NDE (Near Death Experience) versus astral projection?

[todd421757]

Guys what do you think about this article. The Text says that near death experience are  just lucid dreams .
http://digitaljournal.com/article/320171

This article is leaving out some important details.

His techniques of reproducing the NDE was done with coming out of sleep. Chances are lucid dreams will occur when coming out of sleep.

Most NDE's happen at times other than coming out of sleep, so there isn't a rem lucid dream involved.

All Raduga's study proved was you can hypnotize your subconscious mind to achieve a NDE like experience during a controlled lucid dream.

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http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/obes_while_wide_awake_with_mind_split-t38124.0.html

I would love for Raduga to explain how the OBE's found in the link above are lucid dreams. Because anyone can easily figure out the OBE's in the link above are not lucid dreams. There is no rem stage present. The same principles can be applied to NDE's during trauma related accidents. Those are not lucid dreams.

I also performed the same experiment as Raduga. I taught someone to be able to see the tunnel and light and her higher self in an OBE.

[catmeow]

todd is correct. There is a class of spontaneous OBE which occurs whilst the physical body is fully awake and active. These OBEs can not be explained as REM state byproducts, since no REM state can possibly exist, whilst the physical body is wide awake, talking, driving etc.  The whole REM state explanation for OBEs is a red herring. EEG studies of people who could induce OBEs, such as Bob Monroe, Ingo Swann etc, have shown no REM state correlation.

[catmeow]

I will just add that there seems to be a creeping movement these days to explain NDEs and OBEs as "REM intrusion". I really think this is nonsense. It's a bit like the hypoxia explanation; unproven and not applicable to many cases. I'm not even sure what "REM intrusion" means.

Apart from the fact that clearly there is a very significant number of OBEs and NDEs which have nothing to do with REM sleep, and can't be explained this way, the explanation is just sleight of hand. 

The so called REM explanation is another example of rationalising the mysterious by applying pseudo scientific vocabulary which thereby gives an air of reason and authority. However, the vocabulary explains nothing and adds nothing. It is a bit like the term"spontaneous remission" used to rationalise the miraculous, and thereby render it less miraculous, without actually providing any explanation at all. We don't even know what REM sleep is. Or hypnogogia.

Give it a scientific sounding name and we give it a scientific explanation.

[Nameless]

I wonder if there are any reports of someone who had a NDE in the middle of the night while there physical body was sleeping, and they had no reality fluctuations?

This is exactly what happened to me in 2006. I haven't even thought to see if there are other reports of this. Unfortunately I was home when this happened so have no medical proof with the exception of later going to the hospital where I received treatment and a heart stent.

[RobertForsythe]

All Raduga's study proved was you can hypnotize your subconscious mind to achieve a NDE like experience during a controlled lucid dream.

This sentence sums it up succinctly, Todd.
I stated elsewhere that this sort of claim is like a little kid pretending the box the new dishwasher came in is a rocket ship and he flies it to the moon in a game of wild imagination. Then he goes around claiming that he has gone to the moon. It is so absurd it is astounding that it is taken seriously by anyone at all. It is like saying Japan does not exist because I can make some pretty darn good sushi in my kitchen.