after several hours of staring into the blackness my body feeling numb from not moving there is zero, zip change in conciseness perception maybe a light trance for a fleeting moment, but all in all leaving me with the sicking feeling of I just wasted valuable time attempting a projection and nothing to show for it. Every OBE failure or for the great majority of them is I was not tired enough. It seems that success at astral projection is highly related to ones ability to sleep at the time of attempting. Yesterday I felt like taking a siesta after lunch and within an hour had the most clear and realistic OBE ive had in awhile. Today motivated from yesterdays success i was all the more than ready to project went through the procedure but nothing after two hours i gave up. The difference was today i was not the least bit tired thus no OBE success.
It seems that for Astral Projection to be successful you must be in the state of mind were it would be easy to take a nap or doze off for a few mins. Now being very tired does not seem to help because if im really sleepy ill just lose focus and roll over thus falling into sleep. Its those mid day feelings of sleepiness were you feel like you could just doze off for maybe an hour or so that seems to be the mental state that produces OBEs. Many threads on this forum and to a certain extent the writings of Monroe and Bruce seem to give the impression that one can achieve astral projection when fully awake and alert, by just relaxing and focusing the mind. Alas this from at least my experience is not the case in the least bit. It seems that you must be in the state of mind were sleep is possible for any sort of Astral Projection to occur.
What are your thoughts on this observation i would like to hear from the forum members if they agree or disagree on this issue.
Thanks
Loki999           

For me this is very true. This is a big reason why I do it at bedtime.

Although lately Ive been napping during the day with the purpose to project as well as bedtime. I work outside and with all this crazy weather were having there's not much work, so I got lots of free time on my hands.
I'll wake up in the morning and do whatever for a couple hours, then lounge on my bed till I get tired. When I start to feel like I can sleep, I'll induce an obe.

Thats why I get confused when I hear people say that they tried to have an OBE for hours then just gave up and rolled over and fall asleep. -Your tryn to fall asleep-, just never lose awareness. People get so caught up in these steps and techniques that its actually stopn the natural flow. An Obe is natural and easy to achieve. Its as easy as falling asleep at night when your tired, cause thats what your doing, except you never lose awareness.

I never lose awareness from the time I lay down, till the time I get back to my body.There is no sleep in between. So my brain is fully alert n awake when I lay down - have the obe - and get back. Yet Ill consider that time im gone as sleep because my body was asleep.

I wouldnt waste my time and try to have one when your not tired, just wait till u are. Not to say its not possible though cause if you meditate long enough, your so relaxed that your body will be capable for sleep but that could take awhile and become very frustrating. To each their own though..

[Selea]

I'm just curious about that statement... do you separate what is "you" from what is "your mind"?

No, you separate what is you from what it is your interpretation of "you".

I've always been of the thought that I control my mind and allowing your mind to do something "by itself" isn't a good thing.

You do control your mind, by focusing the thought on a single object. You just don't try to actively stop all thought itself. You see, stopping the words arising in your mind, images and whatnot it is not the difficult part. The difficult part is stopping the interpretation behind the thought. If the process of thought is not shutten off from inside, this never happens.

Actively trying to stop the thoughts as they arise is equivalent to putting the head under water to ear no more external noise. It apparently works, but the noise is still there also if you don't ear it. In this case the noise is the interpretation, what Husserl calls the "block" to pure fenomenology.

The mind must stop the urge for this interpretation by itself, by not caring no more about it, and the only way to do it at beginning is with indirect methods, because until you focus your mind on the thought, until you care about it, the interpretation is still there, hidden, it has already happened. The act of focusing the mind on a single object endured till the end stage cause a sort of short-circuit, where the same mind can't keep up no more, causing a shut-off and stopping the interpretation altogheter, before it happens. When it has already happened (at the stage you actively try to stop the thought) it's impossible to revert it back.

But meh, as usual, I think we're hitting on more semantics.  

On the contrary your remark was a good one. It's just that the thing is more complicated that I could express in a single post without posting my usual pamplet

Again, welcome back.  

I'm sure you will regret saying this in no time

[Xanth]

Thank you for the clarification, Selea.