Validations anyone?

[PissedOff24]

Oh and by the way, nobody is "raining on my parade" here, thank you very much. If you think you are, please don't flatter yourself. I simply come on this site to ask questions and hopefully get answers from people who are more experienced in astral travel than me. I'm curious, I'm allowed to be, and I never will stop being curious. That's it 

[Astral316]

I figure a playing card is a bad choice for this reason... the expectation alone of seeing a number on a card is enough to let your subconsious take over that aspect of the experience and produce whatever number it wants.

Anyway, having had several OBEs recently and many throughout my childhood, I can say whatever it is... it happens. I've only had vague dreams in the last year or two... all very similar to eachother in that they were episodic, I don't have any control, and can barely recall them after. Since meditating, I not only recall the dreams, I experience them. I see things with crystal clarity, and can move at will throughout the environment. I can think of questions and ask them and get answers in return. None of my dreams were ever like that before. Now is it in the mind? I'll be the first to say it is. But that begs the question... what is the mind? What is consiousness and how does it relate to physical reality? I don't think we could even fathom the mechanics behind it, much less prove them through scientific means. My advice is not to question it, but experience it and learn from it.

[bonthan]

its nothing more than all in the mind including a dimension which is similar to the physical.

And do you have proofs to back this up?

[Lighten]

Its not fair for skeptic boy to use the card validation as his only argument. In order to use such a black and white validation method you would have to first understand how these altered states of reality work. And no one can tell you how they work. Everyone has a different idea.

I do agree on one point, it is quite frustrating these OBE's are so hard to prove. But like everyone else says, the best way to prove it is to experience a validation for yourself.

A question for the skeptics - Is it even possible for your brain to recreate detailed scenes all from memory? "Scientist" say we discard most of our memories because there would be to much to remember every day (I'm talking details, like which way the brush is facing in the bathroom).

A question for the believers - Can you see accurate details when you project? Like which way the brush is facing in the bathroom? or which brick is slightly out of place down the street? For me, this would be the best validation. I am a bealiver in the power of the human brain but remembering everything we see, in detail, would be ridiculous. Why cant I find my keys....

[PissedOff24]

Lighten, people have been able to verify things while having an OBE in houses of their family members or neighbors, or places they haven't been before. I think it was Buhlman who explained his experience of when he projected and he saw that his teacher had a cast on her leg. He was curious about this because he saw his teacher before (she always wore full pants) and her leg seemed fine. The next day he asked her if she was ok, and she told him that it was indeed a white hot water bottle that was tied around her knee because her leg was sore. So perhaps Buhlman thought it was a cast because he was just passing by, you never know. But the point is that people have seen things they have never seen before while in the physical, and have verified it later while back in the physical. If it was just a hallucination in your mind, then there is no way you could do that!!!

LOL, I get what you mean about what you said about the brain. I don't know if it was Buhlman or the other people who have written books on the subject of astral travel who had this experience.

[SkepticBoy]

K thx for your posts.

Let me ask you all something though, how else can a person prove these are real than by reporting back with information that could not have been known by the usual senses? does anyone else have a better idea of validating these are real? so many people here are just getting carried away with the experiences and how lovely they are and just missing that its all in the mind. The problem here is I think you guys are wanting these to be real too bad.

Someone also mentioned that when you try and validate anything in the physical when OBE, you see things that fluctuate such as numbers will change on a numbercard etc. This may be true but in all the history of people trying to validate these experiences properly and scientifically you would think just 1 person would had been able to get 1 or a few right despite this possible problem. I mean OBE research is nothing new.

Now this is all i'm asking.....with respect ....someone PLEASE give me a link to A successful documented controlled scientific OBE validation experiment. Then i'll leave in peace.

[bonthan]

I guess you could try googling Robert Monroe, who did a test with Dr. Charles Tart, out of eight attempts he projected twice and accurately described the placements of specific objects in the other room. I don't have any documents of this because my name is not Doctor Charles Tart or Robert Monroe so I don't have access to those papers. Again, the astral dimension is similar to physical plane, not the same, so it's a hit or miss that the validation works.

[PissedOff24]

Nope, you STILL haven't given me or anyone else who asked PROOF that it is all in the mind. After all this, you still come back and say that stuff over and over again. You have no proof! Thus, you can't say that is in the mind. You have no evidence, so you can't say that. I think you want it be in your mind that bad, so you are persisting by saying the same thing over and over again.

[Astral316]

so many people here are just getting carried away with the experiences and how lovely they are and just missing that its all in the mind. The problem here is I think you guys are wanting these to be real too bad.

The problem here is your definition of "in the mind" is a contained space of physical matter isolated on every mechanical level from one another and/or a higher collective source. Your concept of reality seems to end with your five senses, disregarding the possibility that we as animals weren't equipped to sense every aspect of it. Open your mind to the possibility that science hasn't scratched the surface of "truth" and most likely never will. Don't make a silly assumption that enjoying these experiences is "missing" anything. Beating the phenomena to death and holding it to a materialistic standard, however, is missing something. I suggest trying it youself unless you feel like debating in circles is accomplishing something. I mean you're kind of like a random shmoe who reads an airplane manual and than attempts to give a pilot flying tips.

[sminson]

K thx for your posts.

Let me ask you all something though, how else can a person prove these are real than by reporting back with information that could not have been known by the usual senses? does anyone else have a better idea of validating these are real? so many people here are just getting carried away with the experiences and how lovely they are and just missing that its all in the mind. The problem here is I think you guys are wanting these to be real too bad.

Someone also mentioned that when you try and validate anything in the physical when OBE, you see things that fluctuate such as numbers will change on a numbercard etc. This may be true but in all the history of people trying to validate these experiences properly and scientifically you would think just 1 person would had been able to get 1 or a few right despite this possible problem. I mean OBE research is nothing new.

Now this is all i'm asking.....with respect ....someone PLEASE give me a link to A successful documented controlled scientific OBE validation experiment. Then i'll leave in peace.

We lack sufficiently sensitive instruments at this time to validate an OBE, other than the testimonial evidence of "I saw X" with X being something they could not have seen or known about from their physical vantage point.

I don't know about fluctuating numbers  - the problem in my experience is that you can't see well.  You don't have "EYES" so something written is a bad choice.

For your answers, in addition to the Monroe Tests that have been mentioned, you should read these:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research11.html

http://aleroy.com/FAQz28.htm

http://www.psywww.com/asc/obe/missz.html

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0120993/obefull.html

unless you'd just like to stir the pot.  Actually proper scientific astral projection/OBE research has basically not been done, because it carries the taboo of parapsychology in the academic community.  There have been like two, maybe three studies total, and the results favor the believers.  They've then been discounted because the academic leading the study had an open mind about the subject.

MUCH more has been done on NDEs.  I've given you links to both - so enlighten thyself.


A question for you regarding this statement:

so many people here are just getting carried away with the experiences and how lovely they are and just missing that its all in the mind.

Why would that bother you?
Happy Times

[catmeow]

Mods - IMPORTANT --

Can you please look at my last post in this thread

It's good to be skeptical.  I'm skeptical.  SkepticBoy says that the "card trick" never works, but this isn't quite true.

Well who ever seems to succeed with this? all I seem to hear about are tests where people try and do this but cant.

Show me a documented test where they did this and succeeded pls.

This isn't my post!  The only part of this post which I wrote is the first sentance.  The rest of it was somehow edited by Skepticboy. Look at the "Last Edit" info it is attributed to Skeptic boy. How did this happen?

This is worrying - my posts get edited by someone else?

Please look at it urgently

Thanks

[catmeow]

Hi sminson - well done for digging out thise links you beat me to it!

My last-but-one post somehow got corrupted by Skepticboy (he must have used his psychic powers to do this!) so I'll try to repeat the info here. 

A new scientific multi-centre hospital study is going to collate 15000 NDE experiences in cardiac arrest subjects.  They are placing a card containing a picture on a shelf above the operating table. If someone is resuscitated they will ask him if he saw the card.  They will statistically evaluate how accurate the descriptions are.  This will be a scientific study with appropriate controls in place and it will span a number of hospitals.  NDEs are taken seriously by doctors and nurses.

http://www.mindbodysymposium.com/
http://www.mindbodysymposium.com/human-consciousness-project.html

Personally from the research I have done on OBEs and NDEs, NDEs easily provide far more accurate veridical information.  I don't know why this is, but (if NDEs are real) it probably has something to do with the fact that "dead" people are wholly out of the body and therefore fully functional out of the body so to speak.  So everything is working correctly in terms of perceiving the physical world.

Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing the results of this study.

The following is a small-scale similar study which has already been conducted.  It costs £85 so obviously I haven't bought it, but I will go to the library to get a copy to see what the results were:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Near-death-Experiences-Hospitalized-Intensive-Patients/dp/077345103X/ref=sr_1_1

To state that OBEs are "all in the mind" without any evidence to support this position is simply to present an opinion as fact.  In other words it is a valid opinion but a worthless critique.  Sorry Skepticboy I'm not getting at you, but stating an opinion as if it is a fact just gets people's backs up.

[catmeow]

Some more resources:

The Near-death Experiences of Hospitalized Intensive Care Patients: A Five-year Clinical Study - Penny Sartori PhD

She now intends to continue her research into the phenomenon and is developing a private theory, not included in her book, about what could be happening to these patients.

"I don't think it's quite as simple as life after death," she said.
"It's what consciousness is and how we define it. We are entering an exciting time researching consciousness.
"Current science says it is a by-product of the brain. But it may be that consciousness is around us and the brain might be a mediator, an antenna, instead of controlling consciousness.
"It is a fascinating subject and I'm looking forward to continuing my research," she added.

Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands - Pim van Lommel PhD et al

Several theories have been proposed to explain NDE. We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological, or physiological factors caused these experiences after cardiac arrest. Sabom mentions a young American woman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation, which was eventually successful, this patient proved to have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body experience, with subsequently verified observations during the period of the flat EEG.
...
With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE, the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s from onset of syncope. Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation

[PissedOff24]

catmeow, I don't know if it possible for him to actually edit the posts you made, but there is something about this guy that doesn't seem right  . He's kind of "strange".

Oh no, skepticboy has psychic powers!?! But it's all in the mind, right?

Edit: That's kind of weird man, maybe an admin should do something. Seeing: last edited by skepticboy on your post is really odd.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

For the sake of argument, what's the usefulness of proving to skeptics? You either have these experiences and believe, or you don't and then go on your merry way.

What about the old saying, don't cast pearls before swine.

And then there is confusion about the intent of these practices and too many people getting interested in or thinking that projection is a way to gain an advantage in material pursuits.

For example, common question: Can I go anywhere and check up on people, travel, gain confidential information.

Gee, wouldn't it be great to just AP to the movie theater and see movies for free. Or see a great rock concert from a perfect vantage point. How about hanging out in Vegas or Broadway and see all the shows for free? Hey, how about the private screenings of new Hollywood movies, get the scoop and reveal all! Ease drop on corporation board meetings, get inside trader information.  Find out what your enemy is planning... etc.....

How about, this is only for spiritual development, we don't need to show any proof. You study, practice, and through experience, you will validate for yourself? (I know this advice is given here frequently)

I'm not qualified to give lectures, just offering what I think is a common view, sorry if I'm overstating the obvious.

[catmeow]

Yeh, I know it sound slike a cop-out, but I wonder if these things are meant to be difficult or impossible to actually prove.  Maybe it's part of life's plan.  If we knew for certain there was a life after death our entire interactions with each other on this planet would be totally changed.  And that would probably defeat the whole purpose of why we are here.

[SkepticBoy]

K thx for those reply's and Links i'm going to read up for a while. TY all for your posts.

Also about the thing with Catmeow, I don't know why that happened I just quoted something from what he replied to me previously and for some reason I posted under his name?!?!?!?

Thx by the way to pissedoff for calling me strange. (rolls eyes)

[catmeow]

No worries SkepticBoy, it's a glitch in the system. Adrian the site owner will look at it (hopefully)

[PissedOff24]

K thx for those reply's and Links i'm going to read up for a while. TY all for your posts.

Also about the thing with Catmeow, I don't know why that happened I just quoted something from what he replied to me previously and for some reason I posted under his name?!?!?!?

Thx by the way to pissedoff for calling me strange. (rolls eyes)

No problem buddy! Thanks for your posts too!!

[iNNERvOYAGER]

If we knew for certain there was a life after death our entire interactions with each other on this planet would be totally changed. 

Sounds like a good reason to me.

Another side to the purpose of validation argument can have something to do with how the phenomenon is observed. If we relied on only observation to explain celestial mechanics, then we'd all still believe that the universe orbits the earth.

EDIT: Copernicus and Kepler discovered a great deal about the solar system planet orbits without the telescope, the point being that instruments and sensory enhancements reveal much more of course. Maybe after a point the consciousness can be that instrument of ultimate discovery.

Hopefully in the future a sensor or instrument will revolutionize the study of AP the way the invention of the lens and telescope revolutionized astronomy.

What if AP could be expressed mathematically the way the physical universe is? Or an entirely new form of scientific expression discovery?

[Greytraveller]

One or two points of interest to consider relevant to this thread.

First is that many skeptics consider that OBEs occur only within a person's mind. That misses the crucial point completely - which is whether of not the person's mind is Inside or Outside of their physical body at the time of the OBE. The complete separation of consciousness from physical body is what sets the Out of Body Experience apart from other psychic states such as dreaming, lucid dreaming, remote viewing and clairvoyance.

Second is that validation has been achieved many times, both inside and outside a lab. The Monroe-Tart experiments was mentioned in an earlier posts. Several APulse members (Including the Voice Of Silence) have achieved validated OBEs on a number of occasions.

I have mentioned this before in previous posts, but it bares repeating -- IMO arguing with skeptics is only a BIG waste of time. Rarely is anything useful gained by it and the time spent is usually better spent elsewhere. (Trust me -- I know from personal experience.) 

Grey

[chakra74]

When I was younger, about 12 years ago I had a few validating experiences myself.  I thought it was clairavoyance at the time, but 2 times that it happened to me must of been astral projection. 

I was doing what skeptic suggested at the time, I was holding an entire deck of cards in my hand in front of me while meditating.  I was trying to see the top card on the deck (yet was holding the entire deck).  All of the sudden I broke free and felt myself whip around the room and back through the deck of cards in front of me then back into myself.  While traveling through the deck I saw each card, but could only remember the last 3-4 cards since it happened so fast.  I then opened my eyes and verified the 3-4 cards I saw and it was correct.

Oh I'll tell the rest of the story later.  I'm late for something.