help me clarify my development please

Jeff_Mash · July 30, 2002, 12:05:24

You describe a lot of things that I think we have all experienced. If I may be so bold, I would say that if you lay in this trance state and keep snapping back to your NOW awareness, then you aren't deep enough to go OBE.

When I do my relaxation techniques, like you, I get to a point where I see some cool hypnogogic imagery, and suddenly, my focus shifts back to my body. Instead of getting discouraged, I relax even more, because I know that I am heading into the right direction. The fact that you

a) saw something cool and
b) brought attention back to your body

means that you are slowly slipping deeper into a trance state. For me, the longer I continue doing this, the MORE imagery I begin to see, and the LESS I begin to focus on the body. Eventually, you will be engulfed in imagery, and if your trance is right, you will snap back to consciousness and experience exit related symptoms. Sometimes, this could happen within seconds of drifting off. Other times, you may drift off to sleep for 90 minutes. The important part is PREPARING mentally for an OBE, so when you do drift off, your subconscous will remember your original intention and bring you back for your journey!

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

Patty · July 30, 2002, 12:32:23

Hi RM,

I don't get paralyzed or have astral sight either. But I feel pretty sure that my OBE's are legit! (After all, I keep verifying them!)

Jeff and I have similar experiences and I think the way it differs from what you are trying is simply this - we allow our selves to drift off to sleep with the firm (and I mean FIRM, absolutely intent) intent to stay mentally awake. So we get that snap back thing going where eventually we snap back into a situation where the body is dead asleep. I seriously doubt I could get my body that dead asleep without falling asleep and snapping my awareness out of it.

I am not clear if others can achieve this sort of state without some falling asleep. Maybe they can. It sounds to me like you are trying to get there in a completely controlled manner, not letting your body go to sleep because you don't want to lose control and .... well....fall asleep!

I often (not always) know if I am going to succeed or not based on whether there is a voice in my mind telling me that I really should get a good night's sleep. That is, I rarely succeed if I am half hearted. The determination to stay mentally awake is key. And again, it's not that I DO stay mentally awake without any breaks in awareness, rather it is that I am intent on staying awake and so every time I drift off, my consciousness snaps me back.

(I always thought hypnogogic imagery was not something to engage in anymore than thoughts. I always thought that I should reset my intent every time i saw such imagery. Which means losing a bit of the trance. But I always figured that was part of the snapping back process.)

I can't address your other questions. A lot of Robert's most useful info is on the web, so I don't think that buying the book is necessarily the key. It's a great book, well written, and I recommend it. When you have more money.

For what it's worth, I have been grounded for the last twenty or so attempts; no approach is foolproof except maybe for someone with lots of experience or with a knack for it.

Patty

rodentmouse · July 30, 2002, 13:32:20

thanks jeff_mash nad patti....

Jeff, i thought the key to OBE WAS to keep fully aware, i didnt know that at some point you had to let go and drift of into sleep.
The thing with the hypnogogic imagery jeff is that its just a dream to me, i only realise i was seeing the images when i actually snap back into the NOW hence it was my unconsiouss doing the work at not my own consiouss effort.
Has simply letting go and drifting to sleep what everyone on these boards does?

i must have missed something

so should i now once i raise energy and acheive a light trance, try to let go and let my subconsious desire do the rest??

everytime i have fallen into a hypnogogic vision, i bring myself back because i knew that if i didnt bring myself back i would have fallen asleep?

ive just this second thought.......is it my subconsious which is bringing me back from the visions?

ralphm · July 30, 2002, 14:10:29

I think you must be in some kind of trance if you are having hypnogogic imagery- maybe if you could cultivate awareness and watch it then you will truelly be in the mind awke, body asleep condition. or let yourself go into sleep and see what happens.
I also have gotten in that state and could hold it for a while without projecting.
I usually project after falling asleep after doing the trance work, i will wake while it is happening.
Have you tried early mornings? i don't go to the bathroom before going to bed sometimes so i will be sure to awaken early morning, then it seems easier to project.
I vote you should get the book(or ask your library), I am on my third reading.
I think you are real close, however i seem to be stuck where you are most of the time, if it wasn't for "spontanious" projections i would not have any.
I think astral sight is a different thing, i have trouble with that sometimes.

Patty · July 30, 2002, 14:26:40

Hi RM,

I think I read somewhere that 80% of projections are from a sleeping state. So no, it's not every time, or for every person I guess. Frank sounds like he has a different approach, his phasing in thing. I really think it is individual, and to be honest, when Jeff started posting I was surprised to see how similar his approach is to my own (because I've read accounts from dozens of people and usually they sound really individual.)

You are allowed to play around with it

- like give yourself a week or two of trying a new variation and see if it works.

And again, my personal goal *isn't* to fall asleep. My personal goal is to stay awake. But I know that it won't be until my body shuts down that I will get out, and so - I let my body fall asleep while my mind keeps jerking to alertness. It sounds like that is going on with you and the hypnogogic imagery. So --- do you usually give up and go do something else or do you usually fall asleep? If you usually fall asleep, do you do so thinking "I'll try again another time?" I often try at night before bed, so that I know my body will konk out on me - and as long as I don't give in to the VERY SEDUCTIVE ALLURE of a good night's sleep, (which is what often happens) , then the snap back which you already describe re: hypnogogic imagery will kick in after you fall asleep.

I read somewhere that projecting from awakefulness (rather than from sleep) allows much more control. I don't really know how you can distinguish deep trance from sleep-with-consciousness-returning, though. but I kind of watch your posts and see if you make it with your more controlled attempts. I would LOVE to have a controlled light trance -> deep trance -> conscious OBE without any breaks in awareness. Man. Think of the possibilities. I'd be so much less worried about whether I was dreaming the whole thing, etc.

Anyway - I hope more folks with varying opinions chime in ----

Patty

jilola · July 30, 2002, 14:46:25

I still haven't achieved a fully conscious intentional OBE but I think may approach may be of use to you RodentMouse.

Every night and every single time I take a nap I say the same affirmatin that WHEN i exit my body i WILL become AWARE and be in CONTROL of the experience and that i WILL REMEMBER it afterwards.
The I give it the best go I can and hewre's the catch. If I make good but I dojnät worry about it and after the affirmaiton I don't allow any thought in my head to the contrary. I try to stay blank until I either get out or fall asleep.
This way the very last thoughts in my mind are to get out and to remember it.
No OBE, but some amazingly vivid dreams with nearly perfect recollection.

2cents

jouni

rodentmouse · July 30, 2002, 16:11:23

wow this has been the most promising feedback ive ever got i know i will be taking a new approach tonight....

ralphm watching what goes on in your minds eye is easier said than done, everytime i "get" some visions i think "ok, im gonna watch it" and BAM its all gone, its a cruel circle in which i seem to be stuck in, but i will try flowing with it tonight instead of constantly trying to remain aware, it never occured to me that my subconsiouss would kick start my sleeping mind.

Patti, thats exactly what i do, i train for OBE's in my house's spare room, and when i feel im not going to project i get up and go to my own room and simply go to sleep with some satisfaction that i have done my training, but also dissapointed that im still at the same stage i was a month ago.....

Jilola, i usually make my affirmations before i lie down and start my session, are they more affective if you goto sleep with them in mind?
i realise my affirmation is somehwat shunned when i start and recall my whole training schedule.

When i feel my training is done, should i simply call it a night and start to goto sleep in the position i was training in?? (in my spare room) as in going to sleep straight from my light trance instead of segregating OBE training and actuall sleep??

this "subconsious kick start" idea has got me quite excited about tonights attempt because i usually forget about OBE ing when i get up and goto my own bed.

it never occured to me to go to sleep straight from my trance and relaxed body. IM hoping this will open a new door in my development.

Patty · July 30, 2002, 16:53:57

Hi,

A couple things -

I don't know if you want to flow with the hypnogogic imagery or not. That sounds like you are letting your mind wander. I don't know. Whenever I realize that there is hypnogogic imagery, I try to get my mind back to empty full alertness, no images. The imagery feels like I am losing mental alertness. (But this is one area I have not played around with. Maybe Ralph is onto something.)

quote:
When i feel my training is done, should i simply call it a night and start to go to sleep in the position i was training in??

"calling it a night" means you are deciding to sleep. That's what you have to avoid. You have to maintain firm intent to stay conscious.

Your body will have its own ideas and will eventually konk out. If you are maintaining intent to stay conscious, you will keep snapping back to alertness. If you "call it a night," you might not have the snapback after your body truly falls fully asleep.

During periods where I have most success, I am 'training' all night (but I don't call it that. I just enjoy trance and messing with altered consciousness, and watching myself fall asleep is fun.) Which is to say, all night I am intent on staying alert, occasionally flowing energy through the system, keeping the mind blank and allowing the body to relax into sleep separately from my consciousness. (which manifests as the jerky snapback thing.) I sleep fitfully those nights and it might take a few such nights to have an OBE.

I hope people with other perspectives chime in - But I am also happy that you have a new avenue to explore. Yes, plan on staying in the guest room all night, and stay tranced. And allow your body to fall asleep there.

Disclaimer: It might not be the same sort of OBE that people claim to have from a different approach. I am not sure. It is what works for me. I hope to expand into more controlled approaches over time. Oh yeah - DON'T FORGET to keep your first outing brief. According to Robert, you might not remember it otherwise! Which would really be a bummer after all your hard work.

Patty

jilola · July 31, 2002, 01:39:13

Rodent: Don't let yourself think "I'll just watch these cool visions". Just watch them without thinking about them.

Rodent &Patty: I feel it's extremely important not to call it anything, especially no to decide to go to sleep. Your very last thought should be a firm affirmation to become aware and in control and to remember the experience.
If you don't get out while you're consciously working on it then just gradually stop and drift off to sleep trying to keep your mind as blank as possible.
After the affirmation the only thing in your mind should be the intent to OBE and remember. Maybe not even that but you have to stay mentally sharp so some activity is necessary.
I've had some very promising dreams wwhich I'm starting to suspect were actually lower power OBEs.

2cents

jouni

Frank · July 31, 2002, 05:30:30

RM: you are SO darned close!

The stray energy stage I use as a milestone telling me connection with the Astral is imminent. It happens when your focal point of awareness has drifted upwards to the point where it is just about to make Astral contact.

If you mentally comment on the imagery (and it is ever so hard not to) then your focal point of awareness immediately zaps back down to your throat region and spoils it. The trick is to allow yourself to pass through it.

You don't have to worry about whether you are at a particular level of trance, or not. If you are seeing stray energy that is the most important indicator of your progress. But yes, again I agree, it can be VERY distracting. So you must pass through as *swiftly* as possible.

Next time you get to this stage, or thereabouts, try bobbing up and down in your mind about 3 or 4 times a second. Like there was a golf ball at the centre-top of your brain that you could vibrate up and down about quarter of an inch either way. I do this sometimes if I stay at the stray energy stage more that a couple of seconds (I also practise doing this during the day).

Another technique I do is to imagine small hands massaging my temples, then I take the same hands and have one of them massage my forehead. I tend to first do circular motions and then some pressing actions then alternate between the two.

The actual massaging technique is not really all that important. It merely serves as some imagery that will get your focal point of awareness up that one last little step. That's all you need, and the Astral will automatically come into view. Which, of course, will almost certainly zap you out of it.

It's like someone turned on a light and you instantly begin seeing images as clear and as distinct as the ones you see with your physical eyes.

Yours,
Frank

jilola · July 31, 2002, 05:38:39

You mean I've been banging at the door and it's been open all the time!
How can this be so hard even when a good number of people keep telling us what to do to make that last bit click in place?
I've been watching the hypnogogic images almost every night for th epast two or three weeks and trying to figure out what to do next.
I'll try that bouncing thing tonight.

2cents

jouni

Frank · July 31, 2002, 07:34:54

I'd suggest you may be stuck because, from what you say, you stop to watch the images rather than let them pass you by.

This would prevent your focal point of consciousness traveling that last step upwards; which it needs to connect to the Astral so you start remotely viewing the Astral-proper; as opposed to viewing the mysterious stray-energy that, for some reason, dwells on the periphery.

Anyone who is detecting stray energy is on the verge of connecting to the Astral.

You do not necessarily have to be in a complete, "mind awake, body asleep state" in order to do this. The more I practice, the easier I can view the Astral whilst still having a sensation of my physical body. Whereas, before, I could only get to view the Astral from a complete "mind awake, body asleep" state.

I'm also wondering if I will eventually be able to learn to remotely view the Astral while my physical body is completely awake. Because that is the direction I seem to be taking.

I'm also wondering if this is what is meant by clairvoyance. I'm thinking maybe people who are such, were just born gifted with the ability to remote view the Astral whilst in a fully awake state. Rather than having to practise for months on end like most of us have to.

Yours,
Frank

Jeff_Mash · July 31, 2002, 08:30:14

quote:
Originally posted by rodentmouse:
thanks jeff_mash nad patti....

Jeff, i thought the key to OBE WAS to keep fully aware, i didnt know that at some point you had to let go and drift of into sleep.

You're right when you say the key is to be aware. However, you must be PASSIVELY aware. Imagine being a spectator, just someone on the sidelines watching that thing called your body drifting further and further into a relaxed state. I think a lot of people assume that being aware means still being "awake." Therein lies the key. You can be 100% aware while your body is 100% asleep.

quote:

The thing with the hypnogogic imagery jeff is that its just a dream to me, i only realise i was seeing the images when i actually snap back into the NOW hence it was my unconsiouss doing the work at not my own consiouss effort.
Has simply letting go and drifting to sleep what everyone on these boards does? i must have missed something

That would be a good question. Again, I am of the opinion that almost all people drift off into some state of "Sleep" before they experience this shift of consciousness. It's just that some may do it within seconds of falling asleep, and others take an hour.

quote:

so should i now once i raise energy and acheive a light trance, try to let go and let my subconsious desire do the rest??

Sure, try anything that you haven't tried before. You may be surprised at the results. Just keep in mind that while you are drifting from a light trance to a deep one, give yourself afffirmations that you WILL get out of body tonight.

quote:

everytime i have fallen into a hypnogogic vision, i bring myself back because i knew that if i didnt bring myself back i would have fallen asleep?

That is good, because by bringing yourself back, you are making your trance deeper and still working on this "snap back reflex", for lack of a better term. Hey, I like that one!

quote:

ive just this second thought.......is it my subconsious which is bringing me back from the visions?

I think it might be YOU who is bringing you back, because you're watching and waiting for an OBE, so anything that happens out of the norm, you get jumpy and wonder if "this is it." If anything, it's your subsconcious that is taking you further down, not bringing you back to an awake, physical state.

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

Jeff_Mash · July 31, 2002, 08:36:27

RodentMouse,

One more thing you may want to try, for poops and giggles. Have you ever tried to wake yourself up with an alarm clock really early in the morning? I used to do this when I first started out. WHat you can do is wake up about 3 hours before you normally get up. Stay awaye for about 15 minutes, walking around or sitting up and reading about OBE's. Then come back to bed. What happens is that you'll slip into this relaxed, trance state MUCH easier. The imagery will come almost immedietely, and you can shift into an OBE quicker.

I only say that becuase 75.2% of my OBE's usually happen after I get up in the middle of the night, go potty, and then lay back down. I'll drift off to sleep, but not long afterwards, I will snap back to awareness and "get out!"

Patty: I love reading your posts, honey! It's good to know that I have an astral counterpart out there whose experiences are very similar to mine!

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

jilola · July 31, 2002, 14:29:22

Frank: Can you give a brief description of the kind of hypnogogic imagery you get so that I can ascertain we're talking about the same thing.
See, on a good day I can get the images walking down the street. So if I don't have to reach a 100% mind awake, body asleep with all the vibes and stuff I can do away with a lot of detail.

2cents

jouni

rodentmouse · July 31, 2002, 17:10:36

Frank could you elaborate on "stray energy" i have always thought you meant the colours and lights you see when you close your eyes, but i didnt think this was a signpost telling me i was close to projecting as i get what i think you mean by stray energy everytime i close my eyes.

could you also elaborate on focal awareness rising, and where your focal point of awarness should be focused to OBE???
i assumed you meant only to focus on the brow and crown chakras, ( or the whole brain in generall) as they are apwards from the normal f.p.a.

my problem is i am always waiting for the OBE symptoms, weather it be sounds, sesnsations etc... and i think this is what is inhibiting me from getting out of body.
its like i keep a mental checklist and have to mentally cross of a symptom when i experience it. But trying to ignore this is like trying to flush out everything that made me want to OBE in the first place......

Is this simply a matter of concentration??

Frank · August 01, 2002, 03:42:29

Er, I'm confused: what colours and lights RM? When I close my eyes I just see nothing.

The stray energy I see (or can often hear as well) comes immediately prior to viewing the Astral and can take many forms.

Sometimes I see gargoyle-like faces (or more often parts of them). Shadowy figures can just appear. They zoom in and feel like they are pressing against me, then just suddenly go away as I pass through. I said before that once I could have sworn there was this half-head of a huge wolf just an inch from my face. Sometimes I have seen large cobweb-like strings that feel sort-of sticky as you pass.

Other times I've seen large outline drawings of all kinds of shapes. These shapes can be irregular shapes of anything, or they can be familiar regular shapes like squares, rectangles, triangles, etc. that just seem to float around but some can dance and jiggle about.

I've often seen whirls of colour that look like clouds in the Physical. It feels like being in a thick fog that is whirling around you that is all different colours. Only I cannot actually feel anything like you would feel air resistance on the Physical. I just see them whirling around me.

The energy seems to be able to take all kinds of forms. But, in my experience, all these forms tend to have one thing in common: whatever the form, it comes across as indistinct and shadowy.

There's never anything definite that you can pin down. One moment it's here, then it's there, or maybe it has gone just as suddenly as it came, and so forth. I suppose that is why they can be so darned distracting at first. Particularly as the images can often be accompanied by all kinds of pops, bangs, knocks, tearing and ripping sounds, etc.

Then, a few seconds later, it's like someone flicked a switch and I can see all kinds of Astral images. These images are totally different to any kind of stray-energy image in that they are as clear, as distinct and as fixed as the images I see with my physical eyes. Then I project my focal point of awareness forwards and mentally step into the image.

Yours,
Frank

jilola · August 01, 2002, 08:12:31

I see things as well when I close my eyes. It takes a few moments but then I start seeing blobs and cloudy shapes, sometimes the sort of sharp geometrical pattern you get if you press on your eyeballs a bit.
Some shapes that can be bit of faces or animal type forms but they dissolve as soon as I try to identify them
After a bit of meditation I quite often see a luminous shape at the corner of my eye. It's not distinct but more like a elongated oval.
The only sounds I've ever heard are similar to a cooli ng TV or a chair whose joints pop after it's been sat on for a while.

So based on your reply Frank, I take it that I'm close nand need just a little more to break through the stray energy part. That's good news

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>

2cents

jouni

rodentmouse · July 30, 2002, 11:39:20

hello to the people

i sometimes think i have got to the brink of projecting, then the next day i will realise that i havent experienced the pre-obe symptoms...

WHAT I HAVE DONE

1) i am farmiliar with the importance of staying aware and can do this for a while unless i am mentally tired, (where i fall asleep) i use breath awareness to relax.

2) i have got to the hypnogogic stage but every time i get a hypnogogic sound or image my awareness zips back into the NOW almost as soon as i aknoldge the sounds or images. am i not in a deep enough trance?

3) i can activate all my chakras and raise energy through my body , this i am most satisfied with so far because its the one "proccess" of OBE training i can confidently acheive.
i can also focus solely on a single chakra until my awareness goes into it, so far only with the heart and brow chakra, but again as soon as i do it i generally lose concentration and return to "normal awareness"

4) acheive a light trance, i dont think its a deep trance as i have not experienced waking paralysis.

5) got the vibrations and tingly feeling all over. Is the tingly feeling the astral body seperating??

WHAT I HAVENT DONE

1) I have not yet experienced this waking paralysis which some of you speak of. I can sometimes lay there motionless for 90 minuites and still be able to move my body..... is this is all down to concentration??? e.g is it only possible to acheive through meditation and not simply waiting for your body to shut down?

2) Astral sight, so many people speak of this but i still havent acheived it, again i think its due to my trance not being deep enough.

i can maintain a meditative state for as long as i want, but i get the occasional thought sneak into my head, lets say 3 thoughts a minuite, to acheive a deep trance should these thoughts be completely eradicated?

lets say your deepening trance state is a glass of water filling up, and once filled you are in a deep trance, do surface thoughts empty some water from the glass?

i dont yet have astral dynamics because im broke, would getting it guide my situation???

News:

help me clarify my development please