PROOF OF OBE-Please read

[beav31is]

There was something in the room I am sure I didnt know what it said. I read it OOB and read the same thing in body after that. I will never doubt OOB is real because of that.

[manuel]

yep, on my early obe adventures, i floated into my mums room, and looked down at my mums bed, i saw my mum asleep, and i noticed my dad was not in bed, i noticed the bed sheats pulled away, after coming back to my body, i go into my mums room, and see the same thing, i had no prior knowledge of this, other things, stuff like weather, clouds, position of sun etc have all turned out true.

[Greytraveller]

2 or 3 weeks ago parapsychologist Charles Tart was a guest on the Coast To Coast AM radio show with George Noorey.
Tart talked about a lab experiment he ran years earlier. That lab experiment was about people who attempted to have OBEs in a controlled setting. Tart placed a card with a 4 digit number on top of an eight foot tall cabinet. He asked each person to read the number on that card if/when that person projected. According to Tart one person did project And successfully read the correct number on that card. The odds of that happening by pure chance are 10,000 to 1 !!   []

[stephen~]

You'd think these kinds of tests would - as Gorkem says - shut all mouths. However  over time it just becomes one more piece of hearsay evidence, and the 'older' it is the 'less true' it seems to become. I have got into a few arguments about these kinds of things. First they say something like the test conditions weren't stringent enough, then it is 'he could have guessed the number' statistically a possibilty, however unlikely. Eventually, no matter what the arguments, no matter what the tests, the final retort is usually along the lines of 'well I just don't believe it is possible.. laws of physics ..blah blah'.

Even a worldwide live broadcast test of this nature on all channels would still not convince those that don't want to be convinced. I too have proved it - to the guy in the mirror, and I think that's the only person I can ever really hope to prove it to.

[Gorkem]

Yes Grey, I have also read that experiment from Mr. Tart's website.  The point is that the OBEer in the experiment was a lady who knew nothing about OBE.  She just used to have OBEs without her will at nights.  She succeeded only at the last night.  If s/he was an experienced OBEer at anytime any moment s/he could prove OBE is an objective reality.  "Scientist"s should have the courage and will to use an experienced OBEer in their experiment and see by their own eyes that what they assumed for a long time a "myth" is a "reality" just like any ordinary thing in the world.  If they do not do this, then that means they are definitely prejudiced, a trait a scientist cannot have.  There are even serious rumors that CIA has used experienced OBEers.  OBE should actually be used for universally good purposes which will help mankind improve themselves spritually and intellectually.  It is a pity that NASA does not regularly use experienced OBEers for exploring space and universe.

 Love and Light,
   Gorkem.

[Mirador]

A few nights ago, I awoke around midnight when I felt a small soft hand grabing my right hand as I slept face down with my arm hanging partially down the head of the bed. I got up startled and surprised and I found no one in the locked room except my wife Altagracia sleeping next to me. I speculated in my thoughts all kinds of possibilities incluiding that some relative had come to say his last goodby. I noticed I had come down with heartburn, so I reached for a bottle of Milanta antiacid and took a cap full. It didnt take me long to fall back asleep. Now upon awakening in the morning, my wife lets in the room our two and a half years old son, Aroa, who asks me if I wanted ginger tea (it happens that ginger tea is what I usually take for stomach ailments). I tell him no, that I want my usual cup of coffee. Then Aroa stares at me in a strange way and asks me if I'm afraid. I'm surprised he used that expressión, since I was sure he didnt even understand the concept. I tell him I'm not afraid and bounce the question back to him, and he says he isn't afraid either. I have the uncanny impression it was his hand that woke me up the night before.

Angel Romero

[Gorkem]

Mirador what is the relation?  Please let us make related comments on the topics.  Let us tell each other the OBE experiences which proved to ourselves that we are immortal.  Maybe people who do not believe will think about it one more time after reading those.  Let us help each other.

 Love and Light,
   Gorkem.

[Greytraveller]

Gorkem -
I strongly agree with you in that most scientists are Strongly Prejudiced against OBEs/NDEs. The few scientists that do experiment in this field are largely ignored by 'mainstream' science. Evidence in support of OBEs is usually ignored as well.
This is indeed a sad state of affairs. [V]

[Mirador]

Gorken,

I am fascinated and awed by the level of abstraction and conceptualization that goes on here. I enjoy it, but I can't think that way, and believe that it all it could do is help polish up my English. Regarding my posting I was referring to my two year old son's psychic ability and my surprise at his antics. Maybe it has something to do with OBE as I understand your concept. But I hope you understand that your concepts are just a ruse to help you understand, and that your abstractions don't exist. OBE as opposed to IBE, or ABE or UBE or even EBE, for example. Sorry for that. I, like many others, are born with it, and we learn to recognize it in others. Some of us hide it for the totality of our lives, others use it and polish it, some of us share it, and also fight each other. Some of us are very destructive, others use it in all sorts of ways. For some of us it's a curse and suffer to no end. Some of us take it to mean we have a mission so we heal and help people with problems. We dont call it 'psychic' like you, we call it having 'el don' or just 'tener misterios' and we are allowed to refer to each other respectfully as 'Curiosos'. We are not particularly responsible, nor religious, or even mystical,  we just 'see' things and 'do' things most people couldn't even imagine, and many would think we are just plain crazy.

Mirador

[Gorkem]

I respect and adore you Mirador.  I just could not see the relation between my topic and what you wrote previously.  Children tend to have more pyschic abilities and continue to have unless parents tell them they should stop remembering their previous lives, talking to imaginary friends, having OBEs, etc.  Knowing that psychic abilities are as normal as athletic abilities is being on the right track.

 Love and Light,
   Gorkem.

[RoyHarper]

"Science says there is no spirit no after life, everything occurs in the brain"

This a reflection of bad logic, not good science.  Simply put, just because during death there is activity in the brain doesn't disprove or prove the existance of anything aside from activity in the brain.

"OBEs are definitely lucid dreams"

This is something you have to experience to truly know.  A lucid dream is like listening to a cd, while an OBE is like watching a movie.  They are clearly different phenomenons.  Moreover, whether or not they exist as we explain them doesn't disprove their existance.  I believe it was Stephen J. Gould (although I could be wrong) that said that it's irrelevant whether you believe in déja vu or not, there is something different that occurs in the brain during these experiences.  Don't get hung up on the explanation, it's the experience that matters.

Also, science doesn't exist inside of a lab.  It's a process that can be done by anyone anywhere.  Once you begin to believe that science and elitism is one of the same thing, you have just defeated the point of science.  A bias should not control your results or tests.

[Noxerus]

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[Gorkem]

It is true when you wake up yourself from a lucid dream (make sure it is not a fake wake-up) you sometimes are about to seperate from your physical body.  Other than waking yourself up and then trying to seperate, do you know an efficient way to use lucid dreams as a jumping board into OBE?  I always wanted to learn this since I tend to have many lucid dreams.  I am going to ask this in the forum as a new topic too.  Thank you.

 Love and Light,
  Gorkem.

[beav31is]

Some brain frequencies are easier to OBE with than others, but they shouldnt be required. You can OBE without a brain at all.

[Greytraveller]

I would like to reply to the opinion that all lucid dreams are OBEs.
It would make far more sense to think that some, but not all, lucid dreams are OBEs.
Many people report projections where their state of consciousness is very clear and awake. This is a Lucid consciuousness yet is Very Undream-like.
So there is most probably an area where some lucid dreams and OBEs overlap. Yet this does not imply that ALL lucid dreams are projections.

[beav31is]

I think most dreams (lucid or not) are just different distances into the astral, OBE being farther in. There isnt a line between OBE and dreaming.

[Gorkem]

I previously wrote that Krishnamurti said "everything occurs in the brain".  I recently read that he said "Mind are brain are completely two different seperate things"  I apologize from you and him about my misunderstanding.
I also have a thing to say to skeptics.  Think about this deeply : Would you be able to explain "gravity" to prehistorian people?  Gravity was always real and still is and always will be.

 Love and Light,
   Gorkem.

[Greytraveller]

Beware of answers that only involve the brain or psychological theories. Most times those answers are only gross oversimplifications that really leave more questions than answers.
A good example is the recent report that French scientists 'induced' an OBE in a person by stimulating the angular gyrus area of their brain. If you read that report you would have noted that the person who claimed to have the OBE simply recalled seeing parts of her body from unusual angles. Then, without further explanation, the scientists stated that it was theoretically possible that the angular gyus 'explained' OBEs. The stort received ALOT of media attention yet, of course, the explanation actually did not explain anything at all!![?][?][V]

[Gorkem]

Have you ever seen things in your OBEs which you would not know by any chance and after ending your OBE checked to see if they are really there?  I think that is the main point which will shut all mouths saying "OBEs are definitely lucid dreams"(even one of the best-known scientists in lucid dreaming, Stephen LaBerge says this) or "Science says there is no spirit no after life, everything occurs in the brain".  It is a big tragedy to think that not being able to explain something with our current scientific knowledge makes it not being able to "be".  This is not a scientific approach.  Why do not those "scientist"s take an experienced OBEer and test if s/he can see what is behind a wall?  Has not this simple thing which will prove OBE been done for all of these years?  I think Mr. Bruce and other experienced OBEers should make a comment on this question of mine and enlighten people.  I know that in some institutes' experiments, they even check if it is the skill of telepathy or OBE by putting a letter behind a special glass.  Glass shows the letter different, so when you look at the letter it seems different.  I think the answers given to my question will be the proof of OBE is a real phenomenon and we are not only physical entities.  Thank you and keep the faith.

 Love and Light,
   Gorkem.