Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Kojie on August 12, 2003, 03:14:24
Post by: Kojie on August 12, 2003, 03:14:24
I dont believe in demons or the devil.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 12, 2003, 05:38:47
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 12, 2003, 05:38:47
Well, One's Belief in something, or Disbelief, has no bearing on whether or not it exists or not...However, the sad part is, is that the Believing in it, and putting one's Attention towards it sends it Energy...If enough people were to become SO Afraid of the Devil, the amount of time applied to the "Devil" (over so many generations) could, in fact, create a Devil of some sort on the Astral...
But, I think God exists, as does Satan...In some form or another, but also in Forms that we, or at least MOST, wouldn't and couldn't Comprehend...
I've had my share of Demon Fights...And I've had my Share of Revelations...In all my Training, I feel that Energy Work has Confirmed God's Existence, as well as Satan's, even More-so than before...
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
But, I think God exists, as does Satan...In some form or another, but also in Forms that we, or at least MOST, wouldn't and couldn't Comprehend...
I've had my share of Demon Fights...And I've had my Share of Revelations...In all my Training, I feel that Energy Work has Confirmed God's Existence, as well as Satan's, even More-so than before...
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: beavis on August 12, 2003, 10:15:26
Post by: beavis on August 12, 2003, 10:15:26
"Well, One's Belief in something, or Disbelief, has no bearing on whether or not it exists or not..."
"However, the sad part is, is that the Believing in it, and putting one's Attention towards it sends it Energy...If enough people were to become SO Afraid of the Devil, the amount of time applied to the "Devil" (over so many generations) could, in fact, create a Devil of some sort on the Astral..."
You contradict yourself.
"However, the sad part is, is that the Believing in it, and putting one's Attention towards it sends it Energy...If enough people were to become SO Afraid of the Devil, the amount of time applied to the "Devil" (over so many generations) could, in fact, create a Devil of some sort on the Astral..."
You contradict yourself.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: TruthSeeker on August 12, 2003, 10:52:06
Post by: TruthSeeker on August 12, 2003, 10:52:06
"The greatest thing the devil ever did was to convince humankind that he did not exist"
Regards,
TruthSeeker
Regards,
TruthSeeker
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: beavis on August 12, 2003, 14:58:15
Post by: beavis on August 12, 2003, 14:58:15
The greatest thing Santa Clause ever did was to convince parents that he did not exist.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 12, 2003, 15:12:35
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 12, 2003, 15:12:35
Truthseeker, can you see how that passage was created by the church to keep people fearing the devil? Or see at least how it could have been created for just that? From an atheist p.o.v., using that statement seems extremely ignorant.
There isn't really a way to disprove heaven or hell, but from what people have experienced in the astral, one can easily see how such ideas could come about. There are spirits that seems friendly, and those that are harmful (negs). There are pleasant places in the astral that could be called heaven and could differ from person to person, and there are those places you'd rather not be. Even when one dies, if you fear going to the stereotype of 'hell', then that person experiences regions of the astral that fit that feeling of fear too well, and as the person becomes more and more frightened, they experience worse and worse conditions, in what Frank has called an endless spiraling action. The only way out of such a situation is to stop reacting to the things around you and become indifferent, which can become difficult to say the least when your conditions are ever-worsening.
When all of these things are brought into the debate as to whether Hell and Satan exist, it's very easy to find the origins of such tales. Sightings of Satan and of Hell in the astral are possible by simply fearing the sight of them, nervously anticipating them, etc., but those are as common as sightings of anything else and are created by the mind. I'm sure people have seen a red guy with horns in the astral, like a stereotyped Satan, as well as firey pits. This is to be expected, right? But the origins of the red character known as Satan go back to old mythologies, and nowhere in the Bible does it say Satan resembles man. In fact, the church doesn't preach that he resembles man, but is a fallen angel, and looks just like the other angels of heaven. So why would people see a red guy with horns? Because both kinds of Satan, the red guy and a fallen spirit that feels 'wrong', could be experienced with negative thoughts. The same can apply to hell: the stereotype of Hell, with firey pits roasting sinners for all eternity, goes back to Dante's Divine Comedy.
The Divine Comedy is an Italian epic poem that is similar to Homer's The Odyssey. In it, Hell is depicted as a firey underworld, and that idea came from the underworld from Greek mythology, which came from the underworld from Sumerian and Babylonian 'mythology'.
You won't often hear the church describing Hell in detail. Maybe your local preacher might, etc., but the church itself doesn't officially say much because of all the possible contradictions, since there are many stereotypes of Satan and Hell that are technically inaccurate in the face of the Bible itself, but the church looks the other way on this as long as people fear Hell and subscribe to their religion.
There are lots of contradictions in the concept of Hell already, such as the fact that an all-powerful and infinitely-forgiving God would let his creations suffer for all eternity even though they may beg for forgiveness. This, however, can be traced back to an inaccuracy in the translation from Greek, where hell was described not as eternal, but for a period of 100 years or an undefined amount of time, depending on how you want to interpret the ancient language. But still, even in the light of this completely obvious translational error, preachers still preach that Hell is eternal on programs such as the 700 Club, while the church doesn't say a single word about translational errors or the like. It took the church nearly 200 years just to admit that they were wrong about the Earth being the center of the universe, and to apologize for all the great thinkers they killed for stating that Earth orbitted the sun!! We had taken pictures of the other planets and had diagrams of our solar system in textbooks before the church even decided to admit its mistake, which shows how forthcoming they are with the truth, doesn't it?
So.. I don't believe Satan or Hell necessarily have to exist, but any number of duplicates of those two things can exist if people believe they do. The church doesn't seem to be extremely anxious to tell us exactly what Hell and Satan are and aren't, and the number of variations on Christian beliefs are as widespread as the preachers that preach them. The astral seems to account for everything for me, and there's really nothing that points the other way.
There isn't really a way to disprove heaven or hell, but from what people have experienced in the astral, one can easily see how such ideas could come about. There are spirits that seems friendly, and those that are harmful (negs). There are pleasant places in the astral that could be called heaven and could differ from person to person, and there are those places you'd rather not be. Even when one dies, if you fear going to the stereotype of 'hell', then that person experiences regions of the astral that fit that feeling of fear too well, and as the person becomes more and more frightened, they experience worse and worse conditions, in what Frank has called an endless spiraling action. The only way out of such a situation is to stop reacting to the things around you and become indifferent, which can become difficult to say the least when your conditions are ever-worsening.
When all of these things are brought into the debate as to whether Hell and Satan exist, it's very easy to find the origins of such tales. Sightings of Satan and of Hell in the astral are possible by simply fearing the sight of them, nervously anticipating them, etc., but those are as common as sightings of anything else and are created by the mind. I'm sure people have seen a red guy with horns in the astral, like a stereotyped Satan, as well as firey pits. This is to be expected, right? But the origins of the red character known as Satan go back to old mythologies, and nowhere in the Bible does it say Satan resembles man. In fact, the church doesn't preach that he resembles man, but is a fallen angel, and looks just like the other angels of heaven. So why would people see a red guy with horns? Because both kinds of Satan, the red guy and a fallen spirit that feels 'wrong', could be experienced with negative thoughts. The same can apply to hell: the stereotype of Hell, with firey pits roasting sinners for all eternity, goes back to Dante's Divine Comedy.
The Divine Comedy is an Italian epic poem that is similar to Homer's The Odyssey. In it, Hell is depicted as a firey underworld, and that idea came from the underworld from Greek mythology, which came from the underworld from Sumerian and Babylonian 'mythology'.
You won't often hear the church describing Hell in detail. Maybe your local preacher might, etc., but the church itself doesn't officially say much because of all the possible contradictions, since there are many stereotypes of Satan and Hell that are technically inaccurate in the face of the Bible itself, but the church looks the other way on this as long as people fear Hell and subscribe to their religion.
There are lots of contradictions in the concept of Hell already, such as the fact that an all-powerful and infinitely-forgiving God would let his creations suffer for all eternity even though they may beg for forgiveness. This, however, can be traced back to an inaccuracy in the translation from Greek, where hell was described not as eternal, but for a period of 100 years or an undefined amount of time, depending on how you want to interpret the ancient language. But still, even in the light of this completely obvious translational error, preachers still preach that Hell is eternal on programs such as the 700 Club, while the church doesn't say a single word about translational errors or the like. It took the church nearly 200 years just to admit that they were wrong about the Earth being the center of the universe, and to apologize for all the great thinkers they killed for stating that Earth orbitted the sun!! We had taken pictures of the other planets and had diagrams of our solar system in textbooks before the church even decided to admit its mistake, which shows how forthcoming they are with the truth, doesn't it?
So.. I don't believe Satan or Hell necessarily have to exist, but any number of duplicates of those two things can exist if people believe they do. The church doesn't seem to be extremely anxious to tell us exactly what Hell and Satan are and aren't, and the number of variations on Christian beliefs are as widespread as the preachers that preach them. The astral seems to account for everything for me, and there's really nothing that points the other way.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: jilola on August 12, 2003, 15:17:44
Post by: jilola on August 12, 2003, 15:17:44
There are souls that have progressed beyond the understanding of most if not all of us. Meeting one of them would be as meeting God.
There are souls that have sunken so deep into their own illusions as to be beyond the understanding of most if not all of us. Meeting one of them would be as meeting the Devil.
They are still souls like us, they were as were are now and we have the choice of becoming either of them.
2cents & L&L
jouni
There are souls that have sunken so deep into their own illusions as to be beyond the understanding of most if not all of us. Meeting one of them would be as meeting the Devil.
They are still souls like us, they were as were are now and we have the choice of becoming either of them.
2cents & L&L
jouni
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: TruthSeeker on August 12, 2003, 15:53:58
Post by: TruthSeeker on August 12, 2003, 15:53:58
Dear no_leaf_clover,
This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Thank you for your thoughts, as it is very important to reveal tre truth relating to this matter.
By this statement: "The greatest thing the devil ever did was to convince humankind that he did not exist", I wanted thoughts to start rolling in. I wanted people to make an effort trying to "prove me wrong". Exellent!
I am sure you noticed the quotationmarks, meaning I was not the one who said it, and this sentence should not be connected to me. I stated this quote to provoke you and to counteranswer by giving a more "truthful" truth.
I, myself do not believe in "the devil"(by traditional terms), nor do I believe in hell. There are higher planes of existence, and there are lower planes existence. If we follow strict christianity we might call the higher planes "heaven", and the lower planes "hell".
Do not follow a religion blindly because you are told to. You have free will, use it and cunclude yourself what is real and what is not. Traditional christianity is perhaps responsible for planting the "rumor" of "Satan"(That is if it really is just a rumor) And sure other religins have done other things they can not be proud of. Find your own path, seek the truth.
God(The creator, Universal consciousness etc.) created all we have around us, and has the power to destroy it all within a fraction of a fractioned second. Why doesn't "he" destroy everything that is "evil", if "he" has the power? He created it for us to learn and develop in the best way possible: By first-hand experiencing "EVERYTHING".
There might however be a devil, a dark lord. A consciousness(single individual or group-consciousness) that controlls "his" servants. But just as everything else he must have been created by God aswell(not a must, but most likely), hence he was created to help us learn and develop.
When it comes to "his" plan(that is IF he exists at all), I do not know. I have not the interest to know what the devil plans. If I understand what God's plan is, I will also understand the devil's big plan(if "he" really has one that is).
Spread love around you, love everything unconditionally. Love the angels, love the demons, love God, love "the dark lord". They are all here for us to learn and develop. We are Gods sons and daughters, and we should not express dislike or hatred towards his exellent "school" or any of its teachers or students.
Sincerely,
TruthSeeker
This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Thank you for your thoughts, as it is very important to reveal tre truth relating to this matter.
By this statement: "The greatest thing the devil ever did was to convince humankind that he did not exist", I wanted thoughts to start rolling in. I wanted people to make an effort trying to "prove me wrong". Exellent!
I am sure you noticed the quotationmarks, meaning I was not the one who said it, and this sentence should not be connected to me. I stated this quote to provoke you and to counteranswer by giving a more "truthful" truth.
I, myself do not believe in "the devil"(by traditional terms), nor do I believe in hell. There are higher planes of existence, and there are lower planes existence. If we follow strict christianity we might call the higher planes "heaven", and the lower planes "hell".
Do not follow a religion blindly because you are told to. You have free will, use it and cunclude yourself what is real and what is not. Traditional christianity is perhaps responsible for planting the "rumor" of "Satan"(That is if it really is just a rumor) And sure other religins have done other things they can not be proud of. Find your own path, seek the truth.
God(The creator, Universal consciousness etc.) created all we have around us, and has the power to destroy it all within a fraction of a fractioned second. Why doesn't "he" destroy everything that is "evil", if "he" has the power? He created it for us to learn and develop in the best way possible: By first-hand experiencing "EVERYTHING".
There might however be a devil, a dark lord. A consciousness(single individual or group-consciousness) that controlls "his" servants. But just as everything else he must have been created by God aswell(not a must, but most likely), hence he was created to help us learn and develop.
When it comes to "his" plan(that is IF he exists at all), I do not know. I have not the interest to know what the devil plans. If I understand what God's plan is, I will also understand the devil's big plan(if "he" really has one that is).
Spread love around you, love everything unconditionally. Love the angels, love the demons, love God, love "the dark lord". They are all here for us to learn and develop. We are Gods sons and daughters, and we should not express dislike or hatred towards his exellent "school" or any of its teachers or students.
Sincerely,
TruthSeeker
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 12, 2003, 18:12:53
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 12, 2003, 18:12:53
lol. I guess you know what you're doing when it comes to getting what you want out of people, eh Truthseeker? [:)]
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 13, 2003, 02:36:51
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 13, 2003, 02:36:51
To Beavis:
No, I did not contradict myself, I only gave a possible situation of what CAN occur, not saying it has...And, in it's Trueist sense, it would not be the Original Devil, per se, but rather one created from those who created the image of one "on the Astral"...Also, I'm talking about GENERATIONS of Attributed Energy, not from a single person's belief...
My first point was to point out that just because You or anybody believes in something or not does not mean it is necessarily True or not...That was a statement based on Individual Opinion and Belief, not something cultured over time (which was an alternative view of something that COULD happen)...Someone may not believe in the Devil, but that doesn't disprove if the Devil actually does exist or not...It is a Personal Belief or Disbelief...
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
No, I did not contradict myself, I only gave a possible situation of what CAN occur, not saying it has...And, in it's Trueist sense, it would not be the Original Devil, per se, but rather one created from those who created the image of one "on the Astral"...Also, I'm talking about GENERATIONS of Attributed Energy, not from a single person's belief...
My first point was to point out that just because You or anybody believes in something or not does not mean it is necessarily True or not...That was a statement based on Individual Opinion and Belief, not something cultured over time (which was an alternative view of something that COULD happen)...Someone may not believe in the Devil, but that doesn't disprove if the Devil actually does exist or not...It is a Personal Belief or Disbelief...
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: beavis on August 13, 2003, 09:49:41
Post by: beavis on August 13, 2003, 09:49:41
Syko Dragon, You said believing something has no effect on if it exists. Then you said if enough people believe something, that thing receives energy from the believers and that can cause it to exist. Many millions of people (including the last 2000 years) believe the devil exists, so by your thinking he must have been caused to exist, which directly contradicts the first sentence in this post.
I didnt say the devil has been proven to exist or not exist.
I didnt say the devil has been proven to exist or not exist.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 14, 2003, 03:51:11
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 14, 2003, 03:51:11
To Beavis:
Yes, I did say that, but that is why I responded, clarifying that a "single" belief or disbelief wouldn't really have an effect on whether or not it exists...I'll restate it, then, if it so suits You, in that it will have a Next to Nothing Effect unless a person spends Countless Hours putting their Attention towards it's existence...Unfortunately, a disbelief wouldn't have as much of an effect since a denial of something's existence sends Energy "around" an idea/thing/etc as opposed to "against" it...
I said I meant it in a sense of Generations of Energy and Attention as opposed to a Single Person's Energy and Attention...
Also, I did say that it wouldn't be the "Original Devil," but a type of "Made-Up" Devil that was supposedly created from the Beginning (which it THEN would NOT have been)...In that sense, it wouldn't TRULY be the Satan that was a Fallen Angel before Time was Time, but one that Simulates the Devil "on the Astral"...
For example, if there wasn't a shield up around a new tennant's house before, but a previous owner had "said" there was one set up since 10 years before the new person occupied it, it is possible for the new person to create a shield around the house with their Belief (over time, that is, and Constant Attention to it)...The idea of the new tennant would be that it was set up 10 years ago, when in fact, it was made by the new tennant...It is a false idea that isn't TRULY what happened, even though it APPEARED to be so...
But, on the reverse side to it, it is also possible for a Shield to be up without the new tennant knowing it at all...The only difference is that the new tennant wouldn't be adding to the Shield...
In that case, it would be More Accurate to say that it is Possible that Humans had Contributed to the Existance of "A" Devil, which is not necessarily "THE" Devil of the Bible (or any from before)...despite if one was created "on the side" from other's belief's or not...
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
Yes, I did say that, but that is why I responded, clarifying that a "single" belief or disbelief wouldn't really have an effect on whether or not it exists...I'll restate it, then, if it so suits You, in that it will have a Next to Nothing Effect unless a person spends Countless Hours putting their Attention towards it's existence...Unfortunately, a disbelief wouldn't have as much of an effect since a denial of something's existence sends Energy "around" an idea/thing/etc as opposed to "against" it...
I said I meant it in a sense of Generations of Energy and Attention as opposed to a Single Person's Energy and Attention...
Also, I did say that it wouldn't be the "Original Devil," but a type of "Made-Up" Devil that was supposedly created from the Beginning (which it THEN would NOT have been)...In that sense, it wouldn't TRULY be the Satan that was a Fallen Angel before Time was Time, but one that Simulates the Devil "on the Astral"...
For example, if there wasn't a shield up around a new tennant's house before, but a previous owner had "said" there was one set up since 10 years before the new person occupied it, it is possible for the new person to create a shield around the house with their Belief (over time, that is, and Constant Attention to it)...The idea of the new tennant would be that it was set up 10 years ago, when in fact, it was made by the new tennant...It is a false idea that isn't TRULY what happened, even though it APPEARED to be so...
But, on the reverse side to it, it is also possible for a Shield to be up without the new tennant knowing it at all...The only difference is that the new tennant wouldn't be adding to the Shield...
In that case, it would be More Accurate to say that it is Possible that Humans had Contributed to the Existance of "A" Devil, which is not necessarily "THE" Devil of the Bible (or any from before)...despite if one was created "on the side" from other's belief's or not...
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: fredhedd on August 14, 2003, 10:26:57
Post by: fredhedd on August 14, 2003, 10:26:57
i say...
everything exists. there isn't anything you can imagine that doesn't. i believe that to say what god is or isn't is missing the point. i'm going to do it anyway though. :) god is existence, thought, creation. god is our mind, not some entity or being that god is usually imagined being. god is not the opposite of the devil. god is the devil, just as we are all part of god. you can't seperate god from anything. thinking that everything is god's creation except for the devil is ridiculous.
everything exists. there isn't anything you can imagine that doesn't. i believe that to say what god is or isn't is missing the point. i'm going to do it anyway though. :) god is existence, thought, creation. god is our mind, not some entity or being that god is usually imagined being. god is not the opposite of the devil. god is the devil, just as we are all part of god. you can't seperate god from anything. thinking that everything is god's creation except for the devil is ridiculous.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: beavis on August 14, 2003, 15:49:57
Post by: beavis on August 14, 2003, 15:49:57
Syko Dragon, exists or not is gradual. Something can exist only in one entity's mind or in billions. When many think about the same thing, that thing becomes "reality". When one entity thinks about something, that thing still exists but is much lighter in energy density.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 15, 2003, 07:05:11
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 15, 2003, 07:05:11
To Beavis:
Which was exactly my point...[xx(] The only other part I was trying to point out was that the "time" it was created doesn't necessarily mean it is THE Devil from BEFORE we COULD think of such things and gradually create them or not...See what I mean?
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
Which was exactly my point...[xx(] The only other part I was trying to point out was that the "time" it was created doesn't necessarily mean it is THE Devil from BEFORE we COULD think of such things and gradually create them or not...See what I mean?
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: beavis on August 15, 2003, 15:27:50
Post by: beavis on August 15, 2003, 15:27:50
How is "BEFORE" relevant? All time is simultaneous, and if he exists really far away, some people would see him existing before us and some would see him after.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Lasher on August 15, 2003, 15:42:18
Post by: Lasher on August 15, 2003, 15:42:18
quote:
Originally posted by beavis
The greatest thing Santa Clause ever did was to convince parents that he did not exist.
The greatest thing the Easter Bunny ever did was to begin laying easter eggs.
Lasher
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Varner-LaPrade on August 15, 2003, 19:49:29
Post by: Varner-LaPrade on August 15, 2003, 19:49:29
Heaven is an actually place,but not permanent one. In Sichtin's
books "THE EARTH CRONICHLES" he explains heaven as a spacestation
for the Anunnaki.
books "THE EARTH CRONICHLES" he explains heaven as a spacestation
for the Anunnaki.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 15, 2003, 22:15:47
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 15, 2003, 22:15:47
But Sitchin says nothing about going there after you die. [xx(]
The only thing remotely close to that idea is in certain Egyptian rituals, where prayers are made that the particular Pharaoah be granted permission to travel to Nibiru and eat of the foods of life and drink of the waters of life, but of course by that time he would already be dead, implying that Nibiru has spiritual significance as well as a physical one...
A place that resembles the christian idea of heaven is beyond the Buddhic level as described in Robert Bruce's Astral Dynamics. I believe this is where the idea of heaven comes from. Just read Robert's section on it. Sounds exactly like heaven is told to be like.
The only thing remotely close to that idea is in certain Egyptian rituals, where prayers are made that the particular Pharaoah be granted permission to travel to Nibiru and eat of the foods of life and drink of the waters of life, but of course by that time he would already be dead, implying that Nibiru has spiritual significance as well as a physical one...
A place that resembles the christian idea of heaven is beyond the Buddhic level as described in Robert Bruce's Astral Dynamics. I believe this is where the idea of heaven comes from. Just read Robert's section on it. Sounds exactly like heaven is told to be like.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Varner-LaPrade on August 15, 2003, 22:20:00
Post by: Varner-LaPrade on August 15, 2003, 22:20:00
But humans can reach heaven,we wanted to go there so much we built a tower "THE TOWER OF BABEL",but was destroyed and we were dived in three group s with different tounges.
Man should never go to heaven!!!!!
Man should never go to heaven!!!!!
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 15, 2003, 23:42:20
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 15, 2003, 23:42:20
The 'heaven' you are referring to is different than what is meant on this topic. The term 'heaven' is modern. The Sumerians and Egyptians referred to Nibiru with such terms as (as closely translated into English as possible based on Sitchin's work) 'The [Celestial Body] of One Million Years', the 'Celestial Abode', 'Abode of Ra', etc., etc. 'Heaven' was applied to Sumerian and Egyptian mythologies because it was something to relate the ancient religion to modern ones and make it easier to understand. The ideas of Heaven have some roots in Egypt and Sumer, but for the most part it must be based on spiritual experiences since it resembles so accurately the spiritual dimension Robert Bruce described.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Leviiathan on August 16, 2003, 00:52:12
Post by: Leviiathan on August 16, 2003, 00:52:12
Truthseeker:
Ah yes, that one single quote you posted about Satan "the greatest thing that Satan ever accomplished was having man deny his existence" (Not accurate, but close enough to the original quote).
I'm agnostic, but I realize I am also a misguided spiritualist who has no grasp of what is going on. Since I am agnostic to almost all forms of spiritual belief, it is hard for me to fall back on a lie, or perhaps the greatest fear of all: ignorance.
As I write this right now, I realize that there is no fear in ignorance other than vanity. What greater irony would there be than to die for a cause only to find out that it was a lie.
I'm skeptical to biblical truth -- because it is errant, diametric, and defeated by page 2 through an illogical account of purpose -- but at the same time, I am not proud or -- how shall I put it -- arrogant enough to turn a blind eye to it. Unfortunately, the more I try and remain agnostic and gray, the more I realize how unforgiving a spiritual world is towards those with a gray perspective.
No matter what I believe these days, there is always that lingering doubt . . . "what if. . . ."
= = =
Whenever I contemplate on God, I think of Him as more of an undefined variable in a great mathematical universe. I think it is necessary this way, for definition brings restriction. I think we can establish that God is undefined because He has no properties, but we can also establish that God, as a number, is absolute and unlimited. So why then, should it make sense to place restrictions, adjectives, or limitations on something so unknown? (more than to simply to satisfy our egos)
Ah yes, that one single quote you posted about Satan "the greatest thing that Satan ever accomplished was having man deny his existence" (Not accurate, but close enough to the original quote).
I'm agnostic, but I realize I am also a misguided spiritualist who has no grasp of what is going on. Since I am agnostic to almost all forms of spiritual belief, it is hard for me to fall back on a lie, or perhaps the greatest fear of all: ignorance.
As I write this right now, I realize that there is no fear in ignorance other than vanity. What greater irony would there be than to die for a cause only to find out that it was a lie.
I'm skeptical to biblical truth -- because it is errant, diametric, and defeated by page 2 through an illogical account of purpose -- but at the same time, I am not proud or -- how shall I put it -- arrogant enough to turn a blind eye to it. Unfortunately, the more I try and remain agnostic and gray, the more I realize how unforgiving a spiritual world is towards those with a gray perspective.
No matter what I believe these days, there is always that lingering doubt . . . "what if. . . ."
= = =
Whenever I contemplate on God, I think of Him as more of an undefined variable in a great mathematical universe. I think it is necessary this way, for definition brings restriction. I think we can establish that God is undefined because He has no properties, but we can also establish that God, as a number, is absolute and unlimited. So why then, should it make sense to place restrictions, adjectives, or limitations on something so unknown? (more than to simply to satisfy our egos)
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 17, 2003, 08:52:44
Post by: Syko Dragon on August 17, 2003, 08:52:44
To Beavis:
Well, time in its Trueist Essence may be simultaneous, but the time in which I'm referring to is Geometric Time, which has a beginning, a middle, an end, and all the rest in between...
You can keep arguing that people were to see him far away and some may see him close up, but that is still an invalid argument to try to justify since You're not taking into account what I just said...Instead, You're just going on for the sake of arguing, so I probably won't respond any further for Your Amusement and Closed-Mindedness...
In terms of Your last response, it is an invalid argument in that You just used MY Point in a different way to try to create a seemingly counter arguement against me, using My Point in Your Words does NOT have any relevence towards Growth, just for Arguing (maybe a sense of retaliation from other posts, I don't know)...
You say if some see him before us, and some see him after us, then that is inconsistent with time being simultaneous, and You are arguing from a Geometric Time stand-point...Therefore, to Clarify further and show the relevence of "Before", the "Before" I was referring to is that from the Beginning of anybody seeing anything at all (since a "Before" in Geometric Time assumes a Beginning of such events, not of a Simultaneous Nature)...Thus, the difference of the supposed "Original" Satan and the "Created" one...
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
Well, time in its Trueist Essence may be simultaneous, but the time in which I'm referring to is Geometric Time, which has a beginning, a middle, an end, and all the rest in between...
You can keep arguing that people were to see him far away and some may see him close up, but that is still an invalid argument to try to justify since You're not taking into account what I just said...Instead, You're just going on for the sake of arguing, so I probably won't respond any further for Your Amusement and Closed-Mindedness...
In terms of Your last response, it is an invalid argument in that You just used MY Point in a different way to try to create a seemingly counter arguement against me, using My Point in Your Words does NOT have any relevence towards Growth, just for Arguing (maybe a sense of retaliation from other posts, I don't know)...
You say if some see him before us, and some see him after us, then that is inconsistent with time being simultaneous, and You are arguing from a Geometric Time stand-point...Therefore, to Clarify further and show the relevence of "Before", the "Before" I was referring to is that from the Beginning of anybody seeing anything at all (since a "Before" in Geometric Time assumes a Beginning of such events, not of a Simultaneous Nature)...Thus, the difference of the supposed "Original" Satan and the "Created" one...
Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Allanon on August 21, 2003, 16:11:38
Post by: Allanon on August 21, 2003, 16:11:38
Jesus Christ is Lord and the Devil is nothing more than a selfish creation.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 21, 2003, 17:16:56
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 21, 2003, 17:16:56
Why didn't Jesus tell us to pray to him? I mean, if he wanted to save us by getting himself murdered, wouldn't he at least tell us about that sort of thing himself rather than waiting for the church to take about 350 years to decide that's what he meant?
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Allanon on August 22, 2003, 01:46:11
Post by: Allanon on August 22, 2003, 01:46:11
Don't lean on your own understanding but trust in the infinite knowledge of the Lord.
God does what He does how he does it because He is God!!!!
Love Him for giving you life and beleive on the Son He has sent.
God does what He does how he does it because He is God!!!!
Love Him for giving you life and beleive on the Son He has sent.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Tab on August 22, 2003, 02:31:33
Post by: Tab on August 22, 2003, 02:31:33
Oh yes, don't think for yourself, just do what we tell you even though it's logically, historically, and verifiably incorrect.
Guess that's what happens when an organization has more power than the government itself for 1300 some years.
Guess that's what happens when an organization has more power than the government itself for 1300 some years.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Allanon on August 22, 2003, 10:25:52
Post by: Allanon on August 22, 2003, 10:25:52
Read the Word of God and decide for yourself what is right. God is God and you are just a creation. Don't play the fool and reject God's warnings. You don't have to listen to an organized source. You can read the Bible and find out what the Truth is for yourself.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: LA FORET MAUVE on August 22, 2003, 13:08:26
Post by: LA FORET MAUVE on August 22, 2003, 13:08:26
...i think God is our creation [:D]
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: LA FORET MAUVE on August 22, 2003, 13:14:25
Post by: LA FORET MAUVE on August 22, 2003, 13:14:25
when i was in a monastery, the subject of the devil couldn't go out of my mind and interrogations. I went for a calm walk in the monastery's garden with the intent to ask God if the Devil was real and what could the Devil be...
Subitely, i felt strongly that the answer was waiting for me to be see in an old well (not sure of my english here, it is the thing where you catch water deep in the ground, see what i mean ?)...i really felt that in an intuitive way deep in my heart.
I went to look inside...and what did i see ?
Myself reflecting in the water.
Subitely, i felt strongly that the answer was waiting for me to be see in an old well (not sure of my english here, it is the thing where you catch water deep in the ground, see what i mean ?)...i really felt that in an intuitive way deep in my heart.
I went to look inside...and what did i see ?
Myself reflecting in the water.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Allanon on August 22, 2003, 13:20:51
Post by: Allanon on August 22, 2003, 13:20:51
You are NOT the Devil but you do have a fallen nature. Don't let Satan fool you into thinking that you do not deserve eternal life. It is God's gift and He paid a high price for it.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Adrian on August 22, 2003, 13:26:10
Post by: Adrian on August 22, 2003, 13:26:10
Greetings Mustardseed,
Angels are Divine beings on a different evolutionary path to humans. Demons are the dark reciprocals of Angels and also exist.
The devil is a construct of the churches in line with concept of God as a deity, i.e. a personified being. Accordingly the church teaches satan is also a personified being, both integral to the churches concepts of "heaven" and "hell". The constructs of "heaven" and "hell" and therefore of "satan" where necessary to control the congregations, and even whole communities or countries. They teach those who do not believe in their concept of God, or accept Jesus as a saviour will burn in "hell" and damnation for all eternity.
In reality, God, The All is the entire Universe uncluding us, and we are God. Nothing can exist outside of The All including satan. Hell does not exist "down below" because the physical world is as low as you can get. The concepts of "hell" originate in the lower Astral which seem like "hells" to those who are there. The "hells" are nevertheless still all aspects of the Universe and therefore of God and there is no entity known as "satan" residing there.
With best regards,
Adrian.
quote:
Originally posted by Mustardseed
It seems that a lot of people believe Demons to be real, and also Angels. Some believe that there is such a being as God, now, how about the...Devil!!!. I think that I am concluding that he must be real too and not just
Angels are Divine beings on a different evolutionary path to humans. Demons are the dark reciprocals of Angels and also exist.
The devil is a construct of the churches in line with concept of God as a deity, i.e. a personified being. Accordingly the church teaches satan is also a personified being, both integral to the churches concepts of "heaven" and "hell". The constructs of "heaven" and "hell" and therefore of "satan" where necessary to control the congregations, and even whole communities or countries. They teach those who do not believe in their concept of God, or accept Jesus as a saviour will burn in "hell" and damnation for all eternity.
In reality, God, The All is the entire Universe uncluding us, and we are God. Nothing can exist outside of The All including satan. Hell does not exist "down below" because the physical world is as low as you can get. The concepts of "hell" originate in the lower Astral which seem like "hells" to those who are there. The "hells" are nevertheless still all aspects of the Universe and therefore of God and there is no entity known as "satan" residing there.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: LA FORET MAUVE on August 22, 2003, 13:29:17
Post by: LA FORET MAUVE on August 22, 2003, 13:29:17
quote:
Originally posted by Allanon
You are NOT the Devil
I think you didn't understood the point [:)]
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Tab on August 22, 2003, 13:58:16
Post by: Tab on August 22, 2003, 13:58:16
quote:
Originally posted by Allanon
Read the Word of God and decide for yourself what is right.
Did it. For 15 years. And I decided what was a lot more right in a lot of ways. Have you ever read anything else? You'd be surprised.
quote:
Originally posted by Allanon
God is God and you are *snip* a creation.
Oh I agree wholeheartedly. Not so much in the manner that God said "omfgzor I'm bored I think I'll make ppl and make them do crAzy stuff", but more in the manner that God is not a being, spirit, deity, or force but an infinite cause existing in the only true reality, and that from that divine prototype a shadow world of illusion was fashioned, my body included, in order for the cause to realize it's effect and vice versa.
"just" was removed because it makes me, the creation, seem inferior to the creator, when in absolute truth we are one in the same and merely reflections of each other through the mirror of brahma.
Or something like that.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Allanon on August 31, 2003, 23:39:43
Post by: Allanon on August 31, 2003, 23:39:43
quote:
meet the devil when I was tripping on shrooms, he gave me a tour of hell & asked me to stay but I said no thanks. It was the most interesting trip I have ever had.
That guy sucks. Why do people defend him?
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 31, 2003, 23:57:51
Post by: no_leaf_clover on August 31, 2003, 23:57:51
quote:
That guy sucks. Why do people defend him?
Satan is only misunderstood. Be nice to Satan, and Satan will be defeated. If you say Satan sucks, Satan has been given more power! Neither defend him nor attack him.. Let him be, and don't let him affect your judgement.
Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good.
--Romans 12:21
.....JUST KIDDING! [8D]
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Allanon on September 02, 2003, 01:19:09
Post by: Allanon on September 02, 2003, 01:19:09
quote:
Satan is only misunderstood. Be nice to Satan, and Satan will be defeated. If you say Satan sucks, Satan has been given more power! Neither defend him nor attack him.. Let him be, and don't let him affect your judgement.
I hate Satan and will see him as my Lord Jesus Christ defeats Him and throws him to the lake of fire. Click on this link to see a good visual interpretation of it.
http://www.sanctuarygc.org/Revelation/revelation18.html
http://www.revelationillustrated.com/shop/image24.asp
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Mustardseed on September 02, 2003, 05:01:41
Post by: Mustardseed on September 02, 2003, 05:01:41
Dear Adrian. Get ready for some irony ok. So.....YOU have the answer to all the questions!! (I think not). You know how it all works and have all wisdom etc. Sorry Mr. Administrator. I resent your high handed dogmatic way of explaining what you BELIEVE to be the answer, to my question. You might be the administrator becourse of your consistent posting but as it says in the Bible, "a fool is known by his many words". Please take my advise and remember to include the sentence. I THINK or I BELIEVE, otherwise you could lead people astray into following your teaching when really they should ponder these things themselves. By the way I think you are ok so do not take it personal, this is just my opinion on your post.A bit of grassroot critiqe of your stars, and post.
Regards Mustardseed
Regards Mustardseed
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Tisha on September 02, 2003, 05:32:15
Post by: Tisha on September 02, 2003, 05:32:15
The universe is vast and all-encompassing, and God is All. In His/Her universe, he/she created the realm of ALL POSSIBILITY, and set the universe spinning. There is the potential for good, the potential for evil. A creating force and a destroying one, both doing its business simultaneously. (Please note that the destroying force is not necessarily evil . . . without decomposition, for instance, we'd have no fertile soil from which to grow our food!).
From this realm of all possibilities emerges the World of Form.
What "exists" in the world of Form is largely up to its inhabitants. We have been given the raw material from which to create our world, like children given a set of blocks.
Before we can bring something from the realm of all possibilities into the world of form, we first must create it in our thoughts. So after this long preface, I finally come to my POINT:
The more we send our thoughts toward something, the more power we give it. Sorry, but this not my opinion, it's been proven over and over and over again in this world.
People send evil thoughts toward the objects of their hate. Hateful thoughts are evil. They and create an awful reality of their own and do a lot of damage.
Our powerful beliefs DO have an effect on the universe. They create thoughtforms, and these thoughtforms can take on lives of themselves and actually start doing harm. The more people believe in them, the more powerful they become. Which explains a lot of neg and supposedly satanic activity, if you ask me . . . it is a product of sick, evil, resentful, obsessive minds.
There is so much mental illness, bad intent, and resentment/hate in this world, there is no wonder that demons and so-called "satan" exist.
So is the devil real? He sure as heck is NOW.
Thanks a LOT guys.
From this realm of all possibilities emerges the World of Form.
What "exists" in the world of Form is largely up to its inhabitants. We have been given the raw material from which to create our world, like children given a set of blocks.
Before we can bring something from the realm of all possibilities into the world of form, we first must create it in our thoughts. So after this long preface, I finally come to my POINT:
The more we send our thoughts toward something, the more power we give it. Sorry, but this not my opinion, it's been proven over and over and over again in this world.
People send evil thoughts toward the objects of their hate. Hateful thoughts are evil. They and create an awful reality of their own and do a lot of damage.
Our powerful beliefs DO have an effect on the universe. They create thoughtforms, and these thoughtforms can take on lives of themselves and actually start doing harm. The more people believe in them, the more powerful they become. Which explains a lot of neg and supposedly satanic activity, if you ask me . . . it is a product of sick, evil, resentful, obsessive minds.
There is so much mental illness, bad intent, and resentment/hate in this world, there is no wonder that demons and so-called "satan" exist.
So is the devil real? He sure as heck is NOW.
Thanks a LOT guys.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 02, 2003, 06:01:11
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 02, 2003, 06:01:11
quote:
Originally posted by Allanon
I hate Satan and will see him as my Lord Jesus Christ defeats Him and throws him to the lake of fire. Click on this link to see a good visual interpretation of it.
http://www.sanctuarygc.org/Revelation/revelation18.html
http://www.revelationillustrated.com/shop/image24.asp
According to the Bible, you really aren't supposed to hate anything, including Satan or any other of God's creations. Those pics are like something out of a fairy tell. You'll never see anything like that in real life. Sorry. No one ever has, and no one ever will.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Allanon on September 02, 2003, 18:00:16
Post by: Allanon on September 02, 2003, 18:00:16
quote:
According to the Bible, you really aren't supposed to hate anything, including Satan or any other of God's creations.
Psalm 97
10 Let those who love the LORD hate evil,
for he guards the lives of his faithful ones
and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
quote:
Those pics are like something out of a fairy tell. You'll never see anything like that in real life. Sorry. No one ever has, and no one ever will.
2 Peter 1
16We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 02, 2003, 18:15:25
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 02, 2003, 18:15:25
Allanon, you know just as well as I that that are places in the Bible that say the exact opposite. The difference is that I'm not going to waste my time going to go hunt them down to rub them in your face. I'm sure you know Jesus never promoted hate, ever, and Christianity (your religion, more or less, though not necessarily the religion from which your first quote originates), is based on Jesus and his teachings over all other texts and prophets/teachers/etc.
Of course not. No one ever lies, especially the church, and especially back when it was still a cult! Sounds a bit suspicious that they would put such a thing in the Bible. If Peter or whoever was being truthful, he would see no reason to write such a thing, whether to reassure himself or others.
quote:
16We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Of course not. No one ever lies, especially the church, and especially back when it was still a cult! Sounds a bit suspicious that they would put such a thing in the Bible. If Peter or whoever was being truthful, he would see no reason to write such a thing, whether to reassure himself or others.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Mustardseed on September 03, 2003, 04:27:08
Post by: Mustardseed on September 03, 2003, 04:27:08
Well, no leaf clover listen for a moment here. You say that you know for a fact that the bible says this and that but are too busy to find the places, and then use this statement to justify your viewpoint. At least Allannon tells you what he believes and why and where it says so. It is so easy to debunk arguments in this manner but not very wise. If you want to qoute the bible do so but let us know your referance then. Otherwise it makes no sense. Any proper argument scientific postulate or theory and even the law, will include a referance list so people can check if the qoutes say, what you say they say. It might be better if you simply state that you do not believe in the Bible as the word of God. Then you do not have to adhere to its contents. Allannon has a point and his qoute is right on. It does say that. So .....how about it. I would agree that it is right to hate evil. A gardener must not only love flowers but also hate weeds. Certainly makes sense to me. And Tirsha this stuf about "it is proven over and over" is more of the same baloney. I challenge you about that ..Where is the proof !!!!! there are many things I absolutely hate, and so do many others and I do not believe that to be nessesarily a wrong emotion. It seems too Hindu all encompassing lovey dovey . Read RB s books about counter messures and using agression. I have had several encounters with posessed people and bad spirits and believe you me they will torment you if you encounter them with this pacifistic attitude. I do believe that God has emotions and I believe that he is capable of hating as well, and that he does, and according to my belief we are made in "his picture". I have no proof of this but it is my BELIEF .....prove me wrong!
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Tisha on September 03, 2003, 12:44:04
Post by: Tisha on September 03, 2003, 12:44:04
Aggression and force are not the same as hate. It is proper to react to a threatening force with force of your own.
And, love is not weak. "lovey-dovey" is not real love. Love is strong and powerful, as powerful as hate. So pick your tonic. I've picked mine!
And, love is not weak. "lovey-dovey" is not real love. Love is strong and powerful, as powerful as hate. So pick your tonic. I've picked mine!
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 03, 2003, 16:20:25
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 03, 2003, 16:20:25
Thanks, Mustardseed. I went out looking to find such quotes only to find quotes from the Bible that support hate in certain situations, which I found suprising, coming from a religion based (or supposed to be based) on the teachings of Jesus. I'm not saying there are no such quotes as the ones I mentioned before, but they're obviously much overlooked or in small numbers or both.
If proof is all that matters to you, there's nothing wrong with that, but I find it odd that you're here telling me to get proof for my statements when the Bible itself is and has been a work of fiction. I was telling Allanon that Christianity is (or maybe better worded as 'should be') a religion of love, being based on the teachings of Jesus. Hate is negative, and hate is not the way to go, whether you feel it for someone you know or an entity you happen to belief exists. Jesus could tell you that much himself, but maybe you'd want proof of that, too.
Does anyone know if anyone has approached Robert Bruce's argument that the Bible is a complete work of fiction and has no proof? I thought I saw that on a couple different topics but I wasn't following it that closely. [:)]
If proof is all that matters to you, there's nothing wrong with that, but I find it odd that you're here telling me to get proof for my statements when the Bible itself is and has been a work of fiction. I was telling Allanon that Christianity is (or maybe better worded as 'should be') a religion of love, being based on the teachings of Jesus. Hate is negative, and hate is not the way to go, whether you feel it for someone you know or an entity you happen to belief exists. Jesus could tell you that much himself, but maybe you'd want proof of that, too.
Does anyone know if anyone has approached Robert Bruce's argument that the Bible is a complete work of fiction and has no proof? I thought I saw that on a couple different topics but I wasn't following it that closely. [:)]
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Tab on September 03, 2003, 16:32:24
Post by: Tab on September 03, 2003, 16:32:24
I actually picked the bible up a few days ago out of utter boredom. After reading a little ways into the old testament, I couldn't help thinking "WTF? Do people actually READ the bible?!?"
I mean, the guys of Sodom and Gomorrah tried to rape the damn angels. Wtf? Then Lot was like "omg guys my daughters are virgins rape them instead".
Later Lot's two daughters wind up getting him drunk and taking turns in bed with him.
Before all that, when Abraham is travelling through Egypt during the famine, he says Sarah is his sister so Pharaoh will take her and give him a bunch of sheep and goods.
And that was like not even the first half of Genesis. >_O
I mean, the guys of Sodom and Gomorrah tried to rape the damn angels. Wtf? Then Lot was like "omg guys my daughters are virgins rape them instead".
Later Lot's two daughters wind up getting him drunk and taking turns in bed with him.
Before all that, when Abraham is travelling through Egypt during the famine, he says Sarah is his sister so Pharaoh will take her and give him a bunch of sheep and goods.
And that was like not even the first half of Genesis. >_O
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Allanon on September 06, 2003, 00:40:13
Post by: Allanon on September 06, 2003, 00:40:13
This post by Allanon has been deleted as it was one of 6 replicas of a post originally submitted by Chill in topic -
Be warned: The spirit-war is well underway...
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6894&whichpage=2
Regards
James.
Be warned: The spirit-war is well underway...
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6894&whichpage=2
Regards
James.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Mustardseed on September 08, 2003, 19:31:39
Post by: Mustardseed on September 08, 2003, 19:31:39
(Qoute)
I'm not saying there are no such quotes as the ones I mentioned before, but they're obviously much overlooked or in small numbers or both.
(Answer)Ha You could not find them
(Qoute)
the Bible itself is and has been a work of fiction.......
Does anyone know if anyone has approached Robert Bruce's argument that the Bible is a complete work of fiction
(Answer) You know what No leaf clover......!! I have decided you are not worth my time. You argue with such a degree of ignorance qouting RB and anyone else or just making up opinions off the top of your head,you my young friend in my book are .....a fool. So in light of that I will refrain from wasting more of my time posting to you, till you either get a bit more mature or older ....and that might happen simuntaneusly.
Regards Mustardseed
I'm not saying there are no such quotes as the ones I mentioned before, but they're obviously much overlooked or in small numbers or both.
(Answer)Ha You could not find them
(Qoute)
the Bible itself is and has been a work of fiction.......
Does anyone know if anyone has approached Robert Bruce's argument that the Bible is a complete work of fiction
(Answer) You know what No leaf clover......!! I have decided you are not worth my time. You argue with such a degree of ignorance qouting RB and anyone else or just making up opinions off the top of your head,you my young friend in my book are .....a fool. So in light of that I will refrain from wasting more of my time posting to you, till you either get a bit more mature or older ....and that might happen simuntaneusly.
Regards Mustardseed
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 09, 2003, 20:04:34
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 09, 2003, 20:04:34
quote:
(Answer) You know what No leaf clover......!! I have decided you are not worth my time. You argue with such a degree of ignorance qouting RB and anyone else or just making up opinions off the top of your head,you my young friend in my book are .....a fool. So in light of that I will refrain from wasting more of my time posting to you, till you either get a bit more mature or older ....and that might happen simuntaneusly.
Regards Mustardseed
Robert Bruce might not have used the word 'fiction' but the idea is the same and 'fiction' does technically apply to the Bible since it has no evidence that supports it beyond any doubt. It seems to me you're simply trying to avoid the question and take the pressure you put on yourself by having to come up with an answer by calling me a 'fool', etc., which honestly doesn't bother me. You can call me what you like, but the Bible has no proof.
In all fairness, I think I should say that the only reason the Bible is brought under such fire for having no proof is because it is a religious and therefore an obviously biased document; that's it. It's a bit too late to complain about such 'unprovable' texts, because our history is actually based on them.
For example, our modern views on ancient Egyptian history owe as much to the greek historian Herodotus as they do to Egyptian archaeology itself. It was Herodotus that went to Greece and told us exactly who built what and why, yet how did he know? And where is his proof? It is largely because of Herodotus that we believe Khufu built the first Pyramid, yet egyptian texts themselves tell us that all 3 Pyramids and the Sphinx existed before Khufu was born. There is neither 'proof' * of Herodotus's claim nor the egyptian texts', but for simplicity, archaeologists take Herodotus's claim over Egypt's, having not to want to explain where the Pyramids must've really came from or to deal with alien or Atlantis theories.
My point is that, when it comes to history, and especially ancient history, you might as well forget trying to prove something happened in the same way as you can prove that the ocean is composed of water. There's simply no way to tell if something really happened, or if it really happened the way we thought it did, or if we're just being lied to. You can sometimes tell when something started existing in a form that it still remains in to this day, like roughly when a castle is built, but you can't really say anything about people said and did around that castle and prove it. History is almost all supposed.
* There is actually evidence that the Pyramids and Sphinx are much older than could be possible for Khufu to have started their construction, but since archaeologists deem the evidence utter bullcrap, I say that neither really have the evidence required to be 'scientific'. But then again, what does? We would be hard pressed to even prove that such things as the American Civil War took place, should we have to.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Mustardseed on September 10, 2003, 03:33:11
Post by: Mustardseed on September 10, 2003, 03:33:11
( Found on the net ) Many critics of Christianity claim that the Bible we read today has been changed in major ways since the originals were written. For example, some have claimed that there are "hundreds of thousands of errors" in our present Bibles. Some have claimed that the Catholic Church in the fourth and fifth centuries made major revisions of the Bible in order to support their own peculiar doctrine. Still others have claimed that certain inspired books have been kept out of the Bible (for example the Gospel of Thomas).
All of these claims rest on the assumption that we do not have available to us the original New Testament writings. Although it is true that we do not have actual copies of the original manuscripts of the gospels or the letters, what we do have is very solid evidence that the current Greek text of the New Testament is extremely reliable.
Our Greek text is based on some very ancient manuscripts. Some of the most important manuscripts available today are listed below.
1. The Codex Vaticanus, or Codex B. The Codex Vaticanus is a vellum codex on 759 pages in uncial script. The manuscript has been dated to around AD 350 . It contains the entire New Testament, except Hebrews 9:13-end, I and II Timothy, Titus and Revelation. It also contains all of the Old Testament in Greek except the first few chapters of Genesis and several Psalms. The manuscript has been kept in the Vatican since at least 1481.
2. The Codex Sinaiticus, or Codex Aleph. The Sinaiticus manuscript received its name because it was discovered at St. Catharines Monastery on Mt. Sainai in 1844 by the biblical scholar Tischendorf. It was found in a basket of old parchments which were about to be thrown into a fire. This manuscript is now in the British Museum. Like the Vatican manuscript, it has been dated to around 350 AD. It contains much of the Old Testament in Greek, but most significantly, it has the entire New Testament in Greek.
3. The Alexandrian Codex, or Codex A. This is a fifth-century codex, containing most of the Old Testament and all the New Testament except a few pages of Matthew, two from 1st John and three from 2 Corinthians. This manuscript was found in Alexandria in Egypt, but was given as a gift to the king of England in 1621. The manuscript is now located on the British Library.
4. The Washington Manuscript. This manuscript from the end of the fourth century contains the four gospels. It is especially significant, as it contains Mark 16:9-20, unlike the three manuscripts already mentioned.
5. The Chester Beatty Papyri. This is a collection of a number of papyrus codex fragments, located in the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin, Ireland. One of the papyri contains thirty leaves of the New Testament in Greek which have been dated to the late second or early third century (ie. around 200 AD). Another includes 86 of 104 leaves of the letters of Paul from around from the early third century.
6. The Bodmer Papyri. This is a group of manuscripts found in the Bodmer Library of World Literature. Included are a complete manuscript of Luke and John dated to 175-225 BC, as well as a manuscript of over half of the book of John which has been dated as early as 150 AD.
7. The John Rylands Fragment. This papyrus fragment contains only John 18:31-33 and 37,38, which would make it an insignificant find except that it has been dated to 130 AD. This fragment was copied within fifty years of the death of the apostle John.
From this list, one can see that we have manuscripts of the entire Bible from about 350 AD and of significant portions of the Bible from around 200 AD or before. Claims that the New Testament was added to, subtracted from or changed in any significant way are indefensible in the light of this evidence.
Additional evidence in support of the accuracy of the New Testament we have in our hands today is found in the writings of the early church "fathers." Writers such as Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr and many others wrote extensively in the first and second centuries AD, quoting from a large proportion of the entire New Testament, providing further evidence in support of the accuracy of our New Testament text.
As to the claims that there are "hundreds of thousands of errors" in our New Testament text, this is based on the nearly ten thousand manuscripts which we have. Virtually all the supposed errors are minor slips of the pen of the many scribes who copied the Greek New Testament. Through careful analysis of the thousands of manuscripts, scholars are able to reproduce a Greek text which is a virtually exact copy of the original. To quote Sir Frederic Kenyon, the world famous Biblical scholar and former director of the British Museum for twenty-one years, who sums up the evidence nicely;
"The Christian can take the whole Bible in his hands and say without fear or hesitation that he holds in it the true word of God, handed down without essential loss from generation to generation throughout the centuries."
All of these claims rest on the assumption that we do not have available to us the original New Testament writings. Although it is true that we do not have actual copies of the original manuscripts of the gospels or the letters, what we do have is very solid evidence that the current Greek text of the New Testament is extremely reliable.
Our Greek text is based on some very ancient manuscripts. Some of the most important manuscripts available today are listed below.
1. The Codex Vaticanus, or Codex B. The Codex Vaticanus is a vellum codex on 759 pages in uncial script. The manuscript has been dated to around AD 350 . It contains the entire New Testament, except Hebrews 9:13-end, I and II Timothy, Titus and Revelation. It also contains all of the Old Testament in Greek except the first few chapters of Genesis and several Psalms. The manuscript has been kept in the Vatican since at least 1481.
2. The Codex Sinaiticus, or Codex Aleph. The Sinaiticus manuscript received its name because it was discovered at St. Catharines Monastery on Mt. Sainai in 1844 by the biblical scholar Tischendorf. It was found in a basket of old parchments which were about to be thrown into a fire. This manuscript is now in the British Museum. Like the Vatican manuscript, it has been dated to around 350 AD. It contains much of the Old Testament in Greek, but most significantly, it has the entire New Testament in Greek.
3. The Alexandrian Codex, or Codex A. This is a fifth-century codex, containing most of the Old Testament and all the New Testament except a few pages of Matthew, two from 1st John and three from 2 Corinthians. This manuscript was found in Alexandria in Egypt, but was given as a gift to the king of England in 1621. The manuscript is now located on the British Library.
4. The Washington Manuscript. This manuscript from the end of the fourth century contains the four gospels. It is especially significant, as it contains Mark 16:9-20, unlike the three manuscripts already mentioned.
5. The Chester Beatty Papyri. This is a collection of a number of papyrus codex fragments, located in the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin, Ireland. One of the papyri contains thirty leaves of the New Testament in Greek which have been dated to the late second or early third century (ie. around 200 AD). Another includes 86 of 104 leaves of the letters of Paul from around from the early third century.
6. The Bodmer Papyri. This is a group of manuscripts found in the Bodmer Library of World Literature. Included are a complete manuscript of Luke and John dated to 175-225 BC, as well as a manuscript of over half of the book of John which has been dated as early as 150 AD.
7. The John Rylands Fragment. This papyrus fragment contains only John 18:31-33 and 37,38, which would make it an insignificant find except that it has been dated to 130 AD. This fragment was copied within fifty years of the death of the apostle John.
From this list, one can see that we have manuscripts of the entire Bible from about 350 AD and of significant portions of the Bible from around 200 AD or before. Claims that the New Testament was added to, subtracted from or changed in any significant way are indefensible in the light of this evidence.
Additional evidence in support of the accuracy of the New Testament we have in our hands today is found in the writings of the early church "fathers." Writers such as Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr and many others wrote extensively in the first and second centuries AD, quoting from a large proportion of the entire New Testament, providing further evidence in support of the accuracy of our New Testament text.
As to the claims that there are "hundreds of thousands of errors" in our New Testament text, this is based on the nearly ten thousand manuscripts which we have. Virtually all the supposed errors are minor slips of the pen of the many scribes who copied the Greek New Testament. Through careful analysis of the thousands of manuscripts, scholars are able to reproduce a Greek text which is a virtually exact copy of the original. To quote Sir Frederic Kenyon, the world famous Biblical scholar and former director of the British Museum for twenty-one years, who sums up the evidence nicely;
"The Christian can take the whole Bible in his hands and say without fear or hesitation that he holds in it the true word of God, handed down without essential loss from generation to generation throughout the centuries."
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: shadowdancer on September 11, 2003, 11:40:18
Post by: shadowdancer on September 11, 2003, 11:40:18
imho, the bible is not just filled with "mistakes" due to the incompetancy of, or personal perspective of, scribes through the ages....although the latter would be closer to what i understand as historical truth...divide the bible in half. old testament=predominately judaic and semitic thought, belief, mythology, esoteric and exoteric teaching. new testament=a relatively complete fabrication of history for the purposes of control of the masses. many of the texts you reference are dated post-nicea council!!! hello!!! [:P] i think there may be some truth to the idea that present day christians(of the temperment that actually try and follow the supposed teachings of "Jesus") are misled gnostics. [:O] sometimes i am harsh...[:D] just my opinion.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: shadowdancer on September 11, 2003, 11:45:32
Post by: shadowdancer on September 11, 2003, 11:45:32
sorry that i posted bout christianity....the debate should be elsewhere. my apologies. 
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: punkyou on September 12, 2003, 17:23:25
Post by: punkyou on September 12, 2003, 17:23:25
It is very easy for an atheist to discredit christianity and frankly serves his/her purposes. The truth is, Satan is real and if you understand his true identity, he is not afraid to reveal himself to you. It's the non-beleivers who refuse to accept a real satan, simply because the confirmation of satan, also confirms the reality of God. What's next? Hmmm...then you must be accountable for your actions and sins. Satan choses not to reveal himself to atheist/agnostics etc.... For the simple fact that if he did and every man recognized him for what he was, there would be a revival in this world beyond comprehension and everyone would flock to God! Why did Satan deceive Eve? Because she wouldn't have eaten the fruit from the tree of Knowledge and brought sin into the world. So...he continues to deceive man with lies and illusions.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Tab on September 12, 2003, 21:52:59
Post by: Tab on September 12, 2003, 21:52:59
Uh.. I don't think anyone here is an atheist buddy..
and stop making new names
and stop making new names
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 12, 2003, 22:04:35
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 12, 2003, 22:04:35
Tab - guess who's atheist! (...me!)
You can go with this. Or you can say that the whole thing is a deception, not from Satan, but from the next worst thing: an organization that was designed from the earliest to be efficient at one thing, and that was controlling the masses of people. Arguments like the one you made can sound convincing to the weak-willed and uninformed people. It basically scares them into believing in God, and that wouldn't be the way to go if you really wanted to be christian, or islamic or jewish for that matter.
The part of the Bible you quote, from the tale of Adam and Eve, comes from Sumeria. The Sumerians had an 'Epic of Creation' thousands of years before the Bible's version, and the Sumerian version went into much more detail but was polytheistic. The story would later pop up with a single 'God', who was called 'El', in the early versions of the jewish Bibles. You may have heard about the grammar 'errors', where God is written in Hebrew as a plural word, and is written as if God talks to himself or else has equals ("Behold! The Adam has became as one of us to know good and evil.", etc.). All of this is because the story came from an older story that involved multiple divine beings, known to the Sumerians as 'Annunaki'. 'Adam' is also called the Adam because Adam comes from the ancient word Adama, which can mean both clay and man ("God fashioned man from clay in his own image", etc.). I'll stop there, because beyond that some things have to be assumed, but all of that is accepted fact by archaeologists and historians.
quote:
It is very easy for an atheist to discredit christianity and frankly serves his/her purposes. The truth is, Satan is real and if you understand his true identity, he is not afraid to reveal himself to you. It's the non-beleivers who refuse to accept a real satan, simply because the confirmation of satan, also confirms the reality of God. What's next? Hmmm...then you must be accountable for your actions and sins. Satan choses not to reveal himself to atheist/agnostics etc.... For the simple fact that if he did and every man recognized him for what he was, there would be a revival in this world beyond comprehension and everyone would flock to God! Why did Satan deceive Eve? Because she wouldn't have eaten the fruit from the tree of Knowledge and brought sin into the world. So...he continues to deceive man with lies and illusions.
You can go with this. Or you can say that the whole thing is a deception, not from Satan, but from the next worst thing: an organization that was designed from the earliest to be efficient at one thing, and that was controlling the masses of people. Arguments like the one you made can sound convincing to the weak-willed and uninformed people. It basically scares them into believing in God, and that wouldn't be the way to go if you really wanted to be christian, or islamic or jewish for that matter.
The part of the Bible you quote, from the tale of Adam and Eve, comes from Sumeria. The Sumerians had an 'Epic of Creation' thousands of years before the Bible's version, and the Sumerian version went into much more detail but was polytheistic. The story would later pop up with a single 'God', who was called 'El', in the early versions of the jewish Bibles. You may have heard about the grammar 'errors', where God is written in Hebrew as a plural word, and is written as if God talks to himself or else has equals ("Behold! The Adam has became as one of us to know good and evil.", etc.). All of this is because the story came from an older story that involved multiple divine beings, known to the Sumerians as 'Annunaki'. 'Adam' is also called the Adam because Adam comes from the ancient word Adama, which can mean both clay and man ("God fashioned man from clay in his own image", etc.). I'll stop there, because beyond that some things have to be assumed, but all of that is accepted fact by archaeologists and historians.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Murt on September 29, 2003, 16:24:49
Post by: Murt on September 29, 2003, 16:24:49
I'd like ( if I may )to take you on a strange journey. ahh no thats a quote from rocky horrror picture show, but I read a little story once told by a very wise man. The story is called
The little Soul, and the Sun.
There once was a Soul, who knew itself to be the light.
This was a new Soul, and so, anxious for experience.
"I am the light", it said. "I am the light."
Yet all the knowing of it and all the saying of it could not substitute for the experience of it. And in the realm from which this Soul emerged, there was nothing BUT the the light.
Every Soul was grand, every Soul was magnificent, and every Soul shone with the brilliance of God's awesome light. And so the little Soul in question was as a candle in the sun. In the midst of the grandest light - of which it was a part - it could not see itself, nor experience itself, as Who and what it really is.
It came to pass that this Soul yearned and yearned to know itself. And so great was it's yearning that God one day said, "Do you know, little One, what you must do to satisfy this yearning of yours?"
"Oh, what, God? What? I'll do ANYTHING!" The little soul said.
"You must separate yourself from the rest of us," God answered, "and then you must call upon yourself the darkness."
"What is the darkness, O Holy One?" the little Soul asked.
"That which you are not," God replied, and the soul understood.
And so, this, the Soul did, removing itself from the all, yea, going even unto another realm. And in this realm the Soul had the power to call into it's experience all sorts of darkness. And this it did.
Yet in the midst of all this darkness did it cry out, " Father, Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?" Even as have we in our blackest times. Yet God has never forsaken us, but stands by us always ready, to call us home.
Therefore, be a light unto the darkness, and curse it not.
P.S. These aren't my words!
The little Soul, and the Sun.
There once was a Soul, who knew itself to be the light.
This was a new Soul, and so, anxious for experience.
"I am the light", it said. "I am the light."
Yet all the knowing of it and all the saying of it could not substitute for the experience of it. And in the realm from which this Soul emerged, there was nothing BUT the the light.
Every Soul was grand, every Soul was magnificent, and every Soul shone with the brilliance of God's awesome light. And so the little Soul in question was as a candle in the sun. In the midst of the grandest light - of which it was a part - it could not see itself, nor experience itself, as Who and what it really is.
It came to pass that this Soul yearned and yearned to know itself. And so great was it's yearning that God one day said, "Do you know, little One, what you must do to satisfy this yearning of yours?"
"Oh, what, God? What? I'll do ANYTHING!" The little soul said.
"You must separate yourself from the rest of us," God answered, "and then you must call upon yourself the darkness."
"What is the darkness, O Holy One?" the little Soul asked.
"That which you are not," God replied, and the soul understood.
And so, this, the Soul did, removing itself from the all, yea, going even unto another realm. And in this realm the Soul had the power to call into it's experience all sorts of darkness. And this it did.
Yet in the midst of all this darkness did it cry out, " Father, Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?" Even as have we in our blackest times. Yet God has never forsaken us, but stands by us always ready, to call us home.
Therefore, be a light unto the darkness, and curse it not.
P.S. These aren't my words!
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Nagual on September 30, 2003, 03:23:10
Post by: Nagual on September 30, 2003, 03:23:10
I am an atheist too! [:D]
Hum, sort of... I don't believe in all the many different gods/demons theories out there, but I believe something created and control the universe. All these god as an old man with a white bear, all white dressed winged angels living in a fluffy paradise... Or godesses with 6 arms and 4 legs... or gods with animals heads... Sorry, too much for me... [:P]
I met many "demon" looking things in my experiences, but they all ended up looking more like hungry wild animals, just like if you run into an hungry very intelligent/sneaky lion... or lawyer! [;)]
Notice, I don't say they are all wrong (even if only 1 can be true, or maybe a mix). I just say that I refuse to take any religion created by humans as the truth... I will create my own personal belief system based on my interpretation of my own experiences. It will be long and maybe hopeless but... that's the only true solution for me. Maybe I will do the wrong interpretation (like some or all the religions did apparently), but that's life... Maybe we just can't and will never be able to understand anything!
I still have problems with some concepts: who created the guy who created the universe? And who created the guy who created the guy who created the universe? etc... [;)])
Hum, sort of... I don't believe in all the many different gods/demons theories out there, but I believe something created and control the universe. All these god as an old man with a white bear, all white dressed winged angels living in a fluffy paradise... Or godesses with 6 arms and 4 legs... or gods with animals heads... Sorry, too much for me... [:P]
I met many "demon" looking things in my experiences, but they all ended up looking more like hungry wild animals, just like if you run into an hungry very intelligent/sneaky lion... or lawyer! [;)]
Notice, I don't say they are all wrong (even if only 1 can be true, or maybe a mix). I just say that I refuse to take any religion created by humans as the truth... I will create my own personal belief system based on my interpretation of my own experiences. It will be long and maybe hopeless but... that's the only true solution for me. Maybe I will do the wrong interpretation (like some or all the religions did apparently), but that's life... Maybe we just can't and will never be able to understand anything!
I still have problems with some concepts: who created the guy who created the universe? And who created the guy who created the guy who created the universe? etc... [;)])
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Murt on September 30, 2003, 15:27:03
Post by: Murt on September 30, 2003, 15:27:03
Hey Nagual,
Thats the great thing about God's universe, you have total free will to believe whatever you want !
Can I just say on your point about who created the Creator ect.
I had a real hang up about this, until it was explained to me that, there are three beings, which are of course one, and if you think about this concept as a triangle, which has no end or beginning.
The Triangle is eternal.
That sorted me out, but I try not to think about it too often !
Thats the great thing about God's universe, you have total free will to believe whatever you want !
Can I just say on your point about who created the Creator ect.
I had a real hang up about this, until it was explained to me that, there are three beings, which are of course one, and if you think about this concept as a triangle, which has no end or beginning.
The Triangle is eternal.
That sorted me out, but I try not to think about it too often !
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Logic on September 30, 2003, 16:58:15
Post by: Logic on September 30, 2003, 16:58:15
My church once said, that hell is made of sulfur fires, where they produce no light at all and burn like an acid. Yay dogma!
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: The Sapphrite on October 01, 2003, 12:58:14
Post by: The Sapphrite on October 01, 2003, 12:58:14
Is Satan real?? I believe he is. He lives somewhere in one of the spiritual planes. If you don't like Satan, you can always psychically attack him. It is not that difficult. But be careful because if you do not know what you are dealing with it might mess you up. If you want to know what Satan's energy feels like, it is kind of like a hot dark cloud of fear.
Title: Is the Devil real?
Post by: Mustardseed on August 12, 2003, 02:40:54
Post by: Mustardseed on August 12, 2003, 02:40:54
It seems that a lot of people believe Demons to be real, and also Angels. Some believe that there is such a being as God, now, how about the...Devil!!!. I think that I am concluding that he must be real too and not just the sum of everyones fears, your own subconsious fear or whatever . If he is real does he have a plan and if he does what is it. I have met angels in real life 2 times and they were helping me, I realise demons hinder, but what is the big picture...anyone??