Validations anyone?

SkepticBoy · March 02, 2009, 15:13:26

Anyone please have any recent playing card or other validations from OBE's? do tell pls. (pls only reply if you've experienced anything)

PissedOff24 · March 02, 2009, 15:41:43

Why do you care if it's just a hallucination and not really real, oh great intellectual?

SkepticBoy · March 02, 2009, 15:45:24

Validations would prove it isn't an hallucination wouldn't it and seeing as they never seem to happen one can only conclude its all still in the mind

no_leaf_clover · March 02, 2009, 16:06:28

What makes you so sure what you experience here isn't a hallucination? How do you define "hallucination"?

SkepticBoy · March 02, 2009, 16:11:06

Hallucination is something which is created by the mind where as something that can be verified outside the minds normal senses say for example the correct playing cards during an OBE state, that would be external information the brain could not know, MORE than a hallucination.

sminson · March 02, 2009, 16:55:27

A playing card is a really bad choice for a validation. Most projectors have varying degrees of astral blindness. You would want something much more solid, a vase, a sneaker, or go out somewhere and see something happening in the real-time zone that you wouldn't have known was going on without being there.

Validations are easy to get, but you can't prove them to a person on an Internet forum, you need a friend to help you out and place something in a predefined spot for you.

Quote from: SkepticBoy on March 02, 2009, 15:45:24
Validations would prove it isn't an hallucination wouldn't it and seeing as they never seem to happen one can only conclude its all still in the mind

Validations happen all the time. It's very, very commonplace.

Lighten · March 02, 2009, 21:21:00

QuoteValidations happen all the time. It's very, very commonplace.

Lies also happen all the time. They are very,very commonplace. Not to mock you, just making a point.

Also, people on this forum tend to dislike skeptics. Buy you must be delusional not to be a skeptic. Even if you have had validating experiences you should still be skeptical. Anyone see the movie A Beautiful Mind? I don't know much about split personality or constructs of someones mind coming into "existence" like that but if it is the case, imagine how powerful the mind is. I personally think some form of conscious projection is possible, but have yet to experience anything meaningful.

My only point is to question everything and not have a bias. I wouldn't go so far as to say that half the people on these forums are lying but its a possibility. its also a possibility everyone is lying. Again not saying that they are, just making a point.

Pce

Steele · March 03, 2009, 18:27:14

i think if youre so skeptical than perhaps this isnt your place. i have been told many times that people who are interested in spiritual subjects such as astral projection possess the ability to do them. basically those who think spiritually will be drawn to spiritual practices. if you are drawn here by skepticism then i suggest you begin practicing astral projection and prove it for yourself. as a skeptic one can only sit back and denote the accounts of others. a skeptical practicer however will begin to see the light. simply because if you do not experience you cannot believe as easily. Besides how do you know that what we are all experiencing is real? what if you were to just wake up, go to the fridge then try to open it as your hand slips through?

Of course youve probably never had any type of experience. ive come very close to projecting. close enough to know that it exists. i can prove this using the dragon theory. about 15-30 seperate cultures all having no contact with each other at all. somehow all creaed pictures and stories of creatures called dragons. if you think about how amazing that is then it proves some sort of creature must have existed for 30 completely isolated societies to have stories about them. just like around 30 isolated societies long ago all practicing different religions have told of astral projections. Aztec Shamans left their body to predict things like droughts. The Druids practiced the trance state and work with project in their rituals. Buddhists, Hindu's and pretty much every religious culture has told of astral projection. i dont know how i can make this any clearer. take from it what you will.

Steele

Lighten · March 03, 2009, 23:14:30

I don't want to criticize you, but your logic is not logic at all. I appreciate that even though your not an experienced projector, somehow you know in your heart it is real. All I'm saying is that it would be unfair to oneself not to further investigate the phenomenon. And I'm not "so skeptical", I practice astral projection every day and have made some good progress, but that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly believe in something.

If you read my last post you would see that I said the mind is a powerful thing that can create people with personalities that you can see, hear, feel, smell. Everything about these people are real to you, yet they do not exist in reality (schizophrenia). Does that not mean something to you? Can you not conclude that your mind could make up a reality such as what you experience during an OBE? Which by the way is more similar to a dream that it is to reality.

Well to be objective, I'm not disagreeing with you btw, about your cultural similarities comment. I think there could be a few reasons why that would be (If the information is even true, which there is no way for you to verify). The astral projection thing is easy to understand because everyone can do it, people even claim to have spontaneous OBE's as kids, NDE, ect. So its quite obvious to see how these cultures could all come up with it separately.

And your point about a dragon, there are thousands and thousands of ancient cultures that have existed around the world. 99% of these cultures draw animals either for creative reasons, for spiritual reasons, or because they worship the animal due to the fact that it is their livelihood. So lets go with the spiritual and creative paths, since I doubt dragons really existed and they were hunting them for food. Now a snake that can fly....wow that was a tough one to come up with. 15-30 cultures out of thousands came up with a snake that can fly. They also came up with hundreds more combination of animals, birds with lizard heads, ect.

My advice to you would be to take all the information you receive and look at it objectively. Don't blindly believe what people write on the internet or in books. 90% of the world is usually wrong about things. Use your own brain and stop borrowing others. I came up with my counter arguments to your cultural thing is literally 30 seconds. Imagine what you could do if you thought about it for 5 min.

sorry if I sound mean, I'm not trying to be.

Stookie · March 04, 2009, 11:48:10

I agree with Lighten that it's good to question the reality and validity of astral experiences. With the astral, you can't take everything at face value. The more experiences I have, the more I question what's really going on behind the scenes, both in the world and my subconscious. I question whether my experience is objectively real or a symbolic experience. If you don't, it seems easy (to me anyways) to slip into fantasy. Which may be what some people want out of AP I guess.

While it started out "spiritual" for me, the spiritual aspects begin to become reality, and calling them spiritual seems to be playing them down, like it's supernatural powers and unexplainable, and it's not. Instead, the way the world works becomes much bigger. It's not supernatural or mystical, it's a real part of the universe that our physical science is just as much of a part of and dependent of. And until we understand it in a more scientific sense (which I believe is possible), there's always going to be religious/spiritual/mystical/cult slants on what is really happening.

If you come into astral projection with beliefs in tow, I think it's normal for AP to introduce a healthy amount of skepticism to those beliefs.

catmeow · March 04, 2009, 20:22:00

Yeh, Lighten has it right.

The film "A Beautiful Mind" really stunned me. When it finished I thought "what just happened?". For those who haven't seen it, it's a true story based on the life of Nobel prize winner John Nash whose hallucinations were so real he was actually living in a reality of his own all his life. He shared a room for a year or so with an "imaginary" friend. As real and solid to him as your "real" friends are to you. His reality was complete, just different to everyone else's. So who's reality was the "real" one - Nash's or ours?

Dunno... The film raises a lot of difficult questions. If I see a red car driving down the road, how can I be sure it's really there?

I personally know a couple of people who regularly see "ghosts". i.e. they see people in solid 3D technicolour, who other people don't see. Are they insane? Or are they seeing something real? Or is their "reality" just different to ours?

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/validation_thread-t25607.0.html

Arian · March 04, 2009, 21:38:04

Skepticism keeps you grounded. Do people on this site hate skeptics? from what I've seen, yes. I believe that is because the large majority of members on this site are beginners and don't want anyone raining on their parade.
I don't believe people are lying about their experiences. Embellishment, maybe.
As far as validation, your not gonna find anybody on this site (including myself) who will help further that cause. Its like asking a first year medical student to perform open heart surgery.

sminson · March 04, 2009, 23:13:04

Quote from: Lighten on March 02, 2009, 21:21:00
Lies also happen all the time. They are very,very commonplace. Not to mock you, just making a point.

Also, people on this forum tend to dislike skeptics. Buy you must be delusional not to be a skeptic. Even if you have had validating experiences you should still be skeptical.
Pce

Actually, I agree with you. I really think as soon as you have enough experience to feel comfortable with what's happening you should get a friend to place a random object for you in an agreed upon place in order to get validation. If you don't get validation you don't know if you're just having a semi-waking dream.

There is nothing wrong with healthy skepticism, but it struck me that SkepticBoy was being a bit of a bully. From what I've seen many, if not most, people here don't have much experience with actually being able to project, if they've been able to do it at all.

Now, I will admit that the validations you do get could be your mind tapping into the mind of the person placing the object, or some other sort of sixth sense at play. If that's the case, I think that's pretty interesting, but once you've done it you can't deny there's something unusual going on.

I still believe a playing card is a horrible choice, use an object, and even then I don't think you can prove it to a person on an Internet forum. It's yourself you should be proving it to.

tr0798 · March 04, 2009, 23:47:42

Quote from: no_leaf_clover on March 02, 2009, 16:06:28
What makes you so sure what you experience here isn't a hallucination? How do you define "hallucination"?

To answer SkepticBoy, No_leaf_clover has a point. Although other people can prove things experimentally, how can you prove that they or their experiments really exist? The mind is conditioned to equate object permanence with reality. Lets go to the topic of lucid dreaming, which is an experimentally proven real phenomenon.

Lets say you had developed the skill in lucid dreaming to the point where there was object permanence in your dreams because you willed it (this certainly is possible). Would this not qualify as reality?

If not, what is reality? Perceptions? These happen in dreams and astral projection. Existence of other people? How can you prove other people have consciousness like you?

Point here is, experimental techniques are limited in how you define reality. If reality is only what can be objectively experimentally proven... well then, you must not really have dreams... or a consciousness... these things are immaterial and cannot be quantifiably shown to exist.

(EDIT: I'm putting this here in case you try to make the point that every hardcore skeptic I know makes. Science can prove that we dream or that we are conscious, you say? Well, EEG's can prove WHEN you are conscious or dreaming, they cannot prove or show the intrinsic nature of what consciousness or dreams are. That is to say, someone CAN prove that you had a REM brain activity at 2:00 in the morning. Someone CANNOT prove that you had a dream about eating anchovy ice cream during that time. At least, this cannot be proven with modern technology or methods. And yet, we still acknowledge the existence of these things because it would be foolish and ignorant to dismiss them as false.)

If you think this is all just a load of babble, try out lucid dreaming. It is scientifically shown to exist. After lucid dreaming a few times, your whole viewpoint on what reality is will change, especially if you have highly vivid lucid dreams. They are indistinguishable from the "real world".

Things can exist despite lack of objective experimental proof. Example: Did other planets exist before we discovered them? Or did they suddenly appear into existence when we found out that other worlds beyond earth existed?

Maybe astral projection is merely something created solely in the mind. Maybe it's not. I haven't come to a conclusion just yet. However, instead of automatically assuming it is false, I am keeping an open mind on the issue until I see something that proves it one way or another.

Taking the view that something is false until proven (skepticism) is just as ignorant as taking the view that something is true until proven false (belief). Blind faith in skepticism is still blind faith.

bonthan · March 05, 2009, 00:14:03

Ok, this site does not hate skeptics, so far i've seen. As i was a skeptic myself and i understood how it is.

A skeptic who comes into this site are people who haven't had any type of astral projection at all, then he/she found out about astral projection, maybe on the internet, they heard that you can fly in astral plane and travel to beautiful places and talk with other beings etc, the idea sounds really appealing to them, but they are not sure if it really exist or not, because they don't wanna waste their time practicing the technique only to find out that astral projection is not real, so they go to a forum dedicated to astral projection and takes on the role of a skeptic, constantly asking numerous questions about the validity of OOBEs and usually laugh when somebody cannot prove to them or usually say "it's just hallucination", people, these skeptics have no bad intention, they just pretended to be non-believer so one day someone might be able to prove to them that astral projection is real, only then they can strip outside of their skeptic disguishes and truly commit to try to astral project.

To these skeptics, i know you all want to believe astral projection is real. We cannot offer you any proof so you have to go find out yourselves. Experience is your only answer. If you decide that it's only hallucination, fine, suck it up and get over it. The majority of people on this site KNOWS that astral projection is real so your validity questioning is pointless. Just keep trying and once you experienced astral projection, you can then answer your own question

catmeow · March 05, 2009, 14:22:06

I saw a program on dreaming the other day and apparently REM sleep does NOT necessarily indicate that someone is dreaming. Similarly NREM sleep does not indicate that we are not dreaming. Dreaming can occur at any stage during the sleep cycle.

The consultant on this program said that the only way to tell if someone is dreaming is to wake him up and ask him.

But sleep research does indicate that REM sleep tends to correlate with dreaming. There is also a correlation between the deeper stages of sleep and dreaming. The two types of dreaming are different (apparently). I think the consultant said that we tend to have more "negative" dreams during light (REM) sleep and more "positive" dreams during deep sleep. It seems that the two different types of dreams have different functions....

Steele · March 05, 2009, 20:34:37

im sorry my post was directed at skepticboy not you lighten though i did enjoy reading through your reply i must apologize for the hastiness in which my post was written as i see how i have aroused these counter debates. But nonetheless i love a good intellectual debate. ive found no one before you lighten has ever contested my dragon theory. i do agree however that dragons did not exist as no one has found any extremely credible evidence. and you dont sound mean lighten i appreciate your thoughts.

Steele

PissedOff24 · March 05, 2009, 21:10:40

I don't hate him, he just thinks he knows everything and has everything figured out. Being skeptical is not a bad thing, but how this guy is, maybe this is not the right place for him. He is trying to get rid of the grey area between real and fake, physical and metaphysical, using scientific explanations and what he thinks is right. Yet so far, I haven't seen any convincing evidence, just some arrogant comments from him. Besides, it is estimated that Science is hundreds of years away from figuring anything out beyond the physical, if it's possible. Yet he claims he has "FACT" that an OBE is all in your mind. Alright, show me this fact.

Lighten · March 05, 2009, 22:27:48

Thanks Steele, much respect.

bonthan · March 06, 2009, 02:54:56

Quote from: PissedOff24 on March 05, 2009, 21:10:40
I don't hate him, he just thinks he knows everything and has everything figured out. Being skeptical is not a bad thing, but how this guy is, maybe this is not the right place for him. He is trying to get rid of the grey area between real and fake, physical and metaphysical, using scientific explanations and what he thinks is right. Yet so far, I haven't seen any convincing evidence, just some arrogant comments from him. Besides, it is estimated that Science is hundreds of years away from figuring anything out beyond the physical, if it's possible. Yet he claims he has "FACT" that an OBE is all in your mind. Alright, show me this fact.

He just wanna be able to astral project man. He wants proof that astral projection is real but don't wanna do research, that's why he comes here to start a debate so everybody who wanna win in an argument with him would go all over the internet and look for information and post it here, and then he can read it without looking all over the place. As I said man, he wants to believe. But I can see that so far he's hasn't get any validation yet because it has been stated a million times that THE ONLY ANSWER IS YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE!!! He's just like us but he just took a different approach (skepticism) to find the answer rather than finding out on our own like everybody else are doing. You know what I mean?? Probably not lol I'm kindda lost too

SkepticBoy · March 06, 2009, 12:10:13

Even if I did OBE I'm sure I would have a wonderful time out there and everything but when it actually came to verifying anything in the physical world from the Etheral plane, such as number cards or objects, i'd fail just like everyone else.

The proof shows that time after time after time people are failing the oldest but yet simplest and most effective determination test: the number cards.

bonthan · March 06, 2009, 12:31:40

Quote from: SkepticBoy on March 06, 2009, 12:10:13
Even if I did OBE I'm sure I would have a wonderful time out there and everything but when it actually came to verifying anything in the physical world from the Etheral plane, such as number cards or objects, i'd fail just like everyone else.

The proof shows that time after time after time people are failing the oldest but yet simplest and most effective determination test: the number cards.

Look, the world that you astral projected to is NOT the physical world, it's just another similar dimension so whatever you see is not necessarily exist in the physical world. Maybe when you hide the card in the physical world, when you astral project the card is a different one. I wish you go and research more before you go here and try to start a debate, even though no one here seems to even consider your argument.

SkepticBoy · March 06, 2009, 12:53:49

The only research I have seen is that verification experiments fail all the time. What more proof is needed? its nothing more than all in the mind including a dimension which is similar to the physical.

catmeow · March 06, 2009, 13:51:06

It's good to be skeptical. I'm skeptical. SkepticBoy says that the "card trick" never works, but this isn't quite true.

Well who ever seems to succeed with this? all I seem to hear about are tests where people try and do this but cant.

Show me a documented test where they did this and succeeded pls.

PissedOff24 · March 06, 2009, 16:52:06

Quote from: SkepticBoy on March 06, 2009, 12:53:49
The only research I have seen is that verification experiments fail all the time. What more proof is needed? its nothing more than all in the mind including a dimension which is similar to the physical.

How about Scientific proof, and an explanation proving that this indeed is triggered from within the brain? The "evidence" you attempted to spew out was nothing. The stuff you said has not proved that "its nothing more than all in the mind including a dimension which is similar to the physical" it simply proved that you cannot prove what you are trying to get across.

News:

Validations anyone?

PissedOff24

Stookie

PissedOff24

PissedOff24