The Astral Pulse

Hi aphie,

Welcome to the forum

Its no ones job to try and convince you. You seem to be very sure of your thoughts on the matter. What is your background in obe's,  etc?

Have you had experiences that proved to you that obe's were brain processes and nothing more or less? What exactly do you mean by brain process?

Oliver

I'm sorry, but from your post it is blatent that you have no idea what a "soul" is. Your soul is not some kind of abstract mystical concept, it is simply You. Meaning, your collective sense of conscious awareness. The very fact that you have the sense of consciousness to post to this group *is* proof you have a soul.

Yes, obe's are interesting experiences. If you follow them through and learn to tread the correct path on the Astral, then the full truth behind our Human existence will be revealed to you. Then you will no-longer be confused.

The reason why people create these demons and so forth is because what we call "thought" is in fact a primary energy. We don't notice it so much on the Physical plane because our physical body acts as a very effective buffer. But, on the Astral, thought-fuelled emotion instantly creates your surroundings. Unfortunately, for one reason or another, many people don't seem to realise this.

Yours,
Frank

Hi Jason,

I too am new to this forum, and struggle to wrap my head around a lot of the topics raised here. I've a very scientific and analytical mind, with a solid background in physics, engineering & some biology, esp. anatomy.  I have an understanding of most of what's been talked about here, but a lot of the people here have seen and done thiings that I'm just not experienced enough to comment on. Doesn't mean I think its fantasy though. I too have had experiences that are just too bizzare to be explained by conventional logic, and yet too real to ingore.

Regarding OBEs, quite possible it is just a brain function. But many studied psychic phenomena fall into that category. Thing is there isn't anyone yet who knows enough about the mind/brain to solidly prove or disprove any of  it.

Oliver's right about not being here to convince you. Nobody's done that to me and I'm greatful for it. Its good to have opinions from people who don't want to take everything at face value. We can all learn better by having a balanced set of views. Keep an open mind though. I can tell you, in recent times my ideas on life, the universe & everything have taken a bit of a bruising. You'll find that a lot of the members of this forum have a pretty solid grasp on the real world, as well as being open to what's beyond that.

Just remember - reality is a hell of a lot stranger than most people think.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are
dreamt of in your philosophy." -William Shakespeare

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

Hi Jason.

IMO, most people equate OBEs with the paranormal because that's exactly what it feels like.  It feels like the "soul" is actually getting up, out, and leaving the body behind.  That's what the mind portrays.  It's not such a far leap for people to believe what their minds portray.  Yet obviously, this is more subjective than objective.  

But in taking a look at a variety of my experiences objectively, I have come across no evidence that would lead me to believe that I am actually leaving the body.  If anything, I've found the opposite.  

But that doesn't stop me from thoroughly enjoying the experience, or from talking with others whose experiences may be different than my own.  I try to remain open minded and hope that I will learn something new or different along the way.

Thank you all for sharing your views.

My interpretation of the subjective effects of OBEs is that it is a very interesting state of consciousness that doesn't really fit into a dream state or a waking state, but rather a combination or crossroads between the two states.

My OBE's always consist of an area of "black void" from which I can move around (without physically moving around) or enter into a state of lucid dreaming.  The lucid dreaming stage is so incredibly vivid that it puts reality to shame.  In fact, many times this state will not last very long because I get very excited, causing the experience to retract itself.

I can induce this OBE crossroads area almost at will.  If I go to bed at night, sleep for a few hours and then get up to do some writing for school, then I will most likely have them when I go and lie back down.

In fact, I *wanted* to have one early this morning and I was able to.  This time, it was very strange because I felt like I was floating around and slowly bouncing off the ground, as if I was in a very light-gravity environment.  When I open my eyes in this state, I generally see both what is there and what is not.  I usually face my alarm clock and, when in this state, I can read the time, but there is other things around me that I cannot describe.  It is a very strange type of vision.  

During the OBE episode (and I call it OBE because that is the accepted terminology here), the loud ringing stated up in my head.  Once this happens, I get very excited because then I know I'm about to enter into a really "cool" type of consciousness.  I then, with my eyes shut and no vision, had the sensation that I was rolling down a hill like I used to do as a kid.  The rolling was pretty violent but the physical sensations of rolling were very real, unlike regular run-of-the-mill dreams.

I then remember the sensation that I was holding onto a rope that was suspended from a tall ceiling.  I was in a different room than my bedroom and there was a large church window with a very warm blue light behind it.  I remember trying to swing myself so I could bust through the window, but was unable to do so.  

At this point, the OBE subsided and I woke up.  I was a little upset that it didn't last longer.

My belief is that OBE's are just the result of processes within the brain that some people are able to tune into before or after falling asleep.  It is a very difficult balancing act to find that right niche to enter into that state, but once you are there, you know exactly what is going on.  As a kid, I used to be terrified of the experiences, but now I use them to enter lucid-dreaming states to gain insights on problems, practice interacting with dream characters and observing symbolism.  

The lucid-dream state is a wonderful place to get a lot of very original ideas if you are an artist.  I have done a few digital artwork pictures based upon some of the places I have seen while in the lucid-dream state / OBE state.  

However, to say that one has a "soul" independent of the body is a stretch in my opinion.  The brain and the processes within the brain are what make up our thoughts, ideas, emotions and goals.  To suggest that there must be a further element to consciousness is to make the problem more complicated.  

I am a very honest and straightforward person.  I have never had an experience during an OBE session that signifies that I am able to view information at remote locations or actually "travel" anywhere.  I was brought up to have a very critical and observant mind, although I have observed a few things in my life that defied rational and logical explanation.  

1)  When I went to camp one summer as a kid, I woke up one morning crying and didn't know why.  My parents were coming to visit me that day.  When they came to visit me, as soon as I saw them, I just blurted out, "you got rid of our dog!  Why?" and started to cry.  Amazingly, they had to get rid of our dog and there was no possible way I could have ever known.  To this day, I don't know how or why I knew -- but the simple fact was that I did know somehow.

2) I can go into old buildings and generally feel some affinity towards the building, and a lot of times I feel extremely happy and warm inside old buildings -- and I especially often get waves of "emotion" as I go through different rooms.  I have no way of explaining this, but can only speak from my observation that it does happen and I am affected for some reason or another.

There are things in life that I cannot explain, but this does not mean there is no rational explanation for them.

Jason

Hi all,
You should all find this very interesting. Taken from Vincent Haske's book:

In the late 1960s Charles Tart began the first laboratory tests with subjects who could have OBEs voluntarily [Tar67, 68]. In addition to his physiological research he also tested subjects' ability to see a target hidden from their normal sight. His first subject, Miss Z., was tested in a laboratory where a target was placed on a shelf about five and a half feet above the bed where she lay. The target was a five-digit number prepared in advance by Tart and placed on the shelf. Miss Z. slept in the laboratory on four occasions. On the first she had no OBE; on the second, she managed to get high enough to see the clock, and on third night she had an OBE but traveled elsewhere. However, on her fourth and last night she awoke and reported that she had seen the number and it was 25132. She was right on all five digits which has a probability of only one in 100,000 of being right by chance.
Tart himself seemed reluctant to conclude that it was paranormal. Tart's second subject was Robert Monroe, who came to the laboratory for nine sessions, but he was only able to induce an OBE in the penultimate session, and then he had two. During the first of these OBEs he seemed to see a man and a woman but not to know who or where they were. In the second he made a great effort to stay 'local' and managed to see a technician, who was supposed to be monitoring the apparatus. With her he saw a man whom he did not know was there and whom he later described. It turned out that this was the husband of the technician, who had come to keep her company. Since Monroe did not manage to see the target number, no real test of ESP was possible.
In 1971 Karlis Osis began to plan OBE research at the American SPR. One of the first subjects to be tested there was Ingo Swann, who went to the laboratory two or three times a week where Janet Mitchell tested him to see whether he could identify a target placed out of sight. A platform was suspended from the ceiling about 10 feet above the ground and divided into two. On either side of a partition various objects were placed and Swann was asked to try to travel up to see them. The reason for the partition was to see whether Swann would identify the correct target for the position in which he claimed it to be. Bright colors and clear familiar shapes seemed most successful and glossy pictures or glass did not work well for the experimental purposes.
After his OBE, Swann usually made drawings of what he had 'seen.' Although these drawings were far from perfect renderings of the original objects, they were similar enough that when eight sets of targets and respondes were given to an independent judge she correctly matched every pair; a result which is likely to happen by chance only once in about 40,000 times

David

I think that my post should be sufficient enough too prove that OBE's are not pieces of our imagination...

David

Hello Astralmaster!

Allow me to refer you to the following:

http://skepdic.com/dreams.html

Quote:

"Nowadays, hardly anyone believes that dreams are messages from the gods. But some parapsychologists, such as Charles Tart, believe that dreams offer entry into another universe, a paranormal universe of OBEs, cosmic messages, and blissful nirvana. His main evidence for this seems to be his personal faith and an anecdote about his baby sitter. He claims the unnamed baby sitter (he calls her "Miss Z") had the power to leave her body during sleep. He claims he tested his flying babysitter in his sleep lab at UC Davis after she told him that she "thought everyone went to sleep, woke up in the night, floated up near the ceiling for a while, then went back to sleep." Other psychologists might have been concerned for the mental well-being of "Miss Z" and the safety of his or her children. Tart was intrigued. He put a number on a shelf, hooked up "Miss Z" to an EEG machine and put her to bed. She claims that even though she didn't read the number on the shelf, she flew around the room the first few nights. She didn't get the number right until the fourth night. Skeptics think either Tart is making up the story or it took the girl four nights to figure out how to trick the scientist. (See Tart's 'A Psychophysiological Study of Out-of-the-Body Experiences in a Selected Subject,' Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1968, 62, pp. 3-27.) Others have investigated the question of whether the mind is open to telepathic input during sleep and have failed to find evidence of psychic ability while dreaming. Scientific research by psychiatrist Montague Ullman and parapsychologist Charles Honorton in the early 1970s at Maimonides Hospital in Brooklyn, New York, obtained chance results after an initial testing that looked positive for psi (Baker)."

Jason

Problem is, I often come across situations where people are merely scratching the surface, yet are coming to far-reaching conclusions as to the nature of obe's.

People think that learning how to project is the difficult bit. Nope, that's the easy bit. The big difficulty is gaining a proper degree of control over the projection experience at the time. That's the really hard part.

On the Astral, as you think, so it becomes, in glorious 3D Technicolour. As such, one of the hardest and most difficult things to do is to simply remain completely still: both in body (Astral) and in mind.

From this standpoint, you make progress by developing an air of mild curiosity. Deviate from this state of mind just one iota, and you go off on a self-driven tangent. Which is a very difficult situation to get out of. Of course, there are sure to be a small number of people who can achieve the requisite degree of stillness naturally. But it took me over 5-years to do.

People also make distinctions between what are perceived as dreams, lucid dreams, or astral projection. But, basically, each state is an obe state. The only real difference is the person's degree of conscious perception.

Yours,
Frank

Charles Tart's tests were actually disproven because apparently the number could be seen from a reflection somewhere... but that doesnt discount the fact that Monroe saw a person in the corridor adjacent.

Aphexcoil, you have to discover it for yourself. I find it ironic how we will see some scientific breakthrough on the news and immediatley have faith in it whereas we see something otherwordly first-hand but still have doubts. We are programmed to believe in science and not the paranormal. Noone who shows you or proves/explains to you will ever have the influence of self discovery.

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Ashfo,

The simple truth is this.  If OBEs *were* real and things such as ESP *was* actually true, wouldn't the rest of the world know about it as well?  There are over 5 billion people on this planet -- why are these subjects on the fringe of our society?  

Why don't we have sitcoms where Roseanne wakes up and talks about her latest OBE trip?  Why is all of this astral travel talk only found in the niche recesses of the internet?

Even if it was remotely true, many more scientists would devote more time to this field.  Why don't most scientists devote time to this field?  Well, because throughout time, no research as conclusively proved anything "paranormal."  There is simply nothing to back-up the claims that there is a paranormal co-existence to our everday reality.

People who cannot accept that are doing so for personal reasons -- perhaps they need to believe in it for whatever reason.  Hey, if it makes you feel better as a person, I'm all for it.  However, just because there are a few discussion boards on the internet that let people discuss their latest spiritual quest does not make it truth.  

People congagate to these places to reinforce their own beliefs by the beliefs of others -- which in themselves have no foundation in proof.  

Show me one bit of scientific evidence that is well-documented by reputable sources concerning any of this and I will change my views accordingly.  However, up to this point, I have found nothing that even remotely shows that any of this is possible.

You may be curious as to why I am here, then.  Quite simply, at some point I did believe just as you all do.  However, I retracted those beliefs after studying the facts and rationalizing my own experiences.  I am just trying to tell all of you to try and do the same.  Don't get caught up in hype simply to believe in something.  Try to make sense of your experiences and ask yourself, "what is the most logical reason for these experiences."

Thank you for your time!

Jason

Jason, now you are really knocking on the door of your own limitations. :)

I think what you need to accept is that everyone is at a different level of spiritual advancement. And one of the primary functions of this BBS is to simply bring people together so we can try and give each other a hand-up where we can.

What we are involved in here is a new and emerging science. As such, there is no concrete "proof" as yet, that is sufficient to convince people who are naturally very skeptical.

Sorry that your skepticism seems to have got the better of you.

I guess that is understandable given the circumstances. Many people try and fail before they can give themselves the chance to get to understand the true nature of the obe phenomenon. I was at it 20 years before making any real kind of sense of it all.

You said you have experienced buzzing and floating sensations. These begin to occur when you are just beginning to scratch the surface. It seems to me like you gave up just when you were starting to make progress.

Yours,
Frank

Hello again Jason,

There are two very good reasons why scientists don't spend more time researching OBEs and other paranormal events - money and reputation.

There is no money to be made in researching OBEs.

What noted scientist is going to stick his reputation and research grants on the chopping block by running OBE experiments. What if he does find something. He'll be the laughing stock fo his peers and his career will come to a swift end because chances are he won't be able to explain his findings using existing laws of physics. Look in your local library and you should find many case studies into the paranormal that all end up with "no explanation can be given".

You had a link earlier to SkepDic.com. Don't give that lot too much credence either. I read an article of theirs on disproving aural vision that was so ridiculously biased against it, they made bold statements based on "scientific fact" that was very poorly researched. They openly stated -

"no one has ever detected an aura or the alleged energy that gives rise to an aura using scientific equipment. Human tissue is about a million times less sensitive than something like a PET scanner, yet we are supposed to believe that some special people can "see" what cannot otherwise be detected.".

What total and utter uninformed CRAP!
Positron Emission Topography looks at cellular density and derives images accordingly, as do MRI scans. If you want to look at auras, which are basically the bodie's bioelectric field, you use biomagnetic imaging equipment such as biomagnetometers, or SQUIDs (Superconductive QUantum Imaging Device).

Unfortunately you've made a similar type of statement -
"Why don't most scientists devote time to this field? Well, because throughout time, no research as conclusively proved anything "paranormal." There is simply nothing to back-up the claims that there is a paranormal co-existence to our everday reality."

Our old spoon-bending friend Uri Geller had mettalurgical analases done by one french team using a scanning electron microscope to test the spoons he was bending, both before and after. Before - normal steel as expected. After, the area of the bend had hardened similar to metal subjected to intense external pressure, far more than any human could apply. Other tests showed the metal around the bend had turned to a consistency similar to chewing gum. (Reference - Mind and Matter, the real science behind science fiction, author - Michael White)

It's not safe to make such absolute statements like this - it shows a closed mind.

Don't let a faith in science stop you from believing that there is more to this world than what science can prove. After all, a few hundred years ago the earth WAS flat, and WAS the centre of the universe. It was the simple truth, and the few people on "the fringe" who believed otherwise were mocked and persecuted.

Most people in the world aren't really interested in anything outside of what the world that they know and are told about by the precious few on this planet who actually control the media. If I went up to somebody on the street and told them that there is another universe that exist in parallel to our own, they'd think I'm delusional. But in 1957 physicist Hugh Everett, using light patterns, found solid, irrefutable evidence that there exists at least one other parallel universe that affects our own on an atomic level. Most scientists still do not believe this, but none can actually disprove his theory or refute his evidence. Quantum physics is doing more towards explaining the unexplainable every day. Look up "Hugh Everett" if you want. there's plenty of info on him and even more freaky quantum mechanics theories.

You have had experiences you can't explain,and you seem to have an innate talent with lucid dreaming that most could only ever hope for. So what if you can't explain it logically or rationally. Doctors today still can't explain even half of how the brain works.

As for "the most logical reason" for things, that sounds a lot like Ockham's Razor - "The simplest explaination is often the correct one". Well that certainly didn't apply to Hugh Everett's findings, nor has it applied to many other startling scientific discoveries.

Sorry if I rambled a bit there. The point I'm trying to make is that there is more to this world than what we know. Science doesn't have all the answers. Logic cannot always be applied. Laws of phisics are being rewritten and new laws being discovered all the time. Trust yourself more and believe that if something inexplicable happened to you, it really happened. History has proved time and again that popular opinion, and scientific views are not always correct. A good example - our video recorders should be using Beta not VHS, it was proven to be the superior format, but unfortunately not the popular one.

There are a lot more people in this world who believe in the supernatural than you think. Sit down and have a quiet one on one chat with a friend and you'll probably find that something unusual has happened to them as well. Most people just won't talk aout it for fear of being mocked. As you say "try to make sense of your experience". But also, don't get caught up in public pressure to disbelieve something just because it isn't the mainstream view.


James S
(Fate amenable to change)

QuoteOriginally posted by aphexcoil:
Ashfo,


Show me one bit of scientific evidence that is well-documented by reputable sources concerning any of this and I will change my views accordingly.  However, up to this point, I have found nothing that even remotely shows that any of this is possible.


Hello Ashfo.... here's one for you:

http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html

BD

Logic, science, and the evidence of my senses caused me to doubt religion and finally to abandon it long ago. Anything without a logical reason and purpose had no room in my mind. I told a nun that there is no god and no soul. When she asked, then, what happens after death I told her that people die and their bodies are disposed of. As for the dead person, I explained that there is only the same nothingness which preceded birth. Nothing but a perfect, complete lack of experience. The nun thought that this was a terrible way to believe, but I told her that it was my most comfortable thought that some day I would be gone so totally that literally no experience would remain. That just made things worse for the nun. Roman Catholic, if you are wondering.

Now I accept the possibility of astral projection even though I am still trying to do it. As to whether it is objective or subjective or proof of survival, does it matter? If it proves survival after death that is good. If it does not prove survival after death it still does not disprove survival. It is still worth learning astral projection when nothing is proven because astral projection can be a lot of fun. Without personal experience it is all opinion anyway.

Hello aphexcoil...

I feel that there is such a preponderance of evidence (prima facie), that the burden is now on science to disprove the phenomena.  And if you keep on exploring your buzzing and vibrations, you too may find the "proof" you are looking for.

Read them all and you may start to doubt your disbelief once more...
http://www.near-death.com/index.html

The problem is that the physical world contains the physical world. The astral contains both the astral and the physical. If you are in the astral you can reach the astral or the physical, but if you are in the physical you are stuck there and can reach only the physical. The mental can go down to the astral and the physical because it contains both. As humans, we are on the physical and astral and mental. We extend even higher than that and so we can go higher than that by shifting awareness there. What happens when we try to prove higher levels by purely physical means we get stuck. It would be better to try to prove the physical level from the astral or the mental because we would be outside it and have tools to hold on to it with. We cannot use purely physical means and a purely physical perspective to manipulate the nonphysical. To gain proof of higher levels we must start from higher levels still.

I've beleived life after death for a good part of my life.

Watch John Edward on Crossing Over... great show!  It is on all day on your cable channel: Sci-Fi.  I don't know why they would play this show on a "Science-Fiction" channel, but this is anything but fiction.  Watch one episode if you haven't yet.

K2sixx, are you really telling us that you believe in life after death because you saw it on tv? And further, that we can go the same route?

Hey... I can't verify life after death yet man... I haven't died.  But dont make it look like I am gullible by saying "Cuz you saw it on TV?"  Have you seen the show bro?  What do you make of it?  He is no Jerry Springer.

I haven't even achieved a conscious OOBE yet, so I can only believe through what I've read and what I've seen.  That is all you can do.  What more does it take?  Tell me if you have a problem with any of this.

Theoretically, all of us have died many times. Remembering previous lives is unusual and so is remembering being born. It is easier to prove having been born. Proving something, regardless of what it is, is a matter of taking something which you have discovered or learned for yourself and bringing it to other people in such a way that they can choose to gain the knowledge directly or just choose to accept the conclusions. Whether we have lived before or not it is possible to make both arguments. It does not matter because arguments are about interacting with other people. When the moment of death comes, we must all be ready for it by ourselves and prepared for anything which will follow. This is far beyond proofs and arguments.

K2sixx, I know already that you are not gullible. I have read your other posts. Not all of them, most likely. It just seemed surprising to hear you refer to a tv show. As for the specific show, I have only seen it mocked on other tv shows. Even if it is completely real and in no way a scam, it does not prove anything to me. How can you possibly hope to prove anything to someone who does not quite trust his own senses and experiences?

I'm not sure how you could prove it, but you could experience it.  He explains how he does this, and essentially what he does is connect with loved ones who have died.  It is not mere coincidence that he can explain all these personal issues to these people that they involve.  But the show is as good as any book you or I could ever read about the subject... But I dont really know where I'm going with this.  I feel like I'm sticking up for a TV... blah

....just want to add that this man changed my outlook on the subject moreso than the readings of Buhlman, Monroe, and other writers had about the subject of the spirit carrying on.

Hey K2,

I gotta say I don't think JE is really legit. Here's a link about how he 'does it' from someone who saw him in person (ie not an edited TV show where you only see what makes him look good, and by the way the show says "For entertainment only"):

http://www.iands.org/msgboards/messages/2/724.html?931691793

BUT PLEASE don't feel offended. Stick around and keep in mind if Tom can tell a nun that her body is going to remember nothing and she is destined for oblivion, well obviously he speaks his mind, which is a good thing.

Tom, the poor kid is only like 16.

Patty

p.s. - I was afraid this thread would turn into a lot of nasty name calling and bad feelings. I almost didn't open it - but I am glad I did - I am impressed with the calm way everyone is sharing their opinion.

Jason! Cool that you can LD at will.

Patty

It is a proven fact that intelligence decreases with more schooling. The Ph.D.s and M.D.s around me continue to illustrate this point. Someone told me jokingly that the letters of Ph.D. stand for "pretty heavily damaged". Some day I will be as intelligent as I was at age 8.

My beliefs have changed since talking with that nun long ago. If anything, my mouth gets me in more trouble than ever before. Back then I would have taken the evidence of my own senses as proof. Now I know that perceptions are easily distorted. Even when they seem stable, consistent, and easily repeatable they don't have to be correct. Faith is difficult. The idea of a God goes completely outside the limits of my imagination in ways that few things can. All I meant earlier was that with so much doubt, the idea of being advised to learn about the universe by watching tv seemed shocking. This would be the same tv on which I have seen so many movies and other fictions?

Hey Tom, I like this analysis that I heard:

BS = bovine excrement
MS = More of the Same
PhD = Piled higher and Deeper

I also like the idea that as you get more and more education, you keep learning more and more about less and less until you reach the point of knowing everything about nothing.

Tom - I like your ... shall I call it agnosticism? My favorite bumper sticker is "Militant Agnostic: I don't know and neither do you!"

Jason - speaking of education - if you're 25 and still in school, would that be graduate school? Please elaborate! I have an advanced degree myself, though I don't currently use it.

Patty

Ok, shorter one this time (for a change),

Something my wife said to me this morning as we were discussing this topic on the way to work (and it blew a hole in a previous statement of mine)-

Actively disproving something can be as productive as actively proving it, providing the person doing so isn't doing it with a one track mind. They need to be open to possibilities.

Examples :
If the people of SkepDic.com in investigating auras had considered that a PET device was not a suitable tool for viewing auras, they might have looked at what instrument is, and revised their "absolute" statement.

The Challenger disaster mightn't have happened years ago if NASA engineers weren't so sure that everything would work as it was supposed to. If someone had questioned the "infallable" components that failed beforehand they might have found the fault before it was too late.
(NB. theres a term used in research for this "unquestioning" approach, but I can't think what it is)

Also, to expand one of Tom's points -
"Proving something, regardless of what it is, is a matter of taking something which you have discovered or learned for yourself and bringing it to other people..."

How could you prove the existence of electricity if the Voltmeter had not yet been developed. You could see it's effects, but you couldn't measure it. Can't measure electricity with a hammer(well, you could try, but you'd probably be killed in the process)! By todays standards, "science" demands things be measured as proof, but we haven't yet developed the tools neeeded to "measure" OBEs and other psychic talents.

Hang on, just a thought...isn't paranormal research, or parapsychology now an accepted branch of science?

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

James S: I don't have a voltmeter, but if you will kindly stick out your tongue I will place both terminals of a 9V battery on it. Then we can discuss if electricity is real. What I meant is that it is one thing to know something and another to communicate the knowledge to someone else. How it is done was not the point. I mean that there is knowing something, which is satisfactory to me, and then a burden of having to prove it to other people by some means. It is good enough for me just to have experiences even if they aren't real or objective or things I can prove to other people. If anyone is wondering, I am not a mean person.

Hey.  What do you mean by being "advised to learn about the universe"?  I simply stated that this man's show is very interesting.  I haven't seen any sufficient data to disprove Edward's ability, and through all the books I've read, I don't see this ability to defy all logic.  I have always had ideas about who we are (or who I am for that matter)... and some are not completely normal thoughts, and certainly not logical by scientific standards.  So, what I'm getting at is that I have a very open mind when it comes to spiritual discussion.  I learn many things from watching the Discovery and History channels about this world, so why should I ignore this, yes, TV SHOW, and disregard it, considering it foolish to believe.

Much better wording, to say that there are reasons for finding value in the show than that it is on tv. Sai Baba has people saying his ability is stage trickery and he appears live in person. Osho has been accused of being a fraud, too. Maybe this guy who talks with dead people is for real. Just hearing it said that he isn't won't convince me.

G,day all

Hey you new guys didn't have a guy called Atlas on your board did you? Sounds like a rehashed version of his arguements we had back in "$1 million  reward for proof of OBE's".

Many of us here have science based backgrounds, if not studying science at present & are naturally skeptical ourselves, but there is a difference between being rational & logical & having an open mind. Many of my fellow students & lectures consider themselves open minded, but really, it's just being open minded within the scope of what they know, anything else doesn't exist for the present unless it's proved.

Just the fact that you guys didn't just stick to one source of information e.g science & skeptics forums, shows you think there must be more to the story than what you have discovered so far, otherwise you wouldn't need to come to forums where they nearly exclusively believe in OBE's & the paranormal & tell them they are wrong or because you personally have not experienced it, therefore it must be wrong or doesn't happen the way that others believe it to be.

I'm sure you wouldn't burst into a science forum or walk into a university & say that because they havn't discovered black holes or teleportation because you havn't experienced it, or read about it in a way that made sense to you, it doesn't exist.

The events at SRI & Fort Meade etc, were funded by the department of defence for the specific purpose of counter- intelligence, the Russians allready had it, spys had confirmed & so the military pumped millions into it. I'm sure if Ingo Swann & Hal Pulthoff told the top brass that what they were training people for, what pretty much amounted to an ancient art called Clairvoyancy as opposed to a more military sounding Remote viewing, it would have lost funding in a second.

There is enough evidence that when the r.v program ceased to be, the government conducted & continues to conduct research in private & secret. We all have the benefit of hindsight to scan the "de-classified" info released by the U.S, but why not all of it, if it was such a failure?

Most people back in the 40's & 50's didn't know the government was secretly racing the Russians to build bigger & longer range rockets after they discovered the Germans success at it. Even to the scientists involved, it was an exercise that seemed impossible, let alone putting a man into them, which was simply deemed impossible until they learned the Russians were doing it. Many mistakes need to be made first, so people can gain experience & learn from their mistakes.

If there was so little for people to believe in or to dissmiss so readily by scientific & military types, why then did the majority of them go through TMI? If R.V has nothing to do with OBE's why go to an institute that teaches OBE's?

"The longest run" concept is used in a link from a previous post on SRI's scientific data & an alalogy is drawn between the results of testing positive on R.V tests & home run rates from a baseball team! The logic used in that analogy defies logic by drawing a comparison between strike rates in the physical world compared to a non physical world, why not be fair & display the positive results from quantam physics exercises in comparison to R.V, I think we all know how many positive results will be found out of the millions of tests performed.

As everything in our physical world is dependant & reliant on money, it's not likely that the ones who DO have the positive results are going to rush out & give it to people for free, without working out someway of securing a monopoly on it or at least a patent, imagine the U.S scientists 50 years ago wanting to go around to skeptics or those interested to show them exactly how it works & that it does work, I think not.

Saying I can show you how electricity works if you put your tongue on a 9v battery is using the benefit of hindsight a little isn't it? Like Frank said, this is an emerging science, so with anything new & nothing to hold up like a battery for proof, there will always be those who think the battery came first & not the invention of electricity, which I'm sure you don't, but to cite a present product of a past invention is a bit late.

I love science & I'm quite skeptical too, that's why I'm studying science, but the people teaching & studying it are just as dogmatic & one eyed as religous teachers & students, plus have a system they have to conform to, so as to gain respect & credibility off their peers, who don't want their beliefs pulled apart, but still somehow call themselves openminded people.

I was going to post some links to add to my view, but have learnt that lesson before, as the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink", people choose to believe & see what they want to see.

Try & keep positive guys & truly open minded & good journeys.

Mobius

Aphexcoil,

Perhaps you would enjoy alchemy? You could say it is the physical application of the paranomral :). This is how I would only imagine that a 'soul' can be proven. I believe the alchemists call it the 'quintessence'. Check out this wonder website: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/

It also has lessons of interpreting the symbolism, which I think you said you liked.



Brandon

What I said about the battery was that it was evidence of electricity for those of us without voltmeters. Then there is the fact that I really am mean enough to stick one on someone's tongue just to get a reaction. As to how it works, that is entirely something else.

Patty,

No, not graduate school yet.  I took a break after high-school because I wanted to party some and travel.  I'm glad I waited because I'm taking school much more seriously than I would have when I was 18.  I have a 4.0 GPA going for me right now because of a lot of hard work.  

I am an economics major and plan to pursue it all the way up to the doctoral level.  I love numbers, statistics, economics, business, etc.  

My intention when I started this topic wasn't to cause any fights, but to see where other people come from and how they validate their thought processes.  

Someone posted a link to a site that had some interesting information about PSI.  It is rather lengthy, so it will take some time to read it all.

And yes, I'd say I can OBE about 75% of the time when I try.  Although I can get there, it is very hard to stay there.  It is definately a rather "weird" state of consciousness.

Why is the spell checker broken on this board, btw?

:)

Jason

No Tom, I don't think you're mean at all. Just remind me if we ever meet not to go poking my tongue out around you

Sorry I misinterperted your point. My thoughts were that you can't prove something if the only standards or known physical laws we have available to us cannot be used as a basis for comparison. Your thoughts were that it doesn't matter if they are proven or not. The experiences we have are real to us. Wether or not someone else chooses to believe what we experienced was real, makes it no less real.

I guess many of us in this forum have at one stage become skeptical of the unexplained things that have happened to us. It took me just over twenty years just to risk talking to someone else about the one major event that opened my eyes to the world beyond what we see and touch.

btw, Jason is right, the spell checker dosnt work. and me with this dislexic keyboard!

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

I don't think you're mean, either Tom, and I didn't think there was particular fighting ... You seem very considerate, and you explain yourself well. I'm sorry for giving you a hard time! I had the image of that nun in my mind...... Going pale from your stated lack of faith, and I guess I assume you are pretty tough skinned! But now I feel like you wish you hadn't joined in.  :(

I have enjoyed all the tidbits from everybody. I really do think that speaking one's mind is a good thing

The only person who seems at all skeptical in the current cynical sense of the word is Jason but what a relief to hear skepticism from someone who experiences that which he is skeptical of. The 'skeptics' (actually a misuse of the word in my opinion) who have not experienced these things and yet are still convinced that they are all hogwash can be most unpleasant.

Patty

It is fortunate that I can read the experiences of other people here. After having tried to learn to leave my body since 1988 it can be hard to keep trying at times. Usually the difficulty arises when I am trying to do it. It isn't the same as proof to watch someone do something and then to follow, but following seems more important right now. Until OBE becomes more common and better understood, I think that we need to pass the information around so more people (like me) can gain the experience directly. Then we can worry about how objective or subjective it is and if there is proof. So how can more people like me who struggle succeed?

All of my OBEs (I haven't had too many I'll admit)  have been quite like a dream. For example, I will fly out of my bedroom window and there will be buildings etc which I know for a fact don't exist. At first this made me question whether OBEs are real or not. The way which I remember them too seems rather like a dream. In fact, I can remember some dreams better than I can remember some OBEs. I'm not too sure about whether OBEs are real or not, I'd say there's good evidence for and good evidence against.

Here's one thing that gets me though, if they're not real -- that is to say it isn't the spirit leaving the body -- than why do we feel as though we're leaving the body and why also can we see our physical lying or sitting where ever we happen to be. If it's just a mere consequence of particular conscious state of mind, it seems a very odd one. I'm not saying that they're real, but I'm not saying that they're false either

aphexcoil - you're an econ major, that explains it all!  JK!  I agree with what others have said, keep an open mind and pursue the OBE phenomena and I think eventually you will discover there's a lot more to "reality" than you presently accept.

fides quaerens intellectum

ah yikes,

I got into this on another board just the other day, discussing spirituality. one thing I mentioned there is that I don't necessarily see a way or a cause to be able to communicate with someone on an opposite polarity.

I don't mean that is my stance by choice, I mean that might just be the way the universe is. You can't turn an intuitive into a rationalist overnight, or vice versa. And I don't believe you have to anyway.

See, it's funny, your comments about the brain answer being the simplest and most straightforward, are exactly what I said about the soul the other day! And that's true to me. Do you suppose other people to be less sincere then you when they speak of their beliefs?

but we are coming from two very different places, and the best thing to do is accept and respect each other. No one's point of view is a lie to theirself so why must people always try to undermine each other? It's obviously because we want external confirmation and reinforcement of our own beliefs, but so friggin what? all that is is draggin each other into the mud and trying to prove  dominion over another person by force.

Perhaps one of the most interesting things the universe is trying to teach us that nearly none of us grasps, is to stop looking for a single answer. that's all we do, isn't it? like aphex we go through phases of belief, of single-mindedness. we look for a single 'god', no matter if we dress it as atheism or religion, to place our confidence in.

let's think of the qualities a person looking for a single 'god' has: selfishness, self-centeredness, intolerance, narrow views, ridgidness. thinking of that, it strikes me that this belief game isn't so smart, and that maybe we've got to do the remarkable and stop playing before we really can learn anything.

OK, now I've finally decided to jump in . . . new age crap?  Do my OBE experiences dump me into New Age crapdom?  EGAD!  Do I have to start wearing purple and silver now, engaging in fluffy-bunny feel-good pseudo-spiritual practices, telling people to go-to-the-white-light and such?  ACK!  Kill me now!  Ha ha ha . . .

Three pages of posts and I've seen hardly one reference to anything truly "New Age."  OBE experiences are oooollllld, as old as the hills.  Ditto psychic phenomena.  Nothing "new" about it.  The shamans of old considered it rote.  

Writing about  EXPERIENCES is way different from writing about "beliefs."  But I'll write about both now.  Here is something I brought "home" from my last 2 OBEs:

We carry within ourselves an image of the entire universe.  Not really a mirror . . . more like a holograph.  Anyway, now that I feel this point to be true, whether or not I literally "leave" my body during an OBE is  IRRELEVANT!  This "lesson" ended the real/unreal or biological/spiritual argument within me.  Even by staying "in" my body, I can still go everywhere in the universe.  Wild!

Part ofspiritual development is accepting ambiguity, and transcending either/or and right/wrong dualities.  If this is your path, you might as well get used to it!

Blessings to all,
tisha

Hey Tisha, don't knock the purple & silver, you might look good in it

"New-Age" has to be one of the most misused phrases of the last couple of decades. Though, maybey if you think that we are currently in a technological age, it kind of works - it's different, even if not new.

This is so cool reading others OBE experiences. Not only have I been skeptical in the past, I've been downright anti. But there's really got to be something in it. Tisha's comments are like so many others - it must be great.

Keep at it Tom. I think with forums like this, and guides by people like Robert, there is so much more info available to those who want to learn. Maybey it's just a case of finding a method that is particularly suited to you. I've really had a lot of doubts dispelled and am eager to be able to list any OBE experiences I might have on these pages.

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

Hey Tisha!

You rock girl. Congrats on the four projections/one night - MAN.

I loved your comments re: ambiguity --- somewhere in the last few years I finally accepted 'not knowing' as my fate in life, and it is funny - I am both drawn to people of strong conviction (and wish I had some too) and at the same time can't think of a single conviction worth being certain of.

Well, maybe that we all exist, that we're all in this together. Buddhist convictions, if that's not an oxymoron, tend to resonate with me.

I love your insight re the universe. I'm not there by any stretch, but I love hearing when a person has a piece fall into place.  The amazing insight I had the other night - really a step for me - was a recognition of my own personal strength. (Heh, just this minute realized that I had been listening to tibetan chants surrounding the three great pillars of the spiritual life - one of which is inner strength. Maybe those chants really did something!)   It feels like a rock I can lean on. A very neat feeling.

See ya -

James - glad to hear that open minded skepticism exists!

Talk to y'all later -

Patty

Hi all

I guess most serious readers of metaphysical concepts & OBE's etc. feel the cringe factor every time the words "New Age" are mentioned, so many OBE type sites refrain from using it, as for most of us it conjures up images of wide eyed space cadets, walking around in some pseudo- religous type dress, banging on bongo drums in a circle & generally looking like they would be more comfortable in a nut house.

I personally refrained from going to a site called " newage.com" that I was referred to, simply because of the image I had created in my mind of what I believed "new age " encompassed. After finally checking it out I found things of interest galore, especially OBE's, so the lesson was learnt, me ignorant of the whole picture, simply because of the name associated with it, talk about judge a book by it's cover, I was disgusted & dissapointed with myself.

Tom, I'm sorry if it came across as though I was having a go at you, that was not my intention, also instead of getting the battery out, get hold of a piezo ignitor & demonstrate the natural version of electricity, unfortunately when I was a plumber, everyone had one & seemed to find great delight in demonstrating the power of 2 crystals smashing against each other, especially if you werent ready for it, hehe.

Good journeys all

Mobius

travrai blue robes: "let's think of the qualities a person looking for a single 'god' has: selfishness, self-centeredness, intolerance, narrow views, ridgidness. thinking of that, it strikes me that this belief game isn't so smart, and that maybe we've got to do the remarkable and stop playing before we really can learn anything."

hey. i believe in one God but i am not selfish (i have gone into debt at times from giving too much money away, and i help others out way more than is probably healthy), i am at times self-centered but it comes and goes in phases (besides i see being self-centered at times as natural since you can't ALWAYS center your life around everyone and everything else), i am only intolerant of stupidity and evil  :p  , i certainly don't have narrow views although i am not idiotically naive either, and i am about as rigid as molases (rather than air since i already told you i'm not naive).

as to stopping believing before you can "learn anything": even believing in the supernatural is a belief isn't it? what you should do is use logic AND wisdom to figure out what you should believe and what you shouldn't. and flexibility enough that when your beliefs are proven flat out wrong, or even slightly incorrect, it is time for a change.

as for this "new age" stuff: if a belief in something has lasted for thousands of years and through rigerous and complete opposition, then don't you think that lends some credence to the possibility that it is real?

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

Haha Mobius I have returned!! :)

No, I was not out poisoning their minds elsewhere before they came here :)

Aphexcoil....I agree with you

I haven't had an OBE but "extreme vividness" is not proof that one has actually left his/her body.

To me, the defining characteristic of an OBE where you actually are LEAVING your body, HAS to be the ability to receive previously unknown real-world information through the OBE. There isn't any other way to KNOW that everything else isn't just going on inside your mind. My dreams feel EXTREMELY real, when I'm having them, but then I wake up and realize they were just that...a dream.

I put up a challenge here for anyone to come and have something like 50 chances, I don't remember exactly,  to get a 5 digit number right, and I only had one semi-taker, and that was Frank.

To me, another very damning thing is that despite the talk of governments using it, it obviously is not very successful. If someone could do this, Osama would be dead right now, as we discussed in a previous thread.

As Mobius said, we kind of had a thread about this already, it was called Reward for Osama/1 million or something like that. You might want to check it out

Cya guys

Atlas

Firstly, BD, I think you misinterpreted me.. I was quoting someone else... I strongly believe in the paranormal/spiritual etc.

There is a way of recognizing something as "true" in the scientific world without having the same results appear in a test with all the variables constant. It's called the"scientific, systematic observation of a phenomenon". For example, we accept that lightning and thunder are natural occurences. But we cannot duplicate them in a controlled environment. Using this approach is the only way to prove - or disprove - many phenomena. All your talk about "measuring" things to attain if they are real or not displays your ingrained belief in traditional science.

Your argument that hardly anyone knows of it or is studying it except a few of us doesn't stack up either. How many people knew of anything - take any well known scientific idea thesedays - before someone,  or someones - "proved" it to them? All discoveries are made by individuals or small groups. Take Reverse Speech, have you ever heard of it? I doubt it. Why not? Because even though David Oates has been reccomended for a Nobel Prize and the US military contracted him for a short while, the science of RS is not scientifically accepted.

History shows all of this to be true. You have to know whats behind you to know what to expect.

- Ashfo

Oh, whoever made comments about Osama and why he isnt caught yet with RV etc - perhaps you should consider this: Maybe the US government doesn't want him caught? While he's out there he is a licence for them to attack virtually anywhere for the "war on terrorism".

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hey hey Atlas!

I knew you were around somehow & that this topic might have just been the one to get a post out of you again & if you saw your name & the things we were talking about you might be feeling a little de-ja-vu ( I need the spell check) like I was.

That was a hot topic back then & things havn't changed much now have they? I wonder if we will get this one up over a thousand times read as well?

There was heaps of links & good points put in from both sides, but I feel Osama is going to beat New age, I hope not as there is a lot to talk about.

Good to see you around again Atlas, you got some free time now that everyones bailing out of the U.S market,hehe.

Good journeys

Mobius

It is clear to me that I am doing something wrong. Maybe the right thread will come along, someone will tell me what that is, and after changing it I will have conscious astral projections for the rest of my life. Actually, there is a lot of room for improvement more generally.

The reason why I chose 9V batteries is that they are available very inexpensively where I work. The only way to get cheaper would be to get very good nimh batteries and reuse them until they can't take a charge anymore.

Hi Atlas!

I haven't seen anyone here say that AP is real 'due to it's extreme vividness.'  Maybe you saw that on another site?

I HAVE seen lots of people intuitively recognize the experience as distinct from other types of consciousness. Those same people often ask what the heck was THAT? in response to some part of the experience.

I think we all recognize that it would be hard to identify a five digit number. What is your point here?

But this does not indicate one way or the other whether these experiences represent anything 'real.'  It is entirely possible that there is multiple input going on in the brain during this experience - some of it may be 'dream' input and some of it may be 'physical world'  input and I'm trying to oversimplify things for the sake of the conversation.

In short, no one argues that OBE's are exact replicas of the physical world. Yet critics always hold this as a test that is meant to somehow disprove them altogether.

I could go on and on but I am sure you have had this conversation before?

(incidentally, in almost every projection I try to look for a blindly placed object that I can later verify. It doesn't prove the experience, rather, it illustrates that experiencers hold skepticism about the experience.  It also is a good indicator that the experiences are truly distinct and recognizable, not 'just dreams' - i.e. I never try to 'validate' my dreams in this manner.)

Patty

Hello all

The thing about the "conscious projection", from what I have experienced & read, is that...............damn it's hard. From everything I've read even the most experienced has a very brief "blackout" period upon trying to "consciously project". This has been a problem for me also.

The bit I'm talking about is when you are entirely aware of your body & the signals that you are about to project are strong, you either float, roll or fall out of your body ( that bit alone is hard enough to keep control of & not resist going back to the body) then there is like a brief second or two, where the picture seems to go black, nothing! & then you emerge into either the real time zone or an astral level, depending on what you were focusing on.

Then all of a sudden you are in a body that does things your physical body has never felt before & the mind grapples with what should be real & make sense to a physical body, this is a real problem & hard to get over once on the astral. You know you can fly, but your physical memories tells you that you will fall & hurt yourself, you know you can go anywhere in a thought, but choose to walk or take transport, you know you can go through walls, but the temptation is still to go around them.

Many experienced projectors feel they have projected to a particular place, but on arrival, nothing but blackness,giving them the impression of failure, only to have their experience validated through another source later on e.g

Muldoon & Dr Scott Rogo both reported cases where the projector went to a particular place on the physical, but reported nothing, only to later ask the persons they were trying to project to if anything happened. In both cases the unaware party saw an apparition or ghostly form in their bedrooms & were thouroughly freaked out. This sounds like a problem with the transmission of info somehow or like Robert says in AD, shadow memory recall problems.

There is so much to do & so much to learn there is enough for everyone to do experiments on, just not many volunteers willing to co-operate & not be freaked out, plus you need to live reasonably close to experiment productively enough.

Whoops, I'm late for work, cya's

Mobius

I feel a little guilty here that I have helped perpetuate a tangent on "scientific proof". Through the course of this post I've taken in many viewpoints and can see now that this is so very minor to those here who are personally familiar with OBEs.

I'ts funny how I've seemed to come accross as skeptical. I'd say I'm more analytical. I've had first hand experience with a few aspects of the supernatural world and have no problems accepting them, in fact my belief in the higher planes/dimensions/(insert prefered terminology here...) tends to lead me to seek them. I guess I can tend to overanalyse things to form a perspective I'm comfortable with. Maybey that is being skeptical... oh well, enough about me...

What seems to me a fairly important factor her is that people may be trying to find consistant proof in something that is highly varied and subjective. If we were to talk about someones physical eyesight  it would be easy to prove. Blue is blue, square is square - there are constants and points of reference everywhere.

But in the case of OBEs maybey, as everyone thinks differently, due to their personalities, so their astral body might also see things differently. Your seeing something as a result of separating from the physical world. Maybey known constants no longer apply. Many people report seeing similar etheric beings, but how can you prove to someone else what you saw, when they might have little basis for comparison. I've been looking back through other  posts under this topic and it seems nobody really doubts what they saw, their just not always sure what they saw.

Patty, Tisha, Frank... - Have I kind of got the gist of it here, or am I being overanalytical again?

It seems to me an OBE is something to be treasured, as a wonderful personal experience. Because of this we like to share it with our friends. Tom's right in what he said earlier - experiencing something should be proof enough. If others are happy to have you share this with them...good. But if they wont accept it without you proving it - they lose out, because they miss out on the joy that you feel in sharing with them in the experience.

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

Hi Patty

>>I haven't seen anyone here say that AP is real 'due to it's extreme vividness.' Maybe you saw that on another site? <<

I didn't mean that AP was DUE to its extreme vividness, it's that when I have asked some people "How do you KNOW you have actually left your body and this isn't in your mind?" The answer I usually get is something like "it was just so vivid! It FELT so real!" and what I'm saying is that is not proof that you have actually "gone" anywhere. In my dreams I feel like I'm flying by golly, but I"m not actually.

>>I HAVE seen lots of people intuitively recognize the experience as distinct from other types of consciousness.<<

Maybe it is. But intuition isn't proof, or science. Intuition might lead someone down a particular path to proving or testing something, but intuition itself is not any kind of objective test. Having a hunch that the moon is made of cheese doesn't mean it is.

>>I think we all recognize that it would be hard to identify a five digit number. What is your point here?

Why is this hard? What kind of identification test wouldn't be hard, and yet not easy to guess? I don't care what it is. A series of 6 basic shapes? Guess a card out of a deck? I don't care. The point is that if one can project into the real-time zone, like RB suggests, which is a near-exact replica, then it should be possible for someone to come here to my house or neighborhood and do an identification test of some sort.

>>It is entirely possible that there is multiple input going on in the brain during this experience - some of it may be 'dream' input and some of it may be 'physical world' input and I'm trying to oversimplify things for the sake of the conversation.

In short, no one argues that OBE's are exact replicas of the physical world. Yet critics always hold this as a test that is meant to somehow disprove them altogether.<<

I thought in Astral Dynamics RB said that the realtime zone is close enough to the physical to be considered a mirror almost?

I'm not trying to say the seeminly out of body experience isn't REAL. I'm taking issue with what the experience actually IS. Just like I don't argue that american indians of the past saw and felt the sun, but I don't agree that it is a god. Do you see what I"m saying? I don't think there is any evidence, besides a few anecdotal reports here and there, to prove that anyone has actually left or departed or detached from their body in any way, even in any kind of "double" body.

Like I said, if there exists some real=time zone which mirrors the physical, and someone could project into it, where is Osama? Where are a number of people who are at large, if the government is using this and it is real? What is behind that door in the shaft of the great pyramid? These questions should be answerable.

And people usually pounce on the fact that I haven't had a true-blue OBE, but like i said, I'm not questioning the experience itself. The tests I'm seeking would be the exact same kind I would do to prove to myself that I have actually LEFT my body in some manner, and not just having an extremely vivid lucid dream.

Thanks for the post.

Atlas

Hi James,

Regarding your ideas - I think each of us is developing our ideas as best fits us. Your ideas are as valid as anyone else's.  I hold out for proof, others do not. In my opinion we'll all make do with whatever we 'get.'

Hi Atlas,

quote:

---

when I have asked some people "How do you KNOW you have actually left your body and this isn't in your mind?" The answer I usually get is something like "it was just so vivid! It FELT so real!"

---

Can you reference this?  It sounds like the sort of thing one might hear now and then, but might not actually reflect the views of the majority. It certainly would be an inflammatory statement to a skeptic, so perhaps the comment pushed your button?   (My personal response to your question would be that I DON'T know that I have left my body. But that far more often than not when I try to identify something that is blindly placed, I succeed; yet remain unconvinced that anything objectively exterior is happening.)  

quote:

---

..... intuition isn't proof, or science. Intuition might lead someone down a particular path to proving or testing something, but intuition itself is not any kind of objective test. Having a hunch that the moon is made of cheese doesn't mean it is.

---

My point was that a person recognizes the experience. If you had an experience where you felt like "oh my god, I'm walking around without a body" you would recognize it as a typical astral projection. Non-experiencers occasionally claim that AP's are 'just dreams.'  (Off hand I can't reference this! heh heh)  AP's may certainly be entirely internal, but they are clearly distinct from typical dreams. They can be confusing, but they are recognizable.  My point was not that recognition of the state is any sort of proof that the consciousness is physically separated from the body.

quote:

---

>>I think we all recognize that it would be hard to identify a five digit number. What is your point here?

Why is this hard? What kind of identification test wouldn't be hard, and yet not easy to guess? I don't care what it is. A series of 6 basic shapes? Guess a card out of a deck? I don't care. The point is that if one can project into the real-time zone, like RB suggests, which is a near-exact replica, then it should be possible for someone to come here to my house or neighborhood and do an identification test of some sort.

---

This is where lack of experience is dictating your expectations.  Of the 30 - 50 experiences I have had over the last few years, none have lasted more than a minute or two. Significant time was spent in each simply getting my bearings. Most importantly, there were obvious distortions from physicality in ALL of them. Every one.  Maybe fifty percent of the 'information' made no sense at all. And yet in the roughly ten that I tried to verify, in every case I successfully identified at least some part of the target that was set.

Now think about that. Don't jump in with a test yet, just keep listening for a minute.  Distortion of what we agree is the physical world and yet some part of the target was successfully identified.  You can't find Osama with that. You can't identify a five digit number with that. You might be able to tell if a friend chose to wear blue or red that day, or some such, but it might be obscured by all sorts of nonsensical 'noise' in the experience.

If these experiences are anything like the norm --- we can not ask "Where is Osama bin Laden" with them.  They simply aren't controllable enough, detailed enough, or noise-less enough. But we can ask "what can we learn about human consciousness" with these experiences.  (And it could be an incredible leap in understanding.)  I believe we should be able to gather good evidence as to whether AP represents a state away from the body or not. The experiments do not have to have astronomical odds in order to do this. They can have 1:2 odds, provided enough trials are run.

quote:

---

I thought in Astral Dynamics RB said that the realtime zone is close enough to the physical to be considered a mirror almost?

---

I have read AD but not closely enough to see what is and isn't thought to be concrete in the nearest hypothetical real time zone.  Recently on an art bell interview, RB discussed what would be necessary to prove that OBE represents something outside the body. He mentioned something like having the projector sleeping in a room the size of a warehouse (to provide an empty space perhaps?) and being asked to identify something roughly the size of a wall.  In other words, a hell of a big target surrounded by empty space. So regardless of whether the real time zone mirrors the physical world or not - RB does not appear to think that the sorts of experiments you suggest are tenable. In my limited experience I would agree, though I am most certainly only an unconvinced novice.  I have no idea what generates all the random images seen while projecting. Many thoughts exist on this - that it might be one's dream mind, or emotions, or the thoughts of those nearby, or energy signatures (not sure what those are supposed to be), ........

quote:

---

I'm not trying to say the seeminly out of body experience isn't REAL. I'm taking issue with what the experience actually IS.

---

I also want very desperately to know what is the underlying basis for these experiences.  This is why I spend virtually all my time while projecting, trying to get something to verify it. Instead of looking for the akashic records or some such thing. I think some folks might not understand my fixation with this point, but it sounds like you do. :)

Thank you for your time, we should really be doing this over a beer somewhere.

Patty

Let me remind everyone that the so called new age crap has been around a long time- shamanism, hinduism, tibetian buddhism, these people knew that we are much more than the physical. Materialism is the new kid on the block. These old beliefs aren't scientific enough for you-read some quantum mechanics and see what reality is like.

hi patty,

RB didn't say he just was able to identify an object as large as a wall, only that it would be helpful to place the object BEHIND a wall, so as not to cause reality fluctuations, which are likely to happen when you pass through solid matter.

Hi Atlas, good to hear from you again. I'm still working on trying to get the necessary high degree of conscious control in order to project to someplace in particular. Mobius touched on how difficult it is a few posts ago on this thread.

I have learnt a LOT the past couple of months especially after becoming enthralled by Monroe's concept of "phasing in" to the Astral. Mobius, in his post, talks about blackouts. Well, that's basically what I have been struggling to overcome.

I found that by trying to copy Monroe's work I am now projecting with the minimum of reality fluctuations and blackout times but I *still* cannot yet fathom how to project to a place in particular in the RT zone.

James S:

You say, "What seems to me a fairly important factor here is that people may be trying to find consistant proof in something that is highly varied and subjective."

If I may point out, the Astral realms are as stable as the Physical (perhaps even more so). They appear highly varied and subjective because of the limitations of our mental faculties in trying to comprehend what is going on.

For example, when we get sceptical on the Physical we have the strong tendency to say, "I'll believe it when I see it"
 
Okay, so you project within the Astral and, not realising the ground rules, you release all kinds of emotions that instantly create and continue to fuel the circumstances that surround you. Your conscious awareness can see what surrounds you so it believes that what it is seeing is real.

Big problem is, though, your mental faculties will react to these circumstances in exactly the same way as it would do on the Physical.

That's why it is ever so easy to get caught in a loop where you create the initial circumstances that surround you; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances.................

Learning to hold precisely the right kind of mental state is rather difficult and takes lots of practice. Well, that's how it seems with most people, myself included.

Yours,
Frank    



   

Frank,  what you said was what I think I was trying to say, you just phrased it a lot better. It makes more sense.

As to perpetuating circumstances, I guess holding the right mental state is just as important in everyday life as well.

thanks for your input.


James S
(Fate amenable to change)

You knew about your dog's death before anyone told you, and you still claim that there is a rational explanation for this occurence?  Good luck.

Why doesn't more of the 5 billion people in the world know about ESP or clairvoyance or obe/astral projection?  Because 95% of this world is so caught up in materialism that they don't even experience these things.  That is what is wrong with the world today.

The world population hit 6 billion a couple years ago.

It is getting harder to be completely ignorant these days, now that communication and travel around the world are getting easier. Unfortunately, though, the same internet which I had expected to see remove ignorance completely is also in use to spread it around.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ashfo:
Firstly, BD, I think you misinterpreted me.. I was quoting someone else... I strongly believe in the paranormal/spiritual etc.

There is a way of recognizing something as "true" in the scientific world without having the same results appear in a test with all the variables constant. It's called the"scientific, systematic observation of a phenomenon". For example, we accept that lightning and thunder are natural occurences. But we cannot duplicate them in a controlled environment. Using this approach is the only way to prove - or disprove - many phenomena. All your talk about "measuring" things to attain if they are real or not displays your ingrained belief in traditional science.



Hello Ashfo!  This wasn't me,... that you're answering here!  I only posted a link to some "scientific" evidence of proof.  But I know these forums can sometimes get a bit confusing,...eh?  :)  S'okay!  Have a good one!

BD

Frank -

quote:

---

If I may point out, the Astral realms are as stable as the Physical (perhaps even more so). They appear highly varied and subjective because of the limitations of our mental faculties in trying to comprehend what is going on.

For example, when we get sceptical on the Physical we have the strong tendency to say, "I'll believe it when I see it"

Okay, so you project within the Astral and, not realising the ground rules, you release all kinds of emotions that instantly create and continue to fuel the circumstances that surround you. Your conscious awareness can see what surrounds you so it believes that what it is seeing is real.

Big problem is, though, your mental faculties will react to these circumstances in exactly the same way as it would do on the Physical.

That's why it is ever so easy to get caught in a loop where you create the initial circumstances that surround you; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances.................

---

Are you saying that what we see in the astral realms is not stable, but that the conditions that create them are?

I'm trying to understand how your example reflects a stable environment ---- have I got it?

Junkie - thanks for the correction - how does the wall prevent fluctuations? my recollection is that going through a wall creates fluctuations so if anything I would think you wouldn't want one around - ????

Patty

>>Why doesn't more of the 5 billion people in the world know about ESP or clairvoyance or obe/astral projection? Because 95% of this world is so caught up in materialism that they don't even experience these things. That is what is wrong with the world today.<<

I know. It's terrible that not everyone is as smart and as spiritually advanced as you, isn't it?


Atlas

I am still hoping for a well thought out response. These kinds of discussion can really lead to productive thinking on both sides. More skepticism for the overly credulous, and more consideration for the overly skeptical.

But it requires patience, time, and open discussion.

Patty

I've ignored this thread for awhile due to the "scientific proof" tangent . . . I've read it all before. . . a lot of good points about things like "belief" and "perception" and such . . . but also a stubborn persistence on the part of some that there actually is "reality" and "unreality," and that if something cannot be scientifically proven it is not real. SIGH.  I'm so over that . . . and I feel so much better now.  

I'm not posting this in a hoity-toity way.  It's just that if you recall from my earlier post, the real/unreal argument is kind of irrelevant.  Reality is a funny thing.  Perception is a funny thing.  The more cosmic you get, the LESS clear it gets and the MORE clear it gets . . . both at the same time.

The "enlightened" ones treat their waking existence as a dream . . . because it is all the same to them.  They never "sleep."  Their astral projections are as "real" as you are reading this.  Heaven knows I'm not THERE yet!  But don't you think it would be nice to get to that place? You won't get to that place by working at tomorrow's lottery numbers or dragging yourself into the dust with Osama. You will get there with love, surrender, peace, meditation, all the things those mystics were/are talking about.

Some "lightbulb moments" that brought me peace (and more OBEs), I will share with you:

Everything is happening NOW.  That we experience time/space is a Godsend (literally) because we couldn't handle the REAL reality if we took it all in at once!  So phenomena like time-travel and future-seeing are only natural, once you get in touch with the NOW.

We are One.  We only seem separate in our little fractured minds.  So, phenomena like psychic communication should only be expected once you get in touch with the ONE.

There is a holograph image of the entire universe (boundless and infinite?) inside of your soul.  So you can go anywhere without leaving. Actually, if you really think about it, there is nowhere else to go.  

Knowing the above it is easier to accept that we are little points of consciousness that can move ANYWHERE/ANYWHEN IN THE UNIVERSE at will, once we figure it out.  

Frank and Patty's descriptions about how hard it is to get your bearings during an OBE when your emotions/expectations get in the way resonate with me pretty well . . . it's kind of like "waking" life, yes?  Your emotions/expectations color your waking life too . . "as above, so below."

tisha

hi patty,

no, it's supposed to be a "freestanding" wall, so you can walk around it when OBE.

(((Tisha)))

That's beautiful.  You know, I feel like we're at the same football game - and I'm on the field and you're a cheerleader. Or you're in section G and I'm in the band. Or I'm in the locker room and you're in the reporter's box.

Great game, eh?  I am in no rush to get over the proof thing. I know that it is a very valuable stage of my personal development. And where you are looks great too. Maybe I'll come over there and hang out somewhere down the road.


XOXOX

Patty

Hey Frank

After reading your last post another penny dropped for me or another piece to the puzzle. I've seen you mention the "phasing in" bit that Monroe often mentions, but I never entirely understood it & just put it down to personal descriptions or terminology to something I have allready experienced or will experience soon enough, but havn't got my own descriptive term to identify the actual process.

When I wrote about the blackouts I was thinking of the description that I have read in a few other books & experience myself, but now that I think about it I can see what you were/are trying to get your head around with phasing. Monroe used the term a fair bit, but I never put 2 & 2 together, so thanks for clearing that up for me, gives me a different spin to it now.

I recorded an OBE the other night before I went to sleep & it was most confusing as I was trying so hard just to keep focus on what it was that I wanted to do & maintain control so that I could record every detail along the way.  Basically I was trying to go to an upper astral level/ plane & I wanted to start from the real time zone, so I'll summarize the OBE I recorded to better explain.

"SKYSCRAPER"
Date: 10/ 7/ 02
Time: 22: 35 - 23:10
Brief description: Huge tower, elevator, 17th floor, 80th floor, panoramic views of a city & a nearby park.
Location: Started from bedroom,unidentified city, unidentified building, 17th floor, 80th floor.
Details: Usual relaxation process, felt myself drop down briefly then float up, blackout briefly or no picture or vision & then land at the end of my bed. Think to myself, I wish to go to an upper astral level, I look up & then the blackout again or no picture & I emerge inside an elevator with vision.

Nice modern looking elevator with LED display of floor levels, buttons black with red ring of light around the outside, I look at the numbers & see from basement to the 80th floor. For some reason I get a feeling about the 17th floor, so I push the button, I feel a brief rising but then the blackout again, no picture & then I get vision back & the doors open & I get out on the 17th floor.

Nothing remarkable about this floor, looks like a modern office & there is some people at desks working, one looks up at me & I feel he can see me, but it looks more like he was daydreaming. I decide there is nothing here for me to see & I go back to the elevator, it opens, I walk in & push the button to go to the 80th floor.

Again, the blackout briefly & then I get the picture back & the doors open onto the 80th floor. I get out & see an incredible expansive city that I have never seen before. I seem to be on an observatory level of the building & glass windows are on all sides, but I don't see any of those binoculars or telescopes you usually see in observatories, also the level is empty but for me. I am confused at where I am so decide to go back to my body, the blackout happens again & I sit up in bed & write it down.

So Frank, is the period where I move from one scene to another what Monroe means by phasing in? It's frustrating because it's so hard to tell what is happening in those moments of blackouts or if I'm right the phasing in period.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Hi Tisha

>>I've ignored this thread for awhile due to the "scientific proof" tangent . . . I've read it all before. . . a lot of good points about things like "belief" and "perception" and such . . . but also a stubborn persistence on the part of some that there actually is "reality" and "unreality,"<<

What do you mean that it is "stubborn persistance" that there is a reality and an unreality? Or you saying there is no such thing?

>>and that if something cannot be scientifically proven it is not real. SIGH. I'm so over that . . . and I feel so much better now.<<

Why are you over it? Because it wasn't giving you the kind of verification you wanted? I'm not sure anyone here was arguing that the experience of OB is not real, just about what the nature of the experience actually is.

>>Reality is a funny thing. Perception is a funny thing. The more cosmic you get, the LESS clear it gets and the MORE clear it gets . . . both at the same time<<

Can you elaborate a little bit?

>>You won't get to that place by working at tomorrow's lottery numbers or dragging yourself into the dust with Osama<<

I don't know...I think it would be very "spiritually rewarding" to win 60 million and give it all to charities. There is a "reality" where there are starving children in desperate need of food. 60 million could go a long way towards helping them out, I don't see what's so non-spiritual about that.

>>So phenomena like time-travel and future-seeing are only natural, once you get in touch with the NOW.<<

How does understanding that we live in the present make time travel possible?

>>Knowing the above <<

Do you have faith in the above, or do you KNOW it? If you do know it, how did you come to know it?

Just curious

Atlas

To everyone,

My original intent was to separate fact from fiction with respect to OBEs.  Experiences in life can be objective and subjective.  I will give an example of each:

SUBJECTIVE Experience:

A room is 60 degrees F.  Someone comes in from a winter storm and says, "phew, this room is nice and warm!"  Another person comes into this room from a hot summer day and says, "phew, this room is nice and cool!"  Well, which is it?

Whatever the room "feels" like is from perception of past experience.  In other words, if you are cold, the room will feel warm and vice-versa.  Each experience is a correct one given the circumstances for each person.

OBJECTIVE Experience:

Objectivity is based on absolutes.  If a scientist were asked to record the temperature of the room, he would state that it is 60 F.  If asked if the room was cold or hot, he could only state what was absolute -- the temperature of the room.  

Most things in our life, if not nearly all things, are subjective experiences.  Pleasure feels much more powerful when it follows pain.  We as humans live our lives in variations of absolutes that cannot be quantitative.  In other words, we cannot put a specific measurement on subjective experiences.  If I asked you, "How happy do you feel right now," you could state you are very happy or somewhat happy.  If I pressed for an exact measurement, you could not give me one because it is subjective.

We as people are merely a collection of our past experiences -- some of these experiences happened at extremely young ages and helped to shape us in ways we cannot fully comprehend.  We are, in essence, our experiences.  Our memories, passions, goals, dreams and commitments are based on past experiences that have shaped our personality.

This debate about "god / afterlife / meaning of life" has dragged on since the beginning of time -- yet, we are no closer today to solving these ultimate questions than we were back then.  

I think it is important for humans to embrace religion and other beliefs to help them get through life.  If life is merely just a random fluke where no meaning exists in our life, I think people would be heart-broken.  People want to believe in a greater power -- people want to believe in the eternal -- most importantly, people want to believe in purpose and meaning to their life.

However, at the same time, one cannot ignore the evil that lurks in human nature.  Take for instance the five year old girl who was kidnapped, raped and killed.  What kind of a person does this?  Does he have a soul?  We would like to hate him because he represents the darker aspects of our own humanity.  However, do not be mistaken that his traits do not exist within all of us at a core level.  I'm sure everyone on this board has, at one time or another, come close to a breaking point from hatred, anger, rejection or depression.  

What sets us apart from people like him is that we temper our emotions with the collective wisdom we accumulate from experience.  I have always been an idealist and I always try to view the positive aspects of humanity.  If I see a homeless man, I can only help but to stop and imagine what it must be to live his life.  When September 11'th occurred, I couldn't help but to stop and think what it must have been like to stand at the ledge of the window with my back on fire and no other alternative but to jump.  

I have meant many challenges in my own life and, even at the age of 25, I could have never dreamed as a kid how difficult life can be.  As an adult we are allotted freedoms that we don't enjoy as a kid, but with those freedoms come immense responsibilities.  I have learned that, even in relationships, everything comes down to experiences, instincts and patience.  Just recently I broke up with someone that I really loved and that tore me apart inside.  However, that pain only helps me grow as a person and with that pain, I will become a stronger individual in new relationships.

I do not deny that their are things in this reality that may go beyond our science.  This may just be from the shortcomings of our present science or the fact that these things exist outside of logic.  It would be illogical to necessarily assume that the physical universe must operate on constant laws, even though we are taught that in physics.

Now, ahem ... :)  Getting back to OBEs.  I have had many experiences with OBEs.  I don't talk to most people about it because, in this culture, many people who speak of these things would not be taken seriously or possibly considered a freak.  Worse, they may be considered emotionally unstable or suffering from a mental condition.  That is why I choose to keep my experiences to myself and those closest to me.  

In all my experiences, I have never had any *proof* (in the normal sense of the word) that my experiences were real.  When I say "real," I think it is necessary to define real.  Real, as in this reality, is something that is verifiable by more than one person.  If I spray paint a wall and leave, you can later come by and see the writing on the wall.  Likewise, if I were to have an OBE and if I were also to consider it a *real* experience, I would argue that it must be verifiable in some way -- hence it was all just a dream.  

Many will say, "well I felt myself move around!"  In a lucid dream, you can vividly have all five senses working.  This doesn't constitute *proof*.  Now, if I were to "project," go down the street and read a license tag and then wake up and be able to verify this information, it would definitely lend some credence to my experience.

However, I have never heard or read of any OBE that signified that they were a true projection of the "soul" from the body.  And, to that regard, just what is the "soul."  Do any of you believe that the "soul" is eternal?  How do you account for the millions of new people each day?  Do these souls just get generated from somewhere else?  If souls are eternal, would they even have a beginning?  

The prospect of life meaning nothing and just being a long and drawn-out affair is not a "romantic philosophy."  This is most likely the reason why over 90% of the world is religious -- religion seems to be an innate human characteristic.  It doesn't matter who or what you believe, so long as you have some view of something greater than the "here and now."  

I've read many arguments from reputable sources in science journals that have shown that evolution is a straight-forth process and that we are merely animals.  Anyone who owns a dog or a cat understands they are capable of love and emotion, and basic intelligence.  They can be trained, just as humans are from past experiences.  Why are we so special when compared to every other living thing in this universe?  

We cannot delude ourselves, yet the need to seek out meaning is also very powerful and overwhelming.  I have seen 50% of everything in my life point to "this is just what it is" and the other half suggesting that there is something more.  I constantly find my logic pitted against my faith and emotions, and my idealism to want to accept a greater purpose.  

I have rambled on long enough.  Thanks for sharing everyone!

Jason

Atlas, I'll try.  I wasn't going to try, because (this is a quote from somewhere) "most leave through the door they came in."  Meaning, why should I try to change you - - - you are where you are, psychically, for a good reason, and I could write ANYTHING here and it wouldn't change your opinion.

But you asked questions, so I'll try to respond.

Q.  " What do you mean that it is "stubborn persistance" that there is a reality and an unreality? Or you saying there is no such thing?"

A.  Yup, that's kind of what I'm saying.  We have a "consensus reality," i.e., some norms we generally agree to so as to operate effectively together in time/space - - - but only generally, because there is obviously plenty to fight over, just read the news.  For instance, when I say black, you THINK you know what I mean.  You might be wrong.  But it's good enough to get us through the day.

However, REAL "reality" is . . . well, it's quite "unreal." (HM, a contradiction in terms? Why, yes!)  And unreality is real.  Anything you can conceive of is real, is happening, is now. Reality is unbelievably, mindblowingly subjective.

For instance, you think you are solid.  You think you are mostly water, because that what the teachers told you in school.  But you are not.  You are mostly dead space.  Whoop!  Who knew?  It's not that the teachers were lying.  They just didn't know how much dead space existed between the atoms that make up so-called solid matter.  Once the human community fully understands and internalizes its inherent spaciness it will start interacting with the world a little differently . . . with different ideas about what is possible.  CONSENSUS REALITY SHIFT!!! Who knows what will come of it?

Q. " Why are you over it? Because it wasn't giving you the kind of verification you wanted? I'm not sure anyone here was arguing that the experience of OB is not real, just about what the nature of the experience actually is."

A.  Some of you might be surprised by this, but I'm a relative newcomer to this forum and the whole OBE scene, so I must confess that my "gotta prove it" phase was short lived.  And I must confess that my boyfriend in Virginia has a playing card on his nightstand, just in case I should decide to visit.  But you know what?  When I launch into the astral, my mind is so preoccupied with spiritual learning that "cards" and "proof" and "science" don't seem to enter into the equation ( I always seem to get a LOT more than I bargained for, when I am successful at achieving an OBE).

Anyway, Atlas, for your question.  After my last two OBEs when I came "home" with the lesson that there is a holographic image of the universe inside of my soul, the whole issue of whether I was really "leaving" my body became kind of moot.  And THAT's why I feel so good.  The whole thing might be in my head . . . but who cares.  I have the entire universe within me.  I am a part of the WHOLE.  Woo hoo!

Q.  Could you elaborate on : "Reality is a funny thing. Perception is a funny thing. The more cosmic you get, the LESS clear it gets and the MORE clear it gets . . . both at the same time."  

A.  Not without sounding like a blithering idiot.  Reconciling dualities/opposites/inconsistencies can be very hard for a human to achieve.  Trying to EXPLAIN it is even harder.  

Q.  I don't know...I think it would be very "spiritually rewarding" to win 60 million and give it all to charities. There is a "reality" where there are starving children in desperate need of food. 60 million could go a long way towards helping them out, I don't see what's so non-spiritual about that.

A.  Win the lottery feed a few thousand hungry kids . . . they poop it out in three days, and guess what, they're still poor.  HM.  Not much help there.  I'd rather work to spread love and do RIGHT- - it's contagious, and then instead of just me doling out the $$$, there are thousands of people doing RIGHT by the innocents of this world, with food, medicine, and justice.  I like my idea better.  Don't get me wrong - - I give $$$ when I can, but OBEing is HARD WORK . . . I don't want to waste it, I want something bigger than money.

Q.  How does understanding that we live in the present make time travel possible?

A.  I'm not talking about living in the present . . . I'm talking about the eternal NOW, all points of time happening at once.  No space/time.  Imagine the Un-time before the big bang.  There is a name for it.  It starts with an S, drat, I can't remember what it is.  The SINGULARITY.  Yeah!

Q.  Do you have faith in the above, or do you KNOW it? If you do know it, how did you come to know it?

A.  Pure faith.  It's good enough for me . . . the proof is my life.

Blessings,
tisha

>>Atlas, I'll try. I wasn't going to try, because (this is a quote from somewhere) "most leave through the door they came in." Meaning, why should I try to change you - - - you are where you are, psychically, for a good reason, and I could write ANYTHING here and it wouldn't change your opinion.<<

This is not true at all. It kind of bothers me how often I get this kind of "you will never change" response. That somehow a skeptic (which I am not really) is set in stone and cannot be changed. I'm just looking for a little reason and logic, to help me understand things like everyone else.

>>Yup, that's kind of what I'm saying. We have a "consensus reality," i.e., some norms we generally agree to so as to operate effectively together in time/space - - - but only generally, because there is obviously plenty to fight over, just read the news. For instance, when I say black, you THINK you know what I mean. You might be wrong. But it's good enough to get us through the day.<<

Right, but I wouldnt say this makes reality itself subjective, but the interpretation is. For instance, if I get punched in the nose, it doesnt bleed because we "agree" it does..  If I go blind when I lose an eye, I don't think it's because I agree to it This is an objective event that occurs regardless of how I feel about it. How we FEEL about it is different though, and subjective.

>>Reality is unbelievably, mindblowingly subjective.<<

See, what I think is that there is an OBJECTIVE reality that exists independent of observation. The INTERPRETATION of this reality is subjective, but the actual reality is not. Take 9/11 for instance. There are many different ideas about who is responsible, who is bad, who is good, why it happened etc, ...these are all subjective responses, but they are all responding to the OBJECTIVE reality of 2 planes crashing into the WTC on 9/11.

>>Anything you can conceive of is real, is happening, is now.<<

See this is the kind of statement I don't understand. What do you mean? If I think in my head that I can jump from the eiffel tower and fly to london that it is real? Is that what you mean? I can reasonably be sure that no matter what, if I jump unaided from the eiffel tower, I will crash into the ground with a 99% chance of being killed.

>>Once the human community fully understands and internalizes its inherent spaciness it will start interacting with the world a little differently . . .<<

Why? I don't see how understanding that there is space between my atoms changes things. It's not as if because I realize this, I will start being able to walk through walls, right? In what way is this supposed to change one's world view?

>>A. Pure faith. It's good enough for me . . . the proof is my life.<<

I see.

THanks for the response.

Atlas

Patty: The Astral proper is a very stable environment. What I mean is, when you are able to remain completely closed, emotionally, and have all your senses working normally. Which, of course, is *very* tricky to do but by no means impossible.

Problem is, any slight variation from this mental stance and reality fluctuations begin to come into play. In other words, your scenery begins changing and entities begin being created. Which means you stop experiencing the true-Astral and you become engulfed by your own emotional interplay. Which is basically what happens to everybody at first (well, maybe there are the odd exceptions).

Another big stumbling block arises out of this, in that, people think they are indulging in a true-Astral experience: when all they are experiencing is their own emotional interplay. It is extremely difficult to separate the two. Next to imposible, in fact. Unless you are experienced enough to know what to do.

Problem with that is, you get caught in a Catch-22 situation where, in order to know what to look for you need to have had a degree of true-Astral experience... but you will never get a degree of true-Astral experience if you are locked in emotional interplay. As I have said before, it took me over 5 years to get out of this.

Another difficulty with experiencing emotional interplay is you never get to finding out anything interesting. You cannot interact with Astral residents on any kind of meaningful basis; you never get to meet any guides who can take you around and show you what's what, answer questions for you, and so on.

As a result, you get locked in a situation (like Jason, et al) where you know that you are having what feels like an obe experience. However, when you analyse those experiences, there is nothing about them that would suggest they are anything other than lucid dreams.

From that stance, I guess it would only be natural to conclude (albeit wrongly) that obe's are merely lucid dreams.

Yours,
Frank







 

Mobius:

As I understand it, the phasing-in concept is what Monroe used to make contact with the Astral. As I pointed out before, there was no laying down for hours doing any kind of "energy work" or igniting Chakras, etc. He seemed to just lay back and make contact in a few seconds.

The big problem I have is due to what you call: blackouts.

These occur with me initially when trying to make Astral contact, and can also occur during my Astral experiences. Very much in the manner you describe.

Often I'd be laying down relaxing and allowing my focal point of awareness to drift upwards to the top of my head. Then I might blackout for an instant then suddely see the Astral come into view. Or I might jolt back to the Physical, or find myself in a variety of other states.

Because there would be a short blackout I'd get frustrated thinking what happened during this blackout that got me from there to here. The frustration was due to not being able to find out what, exactly, was the mental trigger. Because if I couldn't realise that, then I couldn't repeat it at will. And repeat it at will, is what I am trying to achieve.

That's why I became so enthralled by Monroe's technique of phasing in.

I think I'm getting close. The past couple of weeks I deliberately paid no prior attention to the physical at all. Instead, I've been building a mental picture of two small hands that reside in my head.

I mentally thing of these hands going searching around trying to "hit the spot". They go around massaging various parts of the brain, trying to find the mental switch that has to be thrown in order to make connection to the Astral.

I've had some *very* interesting results with this.

A couple of times now I have found myself at the onset of feeling gentle mental vibrations (that I recognise as the onset of an obe). The difference being, however, I am *entirely* aware of my physical body and my physical surroundings. Problem is, the slight excitement at finding myself being able to do this scuppers the attempt. But that is something I will overcome with practise.

Plus, there is still an ever so tiny blackout in that I am unsure of the exact spot my focal point of consciousness was at when the vibrations came about.

Another thing I managed to do, but again there is a similar tiny blackout, is to be completely aware of my physical body and physical surroundings, yet I have found myself looking at pictures in my mind that are as vivid, and seem as real as any image I have seen with my physical eyes.

In fact, first time it happened I opened my physical eyes to check that they were, in fact, closed. Then it was like there were two images, one slightly higher than the other. The lower image was of my bedroom that I know was coming from my physical eyes as, when I closed them, the image went away.

The upper image was just as clear but, what I was seeing on that "screen", was not of the physical world. It was like someone was playing me a kind of movie. But I couldn't make sense of it all.

As I've said before, another morning, another mystery. :)

Yours,
Frank  

Thanks, Frank!

I can't tell you how exciting it is to contemplate reaching a different level replete with such interesting people and experiences. Five years? Phhffft. That's nothin. :)  Though it sounds like you are more diligent, it might take me six. Still, I expect to be engaging in these pursuits for the rest of my life.

I was reading AD last night - and Robert was also talking of how things become more stable.  So, two experiencers giving me the same kind of pep talk -

I feel  pretty psyched!

Patty

this is not oobe related, but it is clairvoyant related (or "anomalous cognition" for those who follow the link).

http://www.parascope.com/ds/articles/parapsychologyDoc.htm

This is a report by Dr. Kenneth Kress who talked about the CIA sponsered remote viewing experiments. This report is also found in a book i just finished reading (The Psychic Battlefield) and can be found in other places as well, so it was not made up by this site. Dr. Kress actually worked for the CIA so this is not some bs conspiracy thing. i strongly suggest you check it out; it comes to the conclusion that remote viewing (anomalous cognition, clairvoyance, etc) is real, but to get "operational" usefulness out of it would require further funding by the CIA.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

I dont want to sound too disrespectful, but most of this thread seems like people tinkling outside the pot. I dont believe you can learn to be psychic, you are born with it, and when you or someone else finds out for you, then you can learn to hone it, control it, but never explain it in 'scientific', 'religious' terms. Somehow psychic ability runs in families, such is my case, like lefthandedness, or having three legs for that matter. But to teach someone to grow a third leg is too absurd.

Mirador

i have to disagree mirador.. things such as remote viewing were even once taught by the government. remote viewing could be considered psychic, right? astral projection, remote viewing, the use of the akashic records through just deep meditation.. all of these things could be considered psychical, and they don't have to be inherited. ..lefthandedness wouldn't a good example for your view either, because you can learn to be right handed with some practice, and i've known people who've done that. having three legs is a genetic mutation. i don't think i've heard of many people with three legs.

we can't explain such things is scientific terms yet because some basic laws of science would be broken, and it is almost impossible to prove such things without physical proof. science will overcome this one day.. hopefully..

Mirador,

Your partly right in your thoughts.
What seems to be the case is anyone can do this stuff with time, and practice, but there are some that can just do it naturally.

An example - my wife has had spontaneous OBEs during Yoga when her class started learning chakra exercises, and what she described as a huge surge of energy rushed up her spine. She was born a telepath, as was her mother. She doesn't talk about it much as she's not at all interested in pursuing any of this kind of thing.

Me, on the other hand, have had to work at Astral Phasing (not yet had a regular OBE), and struggle to get the kind of energy needed to do anything like what my wife can do without trying.

What I've learned about all of this is that it comes down to energy. Some people, like my wife, naturally have a much stronger energy body. Just like some people are naturally much stronger physically than others, because, like you say, it runs in the family. For those of us who aren't as strong, the energy body, like the physical body, can be exercised to be made stronger. When this happens, then the psychic powers and the OBEs start happening.

For some people though, the ability to become psychic is not possible and seems absurd, not because they are not at all able to do it, but because their minds won't allow, or accept that it is possible.

Unfortunately in most cultures on Earth, we are taught from a very early age what is possible and what isn't. As the human race seems to have embraced science so much for the answers to all things, paranormal or "new age" concepts are just not accepted.

James.

Haven't read all the replies, but I just got tempted to say this.

Nobody can convince you, it all comes down to what you believe. New Age beliefs can either be total crap to a person or the gospel truth, or perhaps somewhere in between. Decide for yourself what your truth is, don't go whining to us about it.

Later
-FT

Hello!  My name is Jason and I am 25 years old.  I'm from Baltimore, MD.  Here is my problem with this entire subject:

Yes, I have had SP and lucid dreams.  I've gone through the paralysis, buzzing ring that spreads through the body, etc. etc.  However, why must people attribute these things to something paranormal?  This is merely the brain going through various processes and some parts shutting off for the night while others remain active.

OBE's, in my humble opinion, are interesting experiences, but not proof that we have a soul or survive death.  

Furthermore, there are other comments in here that are just completely nuts.  For instance, someone gave advice about how to avoid "negative spirits" on the lower planes.  This isn't Dungeons and Dragons.  I'm sorry, but I just have a very difficult time understanding how people invent these aspects of their reality.  

I'm sure many of you will have comments to this, but I am just extremely skeptical of the validity of OBEs -- not that they can't happen, but the interpretation of what is happening.  OBEs are merely brain processes, nothing more and nothing less.

Your thoughts are always welcome.  Have a great day!

aphie