The Astral Pulse

Has anybody tried using drugs as a means to attain the experiense like: ie Nitrous Oxide, dmt, Ketamine  etc etc?

I really wouldn't call it drugs but I like to take Melatonin sometimes. It helps make dreams more "vivid" and it is easier to lucid dream when taking it. Doesn't seem to help much on OBEs though.

Personally, I find that if someone has had an experience whilst on a particular drug, I don't qualify it as a "genuine" experience.

I mean, if you chomp away on a handful of mushrooms, and then start seeing things and so on, wouldn't you always think to yourself "well, hey, that was some experience, but it was the mushrooms - it wasn't really me."  And you could end up relying on mushrooms, which is pretty grim, cause they taste horrible (so I've been told...)

I believe drugs totally invalidates an experience.  That's my opinion anyway.

Sarah

Yeah, I agree Selski. In fact not only will it invalidate the first experience, it may even cause doubts of future experiences not caused by drugs.

Finally,  I advise not to circumvent the natural order of things, but try astral projection the natural, albeit, hard way. As with all quick fixes, there is always some price to pay - and it may not be worth it, it could even forfeit your success in astral projection forever.

Quote from: dataYeah, I agree Selski. In fact not only will it invalidate the first experience, it may even cause doubts of future experiences not caused by drugs.

Finally,  I advise not to circumvent the natural order of things, but try astral projection the natural, albeit, hard way. As with all quick fixes, there is always some price to pay - and it may not be worth it, it could even forfeit your success in astral projection forever.

so you would say the same thing about the brain wave entrainment programs?

Brainwave files entrain your brain, to the best of my knowledge they do not hinder your natural potential.

I have read that people often project naturally when in hospital and given certain sedatives or drugs.

I'm not sure if drugs make it easier to project in the future (from what I have heard it is easier in future once you have left the body the first time), but I wouldn't take them just for the sake of projecting. If I was already using something like this I would use it as a "push" and then try to do it without depending on anything, like with brainwave files.


Alex

Quote from: alexdBrainwave files entrain your brain, to the best of my knowledge they do not hinder your natural potential.

I have read that people often project naturally when in hospital and given certain sedatives or drugs.

I'm not sure if drugs make it easier to project in the future (from what I have heard it is easier in future once you have left the body the first time), but I wouldn't take them just for the sake of projecting. If I was already using something like this I would use it as a "push" and then try to do it without depending on anything, like with brainwave files.


Alex

lol I know you are going to think this is crazy but when I got out of the hospital just recently they gave me a pain med called talwin I dont know what kind of pain med it is but I had back surgery and do you know when I was on that medicine I could actually tell what my dog was thinking

well I can tell you I only told one person of that incident  :lol:  and I wont tell another soul about it

but that medicine was very strong and I took a double dose as I hurt myself right after surgery I actually reopened my incision and had to go to the emergency room but the person I told will never let me hear the end of that one

mental telepathy with a chihuahua

but it was real she was telling me there werent any bones out in the place where I put them out for them

well I got up and went into the kitchen and sure enough there wasnt any bones in there so I put her a few out

it was really nice to know what she was thinking for a change but I wonder what she thought of me getting up and getting the bones for her?

I did stop taking the medicine though because that was too strange for me

Femmstar, that sounds very interesting.

As regards to:

Quoteso you would say the same thing about the brain wave entrainment programs?

No, but within limits as well. The purpose of mind entraining music/sound, is to acclimate your mind to different states of awareness, so that you recall these states more easily. However, if you overly use it to do this, or need to use it to create these states, you may become dependent on them. Much like one becomes dependent on drugs.

To use sounds, is not unnatural. The importance of sounds to cause shifts in awareness has been known for a long time, hence why we use mantras.

All drugs will do, will undermine your own control over your mind, and you don't want that. You want to have presence of mind. You want to be in control over your mind. Drugs, will impair your consciousness, especially hallucinogens, and make you more susceptible to negative influences, and according to many, insidious negative entities.


I personally do not take any mind altering substances, from alcohol, nicotine, tobacco, and very minimal(if any) caffeine. I have almost eliminated all soda and pop drinks from my diet, and gone to drinking fresh juices and water. Water in particular is full of life energy and it essential for psychic development and meditation.

Quotemental telepathy with a chihuahua

Hehehe..that made me chuckle!   My mom has a chihuahua..I call it rat just to tick her off..:P  I'll add a photo of "Coco" dressed in her finest..

Anyhoo..  have you ever heard of the Pet Psychic?  I totally believe that lady is hearing thoughts from animals.  So, maybe you did too?  Try it when you are not on the pills.  I had a dog that I swear was my best friend...I talked to him just like I am to you and he understood.   He protected me when I needed it and I for him. (eh, abusive ex-hubby)  I think the more we interact with our "pets"  the more aware (more human) they get. :)   Now if I could only feel that connection with the two cats I have....*sigh*

Ok..I got off topic....ummmm..don't do drugs..and shrooms?  don't do them..did them ONCE and freaked out on wallpaper... dang thang came to life right in front of my eyes!! :shock:  And that is not a good thing when it comes to country style wallpaper..... all those chickens, ducks and wheelbarrows...... I was in hell.. :P

Nay

Selski

I agree 100%. I don't even try anything if I had something to drink no matter how small amount.

Quote from: NayOk..I got off topic....ummmm..don't do drugs..and shrooms?  don't do them..did them ONCE and freaked out on wallpaper... dang thang came to life right in front of my eyes!! :shock:  And that is not a good thing when it comes to country style wallpaper..... all those chickens, ducks and wheelbarrows...... I was in hell.. :P

Nay

Nay - that's hilarious - I love it!!!  Glad to see you back in the swing gal.  (I once spent 6 hours giggling on shrooms... (took far too many) - my jaw ached like hell the next day)   :wink:

PS  Love the pooch.

Sarah

Quote from: Selski

Quote from: NayOk..I got off topic....ummmm..don't do drugs..and shrooms?  don't do them..did them ONCE and freaked out on wallpaper... dang thang came to life right in front of my eyes!! :shock:  And that is not a good thing when it comes to country style wallpaper..... all those chickens, ducks and wheelbarrows...... I was in hell.. :P

Nay

Nay - that's hilarious - I love it!!!  Glad to see you back in the swing gal.  (I once spent 6 hours giggling on shrooms... (took far too many) - my jaw ached like hell the next day)   :wink:

PS  Love the pooch.

Sarah

LOL..that was the thing..   No one told me that I didn't need to eat two of them!!  I kept waiting and waiting for the effect to take hold......Oh, boy...those were the days..lol   Friends that gave you stuff for free and then failed to tell you the outcome..  :wink:   I did have a funny moment though, that I will never forget.  

My girlfriend was in on this retarded high with me.  We got a ride into Atlanta...and goodness the lights were grand..but then she started yelling..and I mean YELLING that the girl in the other care was on fire..:shock:   I look over and calmly mind you, say....."ummmm, she is smoking a cigg"  LOL..  She saw the smoke and honestly thought this chick was on fire!!  Funniest thing ever.....LOL...I still chuckle after twenty some odd years. :D

Nay

Drugs allow for a more subjective reality. Depending on the drug there are different levels of subjectivity, and different senses involved. I think, for example, Acid affects your visual senses, ie. hallucinations. It also affects your audio(so im told, never done it ;P) in the form of audio hallucinations. Much weaker drugs, like marijuana, offer barely any subjectivity, but it is still there in some forms.(Eating maybe? ;D)

Some people like this. Some people op for the more objective reality. Some are scared of the unkown. But it is not anyones right to tell anyone else what to and what not to put in there bodies.

Just my 2 sense.

Perhaps the correct metaphor in regard to entheogenic drugs is Mt. Everest, a helicopter and what happens when one gets suddenly  dumped on top on the said mountain.
Altitude sickness. Eh?

The point being, one can get there in many ways but some are less drastic tha others and the same more constructive.

One can get to the Titanic hugging an anchor and in a submarine. Choose.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Quote from: Nay

Quotemental telepathy with a chihuahua

Hehehe..that made me chuckle!   My mom has a chihuahua..I call it rat just to tick her off..:P  I'll add a photo of "Coco" dressed in her finest..

Anyhoo..  have you ever heard of the Pet Psychic?  I totally believe that lady is hearing thoughts from animals.  So, maybe you did too?  Try it when you are not on the pills.  I had a dog that I swear was my best friend...I talked to him just like I am to you and he understood.   He protected me when I needed it and I for him. (eh, abusive ex-hubby)  I think the more we interact with our "pets"  the more aware (more human) they get. :)   Now if I could only feel that connection with the two cats I have....*sigh*

Ok..I got off topic....ummmm..don't do drugs..and shrooms?  don't do them..did them ONCE and freaked out on wallpaper... dang thang came to life right in front of my eyes!! :shock:  And that is not a good thing when it comes to country style wallpaper..... all those chickens, ducks and wheelbarrows...... I was in hell.. :P

Nay

The dog is most beautiful looks like my sugar only she is white and yes I do understand her I am sure I know this dog from another life without a doubt but she usually lets me know what she wants with her body language hearing it out loud in my head freaked me out

I dont use drugs to meditate or astral or the brain wave entrainment either but I am considering getting a cd as my obe's are far and few between and its not always easy getting out but I do manage sometimes

I really wish you could send that pic of that dog to my email acct I am at work and cannot download and my pc at home has to go to the shop but I would love to use that pic for my wallpaper on my pc

if you look at my yahoo profile its femmstarr@yahoo.com you can look at my photo album and see my little chihuahua

I will admit I have some pictures from a gallery called nature is a freak so just letting you know mr and mrs carrot will be in there I hope you dont get offended at naughty nature pics lol they are too funny

I have heard of the pet psychic and I think she is real but it felt too freaky to me I just switched over to ibuprofen that is better for me

I thinnk dogs may astral too though as I think one time a long time ago I saw a dog while out

Quote from: Ben KDrugs allow for a more subjective reality. Depending on the drug there are different levels of subjectivity, and different senses involved. I think, for example, Acid affects your visual senses, ie. hallucinations. It also affects your audio(so im told, never done it ;P) in the form of audio hallucinations. Much weaker drugs, like marijuana, offer barely any subjectivity, but it is still there in some forms.(Eating maybe? ;D)

Some people like this. Some people op for the more objective reality. Some are scared of the unkown. But it is not anyones right to tell anyone else what to and what not to put in there bodies.

Just my 2 sense.

I agree with you on this if people want to say no to drugs they will and if not they wont and I consider it their business if they want to do them

I havent been using anything to help me astral and I have been working on doing it on purpose as opposed to just finding myself out sometimes

and I am getting there slowly but surely have made it out a few times in the last couple of months but my work got interrupted when I was in the hospital for almost a month so now I am having to start all over

that saying if you dont use it you will lose it is true in my case  :D

Quote from: jilolaPerhaps the correct metaphor in regard to entheogenic drugs is Mt. Everest, a helicopter and what happens when one gets suddenly  dumped on top on the said mountain.
Altitude sickness. Eh?

The point being, one can get there in many ways but some are less drastic tha others and the same more constructive.

One can get to the Titanic hugging an anchor and in a submarine. Choose.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

The fact of the matter is you cant. You say "Ah yes, drugs are only a shortcut" when in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs. Drugs are an experiance, and there "mystic" nature draws alot of people who simply are too rooted in there objective reality to want to experiance something like an acid trip. But im not going to preach to them, its there business.

If one is smart and can see drugs for what they really are, i believe its fine. The real danger is when someone say, thinks they become a shaman because they have crazy visuals when they trip on muhsrooms. Theres no enlightenment to be found in drugs. Only if you create it.

Well prolonged  usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions.  Many of the recreational drugs are potentially dangerous even in short use. Many also have what is called a "crash" phase, that is after temporary beneficial effects, there are rather unpleasent effects. So there is something inheretly not good about drugs.

To me, personally, it's like saying which poison is good for you, or if someone wants to ingest poison, should I stop them. At the end of the day I believe everyone should have the right to make their choices, and if that is their choice, then no one has a right to stop them, but every right to tell them why they think it is wrong.

QuoteYou say "Ah yes, drugs are only a shortcut" when in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs

Didn't say they are just] a short cut or a shortcut at all.
The bit about trying to reach the Titanic should've been the clue.

No worries though. I've with you in that I agree drugs will never (hardly ever at anyy rate)  yield any useable results. Just like freediving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Quote from: dataWell prolonged  usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions.  Many of the recreational drugs are potentially dangerous even in short use. Many also have what is called a "crash" phase, that is after temporary beneficial effects, there are rather unpleasent effects. So there is something inheretly not good about drugs.

No pain no gain ;)

But saying there is something inherently not good about drugs is saying there is something inherently not good about a knife. It all depends on the person. And most drugs are only dangerous when

1. You dont know what you are doing

2. You know the drugs is particularly harmful/habit forming but do it anyway(crack, etc)

Dependency is a funny word. If you mean you need the drug to create the normal chemicals the body would create anyway, then yes, that can be bad. But the brain will start to create these chemicals again after you stop taking the drug for awhile. If you mean you "need the drug to get through the day" type thing, eh i guess it depends on the situation.

It all comes down to moderation. Just like everything else in life. And as long as you know that drugs are not expanded awareness in a capsule or such youll be fine.

Quote from: Ben K

Quote from: dataWell prolonged  usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions.  Many of the recreational drugs are potentially dangerous even in short use. Many also have what is called a "crash" phase, that is after temporary beneficial effects, there are rather unpleasent effects. So there is something inheretly not good about drugs.

No pain no gain ;)

But saying there is something inherently not good about drugs is saying there is something inherently not good about a knife. It all depends on the person. And most drugs are only dangerous when

1. You dont know what you are doing

2. You know the drugs is particularly harmful/habit forming but do it anyway(crack, etc)

Dependency is a funny word. If you mean you need the drug to create the normal chemicals the body would create anyway, then yes, that can be bad. But the brain will start to create these chemicals again after you stop taking the drug for awhile. If you mean you "need the drug to get through the day" type thing, eh i guess it depends on the situation.

It all comes down to moderation. Just like everything else in life. And as long as you know that drugs are not expanded awareness in a capsule or such youll be fine.

QuoteDidn't say they are just] a short cut or a shortcut at all.
The bit about trying to reach the Titanic should've been the clue.

No worries though. I've with you in that I agree drugs will never (hardly ever at anyy rate) yield any useable results. Just like freediving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.

Haha, its all good. I dont mean just you necessarily, but alot of people attitudes are drugs are a "shortcut" or a "taste" of what you can achieve. While yes, what you can achieve through hard work and focus is 20x better than anything that can happen to you while you are on LSD, it is probably impossible to create the chemicals that lsd creates in your brain on your own.

And as for results from taking them, usually its just a good time!  8)

QuoteHaha, its all good. I dont mean just you necessarily, but alot of people attitudes are drugs are a "shortcut" or a "taste" of what you can achieve. While yes, what you can achieve through hard work and focus is 20x better than anything that can happen to you while you are on LSD, it is probably impossible to create the chemicals that lsd creates in your brain on your own

No worries. The thing I suspect you were hinting at is that one needs to bear in mind that drugs are more like a photograph of of the Sistine Chapel, not the thing itself. Thus it's a fallacy to expect any drug to do anything other than to give a glimpse of what can ge achived. The work still has to be done to reach it.

Fun, yes. A quick look at a (not the) goal, yes. A means to an end, yes. A solution, no. An escape, no.
And let's not even breach the subject of nonentheogenic drugs (or physiogenics as I like to call them.) Those are just bad bad news and no two ways about it.

User beware, eh?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

QuoteBut saying there is something inherently not good about drugs is saying there is something inherently not good about a knife. It all depends on the person. And most drugs are only dangerous when

1. You dont know what you are doing

2. You know the drugs is particularly harmful/habit forming but do it anyway(crack, etc)

Well, if you are arguing it all in intention of use, I think that is largely out of your control, because drugs are base on chemicals, that elicit physical  reactions in the body and mind. If you use any drug, particularly class A and class B, it will have harmful effects. Now, sometimes, those who don't experience side effects, may claim that this clears them of harmful effects, however we know that after a certain use or dosage, they do cause harmful effects in many. While, it may not seem obvious, because the effects are not manifest on the surface, it is likely there are subtle unconscious and physiological effects. Hence, why I say, they are inherently bad.

If tiny bad things are allowed to accumulate, they will eventually amount into something much bigger. This can be anything from bad cholestrol, drugs, alcohol, nicotine, drugs, stress, anger etc

Now in terms of the non physical effects, according to healers, in particular a NASA scientist who wrote the book "Hands of light" she reported how  there were certain  disfigurations in the aura of smokers and drug users. Now, even though I have no way to verify this, but as a general rule of thumb for me, everytime we circumvent nature and use substances that compromise our control over our mind, we are harming ourselves.  So I would not be surprised if drugs were actually harming the soul. Now, I needn't argue how harmful drugs are.  They are harmful.

Even drugs used in western medicine can be harmful. Drugs, in general, are harmful.

QuoteDependency is a funny word. If you mean you need the drug to create the normal chemicals the body would create anyway, then yes, that can be bad. But the brain will start to create these chemicals again after you stop taking the drug for awhile. If you mean you "need the drug to get through the day" type thing, eh i guess it depends on the situation.

Most drugs, even some legal medicinal drugs, can cause what is called psychological and/or physical dependence. Some people, may only have to take a drug once or twice, before they become addicted. It depends mostly on the drug being used.

QuoteIt all comes down to moderation. Just like everything else in life. And as long as you know that drugs are not expanded awareness in a capsule or such youll be fine.

It is not quite as simple. If I took poison in moderation, it's not quite the same as taking alcohol or nicotine in moderation.

Quote from: jilola

User beware, eh?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Buy the ticket, take the ride...

QuoteWell, if you are arguing it all in intention of use, I think that is largely out of your control, because drugs are base on chemicals, that elicit physical reactions in the body and mind. If you use any drug, particularly class A and class B, it will have harmful effects. Now, sometimes, those who don't experience side effects, may claim that this clears them of harmful effects, however we know that after a certain use or dosage, they do cause harmful effects in many. While, it may not seem obvious, because the effects are not manifest on the surface, it is likely there are subtle unconscious and physiological effects. Hence, why I say, they are inherently bad.

If tiny bad things are allowed to accumulate, they will eventually amount into something much bigger. This can be anything from bad cholestrol, drugs, alcohol, nicotine, drugs, stress, anger etc

how can you elicit a physical reaction in your non physical mind?

Yes, drugs do harm your physical body to an extent, i wasnt arguing that. But everything you put into your body is harmful to a certain extent. The only subtle unconsious and psychcological effects would be magnifying problems you already have. ie. if your depressed, it isnt going to help. And usually, problems dealing with drugs come from the person either obtaining them, or reacting badly to the drug.(There is a risk factor in everything you do in life.)

DXM is a cough suppresent that in high doses can make you trip. But is it inherently bad because of that?

moderation, moderation, moderation. with everything in life from sex to t.v. to food to religion to work etc etc..

;)

Quote from: Ben K

Quote from: jilola

User beware, eh?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Buy the ticket, take the ride...

Quote
moderation, moderation, moderation. with everything in life from sex to t.v. to food to religion to work etc etc..

;)

This is exactly my belief a beer with friends or a joint with the girls once in a while is not a problem  as your body can over come that but a gallon of alcohol in a day will leave permanent damage to your liver and smoking an ounce of pot a day will leave considerable damage to your lungs

all things in moderation

Quotehow can you elicit a physical reaction in your non physical mind?

A physical reaction is caused in your brain and body, and it affects your mind on a more subtle level.

QuoteYes, drugs do harm your physical body to an extent, i wasnt arguing that. But everything you put into your body is harmful to a certain extent. The only subtle unconsious and psychcological effects would be magnifying problems you already have. ie. if your depressed, it isnt going to help. And usually, problems dealing with drugs come from the person either obtaining them, or reacting badly to the drug.(There is a risk factor in everything you do in life.)

I think it is safe to say that certain drugs are bad for everyone. Sorry, my friend, but it's not all relative. If anyone takes heroin, no matter what their disposition or emotional state, they will report similar symptoms.

QuoteDXM is a cough suppresent that in high doses can make you trip. But is it inherently bad because of that?

We are not really talking about DXM are we? We are talking about recreational drugs, such as amphetamines and hallucinogens.
As for DXM, it may have seemingly beneficial effects, but as with all western medicine, there is always some negative effects as well, and because western medicine only treats all ailment at a physical level, rather than at a mind, body and spirit level, it never reaches the root of the problem. So, you can take a cough suppressant and the operative word there is "suppressant" but all it means is that your cough has been pushed down. It is akin to tidying your room up by throwing everything under the bed. Eventually, it will be back.

Quotemoderation, moderation, moderation. with everything in life from sex to t.v. to food to religion to work etc etc..

;)

I don't really disagree with this philosophy when applied to some things. However, it is clear enough this is not an all encompassing philosophy, as I attempted to point out to you by asking the question - can you take poison in moderation?

There are thousands of case studies done on drugs and their effects and we know that they are bad for us. Let us look at some of the recreational drugs:

Heroin:

QuoteAs heroin leaves the brain and body, users experience withdrawal symptoms (often described as feeling like a severe case of flu.) They include watery eyes, runny nose, yawning, loss of appetite, tremors, panic, chills, sweating, nausea, muscle cramps, and insomnia. Blood pressure, pulse, respiration, and temperature all elevate. People can overdose on heroin, which reduces the number of messages the brain sends to the chest muscles. The person's breathing slows, and, if the dose is high enough, stops. Heroin use during pregnancy is associated with low birth weight, stillbirths, placental abruptions, and sudden death syndrome. Babies of addicts are born dependent on the drug and must go through withdrawal as their first task in life.

Cocaine:

QuoteAddicts are preoccupied with getting their drug, and most of their thoughts and behaviors are directed to that end.
Cocaine interferes with judgment and produces exaggerated feelings of well-being and confidence. High doses can produce paranoia, and users can become aggressive and violent. In rare cases, cocaine can produce death, after first use or after prolonged use. Death occurs from cardiac arrest (the person's heart stops beating), or seizures

Marjuana:

QuoteMarijuana contains chemicals that act on the marijuana receptor in the brain. Scientists have recently identified the natural chemical, anandamide, designed to fit the marijuana receptor. While scientists do
not know all of the drug's effects, several studies have established that marijuana interferes with memory and learning. A new study confirms that heavy (daily) marijuana use impairs critical skills related to attention, memory and learning. In this study, "Heavy users could not pay attention to the material well enough to register the information in the first place so that it could be recalled and repeated later," say the researchers in the Journal of the American Medical Association (2/21/96).

These deficits persisted up to 24 hours after users stopped feeling high. Marijuana also impairs judgment and reaction time. Road tests for marijuana intoxication are not routinely done, but a special study in Memphis, Tennessee, showed that one-third of drivers stopped for reckless driving were high on marijuana. Another study revealed that of drivers involved in accidents who were treated at a trauma center, 15 percent had been smoking marijuana. Daily use of from 1 to 3 marijuana cigarettes appears to produce the same lung damage and cancer risk as smoking 5 times as many cigarettes. Finally, researchers have found for the first time that marijuana can cause withdrawal symptoms in laboratory animals, and that marijuana acts on the brain and nervous system as do other addictive drugs.

LSD:

QuoteLSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) is one of the major hallucinogenic drugs and one of the most potent mood-changing chemicals. LSD is sold on the street in tablets, capsules, or occasionally in liquid form. It is odorless, colorless and tasteless and is usually taken by mouth. Often it is added to absorbent paper, such as blotter paper, and divided into small squares with each square representing a dose.

Effects
Effects are unpredictable and depend on the amount taken, the user's personality, mood and expectations, and the surroundings in which the drug is used. Physical effects include higher body temperature, increased heart rate and blood pressure. Sensations and feelings change much more dramatically than the physical signs. The user may experience delusions and visual hallucinations which can cause panic. Users refer to acute negative reactions to LSD as "a bad trip." Many users experience flashbacks, a recurrence of certain aspects of a person's drug experience without the user having taken the drug again.

Ice:

QuotePhysical effects of ice include: heart palpitations, blurred vision, extended wakefulness, and damage to the brain, lungs and liver. Methamphetamine can interfere with vision, judgment, coordination, and reflexes, which may lead to automobile and other machinery accidents. Effects of the drug may last from 2 hours to 20 hours depending on how much is smoked. Behavioral effects include violence, hallucinations, depression and psychosis.

Exctasy:

QuoteEcstasy (MDMA) is a synthetic drug with both hallucinogenic and amphetamine-like properties. It is chemically similar to two other synthetic drugs, MDA and methamphetamine, which damage brain cells.
Effects

Many problems users encounter with Ecstasy are similar to those found with the use of amphetamines and cocaine. They include increases in heart rate and blood pressure, nausea, blurred vision, faintness, chills, sweating, and such psychological problems as confusion, depression, sleep problems, craving, severe anxiety, paranoia, and psychotic episodes. Ecstasy's chemical cousin, MDA, destroys cells that produce serotonin in the brain. These cells play a direct roll in regulating aggression, mood, sexual activity, sleep, and sensitivity to pain. A study in Lancet

(vol. 352, no. 9138) in October 1998 finds that Ecstasy destroys a structural component, the serotonin transporter, of serotonin neurons (brain cells) in humans. This work adds to earlier findings that Ecstasy can destroy up to 70 percent of serotonin neurons in laboratory

Inhalants

QuoteInhalants are legal products abused by those who sniff or inhale them for the purpos of getting high. Inhalants fall into three categories: volatile solvents such as glue, gasoline, aerosols; anesthetics such as nitrous oxide; and nitrites such as amyl and butyl nitrite.
Effects
Inhalants act on the brain and destroy the outer lining of nerve cells, making it impossible for those cells to communicate. Symptoms of use include dilated pupils, blisters or rash around the nose or mouth, chronic cough, nausea and headaches, disorientation, and a chemical odor on breath. After only six months of use, the brain, lungs, nerves, liver, kidneys and bones may be permanently damaged. More than 60 young people died from sniffing inhalants in 1993 in the United States.

Alcohol:

QuoteAlcohol acts on the brain and can produce addiction. Short-term effects: The more a person drinks in one sitting, the more pronounced short-term effects become. Small amounts (1-2 drinks) generally produce pleasant feelings. Larger
amounts produce depressant effects on the brain. Judgment, reaction time, speech and motor control are increasingly impaired with increasing amounts of alcohol. Drunk drivers kill about 23,000 Americans a year. Very large amounts of alcohol can cause death from overdose by reducing the number of messages the brain sends to the chest muscles that regulate breathing. The drinker stops breathing and dies. Long-term effects: Over time, alcohol can produce tolerance, physical dependence and addiction. Alcohol can cause many kinds of cancer and can permanently damage the brain. In severe cases, alcohol destroys the part of the brain where short-term memory occurs, making it impossible to learn anything new. Women should not drink during pregnancy. Fetal alcohol syndrome is the leading, preventable cause of mental retardation in the United States.

With regards to Alcohol, I will share a personal experience of mine, that destroyed a lot of my life. My father was an alcoholic, and he would come drunk home everynight and I had to witness this as a child. He would shout profanities, throw things about, and he would even be physically violent to us. I have seen the same effects in those who go out to pubs and clubs everytime. People become loud, abusive and act like infants. I have only drunk once in my life, while out in college, and I too found I was losing my sanity, even with few drinks. I've decided it was not for me.

Tabacco

QuoteTobacco contains nicotine, a drug that acts on the brain and rapidly produces addiction. Scientists estimate that 90 percent to 95 percent of tobacco users are addicted. Nicotine itself is toxic--high doses can kill, but do so rarely. Its most destructive property is its ability to addict users rapidly. Once addicted, smokers repeatedly expose their brains and bodies to hundreds of
toxic chemicals contained in tobacco and tobacco smoke. The list of cancers that tobacco causes is impressive, from cancers of the mouth, head and neck to cancers involving most of the vital organs. Smoking also causes heart disease, emphysema, and other lung diseases. Moreover, cigarette smoke can also harm nonsmokers. Children whose parents smoke suffer higher rates of bronchitis and other lung infections, and nonsmoking spouses of smokers have higher rates of lung cancer than those whose spouses do not smoke. Every year, tobacco kills more than 400,000 Americans. This is more deaths than all Americans killed in World War I, World War II, and the Korean and Vietnam wars combined. Every year the tobacco industry loses 2 million smokers; 80 percent quit, the rest die. The industry recruits teenagers to replace those losses.

Summary of effects with recreational drugs:

Blood pressure
Memory loss
Aggression and violence
Panic
Psychosis
Reduced cognition(as if it wasn't low enough already)
Confusion
Depression
Insomnia
Addiction
Severe anxiety/paranoia
Higher body temperature
Damage to brain cells and other parts of the brain and body

Sorry, but I don't see why it is good having any of the above in moderation. The way I see it, you're making a deal with the devil everytime you take one of these drugs; you sell your soul for a few sensations. Your soul is your consciousness, and I think it needn't be argued, that drugs do impair your consciousness and your mental faculties.

Now, the entire purpose of meditation, is to quieten the mind and gain control over your mind. Even, those who don't take drugs, have very noisy minds and loads of stress. Now, just think about those who take drugs, which only exacberates the little sense of self you have. Meditating, and then taking drugs, is like taking one step forward, and then ten steps back.

I wanted to touch on some of the  non physical or spiritual effects of drugs. Robert Bruce, pointed out in his book, that most people who he's surveyed who have had bad astral experiences, were also drug users. He offers a good explanation to dispel the myth that emptying your mind will make you susceptible to negative entities. That is that we are most susceptible to negative entities when our minds are most noisy, as any negative entity could just mask themselves in one of our thoughts, and we would think it is our own thoughts. Yet, when we empty quieten our minds, we become more aware of our thought processes, and are able to deal with negative thoughts. That explanation makes sense to me.

How do we know that right now, we don't have negative entities attempting to affect us? And, if right now we are already vulnerable, then it is only logical that we are more vulnerable, when we further compromise our control by using drugs. Suppose, instead of negative entities, negative thoughts of others were seeping through your mind, when we let our guard down with the use of drugs, and as our faculties of discrimination and coping mechanisms are now weakened, we are left vulnerable.

So, really, they're bad all around. So, no disrespect to you, but this is one thing that will affect you even in moderation. You may not be immediately aware of it, but be sure, it's affecting you.

Would I be right in assuming you are a drug user?

Hi:

The "problem" with drugs is they give people experiences they are not psychologically equipped to handle. I've said a number of times there is a humongeous difference between a drug-fuelled whacky experience and a controlled conscious-exit projection.

For example, focusing one's attention within Focus 4 of consciousness you see your whole physical life "as a concept". This changes you considerably, your whole attitude towards physical life is never the same after such an experience. I shudder to think what unbalancing effects this would have on a person if they had not received proper instruction about what to expect.

Fortunately, it would appear that drugs have a kind of self-limiting effect that prevents people from focusing within this area. From what I can gauge, they limit people to Focus 1 and Focus 2 of consciousness. Which is very fortunate I guess.

Yours,
Frank

All talk of "negative entities" behind, the fact of the matter is drugs do not effect your mind like you seem to believe. A physical chemical can not alter your non physical consiousness. Otherwise, drug problems carry over through your lives, and thats just not logical.(imo)

To answer your question, yes it is possible to take poison in moderation. You might need some tools and a microscope, but you can get a low enough dose where there will be barely any effects.

You give me that summary of effects but what you dont realize is that, like everything in life there is always a ratio of good to bad. The good effects out-weigh the bad ones for some people, others, like you, see drugs as hramful, bad, etc..

And as for negative entities, they cant really hurt you, so if you can just learn to deal with them and show them some love you will be fine. They wont be attracted to a mind full of "higher" (to use your terms ;) thoughts.

And so the only "problems" i can see with drugs are

1. Method of obtaining them

2. The effects could be too strong for you

3. You screw up and use something uncompatible with your body.

There might be more, but those are the major ones. (societies rules, cops, etc aside)

So, like a mountain climber can use gear to take away some of the risks of climbing a mountain, the risks in using drugs can be lessened by various methods(Researching what you are putting into your body, have someone sober on hand in case, etc)

But there is always risk, like everything in life, and it call comes down to personal preferance. At least it should, but most govts on this planet dont agree ;)

And yes, you would be correct in assuming that i am a drug user. Mostly psychodelics, about 3,4 times a month. But its fun, nothing more. Spiritual stuff is a whole different area of my life.

QuoteThe fact of the matter is you cant. You say "Ah yes, drugs are only a shortcut" when in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs. Drugs are an experiance, and there "mystic" nature draws alot of people who simply are too rooted in there objective reality to want to experiance something like an acid trip. But im not going to preach to them, its there business.

If one is smart and can see drugs for what they really are, i believe its fine. The real danger is when someone say, thinks they become a shaman because they have crazy visuals when they trip on muhsrooms. Theres no enlightenment to be found in drugs. Only if you create it.

I agree completely with this statement Ben K made.

Data,

QuoteWell prolonged usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions.

This is only true of some drugs. The health consequences are greatly exaggerated for the most common drugs. A cigarette is far worse for your health than pot or LSD. In fact, LSD has no long-term health effects for the vast majority of people (only excepted those who have undeveloped schizophrenia), and the short-term effects are things like a slightly increased heart rate. Unless you're an undeveloped schizo (meaning you'll be schizo later anyway), the worst thing that could happen from LSD is a bad trip. Don't be stupid and do it while you're in a bad mood or afraid of what will happen and you'll have no problem. Goes along with "know what you're doing" and don't be stupid. (I've never done any illegal drugs, just researched a few things about certain ones.)

QuoteNo worries though. I've with you in that I agree drugs will never (hardly ever at anyy rate) yield any useable results. Just like freediving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.

This is of course a matter of opinion, but I would like to point out that there are opposing views here. Mainly Timothy Leary comes to mind with his arguments in favor of (proper use of) psychedelics in Buddhist practice.

QuoteI think it is safe to say that certain drugs are bad for everyone. Sorry, my friend, but it's not all relative. If anyone takes heroin, no matter what their disposition or emotional state, they will report similar symptoms.

Same if everyone shoots themselves in the head, if you want to throw around some dramatic comparisons. But you can't throw all drugs into a big group called simply 'drugs' and call them all bad for you. Evaluate each one on an individual basis (and the list of quotes on the effects of the drugs isn't very straightforward, or at least tries to make piddly crap sound horrible).

You'll find things like LSD and shrooms aren't any harder on your body than a run around the gym (again, as long as you aren't stupid with them). Heroin and cocaine, etc., are completely different stories. You can die right off the bat from that excrement. That's why you can't generalize with illegal substances. There's a lot of variation.


So pretty much, some drugs are in fact very safe despite widespread propaganda against them. Just don't be careless with them. Know exactly what you're doing if you want to do anything and you'll be fine. Again, I've never used any illegal substances but I have looked into some of the effects of psychedelics and they tend to be extremely exaggerated. I see no reason why things like alcohol are legal while LSD is not... except for money, that is. ;)

QuoteAll talk of "negative entities" behind, the fact of the matter is drugs do not effect your mind like you seem to believe. A physical chemical can not alter your non physical consciousness. Otherwise, drug problems carry over through your lives, and thats just not logical.(imo)

The physical, mental and non physical are very closely related. Physical chemicals do affect your consciousness, and we know this, because they produce altered states of consciousness, they can even make you unconscious. So, yes they do affect your consciousness and it does carry through with you.

QuoteTo answer your question, yes it is possible to take poison in moderation. You might need some tools and a microscope, but you can get a low enough dose where there will be barely any effects.

:lol: Good answer, but it is not in moderation though is it? What you really mean it will barely produce any notictable effects. Yet, it will produce subtle effects, by killing your cells. Keep doing that, and it will eventually amount into something bigger.

QuoteYou give me that summary of effects but what you dont realize is that, like everything in life there is always a ratio of good to bad. The good effects out-weigh the bad ones for some people, others, like you, see drugs as hramful, bad, etc..

The summary I gave you was all bad. The only good you are talking about is sensations, and for those temporary moments of pleasure, you subject your mind, body and soul to something  much more damaging. The bad is outweighing the good here.

QuoteAnd as for negative entities, they cant really hurt you, so if you can just learn to deal with them and show them some love you will be fine. They wont be attracted to a mind full of "higher" (to use your terms thoughts.

Yeah, but how you will be able maintain "higher thoughts" when you impair your discriminatory and cognitive abilities? That is why you are susceptible to negative influences and entities. They can harm you much easily when you guard is down. Further, this business of "I will send them love, and it will be over" I recall Monroe's account of encountering two demons in the astral, that were clinging to him. He tried everything to get them off, light, love. None of it worked. He was literally screaming and crying for help.

Robert Bruce, said it quite clearly, that just one negative experience in the lower  astral, could ruin your life. He made it clear that most who had negative experiences were also drug users.


No leaf cover,

I am not sure about LSD. I will concede that the effects mentioned in the above studies were not particularly damaging. However, I do not find it good, that  this drug can cause reoccurring flashbacks, even after it has been discontinued. That suggests it has long lasting effects. I did some further research on LSD. For your consideration:

QuoteAre there long-term consequences to taking LSD?
Hallucinogens can cause extreme, long-lasting adverse neuropsychiatric effects, like flashbacks (post-hallucination perceptual disorders), relatively long-lasting psychoses, severe depression or shizophrenia-like syndromes, especially in heavy or long-term users or in people with an underlying mental illness. Some of the long-term problems associated with chronic or heavy LSD use are:
A person can experience rapidly changing feelings, immediately and long after use.
Chronic use may cause persistent problems, depression, violent behavior, anxiety or a distorted perception of time.
Large doses may cause convulsions, coma, heart/lung failure or ruptured blood vessels in the brain.
"Flashbacks" may occur long after use.

Source: http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/atod/od_lsd.htm

QuoteLSD users quickly develop a high degree of tolerance for the drug's effects: After repeated use, they need increasingly larger doses to produce similar effects. LSD use also produces tolerance for other hallucinogenic drugs such as psilocybin and mescaline, but not to drugs such as marijuana, amphetamines, and PCP, which do not act directly on the serotonin receptors affected by LSD. Tolerance for LSD is short-lived it is lost if the user stops taking the drug for several days. There is no evidence that LSD produces physical withdrawal symptoms when chronic use is stopped.

Two long-term effects persistent psychosis and hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD), more commonly referred to as "flashbacks"-have been associated with use of LSD. The causes of these effects, which in some users occur after a single experience with the drug, are not known.

Psychosis
The effects of LSD can be described as drug-induced psychosis-distortion or disorganization of a person's capacity to recognize reality, think rationally, or communicate with others. Some LSD users experience devastating psychological effects that persist after the trip has ended, producing a long-lasting psychotic-like state. LSD-induced persistent psychosis may include dramatic mood swings from mania to profound depression, vivid visual disturbances, and hallucinations. These effects may last for years and can affect people who have no history or other symptoms of psychological disorder.

QuoteHallucinations distort or transform shapes and movements, and they may give rise to a perception that time is moving very slowly or that the user's body is changing shape. On some trips, users experience sensations that are enjoyable and mentally stimulating and that produce a sense of heightened understanding. Bad trips, however, include terrifying thoughts and nightmarish feelings of anxiety and despair that include fears of insanity, death, or losing control.

QuoteLSD can (and does) cause severe psychological discomfort - even trauma. In fact, one bad trip can quickly make you forget dozens of "hearts and flowers" trips. When bad trips do occur, they tend to take two main forms: panic attacks and psychotic reactions.
Panic Attacks:
The most common adverse reaction to LSD, panic usually centers on a fear of dying or going crazy.
Psychotic Reactions: Serious breaks with reality, psychotic episodes usually include hallucinations and delusions. LSD fueled psychotic episodes are like bad trips that don't end when the drug wears off. These reactions may be linked to the "triggering" of preexisting problems and may require professional intervention - similar to PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.
Flashbacks: Another occasional effect of LSD are flashbacks. This is said to be the reemergence of effects -- usually panic -- days or weeks later. Since LSD is not retained in the body, (this is highly debated, btw, some say it does remain in fat cells), flashbacks are probably psychological rather than physiological in origin. Flashback triggers can include stress, severe fatigue, other drug use, or 'hints' associated with a past trip. Although acid flashbacks, like other anxiety reactions, seldom last longer than 90 minutes, they can seem endless and like a living hell, since they tend to focus on nasty aspects of bad trips. (I had one where everything I saw looked like a beating heart, it was quite frightening, it doesn't sound like it when I write this for some reason, but I can still visualize it.

Quote
Acid has very random and sometimes very frightening effects. Trips feed off a person's imagination. One person can spend 12 hours in a very happy place while someone else who's bought the same stuff can spend 12 hours lost in their own fears and paranoia.
How the trip goes has everything to do with who you are, how you're feeling and how comfortable you are with the people you are with.
A trip can speed up and slow down time.
Trips can speed up and slow down movement.
Colour, sound and objects can get distorted. Think dancing wallpaper, angry traffic cones and double vision.
Trips can make a happy person happier and a freaked out person more panicky and confused.
There is a flip side:
If panic sets in the experience can be scary and confusing.
Bad trips can be terrifying.
Flashbacks sometimes happen. This is when part of the trip is re-lived way after the trip was taken

Source: http://www.talktofrank.com/azofdrugs/L/LSD.aspx

I think from the above, LSD does not sound particularly bad or good. but it does seem to have very bad psychological side effects. What if you get a bad trip? Does anyone here have an experience with a bad trip?

Again, something that alters my consciousness, that I lose control over it, does not sound good at all. It's a bit like sleepwalking in the middle of a road amidst moving traffic or playing Russian roulette with my soul. Something not inherently good about that.

Here are some accounts of bad trips:

QuoteQ.
I did acid about 2 1/2 years ago. I had a bad trip to the point that I was drenched in sweat and my face was beak red and I was sweating so bad that sweat was running from my armpits all the way to my fingernails and just kept dripping down my fingertips like it was a waterfall. Now my everyday life has changed. Everything and everyone I look at I see clearly but I also see very light diluted black coloured lines run from where I look at, to the other side of the room. Could the bad trip and the acid cause acne? And could it cause me to have a bad memory and not to ever again be able to remember anything that well?
A.
Hi there!
The feelings and effects you describe can be pretty common when you experience a bad trip. They are considered short term and may also include the following:
ª paranoia
ª confusion
ª anxiety
ª hallucinations.

These usually cease [stop] when you stop using the drug. What you describe however seems to be longer lasting effects, which may or may not be related to the acid. You may want to keep an eye on these feelings and your overall mental well-being and think about speaking to a professional, such as a doctor or counsellor, in case there is a chance that you may experience some sort of psychosis.

A psychosis is a condition where a person experiences some loss of contact with reality. A person with a psychosis can experience any one or more of the following:
ª auditory hallucinations (hearing voices that aren't there)
ª visual hallucinations (seeing things which aren't there)
ª delusions (believing things which aren't true)
ª jumbled thoughts
ª strange behaviour.
Acid is a hallucinogen, and like all other hallucinogens, when you take it, you risk having a bad trip.
Bad trips involve strong feelings of anxiety or fear. The hallucinations can be unpleasant, or they can be so intense that you may feel you are losing control or going crazy.
The reasons for bad trips are not always known, but they are particularly common among first time users, or those who are already predisposed to feelings of anxiety, panic or paranoia (which sounds like it might include you).

Source:  http://www.somazone.com.au/content.asp?Document_ID=1082

Quote
A bad trip (on drugs)   
My wonderful, clever, sensible son, the last person you ever thought would turn to drugs, turned up unexpectedly at home last weekend in a terrible state. He says that he had a bad trip on LSD a few weeks ago and has been messed up ever since. He came home because he didn't know where else to turn.  I was amazed when he told me that everyone in his house this year (he is in his final year at university) regularly takes drugs, usually marijuana and often ecstasy, and he often joins in.  What can we do to help him get over this experience - is there any treatment for a bad trip? And what should he do to get through finals - we are worried that going back to his house (and to all the drugs) will be a disaster for his studies.   Amanda   

Dr Trisha Macnair responds   
   
I am sorry to hear about his experience but it is sadly quite a common one. Almost all young people are vulnerable to the lure of drugs - especially when they are immersed in a culture where they are widely used, no matter how sensible they seem.
LSD, or acid, affects some of the key sensory areas of the brain to cause distortion of sensory perception, changing the world into a weird and unfamiliar place full of surreal colours, sounds and sensations. There may be hallucinations and mystical experiences which may be pleasant, but equally these new experiences may be quite terrifying.
The nature of the trip is greatly influenced by how the person is feeling at the time. Loneliness, insecurity about friends or work, or worries about upcoming exams could all be greatly exaggerated, making the experience very unpleasant. Very occasionally the extreme panic and agitation of a 'bad trip' have lead to suicide, or to accidental deaths as users have tried to flee from their hallucinations.
The effects of a bad trip can last days and even weeks and months. I have one friend who has never managed to forget her experience more than 20 years ago. There may be <depression.shtml>, disorientation, anxiety and a feeling of overwhelming fear.
Flashbacks can occur
Flashbacks can occur long after the episode, which can be extremely upsetting, with strong feelings of fear and <panic_attacks.shtml>.
Sometimes acute mental illness is triggered by a bad trip, with psychotic or extreme depressive problems which can become a long term chronic problem. Very occasionally this has lead to suicide.
Working through the experience may help
There are no particular treatments for a bad trip, although if depression or anxiety are part of the problem then medication specifically for these may help. But your son may get a lot of benefit from working through the experience with someone used to dealing with this sort of problem. With time, the horror should subside to levels he can cope with. His GP should be able to help and may want to refer him to see a psychiatrist if necessary. Local drug counselling services may also be able to recommend someone, and may be able to help your son in general with his drug use.

Quotehad no idea where I was except that I was in a car, I was scared I thought I would either die or go insane forever. I remember one thought going through my head continuously 'I am the biggest lunatic alive. People will charge admission to see me. My parents will feel I am a disgrace and disown me. All because I know the meaning of it all but cannot explain it.' The strange thing about this thought was that I was not consciously thinking it and yet it was running through my head so clearly I could hear it. More here:  http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=2000

QuoteIm telling this story of my last experience on acid to warn other users (particularly new users) about the effects of this drug.

I was with my future boyfriend and our mutual best friend when i bought 2 tabs of acid off a guy who I had scored off before. He said they were double dipped and more potent. I looked at them and said 'what the hell.' I had only taken acid twice before and each time had only ingested half a tab, so my decision to take two was a BIG mistake. I swallowed them and then we went to this park we always went to and parked to listened to tunes in the car. After about half an hour I was starting to feel the effects and was feeling pretty good. Then my jerk-off friend (knowing Im phobic about spiders) ran his hands up my arm like a spider and told me that a big spider was racing up my arm. I screamed and started to cry hysterically. I jumped out of the car screaming and then I noticed a cop across the street giving a guy a ticket and that sent me further into the abyss. My friends put me back in the car and said we were going to go driving to get away from the cop and calm me down.

At this point I was out of my mind. I was fluctuating between hysterical crying and laughing. I could not control my emotions at all. As we were driving, the oncoming cars started to look very menacing. The grills became mouths with very sharp teeth and looked like they would eat me. We pulled over and I found a shard of glass and I refused to put it down believing it was somehow a link to reality. I was sure I was going insane. I was still crying and screaming and my boyfriend had to go to a guitar lesson and left me in the car with our friend. We were in the parking lot and he was talking to me trying to take my mind off my trip. For about 20 minutes it was working, but then his head turned into a big rat and I, again, lost it. For about 7 hours I was in that state of hysterics, sure I was dying or going to become insane.

When I finally did come down I was emotionally exhausted and my voice had blown out. I have never been so frightened before in my life and have not touched it since. I now suffer from a panic disorder. It causes long lasting panic attacks that mimic my trip in many ways. I, and my therapist, belive my acid trip caused this. Well, not caused but uncovered it. I wish every day that I had not taken that drug, as it was so traumatic that I now have this disorder and also other psychological symptoms that I did not have before my experience. I am not stating that LSD caused my problems in any way, just was the traumatic experience that unleashed a preexisting condition. However, my problem could have lied dormant and never surfaced at all if I had not indulged in this drug use.

QuoteI am presently aged 45, and took LSD at aged 16, during 1972. I can honestly say that the trip experience was so profound and real, that it has affected me ever since.

My parents were on holiday, and I tripped at home, with a work colleague, who was not a good friend, just somebody I knew. I thought LSD was going to be all flowers and pretty lights, etc., and was looking forward to the experience. We bought the black microdot tabs from a dealer that he knew, who warned us that the tabs were strong, and to make sure we were somewhere safe. On the way home on a bus, we dropped the tabs. We got home OK, and decided to go to a local shop. The time was around 5-6pm. After about half an hour, we started to feel a bit light headed, and giggly. We returned home, and sat in the front room, and put on some Deep Purple on the hi fi. I can remember moving my hands, and seeing the fingertips trailing behind, and the seeing the walls swaying. Also, sounds coming out of the hi fi speakers were in colour. Then, bang. I lost an hour or two here, my colleague said that I just wandered round and round in circles, in a trance state. I can vaguely remember seeing my mind on different planes and levels, shooting out into infinity.

I then came round, and noticed the guy with me staring at me in an all-knowing way. He had tripped before, and I began to get the AWFUL feeling that he had tricked me into taking the tab. As the time went on, I began to get paranoid, and started to realize that this trip was going to last for eternity, and, in fact, my whole life previous to this, was also part of the trip. I saw my parents sitting on the sofa laughing at me, "you've been conned again" on their faces. I looked at the guy with me, yes, I now realized I knew him, I'd always known him, for eternity, I was in a death trip now, I was sucked into a spiral, everything I looked at, I knew what was coming, DEJA VU on a massive scale. Fear is not a good description of the horror of this experience.

Several times in the trip, I became 'aware' and tried to tell myself, this is stupid, you are you, I repeated my name over and over. At one stage, I decided to go for a walk. It was dark, about 11pm. We caught a bus, God knows how. Walked round a town centre. It was raining. The rain hit my face and felt like acid burning holes. I looked at the guy with me, yes, his name, everything, he was the bastard that always tricks me into taking LSD, and I fall for it every time, for infinity -whoosh - away again down the deja vu spiral, horrendous sickening fear. At one stage in town, I looked at an EXIT sign. Yes, ex it, this is it, it is the trip, whoosh - away again. Managed to get home safely by walking home. We had left the front door unlocked, but got lucky. I then spent the next 2-3 hours battling with my sanity, as time and time again I suffered the realization, and gut-wrenching fear, that I had done this millions of times before, and could never escape it. I eventually came down at about 4 am, staring at a gas fire, in a state of shock.

The following days I wandered round in a daze, trying to come to terms with what had happened to me. I only took LSD one more time after that, a half a tab. To convince myself it was OK. It wasn't. I went to rock concert at a stadium, it was dark, I saw the EXIT signs, I was back on the same trip, panicked, left early, and went home, lay in bed in a state of fear.

The following year, I smoked some weed, became paranoid, and suddenly flash backed, I was still on the trip. I ran panicking, it's all I can do for a few seconds, then the feeling goes. I tried sniffing solvent, bang, whilst high, I got the same feeling, still on the trip, panicked and ran again. People look at me strange, I'm not surprised. The years went on. I married and had children, got a good job. Whilst at work, I had to go into a dark hall, with an illuminated exit sign, bang, - you've guessed it, I flash backed again, deja vu, the people with me are all part of the conspiracy. And it goes on. I've had about 7 or 8 flashbacks, some being as far as 8 years apart. The last one was last week. I was in a panicky situation involving my job, involving danger. I was dealing with something, when I had the realisation, deja vu feeling again, OH NO, is what I say. Christ, it's a nightmare.

So, during my life, Ive tried TM, Buddhism, Martial arts, various other spiritual paths, I'm lost, I'm searching for sanity, I honestly don't know, 29 years later, what is reality. When I die, I hope it's blackness and peace, and not part of a neverending trip, and I've got to suffer the experience again.

My advice to anybody reading this who hasn't tripped yet, DON'T.

QuoteI dropped 1 tab, basically had a very sketchy bad trip. The next morning I woke up and everything was a little flashy and i thought it would go away but it didn't.

I have had it for 8 months know and I often find myself trying to peer through the weirdness but i never can. I call it the 'CONFUSION' because it is very unpleasant especially at the age of 15. To tell the truth I really hate it and wish I could reverse to the day I took it and get ticked instead.

QuoteI will never forget my first and only experience with LSD. One night after work my ex-friend called me. He asked if I wanted to come over and go on a trip. I was very excited and I rushed over. When I got there my friends (we will call D.B. and J.K. were there along with a boy who I did not know. D.B. pulled out six hits of an acid called Dancing Condoms, it was a puzzle with little dancing condoms on it. It was me and the other boy's first time so we only took a half of a hit. I waited about 45 minutes and nothing was happening. I noticed that the other boy was acting very weird. I thought maybe the acid was fake so I took the rest of the dancing condom and 3/4 of a hit of white blotter.

A little later D.B. went to get some bud. When he got back we smoked 1 good sized bowl. About a minute after the bowl I was feeling very bonked up. At first I felt very high and started to laugh at evrything. D.B. and I went back to his room to get another bowl. I was sitting on his bed and I dazed off I had thoughts of life and death without even trying to think about it. Suddenly the whole room caved in on me and I came out of the daze. D.B. kept talking to me but I didn't even know where I was. I could not comprehend why I was this bonked up. I looked at the pot and all I saw was pine needles. I asked D.B. if that was what we smoked and he asked me what I was talking about. I looked again and It was regular marijuana.

We went in the living room and sat down. I kept dazing off and suddenly the room went dark ond colors of neon green and pink were everywhere. I felt like I was all alone and nobody else realy existed but they were all just images. I was looking at my arms and they turned into clay and crumbled to the ground. Everybodies hair was changing color and everyones faces were scrambling around. I was feeling very scared. D.B. took me in the other room and he kept yelling at me. He told that the demons were coming and I was going to go to hell. Suddenly I saw a flash of light and D.B. became a demond. The vains were popping out of his head and his eyes were dripping blood and hirns came out of his head. I started talking to J.K. and he calmed me down he told me it was from the acid and D.B. was just trying to scare me. In the middle of our talk his face formed into another demon and he was screaming at me. I was looking at the walls and it was covered with huge pentagrams. After a few hours of running through the house screaming I finally came down.

After that, ever time I smoked weed I saw designs on the walls. I started to trip one time after 2 gravity bong hits. The room was melting and I was extremely paranoid. If I didn't have a bad trip my first time I would probably do it again, but out of fear I will never take it again.

I think it is suffice to say, from all the above accounts from real people, that even a single bad trip can ruin your life, your mind and your soul. As I said, it's lot like playing Russian roulette with your soul.  I don't think that's good. There is indeed something inherently bad about drugs.

There seems to be many factors that affect your chances of getting bad trips, all that are uncontrollable:

1. Dormant psychological and emotional issues
2. External events during the trip
3. Any anxieties and worries that may arise just before or during the trip
4. Recent anxieties and experiences

It seems like anyone can have a bad trip, and once they do, it can change them forever. I would imagine, especially for someone whose been meditating for a long time, it would throw water on all their efforts and development.

I think the wisest think anyone can do, is say no to these drugs :)

QuoteHowever, I do not find it good, that this drug can cause reoccurring flashbacks, even after it has been discontinued. That suggests it has long lasting effects. I did some further research on LSD. For your consideration:

There are a few surveys out there (ie www.textfiles.com/drugs/lsd-surv.txt , more on Google) specifically aimed at the numbers of bad trips and (negative) flashbacks that show that they're relatively uncommon. 'Flashbacks' are usually reported as being triggered by experiences reminiscent of a trip and are only negative when there is still fear or association with a bad trip and therefore not really a separate problem from bad trips (when it's a problem at all).

Either way they can of course be avoided with some basic knowledge of what you're doing (which includes taking the right doses..) and not being in a bad mood, as LSD plays off you and your emotions majorly.

QuoteI think from the above, LSD does not sound particularly bad or good. but it does seem to have very bad psychological side effects. What if you get a bad trip? Does anyone here have an experience with a bad trip?

As I say, it feeds off of your emotions, not much unlike an astral trip from what I've read here. It's an individual responsibility. The way you're trying to make it sound much worse than it is doesn't do much to help the negative connotations already surrounding LSD much, either.

QuoteAgain, something that alters my consciousness, that I lose control over it, does not sound good at all. It's a bit like sleepwalking in the middle of a road amidst moving traffic or playing Russian roulette with my soul. Something not inherently good about that.

Well, if that's how you feel.. :wink:

QuoteI think it is suffice to say, from all the above accounts from real people, that even a single bad trip can ruin your life, your mind and your soul.

Yes, it could. If you're afraid of it or having doubts - just don't ever do it. :)

Quote1. Dormant psychological and emotional issues
2. External events during the trip
3. Any anxieties and worries that may arise just before or during the trip
4. Recent anxieties and experiences

This can very easily be simplified:

Being in, or put into, a bad mood, or having a latent mental disorder.

QuoteIt seems like anyone can have a bad trip, and once they do, it can change them forever. I would imagine, especially for someone whose been meditating for a long time, it would throw water on all their efforts and development.

Anyone can have a bad trip in the same way anyone can be hit by a car while walking across a road. Don't take the chance if it scares you, because LSD - unlike a bad driver - is dependent on how you feel.

I don't understand how water would necessarily be thrown onto meditation efforts, etc., either. Personally I don't take reality so seriously, or cling to any of my beliefs so strictly, that a single experience would so throw into question any of my experiences more than my own questioning already has. I don't know the absolute nature of reality nor particularly care to know at this point - because not only is it not relevant but for me it is also a headache and may not even exist. To suffice it to say that anything of what we experience now is not as real as we would like to believe anyway is enough for me, and so I don't put much faith into anything but logic, as temporary as it may be, and a nature striving for love. But I digress slightly..

QuoteI think the wisest think anyone can do, is say no to these drugs

And that's why you shouldn't take them. From my point of view, the wisest thing anyone can do (say), is let people do whatever the hell they want. At any rate LSD or similar chemicals are not that bad. I could make a case for sex having potential for being much more harmful if I wanted.

No Leaf Cover,

The servery you mentioned is not a proper survey. Do you know of a more professional one with a wider sample.

You can be hit by a car, but is that going to ruin your life? Take note of the 45 year old's account, he only took one shot LSD once at the age of 16, and has been suffering from flashbacks of his nightmarish experience since. I think that is very damaging, far more than a car accident.

I read on the site that archives all these bad trips, of people who have been taking LSD more than 30 times, and then suddenly had a bad experience, and it has changed their life completely around.

I can see why a bad trip can have this effect over you. If you consider for more than 12 hours you are experiencing your worst nightmares. Suppose, you were afraid of snakes, and while tripping, you came across a piece of rope on the floor, that looked like a snake due to the lighting. Suddenly, your mind recalls the association of snakes and your attitude of fear towards them, and as you have so little control over your subconscious process, the snake comes to life and slithers across the floor. You attempt to run away from the snake, and it follows you. You run around your house for ours, you scream, yell, moan. The snake multiplies into more snakes, suddenly the entire room is full of snakes. You scream for your life. You just want to get the hell out. Suddenly, the worst of your fears come true, the snakes start to jump at you, you fall on the ground, and snakes start to eat away at your body alive and enter your throat, you are gasping and choking, you can no longer scream, slowly you see your body erode away.

Now, if you had to experience the above for 12 hours, it does not matter if you know it was a trip or not, all the feelings and memories are real, and they will remain with you for the rest of your life. No wonder why bad experiences ruin peoples lives. Why does anyone want to subject themselves to something like that?

As I outlined before, the factors are uncontrollable. You could easily evoke a suppressed memory through any kind of association. As you don't have any control over your mind. Literally, anything can happen.

At the end of the day, even after reading experiences of people whose lives have been ruined from drugs,  you still think drugs are okay, then I can only say best of luck. I've heard many say "it won't happen to me" but it sometimes does.

Otherwise, I think it is quite clear, drugs are bad for you Yes, even legal medicinal drugs as runlola points out. I know many people who are on medical drugs, who experience all kinds of side effects and are fed up of them. I prefer going the natural way myself.

Again, your missing the point lol. Anything you put into your body is "bad" for you. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE MODERATION.

MODERATION

And yes, a bad trip can be bad, but its just that, a trip. If you let something that happened to you while on a conscious-alterting substance effect you to the point where it is a week after the incident and you are still shaking in fear, you have much worse problems than drugs.

And, once again, a person with positive thoughts, who is healthy, and has no hidden psychological "disorders" will not have a bad trip. It just further reinforces the fact that WE CREATE OUR REALITY! If you go into the trip thinking about demons, guess whats going to happen.

So data: if you feel a bad trip can ruin your life, IT WILL!

Quote1. Dormant psychological and emotional issues
2. External events during the trip
3. Any anxieties and worries that may arise just before or during the trip
4. Recent anxieties and experiences

If you have never done a psychadelic, i would really refrain from this conversation.

The only real uncontrolable risk i see there is 1.3 and 4 are the same, since when is "just before or during the trip" not recent, lol.

You can control external events to a huge extent. Its called staying home, lol. If you mean things like you jumping off the roof, or stabbing someone on accident, these risks are there during everday life as well. And like in life, anxiety can only control you as long as you let it.

QuoteThe servery you mentioned is not a proper survey. Do you know of a more professional one with a wider sample.

Not off hand. Unfortunately it's probably the best survey either one of us have to go off of, if you want to use any such data at all. It's much more professional and has a much wider sample than the far-from-usual stories you chose to share with us. Hell, you even made up an especially bad story for us to read!

QuoteYou can be hit by a car, but is that going to ruin your life?

lol. There's a much higher chance of it ruining your life than a bad LSD trip would ever have. ;)

And dude, you're having some extreme problems fairly assessing information if you think a bad LSD trip could be far worse than a car accident could be. You can browse photographs (from www.rotten.com among others) of people that've been in automobile accidents with their brains scattered all over the road from a missing chunk of skull over their forehead. That's pretty life-changing right there as far as I'm concerned.

QuoteI read on the site that archives all these bad trips, of people who have been taking LSD more than 30 times, and then suddenly had a bad experience, and it has changed their life completely around.

And again, that's a reason as to why you should never do it.

- - Insert gruesome fairy tale here - -

QuoteI can see why a bad trip can have this effect over you. If you consider for more than 12 hours you are experiencing your worst nightmares. Suppose, you were afraid of snakes, and while tripping, you came across a piece of rope on the floor, that looked like a snake due to the lighting. Suddenly, your mind recalls the association of snakes and your attitude of fear towards them, and as you have so little control over your subconscious process, the snake comes to life and slithers across the floor. You attempt to run away from the snake, and it follows you. You run around your house for ours, you scream, yell, moan. The snake multiplies into more snakes, suddenly the entire room is full of snakes. You scream for your life. You just want to get the hell out. Suddenly, the worst of your fears come true, the snakes start to jump at you, you fall on the ground, and snakes start to eat away at your body alive and enter your throat, you are gasping and choking, you can no longer scream, slowly you see your body erode away.

If you imagine that happening, then guess what: that's likely exactly what's going to happen! I can see exactly why you are so dead set on making all drugs out to be the absolute devil when you have such images on your mind.

Btw, LSD trips are not usually 12 hours long, though I can see why you would of course use that figure in your fictitious story.

Anyway, nice attempt at scaring me, I guess, but unfortunately I don't go for the whole fear thing. It rather annoys me greatly, seeing as how so many people are scared into not thinking straight in the face of concepts like Hell or events like 9/11 (or that all drugs are bad in this case).

Elementary psychology/sociology, and I'm sure you pulled that out of your behind for that very reason. I'm not really even amused by the fairy tale itself, but just that you tried to pull that one on me. I find it extremely manipulative and disrespectful.

QuoteAs I outlined before, the factors are uncontrollable.

This isn't true. Only latent mental disorders are uncontrollable. Bad trips are not random and are not like a bad lottery. They result from bad moods. To solve this extremely challenging obstacle (...), simply don't take LSD when you're in a bad mood!

QuoteOtherwise, I think it is quite clear, drugs are bad for you Yes, even legal medicinal drugs as runlola points out. I know many people who are on medical drugs, who experience all kinds of side effects and are fed up of them. I prefer going the natural way myself.

Then have at it! I suppose you also eat only the safest, unadultered fruits and vegetables and refrain from any US beef, pork, chicken, unpurified water, or any products containing any of those as ingredients because otherwise you are constantly consuming unnatural and harmful chemicals every single day. In today's world that's hardly avoidable and yet the practical common consequences seem very minute and yet comparable to the practical common consequences of LSD usage. There are of course unusual cases, but yours are hardly the norm or else the drug obviously would not be as immensely popular as it is.

You have to admit, it's pretty obvious how little damage LSD actually does when an anti-drug zealot such as yourself resorts to submitting a morbid fantasy and saying 'this could happen to you!'.

QuoteThe only real uncontrolable risk i see there is 1.3 and 4 are the same, since when is "just before or during the trip" not recent, lol.

I don't think data is out for an accurate assessment, Ben K. He's simply trying to push his points regardless.

He tends to do that ;)

Its ok though. To each his own I say.

Well, I am realize I am debating with drug users here, so I can understand why you would viciously defend your position. I just wanted to clarify for something, the drugs you are defending are illegal. If you are caught in possesion of them, you could get 7 years in jail. You are commiting a crime everytime you possess drugs.

So someone in authority, that in turn depends on an assessment of the drugs by scientific bodies, has good reason to believe these drugs should be illegal.

Now, the case for why these drugs are bad for you, is clear enough. This is not some conspiracy to deny you drugs, and if you think so, it's probably the effects of the drugs ;)

QuoteSo someone in authority, that in turn depends on an assessment of the drugs by scientific bodies, has good reason to believe these drugs should be illegal.

The same people who passed the patriot act? The same people that invaded not one, but two countries in a matter of 3 years? Sorry Im not too big on those people right now. I would rather my life be run by me, not some suits on capitol hill.

I would suggest, once again, that you go out there and do your own research. Do you seriously think drugs are illegal because the U.S. government thinks they are dangerous? Why do you think they care what you put into your body. Go down to your local pharmacy. all those drugs in that store are more dangerous than anything you can get out of the ground. Alcohol, for instance is 20x worse for you(mentally and physically) than marijuana. Why is alcohol legal? You said yourself that your father was an alcoholic. Where was your government then? Another example, morning glory seeds. Here in the U.S you can go to your local wal-mart, pick up 5 packs of morning glory seeds, eat them, and it has basically the same EXACT effect as LSD. So why are seeds legal? There are countless more examples, but i can assure you, no governments care about you. You are a number.

If you really want to get into a debate on the dangers of drug using and why they are illegal, read up a bit and maybe get some experiance before coming in here and blabbing what you read in some book or saw on T.V.

No Leaf Cover,

You are being paranoid(effects of drugs?, j/k) I am not trying to scare you, and I am not an anti drug zealot. I am simply someone who doesn't support drugs. That is just my opinion on it, and it also happens to be the professional opinion as well.

The hypothetical was simply to outline to you how a bad trip can easily be precipitated, depending on associations. Most of us are afraid of snakes, and if during a trip, the subconscious mind creates a snake, we may feel fear, and just that trigger alone, could turn an otherwise positive experience into a negative one.

As I said such factors like these are uncontrollable, and if you read all the accounts I quoted above, you will see what I am saying is indeed true. The problem it is very random. You have little to no conscious control in a trip. Anything can happen, and if a particularly bad trip happens and endures for hours, that trauma will remain with you for a long time. D

Finally, yes I do eat fruit and vegetable and drink water, and I am completely vegetarian, because I respect the sanctity of life. Don't try and tell me this is a bad thing. This is all oxygenated food and is nourished by the sun. I believe water has life force, because when I actually drink water, I feel like I have been rejuvenated. I feel as if my entire body has come alive. I am very proud of being natural, thank you very much.

And I am very conscious of what I put in me, and respect my mind and body.


Ben K, they're illegal in most countries, enough said.

QuoteWell, I am realize I am debating with drug users here, so I can understand why you would viciously defend your position.

I've never done any illegal substances. That includes LSD.

But, I don't give two craps for the law except to avoid being arrested. I really don't recall ever giving them permission to govern me anyway, but I suppose that's the corruption of society.

QuoteYou are being paranoid(effects of drugs?, j/k) I am not trying to scare you, and I am not an anti drug zealot. I am simply someone who doesn't support drugs. That is just my opinion on it, and it also happens to be the professional opinion as well.

That's all fine if you don't like the effects of certain drugs on your body and don't want to do them, of course. You were, however, unproportionately representing the potential of negative experiences from LSD. This is no doubt because of your strong personal opinion, which you're of course entitled to, but it doesn't make for a fair assessment or argument.

I don't do these things either, but I don't have any urges to push my personal views on others. Opinions are just that - opinions.

QuoteFinally, yes I do eat fruit and vegetable and drink water, and I am completely vegetarian, because I respect the sanctity of life. Don't try and tell me this is a bad thing. This is all oxygenated food and is nourished by the sun. I believe water has life force, because when I actually drink water, I feel like I have been rejuvenated. I feel as if my entire body has come alive. I am very proud of being natural, thank you very much.

That's very good! Now all you have to do is filter the air that you breathe and find a way to avoid all the radiation leaking from various devices all over the country. My point is that we can cut down on the harmful things that our bodies endure to keep them in good shape, but minor wear and tear is a part of life, especially in today's world. It's something we face every day.

Runlola,

Quoteuh, yeah, I do. First, unless you tried all of these drugs you shouldn't talk about it because..you really don't know what you are talking about. I am not allowed to glorify drugs according to Nay, so I can't go into why it might be a good thing. It's not so bad to try, it's when you become a user that can never stop. Even a moderate user that can never stop. If you don't think you can walk away from it, don't try it. Don't even try smoking.

My comment was directed towards data. LSD, among other hallucinogenic drugs, is not addictive. If its use cannot be stopped, it's simply because the user is unwilling to stop. Stopping regular use of LSD does not cause any sort of withdrawal problems.

QuoteAs I said such factors like these are uncontrollable, and if you read all the accounts I quoted above, you will see what I am saying is indeed true. The problem it is very random. You have little to no conscious control in a trip. Anything can happen, and if a particularly bad trip happens and endures for hours, that trauma will remain with you for a long time. D

Utter bs. If you have ever tripped on any drug you would know this. You always have control. There is a difference between Control and the Illusion Of Control. Iam sorry, but really, if you arent a dumbass you should be fine.

QuoteBen K, they're illegal in most countries, enough said.

What does that "say"? You didnt answer any of my questions. Truth is, you look at countries like Denmark and you see what society would be like if uptight a-holes didnt try to shove there views down anyones mouths.

Does any of your opinion have any basis in experiance? I mean no offense, but it seems you come here and, instead of questioning your own beliefs, try to fit them into this little frame of yogaism. The truth is theres alot more out there. A person doesnt need to read eastern philosophy to be "enlightened". Its a very easy process if you just go with it.

With regards to snakes, when you are on a trip, it just doesnt work that way. First of all, not everyone even hallucinates. Second of all, you cant consciously "trigger" any hallucination just like you cant trigger an obe. It just happens. And usually, unless you are uptight going INTO the trip, the visuals will be much more fun(walls melting, things bending, etc.) Why would you even want to think of snakes? Your mind is in such an altered state that if you havent been there its hard to talk about. Sort of like when you AP, your fears materialize. You can just laugh at them. Fear shouldnt be a factor in anything, especially something thats meant to be "fun" like APing, tripping, etc.

But like i said, most people with half a brain would trip fine, and again, i dont think its fair for someone whos never even been in one of these states to argue over there use.

Quoteah... but once you use LSD it stays forever in your spinal fluid.

Thats a myth, same with it damaging chromosones.

Quote...Similarly, myths regarding the retention of LSD in the brain stem and spinal fluid are completely false as well.

http://www.streetdrugtruth.com/drugs/lsd.php4

I've heard the exact same thing from friends, though. I guess it's just a popular myth. :/

QuoteEven if LSD did find its way into your spinal fluid (which it does not) it would simply be flushed away. NASA cannot test you for lifetime LSD use by taking a spinal tap, so even if you have at some point used LSD, you may still be able to get a job as an astronaut if you are properly qualified (yet another myth hopefully dispelled).

It's on that same link.

http://www.streetdrugtruth.com/drugs/lsd.php4


LSD is expensive to test for, and drug tests don't usually cover LSD probably for that very reason.

i was thinking about posting something along these line, and figured i'd add it in on the end of this post...since all this has my panties in a "slight" twist. where to start?!?
 

Quotewhen in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs.

that made me "actually" LOL!!! and it's too true. i guess that would place BenK , no_leaf_clover,and I on the same team (sad there has to be sides...always).

QuoteWell prolonged usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions. Many of the recreational drugs are potentially dangerous even in short use. Many also have what is called a "crash" phase, that is after temporary beneficial effects, there are rather unpleasant effects. So there is something inherently not good about drugs.

...i'm not going to bother arguing that point of view. the general population should NOT take drugs, bcuz they're too messed up, basically too "IRRESPONSIBLE", and in need of escapes. we've all heard the saying that "guns don't kill people...people do". well, DRUGS DON'T CREATE DEPENDENCY...PEOPLE DO.

I REALLY don't want to push buttons, but some of you guys make it so inviting...i can't help myself.  

Quotedrugs will never (hardly ever at any rate) yield any usable results. Just like free diving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.

...tell that to Vincent Van Gogh, Edgar Allen Poe, Alister Crowley, Da Vinci, Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman,  Degas, Toulouse-Lautrec, Gauguin, Picasso, Andrew Jackson,Teddy Roosevelt, Ernest Hemingway, Jack London (not to mention the more current artists), and almost every GREAT mind in history!!! (of course very few people a have a true appreciation for sheer genius these days, but i'll add that the Olsin Twins, Eminem, and Sponge Bob Square Pants...all definite drug users!) P.S. submarine or freediving? aren't we forgetting the simple and efficient astral travel?!? This duality must end guys...if we're ever going to get out of the box.

Quoteit is probably impossible to create the chemicals that LSD creates in your brain on your own.

WE ARE ALL CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS. and yes...you ABSOLUTELY have everything within you to create LSD, DMT, DXM, and every other drug known to man...right inside your very own body. amazing!

QuoteWe are not really talking about DXM are we? We are talking about recreational drugs

...to some people DXM is a recreational drug, as is silver spray paint, rubber cement, and glade air freshner. lets not split hairs.

Quote
Blood pressure
Memory loss
Aggression and violence
Panic
Psychosis
Reduced cognition(as if it wasn't low enough already)
Confusion
Depression
Insomnia
Addiction
Severe anxiety/paranoia
Higher body temperature
Damage to brain cells and other parts of the brain and body

those are the same symptoms as everyday stress.

QuoteThe "problem" with drugs is they give people experiences they are not psychologically equipped to handle

ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!

QuoteThe survey you mentioned is not a proper survey. Do you know of a more professional one with a wider sample.

you cannot trust ANY survey...there is always a directive.

QuoteSo someone in authority, that in turn depends on an assessment of the drugs by scientific bodies, has good reason to believe these drugs should be illegal.

you wouldn't believe me if i told who pushes the MOST/WORST/MOST ADDICTIVE drugs in the country!?!

whew! this might garner more posts than that "how to pick up a chick" thread! :wink: i'm not opposed to much of anything (expect child molesting, and male beastiality (female bestiality=pretty much ok with). generally i'd have to say that doing anything AGAINST someone elses WILL is BAD...maybe even EVIL?!? drugs definitely don't fit in here, unless your shoving a needle in someones arm, or using that date-rape drug. yes i use drugs. YES I'VE HAD A FEW BAD TRIPS (one that changed my life forever). funny thing is it wasn't the drugs. i've staved off a good while to get my head together, bcuz drugs for me tend to work as a magnifier of my reality/headspace. if i smoke pot and get "off" effects. i know that something is wrong in my waking life...i'm not working up to par, or i'm doing something against my nature, etc. if i smoke and enjoy it...i know everything is ok. i personally wouldn't prescribe the home lab s**t, but that's just me. there will come a point in time (which i am working towards) when i will take some BIGGER steps into the unknown. the fantasy involves a shaman, a jungle, and some major plants, but i'm unqualified to say any more. there will come a time when i'll have to meet those monsters again, if i'm ever going to break free/break out the other side. i will NOT do this without someone extremely PROFESSIONAL, and that isn't some dork in a white lab coat...that's some toothless wonder with a bone through their nose, and moss loincloth.

DATA STICK WITH YOUR CONVICTIONS & NEVER, EVER, EVER, TRY IT!!!
i know that a lot of my reply seemed directed at you, and that was not my intention. i complete RESPECT your perspective (and others) and where you are right now and where you may go. i sympathize with your childhood experiences...i suffered a lot of abuse as child as well. strange thing was my parents were hippies (i smoked my first joint when i was six) and everything seemed fun and easy and creative...till they stopped being hippies and feel back into the s**t...but that's not applicable here.

BENK...HAVE YOU TRIED ABSINTHE? I'VE BEEN VERY INTERESTED IN IT OF LATE...LOT OF THINGS POINTING ME IN THAT DIRECTION. THINKING ABOUT MAKING UP A BATCH. PERSONALLY I LIKE CHARTREUSE, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF YOU HAD ANY TALES ABOUT THAT OR POPPY SEED TEA (SEEMS TO BE A BIG TREND OUT WEST). ANTIQUE DRUGS?!?   :wink:

I THINK YOU AND I ARE THE ONLY ONES POSTING THAT HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH A VARIETY OF HALLUCINOGENS...WOULD LIKE TO HEAR MORE OF THE "TRIPS" AND LESS OF THE "DEBATE"
(if possible) :roll:

sincerely y'alls BIG SISTER
333

p.s. i've mentioned this in another post, but...KEEP IT NATURAL! GROW OR WILDCRAFT YOUR OWN HERBS/PLANTS (drugs)...DO NOT TRUST ANYONE!!! (THIS IS FROM EXPERIENCE...TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE). AND NEVER, EVER, EVER DO DRUGS WITH A BUNCH OF STUPID YAHOOS, OR STRANGERS! ONLY WITH PEOPLE YOU LOVE AND TRUST THAT ARE ON THE SAME WAVE LENGTH...........................YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED :shock:

My friend who swears he never dreams, recently pulled a muscle and was prescribed ibuprofen 400mg. Now he says he has 12 to 14 very vivid and detailed dreams nightly and remembers them. By chance I had a coffee with our mutual doctor & mentioned this. He said this is a very common side effect of this muscle relaxant. This can be bought over the counter.

QuoteI REALLY don't want to push buttons, but some of you guys make it so inviting...i can't help myself.
Quote:
drugs will never (hardly ever at any rate) yield any usable results. Just like free diving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.
...tell that to Vincent Van Gogh, Edgar Allen Poe, Alister Crowley, Da Vinci, Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, Degas, Toulouse-Lautrec, Gauguin, Picasso, Andrew Jackson,Teddy Roosevelt, Ernest Hemingway, Jack London (not to mention the more current artists), and almost every GREAT mind in history!!! (of course very few people a have a true appreciation for sheer genius these days, but i'll add that the Olsin Twins, Eminem, and Sponge Bob Square Pants...all definite drug users!) P.S. submarine or freediving? aren't we forgetting the simple and efficient astral travel?!? This duality must end guys...if we're ever going to get out of the box.

So you are saying they were geniuses as a result of using drugs? Or they were already geniuses who chose to use drugs? There's a diffference.

What you failed to pick up from my post, especially the freediving analogy, is that it referred to the idea people have that drugs will result in instantaneous spiritual gain and thus fall into using them for all the wrong reasons.
I have no trouble accepting people using any substance they care of use andd given a chance and the proper circumstances I'd probably join some of them.

But you did push oine button: Olsen Twins and Spongebob are geniuses? Who'dve'thunk!


2cents & L&L
Jouni

Babar started a thread

QuoteHas anybody tried using drugs as a means to attain the experiense like: ie Nitrous Oxide, dmt, Ketamine etc etc?

Good question, although the with hindsight it probably should have concluded with "how are the effects different when taking drugs vs. not taking drugs...then it would have left less room for speculation.

Minus BenK and myself...6 pages have been written by those who are NOT drug user's...(stating mostly the drastic downfalls, the poisonous attributes, and oh-so-typically winding up on the point  of illegality. (we all know these things)(we all know so damn much about everything...don't we). And may it be understood that I have a problem...not with any individuals right to live in whatever mindset they choose, nor to contemplate the things or worlds outside...but to ignorantly (sorry there is no other word) draw boxes around other people, and force that their (conditioned) view point, supported by the majority of "decent/upstanding/functional/law-abiding" citizens it the ONLY CORRECT function....but on to the free-diving issue...

What does the Titanic represent? A legend? A piece of our history that sleeps in the quiet depths of the ocean...longing to be discovered? What does the ocean represent? A world outside our normal function? A mystic playground full of unimaginable things? Something we are ultimately connected to that is as familiar as home? Astral Pulse would then be a place for those who have on summer vacation (in between important things of life) frolicked in it's refreshing, wet, and conductive glory. Is it not also a place for those that have ventured out further, and those who have yet to venture? Is there no space for the stories and experiences of those that HAVE BEEN THERE, and survived?!? I JUST HATE IT (AND I TRY NOT TO HATE ANYTHING). I CAN'T STAND DUALITY!!! I can't help myself when it ALWAYS has to be one side or the other. Drugs are okay/Drugs are evil. Submarine or free-dive...republican or democrat...teachers pet or drop out...fun loving whore, or frigid b*tch?
Oh, all the s**t that is MISSED in the middle!!!

Everything that society has taught us does NOTHING but WEAKEN us! Can't anyone SEE that??? So weak we feel ourselves to be that even someones point of view that does not conform with our own, must be smashed, and any light that might by chance lead us astray...must be immediately snuffed out. So weak that we fear a cigarette might kill us, a drink might bind us to the devil, a prostitute might deflower or purity, an insane freak might contaminate us somehow. There are still people in this world that believe that black people carry diseases that are contagious. Don't think that your beliefs are far from that mentality.

I was a vegetarian for ten years, and I mention this bcuz of some of the earlier posts where I caught an inkling of selfrightouseness in this area. It was a personal choice and path to explore for whatever reasons...but daily I was attacked for my beliefs (which at the time were strong and emotional)...It was bizarre how I felt people were waiting to POUNCE at every corner. On top of that I felt a need to constantly refine my direction...till I drove myself nuts over it. From vegetarian, to vegan, to raw-foodist...and the world that surrounded me appeared more vile and unhealthy then ever...the air, the water, the people. I went down that path as far as I could and things around me just got harder to deal with...bcuz I am an Empath...so...ultimately it can never be just about me. The things that are most miraculous about us as (and around us) have nothing to do with what we think. Every function from blinking to heart-beat, from breathing to digestion...happens on it's own. (even putting one foot down in front of the other)...
For some reason we put so much stock in our heads, in the conclusion of who we "think we are" and "what we SHOULD be doing", but who we think we are (in general) is a sad thing that has been force-fed, and what we think we should be doing is even further from the truth...and here we are stuck...and here we shall remain. Drugs are not the ANSWER, but unconventionally throughout time, they do/have offer/ed a glimpse outside the box.

Again I am cornered by a question with the pre-requisite of two answers.

QuoteSo you are saying they were geniuses as a result of using drugs? Or they were already geniuses who chose to use drugs? There's a difference.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh (long, exhausted sigh).

They're just genius! We are all genius! Tap into it however you want. There is however a massive structure that works against you...know this!
Everything established in this world is constructed to KEEP YOU FROM THAT GENIUS!!! KEEP YOU WEAK & WANTING! All of them are built with extreme subtlety. Some of these geniuses even helped (unknowingly) to pave the way.

Brilliance...some people wear sun glasses to cut down on the light, some people eat trash to keep themselves filtered from the energy, some people take "legitimate" drugs to try and keep themselves grounded, but we are all slipping off into the cosmos and no anchor is strong enough to hold us down. soon you will not need to take drugs to experience the most mind-bending trip you could ever imagine...i promise you that!

and this website and everyone's opinions will have never existed.

BenK what is your reason for drawing a line between poppy seeds and morning glory seeds? I'm not surprised you didn't like the DXM, when you think about the trip it took before it got to you...I can't see where it would be anywhere near pleasant.  There's a huge difference between smoking pot that's grown outside in the wonder of natural elements, and pot that's grown in a closet under artificial light with thrash music blaring 24-7. This knowledge is an important factor to anyone that's traveling the magic path of plants/chemicals.

No one around with any shrum experience? Just curious...

thanks to no_leaf_clover for the welcoming
:wink:

the Olsin twins, Eminem & Sponge Bob reference was to lighten the mood, and also as a bit of slight since I am assuming (i know...) that I am out numbered by a younger mentality here. I never implied they were genius, but...why the hell not?!?  

and I can't believe I forget my most favorite drug addict of all
LEWIS CARROLL!!! (all genius aside)
BLESS HIS BEAUTIFUL SOUL!

back @ ya
333

Tell me, soulJah, who's tried to prevent you from telling your story? From doing whatever you wish?

The Titanic was an analogy for the enlightenment experience, in case you missed it. Certainly drugs will get you there but for many the drugs do get out of hand. Not because of the drugs themselves, but because they are used recklessly.

Again, as so often before, a discussion about drugs and their use is perilously close to becoming a two sided rantathon with both sides building ever higher soapboxes.

QuoteThey're just genius! We are all genius! Tap into it however you want. There is however a massive structure that works against you...know this!
Everything established in this world is constructed to KEEP YOU FROM THAT GENIUS!!! KEEP YOU WEAK & WANTING! All of them are built with extreme subtlety. Some of these geniuses even helped (unknowingly) to pave the way

Good thing you're savvy to that. Most people confuse the order of things and think drugs will create genius and give all the answers. Glad to hear you're not one.

:wink: I got your joke withe Olsens, no worries. But I still had to respond to a button being pressed.

2cents & L&L
jouni

What difference does it make if "I" said they were genius because of taking drugs, or they were geniuses that took drugs? REALLY?!?
I honor their work. Not because it's hip or trendy, not because it's the right thing to do.  If you notice there is a total lack of female genius throughout history, but that's a different gripe. Christ...I have a very strong reason to believe that the bible itself was written by some very heavy drug user's.
My opinions mean nothing!!!  They do not sum up who I am, and they definitely don't exist to define who you are...'nough said.

Always be grateful that there is more than ONE path.
Celebrate all the difference no matter how on point you think you are!

333
:wink:

QuoteCertainly drugs will get you there but for many the drugs do get out of hand. Not because of the drugs themselves, but because they are used recklessly.

When aren't humans reckless???

The word "drug" is funny to me, most likely one of the poorest defined words in the dictionary. Take a mushroom for instance...completely harmless unto itself. Where did come from? Why is it there? It isn't bad, or evil, or powerful in anyway, shape or form. It just is. Something within our chemical make up and the mushrooms chemical make up meld. It awakens something in us. This cannot be defined, defended or dismissed.  Every single plant has some magic to it, some medicinal quality in reaction to our physical bodies. I defend all plants! I would never think to separate the good from the bad...what is that function???
We are already connected to a higher consciousness that is rightfully ours...though we are currently hanging on by a thread...there is talk of coming round full circle in regards to the 2012 shift.

What is being discussed here has nothing at all to do with drugs. It has to do soul-ly with the state of the human condition! People are really f**ked up, and what's the fun in discussing that? If we started talking about what we as humans should keep away from...I don't think the list would end. If we follow that line of thinking...the majority should avoid sex as well, anything with a sharp point, or anything that involves interaction whatsoever, bcuz humans understand so little (if anything) about cause and effect...where animals on the other hand we never cursed with the ability of contemplation.

What a tangled web we weave!
333

QuoteWhat difference does it make if "I" said they were genius because of taking drugs, or they were geniuses that took drugs? REALLY?!?
I honor their work. Not because it's hip or trendy, not because it's the right thing to do. If you notice there is a total lack of female genius throughout history, but that's a different gripe. Christ...I have a very strong reason to believe that the bible itself was written by some very heavy drug user's.
My opinions mean nothing!!! They do not sum up who I am, and they definitely don't exist to define who you are...'nough said.

None whatsoever. And to point out that nobody's claimed you said anything to that effect is redundant.


2cents & L&L
Jouni[/quote]

My philosophy is that Drugs don't make people crazy, other people make people crazy.  Ive used many psychedelic drugs and can honestly say Its not that big of a deal.  I remember reading in high times magazine a few years ago an interview with the infamous guru Andrew Weil where he explained that you can have much more profound experiences using your own mind than you could ever have from a drug, at the time I just kinda scoffed at the idea, to me it was typical "hippie" mumbo-jumbo, but really he was right. After all people have the most primo drugs all ready built in vivo, Endorphins, serotonin, dopamine etc. IMO People give drugs way to much credit, whether it be positive or negative.

QuoteSo you are saying they were geniuses as a result of using drugs? Or they were already geniuses who chose to use drugs? There's a diffference.

Let's run with the redundant thing......shall we?!?
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE OH WISE ONE?

challenge: can you respond without making it black & white???

taunt, taunt
:lol:
333

Regarding the original post..

QuoteHas anybody tried using drugs as a means to attain the experiense like: ie Nitrous Oxide, dmt, Ketamine etc etc?

There was one experience I read that advised against the use of LSD that I thought was interesting, regarding this.

The person reported having OBEs and thinking she was dead, panicking, and having a very bad trip. Therefore, she recommended no one ever try LSD.

I guess this just goes along with what Frank said. This girl was having spontaneous out of body experiences, but because she didn't properly understand what was happening to her, it was a bad experience for her. She was doing it as a silly social thing with friends anyway.


Ben K,

Did the morning glories give you any ill-feelings? I've read that there are two toxins within the seeds that, unless removed, cause unpleasantness in the line of stomach pains and headaches. Did you experience anything like this, or did you extract the LSA beforehand?

QuoteThe person reported having OBEs and thinking she was dead, panicking, and having a very bad trip. Therefore, she recommended no one ever try LSD. "

I really hate when people are naive to the effects of psychedelic and consequently have a frightening and alienating experience then feel it is their duty to bad mouth and discourage people from using the drug in question. Just because they were mentally ill equiped for it dosen't mean everyone will be also.  

Really all I wanted to know was if there are people here who use drugs to potentiate or induce OBE's. I personally have only ever had 3 OBE's, one from when I had ingested a dissociating drug called Ketamine another one when I had a high fever, and also after inhaling laughing gas for several minutes.  I don't think that most psychedelic drugs would induce OBE's like LSD or Mushrooms, that is, unless you get very frightened and have a panic reaction which could easilly cause an OBE.  Some drugs though I feel can be used emphatically to induce or atleast potentiate an OBE, namely Ketamine and Nitrous Oxide. Terrence Mckenna also had some interesting research into alternate dimensions that could be entered through mushrooms, electron spin and temporal resonances, DMT, as described in True Hallucinations, The Archaic Revival, The Hidden Landscape.

Got me there SoulJah.  :shock:

Yes.
A nongenius man may take drugs and not become a genius. A genius on the other hand may take them and remain a genius. There's a splethora of variances between the two. JUst know where on that line you are is all I'm saying.

I know people who've tried the first, failed  and ended in ruin. Hence my wariness when it comes to introducing chemicals to one's system.


2cents & L&L
jouni

Quote from: Souljah3336 pages have been written by those who are NOT drug user's...(stating mostly the drastic downfalls, the poisonous attributes, and oh-so-typically winding up on the point  of illegality. (we all know these things)(we all know so damn much about everything...don't we). And may it be understood that I have a problem...not with any individuals right to live in whatever mindset they choose, nor to contemplate the things or worlds outside...but to ignorantly (sorry there is no other word) draw boxes around other people, and force that their (conditioned) view point, supported by the majority of "decent/upstanding/functional/law-abiding" citizens it the ONLY CORRECT function....but on to the free-diving issue...

Exactly. I like to think of it caveman style. What negative things could happen if a person who was never involved in any kind of society whatsoever, spoke no language, etc., took the drug. The reason i do this is exactly what you said, to shed societys constant labeling and the taboo around it. I guess you could say i have started to try to "uncondition" myself. And not just on drugs, but everything from religion, to materialism. Let me tell ya, living in the suburbs SUCKS!

QuoteBenK what is your reason for drawing a line between poppy seeds and morning glory seeds? I'm not surprised you didn't like the DXM, when you think about the trip it took before it got to you...I can't see where it would be anywhere near pleasant.  There's a huge difference between smoking pot that's grown outside in the wonder of natural elements, and pot that's grown in a closet under artificial light with thrash music blaring 24-7. This knowledge is an important factor to anyone that's traveling the magic path of plants/chemicals.

DXM was indeed pleasent, i had a great time. And im sure im going to be doing it again. I just have to seriously evaluate what it did and how i can do it different next time. The one thing i didnt like is the memory-loss factor. I would sit in the dark with my friends for hours at a time, and it felt like it went by in a minute. On the flipside, we listened to "Cant Ya Hear Me Knockin" and it seemed to last an hour, which was great.

Anyway, It seems to me that opiates really just give you a body high for a couple hours, and there is really not "trip" per say. My main reason I like doing psyc. is that it opens up my "subconscious". Sitting around feeling like youre floating for an hour just doesnt sound fun.

If i am wrong however, please correct me  :twisted:

Quote"Anyway, It seems to me that opiates really just give you a body high for a couple hours, and there is really not "trip" per say. My main reason I like doing psyc. is that it opens up my "subconscious". Sitting around feeling like you're floating for an hour just doesn't sound fun"

Opiates are usually only addictive to people suffering from depression, in non-depressed people it usually doesn't have much "psychological" habituation occur.  It is more of an emotional drug which is stimulating to a persons Limbic system which in turn causes Euphoria and is generally a temporary cure for depression.

As for it being psychedelic or mind expanding depends upon what your definition of those are.  It doesn't create much of a disturbance in your senses while your fully awake, though if you take an adequate dose it does cause you to become very drowsy and fall into a semi-conscious stupor that users call "going on the nod".  In this state one might be able to induce an OBE with greater ease, its an incredibly lucid and dreamy consciousness and for the most part the person is fully aware, Often while on the nod you feel very realistic sensations of flying and free falling. Since it causes elation and euphoria there is usually only positive feedback regarding nodding, even though it is quite surreal and fantastic.  To get to that level you'd usually have to take fair dose of a pretty strong opiate, like Heroin, oxycodone, or Morphine, that is unless you are overly sensitive in which case codeine may be sufficient.

NLC:

Yep, that's a typical example, unfortunately.

Someone suddenly finds themselves "out of body" and they totally freak. Now, this happens naturally during sleep, for example, where someone may become lucid in a dream, they freak and zap back to physical. Whereupon they sit up in bed, breath a sigh of relief thinking, phew, it was all "just a dream".

The problem with the drug-fuelled experience is there is no stopping it! They end up immersed within Focus 2 of consciousness with all their thoughts (usually fearful) coming to life all around them... and there's no zapping back to physical as an escape.

The core problem is they don't realise where they are in consciousness. If they knew they were actually within their own mind then they would know how to control it... simply stop thinking! And it would all just dissipate.

But because people do not realise where in consciousness they are, the phenomenon of the "bad trip" has been brought into being. There is no such "thing" as a bad-trip, per se. You are just within Focus 2 of consciousness. So all your thoughts and feelings come to life all around you. If you are in a bad mood, then you are going to be immersed in the objective representations of that bad mood. Chances are that will make you feel worse, and so you are going to find yourself in worse circumstances. Which makes you feel worse, and so you are going to find yourself in progressively worsening circumstances. Hence the term "bad trip" was born. However, the whole experience is entirely generated by the individual, and all they need do to stop it is to simply stop thinking, or think of something happy, and so it will become.

I've never done any of these drugs, but some are quite powerful substances and I can understand why a government would make them illegal. But I simply cannot agree that that is the right course. I just want to make clear, here, that I am speaking purely as a member not as a moderator, as there may be possible legal technicalities else; and you can't be too careful these days, with the sheer hysteria that abounds from all the scaremongering in the mainstream media.

But making these substances illegal, simply prevents people from experimenting safely. There should be reliable, unbiased official information that educates people as to the effects of, for example LSD.

Otherwise, you engender the very situations that other people use to point the finger saying all these substances are dangerous. So by making them illegal and punishable by punitive prison terms, you prevent people from getting proper information, which causes all these horror stories to arise, and so they use the details of these horror stories to justify their continued illegality.

It's just a continuous, highly self-defeating vicious circle.

They should be decriminalised forthwith, and dispensed from licensed outlets in known concentrations just like alcohol. In my personal view, if people want to eat mushrooms, or smoke whacky baccy, or take LSD, or whatever, it's their body and their business. I choose not to, but that's my choice. People should not be forced to take for example, LSD any more than they should be forced not to.

Anything can be dangerous if it's uncontrolled. You can't just get in a car and drive it any old how. There are strict rules that must be observed. Cars have killed far more people than LSD ever will. But people still drive and cars are more popular than ever.

Drugs should not be just available willy nilly, but they should not be banned either. They should be able to be purchased through properly licensed outlets in strictly controlled concentrations. As I say, just like alcohol and like, for example, in Amsterdam where you have the coffee shops that sell a variety of different types of weed and what they call "space cakes" which I think are mushroom cakes.

Yours,
Frank

I don't know if it is possible but I have heard that one of the consequences of LSD is that you may have one of those hallucinations after a long period of times! Even 2 years after you took some! Is it true? (I've never took that stuff so I'm not worrying too much).  

Quote from: Frank
Drugs should not be just available willy nilly, but they should not be banned either. They should be able to be purchased through properly licensed outlets in strictly controlled concentrations.

In just a few countries we may see drugs (ex: heroin) not being sanctioned by the law (I think it's Holland). Instead of jailing the drug addicts, they try to help them and as surprising as it me be, the percentage of people taking drugs did not rise at all, it's even going down!

Take care,

Quote from: patapoufI don't know if it is possible but I have heard that one of the consequences of LSD is that you may have one of those hallucinations after a long period of times! Even 2 years after you took some! Is it true? (I've never took that stuff so I'm not worrying too much).  

Quote from: Frank
Drugs should not be just available willy nilly, but they should not be banned either. They should be able to be purchased through properly licensed outlets in strictly controlled concentrations.

In just a few countries we may see drugs (ex: heroin) not being sanctioned by the law (I think it's Holland). Instead of jailing the drug addicts, they try to help them and as surprising as it me be, the percentage of people taking drugs did not rise at all, it's even going down!

Take care,

FLASHBACKS:

Quoted without permission from 'Licit and Illicit Drugs,' written by Edward M. Brecher and the editors of Consumer Reports. ISBN: 0-316-15340-0

A simple explanation of LSD flashbacks, and of their changed character after 1967, is available. According to this theory, almost everybody suffers flashbacks with or without LSD. Any intense emotional experience--the death of a loved one, the moment of discovery that one is in love, the moment of an automobile smashup or of a narrow escape from a smashup--may subsequently and unexpectedly return vividly to consciousness weeks or months later. Since the LSD trip is often an intense emotional experience, it is hardly surprising that it may similarly "flash back."

"Post-traumatic stress disorder has been commonly associated with war veterans, but it also affects victims of disasters and violence... Experts estimate that 1% of the population suffers from the disorder."
---LA Times, Feb 18 1992, p A3, "Journey For Better Life Hell For Some Women."

Can smoking marijuana induce a flashback?
Also are you more likely to suffer flashbacks from having a bad trip?

Apparently yes and yes. The following is reproduced without permission from Lester Grinspoon and James B. Bakalar, "Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered," Basic Books, Inc. New York, 1979. pp. 159-163. I highly recommend this book, and if you find it please buy me one too.

I typed this in a while ago and didn't type in the references at the time (slap!). If you want them i'll see what i can do. Typos are mine.

... Studies of flashbacks are hard to evaluate because the term has been used so loosely and variably. On the broadest definition, it means the transitory recurrence of emotions and perceptions originally experienced while under the influence of a psychedelic drug. It can last seconds or hours; it can mimic any of the myriad aspects of a trip; and it can be blissful, interesting, annoying, or frightening. Most flashbacks are episodes of visual distortion, time distortion, physical symptoms, loss of ego boundaries, or relived intense emotion lasting a few seconds to a few minutes. Ordinarily they are only slightly disturbing, especially since the drug user usually recognizes them for what they are; they may even be regarded lightheartedly as "free trips." Occasionally they last longer, and in a small minority of cases they turn into repeated frightening images or thoughts. They usually decrease quickly in number and intensity with time, and rarely occur more than a few months after the original trip.

A typical minor and pleasant flashback is the following:

... Frequently afterward there is a momentary "opening" ("flash" would be too spastic a word) when for maybe a couple of seconds an area one is looking at casually, and indeed unthinkingly, suddenly takes on the intense vividness, composition, and significance of things seen while in the psychedelic condition. This "scene" is nearly always a small field of vision -- sometimes a patch of grass, a spray of twigs, even a piece of newspaper in the street or the remains of a meal on a plate.
(Cohen 1970[1965], pp. 114-115)

Here are two more troublesome examples:

For about a week I couldn't walk through the lobby of A-entry at the dorm without getting really scared, because of the goblin I saw there when I was tripping.
(Pope 1971, p. 93)

A man in his late twenties came to the admitting office in a state of panic. Althought he had not taken any drug in approximately 2 moths he was beginning to re-experience some of the illusory phenomena, perceptual distortions, and the feeling of union with the things areound him that had previously occurred only under the influence of LSD. In addition, his wife had told him that he was beginning to "talk crazy," and he had become frightened ... He was concerned lest LSD have some permanent effect on him. He wished reassurance so that he could take it again. His symptoms have subsided but tend to reappear in anxiety-provoking situations.
(Frosch et al. 1965, p. 1237)

Flashbacks are most likely to occur under emotional stress or at a time of altered ego functioning; they are often induced by conditions like fatigue, drunkenness, marihuana intoxication, and even meditative states. Falling asleep is one of those times of consciousness change and diminished ego control; an increase in the hypnagogic imagery common at the edge of sleep often follows psychedelic drug use and can be regarded as a kind of flashback. Dreams too may take on the vividness, intensity, and perceptual peculiarities of drug trips; this spontaneous recurrence of psychedelic experience in sleep (often very pleasant) has been called the high dream (Tart 1972). Marihuana smoking is probably the most common single source of flashbacks. Many people become more sensitive to the psychedelic qualities of marihuana after using more powerful drugs, and some have flashbacks only when smoking marihuana (Weil 1970). In one study frequency of marihuana use was found to be the only factor related to drugs that was correlated with number of psychedelic flashbacks (Stanton et al. 1976).

How common flashbacks are said to be depeds on how they are defined. By the broad definition we have been using, they occur very often; probably a quarter or more of all psychedelic drug users have experienced them. A questionanaire survey of 2,256 soldiers (Stanton and Bardoni 1972), leaving the definition to the respondents, revealed that 23 percent of the men who used LSD had flashbacks. In a 1972 survey of 235 LSD users, Murray P. Naditch and Sheridan Fenwick found that 28 percent had flashbacks. Eleven percent of this group (seven men in all) called them very frightening, 32 percent called them somewhat frightening, 36 percent called them pleasant, and 21 percent called them very pleasant. Sixty-four percent said that their flashbacks did not disrupt their lives in any way; 16 percent (4 percent of the whole LSD-using group) had sought psychiatric help for them (Naditch and Fenwick 1977). In a study of 247 subjects who had taken LSD in psychotherapy, William H. McGlothlin and David O. Arnold found 36 cases of flashbacks, only one of which was seriously disturbing (McGlothlin and Arnold 1971). McGlothlin, defining flashbacks narrowly for clinical purposes as "repeated intrusions of frightening images in spite of volitional efforts to avoid them" (McGlothlin 1974b, p. 291), estimates that 5 percent of habitual psychedelic users have experienced them.

There are few studies on the question of who is most susceptible. In 1974, R. E. Matefy and R. Krall compared psychedelic drug users who had flashbacks with those who did not, and found no significant differences in their biographies or on personality tests. The main causes of flashbacks were stress and anxiety. About 35 percent found them more or less pleasant, and the same proportion thought they could control them. Most accepted them as an inevitable part of their lives as members of the psychedelic fraternity and did not want help from psychiatry (Matefy and Krall 1974). Naditch and Fenwick found that the number of flashbacks, both pleasant and unpleasant, was highly correlated with the number and intensity of bad trips and the use of psychedelic drugs as self-prescribed psychotherapy. Those who enjoyed flashbacks and those who were frightened by them did not differ significantly on tests of ego functioning.

A case seen in an outpatient setting in the late sixties illustrates the kind of set and setting that may create flashback problems. PQ was a thirty-six-year-old single man who entered therapy because of depression and anxiety. He was a heavy drinker who was passive, slovenly, and spent most of his time in bed. Just before taking to alcohol and his bed he had failed in an attempt to parlay a gift from his wealthy father into a fortune on the stock market. Despite a remarkable incapacity for insight, during a year in psychotherapy he managed to give up alcohol and start a promising business. But his anxiety continued, and in order to allay it he had to keep himself very busy wheeling and dealing. Imitating his father, a successful self-made man who had married a woman twenty years younger than himself, PQ dated only women under the age of nineteen. Being attractive to young women was so imporant to him that much of his time was spent in the company of teenagers. During business hours he would wear a conservative three-piece suit and drive a new sedan, but when he was with his young friends he would wear a leather jacket and drive a motorcycle. Anxiety and fears of inadequacy dominated both of these lives. Several months after therapy began, during a weekend in a small resort town, his young friends decided to take LSD, and he felt obliged to dissemble his fears and join them; it was his first and only trip. He felt a panic he had never known before; he thought that he was losing his mind and going "out of control." His friends were so concerned that they took him to a small hospital, where he was given chlorpromazine and after six hours released in their care. The next day he had a flashback that lasted one or two hours and was almost as frightening as the original experience. Flashbacks continued for six months, their frequency, duration, and severity eventually diminishing to the point where it was difficult for him to determine whether they were related to the LSD trip or merely an intensification of his usual anxiety. In fact, the patient described the flashbacks as being like very much enhanced anxiety episodes. Even several years after this experience, when he became very anxious, he was reminded of the trip and these flashbacks. He denied that these experiences had any perceptual or cognitive aspect; both during the LSD trip and later, the only symptom was panic. There is no question that the nature of his trip was influenced by the unfortunate set and setting. It is a matter of speculation what part his underlying chronic anxiety played in the development and form of the flashback phenomena.

Several explanations for flashbacks have been proposed. One is that the drug has lowered the threshold for imagery and fantasy and made them less subject to voluntary control; in another version of this explanation, flashbacks are caused by a heightened attention to certain aspects of immediate sensory experience suggested by drug trips and reinforced by the community of drug users. Something more seems to be needed to account for repeated fearful relivings of sequences from past drug trips, and these have been explained as similar to traumatic neuroses precipitated by fright: disturbing unconscious material has risen to consciousness during the drug trip and can be neither accepted nor repressed. For example, D. F. Saidel and R. Babineau (1976) have reported a case of recurrent flashbacks -- three years of blurring images and auditory distortions, with some anxiety and confusion -- which they regard as a neurosis founded on the patient's problems with his career and his relationship to his mother. (See also Horowitz 1969; Shick and Smith 1970; Heaton 1975.) Another explanation treats the flashback as an example of recall associated with a particular level of arousal. (Fischer 1971). In this conception the memory of an experience is best retrieved when the rate of mental data-processing is the same as it was during the original experience -- in other words, when the state of consciousness in similar. Therefore, psychedelic experiences are likely to be recalled and relived when the ego's sorting and control of sensory information is disturbed by drugs, stress, or the state of half-sleep.

-From the LSD FAQ at http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml

they've also started the heroin program in B.C. as well, not sure if it's helping or not (yet). as i mentioned i grew up around a lot of drugs, which is why i don't have any hang up's per say. i've tried a good deal, but i never once thought about making a career out of it. some people have a highly addictive nature...i suppose they have to control themselves in all aspects of life.
i see where there's a problem keeping things taboo/illegal. it's too bad really, bcuz i believe that it's all being used for very black op type control and manipulation projects. there's no other reason why marijuana shouldn't be legalized. it's less dangerous than alcohol, less detrimental, and leads to less aggressive behavior. people like to call it a gateway drug, but i don't agree with that speculation.

There having a free "StreamLink" weekend at coasttocoastam.com!
I urge everyone to spend the entire weekend listening to the achieved shows!!! I'm a dedicated listener of four years, and the best show yet has been Black Budgets & Money Trails (Monday. April 4th) AN ABSOLUTE MUST LISTEN!!!  

Go to c2c and check out the "past shows" link (top left)...there's a host of excellent interviews (ie. Messages from the Masters/UFO Roundtable (w/ Linda Moulton Howe, Grant Cameron, Bruce Maccabee, and Bob Wood)/
Psychic Dreamers/Astral Projection Techniques (w/ROBERT BRUCE)/
Underground & Undersea Bases & for my special friend Titanic: Myth & Fact  :wink: and that's only about 10% of the selection over the last few months that you can tune into. You can also download to h/d,disc & mp3.

Thank's for the reply folks,

The only ''desintox'' that I had to do (last week) was ''caffeine''  :D which is the most popular stimulant in the world! The side effects of course is not really hard compared to drugs but it can still give you a good headache! I make decaf. double espressos now.... Doesn't really taste the same but it still good!

Take care,

Ben K -

I think you may have missed a question I had regarding morning glory in my last post. I asked,

QuoteBen K,

Did the morning glories give you any ill-feelings? I've read that there are two toxins within the seeds that, unless removed, cause unpleasantness in the line of stomach pains and headaches. Did you experience anything like this, or did you extract the LSA beforehand?

I just thought that I would throw that back out beforehand to give you another chance to catch that, since the posts are somewhat numerous and lengthy together. It would certainly be easy to miss.


Patapouf,

QuoteI don't know if it is possible but I have heard that one of the consequences of LSD is that you may have one of those hallucinations after a long period of times! Even 2 years after you took some! Is it true? (I've never took that stuff so I'm not worrying too much).

If something like this occurred it would not be because of the drug, but because of something psychological or whatever other term is appropriate here. LSD wears off completely within a day or so, and so I don't believe it could still be causing hallucinations itself. I'm not completely certain, though.


Frank,

I suspected the 'spiral effect' of negative astral experiences and bad LSD trips shared a common cause, but are you saying that all drug-induced experiences are actually kinds of forced entries into other consciousnesses?

Quote from: no_leaf_cloverBen K -

I think you may have missed a question I had regarding morning glory in my last post. I asked,

QuoteBen K,

Did the morning glories give you any ill-feelings? I've read that there are two toxins within the seeds that, unless removed, cause unpleasantness in the line of stomach pains and headaches. Did you experience anything like this, or did you extract the LSA beforehand?

I just thought that I would throw that back out beforehand to give you another chance to catch that, since the posts are somewhat numerous and lengthy together. It would certainly be easy to miss.

Ah yeah sorry mate. Heres the deal with that. If you can find a wholesale seed distributer around, you can buy like a pound or 2 of seeds for really cheap. These dont have any of the pesticides that most seed companys put on there. I have also heard there more potent ;)

if you cant find a wholesale dist., find a walgreens. They usually have untreated seeds. The most important thing about finding untreated seeds is this: the government REQUIRES them to put a warning about not ingesting, or not meant for human consumption, etc. So you can go to literally any place that sells flower seeds and find a package without a warning.

If you want some tips on preperation and ingestion just pm me, i could tell you the best ways.

QuoteI suspected the 'spiral effect' of negative astral experiences and bad LSD trips shared a common cause, but are you saying that all drug-induced experiences are actually kinds of forced entries into other consciousnesses?

Duh! You are definitely in another state of consiousness when you are a drug experiance! Thats why you do it! The thing is, i suspect that alot of the epiphanies and such that people have on drugs are just F2oC experiances that they objectively interpret as spiritual. But i guess the real question is when is a duck not a duck? Is dreaming you had an obe the same thing as having an obe? Just different levels of awareness, i would think.

QuoteDuh! You are definitely in another state of consiousness when you are a drug experiance!

lol, I meant like the same sort of things you can experience through phasing/etc. but I guess you're right in that it might as well be all the same. :)

I don't guess you got any headache or stomach ache from MG? I wasn't talking about the pesticides but two other mild toxins (Erowid's site mentions them but I don't think it specifies exactly what toxins these are) present in the seed husks themselves. One is water soluble and the other isn't supposed to be a big problem unless you really grind the seeds. I don't guess you ground them enough to get that second toxin out enough to produce pronounced effects, but those types of ill-effects were the ones I was curious about.

COFFEE is a weakness for me, and it's funny because minus the few bad trips i've have had from certain drugs...i've found caffeine to effect me most adversely in the astral. when i was younger i could easily drink a few pots of coffee a day. i attributed it to being Canadian  :wink: , but i guess i had a "problem". i've since traded in two pots for a pack (cigs)...mixing it up a little. (and YES...never start smoking!) anyway i seem to have my worst attacks if i drink coffee just before going to bed. not sure why that would be of any importance...i guess bcuz we were talking about the effect of drugs on the astral experience.

once again...
Q: no one with mushroom experience?

http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/chaptersummaries.html#Society
clinical dmt studies (fairly interesting in regards to penal gland).

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/psychoactives.shtml
great site

http://www.drugwar.com/caddenexperience.shtm
MUST READ---opening the doors of perception/1st trip in the 1st person.
The Experience- Ayahuasca
&
http://www.jamesarthur.net/about.html
JAMES ARTHUR**** ADVICE FROM THE MOST EXPERIENCED

QuoteMimosa rootbark is VERY VERY VERY strong, it WILL kick your butt through several dimensions. Psychedelic bravado is not in order with this substance. This is no toy psychedelic, this is the Real Thing. Do not assume that just because you can eat a quarter sheet of acid and cope that you can handle ayahuasca. You can't handle ayahuasca. IT handles YOU. Use her with respect, and she can show you things you cant see any other way. Use her unwisely, and she will tear you apart and teach you respect.

from http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=5694

this stuff grows everywhere, mostly the sides of highways...but i wouldn't suggest using it due to the fossil fuel residues (even though the bark is what is consumed). i've made tea with the berries before, but as a kid i was always told the rest of the tree/plant was highly poisonous. AYAHUASCA is the trip i'm wanting to take someday in my shaman fantasy/vision quest thing. not ready yet...some loose ends to straighten out first. i've been close to this experience, and i would not suggest it in anyway if you are not in a comfortable headspace with yourself. this is major therapy s**t...a lifetime of bootcamp packed in a 6 hour session.

Quoteno one with mushroom experience?

I've had plenty mushroom experiences, on numerous different subspecies Psilocybin and aminitas varieties as well.

and???

anything worth commenting on?

reading more ayahuasca/mimosa trip accounts (really like erowid experience vault and the way it's set up)...
what i find interesting is the shaman/co-pilot direction, and how many people have been cured during these sessions...from demonic possession, to depression, to terminal cancer. how immediate/direct it is, the price you have to pay for that, etc.  it's obviously becoming a trend from the wealth of info on the web...five years ago the only people that were doing this were flying off to peru and hiking into the jungle.

a lot of people that frequent this site are looking for answers to weird dreams, looking for explanations outside the box that validate and ease their experiences...whether it be sleep paralysis, or an OBE. there are a handful that are well-established in the astral, and i have no hesitation stating i am one of these. the things that are most often discussed are difficult for me to grasp, because it involves me reaching back 30 years into the past. i was about nine when the floodgates opened in full force. it's like trying to recall what kind of shoes my third grade teacher wore, what the score was on my first math test, and the name of that kid that use to sit in back of class and eat his boogers...and then try to summarize how it's relevant...now.

but i'm way off point...with all the information and speculation and discussion...with all the books, the practice, the weighing out, the conclusions, the filing, filtering, etc...it is possible to walk right into that world that everyone here is interested in. after all this time i see that at the end of my path...because no matter how much energy, time, passion, intellect, or raw instinctive behavior i put into it (and i've put a lifetime worth believe me)...i see very clearly how securely we are all plugged in.
yes...it's possible to get "there" by dedicating ones life to it, but you've got folks in tibet who live in remote caves and spend all their time doing nothing but, and they still would never chance to tell you they're there. (and these guys do a LOT of drugs...if that's what you want to call them.)

it's a lot like the matrix movie...the red pill or the blue. that proverbial door that separates. the movie didn't get into neo's life before the knock, before the appearance of the white rabbit. obviously he was deeply into the "idea" of the "matrix"...but as we discover, nothing could have prepared him. the movie makes it clear that no one can get there on their own. it involved him making a choice, it involved him "asking", and making his intentions clear...never mind the pills. my point is he had to go through the door BACKWARDS. there was no other way to see what he was trapped by (the reality). and this were i do believe that some plants exist as "keys". we are allowed to hang out in the lobby, discuss what's on the other side, peek through the keyholes...but the sign clearly reads "VIP's ONLY"...you've got your invitation...it's your birthright. it's where you were created, it's where we all return...and it's possible to cash in at any time (for the golden key).

neo walked back into reality with the keys in his hand, but this time as a gamer. i guess that supports the power that comes with releasing the fear of death. that movie knocked me on my butt...of course i was high at the time (but... :wink: ). makes me laugh bcuz i went with my folks, and some of their friends (b.boomers). i walked into a totally different world when i left the theater, and then had to listen to them drag the entire thing through the mud on the way home (bummer). i think that was the big question that came with the film...red pill or blue???
i would assume most here would like to think they would choose the red.
(oh wait............you guys don't take drugs.)

i guess that's kind of my point (also)...the pills become irrelevant after the fact. i mean...the last thing neo was thinking of doing in the matrix was smoking a big fat spliff right?!? doesn't matter what side of the door your on...it's the most f**ked up trip you'll ever take. the drugs are more like new eyeballs...JUST A TOOL...and i'm not talking about drool-all-over-yourself coma type drugs, or lets-forget-were-alive happy pills, or even i'm-so-cool-with-my-antique/genius drugs. i'm talking about the ancient blue and red pill.

willing to give up EVERYTHING for the TRUTH?!?
(http://www.arrod.co.uk/images/blue-pill.jpg)
(http://www.arrod.co.uk/images/red-pill.jpg)

NLC:

That's a good question and not one that I can really comment on with any degree of authority, as it is way beyond my experience. I have never actually taken any of these drugs. But knowing the nature of the wider reality, when I read people's reports on mushroom and LSD "trips" I can readily see that what is happening is the drug is causing a kind-of "forced" focus of attention shift into Focus 2 of consciousness.

The big problem with that is people do not actually realise the nature of the environment and the fact that they are now sitting slap-bang within their own personal area of mind. Which means all their thoughts will come to life all around them. People tend to believe that the drug itself has caused some kind of weird "trip". When in reality, the person themselves have caused the trip. All the drug has done is to cause them to focus away from the physical into Focus 2 of consciousness instead of Focus 1.

Saying that, I have also read a number of reports that clearly show these drugs can also cause an F1/F2 overlay experience. I suppose it depends on the dosage, but I'm guessing there, as I've never taken them, as I say. But an overlay experience is where people perceive 2 or more areas of consciousness at the same time. So people are seeing the physical, but superimposed on their vision of that are visions they are picking up from F2 of consciousness also. Again, people tend to think it is the drug itself that has caused this. But they are causing it. The drug has simply broken down the "barrier" so to speak, that the person would normally place between the two areas of consciousness.

Someone who is schizophrenic, for example, has not erected the same "barrier" between F1 and F2 that most other people have placed. So they see these kinds of visions all the time.

Yours,
Frank

Frank: Its extremely interesting that you say that. When i was under the unfluence of these things, other people would not percieve the same hallucinations, auditory, visual, whatever, which now that i come to think of it correpsonds directly to what you are saying. Each person is instead engaging there own images from F2.

The allure that i see from drugs is this: Experiancing life in an altered state. Now, im sure once i become able to fully phase and enter different focuses at will this allure will diminish, as i can have any experiance i want while in these states.

Another alluring aspect is the social aspect. Alot of people tend to take lsd and psylocibin socially. ALso in the 70s/80s bikers would get together in abondoned warehouses and trip on dxm. What i believe happened is they entered F3 of consciousness as opposed to lsd/mushroom of F2 or F2/F1 overlap. I know I had great fun enacting out "fantasies" with friends, and listening to music, etc etc.

Ben:

Yes, that's correct. Problem is, mystics typically call anything non-physical "the astral" and to them this "astral" is a separate place that is inhabited by all manner of "beings" often monster-type beings like devils and demons and stuff. They don't actually see it as being their own mind.

Even when you are within Focus 3, it is still your own mind. It's just that within your mind you have individual sections and common sections where you allow a subjective energy interaction with others who are doing the same. So it looks like a common area in consciousness, but it's not actually a common area that has been set out. It just looks that way because of all the subjective energy interactions that take place. In reality, you are still within your own mind but you are "sharing" a part of it with others, so to speak.

Focus 3 is very much like the physical in the subjective interactions that take place. This is why people such as Bruce Moen think of Focus 3 as the Afterlife. Because you do get people, millions of people, simply living a life that is very physical-like.

In a drug experience, from what I have read, people typically experience Focus 2 of consciousness. This is the place where they go on their individual "trip". All the visuals, hearing voices, flying around, etc. this is Focus 2.

Now, if you were to actually realise that right "next door", in a manner of speaking, is your common area, i.e. Focus 3, then within the experience you should be able to cause a phase shift to Focus 3. If you are in a group of people doing the same thing, in theory, if you all get it right, then you should all be able to meet-up within Focus 3 and have a laugh.

Yours,
Frank

So, hypothetically, if you were to phase shift to focus 3 while under the influence of, say, lsd, there is a possibility that instead of normal, everyday hallucinations "overlapping" you might see seperate entities?

Im sure that has happened to a number of people already accidently, but they chalk it up to "just the drugs".

Interesting  :twisted:

Ben:

Yes, I was about to say that you are not actually under the influence of the LSD. All the drug has done it to remove the "veil" that people typically place between here and there, in a manner of speaking. I say that because there is no here and there as separate places. It's all you as one continuum in consciousness. But we place these "barriers" for the purposes of our experience.

You talk about separate "entities" but in reality, they are just other people whose primary focus is Focus 3 of consciousness instead of Focus 1. People must surely have had these experiences but, as you say, they chalk it up to the drugs. Again, unfortunately, the drugs introduce people to concepts they are not able to comprehend, which does create complications in certain types of people.

One day we will realise that our consciousness extends way "beyond" the physical and people will stop seeing this phenomenon as some kind of separate place that people "travel" to. All you have to keep in mind is Focus 2 (the place mystics commonly call the Astral) is your individual area, and Focus 3 is a "common" area.

So if you are meeting people who are independent of you then that's Focus 3. If you are dwelling within your own belief constructs then that is Focus 2. Mega complications have come about in the past because people have not realised that Focus 2 is their own individual area in consciousness.

They have gone to this place and seen their own belief constructs come to life but have failed to recognise them as such. So they have come away thinking they are right! Well, they are bound to be right because it's their own area of mind. So whatever you think will come about, and if you are thinking of it as a separate place, unconnected with you, then you will believe the Astral is so and so.

Then you get groups of people subscribing to the same beliefs all going to the "astral" and they all have similar experiences. So then, you get the group consensus coming into play. They all believe it all the more because they all have similar experiences. But they all hold similar beliefs! Remember the golden rule: thought follows belief. Not the other way around. So, within Focus 2, their thoughts come to life, but those thoughts are based on their beliefs and all they are viewing are the objective manifestations of their group consensus beliefs within Focus 2.

So then one group of one set of beliefs have one set of experiences, and announces that their beliefs are the "truth". But other groups with other beliefs are saying the same thing... because everyone is dwelling within their own individual area of mind. Everyone is seeing their own "truth" being manifest and everyone is thinking they are travelling to some separate place. But all they are doing is dwelling within Focus 2. And that's how humankind has been for thousands of years!

That's why people like Monroe were pioneers in this field. I think people just don't realise just how profound Monroe's work has been in furthering the knowledge of the wider reality. His linear-focus model virtually eliminates Focus 2 of consciousness. Instead, it directs the user towards Focus 3 of consciousness. Thus neatly bypassing the highly negative sense of mystical misunderstanding that has haunted this planet for thousands of years.

Yours,
Frank

Here Frank, these 'focus three' areas of counsiousness.. from what i have experienced of them myself and what I've read, once constructed, they appear very stable, as stable as anything physical in fact, and seem to exist independantly of whether I am 'there' or not. 'The park' for example, appears to exist in a common form that trundles along of its own accord whether i am there or not.

I remember Ginny was talking once of how she was in some vast and elabourate complex; she found that even the present occupants didnt know who originally set it up; all they knew was that it had been constructed by people yonks ago who had long since moved on, but now others were coming in and staying there and decided to leave it as it was, since it was so impressive.. Again, the created enviroment itself seemed permanent, despite who was occupying it.

How does this fit with your focus three model?

Doug

Frank:

1 more quick question. This may seem a bit odd, but I have also heard of alot of people communicating with there pets telepathically, as well as other people, while under the influence.

Would you say that this takes place in F3 or F4? Also, could you even communicate with a pet?

Doug:

Yes, I am aware of Ginny's recount and I'm not at variance. Focus 3 is very physical-like as it is an area of common consensus reality, as opposed to Focus 2, which is an area of individual creation. But in all these areas, the reality exists whether you are focused there or not. The only difference is the nature of the subjective energy interactions.

Ultimately, it's a question of what you are moving through.

Each of us moves through our own individual continuum of consciousness from Focus 1 to Focus 4. Or more rather Focus 4 to Focus 1 (as Focus 1 is the end result). This is our focus stream of attention. We can move "up and down" this continuum of consciousness and view the events that we offer ourselves. But all the while, we are moving within our own mind. We may subjectively interact with another focus that we objectively view as another person, or we may subjectively interact with a pool of energy that has been deposited that we objectively view as a building. But all the while we are situated within our own continuum of consciousness. We are never "independent" of our own mind. All that changes is the nature of the subjective energy interaction.

The individual continuum(s) of consciousness that related to the person/people who constructed the buildings of which you speak, still exist. The continuum still holds the energy deposits, and it is that which the people were subjectively interacting with, that they objectively viewed as buildings. What it all boils down to, is what we perceive as objective reality is, in fact, a translation of the underlying subjective energy expression.

In the physical, we may sit on the toilet, drive a car, or go down the pub with the lads, but we are still within our own body. All that changes is the nature of the interaction. Problem is, people get a bit "body" fixated and fail to realise that a body is merely an objective representation of the accumulation of a particular set of expectations regarding the enactment of certain types of actions within particular areas of consciousness. It holds no other purpose. Ultimately, we are not a body but a focus personality moving along a particular stream of attention within the wider reality.

Someone made a point against me the other day, saying, how can it possibly be subjective reality when you can view it objectively? Unfortunately, this is the equivalent of watching the sun and concluding the sun revolves around the earth. It's obvious the sun revolves around the earth, I can see it does therefore it must. Well, science makes its living cutting great swathes through stuff like that.

Objectivity, in fact, is a translation of the underlying subjective energy expression. I stop short of saying that objective reality is an illusion, because it is very real. Anyone who thinks objective reality is an illusion should teach themselves better by walking into the nearest lamppost. But objective reality does not exist as an independent entity. It is a translation of the underlying subjective energy.

Without that underlying subjective energy, objective reality would just black out. It would be the equivalent of pulling the plug on a piece of electrical equipment. Everything physical would just disintegrate into individual atoms and then individual atoms themselves would disintegrate into progressively smaller particles (including us). This would hold true within Focus 3 also, even though structures within Focus 3 are not made of atoms, but of what are commonly called "finer" states of matter.

Reading this people may perhaps be wondering where all this subjective energy comes from... it comes from Focus 4 of consciousness. Focus 4 is the subjective energy source that "fuels" our whole sense of objective reality.

Yours,
Frank

Ben:

This is possible, though I have never done it myself, but in theory it is possible and telepathy is an interaction within F2.

Yours,
Frank

NOTE: I edited this post as I initially said F1 in error, I meant F2.

Frank: This may or may not be wayyy too off topic but could you define "subjective" for me? i know the traditional "dependent on your thoughts,emotions, etc" but would you sort of explain the whole subjective energy thing for me?

Also, if the energy in this "physical world" is objective, how is it that monks and highly trained people can alter it, via telekinisis, etc? Do they alter the translation of the subjective energy?

I think many of you guys are selling drugs short. I used to think in the same way to an extent. I had no interest in trying any drug. But frustration with my practice became too much and I have taken the plunge recently. I should note that I've never in my life done any hard drugs. Most of my experience has been with Salvia tincture. I've also smoked Salvia and a few other legal herbal blends. In all honesty, when on these drugs, I've never experienced anything other than a amplified version of what I feel everyday when I'm doing my energy work or breathing exercises. I have really no desire to "trip", get high, or get spaced-out. But I feel I've genuinely been helped by these substances. They help to relax my body, which leads me to achieve a deeper breath and to raise my energy to higher levels. These effect do tend to wear off as the drug wears off. But at the same time, they can be recreated if you continue to practice without the use of the drugs.

It should be remembered that shamanistic use of drugs has an ancient history. It really depends on what your intention is and how you approach the situation. As long as you're using the [legal] drug of your choice as a supplement to your practice, and are responsible in your approach, I think it's really ok.

I've been practicing for 4 years now btw. So it's like I'm some newbie that's gotten frustrated and turned to drugs after a coupe of weeks.

Quote from: Babar on April 29, 2005, 02:48:32
Has anybody tried using drugs as a means to attain the experiense like: ie Nitrous Oxide, dmt, Ketamine  etc etc?

Drugs don't take you into any kind of experience, they numb the things that hold you back from the experience.  If you didn't have to worry about the flesh and if we didn't have the heavy elements pumped into our atmosphere, we could probably ride the waves of solar wind to the next planet.  But, somewhere along the line of history, we gained flesh; and that is what holds us back. 

The experience I have had with Nitrous Oxide is when I go to the dentist and I can't figure out why they want me back so much.  Might be that they want to give me some gas.   :lol:

Realize that the elemental content of the earth is slowly being leached out by the acid in the rain.  The earth is just like your body; your body too is in equillibrium between acid and alkaline.  In Amsterdam, hemp grows everywhere, but the hemp there out in the open has no drug in it; no THC.  The 'pot' sold in the shops are different though; they grow them in the shops.  Take the seed from a plant grown in the shop and plant it outside, it will slowly lose the THC.  The drugs that are around now, like the mushroom, is different.  I have only done one kind, that's Psyllicibin, I guess.  And It was a very enlightening experience, something akin to what the astronauts experince in space.  But, I love pot!  I like Melatonin, but too much Melatonin for too long will do the opposite. 

5-HTP is the precursor to seratonin which is the precursor to melatonin, but 5-HTP is a calming neurotransmitter and too much will make you fly into a rage, like your body is telling you, 'STOP!'  I just found out that DMT will not effect you unless you take an MAOI with it.  Now 5-HTP, Melatonin, and DMT are almost the same.

DMT - N,N-dimethyltryptamine
Melatonin - 5-methoxy-N-acetyltryptamine
5-HTP - 5-Hydroxytryptophan

My Dad was friends with a dentist, and one day they went to his practice while it was closed and he was doing some free dental work on my dad. Long story short my dad asked to play with the Nitrous Oxide. He was taking it straight from the bottle (no tube or anything). So he was laying on the chair and took a hit from the bottle, He went OBE. He flew up in the corner of the ceiling and was looking at what the nurse was doing behind his physical body. She was mixing a few things in a bowl. Then he came back and told his friend what had happened. He didn't believe him until he mentioned what the nurse had been doing behind the wall. Then he believed him.

so, sorry for the length but clearly drugs can induce an OBE, no doubt. If you think about it, if OBE's are real, and your consciousness is separating from your body (or shifting focus) then how could a drug still affect you after you have separated. For example, if you projected while you were drunk, I doubt you would still be drunk once you separated or changed your focus. The only think that worries me is that there is so much talk about the mind having to be in a certain brain wave and blah blah blah. I don't understand how it could be both real and in your mind.

I like greg's take on this

QuoteDrugs don't take you into any kind of experience, they numb the things that hold you back from the experience.  If you didn't have to worry about the flesh and if we didn't have the heavy elements pumped into our atmosphere, we could probably ride the waves of solar wind to the next planet.  But, somewhere along the line of history, we gained flesh; and that is what holds us back.

I'm no good at projecting, but I have some skills in telepathy and I've noticed I'm the most receptive in a half-asleep - sometimes delirious - state. It's the most effective when my brain is falling asleep but my heart is still beating at the same rate, often during arousal. The sleep state causes your mind to let down all defenses, but the increased heart rate leaves your willpower intact so you can direct this altered state of mind.

It's similar to the effect of many drugs. Lower brain waves and higher heart rate. It seems to me that our brains have 'defenses' that prevent us from using our complete mind when we're awake, disabling telepathy and projection. I don't know why these defenses exist - it may be an evolutionary mechanism to protect us from psychic predators, although I doubt it. All I know is we can do extraordinary things when these defenses go down.

Quoteso, sorry for the length but clearly drugs can induce an OBE, no doubt. If you think about it, if OBE's are real, and your consciousness is separating from your body (or shifting focus) then how could a drug still affect you after you have separated.

Because a drug not only effects the physical body, but the etheric and astral counterparts as well. The drug itself has it's own astral counterparts.

My argument for this is: if it was really as simple as taking a drug to have an OBE, many, many, many more people would be doing it. There would be less of a debate as to whether it exists or not. More studies could be done in a lab.

But no matter how simple it sounds, you can't have reliable, controllable OBE's without clarity, awareness, & concentration. The exercises that help develop these qualities also strengthen chakras/energy centers in relation to the etheric and astral bodies as well. All of these things factor into AP which is why I believe drugs can never get a person very far if they want to incorporate AP into their daily life.

If there was a short cut, we would know it by now.

QuoteBecause a drug not only effects the physical body, but the etheric and astral counterparts as well. The drug itself has it's own astral counterparts.

That's a good point Stookie. I guess it all comes down to what you believe.

I wansn't arguing towards there being a drug that can induce an OBE whenever you want one. All I'm saying is that it worked before, so to all those people saying drugs cant induce an OBE are wrong.   

You can use certains drugs to have an OBE but once you are there you don't know how to manage the experience because the amount of lucidity in less than what you need.
A lot of people using drugs are having OBEs all the time, but they don't know they are because they never have one by themselves.
You master the OBE experience when you can have OBEs at will and not induced by external things.
Nevertheless, you can have a drug induced OBE experience as part of your exploratory process, but this is better if it comes after you have had OBEs by yourself, as part of your personal intention and development.
If you need drugs to have OBEs all the time you better check what is happening. The shamman does not use his plants all the time, because they are a tool for when it is needed, and in this case the drug related issue has other connotations because we are talking about plants and not about what some people find in our modern cities.
It is better if you strengthen your consciousness muscles first and only then you are ready to face energies so powerful and overwhelming without the risk of been subdued and tied by them in the first assault.

Be well!

For those here interested in iniciatory experiences, here is a place you can check out:

http://www.karunavine.com/4.html (http://www.karunavine.com/4.html)

As always, use your discernement, for this experiences are for true seekers. :roll:

I am fairly new to the idea of OBE and i have yet to do any psychedelics/entheogens (an entheogen is something that causes one to have a spiritual experience. all psychedelics are entheogens) but i have done quite a bit of research on boht subjects as well as shamanism.

First off in response to:

Quote from: Selski on April 29, 2005, 05:39:00
Personally, I find that if someone has had an experience whilst on a particular drug, I don't qualify it as a "genuine" experience.

I mean, if you chomp away on a handful of mushrooms, and then start seeing things and so on, wouldn't you always think to yourself "well, hey, that was some experience, but it was the mushrooms - it wasn't really me."  And you could end up relying on mushrooms, which is pretty grim, cause they taste horrible (so I've been told...)

I believe drugs totally invalidates an experience.  That's my opinion anyway.

Sarah

You are on a website pertaining to Astral Projection which is completely subjective, yet you say that an experience on a drug doesn't qualify as a genuine experience? That makes absolutely no sense. What makes the experience someone has while on an entheogen any less real than Astral Projection. Both are subjective experiences.


Right before coming to this thread i read about Frank's idea of "phasing" and i think that his idea and the ideas put forth by many "psychonauts" fit together very well. The idea that the astral is merely a shift in ones awareness, and that one can shift awareness into different focuses coincides with the idea of an "altered state of mind" cause by entheogens.

It then makes sense that the entheogens dont actually cause the "trip" but that they cause the mind to shift it awareness to a higher level.

One of the most interesting entheogens is DMT. DMT is a chemical that is found in every living thing. DMT is also argueably the most powerful entheogen known to man. In humans it is produced in the pineal gland. Scientists believe that DMT is responsible for the phenomenon known as a NDE (near death experience) as it is released into the brain when the body under goes extreme shock. I find that very interesting as i later started reading about Astral Projection and how many believe that a NDE is actually a forced OBE. DMT is naturally released in the brain during death. In my reading of astral projection it seems that death is a final projection of one out of the body, but for good. Could DMT be used to cause such a projection? i.e. death.

It seems that with what i have learned that this very well could be the case.

I have read many trip reports of people that have used DMT as an entheogen and they seem very similiar to many trip reports of astral projectors.

Terrence Mckenna is one of the world's most foremost Psychonauts. His description of a DMT trip sounds very similiar to astral travel and it seems that he came in contact with astral beings or other conscious beings.

Audio of his experience can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc01EPmnHSQ


DMT and Salvia which are both considered the most powerful hallucinogens known to man, are both short acting and extremely intense and both cause CEVs (closed eye visuals). After i read Frank's idea of phasing and how that one closes one's eyes and and focuses on noticing and turning ones awareness into one's self, it would seem that hallucinogens such as DMT and Salvia could possibly cause one to raise one inner awareness. I have actually had CEVs from smoking marijuana, which apparently doesn't happen to a lot of people.

Also i talked to someone recently about their experience with salvia and he said that the entire time he was attempting to re-enter his body. So it seems to have induced an OBE.

And on the matter that taking entheogens could hinder your ability to project and induce OBEs i think this is highly false, as many shamans use entheogens and also talk about projecting.

i don't do drugs in the physical realm but they're kinda fun to do in the astral  :-P

Quote from: slapbasser1121 on January 20, 2010, 22:52:29
i don't do drugs in the physical realm but they're kinda fun to do in the astral  :-P

You do "astral drugs"?  O_o
You're seriously going to have to explain that one a bit more if you want anyone to take you seriously.  LoL

And if you're just joking... then...  :-D

Someone once asked if you could do drugs in the astral.

Think about it: people use drugs to alter their state of consciousness. If you're astral, you've already altered your state of consciousness. What would the point be? To make is less vivid?

What if their was an astral drug that would densify your astral / energy body body (i.e. add more mass to it). That Way you could project to the RTZ and be seen by others in this 3rd dimension.

You should be able to synthesize something like that on your own in the astral.  We can each have our own personal "imagination meth lab". 

The problem with using drugs to achieve AP or other altered states is that in the "western world" the quality of and connection to the drugs is usually very poor.  What I mean by that is that the people who use substances to induce altered states (like shamans) don't just buy some [insert drug name here] and trip out.  These people have an intimate relationship with the plant that helps them on their journey (I wouldn't trust artificially synthesized drugs like LSD, yes I know it was synthesized from ergot, but the process is entirely different than the one used by a shaman to produce his ally).  The shaman often grows the plant themselves or journeys into the natural environment around them to harvest just enough for their purposes.  They have a reverence for the plant that we often lack in the western world.  The actual process of turning the raw plant into something that can be ingested is one of love.  Each step is important and the process isn't just about making the drug, its a ritual.  What they are doing is a magickal ritual to "invoke" and "worship" the god/dess that lives in that particular plant.  While it may seem irrelevant to a skeptic who is only interested in the science behind the chemical interactions in the brain, the ritual is just as important (if not more) than actually taking the drug.  The reason is that if the plant hasn't been prepared with the "right" perception towards it, the experience won't be the same.  Again, if you're aren't terribly convinced by the animistic side of this, then you won't care.  But, for anyone considering using drugs for AP/OBE, unless you are apprentice to a shaman or have been invited to participate in the experience, then your experience may not be what you expect.  The actual experiences of shamans (and others who use these drugs ritually) has somehow filtered its way (along with mass produced batches of their "drugs") to the western world and our culture just isn't really structured to give the plant the attention it deserves.  It seems like a great way to circumvent the work needed to achieve OBEs but we usually only hear that people like shamans use these drugs to have OBEs, we rarely hear about the whole ritual.  To have the experience that people hear stories about, you have to participate in the whole ritual, from sowing and reaping, to making and taking.

Quote from: Stookie on January 21, 2010, 11:02:58
If you're astral, you've already altered your state of consciousness. What would the point be? To make is less vivid?

I'm not making the connection between all drugs and dulled senses.  Caffeine is a drug too.  Though it wouldn't help achieve OBE if you imagined yourself on caffeine it could energize you, for example.  There is no use discussing psychadelics and things like that unless you have personal experience but those definitely do not dull your senses either.  It's not like alcohol or cannabis.