I'm a Christian thinking of leaving as I'm losing all my faith in God for various reasons, the thing is I'm scared of going to Hell if I do.
Please can someone tell me, is there a Hell or do we all go to the same nice place when we die.
If there is a Hell is it like anything portraid in the bible? if not then why is it portraid like that in the bible, is'nt the bible meant to be God's word?
If you ask me, biological life is hell as much as it gets, what is worse than living in Iraq or Gaza strip with bombs and missiles impacting left and right from you and people screaming for family members they can't seem to find anywhere and searching for them in the hills of semi-alive, splattered bodies and dismembered parts.
In the higher dimensions, negative emotions usually trigger terrible landscapes and it can teleport you also into horrible dimensions, populated by horrible beings.
There are many religions worshipping many different deities.
But what kind of god is a god who demands obedience and worship and threatens to give you hell if you don't. That's a tyrant. To me it seems like the God of Christianity and the being known as Satan are one and the same thing, playing two sides at the same time, just like it happens in politics a lot of the time.
In the higher dimensions, negative emotions of any kind usually trigger terrible landscapes and it can also teleport you directly into horrible lower dimensions, populated by horrible beings.
You can always use magic there like you can do here, best served with visualizations. No matter what works best for you, a technique based on reflection is always best.
Whatever harmful intent is directed towards you, use your personal magic in a way that it reflects the attack back to it's sender. That will not only shield you, but also prevent this directed negative energy from going richoret on you and hitting a random innocent target and of course it will teach the attacker to better not mess with you.
The only real effective weapon at last used by the dark ones who are intending harm is the weapon of deception as it can be used to lower someone's else's shields. Only then can he be hit by direct attacks.
And there is plenty of deception used by the dark forces in the astral worlds of the afterlife.
If they, there tell you often enough that you can't fly - you won't fly.
If a person ends up going to one of these horrible places, will they be there for eternity? or just till they sort themselves out.
Reports of those who have had enough communications from beings from the other side make it seem that, since the effect is self-caused, when the conditions that caused it go away, they can move on to the next thing, whatever this is.
I know this is not too clear, but it's late for me.
Quote from: candyfloss on October 31, 2009, 21:05:20
I'm a Christian thinking of leaving as I'm losing all my faith in God for various reasons, the thing is I'm scared of going to Hell if I do.
Please can someone tell me, is there a Hell or do we all go to the same nice place when we die.
If there is a Hell is it like anything portraid in the bible? if not then why is it portraid like that in the bible, is'nt the bible meant to be God's word?
I'm going to answer your original question with what my understanding of the afterlife is.
The universe is thought-responsive. All aspects of it is. In the material world, it takes time and space for your thoughts to change your environment. But eventually, given the right circumstances, it does.
When you die you leave your body behind (or rather, your 'I Am' does). Now you are pure energy and your surroundings are experienced as pure energy. Being energy, it still is thought-responsive, only now time and space are irrelevant. So if you believe in hell you most certainly create it for yourself, and if the reason you believe in hell is a traumatic life, you will continue to create this hell-environment, until you resolve the reasons your life was traumatic. When you are able to come to terms and resolve your life circumstances, the reasons that you thought hell was a reality go away, and you begin to realize you are creating this hell, and you stop doing it. At this point, you will experience what is actually there, and are now ready to move on to something else, whatever that is.
We can do another thing with the Christian Bible, but be aware that there is a religion subforum and the historical origins and it's evolution (compilation, translations and how it has been interpreted) has been covered pretty thoroughly. I believe there are some old posts by Beth that cover most of this.
Good luck with your search.
I'm sorry, but I did not understand a word you just said, lol, it was all a bit cleaver for me.
Quote from: CFTraveler on October 31, 2009, 22:50:14
Now you are pure energy and your surroundings are experienced as pure energy. Being energy, it still is thought-responsive, only now time and space are irrelevant.
When you say time and space are irrelevant I guess I don't really understand what you mean. I think they are still relevant but they are different from how we perceive them while we are here in this dimension inhabiting these biological bodies with our energy. Time and space are the two things I seem to have the most difficulty understanding. I just wish our species was a little more advanced so that I could learn the true nature of time/space and be able to appreciate them for what they really are.
I never said about time and enjoy.
Quote from: kurtykurt42 on October 31, 2009, 23:35:11
When you say time and space are irrelevant I guess I don't really understand what you mean. I think they are still relevant but they are different from how we perceive them while we are here in this dimension inhabiting these biological bodies with our energy. Time and space are the two things I seem to have the most difficulty understanding. I just wish our species was a little more advanced so that I could learn the true nature of time/space and be able to appreciate them for what they really are.
Maybe I should have said 'time and space are differently relevant'. But you are right about them being different, instead of irrelevant. It's very hard to commiunicate these concepts.
Quote from: candyfloss on October 31, 2009, 21:05:20
I'm a Christian thinking of leaving as I'm losing all my faith in God for various reasons, the thing is I'm scared of going to Hell if I do.
Please can someone tell me, is there a Hell or do we all go to the same nice place when we die.
If there is a Hell is it like anything portraid in the bible? if not then why is it portraid like that in the bible, is'nt the bible meant to be God's word?
I believe in God. I do not consider myself a christian, or any other form of "religious branch". Hell is real and eternal because time moves differently in the other planes. Meaning, 5 seconds here can be 5 secs or 1,000 life times in heaven or hell. As, for leaving a christian church no but losing faith you can. I know that God exists and have faith in him. But, by no means do I have faith in a church nor any church's ideals of how to live my life nor who gets to go to hell or heaven. As for the bible, it's a good start but not the final word cause thats God's. We are suppose to learn from it not live by it. If something in your church or it's masses is causing you to lose faith then leave. Find another church or go to the woods and pray and worship God. Take sometime to find yourself.
Another thing for those that are talking about planes hell is it's on plane and it has it's own levels just like heaven and here. Hell, is not a place to just walk around and meet and greet like around heaven or the hall of records. If any deamons see you they will come after you and try to trick you by any means. Oh, l learned the hard way about that one. They really hate it when you call out for God or any angels. So, those that think it's a joke go ahead try it I dare you. But, if and when you come back you will never be the same.
Quote from: malethatsees on December 02, 2009, 11:13:56
I believe in God. I do not consider myself a christian, or any other form of "religious branch". Hell is real and eternal because time moves differently in the other planes. Meaning, 5 seconds here can be 5 secs or 1,000 life times in heaven or hell. As, for leaving a christian church no but losing faith you can. I know that God exists and have faith in him. But, by no means do I have faith in a church nor any church's ideals of how to live my life nor who gets to go to hell or heaven. As for the bible, it's a good start but not the final word cause thats God's. We are suppose to learn from it not live by it. If something in your church or it's masses is causing you to lose faith then leave. Find another church or go to the woods and pray and worship God. Take sometime to find yourself.
Another thing for those that are talking about planes hell is it's on plane and it has it's own levels just like heaven and here. Hell, is not a place to just walk around and meet and greet like around heaven or the hall of records. If any deamons see you they will come after you and try to trick you by any means. Oh, l learned the hard way about that one. They really hate it when you call out for God or any angels. So, those that think it's a joke go ahead try it I dare you. But, if and when you come back you will never be the same.
I can't speak as if I 'knew' everything, especially about the afterlife, since all we can report is what we see when we go to different realms, but I personally have been given a tour of the hellplanes, and wasn't attacked there. I was with a guide/guardian, but I suspect that the reason I wasn't attacked is that I didn't go there because I died and thought I needed to go there, giving credence to the idea that hell, like any other plane, is an 'energetic/environmental' response that is reacting to the needs of the perceiver. If you die believing you're going to hell, and you'll stay there until you feel you're done, and the demons that attack you are the demons of your own creation.
I do agree that time is different in the astral, but eternal and 'very long' don't mean the same thing.
Hi i could nt resist adding some input here. so here goes my illegible incoherent muttering lmao.
I think what cft is trying to say about time and space is not that there irrelevant but that things manifest quicker in the afterlife and other planes because we become closer to the source which is energy. so the closer to energy we become the easier and quicker we can use it for our own manifestation. am i right cft?
Firstly my belief is unorthodox and follows no set patterning of any religious denomination.
I belive when we die we jude our self and are put in a place that is relvant to our way of thinking and as we become more learned the higher we start to progress. the highest point not been heaven or god but the realisation that god has never been away from us.
i do not belive in hell. i do belive that due to media and religous influences that we can manifest hell if we belive in it so much. when we die i think we then condemn our selfs there until we break that way of thinking.
I think the christians and so on describe hell and label it. is a a misunderstanding. as it is a paradox. you know like how can god percieve god if god is all it is. how can love understand love if it is all it has ever known. how can good describe good if it has never done wrong. how can heaven relaise its profoundness is it has never been lost in the carnage of man or hell. so i think hell is just a paradox so that we appriciate heaven.
you know so these peopoe like adolf hitler who were evil through and through end up in a place to suit there thought patterns and then as they progress they end up in our so called heaven or in other terms the higher plane.
i guess thats a disturbing thought thinking of war crimnals murders a rapists all been in the place that we think of as pure.
and as for time and space physically kurty kurt you said you wanna understand it. whats there to understand its a man made idea and concept. they call space any thing outside our little planet and they call time any duration they can measure.
but thats all it is man made. the world would still spin with out our stupid labels of time lol and the earth would still be here so i guess our so called space would be here. yet again space is a label that creates a boundarie between two labvels which is another man made a loopy concept to make things seem more complicated as if we are seperated from outside when really this world, this solar system and the next and asia and africa and me and you were all just 1 big thing were not little parts of it we are it. we are all god and god is us.
haha am tired and cant be bothered to mutter any more. i ll rant a bit when i wake up in the morning lol
take care everyone
QuoteI think what cft is trying to say about time and space is not that there irrelevant but that things manifest quicker in the afterlife and other planes because we become closer to the source which is energy.
Kind of- I'm not sure if 'quicker' is the right word, because as you said in the other part of the post, time is relative to how we perceive- so I would say that it is perceived differently than with our physical senses. Faster, slower, all these things are relative, so I'll just say "different".
Quoteso the closer to energy we become the easier and quicker we can use it for our own manifestation. am i right cft?
Maybe. Or maybe, the closer this energy resonates with ourselves the more immediate the result is- who knows!! :-o :-D
Hi, your not going to hell because we cant be confidently sure that such a place exists. If your having doubts about the Christian God then thats fine and natural on your spiritual journey you will often go through trials when thinking about existence and the nature of reality. IMO the observable universe as we know it is pure materialistic. Life's too short to cling to religious dogma. I used to be like you until recent years i opened my mind to other religions critical thinking and new ideas. Not to mention seeing how hypocrite conservatives act is a HUGE Turn off!(But thats for another topic :P)
If you want to know something interesting take it however you want it but they are other Books apart from the bible written by supposed prophets that the early church was afraid to consider canon because of the contradictions. Im not sure which specific book but you can look up the Gnostic gospels God lets in Paul on a little secret that people who go to hell arent there for an eternity. They do get out once they find redemption in themselves and forgivness in their God. Wouldnt surprise me the early church left this out just so they can have control over so many peoples minds at the time.
Whether its true canon or not who knows i havent done much research but they is a reason many gospels and hidden books are still out their and they refuse to talk about them in church because it ruins they idea of tradition from what they been taught since childhood.
Edit: Btw in some eastern religions mainly buddhism i read off of they have their own version of hell. You wont last for eternity. Instead the karma you cause in this life pays you back in the next life. Being punished BY your sins instead of for your sins. Which kind of supports what i said compared with the Gnostic Gospel. Im not sure if you create your own hell but bad people need to suffer and face the crimes for their sin at some point right? That's like saying Hitler is gonna get off clean but its still not okay what he did. Its still up to him if he wants to be forgiven and he learned a lesson from it. But simply losing faith doesnt fit into that category so you shouldnt worry about it.
Quote from: Killa Rican on December 03, 2009, 13:18:10
If you want to know something interesting take it however you want it but they are other Books apart from the bible written by supposed prophets that the early church was afraid to consider canon because of the contradictions.
Some of them were written by the same scribes (the gospels were not written by the apostles themselves, since neither could read or much less write.) But many of the gnostic gospels were written by the same scribes that wrote the other four, the letters and other canonical texts. The Gospel of Thomas, for example, is about 30 to 50 years younger than the Gospel of John, which is canon. In fact, some scholars believe that John was written precisely to refute what the Gospel of Thomas said.
QuoteIm not sure which specific book but you can look up the Gnostic gospels God lets in Paul on a little secret that people who go to hell arent there for an eternity.
I have to look this up (so I might come back to change the source) but I believe it was the Gospel of Peter where Jesus told them he had gone to hell and back, after resurrection. This may be the one you're talking about.
QuoteThey do get out once they find redemption in themselves and forgivness in their God. Wouldnt surprise me the early church left this out just so they can have control over so many peoples minds at the time.
Absolutely. The bishop that was in charge of this (Irenaus) wrote about how there could only be four gospels because there were only four elements, and of course picked the ones he agreed with the most. There's a part in his writings where he says something along the lines of "Let's not let the facts get in the way of the Truth", or something like that. I might have to rewrite this also, as it's in what my own recollection, and chances are that these were not the exact words.
QuoteWhether its true canon or not who knows i havent done much research but they is a reason many gospels and hidden books are still out their and they refuse to talk about them in church because it ruins they idea of tradition from what they been taught since childhood.
I can't fault them for that, the conditions that lead to this were pretty heinous in the early christian times- the diversity of beliefs in the early churches caused so many divisions that it made them easy targets for the greeks and romans, who were killing them left and right. So they needed a strong political position to survive and 'win'- remember that those were pretty scary times, and you had to be the scariest to avoid being lion food. So let's give them the benefit of admitting we don't know what it was like to be them.
QuoteEdit: Btw in some eastern religions mainly buddhism i read off of they have their own version of hell.
Yes, Tibetan Buddhism.
QuoteYou wont last for eternity. Instead the karma you cause in this life pays you back in the next life. Being punished BY your sins instead of for your sins.
It's called the Bardo state, and you 'burn off' your karma, but wait, that's not all- If you realize you've created the whole shebang, you don't have to reincarnate, and can evolve to some other way of being (like some sort of astral being, angel, god, etc.) If you don't realize you've created the whole thing, at some point you have to go back and be born again, etc. So it's a good idea to always remember you create your reality, because when you're in the afterlife, being plagued by your beliefs, it's easy to forget.
QuoteWhich kind of supports what i said compared with the Gnostic Gospel. Im not sure if you create your own hell but bad people need to suffer and face the crimes for their sin at some point right?
First, there is no 'Gnostic Gospel', there were many gnostic gospels, and all of them were different. Their main core beliefs were more or less the same, but the mythology was very diverse. But the ideas behind reincarnation and hell are pretty similar, considering that the conclusions are almost logical.
QuoteThat's like saying Hitler is gonna get off clean but its still not okay what he did.
Not really. If you realize that we are all God in Manifestation, you have to realize that the spirit that chose to incarnate as Hitler will suffer as long as anyone who has ever suffered from what happened back then due to the nature of God (all good)- so it's not that punishment is necessary, it's that the pain of the soul who chose such an experience will surpass any possible pain anyone else can inflict. You see?
QuoteIts still up to him if he wants to be forgiven and he learned a lesson from it. But simply losing faith doesnt fit into that category so you shouldnt worry about it.
I agree. Losing faith is one more experience in the human condition, and the pain it causes is pretty strong in itself, considering the ideas about God and Love. That's why it's called "The Dark Night of the Soul".
Hey Cft sorry i have to be quick as its late and my girlfriend is moaning at me for ben on the computer haha
I dont understand what you mean about the hitler thing and how the pain surpass all pain anyone could inflict.
What is the dark night of the soul?
I understand what your saying about time though. How to understand about the man made concept of time not been real and yet label things as long or short, fast or slow. it is kind of ironic nonsense as there is no fast or slow or long or short. all there is. is this moment and not the awareness of how fast or slow it is going but just the understanding that with every moment we need to strive to be our best and leech every valuable aspect of knowledge that we can from that moment before the moment disappears and leaves you marooned in a dark corner.
ok this is one of my stupid questions cft but it got me thinking read below lmao
Ok so time doesnt exsist because its a man made concept to measure duration.
so if time doesnt exsist that means we have no means to measure duration that we can understand while here on earth so ....
if this is the case how can we say it manifests quicker or slower?
so i know what you mean when you labeled it as diffrent.
its like banning all tape measures from the house and then asking how tall i am hahaha
take care everyone
From all the NDE's and OBE's I've read about among all sorts of other material - you create the reality that you will go to. If you worship demons and things like that, then that is the sort of world you will go to in the afterlife. If you are a Christian you'll go to Christ. But there is a life review and everything you do is recorded.
I found an interesting passage from the Kolbrin Bible that it called "The Voice of God" about 3 dudes who all has the same vision adn wrote it down and it was all the same. It was God talking to us
"Those who worship gods of their imagination, gods in strange likenesses, which have been brought into being by man's creative conceptions, will go to these gods who have an existence in a dim shadow realm. Those who worship lower spirits will go to them and those who worship the demons of darkness will join them, for what a man desires he deserves. There is a link between that which men desire and what becomes established in existence. Provision is made for man to receive the fruits of his own creations".
Quote from: Fourthdimension on December 03, 2009, 19:53:53
Hey Cft sorry i have to be quick as its late and my girlfriend is moaning at me for ben on the computer haha
I dont understand what you mean about the hitler thing and how the pain surpass all pain anyone could inflict.
I was afraid you'd ask- there's no short answer, so I'll put it differently.
Suppose you are eternally good, but want to experience. Now, you understand, that to experience, you have to exist. Now it's fine to be eternal bliss and all that, but to exist, there has to be 'something' that exists. And for there to be 'something' there has to be 'nothing' too. Because eternal something is not really something, as in 'something that is.' For existence there has to be stuff like location. And for 'location' there has to be stuff like time and space, and dimensions (because 'being', or 'existing' has to be 'somewhere', and that's all about time and space, etc.
With me so far?
Ok.
So now you want to exist. Now, you can exist as a pure energy, that exists in a vaccum (or space, or whatever you can think of). But pure energy is really not doing anything. It probably is very boring being just undifferentiated energy, that encompasses everything. Really, that's almost like being nothing.
But now you have a point of view. This being somewhere (let's say a point in time) allows for one part of you to 'be' and another part to 'not be'. That's almost like 'observation'. And so on and so forth- and then we come to the concept of 'experience'. Experience is not just about being, (although you can 'be' anything, you have to divide yourself and observe parts of yourself to isolate things like 'photons', or 'colors' or anything- 'cause it's just energy.
Ok, now it gets more complicated.
Let's say, that as God, you want to experience emotions- such as Joy, Happiness, and Bliss. Now, this isn't the same Bliss that we think of when we think of God, this is the bliss or happiness you feel when something good happens to you. (Now I've jumped to humans, I didn't want to make it more long and boring that it needed to be.) Anyway, as God, you want to feel human emotion- but there's a problem, that for there to be the perspective of 'good' or 'happy', there has to be 'perspective'.
What is perspective? The ability to come over here, look at something, and say 'this is good'. The thing is, that if everything is judged 'good', there is no 'good', there is just 'is'.
So then we must admit that to experience 'good' we have to have the concept of 'suffering (or bad, or what you don't like)' to compare it with.
And then, we have all the duality (which is not really duality, it's just experienced as such) we talk about in other forums.
Now let's back up to the concept of God.
If we have the concept of God as eternally Good, omnipotent, omniscient and eternal (and I do, so I'm going to work with my concept of God, yours may be different), then you know that this means that when God chooses to incarnate as you, (or experiences what is like to be 'Fourthdimension') that the experience of God is in the core of your being, and your experience of God may be not in your conscious awareness- but there is a connection to the 'God' part of you, your soul, that is the essence of the Concept of God, all Good.
So this part of you, is trying to guide you to your highest good, and has chosen to give you willpower to either ignore this part of you or follow it, or (like many of us) spend your life trying to find out what the plan is for you, in other words, to do God's will, not because of any fear of punishment (because as God's creation or extension, punishment is not even in the picture.
But let's say that you choose to follow appearances (the world seems limited, so you feel you need to steal, the world seems evil, so you feel the need to kill, etc.) now part of you, the part with direct access to your divinity, knows this is error thinking, but the temporal part of you goes 'awry'.
Now, let's go back to the 'divine part' of anyone who commits transgressions- like Hitler, for example.
Now this guy was at least partly responsible (there were others equally evil, like Himmler and Mengele, for example). These guys caused immense suffering- not only because of the people they killed, but the people that felt the need to follow their orders, the people who lost family, the people that were forever changed, (and by forever I mean how countries functioned, political effects, etc.) The suffering caused wasn't only (and I don't mean 'only' lightly, I mean that it was more encompassing that we can even imagine) didn't stop with the people killed- every bit of pain would be felt by the soul of this person who is connected to what can be considered immense love and goodness.
Do you, or can you see that? If you are truly a good person who wants to make the world better, but see your hand suddenly lift up a knife and kill someone, wouldn't you be horrified? But, and here's the kicker, if you are as good as God must be, then instead of cutting off your hand you absorb the pain this act caused, because after all, the victim of the 'hand' is also part of you? (Remember, as God you don't 'end', it's just an illusion). So this would be the reason why Hitler will suffer every instance of pain that he caused to others, because all the others are part of him. And it's not only the pain of what he did, but the pain of all that happened because of what he did.
Now, I can get into more of this, but I too have to get off the computer.
QuoteWhat is the dark night of the soul?
Google it, you can find out, and it's a very long answer.
QuoteI understand what your saying about time though. How to understand about the man made concept of time not been real and yet label things as long or short, fast or slow. it is kind of ironic nonsense as there is no fast or slow or long or short. all there is. is this moment and not the awareness of how fast or slow it is going but just the understanding that with every moment we need to strive to be our best and leech every valuable aspect of knowledge that we can from that moment before the moment disappears and leaves you marooned in a dark corner.
Ok, I see the problem of time differently.
Time is not a 'thing', but it is a measurement (it's all it is) Of what? Of changes in time and space. What we call time is just what happens with the universe expanding and changing. It's what we call 'aging' and 'entropy'. So we measure it using celestial movement as markers. And construct timepieces. So it's not a manmade concept, it's a measurement of changes that we label. So slow and fast have to do with how we compare it with something else.
Now, in the astral, the concept of time is different because change is immediate (or not obvious) so to detect it we have to compare change to something- and here's where my theory comes in (I made this up, so take it with a grain of salt)- I think the immediacy of manifestation in the astral has to do with how you compare the environment with your own energy. If you're 'in synch' with the manifestation (at the harmonic of the frequency) you can experience time, because you are perceiving the difference from your own vibe to what's happening around you.
So you perceive it as slow or fast in relation to your own perception. Now I'm tired so I don't know if I'm making any sense.
Good night, all.
Quoteits like banning all tape measures from the house and then asking how tall i am hahaha
take care everyone
I like that.
Quote from: lonecrow66 on December 03, 2009, 21:34:13
From all the NDE's and OBE's I've read about among all sorts of other material - you create the reality that you will go to. If you worship demons and things like that, then that is the sort of world you will go to in the afterlife. If you are a Christian you'll go to Christ.
I do think you eventually come to that conclusion.
Quoteeverything you do is recorded.
This seems 'too' technical, don't you think? I would think that by 'existing' you are already etching your 'recording' in the matrix. It's not that someone's keeping tabs, is that's by existing, you simply are part of the 'vibe' of 'reality'.
Ok, now I'm really going to sleep. This is not how I wanted to express this.
Quote from: CFTraveler on December 03, 2009, 22:13:02
Ok, I see the problem of time differently.
Time is not a 'thing', but it is a measurement (it's all it is) Of what? Of changes in time and space. What we call time is just what happens with the universe expanding and changing. It's what we call 'aging' and 'entropy'. So we measure it using celestial movement as markers. And construct timepieces. So it's not a manmade concept, it's a measurement of changes that we label. So slow and fast have to do with how we compare it with something else.
Now, in the astral, the concept of time is different because change is immediate (or not obvious) so to detect it we have to compare change to something- and here's where my theory comes in (I made this up, so take it with a grain of salt)- I think the immediacy of manifestation in the astral has to do with how you compare the environment with your own energy. If you're 'in synch' with the manifestation (at the harmonic of the frequency) you can experience time, because you are perceiving the difference from your own vibe to what's happening around you.
So you perceive it as slow or fast in relation to your own perception. Now I'm tired so I don't know if I'm making any sense.
Good night, all.
:-)
Time is certanilty not easy to understand I can assure you. You seem to be on the right track but let me see if I can help,
Time is how long it takes to go from point A to point B (in space). Space can be any point in a universe. You need to picture the universe from a 3D perspective, here's a picture (http://onfinite.com/libraries/1543222/ece.jpg)I have been working on but It's not yet complete, so try not to laugh.
Actually it's not bad- and kind of looks like something I came up with when I was trying to explain 'my' model of the universe to my son, who at the time was eleven. Only mine had tentacles coming from it.
Well, at least we both seem to be on the right track. I added a few other things to the picture (http://onfinite.com/libraries/1543317/676.jpg)but I still don't know where the tentacles go? :-)
Quote from: CFTraveler on December 03, 2009, 22:17:05
I do think you eventually come to that conclusion.
This seems 'too' technical, don't you think? I would think that by 'existing' you are already etching your 'recording' in the matrix. It's not that someone's keeping tabs, is that's by existing, you simply are part of the 'vibe' of 'reality'.
Ok, now I'm really going to sleep. This is not how I wanted to express this.
No but almost everyone who's died and come back has maintained your whole life flashes in front of your eyes and I mean EVERYTHING all the good and the bad. This is commonly known in all religions. It is your brain firing off all of its memory and being.
One really good book to read Journey of Souls and Destiny of Souls.. Some of it is really far far out! But interesting to say the least.
Quote from: CFTraveler on December 04, 2009, 09:57:41
Actually it's not bad- and kind of looks like something I came up with when I was trying to explain 'my' model of the universe to my son, who at the time was eleven. Only mine had tentacles coming from it.
heheh sounds like something I would have done if I had a son.
I always said I'd sing Enter Sandman to my son.. it would freak him out.. "hush little baby.. don't say a word and forget that noise you heard. Its just the beast under your bed.. " hehe
My son actually learned to play it on the guitar. Hee hee. At eleven.
i ve been meaning to reply cft but had lots on my hands at the minute. when i get home from work tonight i ll write a reply
Quotefrom: CFTraveler on December 04, 2009, 04:13:02
Suppose you are eternally good, but want to experience. Now, you understand, that to experience, you have to exist. Now it's fine to be eternal bliss and all that, but to exist, there has to be 'something' that exists. And for there to be 'something' there has to be 'nothing' too. Because eternal something is not really something, as in 'something that is.' For existence there has to be stuff like location. And for 'location' there has to be stuff like time and space, and dimensions (because 'being', or 'existing' has to be 'somewhere', and that's all about time and space, etc.
With me so far?
OK since we are going in depth i may aswell get all inquisitive lol
i could write more but a pretty tired now its 4 am here lol and av been writing this since 2am haha
i ve been listening to the roar of gilmour and waters guitar and the all so famous pink floyd.
i think floyd is pretty philosphical in there music
haha cft i came up with another saying today. you see my boss has the computer table nailed to the wall cause he is an idiot and he asked me to get the printer cable through the gap but it did nt fit. so i spent an hour sliding this cable through holes mabe for pipes like a little maze until eventually i got it out. so i huffed and puffed up the stairs full of dust from the table and my boss saids you got it and i was like yeah getting that out was like swallowing a pin then trying to pick it up with my tongue wen its in my stomach and he was like wtf and i said it does nt matter am going home night haha
night xxx
I understand what you mean by if your eternally good and want to experience you first have to exist BUT (lol)
To say you need to exist is saying that they do not exist. so how can some one be eternally good and yet non existant. If we are consious beings how can we be just pure energy without existing. ok to comlpicate things say we are non existing at the stage your talking about and yet we are eternally good. how can one by good? is it like saying oxegyen is eternally good because it cannot harm us as it is not a manifestation?
ok i understand the first section but i ll ask questions even though i do understand just so we can get more in depth cause i like this lol.
so to exist there has to be something to exist in - are you saying we create the something or something else has already created it.?
i understand that everything has its paradox and so there does have to be nothing for something to exist in but how would you define nothing? and what are you describing using the term something?
i understand there has to be time and space to exist and location. but does that location have to be on the physical?
do we create time and space as relvant to us or do we blend into another person or groups manifestation of time and space?
i think i told you about that time i felt that bliss. where i imagined by self splitting into a million particles scattering as far and wide and just feel the state of being not being any where but just been satisfied with the now.
briefly i do understand that first paragraph you wrote.
Quotefrom: CFTraveler on December 04, 2009, 04:13:02
So now you want to exist. Now, you can exist as a pure energy, that exists in a vaccum (or space, or whatever you can think of). But pure energy is really not doing anything. It probably is very boring being just undifferentiated energy, that encompasses everything. Really, that's almost like being nothing.
But now you have a point of view. This being somewhere (let's say a point in time) allows for one part of you to 'be' and another part to 'not be'. That's almost like 'observation'. And so on and so forth- and then we come to the concept of 'experience'. Experience is not just about being, (although you can 'be' anything, you have to divide yourself and observe parts of yourself to isolate things like 'photons', or 'colors' or anything- 'cause it's just energy.
oh i forgot to ask if am not existing how do i know i want to exist? lmao
by saying just been an encompassing energy is been like nothing is like saying wat u were before that in the first stage is less than nothing lol
and at this stage we have not experienced and boring is an experience so we are already experiencing to call this boring
when you say one part is existing and what part not - well i ve always thought at every stage there is a part of me like here i am in the physical and some of me is in other planes as my sub conscious and that even tho my astral is in me wen i am awake daily it is still existing just in the same physical body as me.
like having two cars in one garage the car is step in i start up and it becomes active
anyways it then goes further than those planes all the way back to nothing. i belive i leave like a trail in which i can trace back or instantly become consious at with right experince. am i right?
do you mean that soon as i am concieved my awareness is in every atom or sub atomic particle until my birth and with the growth of my cells the more conscious i become in the body and aware. is that what you mean by the photon thing?
i briefly understand the second stage
Quote from: CFTraveler on December 03, 2009, 22:13:02
Ok, now it gets more complicated.
Let's say, that as God, you want to experience emotions- such as Joy, Happiness, and Bliss. Now, this isn't the same Bliss that we think of when we think of God, this is the bliss or happiness you feel when something good happens to you. (Now I've jumped to humans, I didn't want to make it more long and boring that it needed to be.) Anyway, as God, you want to feel human emotion- but there's a problem, that for there to be the perspective of 'good' or 'happy', there has to be 'perspective'.
What is perspective? The ability to come over here, look at something, and say 'this is good'. The thing is, that if everything is judged 'good', there is no 'good', there is just 'is'.
So then we must admit that to experience 'good' we have to have the concept of 'suffering (or bad, or what you don't like)' to compare it with.
And then, we have all the duality (which is not really duality, it's just experienced as such) we talk about in other forums.
i understand this and dont have any questions for once haha
Quotefrom: CFTraveler on December 04, 2009, 04:13:02
Now let's back up to the concept of God.
If we have the concept of God as eternally Good, omnipotent, omniscient and eternal (and I do, so I'm going to work with my concept of God, yours may be different), then you know that this means that when God chooses to incarnate as you, (or experiences what is like to be 'Fourthdimension') that the experience of God is in the core of your being, and your experience of God may be not in your conscious awareness- but there is a connection to the 'God' part of you, your soul, that is the essence of the Concept of God, all Good.
So this part of you, is trying to guide you to your highest good, and has chosen to give you willpower to either ignore this part of you or follow it, or (like many of us) spend your life trying to find out what the plan is for you, in other words, to do God's will, not because of any fear of punishment (because as God's creation or extension, punishment is not even in the picture.
i have the same view of god aswell
i belive that god is me but does not choose to incarnate as me instead the part of god that i am consious with i direct that part of god to experience and incarnate as art of me?
do you mean that god is my good. my soul and (i) my consious slef becomes astray from all earthly temptations and influences. whislst my soul trys to steer my a right towards all perfectness and yet i decide to taint my all so perfect self with the influence of society to make my self imperfect
but was imperfection not the idea when we first decided to experience we left perfection and all good to experience bad and evil and to experience . so to stray from omething so perfect leaves us at the dueality of imperfection.
oh this is irrelvant i guess but if all good and perfection is in god then does that make everything outside of god imperfect and bad because if there is good or perfection outside of god then god is nt all perefction and good as there is some good and perfect existing outside of god?
i understand this paragraph
Quotefrom: CFTraveler on December 04, 2009, 04:13:02
But let's say that you choose to follow appearances (the world seems limited, so you feel you need to steal, the world seems evil, so you feel the need to kill, etc.) now part of you, the part with direct access to your divinity, knows this is error thinking, but the temporal part of you goes 'awry'.
Now, let's go back to the 'divine part' of anyone who commits transgressions- like Hitler, for example.
Now this guy was at least partly responsible (there were others equally evil, like Himmler and Mengele, for example). These guys caused immense suffering- not only because of the people they killed, but the people that felt the need to follow their orders, the people who lost family, the people that were forever changed, (and by forever I mean how countries functioned, political effects, etc.) The suffering caused wasn't only (and I don't mean 'only' lightly, I mean that it was more encompassing that we can even imagine) didn't stop with the people killed- every bit of pain would be felt by the soul of this person who is connected to what can be considered immense love and goodness.
i understand this. you mean when a man kills its like tearing off the finger nail of god but for all them people to die under htlers command is like cutting gods juglar the whole bdoy feels it and trembles (i know god is not a manifestation lol)
and we are all part of that body and wether we aknowledge it or not we understand that everything done under the command of hitler is immoral and not part of the imperfection we want to experience
Quotefrom: CFTraveler on December 04, 2009, 04:13:02
Do you, or can you see that? If you are truly a good person who wants to make the world better, but see your hand suddenly lift up a knife and kill someone, wouldn't you be horrified? But, and here's the kicker, if you are as good as God must be, then instead of cutting off your hand you absorb the pain this act caused, because after all, the victim of the 'hand' is also part of you? (Remember, as God you don't 'end', it's just an illusion). So this would be the reason why Hitler will suffer every instance of pain that he caused to others, because all the others are part of him. And it's not only the pain of what he did, but the pain of all that happened because of what he did.
i thoght we agreed to just experience not to make the world better or with time does out otiuves for existing change?
do you mean that on our journey back to god(even tho we have never been away from god) we need to accept what we have done wrong and make compensations and retributions to become our perfect soul once more
ok you paint a wall white then black then white again. is the lackness still not there under our newly painted sheen of white?
in this case if we are perefct (lets just go with the metaphor of white) then decide to be imperfect or evil to experience(lets just say black) now we paint over our black with white or we put right our evil sins and call our self perfect
how can one be perfect if he has already experinced and took part in evil ? does the experience not stay with him. for him to deny evil is for him to deny his acts of evil and ultimatly his compensation to his crimes
i did understand all of that but thought about asking questions lol
Quote from: Fourthdimension on December 05, 2009, 22:25:32
OK since we are going in depth i may aswell get all inquisitive lol
I'll try to answer but it's late for me too. And I'm sleepy.
Quotehaha cft i came up with another saying today. you see my boss has the computer table nailed to the wall cause he is an idiot and he asked me to get the printer cable through the gap but it did nt fit. so i spent an hour sliding this cable through holes mabe for pipes like a little maze until eventually i got it out. so i huffed and puffed up the stairs full of dust from the table and my boss saids you got it and i was like yeah getting that out was like swallowing a pin then trying to pick it up with my tongue wen its in my stomach and he was like wtf and i said it does nt matter am going home night haha
night xxx
I see he suffers from ID10T syndrome. :lol:
QuoteI understand what you mean by if your eternally good and want to experience you first have to exist BUT (lol)
To say you need to exist is saying that they do not exist.
Remember, existence in this example doesn't mean that it's 'not', it means it's not 'manifest'. Like eternity- We can think of it, but we can't understand it, because to understand it is to assign time and place to it (to grasp, comprehend, grab) is to make it limited. And eternal can have no limits. This is a paradox and I don't know if it can be understood- but the Hindus called it Atman, and the Kabbalists called it Ein Sof.
Quoteso how can some one be eternally good and yet non existant.
Because existence is limited- you have to exist in time and space, and this means 'not eternity'. I know, it's semantically nonsense, but one day your brain goes *pop* and you get it. Goodness is a quality that we understand, but I think that when it comes to God, it's something more, but I can't come up with any word that describes what 'God's goodness' must be, because to describe is to limit, and that's not easily put into words.
QuoteIf we are consious beings how can we be just pure energy without existing.
That's a great question. To be energy we have to exist, that means that energy is not all God is. It's what God Manifests as, but not all. If it were all, then God would have limits. And then it would be another view of God, not the one I'm trying to share with you.
Quoteok to comlpicate things say we are non existing at the stage your talking about and yet we are eternally good. how can one by good? is it like saying oxegyen is eternally good because it cannot harm us as it is not a manifestation?
Exactly, Good is the only way to describe something that has to be, but I don't have another word for infinite Good. Some people call it Joy but that's another limited word. Maybe eternal potential for Good is the right description, but it's still limited.
Quoteok i understand the first section but i ll ask questions even though i do understand just so we can get more in depth cause i like this lol.
That's OK. I like that you like it. :lol:
Quoteso to exist there has to be something to exist in - are you saying we create the something or something else has already created it.?
I would say that God manifests as the 'matrix' as much as the 'beings', all is created by God, but not separately- God creates by extension.
Quotei understand that everything has its paradox and so there does have to be nothing for something to exist in but how would you define nothing? and what are you describing using the term something?
By 'nothing' I mean something that has not manifested (if I say 'yet' here comes time to screw it all up, lol) and by 'something', I mean an object with limits, that has a beginning and an end. Matter perhaps, energy maybe. Or maybe not, since according to scientists energy can't be destroyed, so it always must have 'been', except not in 'time and space'. It's too complicated to try to 'make it scientific', but when I say 'something' I mean energy manifesting in ways that can be observed, or measured. You can look at 'something' (or measure something) and know it's there. That is limited manifestation (this chair has not always been, three hundred years ago, it didn't exist yet, so we know it's an object. Some day it'll not be there, so it's an object that is subject to time and space. Now pure energy, we don't really know if it's inifinite, although scientists used to think so.
So when I say 'nothing', I don't mean 'it can't exist', I mean it's 'more' than just 'existence'. It's just a different way to look at the world.
Quotei understand there has to be time and space to exist and location. but does that location have to be on the physical?
As far as I know, the physical is the definition of 'location'. That's why quantum physicists came up with 'nonlocal' and metaphisicians came up with (my favorite) supralocal. To indicate that something has no location, so for a certain amount of time, it doesn't exist. Mind-blowing stuff.
Quotedo we create time and space as relvant to us or do we blend into another person or groups manifestation of time and space?
Depends on who you ask. If you go with religious thinking, (and we seem to be doing this for now) you could say that God manifests in the physical as timespace, and as us, and God creates through us in a consensus reality kind of way, and the problem of time becomes something that depends on our interaction with it- with objects and each other all at the same time. A really smart guy described it as time being phase-dependent, not on location, but on the interactions between people- so it's not linear and it's not circular, it just depends on where we are with each other. Of course this guy is way smarter than me (by a loooong shot) and I barely understand what he means. Or rather, I make it mean what I think it means.
:-o :lol: I told you I was sleepy.
Quotei think i told you about that time i felt that bliss. where i imagined by self splitting into a million particles scattering as far and wide and just feel the state of being not being any where but just been satisfied with the now.
That Bliss may be a description of the 'Goodness or Love' that I was trying to describe with very little luck. Feeling it is better. :-D
Quoteoh i forgot to ask if am not existing how do i know i want to exist? lmao
Because you're here, aren't you? So it must mean that you wanted to. Seriously, there is no coherent answer. This is purely religious belief on my part. The way I see it, God doesn't make mistakes, so if we're here it's because at some 'primordial' point we wanted to. I realize some people don't think this way, it's what makes me different from many religious people.
Quoteby saying just been an encompassing energy is been like nothing is like saying wat u were before that in the first stage is less than nothing lol
But the thing is that 'less' is a comparative, and you compare 'unlimited' with 'limited', you can't say that 'limited (something)' is less than 'unlimited' (nothing). 'More' or 'less' can't be used, because they are limited concepts. I know, it sounds like the opposite of what your intuition would tell you, but 'nothing' doesn't mean 'less', it means something indescribable.
Quoteand at this stage we have not experienced and boring is an experience so we are already experiencing to call this boring
Well, that was just my opinion, but 'being' without 'doing' sounds boring to me. Just a description.
Quotewhen you say one part is existing and what part not - well i ve always thought at every stage there is a part of me like here i am in the physical and some of me is in other planes as my sub conscious and that even tho my astral is in me wen i am awake daily it is still existing just in the same physical body as me.
Exactly. Part of you is temporal, part eternal, but both are you.
Quotelike having two cars in one garage the car is step in i start up and it becomes active
If the gasoline or 'starter' are your conscious awareness. A synchronicity thing. Once they're 'in sync' they function as one.
Quoteanyways it then goes further than those planes all the way back to nothing. i belive i leave like a trail in which i can trace back or instantly become consious at with right experince. am i right?
Sounds right.
Quotedo you mean that soon as i am concieved my awareness is in every atom or sub atomic particle until my birth and with the growth of my cells the more conscious i become in the body and aware. is that what you mean by the photon thing?
I have to go back and look, I don't remember saying something like that.
Quotei belive that god is me but does not choose to incarnate as me instead the part of god that i am consious with i direct that part of god to experience and incarnate as art of me?
Well, I think God manifests as everything and everyone, but your temporal self isn't aware of this, but your eternal self is, and the trick is to consciously connect with that part of yourself.
Quotedo you mean that god is my good.
Always, and unconditionally.
Quotemy soul and (i) my consious slef becomes astray from all earthly temptations and influences. whislst my soul trys to steer my a right towards all perfectness and yet i decide to taint my all so perfect self with the influence of society to make my self imperfect
Not sure- it seems like it sometimes, but I don't think you can make yourself imperfect, you just think you can. In the eyes of God, you're perfect.
Quotebut was imperfection not the idea when we first decided to experience we left perfection and all good to experience bad and evil and to experience . so to stray from omething so perfect leaves us at the dueality of imperfection.
It makes us experience what we call duality, but since this is going to end so will imperfection, and what will remain will not be dependent on time and space, therefore our perfection still remains. If 'remains' even is a word I can use....
Quoteoh this is irrelvant i guess but if all good and perfection is in god then does that make everything outside of god imperfect and bad because if there is good or perfection outside of god then god is nt all perefction and good as there is some good and perfect existing outside of god?
No, because there is nothing outside of God. We think there is, because our basis of understanding of reality, but from the point of view of eternity, it's like reading a book- a really juicy book filled with sex and violence- while we're reading it it seems real, but once you put it down you realize it really wasn't.
Quotei understand this. you mean when a man kills its like tearing off the finger nail of god but for all them people to die under htlers command is like cutting gods juglar the whole bdoy feels it and trembles (i know god is not a manifestation lol)
and we are all part of that body and wether we aknowledge it or not we understand that everything done under the command of hitler is immoral and not part of the imperfection we want to experience
I'm not sure of the meaning of this, but now I'm really almost passing out.
Quotei thoght we agreed to just experience not to make the world better or with time does out otiuves for existing change?
I personally think we should make the world better, not because we can, but because we've screwed it up enough. But essentially, from the point of view of God, it doesn't matter. I know this is difficult to accept, and you don't have to.
Quotedo you mean that on our journey back to god(even tho we have never been away from god) we need to accept what we have done wrong and make compensations and retributions to become our perfect soul once more
I don't think we need to make retribution, because we are experiencing this 'wrongness' and becoming intimately aware of it. From both sides. Not because of 'retribution' the whole one hand with the other, but because if you cut your finger it's gonna hurt, and you will feel it.
Quoteok you paint a wall white then black then white again. is the lackness still not there under our newly painted sheen of white?
I'm not sure of what you mean by this. But if it means what I think it means, it's a long answer, and I might not know it anyway.
Quotein this case if we are perefct (lets just go with the metaphor of white) then decide to be imperfect or evil to experience(lets just say black) now we paint over our black with white or we put right our evil sins and call our self perfect
Let's use a slightly different metaphor- we are light (pure) but we dim our lights. Now darkness isn't 'something', it's just the 'lack of light'. Light is something, darkness is nothing. So we can only be 'light' or 'less light' or 'no light' but we can't be dark. So you either turn on the light or turn it down. But of course this is only a metaphor.
Quotehow can one be perfect if he has already experinced and took part in evil ?
Because in this case evil is the same as 'dark' it doesn't objectively exist- you can do evil but not be evil. And if you can do evil you can do good, (back to turning the light to 'full on', 'dark' doesn't stain you because it doesn't exist. If you have turned the lights down, you can always 'turn them back on'. Sorry about the metaphor, but I'm really passing out.
Quotedoes the experience not stay with him. for him to deny evil is for him to deny his acts of evil and ultimatly his compensation to his crimes
Of course. Experience is always going to be there, until it has been reconciled somehow. But 'compensation' has a different context. You can't say that something temporal is going to stay on an eternal being, it's just not 'fair' or in terms of energy, it's not balanced.
Quotei did understand all of that but thought about asking questions lol
I just hope tomorrow I remember what I wrote now. Hee hee.
lol i was gonna reply the day you wrote this but ended up getting to drunk to press the keys lol. i read the post and everything is made alot clearer by your answers
but i am gonna start a new topic from this discussion i was aving with my cousin see shes a psychologist and she said that
if a person walked the streets with a cross on there back and sadi they were jesusnot only would he be sectioned but that he would be giving medication to change his belives
i said to her so are you saying tablets can change belives ect ect and then it all came down to the below question
is belive in a social context or biological or is it psychological? and if it is biological then does that mean the chemicals within us predetermin our belives?
a stupid question for me to ask on a site full of people who have strong belives as do i but anyways
thought you would be interested cft so check out the thread
Quote from: Fourthdimension on December 08, 2009, 11:05:40
thought you would be interested cft so check out the thread
I can't find it. Can you link it over here?
yh sorry cft i eneded up getting drunk and so never had a chance to make the thread here it is anyways
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_world_religions/is_believe_biological_pyscologhical_is_it_socially_influenced-t30515.0.html
take care
i was drunk wen i wrote it so sorry if it does nt make sense
x
I believe in a supreme being or GOD. I also believe that man has created this image of god that people fear. The GOD that I believe in is forgiving and any punishment I believe is like karma and and carried into the next life/lives until it is repaid. Listen to yourself and you will know the answer. Peace.