I've been trying to separate but have failed every time. I sit there and count from 99 to 0 to stay aware and get my body to sleep, but all that happens is I end up lying there for 60-90 minutes getting bored. Nothing actually happens. I don't get any hypnagogic imagery. I don't feel any vibrations, sleep paralysis or sensations of floating. I just seem to be relaxed and in a state of nothingness. I try the "mind awake/body" asleep mantra and still no success.
So lately I've been trying a different approach. I try to be a passive observer and just watch the hypnagogic imagery without being pulled into it. But I fail at that too. I read the technique is after a while you have to step into the dream. What happens is I fall asleep almost instantly as soon as the imagery starts. There have been a few times I caught myself snoring but it never went further than that.
I just don't know what to do. I tried to create my own landscape in my mind and engage all the senses. I can do that, but then my body wouldn't fall asleep. I tried to visualise a rope but that hasn't worked at all. Every night I either fall asleep or lay there with nothing happening. I'd sincerely appreciate any help or advice.
QuoteI just seem to be relaxed and in a state of nothingness.
You may have failed at "separation" but you have reached the necessary state.
What you are calling nothingness is what many call being connected to everything.
Quote from: Astralzombie on October 03, 2013, 05:38:22
You may have failed at "separation" but you have reached the necessary state.
What you are calling nothingness is what many call being connected to everything.
But nothing happens. This is why I;m frustrated. I still feel very connected to my body. When I use to word nothingness I mean I'm not sleeping, not dreaming, not fully awake, not feeling any sensations.. nothing. I just lay there. I've never even felt the paralysis state yet.
Quote from: Dan4487 on October 03, 2013, 05:29:12
I've been trying to separate but have failed every time. I sit there and count from 99 to 0 to stay aware and get my body to sleep, but all that happens is I end up lying there for 60-90 minutes getting bored. Nothing actually happens. I don't get any hypnagogic imagery. I don't feel any vibrations, sleep paralysis or sensations of floating. I just seem to be relaxed and in a state of nothingness. I try the "mind awake/body" asleep mantra and still no success.
So lately I've been trying a different approach. I try to be a passive observer and just watch the hypnagogic imagery without being pulled into it. But I fail at that too. I read the technique is after a while you have to step into the dream. What happens is I fall asleep almost instantly as soon as the imagery starts. There have been a few times I caught myself snoring but it never went further than that.
I just don't know what to do. I tried to create my own landscape in my mind and engage all the senses. I can do that, but then my body wouldn't fall asleep. I tried to visualise a rope but that hasn't worked at all. Every night I either fall asleep or lay there with nothing happening. I'd sincerely appreciate any help or advice.
This may not be you. This is how I am. I can relate to you as I am having a dry spell at the moment. I have not been trying a lot but it gets frustrating when it does not work. I am not worried about it. I know I will ap again and get back into it. There are times when I am lying there and nothing happens. The reason I think is because a part of me does not want to make the effort. I want to go to sleep. This may not be you. To ap you really have to want to ap not just half wanting to ap. There are times when I do make the effort and I do not ap. I have been trying at a harder time to ap. I have been trying in the afternoon or evening. The best time to ap for a lot of people is you have some sleep first and when you wake up, then try to ap. You have to feel relaxed, particularly your mind. If your mind feels agitated it will be harder to ap. When you start to feel bored it is better to get up and do something for a while then try again. I find it a waste of time if you lie there for a long time and you have had enough. Forget the vibrations. It is not important as you do not have the get vibrations to ap. If you think of getting the vibrations that might prevent you to ap as your mind has to be relaxed. When you feel that you are relaxed and in a state of nothingness you could do an ap technique. That might work. When you do an ap technique, really think you are doing that activity. Do not think of your body as that will end it.
When you watch the hypnagogic imagery your mind has to be extremely relaxed or it will likely fail. You cannot think of anything. You can spiritually get out of yourself but most people do not seem to like doing that.
I have imagined things as well and it does not work probably for the same reason as you. Your mind has to be very relaxed. Have you tried meditating? Meditating is very helpful. It can help a lot to ap. There are times when I fall asleep. I think everyone does. I think when it happens is because I have lost concentration. You cannot afford to loose concentration. If you do not concentrate for that one moment you can fall asleep. At that moment you were likely to ap but you switched off.
I just looked at the thread "The Steps To Success In Your First Projection", and it helped immensely. I think I have more of an idea of what I'm doing wrong.
1st mistake - trying to project at bedtime (10pm).
2nd mistake - looking too hard for the vibrations
3rd mistake - my mind being too active.
When I think back now to a time I tried to project in the afternoon when I was drowsy, I'm sure that was when I actually felt closer. The swallowing reflex ruined it at the time but I have fixed that now. Somehow I need to be more passive. I'm determined to do this. I need to figure out a way of not being too passive that I just end up falling asleep and not being too active so that I'm kept awake.
I'm just trying to get you to see this from a different angle.
You are frustrated with failure instead of acknowledging the success that you have made. I honestly do not know what makes that subtle difference for those of us that finally achieved our first conscious AP but I do believe that most people are at the threshold of success and some have even crossed it and did not realize it.
Perhaps they have set their expectations too high. They expect their first OOBE to be just like the great experiences that we have all read. The kind that changes people's lives forever and leaves no doubt that we are not flesh and bone but spirit. They expect to meet great beings of enlightenment and become privy to great secrets of the cosmos.
The reality is that these kinds of experiences are rare. Many of us have had them but most people have to spend years navigating their way through something that may not even be navigable. It certainly can't be charted on a map but what we learn is based upon years of micro experiences with the occasional grand OOBE.
We then use labels and terms to describe common experiences so that we can relate to one another and hopefully verify in some small way that what we are experiencing is objectively real.
This is necessary in order for us to learn from one another but it leaves many beginners with high hopes and expectations that lead them to believe that they are not successful.
Just as Thomas Edison learned a thousand ways on how not to make a light bulb before he finally succeeded, so do you learn each time that you are not successful if you choose to see it that way.
QuoteI just seem to be relaxed and in a state of nothingness.
QuoteWhen I use to word nothingness I mean I'm not sleeping, not dreaming, not fully awake, not feeling any sensations.. nothing. I just lay there.
These two phrases have very different meanings and so I misunderstood what you were saying.
I'm glad that you read through some of the stickies. They are there for a reason.
Just don't give up. Take a break from it if you feel that you are getting too frustrated. You'd be surprised at how many people have their first OOBE when they take a break and have no expectations at all.
Thank you for the reply.
I think you're right in that I have been expecting too much too soon. I shouldn't look at each night as a failure. I should see it as me gradually getting closer and learning from my mistakes. So maybe I need to enjoy the experience and have a state of mind where I'm not too bothered if I can project that night or not. I'll keep trying.
I read through Robert Peterson's book again just now and he emphasized how you need to be a quiet, passive observer and if you see something just think "Oh, that's nice." When I see the hypnagogic imagery I get sucked into it every time and become interested. I'll try not to do that. The next time I lie down I'm going to stare into the blackness. Peterson says to pretend to look for something that might appear in front of you
I agree with what's been said.
I think your primary mistake is trying to AP in the afternoon or at bedtime. I made the same mistake for years and got nowhere. In the afternoon, your mind is still too active to find that delicate release point; your body may be too awake as well. Later in the evening, your body is too tired and drags your mind off into sleep with it no matter what you try. Finding the balance and the release point is tricky the first few times until you stumble into a few successful exits and your mind learns what to look for; then it starts to get a little easier getting to that point during other times of the day.
For me, I stumbled into the Wake-Back To Bed method quite by accident. I had slept fitfully for about 3 hours one night and was uncomfortable due to some kind of heartburn. I got up around 2am and wandered about the house for 20 minutes or so, trying to shake off the discomfort and figure out a way to sleep comfortably. I finally propped myself up into a near sitting position with some pillows and had some relief. As I sank back toward sleep, I experienced a train of hypnagogic images and then clicked out. I found myself conscious within a lucid dream and willed myself back to the physical from which I made a conscious RTZ/etheric exit into my bedroom. I wandered my room for a minute and was then pulled back inside my physical. In my physical, I realized that I was extremely lucid and I was concerned about waking myself or losing my focus. I was mentally whispering to myself, tip-toeing around in my head, as it were, and nothing happened. I could hear snoring, soft and gentle; I finally realized it had to be me! I mentally laughed and realized it might take quite an effort to wake myself up! I was finally there! Mind Awake/Body Asleep! They weren't kidding! It was that literal!
I understood that all those years ago, all those 2-3 hour attempts....I was nowhere even close. Maybe there had been a need for it, maybe a purpose. Maybe things were happening at a subliminal, subconscious level, working out issues, giving myself permission, overcoming fear; I don't doubt some of that went on.
But here I was, in a MABA state and having all sorts of experiences I'd read about- I saw what I think was the 3D Blackness, then another train of hypnagogic images started up and I was easily able to passively focus on them, there was no tug from the physical. The images literally started as simple, old black and white photos, some even framed as daguerreotypes; then the photos appeared faster and faster and blurred into a video stream, bursting into color at one point and becoming increasingly vivid with scenes shifting rapidly. Then the shifting slowed and the scenery stabilized and it occurred to me that I could mentally step into one of the scenes. The first time I tried, I immediately got bounced back, so I waited and allowed the next scene to stabilize a while longer before stepping into what was probably another lucid dream. I lost focus and found myself back in the physical and having vibrations which I was long familiar with; I easily lifted out and went RTZ for a few minutes before being pulled back.
There was more to it, a lot of lessons all at once, including using a rundown and some other phasing experiences.
So give WBTB a try. You'll have to experiment with timing, it's rather hit and miss. Try going to bed at your normal time, but set the alarm for 3 to 4 hours later. When you wake up, stay up for 20 to 45 minutes (experiment) but don't do anything too physical. The key here is to keep your mind mostly alert and your partly-rested body will still want some more sleep. Then go back to bed, sit in a recliner or prop yourself up like I did and try and observe yourself as your body slides back off into sleep.
Hope that helps.
EV
EV gives great advice. Every time someone that has studied the methods complains of not being able to get anywhere, I think to myself, "I bet their trying at the wrong time." When I AP at the right time it's easy for me. It only takes a few minutes, sometimes even seconds. When I AP at the wrong time absolutely nothing happens no matter how hard I try. I'm not saying you should be as fast at it as me, but my point is that if I'm that good at it at the right time and that bad at it at the wrong time, timing has to be pretty important. I'm sure there are people out there who can project whenever they want but that's not something you'll want to tackle as a beginner. Just follow EV's directions for timing. It's perfect advice IMO.