Hello all.
I have read a good deal of this particular section of the forums and have not, so far anyway, found any compelling evidence, one way or the other, for the existence of or the non-existence of said "negs." It seems to me that both sides of the argument are rather spirited about their viewpoint, which is understandable since this is a very sensitive topic, but if this is the case why hasn't sufficient evidence been provided?
Being curious by nature I wanted to hear both sides. It is difficult to provide absolute proof of this one way or another, as it seems that this is a very non-physical matter, at least from what I have read here so far. I am assuming this is because evidence is extremely hard to get one way or another on this matter?
I would like to ask to hear both sides opinions if possible, but I humbly ask to show what evidence that can be garnered----both for, and against, if possible. I am a very scientific oriented thinker, and like to look at both sides of the argument before coming to any conclusions on any matter. I will admit that I have my own beliefs regarding this, but I wish to put those aside completely if I may so that I can see this from a purely logical perspective.
I am not really asking for a debate here, though I am quite certain that one will spark, if indeed this thread picks up at all, between the two sides. This is, after all, a large forum and I am sure there are a variety of people here, and because of that differences arise, but I truly hope that both sides can just provide their evidence in as much detail as possible and where they got their evidence. Belief, of course, will likely factor in to ones opinion, and this is natural, but the opinion you have now is based on past experiences and knowledge gained from past research/information gained. If one has a compelling experience to give, I would love to hear them, if you are so willing.
I would like to compile the evidence from both sides as this goes on. I would like to look at this from all possible angles, and then see if I can garner enough evidence to logically conclude one way or another if these things are real, or if they are not.
I truly hope to hear from all of you!
This is something I am open minded on.
While I might concede to the fact negative entities could exist, I feel a lot of websites blame near everything on Negs. Girlfriend problem? Negs. Headache? Negs. Depression? Negs. Epilepsy? Negs. Leg pain? Negs etc etc.
Regardless of your spiritual beliefs, the fact that we have a brain, (which to all our knowledge effects how we experience the physical or even if we experience it all) means that defects or changes to the brain can effect our mind and view of reality. I have seen many posts by people who seem to be very depressed, and they're given advice such as taking salt baths and burning incense etc when the best course of action would be to find a good psychologist. I have experience of seeking therapy, and I know that it might take a while to find someone who is right for you. So stating you saw a therapist, and they didn't help, doesn't mean another one couldn't.
We then should take into account the complexity of the mind and how it is formed, and even how childhood experiences can affect a person for their life. Just look at conditions such as multiple personality syndrome to see how many 'individuals' can seem to inhabit the same mind. How easy would it be to accuse such a condition as possession? To just blanket term a multitude of very complicated conditions as a neg problem can cause more harm then good.
I also feel that people can create seeming independent negs through continued belief in such a neg. By this I mean they create a thought form over time. Those of a susceptible mindset could do this a lot quicker.
While I think we should be open minded on such matters, I do believe there is an excess of neg accusations floating around the net.
I agree with you both. I have had about half a dozen experiences with 'negs,' (and I could see them so I'm not just blaming stuff on negs :P ), but I agree that such things could easily be created by the mind itself. The astral is a very thought-sensitive thing. If you want me to describe by experiences I will but I don't think its neccessary.
I have also seen and interacted with other spirits (non-negs) who seem neutral and/or friendly. Is it possible an entity could become 'evil'? What would prevent them? What would encourage them?
What if someone's a psychic vamp before they die? Do they carry on draining others' energies?
I've noticed others on the forum seem to accept the concept of negs without questioning it. Scepticism (as well as being open-minded) is a very important thing, and perhaps this topic will help to encourage others to question these things.
I don't know about the whole mind over matter thing. :roll:
I dismissed all my original experiences in the beginning until it all seemed to tumble down on top of me and I had no choice but to look.
I mean, like, if THINKING they're real creates them, why doesn't the opoosite happen. When I didn't believe in them, why didn't they disappear.
Did that make sense or am I sounding like my usual blonde, bubble headed self? :lol:
QuoteI have seen many posts by people who seem to be very depressed, and they're given advice such as taking salt baths and burning incense etc when the best course of action would be to find a good psychologist. I have experience of seeking therapy, and I know that it might take a while to find someone who is right for you. So stating you saw a therapist, and they didn't help, doesn't mean another one couldn't.
What, Runlola's salt bath that she posted a while back? I thought it was a pretty good idea. I left out the coffee grind though, nothing personal Lo, I just didn't think I could do it.
Honestly, if you're pushing psychiatry on someone, I don't see that as being any different than pushing possession stuff on someone. People need to know who they are to understand what is happening to them. In both cases you are telling the person who they are instead of letting people come into that on their own.
That and when people are freaked, they do not make sentences very well. It's totally like, "AH, YIKES, UGH, JEEZ, HELP!"
You literally have to ask frightened people questions over and over to get a big picture of what is going on. Of course people are going to sound like they're only depressed, you're only getting partial info and part of the picture. You need a lot of info to determine if someone is under attack or mentally unstable. How many illnesses have headache, runny nose, and coughing? Stuff as minor as a cold and as major as something life threatening. That's why you need more info. What if you diagnose a terminally ill person with a cold (sorry, but I see that as being true whether you're in the possession camp or the psych camp, I don't see a difference).
What I do know from my own experience is this. I wrote off all my crap as this or that, I always had a very logical explanation for everything. When I say things got bad, THINGS GOT BAD. I couldn't write it off anymore.
When you ask, "Why don't people start with the psych crap first," well I did. I already went down that route, you weren't there for it. And I'll bet'cha people who come looking here have already started with the psych camp route first too. This place sure as hell wasn't my first choice.
What I mean is: Don't make assumptions about people. It's hard enough communicating when you're freaked, don't make it harder by not listening.
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What, Runlola's salt bath that she posted a while back? I thought it was a pretty good idea. I left out the coffee grind though, nothing personal Lo, I just didn't think I could do it.
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. I didn't know runlola had advocated salt baths. Salt baths are just a common response to neg problems seen around the net.
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Honestly, if you're pushing psychiatry on someone, I don't see that as being any different than pushing possession stuff on someone. People need to know who they are to understand what is happening to them. In both cases you are telling the person who they are instead of letting people come into that on their own.
Psychiatry is not a doctrine taught to the person seeking it, it usually takes the form of such a person discovering the source of the problems themselves and finding their own solutions through the dialogue of the psychiatrist i.e. unless the psychiatrist is very bad, they do not enforce views or opinions on the people seeking their help. Through our current knowledge of the minds structure, they help people help themselves by helping them to articulate their problems. This is a long process that can take many years. Although above I said psychologists. Psychiatrists are different people.
I see the above very different from telling a scared person they are being attacked by an external demon or being which is feeding on their energy.
Firstly, there seems to be little agreement anywhere on these demonic or neg forces. Every guru has their opinion, has their own treatment and most are very happy to overlook areas where natural phenomena explain the conditions.
Secondly, I don't see how building a belief in a neg infestation will help the condition. Apart from rare instances, most of the net is full of how powerful these negs are, how crafty, how hard to beat. By convincing yourself or another of a neg infestation you are setting yourself up for either a lifetime of these symptoms, or a very very long road to recovery.
I also don't see how delegating a problem to a third party (i.e. no longer taking responsibility for its source) is going to help anything. Surely disassociation and a growth of this perceived external entity will ensue?
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You literally have to ask frightened people questions over and over to get a big picture of what is going on. Of course people are going to sound like they're only depressed, you're only getting partial info and part of the picture. You need a lot of info to determine if someone is under attack or mentally unstable. How many illnesses have headache, runny nose, and coughing? Stuff as minor as a cold and as major as something life threatening. That's why you need more info. What if you diagnose a terminally ill person with a cold (sorry, but I see that as being true whether you're in the possession camp or the psych camp, I don't see a difference).
The whole point of my post was the vast majority of websites which talk about negs don't try and get the whole picture. I'd be happy if you could point me to a site or article where the person worried of a neg attack is told it's not, or its just depression. It just doesn't happen. Everything is described as neg attack.
How would you personally differentiate between the thousands of known mental conditions and a valid neg attack?
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What I do know from my own experience is this. I wrote off all my crap as this or that, I always had a very logical explanation for everything. When I say things got bad, THINGS GOT BAD. I couldn't write it off anymore.
When you ask, "Why don't people start with the psych crap first," well I did. I already went down that route, you weren't there for it. And I'll bet'cha people who come looking here have already started with the psych camp route first too. This place sure as hell wasn't my first choice.
Out of curiosity, how many years of therapy did you go through? If that's too personal, what was the exact psych diagnosis of your condition? Don't just say depression, as to see a psych the condition would be more involved then the blanket statement 'depression'. I'm curious to know what they thought.
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What I mean is: Don't make assumptions about people. It's hard enough communicating when you're freaked, don't make it harder by not listening.
I haven't made assumptions. You've made assumptions on what I've written.
From a personal perspective, a hell of a lot of what I've seen classed as symptoms of neg attack I've experienced at times in my life. And not for a single second did I think I was being attacked by an external force, and I overcame these problems through learning about the problem, observing and letting the energies go which were creating them.
My whole point was, yes there might be neg conditions, but from what I've seen on the net, people are too ready to blame negs for everything.
Quote from: AndromacheI don't know about the whole mind over matter thing. :roll:
I dismissed all my original experiences in the beginning until it all seemed to tumble down on top of me and I had no choice but to look.
I mean, like, if THINKING they're real creates them, why doesn't the opoosite happen. When I didn't believe in them, why didn't they disappear.
Did that make sense or am I sounding like my usual blonde, bubble headed self? :lol:
I guess for the same reason a traumatic experience doesn't go away by just stopping believing it happened. Memories and events form structure in the mind which affects other areas. Giving belief to a condition usually sees its effect grow and it become more dominant. Even ignoring such a thing but having fear of it sees the fear make it grow.
And yes I have had first hand experience of this (to do with visual hallucinations which I've seen classed as 'neg attack' in other places – which weren't).
The way to overcome these self built conditions is to slowly take away the energy you fed them, move your attention from them and don't feed them positive or negative emotions. It can take a lot longer for such a condition to be removed then it did to build it. For example, the hallucinations I was seeing (I still see them very slight now) took around 6 years to reduce to almost unnoticeable. During their peak, where I constantly focused on them (it was hard not to) they became more powerful and noticeable until they dominated my every waking moment.
I just find it amazing that people are happy to accept the creative power of the mind, those that believe in the astral accept thought can create anything, yet they are unwilling to accept we can create our own negs.
We each have the creator in us, but people don't want to think we can create bad as well as good (which are both relative terms and mean nothing outside of the emotion/scope we give them).
Edit: I would just like to add that if an underlying condition created a neg belief (and saw the condition delegated to a 'neg'), removing the self created structure most likely won't remove the underlying condition. Help should be sought.
QuoteFirstly, there seems to be little agreement anywhere on these demonic or neg forces. Every guru has their opinion, has their own treatment and most are very happy to overlook areas where natural phenomena explain the conditions.
Secondly, I don't see how building a belief in a neg infestation will help the condition. Apart from rare instances, most of the net is full of how powerful these negs are, how crafty, how hard to beat. By convincing yourself or another of a neg infestation you are setting yourself up for either a lifetime of these symptoms, or a very very long road to recovery.
I also don't see how delegating a problem to a third party (i.e. no longer taking responsibility for its source) is going to help anything. Surely disassociation and a growth of this perceived external entity will ensue?
I don't think negs are belief systems, I think they're something you interact with. I'm interacting with you right now while typing, are you one of my belief systems? Can I just change you at my whim while interacting with you now, or do you have your own mind and will that I have to interact and adjust to?
These things do exist externally to oneself, like you. The comments and arguments you are making sound like a person is a bubble that forms on it's own without outside stimuli. The world is a hell of a lot more complex in structure than you give it credit. You have structures and you're interacting with other structures. And you are not the only one with responsiblity, others have responsiblity too (and interact with you), and you interact with that also.
If I walk to a door, I can't physcially walk through it, I have to interact with my environment. I have to grab the doorknob, turn it, and pull or push the door open depending on how the door functions. You interact with reality and sometimes reality pushes back. Am I delegating my personal responsiblity to a third party because I have to interact with a door.
Nothing personal but it sounds like you made your structure around one concept and you're applying it to everything. Like making the world in your image instead of seeing what is actually there. You don't give people enough credit, they're smarter than you think.
And yeah, I did the psych route several times. I gave up after being repeatedly told I didn't fit any classic pattern of mental illness or depression. Final straw came when I got bit by something invisible, not a hallucination, that was physical stimuli and markings.
Sorry but when you start defining people instead of interacting with them I don't call that mental health, I call that delusional.
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I don't think negs are belief systems, I think they're something you interact with. I'm interacting with you right now while typing, are you one of my belief systems? Can I just change you at my whim while interacting with you now, or do you have your own mind and will that I have to interact and adjust to?
I didn't say negs are belief systems. I said negs can be created through belief. This is well documented. Look up thought form creation and just see how autonomous these self created forms can be, and how they can become independent of the one who created them.
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These things do exist externally to oneself, like you. The comments and arguments you are making sound like a person is a bubble that forms on it's own without outside stimuli. The world is a hell of a lot more complex in structure than you give it credit. You have structures and you're interacting with other structures. And you are not the only one with responsiblity, others have responsiblity too (and interact with you), and you interact with that also.
Can you show me any single shred of evidence these things exist independently of the person experiencing them?
The mind is a hell of a more complex structure than you give it credit for.
Are you now stating that when I create wake initiated lucid dreams and I interact with mind constructs I create, and who appear perfectly sentient and independent, that these things I've just created actually exist independently of me?
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If I walk to a door, I can't physcially walk through it, I have to interact with my environment. I have to grab the doorknob, turn it, and pull or push the door open depending on how the door functions. You interact with reality and sometimes reality pushes back. Am I delegating my personal responsiblity to a third party because I have to interact with a door.
The above makes no sense in the context of the argument.
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Nothing personal but it sounds like you made your structure around one concept and you're applying it to everything. Like making the world in your image instead of seeing what is actually there. You don't give people enough credit, they're smarter than you think.
I take nothing for granted, and I happily dismiss belief systems which no longer hold weight. I used to be a full believer in many things such as neg attacks, but experience has taught me things are not always what they seem.
I won't take things personally, but you yourself seem unwilling to see any other view and are holding on to your beliefs just as you accuse me of holding on to mine.
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And yeah, I did the psych route several times. I gave up after being repeatedly told I didn't fit any classic pattern of mental illness or depression. Final straw came when I got bit by something invisible, not a hallucination, that was physical stimuli and markings.
Have you any photos of these markings?
But even this does not prove anything. There has been evidence of belief alone creating markings upon the body (stigmata is one of the most known manifestations of this.)
QuoteThe above makes no sense in the context of the argument.
Yes it does: the actions I described are INTERACTION with reality. You initiate actions in order to interact with objects, with people and other things. The same is true in reverse.
QuoteHave you any photos of these markings?
But even this does not prove anything.
Ah, poisoning the well, bad arguing style.
No I don't have photos because as frightened as I was at the time my safety was chief concern, not physical proof. I still had no idea what was happening to me, but I ruled out schizophrenia by this point. And I re-iterate, I did not believe in things like this. So how was it created? This is the opposite of what you're describing. The horse is before the cart.
We are not just logical beings or mental beings. We are mental, emotional, spiritual and physical. All of these are important working together. You've cut everything else off except the mental and made your home there. You took one piece of life and made it your entire existence.
QuoteAre you now stating that when I create wake initiated lucid dreams and I interact with mind constructs I create, and who appear perfectly sentient and independent, that these things I've just created actually exist independently of me?
Do you think everything in the astral is a thought form?
Is everything in the astral your creation?
Yes there are things out there that are sentient and independent of you that are not thought forms and do what they need to do to survive. Here's a hint, I don't astral project (not on my own anyway). My crap came out of the astral, I didn't go in after it. Sorry, but I live on the physical plane and have to create actions and interact with reality to get stuff. I don't think it and it happens.
Tell me something, when suggestions on these other astral sites are made, do they really say, "You have a neg, you need to do this now." Or do they say, "Well, try this and see what happens?" And if it is mind over matter, why do things intensify or get worse when something deemed neg offensive is intiated? Shouldn't it get better, it's mind over matter right, the salt bath will fix my problem. How are the replies phrased. Are they really forcing possession stuff, or leaving room for this or that to be and allowing people to come to their own conclusions about who they are and what is happening to them. Are you just over reacting and hypersensitized every time you hear neg?
Neither of you are providing proof of anything really, you are both bullheadedly standing right where you want to mentally on this argument, not giving either person any room for argument. I think I can get a good amount of evidence though.
QuoteRegardless of your spiritual beliefs, the fact that we have a brain, (which to all our knowledge effects how we experience the physical or even if we experience it all) means that defects or changes to the brain can effect our mind and view of reality. I have seen many posts by people who seem to be very depressed, and they're given advice such as taking salt baths and burning incense etc when the best course of action would be to find a good psychologist.
Having lost a very large post because my pop up blocker didn't wish to allow the spell checker to do it's work, I find myself writing this for the second time.
There are in fact very brilliant people with No Brain (http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm), however, your argument still stand. I am going to assume we can claim that we have a psychology and that it has been proven.
IF our psychology changes THEN it gets info and experiences from outside sources, we know this already.
IF outside sources change us THEN any outside source can act as a trigger for healing or destruction, thus we don't know the effects of salt baths psychologically. It has been shown by science that Jacuzzis have healings effects on the mind, however.
QuoteWe then should take into account the complexity of the mind and how it is formed, and even how childhood experiences can affect a person for their life. Just look at conditions such as multiple personality syndrome to see how many 'individuals?? can seem to inhabit the same mind. How easy would it be to accuse such a condition as possession? To just blanket term a multitude of very complicated conditions as a neg problem can cause more harm then good.
By the very definition of the word is this not a possession issue?
Quote from: WikipediaPossession is having some degree of control over something else. Generally, to possess something, a person must have an intention to possess it. A person may be in possession of some property (although possession does not always imply ownership). Like ownership, the possession of things is commonly regulated by states under property law. Languages have several means to indicate possession.
Multiple people in one body creates a problem with the above, I'm afraid. Also, if one personality is negative it could be argued there are neg problems too....
QuoteI also feel that people can create seeming independent negs through continued belief in such a neg. By this I mean they create a thought form over time. Those of a susceptible mindset could do this a lot quicker.
Any evidence of this? If true, then we can state that there are in fact negs, and thus the thread has come to what it was made for. But, to further this:
IF one can create seeming independent negs THEN such things, under definition and workings of a thought form, do in fact become independent over time. This is called an egrogore and said egrogores can be made from many situations. If an egrogore can be made from a thought form then it can affect things externally, and if an egrogore can be made by multiple people then the whole neg mess does, indeed, become as complex as the sites you mentioned stated. None of this is proven, however. I want to see compelling evidence first! this is one page on egregores I have found, there are many more:
http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/gegregor.html
QuoteWhat if someone's a psychic vamp before they die? Do they carry on draining others' energies?
Indeed, a broader question would be would negative people continue their negativity after death? Would this affect other people still living?
QuoteFirstly, there seems to be little agreement anywhere on these demonic or neg forces. Every guru has their opinion, has their own treatment and most are very happy to overlook areas where natural phenomena explain the conditions.
This could simply be appearances because of use of multiple words which mean the same thing or multiple ways of handling a problem.
QuoteThese things do exist externally to oneself, like you. The comments and arguments you are making sound like a person is a bubble that forms on it's own without outside stimuli. The world is a hell of a lot more complex in structure than you give it credit. You have structures and you're interacting with other structures. And you are not the only one with responsiblity, others have responsiblity too (and interact with you), and you interact with that also.
If I walk to a door, I can't physcially walk through it, I have to interact with my environment. I have to grab the doorknob, turn it, and pull or push the door open depending on how the door functions. You interact with reality and sometimes reality pushes back. Am I delegating my personal responsiblity to a third party because I have to interact with a door.
Makes sense, if like the door the neg is external then you can't force it down with disbelief alone.
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And yeah, I did the psych route several times. I gave up after being repeatedly told I didn't fit any classic pattern of mental illness or depression. Final straw came when I got bit by something invisible, not a hallucination, that was physical stimuli and markings.
Here is some compelling evidence, though it won't prove anything I would like to hear about these markings. How bad were they?
QuoteI didn't say negs are belief systems. I said negs can be created through belief. This is well documented. Look up thought form creation and just see how autonomous these self created forms can be, and how they can become independent of the one who created them.
QuoteCan you show me any single shred of evidence these things exist independently of the person experiencing them?
.... you kinda just contradicted yourself a bit. Can I get evidence from BOTH sides here? Please show me the article you found the most compelling on this if you would be so kind, I would be interested in reading it!
QuoteAre you now stating that when I create wake initiated lucid dreams and I interact with mind constructs I create, and who appear perfectly sentient and independent, that these things I've just created actually exist independently of me?
Truth be told you don't know one way or another. Belief is another story.
QuoteI don't think negs are belief systems, I think they're something you interact with. I'm interacting with you right now while typing, are you one of my belief systems? Can I just change you at my whim while interacting with you now, or do you have your own mind and will that I have to interact and adjust to?
Again, belief. Sorry I skipped around a bit but I want to make this as short as possible, as eventually it will get very long winded here it seems.
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Yes it does: the actions I described are INTERACTION with reality. You initiate actions in order to interact with objects, with people and other things. The same is true in reverse.
I mean. What has that got to do with the reality or not of thought forms or belief systems?
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Ah, poisoning the well, bad arguing style.
I am not poisoning any well. To be a cynic, I have known too many people on the net who either exaggerate or tell lies to back up their beliefs. That's one of the problems of the internet; we don't know the other person. So why is it unreasonable to ask for evidence of claims?
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No I don't have photos because as frightened as I was at the time my safety was chief concern, not physical proof. I still had no idea what was happening to me, but I ruled out schizophrenia by this point. And I re-iterate, I did not believe in things like this. So how was it created? This is the opposite of what you're describing. The horse is before the cart.
Ok a scenario (not saying it is yours):
Person A is very stressed, depressed and potentially suffering from hallucinations. These manifestations are difficult to ignore, so person A pays constant attention to them which reinforces them and makes them more pronounced. This is a negative cycle of reinforcement. Person A soon reaches a state near breaking point where their body is suffering extreme stress too. This brings out rashes, or odd markings (I've seen this happen).
Is that an impossible scenario?
To further it:
Later person A is told they are being attacked by a neg. Now he has something to latch his condition on, even if its not a potentially nice explanation, he can sort through his memories and soon sees a pattern of what could be neg attacks. Even those strange markings could have been caused by negs.
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We are not just logical beings or mental beings. We are mental, emotional, spiritual and physical. All of these are important working together. You've cut everything else off except the mental and made your home there. You took one piece of life and made it your entire existence.
Please. How do you know I have taken one piece of life and made it my existence? I have been projecting since earliest childhood. I still project now. I have had experiences with gods, devils, angels, aliens etc. Just do a search on my previous posts. Please don't make assumptions as to my outlook and beliefs just by my stance on this issue.
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Do you think everything in the astral is a thought form?
I really don't know. People who claim they do are just basing that opinion upon belief.
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Is everything in the astral your creation?
It depends on the view you take. If you take the view that we are everything, then on the greatest scale, then yes it is all our creation. On the smaller scale, once again I can't say. All I do know is the astral is very different to each person who experiences it, and even the same event can be interpreted very differently dependant on the person who experiences it and their belief systems.
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Yes there are things out there that are sentient and independent of you that are not thought forms and do what they need to do to survive. Here's a hint, I don't astral project (not on my own anyway). My crap came out of the astral, I didn't go in after it. Sorry, but I live on the physical plane and have to create actions and interact with reality to get stuff. I don't think it and it happens.
But you still have a mind. A lot of the astral is interaction with the subconscious mind. Each and every one of us is much bigger then this small conscious ego. Just because we don't think certain things doesn't mean to say there aren't such undercurrents in the subconscious.
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Tell me something, when suggestions on these other astral sites are made, do they really say, "You have a neg, you need to do this now." Or do they say, "Well, try this and see what happens?" And if it is mind over matter, why do things intensify or get worse when something deemed neg offensive is intiated? Shouldn't it get better, it's mind over matter right, the salt bath will fix my problem. How are the replies phrased. Are they really forcing possession stuff, or leaving room for this or that to be and allowing people to come to their own conclusions about who they are and what is happening to them.
Many do say "you need to do this now".
And these things might intensify because you are facing whatever structure, pain, fear, emotional distress is causing this situation face on. Rather than feeling sits edges you are facing it full in the face. So there could be a flare up or worsening of symptoms.
And no, many do not allow people to come to their own conclusions. On other forms I've had people in public and by PM actually trying to convince me I'm being attacked by negs, or things from my past are the result of neg attack. Also there generally seems to be a large anti-science stance on many forums where people do not look at all the alternatives as science can threaten some of their beliefs, so they choose to ignore what science can teach us and teach neg attacks are the source of the problems (when infact they might not be).
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Are you just over reacting and hypersensitized every time you hear neg?
If I was, I would be posting in neg sections regularly stating my argument and arguing with others. I simply saw a post where people asked for points of view on the neg problem. Then suddenly you attack me. I attacked no one. I even stated I can see that negs might exist. But because my views threaten your neg view you launched an attack on my beliefs.
The reason I don't post here regularly is because I am of the mind that people should be free to follow their own beliefs as long as they don't infringe on anyone's personal freedom.
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Neither of you are providing proof of anything really, you are both bullheadedly standing right where you want to mentally on this argument, not giving either person any room for argument. I think I can get a good amount of evidence though.
As you yourself stated in your first post, it will be near impossible to find any proof of this. My stance is there might be negs, but I haven't seen any first hand evidence, and a lot of neg activity can be explained.
What form of evidence are you hoping to get?
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http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm
Please can you quote something with sources? My partner works in medicine and just last week a child was brought into her hospital that had little to no brain. The parents knew this during pregnancy but wished to go to full term. Since the child was born it has shown no autonomous action apart from automatic breathing. It has little flexibility and reacts with nothing. This alone disputes that un-cited webpage.
I know about hydrocephalus, it is better known as 'water on the brain'. Children can die early from this condition as fluid builds up in the brain cavity, stopping the brain from developing. There are some cases where the child didn't die, but the water forced their brain to grow along the inside of the skull, leaving the centre of the head a fluid filled hollow. They still had the same percentage of brain matter, it was just distributed differently. I think the page you quoted is just exaggerating such a condition to meet its own agenda (again, there are no references to anything, just vague suggestions of universities.
I think to suggest we don't need a brain is just silly else millions with severe brain trauma would not be killed. Or people who become brain-dead or ended up in vegetative states wouldn't be in those conditions.
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By the very definition of the word is this not a possession issue?
Not at all. Possession is an external entity taking over the body. Multiple personality syndrome seems to be multiple personalities arising internally, possibly from server trauma as a child creating a persona which ignore the pain, and the personalities seemingly grow separately over time.
Quote
Any evidence of this? If true, then we can state that there are in fact negs, and thus the thread has come to what it was made for. But, to further this:
IF one can create seeming independent negs THEN such things, under definition and workings of a thought form, do in fact become independent over time. This is called an egrogore and said egrogores can be made from many situations. If an egrogore can be made from a thought form then it can affect things externally, and if an egrogore can be made by multiple people then the whole neg mess does, indeed, become as complex as the sites you mentioned stated. None of this is proven, however. I want to see compelling evidence first! this is one page on egregores I have found, there are many more:
http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/gegregor.html
Well the same evidence can be stated from that which can create multiple personalities. Just because a neg is given life in the mind does not in fact mean external negative entities exist.
And that site you quoted literally could mean 'Mob rule' not a literal connective group consciousness. Do a google on group interactions and how terrible deeds can be caused by a mob which would not usually be caused by any individuals of the mob on their own. If we to take it as more then that, once again it's a belief with no proof to back it up.
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I didn't say negs are belief systems. I said negs can be created through belief. This is well documented. Look up thought form creation and just see how autonomous these self created forms can be, and how they can become independent of the one who created them.
Can you show me any single shred of evidence these things exist independently of the person experiencing them
.... you kinda just contradicted yourself a bit. Can I get evidence from BOTH sides here? Please show me the article you found the most compelling on this if you would be so kind, I would be interested in reading it!
Where was the contradiction? I am talking about internal existence, not independent existence outside of the mind who created them. By independence I mean the person who created them seems to have no control over them i.e. they are independent.
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Truth be told you don't know one way or another. Belief is another story.
But that's the problem. I don't think you will find any form of evidence on this outside of personal belief. If there was, this discussion wouldn't be happening.
My only point was, a lot of what is called neg activity can be explained naturally.
Let's face it, we're never going to be able to agree upon this one.
When I first found this site, three years ago I was naive about conscience projections, even though I had at that point been meditating for 15 or so years and had been experiencing spontaneous projections since around the age of 5yr. And Lucid dreaming was me just dreaming, I thought everyone could control what went on in them.
I spent many years being chased by Zombies and unseen monsters. So....I do know that these negs exist, I never said they didn't. But I have said that the people whom keep finding themselves victims over and over again are doing nothing more than creating the monsters themselves. Of course this is met with great defensiveness, as if I'm taking away a favorite toy or drug.
What ticks me off to no end and why I keep sticking my nose in it. :razz: is the fact that young and impressionable people are being scared, right out of the gate, by chronic negative people. They're not even givin the chance to see that it's their own fears causing the nightmares, or their own fears seeing that shadowy figure while spontaneously projecting. And right away they get caught up in the drama, adrenaline rush or attention that is received. I'm pretty sure a lot of these youngsters are lacking the correct attention from home, hopefully through no fault of their own and I can understand how it would feel to be accepted into the fold.
But instead of being the victim, learn from it, take control and turn your back on it....stop feeding the darkness, it's time to feed the light.
Nay
QuoteAs you yourself stated in your first post, it will be near impossible to find any proof of this. My stance is there might be negs, but I haven't seen any first hand evidence, and a lot of neg activity can be explained.
What form of evidence are you hoping to get?
Any and all, from both sides if possible. Preferring factual evidence here though. You might have noticed my IF-THEN statements, I am trying to come to a logical conclusion based on facts. Haven't gotten very far as of yet but hoping to get some input from members :)
QuotePlease can you quote something with sources? My partner works in medicine and just last week a child was brought into her hospital that had little to no brain. The parents knew this during pregnancy but wished to go to full term. Since the child was born it has shown no autonomous action apart from automatic breathing. It has little flexibility and reacts with nothing. This alone disputes that un-cited webpage.
I know about hydrocephalus, it is better known as 'water on the brain'. Children can die early from this condition as fluid builds up in the brain cavity, stopping the brain from developing. There are some cases where the child didn't die, but the water forced their brain to grow along the inside of the skull, leaving the centre of the head a fluid filled hollow. They still had the same percentage of brain matter, it was just distributed differently. I think the page you quoted is just exaggerating such a condition to meet its own agenda (again, there are no references to anything, just vague suggestions of universities.
I think to suggest we don't need a brain is just silly else millions with severe brain trauma would not be killed. Or people who become brain-dead or ended up in vegetative states wouldn't be in those conditions.
That came from a simple google search on "no brain." It's a bit off topic anyway, my apologies. If interested:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:hm8kRO6S7WUJ:www.metafilter.com/mefi/26688+%22No+Brain%22+human&hl=en
These individuals reference quite a bit.
QuoteWhere was the contradiction? I am talking about internal existence, not independent existence outside of the mind who created them. By independence I mean the person who created them seems to have no control over them i.e. they are independent.
You did clearly state that they become independent in the first quote, actually.
QuoteThe reason I don't post here regularly is because I am of the mind that people should be free to follow their own beliefs as long as they don't infringe on anyone's personal freedom.
Well said! I do hope however you do not leave this discussion, as I believe you are contributing quite a bit!
QuoteLet's face it, we're never going to be able to agree upon this one.
I have not come to any logical conclusion yet, if you were referring to me that is. I believe it is possible to come to a logical conclusion here bereft of belief.
Surely someone is interested in exploring this matter, anyone?
I think it's pretty foolish to say "they are only thought-forms." The people that do this are just taking the extreme they're fighting against, to the opposite extreme.
Why? First, because everyone has a different set of experiences, so just because you've experienced only one side of the coin doesn't mean another side of the coin doesn't exist. It's like people who claim "there is no such thing as god". For that to be an accurate statement, that person would have to know and understand everything possible so he could point out what isn't there. Quite egotistical.
I personally don't know the answer, but IMO anyone who states one way or the other EXPLICITLY is probably wrong, due to the only fact of reality I would admit to "knowing": everything is possible.
Here is a strong argument I will state for "negs are independent of our thought":
Are there people out there on the physical earth that like to hurt other people? If you answer yes, why would you be so opposed to the idea that there are "similar people" in a different dimension of existence, or whatever it could be called.
IMHO, they both exist. But I'm never more than 99.9% sure on anything...
I don't think it's possible to prove it one way or the other. It's the whole subjective experience thing. So, I prefer to belief that they are thought-forms and/or in the mind as it gives me more power over them.
I seriously doubt this debate will actually get anywhere.
Quote from: dingoI don't think it's possible to prove it one way or the other. It's the whole subjective experience thing. So, I prefer to belief that they are thought-forms and/or in the mind as it gives me more power over them.
I seriously doubt this debate will actually get anywhere.
Only because of the attitude being put forth?
I have been reading that supposedly people have seen them crawling under their skin, controlling their movements, and re-writing their brain, surely this could be observed?
QuoteWhy? First, because everyone has a different set of experiences, so just because you've experienced only one side of the coin doesn't mean another side of the coin doesn't exist. It's like people who claim "there is no such thing as god". For that to be an accurate statement, that person would have to know and understand everything possible so he could point out what isn't there. Quite egotistical.
"You can only prove an existence, you cannot prove a non-existence." In other words, even if there is only one case of this being real, that still proves their existence over disproving their existence. I do agree that everyone's experiences count for something though!
The fact that I am not seeing too much compelling evidence is a hint that these things don't exist in my humble opinion, but I patiently wait :)
Patiently await what? I think we've done this one to death. I know since I've been here it's been an on going debate and that was three years ago, so as you can see, it looks like people don't want to argue about it anymore.
Nay
Quote from: Syncro
"You can only prove an existence, you cannot prove a non-existence."
Exactly, which means you cannot say something "doesn't exist" and be sure of it. If one seriously argues "XYZ doesn't exist" or worse "XYZ can't exist" then it just shows a closed perception.
What I don't understand is how people can say the idea of "negs" is "ridiculous" when obviously there are people out there in "physical reality" that would care to harm you. Now why would it be absurd to assume in other "dimensions" there aren't the same things? Absolute wishful thinking perhaps?
I would understand if people said "they might exist externally, but you have more power over yourself than they do.." but most people say either yes or no to their existence. Perhaps it's not so black and white? Yet even if someone believed "we" have more power over "them," that still doesn't mean the possibility of a still more powerful external being is outlandish. For example on the astral dynamics forums it seems to be the general belief that "negs" do exist but we have power over them, or we can defeat them. Yet the possibility of more powerful beings that can completely destroy us is not ruled out, in fact if we are to believe some cases, there may be beings that can indeed completely rip us apart and leave us helpless.
I think it's good to be open to possibility instead of starting a religion against what one perceives to be a religion.
I guess my two cents on the topic is this:
It doesn't matter if they're real or not.
To quote Dr. Phil, about your beliefs about them: "How's that workin' for ya?"
If denying their existence works, then go ahead.
If believing they exist and taking countermeasures work, then go ahead.
The question is, what works for who?
If a person has a problem, how can they be helped?
I think this should be the thing to focus on.
I hope I'm done! :popcorn:
Quote from: CFTraveler
If a person has a problem, how can they be helped?
I think this should be the thing to focus on.
I agree. But if someone is having a problem and someone else tells them their problem can't exist in a certain way that may be possibly existing... :eh?:
as long as that doesn't happen
Quote from: questionQuote from: CFTraveler
If a person has a problem, how can they be helped?
I think this should be the thing to focus on.
I agree. But if someone is having a problem and someone else tells them their problem can't exist in a certain way that may be possibly existing... :eh?:
as long as that doesn't happen
Then they aren't being helpful, and the person with the problem should move on...
(I guess I wasn't really done) :help:
:razz:
Quote from: questionI think it's pretty foolish to say "they are only thought-forms." The people that do this are just taking the extreme they're fighting against, to the opposite extreme.
Why? First, because everyone has a different set of experiences, so just because you've experienced only one side of the coin doesn't mean another side of the coin doesn't exist. It's like people who claim "there is no such thing as god". For that to be an accurate statement, that person would have to know and understand everything possible so he could point out what isn't there. Quite egotistical.
I personally don't know the answer, but IMO anyone who states one way or the other EXPLICITLY is probably wrong, due to the only fact of reality I would admit to "knowing": everything is possible.
Please state a single post in this thread which explicitly states
all negs are thought forms. You are ranting at yourself here. No one has written anything like that. I stated I think the majority of 'negs' are self induced, and I conceded negs might exist. Twisting words and arguing against the ensuing skewed interpretation is pointless.
The whole point was, people are screaming 'negs' at anyone who has near any problem, and they are ignoring conventional ways of treating potential medical problems. It's getting quite silly IMHO.
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Here is a strong argument I will state for "negs are independent of our thought":
Are there people out there on the physical earth that like to hurt other people? If you answer yes, why would you be so opposed to the idea that there are "similar people" in a different dimension of existence, or whatever it could be called.
Yes there might be such people but that logical conclusion is pointless. People on physical earth can be independently viewed by anyone who is here, and unless the viewer has a severe inability to judge emotion then each can state such a thing as: "Based on that person's history of hurting people, we can safely say he must enjoy hurting people, I can see that from the evidence presented".
The astral equivalent would be:
"That potential negative independent entity that the person with the problems can see (but I can't and there can never be evidence of its existence), this being which exists in a place we cannot see or prove the existence of might like trying to hurt people".
That's very different.
Once again:
I am not saying negs don't exist, just that every many and his dog is supposedly being battled by whole armies of negs if you believe everything you see on the net, and I find that very unlikely. I've also experienced directly a lot of stuff I've seen classed as neg attacks and it wasn't a neg causing it for me. These things had a mundane medical reason behind them.
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IMHO, they both exist. But I'm never more than 99.9% sure on anything...
I agree. But as with all things in the astral, even two people seeing the exact same thing at the exact same time would have completely different memories of the experience. This makes gaining any form of proof very difficult (impossible?).
Quote from: question
"You can only prove an existence, you cannot prove a non-existence."
Exactly, which means you cannot say something "doesn't exist" and be sure of it. If one seriously argues "XYZ doesn't exist" or worse "XYZ can't exist" then it just shows a closed perception.
Of course it doesn't. Certain things are so far outside the realms of even potential possibility that they can be discounted to all extents and purposes.
Please tell me what possible good it will do for me to harbour such a belief as my Dog is really God and he reads my mind so I have to think good things, because if I ever think the wrong thing he'll destroy my soul.
personally, holding such a belief would be pretty pointless, and perhaps even detrimental to my long term mental health. So I would discount it. But I guess this makes me closed minded.
Or perhaps prejudging people on narrow criteria shows a closed perception? Nothing is ever black and white.
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What I don't understand is how people can say the idea of "negs" is "ridiculous" when obviously there are people out there in "physical reality" that would care to harm you. Now why would it be absurd to assume in other "dimensions" there aren't the same things? Absolute wishful thinking perhaps?
comparisons with the astral and physical will never hold as they are such radically different places. Certain small areas of the astral might maintain a structure familiar to the human mindset, but that's because of its proximity to the human mind – and our lack of knowledge. We perceive new knowledge through that which we already possess (human biased).
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I would understand if people said "they might exist externally, but you have more power over yourself than they do.." but most people say either yes or no to their existence. Perhaps it's not so black and white? Yet even if someone believed "we" have more power over "them," that still doesn't mean the possibility of a still more powerful external being is outlandish. For example on the astral dynamics forums it seems to be the general belief that "negs" do exist but we have power over them, or we can defeat them. Yet the possibility of more powerful beings that can completely destroy us is not ruled out, in fact if we are to believe some cases, there may be beings that can indeed completely rip us apart and leave us helpless.
But the above is pure 100% belief. And it doesn't explain why some people seem to be incapacitated for just taking a whiff of projection or using a Ouija board and others who project regularly, take risks, have frequently been involved in many occult rituals and taken copious amounts of drugs are neg free. I mention drugs as I have had people PM me saying taking drugs and drinking makes holes in the aura which are filled by negs.
What would be interesting is if people who are being attacked and people who aren't could be psychologically profiled and see if there is any correlation between conventional medical conditions and outlook and neg attack.
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I think it's good to be open to possibility instead of starting a religion against what one perceives to be a religion.
I agree with this 100%, but you are on the side of the religion in this argument. The status quo of neg attacks is to just keep your mouth shut if you have different opinions, as if your opinion differs from the norm you are attacked (like has happened in this thread and by PM). My only view was not all perceived neg attacks are neg attacks, and peoples belief in a possible neg attack can reinforce the negativity (problems) they are experiencing (in the same way an optimistic person seems to have better health and more happier outcomes then a pessimist). I even conceded negs might exist and this still caused people to attack me as I added a slight doubt to their belief system.
Woe betide the person who ever states outright that no negs exist.
MisterJingo,
Why are you taking this as something directed towards you? I didn't direct any of what I said towards you specifically. I was just stating things based on what I have seen here at astral pulse: many people outright deny that "negs, independent of personal thought," exist. Look at the topic of the thread, "do they exist, or not?" This topic is here and people have said it's beating a dead horse because the topic has existed in many forms here over time; essentially my message was that it's foolish to deny a possibility and act on that (often against someone else's perception). As for you saying that some things can be considered impossible, I tend to disagree; even though they seem impossible to some people, that is only because people are input to believe certain things are "possible" and "not possible" when in fact all is possible. Perhaps to you it is impossible that <insert most outrageous thing you can think of here>, but as I see it, everything and anything is possible. I am not on the side of any religion, unless that religion is "deny ignorance (limited perception)" in which I suppose I am a part of. But that's about it...
I am not attacking you; I never said armies of negs must be battled to maintain health, etc. so why defend against that like I did say that?
I could argue all day but essentially I've made my point, however you choose to see it...
Quote from: questionMisterJingo,
Why are you taking this as something directed towards you? I didn't direct any of what I said towards you specifically. I was just stating things based on what I have seen here at astral pulse: many people outright deny that "negs, independent of personal thought," exist. Look at the topic of the thread, "do they exist, or not?" This topic is here and people have said it's beating a dead horse because the topic has existed in many forms here over time; essentially my message was that it's foolish to deny a possibility and act on that (often against someone else's perception).
I only took it as directed at me as you first wrote:
Quote
I think it's pretty foolish to say "they are only thought-forms." The people that do this are just taking the extreme they're fighting against, to the opposite extreme.
And then attacked it in your next posts. As I was the only one who wrote anything similar to this in the whole thread, I presumed it was directed at me/what I wrote. And I've had people pm me saying very similar things.
Sorry if this was not the case.
Quote
As for you saying that some things can be considered impossible, I tend to disagree; even though they seem impossible to some people, that is only because people are input to believe certain things are "possible" and "not possible" when in fact all is possible. Perhaps to you it is impossible that <insert most outrageous thing you can think of here>, but as I see it, everything and anything is possible. I am not on the side of any religion, unless that religion is "deny ignorance (limited perception)" in which I suppose I am a part of. But that's about it...
If you truely believe the above. Just answer me one question:
Why do babies not fly out of their mothers wombs or fly around their homes, or teleport around the earth, or shape shift etc? babies have not been indoctrinated in any belief system, all is possible to their world view, yet they act like the rest of us. Following the exact same rules as us belief-striken adults (yet they haven't been taught these rules of the physical).
The reason I chose a child is because in our 'physical' world they are the closest thing to unbiased innocence we can find.
Although if we think about it, animals, which generally think on an instinctual level never do any amazing acts outside the bounds of their physical limitations either.
I used to believe the impossible is possible (ignoring the contradiction of words) yet such examples as above have shown me this is not really the case. If you think it is, just show me a single example of where the impossible has indeed been possible (I'm yet to find a single example).
Actually,
just because a possibility exists doesn't mean we know about it and know how to comprehend and apply it...
I didn't say "you can fly if you think you can" or "you can fly if you aren't told that you can't fly"
Is it possible that we're all flying right now and don't realize it? yeah..
perception is quite limited,
it's not really something that can be logically explained, because the infinite is outside the bounds of logic...logic is a set of bounds in fact....
:popcorn2:
:grin:
This has gotten quite far off topic, can anyone here give me some examples of neg attacks at least and show their logic as to why they had the neg attack? We've had one individual do so already, but I would like to hear more and perhaps hear some people try to discredit, though undoubtedly that will lead to fighting, but I can hope it won't.
Quote from: runlolaMaybe you should try the 'other' website. You won't find many people
posting about neg attacks here.... click here (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/)
Hmm, seems to be a mixed enough bunch to me, judging from early and latest posts. Nevertheless, seeing 4 pages here is impressive enough. If anyone so happens to comment I will be here.
Now here's something very interesting i just saw posted else where.
There is a condition called Morgellons Disease and here are its syptoms:
Quote
It seems there is a condition known as Morgellons' Disease that is of an obscure nature and that affects thousands of people. Here are the symptoms:
1. Crawling sensations both within and on the skin surface. Often conceptualized by the patient as "bugs moving, stinging or biting" intermittently. Besides the general dermis, may also involve the scalp, nares, ear canal, and body hair or hair follicles.
2. Fatigue significant enough to interfere with the activities for daily living.
3. Cognitive difficulties, including measurable short term memory and attention deficit, as well as difficulty processing thoughts correctly. Described by patients as "brain fog".
4. Skin lesions, both spontaneously appearing and self-generated, with intense itching. The former may initially appear as "urticarial-like", or as "pimple-like" with or without a white center. The latter appear as linear or "picking" excoriations. Even when not self-generated, lesions often progress to open wounds that heal abnormally and usually incompletely. (e.g., heal very slowly with discolored epidermis or seal over with a thick gelatinous outer layer.)
5. "Fibers" are reported in and on skin lesions. They are generally described by patients as white, but clinicians also report seeing blue, green, red, and black fibers, that fluoresce when viewed under ultraviolet light (Wood's lamp). Objects described as "granules", similar in size and shape to sand grains, can occasionally be removed from either broken or intact skin by physicians, but are commonly reported by patients. Patients report seeing black "specks" or "dots" on or in their skin, as well as unusual 1-3 mm "fuzzballs" both in their lesions and on (or falling from) intact skin.
6. Neuropsychiatric symptoms and signs, ranging from mood or personality changes to diagnosed disorders including Attention Deficit Disorder, Bipolar Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and occasionally frank psychosis. Temporal relationship to skin lesion onset is not known
Other commonly reported observations:
Quote
1. Most patients will have sought care from multiple medical care providers. A large number will have been diagnosed with Delusional Parasitosis likely because of the juxtaposition of unexplained skin lesions and sensations and psychiatric overlay. Unfortunately, almost none will have received an appropriate diagnostic physical examination (particularly a microscopic or biopsy examination of lesions), but will have been diagnosed by history alone with grossly incomplete observation.
2. Most of these patients feel abandoned by the traditional medical care system and have sought alternative care providers or have self medicated, seriously compounding an already difficult medical situation
These are from the Morgellons Research Foundation website.
More information on this condition can be found here:
http://www.morgellons.org/
This might in part at least give a scientific foundation to a lot of what is classed as neg activity. I know I've had many people PM me stating such symptoms as proof they are indeed being attacked.
I would suggest people read the site, and if suffering from these symptoms get intouch with Morgellons support group.
I know what it's like to suffer from a seemingly unknown condition. I experienced something for 6 years before I got it recognised as HPPD (Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder). And I've come a hell of a long way since I've been able to put a name to my condition.
Perhaps neg activity might play some part in such conditions. We don't know, but at least it's been recognised - and thats the first step in understanding its cause and finding a cure.
Quote from: MisterJingoNow here's something very interesting i just saw posted else where.
There is a condition called Morgellons Disease and here are its syptoms:
Quote
It seems there is a condition known as Morgellons' Disease that is of an obscure nature and that affects thousands of people. Here are the symptoms:
1. Crawling sensations both within and on the skin surface. Often conceptualized by the patient as "bugs moving, stinging or biting" intermittently. Besides the general dermis, may also involve the scalp, nares, ear canal, and body hair or hair follicles.
2. Fatigue significant enough to interfere with the activities for daily living.
3. Cognitive difficulties, including measurable short term memory and attention deficit, as well as difficulty processing thoughts correctly. Described by patients as "brain fog".
4. Skin lesions, both spontaneously appearing and self-generated, with intense itching. The former may initially appear as "urticarial-like", or as "pimple-like" with or without a white center. The latter appear as linear or "picking" excoriations. Even when not self-generated, lesions often progress to open wounds that heal abnormally and usually incompletely. (e.g., heal very slowly with discolored epidermis or seal over with a thick gelatinous outer layer.)
5. "Fibers" are reported in and on skin lesions. They are generally described by patients as white, but clinicians also report seeing blue, green, red, and black fibers, that fluoresce when viewed under ultraviolet light (Wood's lamp). Objects described as "granules", similar in size and shape to sand grains, can occasionally be removed from either broken or intact skin by physicians, but are commonly reported by patients. Patients report seeing black "specks" or "dots" on or in their skin, as well as unusual 1-3 mm "fuzzballs" both in their lesions and on (or falling from) intact skin.
6. Neuropsychiatric symptoms and signs, ranging from mood or personality changes to diagnosed disorders including Attention Deficit Disorder, Bipolar Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and occasionally frank psychosis. Temporal relationship to skin lesion onset is not known
Other commonly reported observations:
Quote
1. Most patients will have sought care from multiple medical care providers. A large number will have been diagnosed with Delusional Parasitosis likely because of the juxtaposition of unexplained skin lesions and sensations and psychiatric overlay. Unfortunately, almost none will have received an appropriate diagnostic physical examination (particularly a microscopic or biopsy examination of lesions), but will have been diagnosed by history alone with grossly incomplete observation.
2. Most of these patients feel abandoned by the traditional medical care system and have sought alternative care providers or have self medicated, seriously compounding an already difficult medical situation
These are from the Morgellons Research Foundation website.
More information on this condition can be found here:
http://www.morgellons.org/
This might in part at least give a scientific foundation to a lot of what is classed as neg activity. I know I've had many people PM me stating such symptoms as proof they are indeed being attacked.
I would suggest people read the site, and if suffering from these symptoms get intouch with Morgellons support group.
I know what it's like to suffer from a seemingly unknown condition. I experienced something for 6 years before I got it recognised as HPPD (Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder). And I've come a hell of a long way since I've been able to put a name to my condition.
Perhaps neg activity might play some part in such conditions. We don't know, but at least it's been recognised - and thats the first step in understanding its cause and finding a cure.
I haven't read the site in full yet, but so far good stuff :) this seems to be sound evidence.
I have posted these experience a few times in various places but not for a while and not in one place. Since it has been asked for, there is a lot of discussion on these topics recently, and because only one other person has posted theirs, I am going to tell you about my experiences. U might find it interesting and revealing, I hope so. Sorry if its a bit long. I got a lot to tell :smile:
Experience #1:
About oooh maybe 2-3 years ago now, when in my uni holiday I was at the parents place in the Falklands. I woke up in the wee hours (about 3) and saw a dark black figure standing at the bottom of my bed. At first, being slightly sleepy, I thought it was my dear (very much alive) mother. Sit up in bed and "Mum?" says me. It only took half a second for the reality to hit me. Definitely not mum! Lie back down again. Heart starts pounding. Hhhmmm what do I do now? 5 or so seconds later this thing starts to fade out, leaving only the outline, and then a few seconds later it was gone completely. I could not make out any features, since there was only the slightest variation in its black-ness. It was about 5 1/2 feet tall. I then got up, turned on the light, and - still slightly unsure what it was I had just seen - decided that, if it was a deceased and lost spirit, I should pray for it to find the light. Did this, started receiving some very nasty telepathic communication - "f**k your God", to be precise. Went round in/through my head about 5 or so times. Not the sort of thing my mind thinks of on its own....I might add......anyway this confirmed my suspicion. I think I did a light banishing ritual (LBRP) on the room, blessed some water, threw it liberally around the place, and moved to the spare bedroom to finish my nights slumber.
Further to this experience, before I woke up and saw the neg (I am not going to beat around the bush here....), my Dad was having a baaad nights sleep. Having difficulty getting to sleep, and when he did, its wasn't for long, as he woke up with nasty dreams in his head. After my experience, it got even worst. In one of his dreams I was there, and I was possessed, jabbering away in weird languages. That's the only dream he told me he could remember, but i got the feeling he remembered more but didn't want to give me the skinny on them. He was having such a bad nights sleep he oh so nearly got up and moved to....the spare room....where I was sleeping. Fortunately for both of us he didn't attempt this very dangerous option!!!!
Experience #2:
Age 5, for many nights in a row, I was woken up (although i dont ever remember waking or going to sleep), to see black shadows walking past the foot of my bed. One disappeared in the wall on the right, another appeared from wall on left. Continuous procession of them. I was absolutely TERRIFIED in a way that I simply cannot describe (ooooh!! CLICK CLICK CLICK another coin just dropped into place....realisation....woot for me!!!). You would have to experience this to understand. Its not just a personal fear, as you will see in exp#3 in a second :grin:. Oh and add to this complete bodily paralysis. Not a pleasant experience for a 5 year old to go through, no? And not the sort of thing you would expect a very young, pure, mind to create for itself hhmmmm?? In fact, if you think I created this in my own reality and made it so, you've got issues.... :wink:
Experience #3:
Second year uni, I wake up and (cant remember this quite so well now, at least the order stuff happened, but this is what I think it was), I was sleeping in after my GF had left a couple of hours before (mmm).....er anyway. So I wake up, still half asleep though, and hear what sounded like someone saying "you know something we dont" (was sleeping over my running water thang....oh yes....). Then I saw, and it wasnt clear, but the best description is something like a green cycling water bottle suspended in the air above my bed, around 2 foot up above my knees. As soon as I concentrate on this a sudden and powerful wave of full bodily paralysis, accompanied by a sensation of absolute terror, swept up over my body starting at the feet. Fortunately I knew what to do, and immediately jerked my body slightly to the side. This tiny movement was enough to break the hold, and that was that, end of attack.
Experience #4:
Experimenting with one of Mr Bruceys PPSD techniques, one night I decided to draw all the sacred symbols over my body. Just to see what would happen. Next day I go to my Grandmas and meet my Dad in the evening. Turns out he woke up that morning with his arms and legs covered in rashes. Never had anything even a little bit like this before. I had washed the symbols off by 11ish, and similarly my lunch time the rashes had mostly disappeared from his body too. Embarrassing for him, since he was interviewing people for a job that morning LOL.
Experience #5:
Using Bruceys Core Image Removal technique, I was searching my mind for subconscious images relating to my attacks when I was young (#2). Found one that was like a learning mask/face. Applied technique. Sudden and instantly felt a weird energy like buzzing over my entire body, except unlike any other energy sensation I have felt this was spontaneous all over, and the feel was different too (usually with energy stuff the feeling takes time to spread with the movement of energy). 10 minutes later I did the same, this time got same result except the buzzing was limited to my upper body. Next time, nothing.
Experience #6:
I cant remember exactly what technique I was applying this time, I think it was the circle/cross over mole for mole removal. It gave me many of the feelings people are often supposed to get, according to article (ie sickness, stomach cramps, and er etc). Which could be argued to be psychosomatic. Except my dear father got exactly the same symptoms, while on holiday thousands of miles away. They thought he had food poisoning....oops!
Analysis:
OK well I am gonna have to refer back to a convo I had with RB on this, he said that the connections from me to the neg appear to go through my father, like lines of force. This fits with my experience. I should add that my dad had similar to #2 experiences when he was younger, too..... which he rationalised away as figments of his own imagination, I guess because he didn't want to consider the alternatives :roll: - understandable, but not a healthy option.
All the neg removal techniques I applied, I had no expectation that they would work, and some of the things that happened were very odd to me, in that I could not have expected or predicted the outcome. The weird energy buzzing, the powerful effects on my father, were all entirely unexpected, and very telling. Further, in #1 where my dad had a reaaally bad nights sleep this started even before my encounter and while I was asleep, this is further strong proof that's its not all in or a creation of my head, and directly relates exp's #4,5,6 to neg activity. Ie the techniques I used caused knock on effects in him, in the same way as the neg effects were hitting him that night I actually saw it.
The taking exp #2 into account, when I was very young, we see that this could not possibly have been the creation of my own mind. I was a balanced and stable child, this is simply not an option. Further, it ticks all the boxes for a neg attack, and was effectively when they were inserting the control mechanisms into me. And the similarity to what I saw in the Falklands is definitely there (dark shadow like figure past the bottom of my bed). Exp #3 with the voice, the vision, and then the sudden wave of paralysis and fear, again, is not something my mind would create. The suddenness, the strength of the attack, and the other weirdnesses immediately put it onto another level than the sort of fear I create with my mind. Also, this and exp #2 are the only times I have ever experienced full bodily paralysis, and both were accompanied by visuals, neg "tags", and overwhelming fear.
Need I go on? I could, but that's enough, this post is long already.
What all this paints is a very convincing and varied picture of neg activity, from when I was very young, to relatively recently, and including and directly relating to my fathers experiences. From my own perspective, it is impossible for me to think of any other possible explanation than the fact the negative entities are real, nasty, and can have definite objective effects upon us.
From you, the readers, perspective, you are left with 3 options:
1- I am telling the truth, negs are real and exist beyond creations of the subconscious.
2- I am lying (I am not, btw, and I hope my long term participation in this forum and the one before it, not to mention mod status, speaks for itself)
3- That my experiences were somehow the creation of my own mind. Good luck on that one!!! Feel free to try though, I could do with a good chuckle :lol:
And if you got this far, respect!! Hope you found it worth your time.
Rob
Quote from: rob2- I am lying (I am not, btw, and I hope my long term participation in this forum and the one before it, not to mention mod status, speaks for itself)
Didn't help out my arguments.
Are you saying that Robert said that you are having neg problems because of your father's past problems?
I see now that my thoughts and beliefs are no longer welcomed on any forum.... I don't know what is happening but the negative side of things are prevailing. I hope you don't get too embroiled into this neg stuff Rob.. good luck to ya.
I do have a hypothosis about the age of people and
neg problems. How old are you again Rob?...24, 25?
Nay
OK, here is what I think.
If the subconscious mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, does that mean that the subconscious could have created Inguma's experiences, like obviously his conscious mind didn't want them.
I'm sorta basing that on quantum physics and it says consciousness creates reality, and like the subconscious could have created these experiences without you knowing, making them manifest in reality.
I am more than likely wrong :D Just wanted to get that off my mind. I am almost certain that you didn't create them Inguma.
Hey Nay!!!!!!!!!! :dancing:
QuoteAre you saying that Robert said that you are having neg problems because of your father's past problems?
Umm sorta - but that makes it sound like my dad is somehow at fault. Its more that negs hijack the close emotional/energetic ties within the family unit for their own purpose, and use them to form attachments to younger family members and continue like that down through the generations. All the Robert really said about this was going more in depth into the present state of things, how this thing connects to me through him, kinda.
QuoteI see now that my thoughts and beliefs are no longer welcomed on any forum.... I don't know what is happening but the negative side of things are prevailing.
Ehhh?? And how did you come to that conclusion???!!? I do hope my post didnt make you think that it was in any way an attack on you or anyone!:hug:
I have my own experiences, they are valid and important to this topic, and since I learned so much from them I just hope others can too.
QuoteI hope you don't get too embroiled into this neg stuff Rob.. good luck to ya.
heheh thanks. I have given my point of view now, told people where I am coming from, and I dont intend to argue the issue. People can come to their own conclusions. Yeah, its a sticky area to get embroiled in!! Lets of heady emotions and etc.
I am 24. So lets hear your theory then!! And how it relates to the real world experiences I had, would be interesting to hear
-----------------
Donal!!!
Thanks for your opinions!!
With respect to my experiences though, I am unsure how I could have created them when I was 5, and concerning my Dad, did he create these experiences himself too? The rashes, the seeming illness, the bad dreams, all happening when I was doing my stuff or was seeing this thing? Its a difficult point to argue..... :wink:
QuoteI'm sorta basing that on quantum physics and it says consciousness creates reality
Let me guess, What the Bleep? :grin:
cyas!!!
Ok. Just for fun, I'll try and decipher these experiences in a more objective viewpoint. No way am I saying what I have written is true, it's just about getting an alternative viewpoint.
Assumptions:
You seem to be of a mindset that neg experiences exist, and so this would have coloured your remembrances/recording of these events. I'm not saying you lied, just that our beliefs colour our perceptions and memories – and strong beliefs affect our perception strongly.
Experience 1:
First thing to note is that you saw this immediately on waking, and it faded very quickly as you fully awoke.
So you awoke to see something at the bottom of your bed. Even without sleep paralysis, dreams or dream images can 'bleed' into reality. This in itself proves nothing. Here's a thread with similar things:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21949&highlight=zombie
I have always taken this as a peculiarity of the border of sleep, not a negative sentient entity at the bottom of my bed.
Next you had a negative thought. What were your emotions at this time? Having seen something on waking, I'm guessing you would be feeling a degree of fear and/or apprehension. With a belief in negs, this might have translated itself into the words in your head. I think this might be reinforced by the actions you took next. You seem to have a strong belief in negs if you went through all that trouble afterwards.
I can't say why your Dad was having bad dreams.
Just to add, if you have complete control of your mind and subconscious, then you are the first person I have met who has. Many times our mind seems to fight our desires such as we might not wish to think bad thoughts, but such a wish (or holding of such fears) can produce such thoughts – as there is a focus there (even if an indirect focus).
Experience 2:
This sounds exactly like a night terror. Sleep paralysis followed by feeling or seeing something in the room with you. In the countless times I've experienced this I have had many strange things at the foot of my bed (This occurred in early childhood too).
The feeling of terror in such situations is self generated. I guess waking up, not being able to move, seeing strange scary things would be enough to kick in a reflex terror reaction.
Many children experience this, and it's not beyond the mind of a child to imagine. Children imagine monsters under the bed, in the cupboard, in the dark. Why cant they imagine scary things when in a very scary situation with a mind full of hypnopompic images?
Experience 3:
This once again is a night terror, which is sleep paralysis with a state of consciousness bordering sleep so we seem to see dream images override reality (hypnopompic images). The fact movement broke this state proves it was just sleep paralysis. No Negs here.
Experience 4:
I can't really say anything about this. I'd need a lot more information.
Experience 5:
Could be vibrations induced from focussing on mental images? It doesn't spread slowly; it seems to surge over the body in an instance.
This has happened to me on occasion, usually when I'm quite relaxed and for me at least when I'm lying in bed.
Experience 6:
Firstly regarding the symptoms when using this technique, you stated it gave you many symptoms you expected to get. Couldn't a deep belief in experiencing something actually make you experience it when you apply a trigger technique?
It's interesting your Dad experienced this too. I've had a similar experience, where I've projected and that has affected close family members at the same time.
I'm not really sure what this is, but it doesn't suggest any neg activity to me.
Conclusion:
Every experience where you noticed anything visual or aural were either during a sleep paralysis episode (where seeing and hearing things is amazingly common) or right on the border of sleep where such things occur frequently.
The experiences regarding your dad are interesting, but this could suggest a close link between you two. You had a fear of negs, your dad had a neg related dream. You induced a sickness through belief; your Dad felt a sickness too.
In my own opinion I've experienced all of what you wrote in different forms and a lot more, yet not on a single occasion have I felt the need to do banishing rituals or protect myself – I simply have seen no neg involvement in such situations.
You will dismiss everything I say. And that is fine. We each follow our own beliefs. But I really have seen nothing that could be attributed to a neg in the above (in my own experience of such things).
Disclaimer:
There are my views and I am not saying negs don't exist. I'm just giving my view on the experiences in Ingumas post.
Not much I can add to what MJ has just said.
When I said "I see now that my thoughts and beliefs are no longer welcomed on any forum.... I don't know what is happening but the negative side of things are prevailing." I didn't think you were attacking anyone, I guess I was just feeling a bit off kilter. I was banned from the AD site and I hadn't even posted anything.. they just banned me because of my name. I feel that people are taking the negative road alot more these days and was hoping to have the mods see eye to eye and when I read your post it made me feel like I've been yapping for no reason. :razz:
I believe more in the negative energy that has been directed towards me from people here, than the dark shadow that crosses my path from time to time. But even then, I'm not giving it much life.
I was going to wait to get more information about my thoughts on the age thingy but I'll try and give a quick rundown.
I'm turning 39 in less than two weeks and in my childhood the monsters in the closets were, Frankenstein, dracula and zombies. So it was only normal to have nightmares about such things. I was so afraid of Frankenstein....freaked me out. Funny enough the last nightmare I had about him, I gave birth to his baby. :yikes2: Even as a child I was finding ways to abolish the darkside, not hold on to it.
These days with people in your age group the monsters are more realistic. Hell, I can't watch zombie movies these days because I know damn well one day I'm gonna step out of my body only to be confronted by the new and improved version. Kids have been so brainwashed and conditioned to have no emotions about horrific things, thus causing some to look for more of a "kick" because feeling fear is at least feeling something.... It so much more easier to be angry and the victim than being happy with life on this planet.
Then you got people praying on the innocence of others for a dollar. Robert wouldn't be where he is today had he not started this whole PSD bull.... Do you think people would still follow him if he told these people they are living a lie...a lie that he is getting paid for? Of course he is going to tell the people whom go to his workshops that they're being attacked and possessed because otherwise they would stop coming and go find the next genius that tells them what they want to hear so they can carry on to the road to distruction. And now it's not only the person he is speaking to but other family members who can bring this on their loved ones....*puke*
So many people being mislead... it really pisses me off. :protest:
Ahh I really really didnt want to get drawn into discussions over this. But what the heck.
The thing is, your explanations are
at best poorly fitting patches over evidence which consistently points to a more otherworldly explanation. At worst you are making oodles of assumptions, or even getting the facts wrong. Occams razor etc. Simply accepting negs involvement neatly explains everything. Lets see....your points:
QuoteYou seem to be of a mindset that neg experiences exist, and so this would have coloured your remembrances/recording of these events
Nope - not all the time. The experience when I was much younger, I remembered for years, it was only when I came across RB's neg stuff that I had something which I could pin it to. For ages I didnt know what had happened, and my memories of it haven't changed over the years.
QuoteEven without sleep paralysis, dreams or dream images can 'bleed' into reality. This in itself proves nothing.
Maybe, but thats not the only thing that happened, as you know. What adds credibility is the totality of things that happened that night. Also, I have never had dreams "bleed" into reality like this (well, once before I have woken up and seen a strange looking creature sitting above my curtains, but this is debateable whether it was dream substance or seeing into the astral). Added to the other stuff, and your explanation really doesnt fit.
Side note: The majority of "dream bleed" imo is astral sight. Have friends who get this, and the consistency with which it relates to seeing astral denizens is strong. For instance, they wake and see spiders sitting around, even when their dreams are not even slightly spider related. They dont see 8 foot tall clowns with 6 arms eating spaghetti and petting small furry animals, or whatever it is they were just dreaming about (lol).
QuoteI can't say why your Dad was having bad dreams.
I can.... :grin:
And if you cant explain this, which is an integral part of the experience, then......well come on!!!! Btw my dad usually doesnt remember his dreams, and I cant think of another instance when this has occurred. Nightmares are certainly not a common thing for him (ie cant remember him getting them before then or since). And they occurred when a) I wasnt having nightmares myself and b) while I was asleep and c) before and after I had my experience and d) the substance related to neg stuff, neatly removing any possibility that it was my thoughts interfering with him, and adding credibility to the neg hypothesis.
QuoteJust to add, if you have complete control of your mind and subconscious, then you are the first person I have met who has.
Complete control, no, but I never said that (red herring alert!). I do however have a very high degree of knowledge about what goes on in my head through extensive long term self observation. This is something I pride myself on. Also, at the time I was open to any possibility. If I wasnt I would not have prayed for it like it was a lost soul.....
QuoteMany times our mind seems to fight our desires such as we might not wish to think bad thoughts, but such a wish (or holding of such fears) can produce such thoughts – as there is a focus there (even if an indirect focus).
Trust me, I have extensive knowledge of this. But its not relevant here. There was no such counter current at the time. And yes I was a tad afraid, and the voice may possibly at a stretch have been related to all these things, but its not a strong point on its own I only add it as a part of the overall story.
QuoteThis sounds exactly like a night terror.
Calling it a "night terror" proves nothing. This is simply the name the scientific community has given to the phenomenon, since they are incapable of considering the other options we are discussing. Also, if you have studied the medical tests on this, the "this area of the brain lights up", or the "lacking x chemical" explanations similarly dont explain anything, they only explore the specifics of whats going on on a physiological level.
IMO most instances of "night terrors" are neg attacks. But thats another topic.
QuoteThe fact movement broke this state proves it was just sleep paralysis. No Negs here.
Oh come on, it "proves" nothing of the sort!!! Once again, calling it "sleep paralysis" is just a sweeping statement that explains nothing. Why cant moving break a neg induced paralysis? No logic here.... :wink:
Side note: negs IMO take advantage of natural processes. Sleep paralysis may be a natural process. So just because you wake up paralysed, might not mean its a neg attack granted. Its the combination of stuff that indicates this. The paralysis spread with a very unnatural sense of dread (not something which always happens in instances of sleep paralysis). I have never had bodily paralysis except on this and the other occasion(s) I mentioned, both of which had strong neg indicators. Also, people tend to wake into non-neg-induced sleep paralysis. They dont wake up, hear voices, see something hanging above their bed, and then suddenly get hit by it (paralysis), accompanied by an overwhelming sense of fear.
QuoteCould be vibrations induced from focussing on mental images? It doesn't spread slowly; it seems to surge over the body in an instance.
This has happened to me on occasion, usually when I'm quite relaxed and for me at least when I'm lying in bed.
No, I wasnt in a state appropriate to getting vibrations (ie my body was tense, I wasnt in a meditative state like I have to be (for hours) before spontaneous vibrations start, there was no mental vibrations "trigger" going off (dont ask, another completely separate topic!) etc etc). Also I am familiar with the sensation of vibrations, and this was not it. There was no surge involved, it was a sudden and instant feeling all over my body, without any other relating sensations, quite unlike anything I have ever felt before. And why on that image but no others, and then fading away next time? No, it makes no sense.
QuoteExperience 6:
Firstly regarding the symptoms when using this technique, you stated it gave you many symptoms you expected to get.
Actually, I specifically did not say this because it would have been completely untrue!!! I read about this technique, but never gave it a proper go, then decided to try it some weeks/months later with gusto. I specifically remember feeling ill and etc, then going over the article to see if this was common, and then being somewhat surprised to find that all the things I were experiencing were common side effects. So sorry! No cheese for you. :rolling:
And induced a sickness by belief? You're kidding me, right?!!!? My brother is a trained doctor. Thats his profession, one which he passed every exam for with flying colours (oodles of distinctions etc etc). I told him about what I was doing after I heard about Dads "food poisoning" (btw, my bro is
very sceptical regarding all these things). Even he didnt have the cheek to suggest this!! Although admittedly we were talking more about how my dad was getting the same feelings as I was, but still.
Oh yeah, and there are no other instances of my dad getting an illness synchronous with me getting one. Oh and I wasnt ill when I covered my body in sacred symbols, but he came out with rashes, in the same synchronous fashion. Which rules out the option that I caused it in him. No, there really is no simple explanation for this.
Methinks thats enough! And I really dont want to make any more replies like this, its taken up way too much of my time and energy already. I know you meant it in a good way, but I see what Nay said now, easy to get sucked in.
:wave:
cya
Quote from: Inguma
Methinks thats enough! And I really dont want to make any more replies like this, its taken up way too much of my time and energy already. I know you meant it in a good way, but I see what Nay said now, easy to get sucked in.
:wave:
cya
As I stated I was giving an alternative view point, and an abbreviated one at that. My sole intention was that the majority of what you've experienced can have a natural explaination. And as I said, you would dismiss what I said because you are caught in your own belief system.
The line of reasoning you give is akin to the brain is a product of the mind. The great thing about that is you can ignore everything, and believe what you want cause there is no arguing with it.
I guess I choose not to live in such a closed world view.
If you know as much as you say, then you also know that belief and expectation is paramount in astral experiences. I choose not to fill my mind with demons and negs attacking me, and strangely enough, they never do.
I guess people who read this, what Inguma says might be truth, what I say might be true. But when everything is said and done, this is only what Inguma believes and what I believe. It is no absolute truth, just personal belief.
man...where have i been?!? :wink:
what to respond to first??? :twisted:
first. syncro...what kind of proof do you want/need? seems to me this was just a ploy to fuel another argument...although you mentioned it was not.
proof for anything IMO is pretty non-existent itself. all just theories.
(you'll get a lot of those just about anywhere).
and nay...hmmm :wink:
QuoteI do know that these negs exist, I never said they didn't.
COME AGAIN?!?...that almost knocked me out of my chair! oh no, wait...that was a neg! :lol: i'm not going to take it any further than that. i actually think that we're not too many pages away from each other on the whole neg thing to be honest. i think the tension has more to do with you refusing to see me as an intellectual equal...and that my dear is not only a totally different forum all together, but an insecurity. no biggy though.
i think CFTraveler made the best point.
and all my support for Inguma!!!
(it's not worth the energy trying to explain what's outside the cage...half don't care, half don't want to hear it, and all together no one can 'believe' it) it's all about personal experience, not proving & validating ones self, but you already know that.
anyway...seems i missed the bulk of this discussion. most likely best.
someone prove to me that earth is round, and i'll bother proving that these so called "neg's" (for lack of a better word) exist! :wink:
LOVE & LOTS OF FOOD FOR THE LIGHT
soul
Quote from: Souljah333.
someone prove to me that earth is round, and i'll bother proving that these so called "neg's" (for lack of a better word) exist! :wink:
And what if a person has had years of experiences which others have readily classed as neg attack, yet those direct experiences have fuled his belief that negs have no hand in such things?
Is one persons personal experience worth more than another?
Such as this point:
Quote
it's not worth the energy trying to explain what's outside the cage
It seems to me whats outside the cage is a shared belief, and if anyones experiences don't raise the same conclusions - they are automatically labeled narrow minded.
I'd perhaps give more respect to someone who goes against convention (and yes all this neg belief is convention in these circles) and finds their own way, rather than jumping on the most popular belief bandwagon.
Souljah... what do you mean, where have you been?? Hovering and waiting for the right moment to open you mouth. Yeah, that's right.. I saw on the forums hours ago reading away on this topic....why are you acting like this is the first time you've seen it. See..that is why I can't trust you as far as I can throw you..and I would love to try. :heh:
You poke and jab out of pleasure. I'd say you are a walking, living, breathing NEG.. So people, don't fear the negs in the astral, fear the ones right here on these very forums.
If I had no morals like the other site, I'd ban you in a second. :banned: Not to mention a few others whom love to gang up on people.. what in the hell.. ya'll must travel in packs.
Stop fanning the flames and find a happy thought for once in your life.
wow...somebody forget to take their med's!
yeah...i was here for a bit reading through the post before i decided to comment...problem with that?!? was this thread not started a month ago?
what's the last few hours have to do with anything?
plus...i'm pretty sure i'm allowed to walk away from the computer, leave the site i'm at open...and not be concerned with what you think about it.
you're so funny!
anyhow...i'm tired of dealing with YOUR negativity. so there.
ms. projection...ban me?!? for what??? sharing my opinions?
my experience?
ban me bcuz you don't agree.
that's real light & lovely of you.
too much BS for me to make sense of.
---------------------------------------------
and to jingo...i'm not sure exactly what you we're asking in the first part, but the rest...no. of course no one persons experience is WORTH MORE than anothers, but when it comes down to it...that's all it can really be about. you're own experience. not someone else's.
i wasn't trying to get complicated with it.
as for what's outside the cage...all manner of possibilities. in my 30 yrs. of astral & unworldly experience i haven't found many that share the same. maybe touch on a few things here and there, but without limits...there's too much going on for much of anything to overlap. maybe that's the general rule of thumb for people who are just beginning to cross over, but for 'us' seasoned explorers...we're typically way 'out there' alone.
QuoteI'd perhaps give more respect to someone who goes against convention (and yes all this neg belief is convention in these circles) and finds their own way, rather than jumping on the most popular belief bandwagon.
I COMPLETELY AGREE!
SOUL
To neg or not to neg...
For every one person here who can state emphatically there's no such thing as negs, and give the evidence to support it, there's another who can state emphatically that there are negs, and can give the evidence to support it.
The evidence, at best, comes by way of personal experiences.
That's a good thing. Better to learn about something through experience than just the theories of someone who's only ever read books on the subject.
There is, however, one catch to expereince being submitted as evidence. Unless you can experience an event as a pure observer only, without even a small ammount of emotional investment in the event, the details, the "truth" of the event, is going to be coloured by your personal perspectives, and more importantly, your personal beliefs.
For this one main reason I feel the ongoing circles, or in some cases, the downwards spirals of discussion about whether negs are or are not real, are completely pointless. If we're going to have people wanting to talk about negs, I believe it would be far more valuable if we put our experiences forward in terms of what works and what doesn't work, rather than whats real and what isn't
If some people have no desire to delve into the world of negs, and are able to effectively solve their troublesome situations through awareness and personal development of their actions and emotions, then others should consider that as something that works. If some people have a form of protection that they have effectively used against troublesome spirits, then others should consider thatalso as something that works.
If, on the other hand, some people seem to be enduring ongoing, long term problems with either personal actions or emotions, or troublesome spirits, then they should consider that whatever it is they are doing is not working. Time then to open up their minds, their beliefs perhaps, to other ideas, and look for something that does work.
Blessings,
James.
as most here know...i've been 'afflicted' for roughly thirty years. i don't know how i've worded it in the past, but obviously i've never been clear enough about my perspective, or my experiences. all that aside...it's been ten years now since i picked up my first j. krishnamurti book and began learning of this "observer"...i haven't stopped since.
for anyone that's never read krishnamurti (who i believe the be the most knowledgeable in this understanding) there's little point in explaining. what james has brought up is not only a truth, but something i have worked very hard to in the past to overcome. of course...the observer is always present, and she can react at will to & in reflection of a lot of ignorance. i allow her that at times...allow my human-ness, as the behaviours of which are just as intriguing to me, as the unworldly side of things.
i was introduced to the astral at a very young age. there were no books, no forums, nothing. it took me a long time to accept what was going on, and it took even longer to share any of the information. a point that's pushed over and over in this arena...that people who are tuned into the 'whole' of the other-side utilize the experience to justify all the crap that goes wrong in their lives...but for a long time (for me) it was the opposite. everything that was crap in my life, justified/coloured my experiences in the astral (and everywhere for that matter). i am very well aware of this concept. i can't speak for others. i'm not here to hinge my understanding on others beliefs. it effects me not. even my own experiences...now, with the ability to be able to put this 'observer' aside...effects me not. and that won't really make sense to anyone who has never grasped the concept.
does that mean that i write everything of my past off to a twisted, obsessed mind? no, of course not. but i don't throw any weight into it at the same time. they are JUST experiences. nor does it mean that to come from a loving/intelligent & respectful space that i have to pretend to understand 'less' (or more) then i do...or play to anyone's misgivings.
i continue my work in ALL areas, bcuz this is what's available to me.
ideas are changing all the time. frankenstein was a scary dude in the past (nothing more). he's filled out now. people can grasp the complete character...not just the superficial face-value of a monster....and folks are more open to embrace other aspects. the victim, the child, the survivor, the misfit, bcuz we've all been there at some point. i shouldn't use the word neg's in my posting's, bcuz it's a lazy word (in my application) that does not mean the same thing, but at the same time there's little point in me attempting to turn anyone elses experiences around. some people come into contact with these things they don't understand...and i'm here for those only. to help curb the fear, help alleviate some misunderstandings, and i'm capable of seeing the seriousness as well...where it comes into play in peoples waking lives.
there's one mentality i just can't seem to accept (though i try). it's a combination of extreme arrogance & ignorance at once. if someone is confronted with any experience, but in this example...a negative one (a demon, a neg, an injury, or disturbance of some kind). it is neither my place to attempt to turn them away from that experience, define it for them, belittle them for it, or manipulate it for my idea of a greater good)...i believe any of those actions are most destructive. a person enters into ANY situation in order to learn and increased their understanding. curbing that is no ones right, and to me...it's a huge sign of the most severely obsessed observer. the one attempting to do god's work...even god doesn't get involved in the lessons.
i don't understand why this necessarily sets me so far apart?!? why this function gets so deep under the skin of few people in particular. a lot of fear to deal with yet...i guess. a lot of insecurities, and not enough FAITH in other peoples abilities!?! i'm not trying to get rich off anyone elses distress, nor i am poking fun at a trauma, or pushing the extremely limit view of mental dis-ability. i'm not pushing anything at all.
people either feel me on this, or they don't...it doesn't matter one way or the other. people allow themselves to be lead astray, people feel stuck bcuz they don't want to leave the cage, and some people needlessly put themselves in negative situations again and again for the drama & rush. i'm not here to say what's right, and i'm not here as an example as what's wrong. thankfully i feel there is less and less need for that function.
so for some...the youth might represent another dimension of ignorance. to me...i see the opportunity at vastly broader understandings.
and it's about time.
***************************************************
soul
Quote from: soulsome people come into contact with these things they don't understand...and i'm here for those only. to help curb the fear, help alleviate some misunderstandings, and i'm capable of seeing the seriousness as well...where it comes into play in peoples waking lives.
That is great, if it were what you were really doing. When someone comes here and talks about a fear of some shadow or a pain that just appeared after they try to project, you and others right away jump in and start telling them all these horrifying things instead of what
could be just normal experiences one has when starting to explore the astral. The seriousness is NOT looking for the most negative answer but searching for the light in the situation.
Quote from: soulthere's one mentality i just can't seem to accept (though i try). it's a combination of extreme arrogance & ignorance at once. if someone is confronted with any experience, but in this example...a negative one (a demon, a neg, an injury, or disturbance of some kind). it is neither my place to attempt to turn them away from that experience, define it for them, belittle them for it, or manipulate it for my idea of a greater good)...i believe any of those actions are most destructive. a person enters into ANY situation in order to learn and increased their understanding. curbing that is no ones right, and to me...it's a huge sign of the most severely obsessed observer. the one attempting to do god's work...even god doesn't get involved in the lessons.
Yeah, you're not turning them away.... you are trying to get them to embrace it, which IMO is wrong in so many ways. You are not increasing their understanding.....you are increasing their dependence on being the victim instead of letting them know, THEY have the power to take control and understand their fears. And I'm sorry, but you haven't tried to understand as much as you try to belittle and ridicule people whom are in agreement with me...well except James..lol. You still haven't figured out he is saying the same thing as me but surrounds it with candy and flowers. Which of course would work for me! We are after all talking about James, the cutie pie. :grin:
Quote from: souli don't understand why this necessarily sets me so far apart?!? why this function gets so deep under the skin of few people in particular. a lot of fear to deal with yet...i guess. a lot of insecurities, and not enough FAITH in other peoples abilities!?! i'm not trying to get rich off anyone elses distress, nor i am poking fun at a trauma, or pushing the extremely limit view of mental dis-ability. i'm not pushing anything at all.
YOU set yourself apart. I tried in the beginning to be light hearted but was met with ridicule and personal attacks. Now I'm done being all fluffy bunny with you because it's obvious that you deal with and understand anger better. It's getting
almost sad how you don't see the proverbial white elephant standing right in front of you. I've dealt with my fears, it's time you start dealing with yours.
Quote from: soulpeople allow themselves to be lead astray, people feel stuck bcuz they don't want to leave the cage, and some people needlessly put themselves in negative situations again and again for the drama & rush.
So...you were listening to at least some of what I've been saying over the months. Couldn't agree more.
Quote from: souli see the opportunity at vastly broader understandings.
and it's about time.
been there, done that, bought the T-shirt and like I said, it's time to get tough. Ya think perhaps you could practice what you preach?
I know I've said this several times and I'm sure I'll say it again and again. It is a lot easier to be the depressed victim, to look for the worst in any given situation, use excuses and to find evil in everything, then to look within and see what you are doing to cause these fears and symptoms.....because I know all too well that means you have to get real and honest with yourself and I do understand that it can be physically painful. I used hide behind the victim when I was younger, but something in me just wouldn't allow it to keep happening... I wanted more out of life.
Quote from: soulas most here know...i've been 'afflicted' for roughly thirty years.
thirty years?? damn girl, aren't you tired of being the victim? It only works for so long....being the victim and recieving pity from others. Do you enjoy people thinking you are so weak you can't even run your life? I'm sure there are lessons in what is happening to everyone, but one needs to stop taking lessons sooner or later and begin to put it into practice. So turn your back on those demons, negs, devil, and aliens. Life will be just as satisfying. But then again...I'm not sure what you will have to talk about then. Perhaps we can work on getting new topics for you to ponder on, huh? :wink:
Nay
my god nay...just shut up about it already. you're being too obvious.
it's sad. james isn't the one attempting to cover up his actions. it's you.
(always projecting). not only is your 'observer' the most important thing in your existence, but you want to hang that stench on everyone else as well.
(i'm not mad...i'm just tired)
Quoteas much as you try to belittle and ridicule people whom are in agreement with me
girl...you're slippin'!
i'm not going to respond to the rest, bcuz 1) you have no idea what i do & 2) the above statement pretty much sums up how your mind works.
(now matter what i try to say to someone that's paranoid...they're going to take it as an attack) that's fine all the more power to you, and all that. you stay "right" where you're at, and i'll just keep moving along.
as for the 30 yrs. it's my astral experience in total. some folks just seem interested in 'dragging' the negative out of it...not me.
(it was a play on words...not a ply for sympathy).
anyway...
i think anyone with an ounce of intellect can read between the lines of your post and see a real life neg at work. i don't have to go out of my way to point out anything. you do a much better job of it than i ever could.
sorry for YOUR pain.
soul.
MJ I wasnt going to reply to your post, but I am actually slightly hacked off, and am now going to speak a very small portion of my mind to you. Well, at least at first I was hacked off, especially after reading your post a few more times, but now I see the humour in it. Knew I would find a laugh sooner or later!! So thanks for the chuckle!!!!!! But before I start my reply proper, I would like to introduce a little fwiend of miwne to you.....be warned, dont mess!!!!!!
(http://www.home.no/bingobot/fluffy.jpg)
:locolaugh:
Anyway where was I....... :hail1: :hail1: :hail1: :hail1: :soapbox2: ....
- evidently compulsory soapbox: check!
- smilies prostrating themselves at my godliness: check!
Right! Let the rant begin!! :boxing2:
QuoteAnd as I said, you would dismiss what I said because you are caught in your own belief system.
Sorry bro but nothing in your post was new to me - not one sentence! The reason I can dismiss your points is because I can, and believe I just did, comprehensively dismantle every argument you forwarded. Belief is irrelevant, we are talking logic here, and IMO you're arguments were kinda short in that regard. Sorry but thats the way I see it. Oh yeah, and I could say exactly the same as your above comment back at you, but it doesnt get us anywhere, which is why I purposefully avoided commenting on this the first time you said it.
You know, I even started trying to convince myself to try on your beliefs, to see how they fitted, until after a while I realised again that they relied only on a combination of coincidental factors all coming together at the right times and places, none of which happened on virtually any other occasion, leading to an explanation which could not fully explain what I went through anyway. That you had to resort to saying "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" is very telling indeed. The second of many ego and belief driven statements that can be aimed in both directions but ultimately get us nowhere.
QuoteThe line of reasoning you give is akin to the brain is a product of the mind. The great thing about that is you can ignore everything, and believe what you want cause there is no arguing with it.
Eh? Well yes I do think that consciousness goes beyond the brain, thank you for noticing this and pointing it out! And I have good reason to hold this opinion, though I aint going to lower something so precious into
this debate....But! I fail to see how your point has anything to do with anything you are arguing for - quite the opposite, as I see it, it implies a much higher degree of power for the mind, and the ability to create my own experiences.
QuoteI guess I choose not to live in such a closed world view.
The second implication of this is that I do. Get real!!!! On both points. I am the one saying something is possible, you are saying its not. I fail to see how that makes you "open minded"!!!!! :wink:
And as for my not accepting your arguments (ie being closed to them), I have covered that already. Like I said, the same principle applies to your attitudes, only your logic is not as strong, so I would say it applies to you more than I....
QuoteIf you know as much as you say, then you also know that belief and expectation is paramount in astral experiences.
Again, this has little to do with anything, and is nothing more than yet another cheap get out clause... In every single example I gave, and I stated this
clearly and explicitly a number of times in an evidently futile attempt to pre-squish this point of contention, I was not expecting the results I got, or the experiences that happened (and neither was my Dad). With the slight exception of when I saw that thing standing at the bottom of my bed, since I already had a good inkling that negs were real by that point, but in no way was I obsessing over this fact at the time. Conversely, in the days and weeks following, I fully admit to being properly scared at night going to bed
but guess what? No more neg sightings!!! Wow how does that work??? I mean, if your reasoning were correct, then I should have been swamped by nightmares and things standing around my bed. Huh yeah isnt it odd that I wasnt??? Wonder why that is HHMmmmm.....could it be that I actually saw something real, and not something that was a figment of my imagination - which is in essence all you are saying? If this was my imagination, its very odd how I have only ever imagined up a couple of negs, isnt it? And never seen anything else??? FfffffFFfffffs... trust me my imagination extends way beyond negs, but I dont tend to see 5 mile tall gleaming white castles out my window when I wake up (damn hehe wish I did tho that would be cool).
And just incase I am not making a strong enough argument backed with experience, when I had the quick attack, with the weird green thing above me, I was actually under the assumption ("belief" if you like) that the running water barrier I was sleeping over would filter that sort of thing out. So again, your accusation is aaaahhhhh "not entirely compatible with reality"....
Oh yeah, and using this argument allows you to neatly sweep aside any evidence I can put to you that you dont like the sound of (I thought the addition of my fathers experiences would filter this out, guess I was wrong), so its not so much as an argument, as a....well....like I said....an easy get out clause.
Now, unless you have something really nice,
exceedingly compelling, or intentionally funny to say - and are prepared to filter out all the underhand, hidden snipes in your posts before hitting "submit", be a good boy and dont reply to me on this aye? (Or else I might release Fluffy on you, and then you'll be sorry!!!). I would much rather this sorry excuse for a debate we are having ended here. I seriously doubt continuing it will take us anywhere constructive, I feel like I am ....:wall: . But then, I should have remembered that its impossible to challenge beliefs and expect change, or even expect to come out of it not smelling of "au de sewage".
<dismounts soapbox and orders minions to clear orf>
:lol: What, I don't get to be yelled at too?
Why are you so upset Rob? I really fail to see what you are so upset about.. I can't speak for MJ but my opinion is that there are negs, but not on the colossal scale that seems to be happening. And that alot of problems can be avoided by not giving it any energy.. kinda like what you mean when you say giving this argument energy. This has pretty much been my standing all along.. I'm just having to repeat it different ways every so often. :razz:
Are you having problems to date? In all the time I've known you, you've never mentioned neg problems and I never realized that it was this emotional for you... Are there other things going on in your life that might not be so positive that could be causing the upset?
Does the prospect of you being the catalyst for negs bothering you really upset you that much? I know I can ask you these question and not have to fear you are going to get defensive and then personally attack me....least I hope so. :shifty:
Basically I guess what I'm asking is what is so upsetting about the belief, understanding, whatever we should call it, that we create or pull negativity towards us?
Thanks,
Nay
PS.. you're freaking me out...lol. never seen ya so upset. Should I be scared? :scared3:
:wave: Heey Naay!!!:wave:
Quote from: Nay:lol: What, I don't get to be yelled at too?
RaaAAAaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Better?!
:lol:
Quote from: NayWhy are you so upset Rob? I really fail to see what you are so upset about..
Do I come across as so upset? I promise its not intended!! I was more trying to be funny while at the same time presenting strong arguments in favour of what I am talking about. Although I do admit to being a tad angry for a very brief period of time when I noticed what I thought were veiled jabs at me. But yeah, guess this is an issue I do feel fairly strongly about.
Oh yeah, and I guess it would be fair to tell you that, if you can categorise people into various personality groups, one way to do so would leave me in the obsessive compulsive group (dont say anything chicken or egg chicken or egg lalalalala), and we types dont like having people telling us we are wrong about things which are close to the heart! In fact, I generally dont talk about things that are close to heart for this very reason. Its hard sometimes.
Quote from: NayAre you having problems to date?
Naa, quite the opposite, my life has taken an upswing of late and things are moving. Which is good!! As for negs, I haven't seen or really thought about the whole thing in quite a while. But ya know, these topic, I thought I should add my experiences since they are varied and IMO compelling.
Yeah, things are peachy at the moment. I am mentally stronger than I have been in quite some time, which is pretty much the only reason I am allowing myself to talk about and argue this subject in such depth, and allow my hot-collared-ness to come out in type.
QuoteDoes the prospect of you being the catalyst for negs bothering you really upset you that much? I know I can ask you these question and not have to fear you are going to get defensive and then personally attack me....least I hope so. :shifty:
You stupid stupid evil girl!!!! Hehehe joke joke joke tehehehehe
:bouncy:
Anyhow!
I am afraid I dont fully understand the first question :grin: . I dont really see myself as a catalyst for negs, but I am not entirely sure I know what you mean by that!
QuoteBasically I guess what I'm asking is what is so upsetting about the belief, understanding, whatever we should call it, that we create or pull negativity towards us?
Absolutely nothing, and I completely agree with this point of view. But with respect to my experiences, I do feel some small tick of annoyance at people who say that a 5 year old (or in other cases I have seen and heard about, young babies not even walking yet) would or could do such a thing to themselves on the scale that I experienced. Yeah, I do find that point of view kinda sick, to tell the truth. And, it sounds far too much like trying to blame someone - like "its your fault u got negs/are imagining them, u should stop being so damn negative".
QuotePS.. you're freaking me out...lol. never seen ya so upset. Should I be scared? :scared3:
Aww sorry!!!! Noooo dont be scared!! And thanks for your concern!!! Actually, and this might seem kinda twisted from your end, but the fact that I am here and allowing myself to display heady emotions in these forums is more of a good sign. I am very well at the moment thanks Nay, all is well is the Land of Rob.
hearts7
Rob
Quote from: runlolaQuote from: NayI can't speak for MJ but my opinion is that there are negs, but not on the colossal scale that seems to be happening
it really doesn't seem to be happening on a COLOSSAL scale...
There is a small minority that shows up around here compared
to the rest of the world. It seems you think EVERYONE that posts ANY
experience is just imagining things. What gives you the right or
knowledge to minimize everyone's pain?
If you read up on other sites, yeah, it is happening on a COLOSSAL scale. I have to admit here that I'm a tad surprised by your comment, yet not completely. For those whom aren't aware or came late in the game...Runlola has never had high praise for me and that's ok. I was wondering when you were going to come out of the closet, per-say. I guess my last post was your undoing...
When have I minimized everyones pain? Has no one been actually reading what I'm laying down?
:lol: I swear I keep getting a flash of the, "mutiny on the bounty"
Back in the day when I was asked to be a moderator here, I was so grateful. All the mods were open and kind.....then, well, something happened.
Now allow me to address the next post. :roll:
Quote from: robDo I come across as so upset? I promise its not intended!!
yeah...you did and that is why I asked. I really hope you aren't being passive aggressive.. ya know the kind.... where people act all nice, yet aren't really meaning it...
Quote from: robNaa, quite the opposite, my life has taken an upswing of late and things are moving. Which is good!! As for negs, I haven't seen or really thought about the whole thing in quite a while. But ya know, these topic, I thought I should add my experiences since they are varied and IMO compelling.
Yeah, things are peachy at the moment. I am mentally stronger than I have been in quite some time, which is pretty much the only reason I am allowing myself to talk about and argue this subject in such depth, and allow my hot-collared-ness to come out in type.
Nothing wrong with going with feelings and allowing that anger to come out. We'd all be batty if we didn't allow those
truthful emotions to come out! I'm glad things aren't funky for you at the moment.
Quote from: robYou stupid stupid evil girl!!!! Hehehe joke joke joke tehehehehe
LOL! yeah, that's it, let it out. No need to say joke. I got the jest of it. :grin: I admire people being honest with their feelings.. and if you find me evil, then GREAT! And please think on that for a minute...I mean it...really reflect on it.
Quote from: robI am afraid I dont fully understand the first question Very Happy . I dont really see myself as a catalyst for negs, but I am not entirely sure I know what you mean by that!
I meant catalyst, in the sense that YOU are the beginning....see?
Quote from: robAbsolutely nothing, and I completely agree with this point of view. But with respect to my experiences, I do feel some small tick of annoyance at people who say that a 5 year old (or in other cases I have seen and heard about, young babies not even walking yet) would or could do such a thing to themselves on the scale that I experienced. Yeah, I do find that point of view kinda sick, to tell the truth. And, it sounds far too much like trying to blame someone - like "its your fault u got negs/are imagining them, u should stop being so damn negative".
I've been that 5yr old... has NO ONE read my older posts??? I opened myself up sooo wide for you people and you didn't see it. Frankly, that is reason to be ticked! But...I got over it and saw that it wasn't time to be seen. And I DO understand that it is hard to admit/see that owning ones faults is hard... I suppose you didn't read that in my last post. *sigh*
Do you guys actually think I enjoy being hated by you?? Do you actually think I get some sick joy out of it? ummmmmm... answer..NOOOO! I spent most of my life....ya know what..never mind. I started to reach for the "hear my heartbreaking story" but not today.
I'll own my own pain...
Still adore you Rob... :sunny:
Quote from: runlolaUm, how do you know when someone is actually having a
neg problem or when they are just imagining things?
that is what I don't understand from you. You say negs exists
but then you treat people as if they all imagining things.
I thought that I read that you saw ghosts, angels or something,
how do you know you are not imagining that?
It's official..no one is reading what I'm saying. I don't think people imagine things...well, some...let's say, embellish their "attacks" to be cool, victim, whatever... but negs are like friggin fleas..you flick them off and they are GONE!!! they have nooooooo control over your soul, your being, your brain...NOTHING. Ok...deep breath..lol...*whewwwwww*
Ok..now I'm hearing twilight zone music.. :lol:
And yes, I've seen ghost, one angel and some negs..LOL! Change your dark glasses for some lighter color ones.... :pray:
PS.. we are in need of some new emoticons...
Ok. To start with, I have no interest if you believe negs exist or not. My reply to your first post was simply to put a different spin on instances you have interpreted as neg attacks. My reason for doing this is that I have experienced such things, my father and brother have experienced such things, it's nothing new to me – things like that have been happening to my family for my entire life. I just see no need to attribute it to external entities.
I choose to briefly reply because I didn't want to argue, and my second reply was simply biting my tongue – again, as I don't see any need to start arguments as it's apparent you are fixed in your beliefs.
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Sorry bro but nothing in your post was new to me - not one sentence! The reason I can dismiss your points is because I can, and believe I just did, comprehensively dismantle every argument you forwarded. Belief is irrelevant, we are talking logic here, and IMO you're arguments were kinda short in that regard. Sorry but thats the way I see it. Oh yeah, and I could say exactly the same as your above comment back at you, but it doesnt get us anywhere, which is why I purposefully avoided commenting on this the first time you said it.
Ok. I'll answer parts of your previous post here and I'll use this logic you claim to be using:
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Maybe, but thats not the only thing that happened, as you know. What adds credibility is the totality of things that happened that night. Also, I have never had dreams "bleed" into reality like this (well, once before I have woken up and seen a strange looking creature sitting above my curtains, but this is debateable whether it was dream substance or seeing into the astral). Added to the other stuff, and your explanation really doesnt fit.
Side note: The majority of "dream bleed" imo is astral sight. Have friends who get this, and the consistency with which it relates to seeing astral denizens is strong. For instance, they wake and see spiders sitting around, even when their dreams are not even slightly spider related. They dont see 8 foot tall clowns with 6 arms eating spaghetti and petting small furry animals, or whatever it is they were just dreaming about (lol).
Firstly, just because you have never had dream images bleed into reality on the border of sleep doesn't stop it being a possibility. There are countless documented records of this happened, so much so to argue against such a thing as being impossible is just silly IMO.
Now above you talk of Logic, then you make a statement that in your opinion this is "astral sight". This is not a logical fact, it is a belief. Astral sight is a term which has no basis in a logical or scientific framework what-so-ever. It is simply an hypothesis (with no empirical evidence) based upon a belief.
Secondly, seeing spiders is increasingly common in this state. Please just google this. These spiders are not astral beings, they are a well known hallucinatory image related to webbing hallucinations (one of the base forms of hallucination). You can search this out yourself, but if I remember correctly, webbing hallucinations originate from the webbing of veins across they retina – they are usually filtered out of our visual processing but can be seen under certain circumstances. Waking up with a mind full of dreams, seeing webbing, spiders associated to webbing, we see spiders on the pillow/bed etc. Yes I have seen this myself, both the webbing and spiders (I have also seen this in a fevered illness).
Just because many strange experiences have happened together does not necessarily mean there is a link between them. The human mind loves links, it loves patterns, but the patterns it finds do not necessarily have any basis in reality.
SO the above could have been dream images, hallucinations and a coincidence. How many times has your Dad had a bad dream he couldn't remember? He could have bad dreams most nights, but forgot them (as you said he rarely remembers his dreams, and waking someone during REM does help recall), on the night in question he was awoken by you with the dream occurring so it stuck fresh in his mind. That is not outside the realms of plausibility surely?
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Calling it a "night terror" proves nothing. This is simply the name the scientific community has given to the phenomenon, since they are incapable of considering the other options we are discussing. Also, if you have studied the medical tests on this, the "this area of the brain lights up", or the "lacking x chemical" explanations similarly dont explain anything, they only explore the specifics of whats going on on a physiological level.
IMO most instances of "night terrors" are neg attacks. But thats another topic.
I called it a night terror because that's its most common name. I should have just called it sleep paralysis with hypopompic imagery? (or hypnogogic if it was a paralysis gained when falling asleep).
The reason the scientific community are incapable of considering the other options we are discussion is because there is not a single empirical fact to suggest such things are real. If there was, science would consider them.
The medical explanation for this is simply the mind starts to surface from sleep but the motor control areas of the brain retain their paralysis hold on the muscles – a simple malfunction.
Now your second use of logic, you now state most instances of night terrors are neg attacks. This is once again a belief and nothing more. If you have empirical evidence which can be verified independently and reproduced, please supply it, because we need things like that to prove either way the existence of negs.
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Oh come on, it "proves" nothing of the sort!!! Once again, calling it "sleep paralysis" is just a sweeping statement that explains nothing. Why cant moving break a neg induced paralysis? No logic here....
So you want to use logica, yet you want to throw away every shred of scientific evidence and use belief constructs instead. Why?
Isn't "IMO most instances of "night terrors" are neg attacks" a sweeping statement too?
The difference is I am trying to fit things in a scientific framework where you are basing observations on belief structures.
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Side note: negs IMO take advantage of natural processes. Sleep paralysis may be a natural process. So just because you wake up paralysed, might not mean its a neg attack granted. Its the combination of stuff that indicates this. The paralysis spread with a very unnatural sense of dread (not something which always happens in instances of sleep paralysis). I have never had bodily paralysis except on this and the other occasion(s) I mentioned, both of which had strong neg indicators.
I have talked many times on this forum about a form of sleep paralysis I have experienced hundreds of times, it's a form which is increasingly difficult to break. It seems to me this might be a very deep form of trance i.e. we have awoken but our brain wave state is still perhaps theta or very low and so we have very sluggish responses. This does more often than not have a fear reaction and hallucinations.
I have been experiencing this stuff weekly/multiple times a week since my earliest memories allow. I really have never seen any need to attribute it to negs. In this state I have seen more things than I could possibly ever recount, had strange tactile sensations, things screaming/speaking in my ears. Fear driven hypnopompic scenarios. Why add negs?
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Also, people tend to wake into non-neg-induced sleep paralysis. They dont wake up, hear voices, see something hanging above their bed, and then suddenly get hit by it (paralysis), accompanied by an overwhelming sense of fear.
Yes they can. Please do a search on sleep paralysis case studies.
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No, I wasnt in a state appropriate to getting vibrations (ie my body was tense, I wasnt in a meditative state like I have to be (for hours) before spontaneous vibrations start, there was no mental vibrations "trigger" going off (dont ask, another completely separate topic!) etc etc). Also I am familiar with the sensation of vibrations, and this was not it. There was no surge involved, it was a sudden and instant feeling all over my body, without any other relating sensations, quite unlike anything I have ever felt before. And why on that image but no others, and then fading away next time? No, it makes no sense.
If you imagine that image now, does it cause the same effect? If not, then it might not have been that image but an accumulation of the mental work you were doing which was felt at a time point of that image.
Here are a few examples of similar things to what you experienced:
1) I went and lay on my bed. I only can induce vibrations on my back (sleep paralysis induced vibrations not included). I was lying on my side and thought about taking a nap, not really comfortable yet and I had been on the bed for around 1 minute. I had lots of imagery going on behind my eye lids, and then I saw what seemed like a dance scene, a man was dancing erratically, then suddenly I was hit by vibrations. I also had a visual interpretation of them – it looked like watching an un-tuned TV channel. Out of this a hand formed which was clenched in a fist and it opened in front of my face. I now pulled out of a paralysis which had formed and sat up to write the experience down.
2) I was making a drink and all of a sudden I was hit by vibrations and very noticeable change in consciousness. This hit me out of nowhere. For about half an hour afterwards I was paranoid and convinced a flat mate had spiked my drink with ecstasy (they hadn't). This experienced lasted for about 4 hours and was pretty extreme.
There is a lot more than the above, but they show instances where vibrations or weird sensations can hit without warning. I didn't feel the need to attribute them to a neg, just to the complexities of the mind.
I'm not going to pretend I or even science knows everything. It will carry on learning forever. Just because something might not explain a certain situation now, does not mean such a thing is outside of sciences scope. A lot more than you and I know has been discovered, it's just a lot of it doesn't make it into the public domain. I read scientific journals frequently, and I am amazed at how much phenomena has been explained which I had no idea about – and yes, some of it explains experiences I've had.
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And induced a sickness by belief? You're kidding me, right?!!!? My brother is a trained doctor. Thats his profession, one which he passed every exam for with flying colours (oodles of distinctions etc etc). I told him about what I was doing after I heard about Dads "food poisoning" (btw, my bro is very sceptical regarding all these things). Even he didnt have the cheek to suggest this!! Although admittedly we were talking more about how my dad was getting the same feelings as I was, but still.
Oh yeah, and there are no other instances of my dad getting an illness synchronous with me getting one. Oh and I wasnt ill when I covered my body in sacred symbols, but he came out with rashes, in the same synchronous fashion. Which rules out the option that I caused it in him. No, there really is no simple explanation for this.
My sister is a trained Doctor, my girlfriend works in medicine and I have friends who are doctors too.
Are you trying to say that you cannot make yourself ill through belief or suggestion? Rather than dig up literally thousands of documents which say the opposite, I could use a personal example of my niece. She kept getting sick, and after years of tests there was literally nothing wrong with her (and no, no negs here).
With more investigation it turned out she can make herself be sick just from the desire to do so, she used this as an attention seeking ploy – the reason for which am personal and I'll not go into here.
We are talking about negs here not all instances of paranormal activity. I agree it's interesting that your Dad got ill at the same time. Where was he on holiday? Is it totally outside the realms of possibility it could have been a bug or something?
Even if there is no explanation (and you fail to use coincidence), the point I was making was that I see no need to attribute this to negs what-so-ever.
Conclusion:
Perhaps I missed it please show me where you used Logic and where you dismantled my points? All I saw was belief on your part with no logical process. I am not criticising, I am responding exactly to your comments above.
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You know, I even started trying to convince myself to try on your beliefs, to see how they fitted, until after a while I realised again that they relied only on a combination of coincidental factors all coming together at the right times and places, none of which happened on virtually any other occasion, leading to an explanation which could not fully explain what I went through anyway. That you had to resort to saying "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" is very telling indeed. The second of many ego and belief driven statements that can be aimed in both directions but ultimately get us nowhere.
Please quote where I said "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" because I have scanned my reply and can find nothing which even alludes to that. Putting words in my mouth and arguing with them is simply arguing with yourself.
My point was, a lack of explanation does not mean negs had to be involved. Lots of unusual things happen daily, are negs behind all of them simply because we can't explain the whys now? That's a logical deduction for above.
I agree it gets us nowhere, which is why I didn't want to write a post like this because ultimately it gets us nowhere, creates ill feeling and starts arguments.
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Eh? Well yes I do think that consciousness goes beyond the brain, thank you for noticing this and pointing it out! And I have good reason to hold this opinion, though I aint going to lower something so precious into this debate....But! I fail to see how your point has anything to do with anything you are arguing for - quite the opposite, as I see it, it implies a much higher degree of power for the mind, and the ability to create my own experiences.
My whole point in this is we either adhere to science or we throw it out of the window. If we adhere to it, and try and discover the reasons behind this phenomenon using its principles, we have a direction to go in.
If we throw it out of the window, we might as well shut such forums as this down as we are simply regurgitating belief and walking round in circles.
I did have beliefs that we are more than our brain, but now I sit on the wall because I'm brave enough to admit to myself I really don't know. All the fabulous things I've seen in the astral is not proof if confined to self. It's just belief.
By attributing everything to negs, and denying scientific explanations for such phenomena, we are throwing science out of the window.
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The second implication of this is that I do. Get real!!!! On both points. I am the one saying something is possible, you are saying its not. I fail to see how that makes you "open minded"!!!!!
And as for my not accepting your arguments (ie being closed to them), I have covered that already. Like I said, the same principle applies to your attitudes, only your logic is not as strong, so I would say it applies to you more than I....
The implication of this is that (not just you) the vast majority of people base their entire knowledge and experience on second or third and concepts.
I have projected since childhood, I have read most gurus work on what they perceive the astral to be. Yet, all this is their words and their concepts. If I take it on board without testing its validity, then I am building a house of sand.
To believe totally in science, or to believe totally in an all encompassing belief system is to be closed minded. To be open minded is to be open to the fact that our beliefs might be false.
For example, I could ask you what the subconscious is, no doubt you can give me a dictionary definition or similar, but that is just words. I know what the subconscious is supposed to be, but that is only someone else's terminology. I don't know it on a 'personal' level. Perhaps eating third hand knowledge and building a world view of beliefs is enough for some people, but it is not for me.
Astral philosophy is so littered with such third hand constructs (which many people read about, in the astral their belief is made manifest and so reinforcing it) but it doesn't mean those constructs have any basis in reality.
Please. You keep talking about my logic, yet I have yet to see you actually use any. Your arguments so far are either belief (Sleep paralysis is neg attack. Lack of explanation is neg attack etc).
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Again, this has little to do with anything, and is nothing more than yet another cheap get out clause... In every single example I gave, and I stated this clearly and explicitly a number of times in an evidently futile attempt to pre-squish this point of contention, I was not expecting the results I got, or the experiences that happened (and neither was my Dad).
With the slight exception of when I saw that thing standing at the bottom of my bed, since I already had a good inkling that negs were real by that point, but in no way was I obsessing over this fact at the time. Conversely, in the days and weeks following, I fully admit to being properly scared at night going to bed but guess what? No more neg sightings!!!
Firstly, it was not a cheap get out clause, it was a ploy to save me writing such a post as this and a reluctance to start a pointless argument.
My point was (yet again) nothing you experienced has to be attributed to negs. If you read earlier posts in this thread, I mentioned how seemingly strange experiences can be re-catalogued as anything if one wishes to do so. For example, you had some interesting but standard experiences. Later in life you learnt about negs, and suddenly you are converting these experiences into neg attacks. No doubt as time goes on you will remember other strange experiences and they will become neg attacks too.
One of the main functions of the brain is to 'drink order from chaos', that is, to find and match patterns.
The fact you saw no more neg sightings simply means you saw no more neg sightings.
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Wow how does that work??? I mean, if your reasoning were correct, then I should have been swamped by nightmares and things standing around my bed. Huh yeah isnt it odd that I wasnt??? Wonder why that is HHMmmmm.....could it be that I actually saw something real, and not something that was a figment of my imagination - which is in essence all you are saying? If this was my imagination, its very odd how I have only ever imagined up a couple of negs, isnt it? And never seen anything else??? FfffffFFfffffs... trust me my imagination extends way beyond negs, but I dont tend to see 5 mile tall gleaming white castles out my window when I wake up (damn hehe wish I did tho that would be cool).
Please point to the reasoning you mean. I'm not even going to reiterate my point again.
Where have I stated that a belief in negs makes one have daily or nightly neg attacks? I don't see what this has to do with anything.
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And just incase I am not making a strong enough argument backed with experience, when I had the quick attack, with the weird green thing above me, I was actually under the assumption ("belief" if you like) that the running water barrier I was sleeping over would filter that sort of thing out. So again, your accusation is aaaahhhhh "not entirely compatible with reality"....
Oh yeah, and using this argument allows you to neatly sweep aside any evidence I can put to you that you dont like the sound of (I thought the addition of my fathers experiences would filter this out, guess I was wrong), so its not so much as an argument, as a....well....like I said....an easy get out clause.
Seeing a 'green thing' in a paralysis state is not a neg and I have made no accusations. I have simply reinterpreted you experiences, from the view point some of my
own experiences which have mirrored those you put in your post.
To use your logic, if you went as far to sleep over running water (which implies you neg belief is much bigger than you are letting on) and you still saw a 'green thing'. Surlely that proves it couldn't have been a neg in your belief system (ie the running water should have stopped it). The fact you are willing to still believe it's a neg, when belief defences you hold should have stopped it, says more about where you are coming from than I.
The evidence you have presented so far is experiences I myself have been having since childhood, and some interesting experiences involving your father. The experiences with your father
could have been coincidence (there is no way for us to know) or they could have had a paranormal explanation. Either way, the only thing which introduces negs into the picture is your belief (once again, I see no need for negs in any of the situations you have written).
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Methinks thats enough! And I really dont want to make any more replies like this, its taken up way too much of my time and energy already. I know you meant it in a good way, but I see what Nay said now, easy to get sucked in.
I didn't want to make this reply but you goaded me into it with attacks. I really don't see the need.
I really am not attacking you. What you have experienced is very similar to things I have been experiencing since childhood, and so I thought I would put a non-neg view on those experiences. There was no ulterior motive or plot, and no desire for arguments or attacks.
Hey hey!!
QuoteI really hope you aren't being passive aggressive.. ya know the kind.... where people act all nice, yet aren't really meaning it...
Hummm, to you? Nope! Not even the slightest. Think you have a heart of gold and are wonderful :thumbsup: Honestly.
QuoteWe'd all be batty if we didn't allow those truthful emotions to come out!
Each to their own!!! I know its a healthy thing for you, but for me, even if I express truthful negative feelings to someone, then I feel bad for it afterwards, worry about it, and generally feel terrible. Makes things much worst for me, which is why if I am het up about something I try to never post until its passed, and even then, I have to exercise extreme restraint and re-read and edit my post loads of times before submitting to make sure I dont feel like dirt after posting. Trust me, its for the best!! :smile:
QuoteLOL! yeah, that's it, let it out. No need to say joke. I got the jest of it. I admire people being honest with their feelings.. and if you find me evil, then GREAT! And please think on that for a minute...I mean it...really reflect on it.
No need to reflect! I dont and never have hated you or thought u even slightly evil - as I have said, quite the opposite, I know you have the best of intentions and frankly thats what counts most in my book.
QuoteI meant catalyst, in the sense that YOU are the beginning....see?
Hummhummmdeedumm. Well, its not something I ever really considered before. Oh no thats a lie, I have discussed neg stuff with friends and family occasionally and then wondered afterwards if it was a good idea, if I was starting something unnecessary and/or bad in their head. But I always analyse my reasons, and look deeply into the issue, and sometimes feel bad when I realise they are hanging on my words and I was subconsciously using this to my advantage to get an ego boost from their need for me driven by fear of what I was saying. Yeah, done that a couple of times, pretty poor to say the least, but now I spotted that its not such an issue any more. I certainly dont sweep it under the carpet!
QuoteQuoteAbsolutely nothing, and I completely agree with this point of view. But with respect to my experiences, I do feel some small tick of annoyance at people who say that a 5 year old (or in other cases I have seen and heard about, young babies not even walking yet) would or could do such a thing to themselves on the scale that I experienced. Yeah, I do find that point of view kinda sick, to tell the truth. And, it sounds far too much like trying to blame someone - like "its your fault u got negs/are imagining them, u should stop being so damn negative".
I've been that 5yr old... has NO ONE read my older posts??? I opened myself up sooo wide for you people and you didn't see it.
Heeey there, I know you have and I read many of the things u said (OK well not all, I skimmed much of this topic and only posted when I saw that dude I forget name of asking for people to type more experiences, but I will go back and read I promise :crybaby: :reading: ). What I said wasnt aimed at you in any way, it was more of a general comment on that attitude.
Much :heart1:
Rob
ps away for a few days, prob speak next when I get back
Hahahahahaha! damn! You're good! :grin: I feel guilty already..hehehehe.
Quote from: robEach to their own!!! I know its a healthy thing for you, but for me, even if I express truthful negative feelings to someone, then I feel bad for it afterwards, worry about it, and generally feel terrible. Makes things much worst for me, which is why if I am het up about something I try to never post until its passed, and even then, I have to exercise extreme restraint and re-read and edit my post loads of times before submitting to make sure I dont feel like dirt after posting. Trust me, its for the best!! Smile
All kidding aside.. it is not healthy to hold in emotions that need to get out. Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying it's a free for all and for you to cuss out every person that ticks you off....oh, wait, maybe I am..LOL!
Quote from: robHummhummmdeedumm. Well, its not something I ever really considered before. Oh no thats a lie, I have discussed neg stuff with friends and family occasionally and then wondered afterwards if it was a good idea, if I was starting something unnecessary and/or bad in their head. But I always analyse my reasons, and look deeply into the issue, and sometimes feel bad when I realise they are hanging on my words and I was subconsciously using this to my advantage to get an ego boost from their need for me driven by fear of what I was saying. Yeah, done that a couple of times, pretty poor to say the least, but now I spotted that its not such an issue any more. I certainly dont sweep it under the carpet
Before I even finished reading this I thought you were "thinking too much" about it. So why is it a bad thing if others find your words worth hanging on?
About reading my past posts... I was referring to two and half years ago..LOL. I was a fountain that just wouldn't stop.. :lol: Oh, god...it's embarrassing now..all those personal details. I've learned to hold my cards a little closer to my chest, well...as close as I can get to my ample bosom. :peace:
Nay :laugh7:
Oh what the heck, its a good post u made and bearing a nice tone (thanks for that), I will answer a few of your direct q's and some other points:
QuoteSO the above could have been dream images, hallucinations and a coincidence. How many times has your Dad had a bad dream he couldn't remember? He could have bad dreams most nights, but forgot them (as you said he rarely remembers his dreams, and waking someone during REM does help recall), on the night in question he was awoken by you with the dream occurring so it stuck fresh in his mind. That is not outside the realms of plausibility surely?
But in that dream I was possessed - thats just too odd. And he was waking and going back to sleep all that night, not just when I had my experience, which is most unusual for it. Combined with the fact that my other experiences have knock on effects to him - I think its well beyond the realm of coincidence.
QuoteThe reason the scientific community are incapable of considering the other options we are discussion is because there is not a single empirical fact to suggest such things are real. If there was, science would consider them.
...really? It took something like 7 years before the scientific community and free press accepted reality of manned flight, even with thousand of people witnessing the Wright brothers and their planes. I could give many times many examples of this, its something I have explored extensively, and the same attitudes are in place today as there were then. Eg huge amounts of data exist in the realms of parapsychology (psychism etc), sometimes with some very noteable figures championing it, yet this is not commonly accepted or discussed material.
Btw reams of data proving the existance of spirits and etc exists, although I admit its hard to find it sometimes.
QuoteNow your second use of logic, you now state most instances of night terrors are neg attacks. This is once again a belief and nothing more. If you have empirical evidence which can be verified independently and reproduced, please supply it, because we need things like that to prove either way the existence of negs.
OOhh that would take a while. Maybe some other time. But its more the collection of linking data that does it for me, rather than any one thing. Its not a firm belief of mine, more a working hypothesis.
QuoteI have talked many times on this forum about a form of sleep paralysis I have experienced hundreds of times.....Why add negs?
Curious I admit. IMO its again a logical link between interrelated sets of data. We will agree to differ. I might come back to this in a few days tho.
QuoteI was making a drink and all of a sudden I was hit by vibrations and very noticeable change in consciousness.
Bizzarre!! Very odd I admit. Except like I said, for me it was definately a different feeling/energy signature/etc to normal vibrations, and occured when I was searching for neg realted stuff. And while you might get vibrations and etc hitting regularly, for me its not common at all and takes a long time to get to an appropriate state for them.
Good points though.
QuoteI read scientific journals frequently,
Cool, same.
QuoteMy sister is a trained Doctor, my girlfriend works in medicine and I have friends who are doctors too.
Are you trying to say that you cannot make yourself ill through belief or suggestion?
LOL OK, fair. I knew it was weak when I posted it, I really shouldn't have. Again though, to come back to the main point, its the fact that I was not expecting this and had no (conscious) knowledge of these symptoms thats the clincher for me, so I dont see how I could have induced them myself. Combined with the fact the syptoms were spot on with those prescribed in said article. There is more to this, again unrelated and half related topics I have read up on over the years, about energy links to events and things to physical traumas and injuries, but I wont go into all that here.
QuoteI agree it's interesting that your Dad got ill at the same time. Where was he on holiday? Is it totally outside the realms of possibility it could have been a bug or something?
Even if there is no explanation (and you fail to use coincidence), the point I was making was that I see no need to attribute this to negs what-so-ever.
Yes, IMO its just too much for coincidence. Consider: Same symptoms, same timing, no bugs/etc came up in the tests done on him. Combined with the incident of his dream when I had that experience than night, and the totally unexpected rashes which happened that other time. The links between whats going on with me and happening with him are just too strong to be coincidence. And that this was a neg-links-removing exercise, as were the protective warding symbols I drew on myself, and the dream he had (neg related remember) were when I saw what I thought was a neg. Again, too many links drawing parellels to neg activity. Further, about the sympathetic response he had, I can only place my finger on one other incident even slightly like these three, which happened in my early childhood. So! The only times it has happened were when there were strong neg indicators. Too strong to dismiss, IMO.
Hmm, I am sure the above could be much clearer, but you get the idea.
QuotePlease quote where I said "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" because I have scanned my reply and can find nothing which even alludes to that. Putting words in my mouth and arguing with them is simply arguing with yourself.
hahaha funny! First post dude, near the start:
QuoteI'm not saying you lied, just that our beliefs colour our perceptions and memories – and strong beliefs affect our perception strongly.
QuoteMy whole point in this is we either adhere to science or we throw it out of the window. If we adhere to it, and try and discover the reasons behind this phenomenon using its principles, we have a direction to go in.
Hhhmm, I adhere to scientific principles wherever possible but I am always on the lookout for other people (and yes myself) allowing belief etc etc filters to get in the way of this process, or just making bad science.
QuoteBy attributing everything to negs, and denying scientific explanations for such phenomena, we are throwing science out of the window.
Science should include everything, the failure I see in this regard is its materialistic physical approach and belief of the vast majority of scientists to get in the way of applying scientific principles to otherworldly issues. So I dont think invoking negs necessarily means abandoning science, but more extending it in a way that most scientists cannot.
QuoteI have projected since childhood
Nice! I am jealous :razz:
QuoteFor example, I could ask you what the subconscious is, no doubt you can give me a dictionary definition or similar, but that is just words.
oOOoooh no I wouldn't dare! I would make suggestons of what I know through experience, then shrug and say "so much I dont know". "Man who believed his wife was a hat" book etc (sure u have read, great book!!).
QuotePlease point to the reasoning you mean. I'm not even going to reiterate my point again.
Where have I stated that a belief in negs makes one have daily or nightly neg attacks? I don't see what this has to do with anything.
You implied my imagination created the experience. Yet it has only ever created neg like experiences, nothing else, nor has dream bleed created anything else. The same can be said of experiences by friends of mine. And if it was fear driven imagination created, then why when I was actually afraid did I not see more? For you to consider more than a question btw.
IMO even invoking archetypes about spiders in this area of discussion leaves big holes here.
QuoteTo use your logic, if you went as far to sleep over running water (which implies you neg belief is much bigger than you are letting on) and you still saw a 'green thing'. Surlely that proves it couldn't have been a neg in your belief system (ie the running water should have stopped it). The fact you are willing to still believe it's a neg, when belief defences you hold should have stopped it, says more about where you are coming from than I.
It was the similarity to other experiences I have mentioned that made me come to this conclusion, combined with the other things that happened at the time. Voices leading to green vision thing leading to paralysis/fear whacker.
QuoteI didn't want to make this reply but you goaded me into it with attacks.
Oops, sorry! Seriously, I guess I was being out of line, sorry about that.
Anyway, your last post was of a high quality, thanks.
Rob
Quote from: NayHahahahahaha! damn! You're good! :grin: I feel guilty already..hehehehe.
Bwahahahahahaha I win!! :woot:
Lol, it was not my intention to make u feel guilty though.
Quote from: NayAll kidding aside.. it is not healthy to hold in emotions that need to get out. Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying it's a free for all and for you to cuss out every person that ticks you off....oh, wait, maybe I am..LOL!
LOL!!!
But hey, you are right. Although I dont
always hold them in, I just release them in a way nobody else can see :ninjahide: .
Quote from: NayBefore I even finished reading this I thought you were "thinking too much" about it. So why is it a bad thing if others find your words worth hanging on?
Hey, that I can cope with - although the ego boost it gives does make me uncomfortable. Its more when I make neg suggestions and scare the living hell out of them that I feel bad for it!!!!!!
QuoteAbout reading my past posts... I was referring to two and half years ago..LOL. I was a fountain that just wouldn't stop.. :lol: Oh, god...it's embarrassing now..all those personal details. I've learned to hold my cards a little closer to my chest, well...as close as I can get to my ample bosom. :peace:
TEEEeehehehehe I remember well!!!! But hey, you said it yourself, better out than in right?? And it was all good stuff, people are here are, in the vast majority of cases, mature enuff to handle it.....maybe even the stuff you told me in private (um, well maybe anyway :wink: :lol: ).
And ample busoms....I like it :yippee: Yey Nay has large breasts! I like you even more ROFL!!!
Rob
And now I really really REEEAAALLY have to go to bed!!!
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Oh what the heck, its a good post u made and bearing a nice tone (thanks for that), I will answer a few of your direct q's and some other points:
I worry about saying too much or the wrong thing when I get carried away in a post. I'm not really out to disprove anything; I've had strange experiences too and am looking for answers. I think discussion from all view points is valuable and helpful :).
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...really? It took something like 7 years before the scientific community and free press accepted reality of manned flight, even with thousand of people witnessing the Wright brothers and their planes. I could give many times many examples of this, its something I have explored extensively, and the same attitudes are in place today as there were then. Eg huge amounts of data exist in the realms of parapsychology (psychism etc), sometimes with some very noteable figures championing it, yet this is not commonly accepted or discussed material.
I think the difference between then and now is how fast information is communicated and the devices we have at our disposal to help communicate evidence quickly.
I haven't got the figures on me, but its something crazy like in a recent year (I can't remember which one off the top of my head) more scientific papers were published than every scientific paper in history proceeding that year – and there are more scientists alive today then if you add the numbers of every scientist through every age who ever lived (in recorded history of course). I guess part of this is due to the exponential increase in population, but it also shows just how fast science is accelerating.
I'm not going to state all areas of science are open minded, but I think scientists of today are perhaps more open than previous generations.
The problem with parapsychological research to date is that it is very hard to produce under laboratory settings, and even hard to produce reliably. I agree there is masses of data there which suggest some amazing things are going on, but until it can be put into some form of objective framework it will remain on the fringes of science. But conversely, I think a lot of what we term paranormal might be explained in natural terms once the research is done (like recently there was an article about ball lightening in New Scientist, and potential mechanisms of action).
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Yes, IMO its just too much for coincidence. Consider: Same symptoms, same timing, no bugs/etc came up in the tests done on him. Combined with the incident of his dream when I had that experience than night, and the totally unexpected rashes which happened that other time. The links are just too strong to be coincidence. And that this was a neg-links-removing exercise, as were the protective warding symbols I drew on myself, and the dream he had (neg related remember) were when I saw what I thought was a neg. Again, too many links drawing parellels to neg activity.
I admit that a lot of things happened which seem to put it outside the realms of coincidence but I guess I find it hard to relate such things to negs because in my similar experiences I've found other explanations. This in itself makes me questions such things i.e. similar experiences but very different view points, what part does belief play in this?
Just because I'm hesitant to attribute things to negs does not mean I discount all paranormal explanations.
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hahaha nice! First post dude, near the start:
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I'm not saying you lied, just that our beliefs colour our perceptions and memories – and strong beliefs affect our perception strongly.
To put this into context see my previous point. Two people can experience very similar things, yet give very different meanings to such experiences. The only thing that differs is belief (your belief in this being neg activity, my belief it isn't). I'm not saying you attributed it to negs at the time, even in hindsight will do.
So it seems our different outlooks are colouring perceptions of events to such a point we give different causes for them.
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Hhhmm, I adhere to scientific principles wherever possible but I am always on the lookout for other people (and yes myself) allowing belief etc etc filters to get in the way of this process, or just making bad science.
I agree with the above. I used to be very much led by belief, and I went through a pretty traumatic time when I looked at my beliefs under a critical light and dropped a lot of them. I didn't discount these beliefs totally, but I moved them from where I had stored them as 'knowns' to just possibilities.
I'm sure a lot of my earlier posts to other forums are hanging about on the net where I used to argue against sceptics with my viewpoints I had acquired predominantly from Monroe.
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Science should include everything, the failure I see in this regard is its materialistic physical approach and belief of the vast majority of scientists to get in the way applying scientific principles to otherworldly issues. So I dont think invoking negs necessarily means abandoning science, but more extending it in a way that most scientists cannot.
I agree with this. But I'm also of the belief that science will eventually catch up on such areas and prove/disprove them either way. Science is very much in its infancy, but I think over the past two centuries it has show some real signs of maturity.
I feel we need more people doing research into these areas, even if just on a personal level. One thing I think which hinders research into this area is the sheer amount of 'belief' taken as fact. I think it is possible to remain objective and have these amazing spiritual experiences.
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oOOoooh no I wouldn't dare! I would make suggestons of what I know through experience, then shrug and say "so much I dont know". "Man who believed his wife was a hat" book etc.
This is good to see ;). In my more belief driven days I had an enlightenment and really saw how much of my current world and self understanding was based on external knowledge of others.
I'm not too much concerned about world knowledge, because I think science does a good enough job so that experiments can be walked through and the truth of them seen. I just find problems with the more subjective sciences (not with their findings, just taking their terminology on at face value).
Quote
You implied my imagination created the experience. Yet it has only ever created neg like experiences, nothing else, nor has dream bleed done so. The same can be said of friends of mine. And if it was fear driven, then why when I was actually afraid did I not see more? For you to consider more than a question btw
Things like this aren't easy to answer as there could be a tremendous amount of factors which play a part.
For example, I have had sleep paralyses experiences all of my life yet even now I still sometimes have panic reactions. Recently I awoke in a sleep paralysis state, my mind was still a bit cloudy with sleep and the paralysis state had some pretty severe sensations with it. I first panicked (reflex), but then decided to try and project. I rolled out of bed and found myself grabbed and threw against the wall. There was a being shouting random stuff at me and I felt real fear and anger.
I got back into my body and the vibrations were still strong so I went back out, this being was still there but it seemed to have aspects of my brother. I decided to attack the being and just pushed my mind forwards. (This is hard to explain because if I don't reason it out I can do anything – such as in a past experience people seemed to be throwing stones at me so I made myself it a large monster and charged them, picking them up and throwing them etc, and another I was in a block of flats with a huge hole in the wall. For some reason a car was sitting here and there was two very argumentative women. They finally annoyed me so much, after one got in the car I pushed it out of the hole, but then I felt bad so I stretched my arms down to the car as it was falling and pulled it back into the building.)
I fought the being off and then headed for my living room, the experience ended not long after.
This being seemed to be a direct manifestation of the fear and unpleasantness I felt just prior to projection, and then taking attributes of my brother seemed to draw direct parallels with childhood issues regarding him (I have no idea why they surfaced at that point, perhaps the anger/fear I was experiencing triggered a memory which it resonated with).
Anyway, back to the point. There seems a direct link between fear and neg experiences in the astral, one projects/touches projection with some form of fear, more often than not that fear manifests in some way.
Friends generally have similar view points, and if you discuss such matters, that could be a link to why your experiences are similar.
During these times with fear, did you have any other paralysis or projection episodes at all? And if so did they have neg elements or not?
Just to finish, I'll just detail a few experiences which is what caught my attention when I read about you and your dad.
When I started to consciously attempt to project (I would go to bed early and spend a few hours each night trying) my brother who slept on a bunk bed above me started to have paralysis and energy episodes and also some pretty scary projection experiences (things pulling his legs and he'd have to hold onto the ground to stop being pulled into the sky).
My brother has no interest with anything one could term spiritual or religious; he's the archetypal sports buff who likes a drink. Before my projection attempts he never experienced anything like this to his memory, and since I moved out of home, he hasn't experienced anything since.
One occasion he was in Cyprus, and he was continuing to have paralysis episodes which seemed to link up to times when I was either projecting or attempting to project.
Something similar happened to my room mate at university, he suddenly started projecting, and having fear reactions because of this (figures grabbing him etc).
I have a few more experiences like this, one where I was seemingly seen while out of body, but I have no hard evidence to back it up.
As you can see, I've had some shared experiences, and to be honest, I can't explain why. It seems personal and/or physical proximity was a prerequisite for them.
This is why I suggested there might be link between your Dad and you, but it might not be a neg related link. Perhaps your Dads nightmare precipitated your neg experience, or your seeming neg experience caused your dads nightmare. I really don't know.
I guess my point is that although it is your prerogative to believe what you will, we shouldn't be so unbending in our belief as to ignore everything else (I'm not accusing you of this; I just see it enough times on spiritual forums to be depressing).
I really believe we can make things happen in this field if we go about it the right way.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! :grin:
There ya go!! :notworthy: That's much much nicer and more fun to read.
(http://www.websmileys.com/sm/obscene/eck16.gif)
QuoteI really hope you aren't being passive aggressive.. ya know the kind.... where people act all nice, yet aren't really meaning it...
:laughing4: OMG...that's too funny coming from you.
QuoteDo you guys actually think I enjoy being hated by you?? Do you actually think I get some sick joy out of it?
hmmm????QuoteI spent most of my life....
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...I opened myself up sooo wide for you people and you didn't see it.
just a little wider...just one more time.(http://www.weprintcolor.com/stockimages/construction/images/Black%20metal%20crowbar.jpg)
Quote... but negs are like friggin fleas..you flick them off and they are GONE!!! they have nooooooo control over your soul, your being, your brain...NOTHING.
wow...that works huh?!? :roll: have you ever thought that maybe neg's don't like to be around you? since there seems to be this colossal struggle that a lot of folks are having, and you just breezed through the whole thing completely unscathed?!? that's so strange.
why don't you tell 'em what it was really like...when the zombies crawled out of the quite darkness to devour you. why don't you try getting in touch with your humble side, and relating to people...instead of always tossing that joker card around. i've never, ever seen you really open up. not here anyway. you really have a nack for treating people unfairly. not me, bcuz i couldn't care less...but others that are striving to understand.
it's just my personal opinion of course, but i really think you've got a lot of growing up to do when it comes to respecting other people, their opinions & experiences, and the time-frame in which they accomplish their lessons.
you know...what you dish out come backs three fold.
from what i've seen...you've got a lot a words to eat.
QuoteIt seems to me that both sides of the argument are rather spirited about their viewpoint, which is understandable since this is a very sensitive topic, but if this is the case why hasn't sufficient evidence been provided?
probably because in the paranormal you are dealing with forces that are SELF-AWARE, very UNLIKE sticking a germ in a petri dish and studying it under a microscope... i am getting so tired of explaining this concept... the very methods used by science tend to be worlds apart from the nature of the psi activity that they claim to show an interest it... and what do you mean by "why has sufficient evidence been provided"?.. you mean sufficient evidence for *your* satisfaction? well, that is purely subjective, isn't it?
and what do you mean by "if this is the case".. if both sides are spirited, there should necessarily be sufficient evidence for *you* to be convinced? god, it is always so obvious when sh*t stirrers appear on the horizon... look, if you have read so much about it, and are still not convinced, WHY ON EARTH would you still be asking for reasons why you have not been convinced? obviously, it is just not for you.. which is fine... you don't have to believe in any of this stuff... that's ok.
no hard feelings, but i think you were on valium when you posted this... just stop it.
I have been taking an interest in this thread and following it for a while now. I have found it stimulating, probably because I have no firm fixed beliefs when it comes to negs. I am more inclined to try and help the person help themselves, rather than find out whether what they were experiencing was "real" or not. It's as real to them as my experiences are to me.
But I have just a few tiny things I'd like to pick up on. I wasn't going to interrupt, but you know when something plays on your mind... so...
Quote from: Naybut negs are like friggin fleas..you flick them off and they are GONE
Perhaps some people are simply not as strong/strong-willed/gung-ho/mature about negs as you are Nay?
Think of it in terms of smokers. Look at the number of different ways of stopping smoking we can choose. Patches work for some, willpower works for others, etc., etc. If someone smokes and wants to stop, but finds that certain ways aren't working, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were
only pretending they want to stop. It's just that they haven't found the way that works for them. And to help them, it might be more productive to show compassion/understanding and suggest a few ideas that they might not have thought of.
Moving on...
Quote from: NayBack in the day when I was asked to be a moderator here, I was so grateful. All the mods were open and kind.....then, well, something happened.
What's this all about? And why in public?
Quote from: NayI feel that people are taking the negative road alot more these days and was hoping to have the mods see eye to eye and when I read your post it made me feel like I've been yapping for no reason.
Huh? Is that a prerequisite for being a mod? I would just like to say that I thought Adrian invited each of the moderating members to do the job because he believed we were relatively trustworthy/responsible to have a few more buttons so that we could delete/move posts, that kind of thing.
I don't want members to get the impression that the mods have weekly meetings discussing the issues that are posted about in the Forums, to reach a "group" decision on a particular viewpoint.
And I want to stress again, that the moderators are members
first and foremost, with their own personal opinions about the subjects discussed. We are not cliquey – in fact if you put all the mods in a room together, we'd probably be arguing within 10 minutes, a fight would break out and Adrian would have to step in. :lol:
Being a moderator does not give us an "elevated" status when we are active on the Forums. We simply have extra buttons. That's all.
I just wanted to clarify that as it's important to me. I don't want to be seen as someone "high and mighty" just because I've got the word 'moderator' under my name. I guess it's one of my little gripes.
Thanks.
Sarah
Back to the interesting discussion...
selski,
sound input. i think it's difficult for most people to be handed any kind of status and not get their ego out of whack. it's expected for the most part. it's highly visible in a number of forums (esp. watching someone's perspective change...when you've been acquainted with them as a fellow member, and then suddenly they're a 'mod'). your post was needed. it's always nice to get some human & humble 'emotion' from the other side (of the buttons).
i appreciate it anyway. i think for the most part the mod's here are decent. as you pointed out, it's a fairly simple job...but some folk are gonna use it to the best of their avantage...and...well...what are you gonna do?!?
nay,
here's to the multiverse. the one we all hold a place in.
and here's to respecting each beings purpose in total, and the time-frame in which they move through it. i wanted to bring up the word 'hate', bcuz it's a powerful word you use frequently. i don't believe there's anyone here that hates you. i'm probably one of the most alternative minds on this forum, in reflection to yours (someone that would 'appear' to be against you), and i certainly don't hate you or anything else on an individual level for that matter...so i think that puts you pretty much in the clear.
if i was a therapist i'd have to ask, "why do you think everyone hates you?", but i'm an intuitive practitioner...and i already see the 'why', but's not my place to call you forth. i can't help feeling the patronizing energy in your words though, and something i do honestly believe you could spend some energy working on. you're only two years older than me; so i feel okay saying...that your age (although it might colour your perspective), in no way gives you the right to treat people as stupid or less than. you know about the light side of things. it's what you preach. in fitting with that you must also know that 'to each their own'. i really feel you have some trust issues to work out. bcuz FAITH is what seems to be lacking in your energy. faith that everyone is going to be fine.
don't bother jumping all over the place with that, bcuz i'll tell you exactly what i mean. you push the love, the light, the positive...but yet (although you attempt to transfer this on to others [namely me])...you seem to have quite an affair with hate, anger, darkness, and negativity. i can sense the excitement in your words. the way you sink your teeth into them every time they come up. i believe it's your 'attraction' that you struggle with, not mine or anyone else's. i have complete faith that people can move in all direction without ever getting stuck for long. and it's through this movement (the current colossal invasion you speak of) that the next generation is merely 'exploring'. and it's through an amalgamation and understanding of both sides that there will come peace. not to have everyone turn their backs...esp. when they know something is there that is demanding their attention.
everyone works to a higher calling and there's nothing to do but accept, respect & have faith in that. i know how firmly you 'believe' in what you believe, but do really want to have that responsibility? do you really want to be the one to tell people what's right for them? seems like some impossible shoes to fill...but that's just my opinion (per usual).
and as a side note....seems you might benefit from not always keeping score. it's hard to get flexible when carrying all that old weight around.
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as for the thread,
it's typical that the subject of the 'observer' isn't of more interest, but it really is the major player in this discussion...and those with a scientific slant really have the worst case of it (observing).
relying on technology/science & the exterior develops huge egos, whilst
relying more on the interior...one is more open to humbleness.
nobody needs any "proof" anyway. that's the answer to the big question. that there are no answers. just distractions.
here's to never trying to divert others from their independence and inner workings in any sense.
here's to spending time getting to know yourself (your observer) and how morbidly dependent it can be when catered to 24-7.
and here's to getting out once in while for a little 'free' time.
love soul
Sarah,
Smokers is an excellent analogy. It shows exactly what I was saying. Thank you. :smile:
Soul,
You make a very good point about "scientific" observation.
I know true science is meant to be studied in a completely unbiased manner, but when we look at science as it is today, I don't see how this is possible. Scientific observation is just as coloured by bias and beliefs as any religious belief system. For starters it only works through five sensory observation, whereas any spiritual studies require six sensory observation. This goes to show that science as it is today is not adequately equipped to make theories or observations on such things as negative entities or energies.
The views I have on this subject are that we all have challenges and lessons in this lifetime. Before we incarnated here we chose this lifetime to address these challenges, which could be karmic in nature, or simply a need to evolve. We also chose the situations that would bring them to us. This is all for the purpose of our soul's evolution, and in many ways its no different to a university student sitting tests to achieve a degree.
It is also our choice to accept the challenge, to learn the lesson, and move forward, just as it is the choice of the uni student to study the required material to pass their tests. How long you undergo the challenges in your life could be equated to a uni student doing a double degree, or going on towards a PhD.
Your soul may have chosen a BIG lesson to learn.
Blessings,
James.
Quote from: sarahPerhaps some people are simply not as strong/strong-willed/gung-ho/mature about negs as you are Nay?
You're right, I had no right assuming that other people could perhaps be as strong/gung-ho or mature...don't know what I was thinking..stupid, stupid, stupid thought I had there. I will certainly cease thinking that way. Thank you for setting me straight.
Quote from: sarahWhat's this all about? And why in public?
Sarah, it has been public information since the very beginning.. I'm not letting out some big dark secret that Runlola and I are not Pen-pals. People will either read what we said or did read it at the time that it was happening. If I may be so bold as to say, you made it out to be the federal case.
Quote from: sarahHuh? Is that a prerequisite for being a mod? I would just like to say that I thought Adrian invited each of the moderating members to do the job because he believed we were relatively trustworthy/responsible to have a few more buttons so that we could delete/move posts, that kind of thing.
I should have worded that different. I have no misconceived notions that I'm better than anyone or being a mod has elevated my status. As for Adrian's reason...I have no idea, we should ask him.
Quote from: sarahI don't want members to get the impression that the mods have weekly meetings discussing the issues that are posted about in the Forums, to reach a "group" decision on a particular viewpoint.
I don't think I was giving that impression either... I haven't even been in the mods forum for weeks.
Quote from: sarahAnd I want to stress again, that the moderators are members first and foremost, with their own personal opinions about the subjects discussed. We are not cliquey – in fact if you put all the mods in a room together, we'd probably be arguing within 10 minutes, a fight would break out and Adrian would have to step in. Laughing
My point exactly when I said something to the effect, "then it got different" You see back in the days, us mods could be in the same room and not argue......and even if we did one didn't feel like it was a personal attack.
Quote from: sarahI just wanted to clarify that as it's important to me. I don't want to be seen as someone "high and mighty" just because I've got the word 'moderator' under my name. I guess it's one of my little gripes.
I absolutely don't want to either. I shall relinquish my mod status so I will never fall into that trap. fair enough?
I will comment to Souljah, after I'm not a mod. :lol:
Take it easy,
Nay
Quote from: James SSarah,
Soul,
You make a very good point about "scientific" observation.
I know true science is meant to be studied in a completely unbiased manner, but when we look at science as it is today, I don't see how this is possible. Scientific observation is just as coloured by bias and beliefs as any religious belief system. For starters it only works through five sensory observation, whereas any spiritual studies require six sensory observation. This goes to show that science as it is today is not adequately equipped to make theories or observations on such things as negative entities or energies.
It is things like this which make me have doubts. I mean although we can say such things about scientific observation, even if it is biased, unless the results are completely fabricated they can be repeated and verified anywhere (peer review). Whereas, this only goes as far as projecting onto the astral (going out of body - where everyone seems to have to find their own way), nothing else can be verified as it seems unique to each person. People who strongly buy into the same belief system might have similar experiences, but never the same.
Also, I think science works on more than six senses. We might use our physical 5 senses to interpret the data we receive, but in modern age we have things ranging from electron microscopes, x-ray machines, particle accelerators, background radiation satellites mapping the heavens, quark detectors, super computers modelling many extremely complex phenomenons etc. Literally hundreds/thousands of new 'senses', artificial yes, but they gather so much more information than we would ever see or know in the astral or reality otherwise.
I'm not arguing for the sake of it, I just seem to start buying into astral ideas more, and then I'll see scientific findings which give me reasons to doubt our current view of the astral and its philosophies.
I would love to be able to take things at face value as I see many people do, but I just feel uncomfortable ignoring a lot of evidence to the contrary of such beliefs.
QuoteFor starters it only works through five sensory observation, whereas any spiritual studies require six sensory observation. This goes to show that science as it is today is not adequately equipped to make theories or observations on such things as negative entities or energies.
i don't see science as adequately equipped to deal with much at all..save measuring, tagging, and wasting vast sums of money. i guess that's where my ego gets a little perturbed (and somewhere a lesson lays hidden). it's changing (slowly), and i suppose i could be happy with that, but i still see a lot of trampling taking place in the process (per usual). not to mention (as someone already has) the 'agendas' of those who hold the checkbooks (the conspiracy of which is a whole thread of it's own).
this 'observer' logic is vital, not just to the ease of everyday functioning, but to the evolution of our species in the long term (IMHO). i have to admit that in the past it's something i pushed with a fairly heavy-hand. it was just so perfectly life changing, but i've only come across one other person that embraced the simplicity...and that was the old man that gave me my first jiddu krishnamurti book "Awakening of Intelligence".
i can't stress any of this material enough (in his own words...not in the dogma that's delivered on the websites [but i guess that's a decent place to start]). for anyone that has those really hard questions, and tends to be more then a little stubborn in their beliefs...the books are worth their weight in gold. there's a ton of mystery within the human consciousness and it's does very well, to at least explore these things before attempting to make sense of the unconscious & unknown.
for anyone with c2c streamlink, there have been some amazing shows in the last week. namely...(02/14/06) w/ Steven Hairfield: Changing Times & (02/08/06) w/ Charles Upton: UFOs, End Times & the Antichrist
Author Charles Upton. Upton made some interesting comments about demons that are in-fitting with what's being discussed here.
i also believe it was Upton that commented on krishnamurti. who (i had no idea) was an extremely poor child that benjamin creme (assoc. w/ the buzz of the new maitreya: see "share international.) scooped up off the streets of india (along with his colleagues from the "theospohical society") to raise as the new messiah (their first attempt)...that went terribly wrong when jiddu eventually (in years) decline this position, and began his lectures on the "observer/ego". people from the west might never have heard of krishnamurti, but in the east & europe he was basically seen as a god since his childhood. despite the reverence he managed to come round full circle to a point where he wouldn't even accept being called a "teacher". this is just to say...that as far as ego is concerned & the "I"-center process...this guy's perspective is invaluable!
streamlink is well worth (i think it's...) $9/mth!?!
i listen to the shows during the day, and download the ones most interesting.
anyway...that's about it.
save for looking forward to nay's reply.
333
Quote from: Souljah333
i don't see science as adequately equipped to deal with much at all..save measuring, tagging, and wasting vast sums of money. i guess that's where my ego gets a little perturbed (and somewhere a lesson lays hidden). it's changing (slowly), and i suppose i could be happy with that, but i still see a lot of trampling taking place in the process (per usual). not to mention (as someone already has) the 'agendas' of those who hold the checkbooks (the conspiracy of which is a whole thread of it's own).
Just a quick question really, and this has been something troubling me more than a lot of other stuff of late. If science isn't adequately equipped to deal with much (which I can fully believe in its current state), why is a belief system bourn on nothing but personal belief equipped to do such a thing?
I agree personal experience is paramount, but it isn't necessarily true in any form.
We could look back a thousand years or so when we lived on a flat earth, covered by a crystal dome with stars embedded in it, and Gods heaven and the sun revolved around us. Eyes saw through projecting light and bacteria were taken as evil spirits. This is one example, mainly Christian I know, but we could find such world views from any culture.
People took this as true personal knowledge and based their view of reality on it, yet with our current world understanding it is obviously quite wrong. What makes today's philosophies any truer, and how can we find out if they are if we consider all repeatable empirical evidence as pointless?
Are we just supposed to believe whatever we want as that is all that matters?
Okey I is back. Quick comments:
Souljah: You have spoken of krishnamurti in a very positive light a few times now. Gotta say my opinion on his work differs somewhat - I bought one of his books ("The Book of Life") out of curiosity, but couldnt read it because I disagreed with so much.
(picks up book and opens at random - first thing I just read is "conflict of any kind - physical, psychological, intellectual - is a waste of energy". Good example. My own exporation of my own mind, psychology and, to no small extent, spirituality was kick started by my intense insecurities when I was younger (ie internal conflict), which it taught me sooo much. Then there are the technological advances, human closeness, and determination after the fact to make a better world and to not allow it to happen again that came from the World Wars. So my opinion is that you can often learn often at least as much from conflict as from its opposite :wink: )
I am reminded of something I read once that said that as you progress up the spiritual levels, the Truth of things changes, so that at each level it looks completely different to the last. Maybe its just each to their own level and zone on that level. If so, then krishnamurti is much closed to yours and a long way from mine!!
Next thing to you:
Quotejust a little wider...just one more time.
You say you are an intuitive practitioner. Do you intuitively think that comments like this are going to help lead to a productive and positive outcome?
(btw I admit many of Nays comments to you have been far from perfect, but please try to refrain from using this as an excuse. And yes, I am far from perfect as well, and more than happy to admit it. I also usually try to clear up any mess this imperfection may cause).
Infact, I would like to ask the
two of you to stop these vicious comments you are aiming at eachother. Nay, yes, getting things "off your chest" may help, but in the long run, those "things" will cause more "things" to be piled on souljahs chest, which she will then unload into these forums, and you both perpetuate a very nasty argument with eachother. So! I might suggest that in the short term holding back the angry and superior comments (which you *BOTH* are making) might, at least in Nays case, make you want to explode (which you can do, but try to aim the flak at a pillow or something similar!), but being polite and courteous will take the discussion in an upwards direction and, in the long term, stop you from getting so angry or whatever to begin with.
I mean, there are obviously things you can agree upon, is there no way you can focus on this and allow these agreements to lead to an agreeable tone, instead of getting emotional over what you disagree about and letting this dominate your posts? I'm not saying dont disagree, because I think its valuable to do so, just asking you to not take it so personally when you do so.
Take MJ for instance. He could have responded to my sharp pokey and, lets face it, somewhat odd, post to him, with something similar, angry or insulting, and it may be argued that he would have had a right to have done so. But he didn't, and we are now having a good positive discussion which, I think, we are both learning from - right MJ?
Anyhow...
MJ (lol, I called u MH before, oops):
I have enormous issues with the rejection of science by much of the spiritual community too.
QuoteJust a quick question really, and this has been something troubling me more than a lot of other stuff of late. If science isn't adequately equipped to deal with much (which I can fully believe in its current state), why is a belief system bourn on nothing but personal belief equipped to do such a thing?
I am not sure it is entirely fair to reduce everything to personal belief, without understanding the reasons for holding those beliefs. For instance, your experiences of astral projection, you believe you can astral project, and to the average scientist this is all it would be, a deluded belief. But this is something you know science has difficulty even verifying the existence of at all (so far, although there have been some good experiments - you probably know them better than me since they involved monroe). So the issue becomes how spiritual belief is rooted in experience (1st, 2nd or 3rd hand, as you well pointed out), which is often of an intensely personal kind and/or non-repeatable, whereas scientific verification requires repeatable and measurable results. I also share your opinion that science will eventually explore other realms such as astral, and verify the existence of entities/spirits and etc, just that new instrumentation and approaches will have to be evolved first.
Its nice to see that this has already started, although that it has is a fact mostly unknown to people involved in spiritual pursuits. There have been some very good advances. From China, where they take investigating these things much more seriously, I have a lot of very good experiments saved on my computer done with a Qui-Gong master, in a Chinese university, showing the effect of his projecting Chi with intent onto various measuring apparatus. Very positive results on that theme.
Moving from this to a point you raised to me before:
QuoteThe problem with parapsychological research to date is that it is very hard to produce under laboratory settings, and even hard to produce reliably. I agree there is masses of data there which suggest some amazing things are going on, but until it can be put into some form of objective framework it will remain on the fringes of science.
Do you mean by framework, an experimental framework (ie how to conduct experiments), or an intellectual framework of understanding (ie whats going on)?
As my above bit indicates, there are some good experimental frameworks evolving already. Added to this, are you familiar with the work of Rupert Sheldrake, or William Tiller and his IIED's I think he calls them? Some very good stuff there.
But as for an intellectual framework to put it in....tricky!! People relate it to quantum effects and etc, but you probably know this and the issues it runs into.
QuoteThis in itself makes me questions such things i.e. similar experiences but very different view points, what part does belief play in this?
Yes, you are making me wonder too :grin:
QuoteI used to be very much led by belief, and I went through a pretty traumatic time when I looked at my beliefs under a critical light and dropped a lot of them. I didn't discount these beliefs totally, but I moved them from where I had stored them as 'knowns' to just possibilities.
Wow, gotta respect you for that!! Nice one.
QuoteFriends generally have similar view points, and if you discuss such matters, that could be a link to why your experiences are similar.
During these times with fear, did you have any other paralysis or projection episodes at all? And if so did they have neg elements or not?
Hmmm, first point, not really. I only really started discussing this with friends who had experiences of this kind, after I had been through everything I have been discussing with you here, and by that point they had also had "untainted" experiences from before we had even met, and continuing beyond this time. For instance, two friends, one had "night terrors" when much younger involving him becoming totally obsessively demented, and seeing snakes and spiders falling from the ceiling, writhing over the floor, etc (btw this obsessive quality of what I think are neg attacks like this leads me into the OCD type complex I think we can grow up with). Another friend has often woken up to see spiders crawling around his room. And you have had the spiders thing too. Which reminds me, I once had an experience where in a dream there was a nasty red and white snake in my lap, hissing at me. I was terrified and could barely move, then it bit me in the thigh, and I woke up with a stabbing pain where I had been "dream bitten" (to me, indicating more than a creation of the mind). So why snakes and spiders so much? My friend isnt scared of spiders, he is more the type who would carelessly pick them up, and there is a definite link to people seeing both these things at all ages, which kinda indicates my other friend when he was young was not just hallucinating spiders and snakes because he was afraid of them too. I am not afraid of snakes, either. I mean, there could be some "archetypal fears", but again, why only manifest visions of what the collective mind is afraid of? Why not the other archetypal stuff, negative or positive? And why such an overwhelming emphasis on snakes and spiders? To me, it indicates some level of objective reality, but if you have any other suggestions we have not covered yet I would love to hear them.
Second question you asked: When I was going to bed at night more afraid, I did not have any other paralysis, projection experiences, or shadow sightings.
QuoteWhen I started to consciously attempt to project (I would go to bed early and spend a few hours each night trying) my brother who slept on a bunk bed above me started to have paralysis and energy episodes and also some pretty scary projection experiences (things pulling his legs and he'd have to hold onto the ground to stop being pulled into the sky).
My brother has no interest with anything one could term spiritual or religious; he's the archetypal sports buff who likes a drink. Before my projection attempts he never experienced anything like this to his memory, and since I moved out of home, he hasn't experienced anything since.
One occasion he was in Cyprus, and he was continuing to have paralysis episodes which seemed to link up to times when I was either projecting or attempting to project.
That is really really
REAALLY interesting!!!
I wonder, would you be prepared to try covering your body in scared symbols like I did, to see if it does anything? Let me know if you are interested and I will dig out the precise details.
QuotePerhaps your Dads nightmare precipitated your neg experience, or your seeming neg experience caused your dads nightmare. I really don't know.
Ooooh now I really had not considered the first option. Yup, loosens my beliefs a bit :grin: .
I think it was the Celts who did not believe in the concepts of "right or wrong" like we do today, but instead saw everything on a line between "probably correct/yes" and "probably incorrect/no". I suppose this is true in life and even more so with respect to spiritual experiences. I mean, even if we have experienced something we may be able to say "I remember experiencing that" but drawing definite, absolute, conclusions from there is probably a bad idea, even if IMO it still is one of the most solid starting points.
I will endeavour to take this point of view more in the future.
QuoteI worry about saying too much or the wrong thing when I get carried away in a post. I'm not really out to disprove anything; I've had strange experiences too and am looking for answers. I think discussion from all view points is valuable and helpful :).
You and me both......and on the final comment there <looks at shoes> you are entirely right.
And I take back what I said about nothing constructive coming from this, thanks for proving me wrong
:hippy3:
MJ asked:
Quotewhy is a belief system bourn on nothing but personal belief equipped to do such a thing?
'such a thing' i'm assuming is coming up with answers & proof?!? not sure exactly if i'm understanding the question, but supply and demand to begin with...and a lot of people investing a hell of a lot of time in what they are very serious about. a lot of fortune 500 companies & the government willing to foot the bill on all manner of things (i won't bother listing).
it's work, it's prestigious, it's a high-status social club, and it keeps us sheeple distracted from any independence of it (for the most part)(i feel).
you said...
QuoteWe could look back a thousand years or so when we lived on a flat earth, covered by a crystal dome with stars embedded in it, and Gods heaven and the sun revolved around us. Eyes saw through projecting light and bacteria were taken as evil spirits... People took this as true personal knowledge and based their view of reality on it, yet with our current world understanding it is obviously quite wrong.
first, i don't really see how the perspective (in general) has changed much, and second: the details aren't of interest to me...i was looking at the system of beliefs themselves. they had theirs, we have ours, and therefore nothing has changed. i personally wouldn't go as far to say 'they were wrong & we're right (or at least on the 'right track').
we don't know that. we don't know that at all.
what makes today's philosophies any truer? I don't think they are.
(which makes the second part of your question (only to me)...
yes, pointless.
are we just supposed to believe whatever we want as that is all that matters? i suppose that could be seen as the case, bcuz your average person needs to 'believe' in something, but that's not where i'm coming from (personally). i pick up beliefs just the same as anyone, but only to examine them, feel them through, and then set them aside. nothing 'wrong' with ideas, theories, or egos (for that matter)...i just prefer not to get stuck in them. i'm always the first person to stand up and say i don't have any idea what's going on, and i'm also the first person to walk away from someone who tries to tell me how it is. that's just me.
inguma wrote in reference to krishnamurti...
Quotebut couldnt read it because I disagreed with so much.
(picks up book and opens at random - first thing I just read is "conflict of any kind - physical, psychological, intellectual - is a waste of energy".
first off...there is very peculiar cadence to jiddu's words that seem to make it extremely difficult for most people to get far in to. second, you said you COULDN'T/DIDN'T read it, which would stand to reason why you're having a problem with the 'setting aside of conflict'. JK was not a complicated man...the profoundness of his wisdom was he said exactly what he meant and nothing more. haven't read "book of life", but if it's like his other work (dictation style from lectures within groups)...you will see he is constantly requesting that individuals not go off on a tangent with his words, but simply "examine" what's being said in the present.
and in your chosen text he said,
"conflict of any kind...is a waste of energy". and how can anyone argue with that?!?
one of his main goals was to get people to see that they attempted everything under the sun, except being present. constantly drawing on past experience and projecting it into future scenarios...without ever taking 'account' of the here & now. (that kind of stuff just pisses people off, if not messes with their mind too much. me? i love it & can't get enough).
i really do urge you...if you still have the book to at least read one chapter. i do agree though if you haven't totally digested it that it's not something typically well suited for bibliomancy.
as for the rest of your argument...JK (as well as myself) was in complete agreement that anything can be learned from anything. his teachings (for lack of a better word) for the most part was about 'not getting stuck in anything in PARTICULAR.
as for the rest...i won't comment on the moral or political correctness of your posts, and would appreciate the same respect in return. of course it's not an ultimatum of any kind.
QuoteDo you intuitively think that comments like this are going to help lead to a productive and positive outcome?
yes...i am a IP, but i never made any claims to being a saint. the energy behind what i said in "opening up"...was honest. i can't be anymore genuine than that. my purpose isn't 'productive & positive', and that doesn't mean that it's 'unproductive & negative' either. some people might like to go around patting one another on the back, and candy-coating blather, but i don't much see the point in it.
i can use the following excerpt from selski to nay as an example...
Quote
Perhaps some people are simply not as strong/strong-willed/gung-ho/mature about negs as you are Nay?
ahh...isn't that all nice and sweet on the surface, but comments like that is what i see leading to more conflict. it's like fertilizing dandelions. of course the reply was even sweeter, as nay commented that it had totally changed her thinking. just my skills at work here, but i'll have to see that in actual application.
i posses no ill will for what's transpired between nay & i in the past (or anyone else for that matter) i'm not keeping record, and i don't want to play "that" game...but i appreciate the in-put none the less.
nay is free to say whatever she wants to me, and if she believes it's too much for the passive ears of this forum...she's got my e-mail.
as matter of fact...you all do! :wink:
soul
...
Quotei also believe it was Upton that commented on krishnamurti. who (i had no idea) was an extremely poor child that benjamin creme (assoc. w/ the buzz of the new maitreya: see "share international.) scooped up off the streets of india (along with his colleagues from the "theospohical society") to raise as the new messiah (their first attempt)...that went terribly wrong when jiddu eventually (in years) decline this position, and began his lectures on the "observer/ego". people from the west might never have heard of krishnamurti, but in the east & europe he was basically seen as a god since his childhood. despite the reverence he managed to come round full circle to a point where he wouldn't even accept being called a "teacher". this is just to say...that as far as ego is concerned & the "I"-center process...this guy's perspective is invaluable!
Interesting info. I had some contact with 'share' international, who wanted my church to host an event. We, being a metaphysical church, thinking they were some sort of buddhist movement, (maytreya and all) were going to have them until I went into their website- it was really to promote their latest 'messiah'. We didn't go for it, but the whole affair left me with a low opinion of them.
Hi MisterJingo,
I can see where you're coming from here, and understand your viewpoint. I've been a great proponent for scientific methodology for a long time, and when analytical observation is used in its most unbiased form, it can produce unquestionable results, and be a very good and firm basis for future exploration.
Or the could be questionable results if you've just invested a great deal of money in something that is based on the skewed research obtained from biased observations.
Soul made an excellent point about who's writing the cheques for research. A study done in Europe a number of years ago into the possible harmful effects of mobile phone emissions concluded that mobile phones emit no harmful radiation. Who funded the research? Nokia!
Scientific research does indeed rely on repeatable results to form conclusions. Unfortunately, where it comes to things metaphysical, the physical tools required to get the measurements needed are still too limited in their capacity.
Consider that current scientific measurement still relies on five sensory perception. All the devices you mentioned are still only mapping the physical universe, their output attuned to our five physical senses.
When looking for validity and possible measurement of the spiritual universe, we need to rely on our sixth sense, which science, being dependent on physical methodology, is as yet unable to provide measurement equipment for.
Validation and repeatable results within the metaphysical world do happen, and quite frequently.
For example, I have two spirit guides frequently around me here in this world. There have been many occasions when I've met and been been talking to a medium for the first time and they describe one of my two guides as being around me. They describe my guides perfectly.
When enough individuals, with no knowledge of each other or of any of the circumstances involved, with no prior information to preempt the experience, observe the same thing in exactly the same way, this to me is a verifiable, repeatable result.
Having said all that, I do recognise that there are some absolute scam artists within the spiritual community who promote their ways or products to the gullible using dodgy pseudo-science. I know all industries have such people within them, but in the spiritual "industry", for exactly the reasons you've mentioned, things are much harder to prove or disprove.
Here is where you need your sixth sense working well - intuition will always separate the genuine from the con.
Blessings,
James.
Does anybody else get this? Sometimes I can feel parts of my body which aren't there! Like, I've felt like I've got pierced ears but I don't. The weirdest one was when i felt I had my eyebrow pierced and I had a compulsive need to touch it. Do you think that this is an overlay issue come as a horrible reality or am i just sensitive to people and remember aspects of them for a long time? Whatever it is, it's like a shadow in myself. :evil:
Quote from: IngumaOkey I is back. Quick comments:
Hi Inguma,
Thank you for the detailed reply :). I haven't had a chance to sit down and type a thoughtful response yet - but just a quick message to say I haven't forgotten about this thread :smile:
I would be interested if you could give me information on the sacred symbols you drew on yourself, as I'd be happy to try this and see what happens.