Well stated.
I don't believe that anyone ever attained lasting, true happiness by turning towards serving himself, which is the hallmark of the left-handed path. And the idea of utilizing darkness to do good works is fairly laughable. If you wallow in darkness it's going to stick to you like glue.
I appreciate your comment about "calling down force from the sphere above" as opposed to tapping the Kundalini force. It's generally known within occult circles that a soul who walks the left-handed path eventually severs the connection altogether with the sphere above via selfish, harmful activities. This is the state of those vampire types who subsist entirely upon light/energy which they steal from others, having divorced themselves from the True Source.
"Let us do evil, that good might appear" is a classic mantra of these darkened souls.
maybe severing from "the source" is what the source had in mind for its reflections?
i follow the left-hand path because i felt like something was missing when i did otherwise. I am a very happy person because of this. it's not about being petty- it's about knowing what you want and realizing that the key to happiness is following your true desires.
A while back, when I was playing around with Christianity and starting to explore religious/spiritual ideas, I for whatever reason started reading up on these kinds of things out of curiousity. I never had the intention to harm anybody or go into anything drastic like vampirism but this 'darker side' did have some attractive sounding aspects, ie astral projection, which I hadn't been exposed to before and the idea excited me based on what these occult sites said about it. Eventually I found this site which shed a lot more scientific light on the subject (though sort of taking the fun out of it too [:P]). If I hadn't found this site, I might still be going by those other pages, though (but maybe I would've AP'ed by now too). For me those things were a sort of stepping stone towards information like what Robert Bruce and, further, these forums provide. Can't explain the guys that actually go out trying to harm people though. They must have some kind of psychological problems going on along the way.
quote:
Originally posted by Moonburn33
maybe severing from "the source" is what the source had in mind for its reflections?
i follow the left-hand path because i felt like something was missing when i did otherwise. I am a very happy person because of this. it's not about being petty- it's about knowing what you want and realizing that the key to happiness is following your true desires.
Hi Moonburn,
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same "left handed path". For instance, would you purposly do harm to others for personal gain? Would you do spells against people to try to kill them because they offended you or ticked you off? Would you manipulate and destroy others lives in order to gain for youself financial or sexual domination? Would you consort with demons or other spiritual black holes in order to have a chance at "changing your luck"? This type of thing is what I'm referring to when I talk about ultimate selfishness.
I don't think most people would consider "following your heart" to be the same as the "left handed path".
Regarding, "maybe severing from "the source" is what the source had in mind for its reflections?"---from an occult standpoint, the source IS YOU, as in your higher self, which is equal to and one with the higher self of every other soul. Choosing to be severed from the Source is to identify completely with a wholly temporal and artificial lower creation which we experience when we come down here to incarnate in a body.
Your soul is just a small portion of what YOU really are. When a soul does this divorce thing, the soul is cutting himself off from the source of life (his higher self) and is eventually lost. Yes, souls can be lost. They become so dark that the only recourse is to "recycle" the energy, kind of like erasing a tape. There is a spiritual hierarchy who is in charge of such things.
I'd say "know thy shades, but do not let them swallow you".
We all have to know about our dark sides, what Jung called "The Shadow", and to explore the unknown may have a value.
But to devote oneself entirely to the Qlipphotic Tree to me sounds as if one would easily get lost spritually, without the guiding light of the higher self.
Also what many left-hand path workers do is calling demons beneficial and misunderstood. That to me is sugar-coating potential dangers.
These are great powers that want to turn all spirtual balance over.
They may appear as beneficial so as to be able to get a connection on the etheric plane.
Also there are many who when venturing into magic think it is much more cool to try and call up Lovecraftian entities than "ordinary planetary spirits". Well, let's see how cool it is to later be possessed by a demon and be locked up in an institution as a rambling psychotic.
I'd like to quote the great occultist W.E. Butler, the founder of S.O.L.:
"Never, ever overestimate your occult powers!"
Butler in one of his books also likened the channeling of dark forces as channeling sewer water, it is impossible not to be tainted by that dark energy.
quote:
Originally posted by Mathias Jonsson
"Never, ever overestimate your occult powers!"
Butler in one of his books also likened the channeling of dark forces as channeling sewer water, it is impossible not to be tainted by that dark energy.
Very much agree with this statement, we have picked up on those that do this as part of their scheme to be special and there is a growing sense of corruption about them and their activities.
Their choice I guess.
i understand where you are coming from, boydster- however:
I do not believe any of the acts that you listed to be symptomatic of a spiritually divorced personality in and of themselves. At the risk of getting slightly off topic, I will say that I believe moralistic DETAILS to be entirely subjective- in that one person may be serving their Greater Personality by carrying out one or more of the acts you listed.
It's a complicated issue and do not think that your explanation was lost on me- I completely comprehend and agree with the spirit of your post.
Ahhhhh!
But it's not all about just you. It's about why you chose to incarnate in the first place. If the reason is to only enrich yourself, then you missed the point entirely. Enriching yourself is the payback for other work.
Serving your greater good or severing your greater good?
"But it's not all about just you. It's about why you chose to incarnate in the first place. If the reason is to only enrich yourself, then you missed the point entirely. Enriching yourself is the payback for other work."
---------------------------------------------
rastus- could you give your rationale for this.
I'd like to hear Rastus' answer, but to me it sounds like he's saying that the greatest reward comes to those who serve others (aka: serve their own higher self by serving/helping the lower self [souls] of others--under the premise that we are all one vast, extended lifestream).
The true occult adepts down through the ages have always advised to forget yourself and do your duty to the Maker/Source via service to His souls evolving here in these planes of consciousness.
Rastus?
quote:
Originally posted by Moonburn33
i follow the left-hand path because i felt like something was missing when i did otherwise. I am a very happy person because of this. it's not about being petty- it's about knowing what you want and realizing that the key to happiness is following your true desires.
Here is another spin on this. I believe that what we call desires come from a variety of sources. Some of these are due to promises or vows we made before taking incarnation, in the attempt to make evolutionary progress. Some are the desiring of our higher self, filtering down the stairway of consiousness into our dreams or our waking desires and emotions. Other desires (many....) are the result of the animal nature of these bodies that we inhabit. Still other desires are the result of influences from without--both good and bad, such as due to tramp discarnates who still harbor cravings due to obsessions or addictions during life. Or you could be inspired by your spirit guide, etc.
My point is that with all these influences happening, it takes a lot of discrimination to get through these lives we live without making a bunch of karma each time we touch down; probably more discrimination than 99% of us have. That's why it takes study, reflection and attuning to your higher self in order to find a rough set of rules to help us live by until we have the working, conscious discrimination of an adept.
We've all done this to some degree or another. And my only comment further is that everything I've ever encountered from my personal search leads me to believe that what people call the "left handed path" if followed to it's conclusion, leads to the failure of the mission of that soul, ultimate unhappiness and even the "erasing" of that unique identity.
"Whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it".
This is a very deep occult law.
The eternal question is usually "why am I here?"
You are not here to enrich yourself. That's a side affect, a by product of the work your trying to do. If you were here for just yourself (the left hand path), then in fact you give nothing back. You are a leech, a taker in a complex world of interwoven energies and entities. You care nothing for these entities, having admitted you would do whatever you wanted to enrich yourself. Okay, your greater personality is directing all this. But how do you truly know that's who your serving and your not deluding your current incarnation? You say your higher self, but does your higher self want self-enrichment at the expense of other entities?
Souls can be lost, its quite tragic but it can happen. You felt something was missing until you went down the left hand path? It sounds like your Ego is more in control than your higher self? Was it the feeling of power you liked? What about the left hand path make syou feel differently than being a lightworker? Now your happy? Physcially happy you mean? Satisfied in the flesh (that includes the Ego, since it's an aspect of flesh). Perhaps your Ego is satisfied because your connection to your higherself is weaker.
Now your standard lightworker would shower you with love and light. But they have to contend with the dark forces that ahve surrounded you. In the current times the light is very bright and the darker forces are scrambling for their 'defenders' I would imagine they would invest a lot of effort to keep what they have or get more dark workers. Why? After the changes, the old ways won't apply? New rules?
Now your nonstandard lightworker may have other ideas, beware the Grays...
ok, let me explain my position better:
I do not believe in divinity or a Higher self. I do not believe that there is such a thing as UNselfishness. I do not believe in a higher power, however- I do believe in Powers. I also do not believe in concepts like ego and lower selves. In my conceptual world, there is only one complete entity with conflicting ideas. I DO believe in a Greater self, however- being the hidden/latent parts of ourselves. In my opinion, they are without color- and only represent the Shadow of Jungian philosophy. As a note, I use Greater only for classification purposes (e.g. The Greater New England area).
Doing what you want/being selfish is not inherently about being petty or destructive.
If you want to serve others because it strikes a chord in your heart, then do so- you're still doing what you want. It's about being honest with yourself with regards to personal wishes and, in some cases, finding out what you want MORE. (I do believe in Ethics, in that regard)
I hold very dear the Thelemic Injunction: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will."
ok so how do i tie this into the original intent of the post. i think that the previous post of mine was a footnote, of sorts. (i don't want to turn this thread into a pile of histrionic evangelism)
hmmm....you see, the left hand path is not about hurting other people for no reason. It's not about going around and casting black magick on everybody...it's not always about "worshipping the self" or only think of oneself, of being only completely selfish.
You see, I would regard mages trying to exploit demons of the goetia with nine foot circles, spiritual abuse, "protective pentagrams" etc, in order to get some sort of gain whether it be financial, romantic, whatever, to be of the right hand path.
I would define the left hand path as...satisfying the self, nourishing the self, seeking and finding knowledge, free thought, free choice, free will, think for oneself.
You are mistaken if you think the occult adepts have always been sourceophiles, because to be quite frank, these notion of jesus, buddha, krishna, all being mystic prophets of the "I AM" maker source, are really quite young, and you're famous occultist or occult adepts came before these theories ever existed. And, just for the record, most if not all of them were of the left hand path.
What exactly is the demonic goetia?
It is a list of pagan gods from various ancient civilisations around the world, these gods often predate christianity and judaism by thousands of years, and have always been positive beings until "solomon" decided they were they were all "demons", which happens to be the classic latin form of the modern latin word "daemon", which is the derivative of the greek word "daimon", which refers to just a base level spirit lower then a god but stronger then a person. The Hebrews decided they were going to try and make their polytheistic religion of blood sacrifice into a monotheistic one, and in doing so had to trample out all other religions, and so they systematically sacked and burnt temples, shrines and libraries to other gods. They invaded and took over palestine, and decided they were going to make war, mass murder and rape with the philestines and other ancient civilisations which worshipped the first real gods of humanity. They called these Gods "lords", "Idols" and "hairy men".
What is it that I find ironic about light white occultists? Why, look at the title! it contradicts itself. The occult IS the black arts. The "Demons", proported "fallen angels", are the pagan gods - it doesn't matter which, just all of them. All of the occult, mysticism, spirituality, and psychics are synonymous with the judeao-christian mythological figure "satan" and the pagan gods of the "demonic" goetia; apparently, the occult, mysticism, and spirituality are all deceptions by "satan" and "demons". The spirit world is the kingdom of satan, and all spirit mediumship, whether proported to be with ghosts, angels, whatever, are supposedly these demons at the other end of the line pinching their noses.
Do not kid yourself folks - the wonderful yahweh and his son strictly condemned all forms of the occult and spiritualism.
Can you see the hypocrasy of walking into the realm of the occult whilst carrying the attached stigma?
Next time you're discussing astral projection, divination, spirit mediumship, and any other of the black arts do not forget to throw in the name of jesus ad neuseum, the man who proportedly cast out unclean spirits from the likes of spiritualists, fortune tellers and sorcers,, the son of the one who ordered his people to stone to death sorceres, diviners, sooth sayers and mediums.
In my experience, all true occultists eventually tread the left hand path. Otherwise they'd just be mystics.
Hmmmm.
Now if I believe that Jesus wasn't a "Son of God", but just a man, albeit an adept as high as man can hope to achieve, then everything ArianKnight said is spurious. Deeds attributed to him are, well, the edited accounts by men. I'd love to read some of the books NOT included in the bible. There's sooooooo much missing, it's mind boggling.
And If I assume the nature of "gods" is what it really is (as opposed to GOD), then ArianKnight is also mostly right.
A quandry? Not at all. Semantics. GOD as in the force behind the creation of this universe, and "god" as in oh say, Odin. Are both real? Most definately. Is one more powerful than the other? Well, of course. But GOD isn't going to show up on your doorstep.
Monotheism is a construct of men after power. It has nothing to do with 'reality'. Any new religion has to stomp on the old ones, but it can't be too different or it won't get any converts. That's just power politics.
Let's look at a practical example the God/Goddess aka Gaia. Deity? No. Fellow sentient being? Most definately. A being you can work with? Bigtime. Worship? Ummmm, no. Not for me. Symbiotic relationship? The #1 reason humans are here at this time.
So, for clarities sake, are we defining the following?
Left Hand Path The path that follows individuality. A solo quest through life. You are only interested inenlightening yourself.
Right Hand Path The path that follows the group. A group qwest through life. Trying to enlighten others as much if not moreso than yourself.
Now I'm pondering. I do think you can be left or right hand path and still be white. That's white in a metaphysical sense, leave religion out for now.
The books missing from the bible such as the book of thomas etc, although I don't know much about them, include jesus have sex with prostitues and bashing a boy to death with a rock because he had something jesus wanted.
In my opinion this man never existed. And whether he did or he didn't, he is sorely over-rated. He was a jewish man who said that he was God, and made his followers leave behind their families and their lives to join him...sounds like a modern day cult, no?
Just like alot of modern day cults still are loosely based of judeao-christian beleifs with major differences Jesus's teachings were loosely based of judaism well were still very different.
Remember, he didn't really forfill what he taught. He got angry at people plenty of times, expressed hatred as well, cursed people, at one time he killed a fig tree for not bearing him fruit when it wasn't a fruit bearing season, he encouraged his disciples to buy swords and condemned those who did not want to kill.
I do not think that he was the best anyone could hope to be.
But I don't base my account on written works of men. I can sight works to say anything I want if I dig deep enough. I can find works in the current bible to ...let's pick on James S...self proclaimed witch, to condem him to death and praise him as god's agent in different books. Let's face it, the Bible is a book full of contradictions, often in the same chapters.
Bhudist ahve the same problem. Bhudda says you can achieve enlightenment in your lifetime, yet nearly all buddists don't hink they will this lifetime, and already plan on another incarnation to finish. They have self-defeated themselves before thye even tried!
Well, there are many stages of enlightenment. Perfect Complete Enlightenment is the final stage. Yes, buddhists will say that the chances of acheiving this in one life time are nill.
According to a Buddhist it takes alot of accumulation and lifetimes to get to the stage you are at now.
Perhaps what is meant by "the chances of acheiving perfect complete enlightenment in one lifetime is nil", is that in order to come across the buddha's teachings whilst incarnate in a human body, you would have already had to have done alot of incarnating and accumulating, so you cannot encounter the buddha's teachings and acheive in enlightenment in one or you first lifetime.
who cares what a bunch of lazy monks say? Buddha counts, and he said all that was required was immense hard work and effort on your part. It is your determination that counts, not one loser monk's opinion. As far as the Buddha is concerned that negative monk is wasting his time in self doubt and silly debate instead of doing the hard work of cleansing oneself.
I think you better seriously reconsider you are calling a loser and lazy, a normal member of the sangha does 16 hours of study a day and I'm talking about ven. master chin kung.
One can clearly see here that there is a dividing line between how one views the left hand path.
I want to clarify my stance in the issue.
I don't object to adepti using spirits of various kind, Goetic or Qlipphotic.
I like Crowley, and well he had his share of dark streaks ;-)
But ultimately magick and mysticism are two rivers that flow together.
I really think that Crowley foremost saw himself as a mystic, more than a magus.
I think it was PF Case who said that a magician should be like a glass window^, if you understand the metaphor. Magick do inflate the ego,hence the many historical in-fights in orders such as Golden Dawn.
This is also detrimental as the goal of mysticism and magick is to let go of the ego. Once you reach the Archetypal triangle you have to let go of the ego.
Magick is yes as commented here deemed by Christians as anti-Christian yet the greatest magickal traditions where esoterically Christian! Both Rosicrucian (Golden Dawn, OTO, BOTA, etc) and Ogdoadic (Aurum Solis) have been largely formed by Christian adepti.
Magick unfortunately has become a shadow (using a Jung concept here) of religious people's fears.
Most magick students are confronted with these fears if their activities should be known.
So I suggest to better call it "personal development". as many perosnal development, mental training courses as used by most athletes are Occult technniques!!
But there is also a esoteric trend to seek out esoteric dangers and wallow in it. This mayt be a danger in that qlipphotic mighty energies might find a suitable channel for manifestation.
Can you as a left-hand magician deal with a Demon King??? (the equivalent of a Archangel).
There are few high grade white magicians who can. Romero here at Astralpulse can.
I don't condemn calling up demons (if you have the true skill to do so), but you have to know what you are doing and how to control whatever answers your call. Also do you really know their agenda of answering?? This is of course a danger in all types of magickal evocation and I'm not being paranoid, I'm just calling to attention important points.
I'm interested in demonology and other dark aspects, but I would never turn to just work solely with Qlipphotic energies.
For me the Qlipphah are aspects that one has to face in one way or other. They may be illuminating, but I wouldn't praise them.
But I guess whether one turns left or right in magick is a matter of taste.
There have been many crimes where mentally unbalanced peole have told of being controlled by inner voices that urged them to kill.
Perhaps just acute psychosis/mental stability you might say? I'm not so certain.
This may not be dark/left-hand magicians but there unfortunately other people that turn to Satanism (not Church of Satan or Temple of Set-type satanism), I mean the real low type, and they fall to easy prey to negative energies that prey on the unwary.
There must be a reason that so many people on this board have experienced neg problems.
Then one can debate whether negs are qlipphotic or not. I would say they are to some extent.
But even if they aren't we have to learn how to deal with their type of energies.
There's one thing I can be sure about the "goetic qlipothic entities" and that's that its bovine excrement. They are not "empty shells" or psychic vampires. That's an insult. There's nothing to handling a "demon king"; what, really, do you expect when you draw up a nine-foot protective circle on the floor, brand the demon with a magickal weapon, treat it like a slave demanding things from it and abusing it with enemy god names?
You wouldn't treat an Angel in this way, and guess what? an Angel would not take excrement like this either.
quote:
This may not be dark/left-hand magicians but there unfortunately other people that turn to Satanism (not Church of Satan or Temple of Set-type satanism), I mean the real low type, and they fall to easy prey to negative energies that prey on the unwary.
"The real low type"? You seem to be reffering to theistic satanism, perhaps you should discover just what you are talking about instead of making assumptions based off crappy movies and tv shows. The temple of set are theistic satanists as well...can you honestly say yuo've met one theistic satanist who has "fallen to easy pray to negative energies"?
Have you ever even summoned or worked with a demon, or had any *real* experience with a goetic demon at all?
I've never said that Goetic spirits and Qlipphah are the same!!!
You accuse me of not knowing what I talk about yet you call a Qlipphoth "an empty shell", talk about throwing stones in a glass house!
Or maybe it should be a left hand glass house ;-).
I have studied texts by dark magicians who are solely working with qlipphotic energies and say they are benefiting very well from this type of studies. Fine, yet, this is somwhat of an uncharted territory, even they, the dark magicians declare it as such. Few have really been there.
I respect those who have the ability to deal with Qlipphotic energies are learn from it. Yet I confess that I hold a prejudiced view that there are some dangers involved, based on the experience I have of negattacks:
The question is how related negs and qlipphotic (or dark; whatever you prefer to call it) energies are related, my experience say they are related. And so does others like RB.
So thus my biased view. I also feel empathy for those people who suffer from negs and /or possession, and I want to help if I can:
I also have six years of experience working in ma psychiatric institution.
Do you?? Maybe you consider these people who suffer from negs are to blame themselves,and that if they can't handle it so let them perish??
And Yes, maybe I meant theistic satanists.
And yes I haven't invoked a demon or a goetic spirit. Have you??? I really suspect you haven't. I've had contact once or twice with what looked like a demon or satyr, that appeared clearly outside my circle.
I respect all these powers for what they are. But I won't start praising them.
The only force to praise is your higher self!!!
PS: This board has unfortunately turned to a place where people seem must interested in furthering their own narrow ideas and calling people names who don't share them.
When I joined it was a place where people shared their experiences and respected each other. It is a pity really. DS.
Just to add to my previous comment:
Some left hand magicians state that demons are misunderstood powers, their dark imagery is just a result of a negative notion of them, and that if they are revealed or manifested by the magician, they will become completely positive. Hence their evilness or unbalance is just an illusion made up by the Christians and other religions.
This positive view is similar to the kurdish Yezidis who view Lucifer as a positive spiritual being.
In my opinion it may be true of some dark/qlipphotic entities, but not all of these type of entities, and I see it as a mistake and spiritually misleading to view the Qlipphotic Tree as positive.
One has to treat it for what it is.
Also demonic possession do exist even if it's rare, and to say that someone possessed is'nt suffering would be an insult to the sufferer.
If demons would be positive beings then they wouldn't attack or possess people, or make them do acts of violence.
I have heard one story from an occultist in Sweden who was sought out by a group of girls for help, they had experimented with an Ouija board with really disastrous results, they all had suffered violent attacks and partial possession when using the board.
Yet, perhaps we are entering into a karmic phase where we have to start dealing with unbalanced energies on a grander cosmic scale. I have heard some esotericists saying that there are darker energies that try to get a "karmic hitchhike".
There is probably a great deal to learn from the averse side of the Tree, the problem is how to integrate the energies in a way that harmonizes with the balanced Tree.
Some of this is what you are born to. By that I mean soul history, assignment, nature and nurture all rolled into one. Different people have different skills, different callings, different shadow work to do.
Watching, I have seen that the farther you go on your path the more you have to deal with the same stuff -- whether you take the light or the dark path.
How many "light side" holy mystics are really in it because they're chasing some kind of desire for a lightside "win" -- to be admired and outrank the lesser masses? Greed is just a part of all of us, and we have to deal with it. Ditto on pretty much everything else.
The thing is, most Travelers will find it all more manageable if they stay in the light. It seems like the lightside path arranges the lessons and the tests in the best order for most of us material beings. The darkside path has the same lessons -- if you get far enough -- but the burden that is accrued along the path quickly becomes unmanageable for real progress. I'm often reminded there of the way a particle accellerated toward the speed of light starts to gain mass.
I'm not sure of this, but it would appear from what I have seen that there are "born to" exceptions. I think that the misuse of the right hand path creates a kind of pressure or void that demands a balance on the left side. When that happens, sometimes a great soul is born into a set of parameters where their calling is to the left hand path. Those few individuals, for whatever reason, seem to be able to get far enough on the path to ultimately confront the lessons not usually experienced on the left hand path. I'm not talking about the mages who seem to take everything they are and push the left hand path deeper into the black. I'm saying that there are some people who walk that path and find enlightenment.
When I run into one of those, I think "Better you than me, pal!" and practice gratitude for the work they're doing.
What it's taught me is that I need to look carefully at my relationship with truth. When I am attracted to the left hand path -- what's really going on? Sometimes, it's been that I picked up a "rider" and wasn't aware. Sometimes, it's that my ego is unwilling to visit the next evolution in the road and a little walk on the wild side seems like a diversion that might slow me up. Most of the time, it's that a handful of incompatible and unattractive truths have piled up and rather than deal with them one at a time, the Other Way calls.
As for the things that go bump in the night, most of what people experience as demons aren't real demons at all, even though there are lots of things out there willing to pretend -- and really good at it! I used to think it was just a semantics thing, since after all if you experience something as a demon and it's that destructive, what's the point of arguing? After several years of unmasking "demons" and insisting there really were no such thing -- I ran into two. I pray never again. That wasn't fun. The people who brought them to me acquired them messing around with dark side things pretending to be demons. When the student is ready the teacher appears.
Hello Matthias
I suggest that everyone read the book A treatsie on White Magic by Alice Bailey and Djwhul Khul. It states in there all of the things you are talking about and how the energies affect people.
You have to get past the dated flowerly language but people on the left hand path follow the path of mentalism and thinking that they themselves are the only power. They have personal power and do not use anything else.They follow the path of Ego and self-aggrandizement.
The people who work upon the energy of God or the great now draw it into themselves from above. Their soul becomes a conduit for God and they do the work and effort for Gods plan to help all humanity. They may never completely do anything but achieve their part of the plan but that is enough.
Everyone is tempeted by the left hand path by the decisions they make in life. The little decisions add up so you either go one way or another even if you are not consciously causing trouble to anyone else but yourself.
You do this by making the choices where you glorify your ego and yourself. It traps you in a cycle where you cut your soul off from God by the decisions that you make.
On the subject of demons you will not be able to achieve anything with a demon that you can not achieve with God. Demons and the negative energies are part of the plan to show one why the right decisions have to be made to further the plan.
Now personally I would prefer to help others and move things along for a better future for everyone. I have heard all sorts of stuff recently like spiritual satanism, qlippothic magic etc. Everyone has a choice and reading books and thinking about those choices is the best thing you can do for yourself.
Nita
Thank you, Nita--that was very coherent and eloquent.
Aryanknight666, you mentioned, "You are mistaken if you think the occult adepts have always been sourceophiles, because to be quite frank, these notion of jesus, buddha, krishna, all being mystic prophets of the "I AM" maker source, are really quite young, and you're famous occultist or occult adepts came before these theories ever existed. And, just for the record, most if not all of them were of the left hand path.".
Upon what do you base these statements? Lifetimes of personal experience and study lead me to disagree with you totally.
before any discussion is held of who followed the left hand or right hand path, these two paths must be clearly defined.
left hand - shakti(female-goddess)with form -- performance of magic
right hand - shiva (male- god)without form -- wisdom, universal
followers of either path can eventually "fall" or turn to evil, and there is nothing inherently evil about the left hand.
Out of all the recent practitioners, the most right handed was Buddha, he was purely meditational and discouraged all his students from demonstrating any magic - which is left hand. He was the purest wisdom, as he refused to call himself or allow anyone else to call him God and only wanted to be known as a teacher. After his death however, the left hand formed a major part of Buddhism.
Christianity - left hand forms (Mother Mary) a major part of his worship, he also liked showing off miracles and working magic which is pure left hand. He loved being called the son of God or Son of Man by others.
However, most great sages practiced both and ALL great sages were proficient with both.
I've never seen the term defined this way before in any literature at all.
Nita's definition is the closest to my understanding of "Left handed path" that I've seen in this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by boydster
I've never seen the term defined this way before in any literature at all.
Nita's definition is the closest to my understanding of "Left handed path" that I've seen in this thread.
Well the western tradition kind of became quite biased against the left hand path as being automatically evil, left is "sinister"...
The fact that left hand worship meant goddess worship was lost in the west with semitic traditions emphasizing the right hand superiority, but in actuality utilizing secretly the left hand. Bible states Jesus sat on the right hand of God.
Worship of the "dark Mary" vs. "fair Mary" is basically the left hand path.
Hinduism in particular preserved both paths quite well. The picture of the half Shiva half kali body of God is what the left hand/right hand means. Shiva is on the right, shakti is on the left -- THE TWO TOGETHER FORM THE BODY OF GOD.
The very hand greeting of Namaste is uniting the left hand with the right hand, the union of Shiva and Shakti, Yang and yin.
I agree, the left is not evil. IMHO I think it is discouraged because of the "micacle" type experiences it provides.
As for me I would fall into the left hand path. I am both left handed psionically and physically. Although I abused what I was given as a kid, I no longer do this.
Free will allows everyone to choose their path, left or right.
I think we're getting lost in semantics here.
I do not consider that worshipping the deity in it's feminine form is evil or wrong. But then I've never heard of Goddess worship as being called the "left handed path" either. I point once again to Nita's definition as probably the most widely understood meaning of "left handed path".
You all are free to define it as you will, of course.
to help others you must first help yourself
as usual, balance is called for
if you spend ALL your time helping others and at the same time you are unconciously boosting your ego how great you are becouse you help others you are getting nowhere
if you spend ALL your time treating others like sh** becouse you are so great and going for divinity/enlightment, you are boosting your ego and getting nowhere
if you advance enough, and UNDERSTAND that by helping others you are helping yourself, and do it unconditionally without defining yourself by it, and learn from it (but not spend all the time on it), you are getting somewhere
edit:(you see, we are all equal, but focusing only on one path tends to distort the view in both extremes)
but to advance you must first cleanse yourself, and no other human being can help you, this is the path each of us travels alone
i see magic as a useful tool that allows one to do more, and that removes obstacles which would slow down progress to enlighment/divinity, but not as the goal itself
i like kalrati definition and i practise both paths (magic and buddhism), becouse of the possibilites i gain that allow me to do more, both in helping myself and others
if you get sick won't you use magic to heal yourself ??, and if you see loved (but it could be virtually anyone..) one suffering can't you see through using telepathy/intuition and solve the problem at it's core ??,
and then, by practising buddhism (whatever, really ), you are emotionally stable and able to be objective and find the right solution ??
balance is called for ...
Actually I never disagreed with Nita's definition of the left hand path which she states as being "mental". In fact, anyone well read in the texts would know that my definition is the same as her's just put in a different way.
I simply disagreed on whether the ENTIRE left hand path is black magic.
Again the entire context of the title of the thread as Buddha might say, is incorrect.
To say that one should avoid the left hand path is is like saying you want to drink milk without the calcium and protein, since calcium and protein strengthen the body and mind --> which might lead to a bigger ego--> which leads to evil.
So please avoid at all costs calcium and protein.[;)]
I did a whole bunch of reading online about the different ideas behind the left handed and right handed paths. It seems to me that there are two distinctly different descriptions for these terms out there. Some people here are referring to a description which I had never heard of, and which seems to be the basis for Kalratri's remarks (and others as well).
My background regarding these terms is rooted in their useage by Blavatsky's teachers, the Masters Morya, Koot Hoomi, Djwal Kul and others. And the term "left handed path" is, from this perspective, nicely summed up and also fairly restricted to Nita's description:
quote:
Originally posted by Nita
...people on the left hand path follow the path of mentalism and thinking that they themselves are the only power. They have personal power and do not use anything else. They follow the path of Ego and self-aggrandizement.
Neither I nor anyone else here to my knowledge insinuated that the left handed path is all "black magic". I would, however, like to insinuate that the left handed path (my definition of it...) is not the most sure way to lasting health and happiness. Followers tend to make more karma which drags them into costly payback scenarios over a number of lifetimes. It tends to create spiritual blindness and vulnerability due to the undesireable connections and attractions the follower tumbles into.
I myself tend more towards a path of devotion to female deities such as Kali, Shakti and Mother Mary. A real important part of my path is the persistent raising of the Kundalini into my upper chakras, not for personal power or magic though. It is so that I may join, as Shakti, my Lord, my Higher Self or Shiva form. It is through the divine feminine polarity that I may rise into oneness with the Source.
I think, as you point out, many if not most spiritual luminaries have risen to their positions through paths which include worshipping and becoming one with the divine feminine polarity. My point of contention is that, to my knowledge, none of THEM terms this the left handed path. I've read quite of bit of teachings by the ascended members of the spiritual hierarchy of this planet and they seem to be pretty consistent in THEIR use of the term. And, once again, it mirrors what Nita mentions. My comments about the left handed path, if they seem disparaging, refer only to the definition I choose to accept and use.
i don't really see the problem with self aggrandizement and ego worship.
quote:
Originally posted by runlola
Anyway, what is this thread about again? What's attractive about using black magick?<--is that the question?
Mathias used the term "left handed path" in connection to comments about black magic practices and ever since then (it seems) we've been debating about the definition of "left handed path". It seems to have pushed the buttons of a number of people, including me, who have a fairly well conceived personal definition of the term, but whose various disparate definitions don't match up well.
My interest in the thread is prolonged when I see comments like this:
quote:
Originally posted by Moonburn33
i don't really see the problem with self aggrandizement and ego worship.
Maybe Moonburn is just baiting me, maybe not. Either way I feel compelled to make comments to the effect that what you put your energy and attention into really does have consequences, even the apparent harmlessness of self idolatry and selfishness in ones personal choices. It sets up the next few dominos of ones experiences or even lives which bring understanding (sometimes painfully) to the one who elects so. Thus my previous comments:
"Followers (of the LHP) tend to make more karma which drags them into costly payback scenarios over a number of lifetimes. It tends to create spiritual blindness and vulnerability due to the undesireable connections and attractions the follower tumbles into."
It might take time to arrive at, but it is inexorably true that the LHP is a regretable decision. I'm not talking about instant payback, like one week later you regret a decision. I'm talking about your soul gets to the end of a particular run of a half dozen lives and can see clearly that he regrets a decision he made a few thousand years ago which created karmic debts and delays which played out slowly and expensively over several (or more) lifetimes.
I hope this frames my comments better. This is the way I see this issue--what does a decision cost over the period of many lifetimes, not just my current little stage act. If we make our decisions based on the feedback we get from day to day we tend to resemble, in the long run, blind men running.
OK, here is an encyclopedia definition, including a description of how its usage in the West was changed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Hand_Path
Very interesting reading, and from its conclusions, I appear to (ahem) swing both ways.
I liked Kalratri's definition... but I guess if you ask what 'left hand path' means, it is clear that it means different things to different people.
Hi Boydster, I notice your avatar is Babaji, (are you are kriyaban?) Do you think he exhibited some of both paths as described in the link above? Would he make a distinction?
quote:
Originally posted by SomeBloke
Hi Boydster, I notice your avatar is Babaji, (are you are kriyaban?) Do you think he exhibited some of both paths as described in the link above? Would he make a distinction?
The link you included is one which I did read very carefully recently in order to try to figure out where this apparent dichotomy of definitions appeared from.
Babaji is what I aspire to be like. I know him from reading SRF books and from some other sources as well. I am not formally associated with the SRF but I adore the books and the mission of the organization. It's just not my group of people at this point though.
I have been engaged in various yogic practices for over half of my 44 years and recently convinced a friend to loan me his kriya instruction book. I read most of it and felt as though I understand what it is about. I tried it (kriya yoga) several times and found it to be safe and effective. I will probably adopt it more into my life as time goes on, adding it to the things I already do regularly.
As for how Babaji defines the left handed path--who knows? The important part for me is that Babaji has sacrificed himself for the salvation of the unascended souls of this planet. He has delayed his rightfully earned escape into the bliss of nirvana in order to spend his time teaching and raising up those in need. I don't believe that any of his activities at this point are for "himself". He lives toward the end of all mankind attaining their ultimate respective goals.
Did he spend time earlier in his life working to free himself from the bondage of his karma or to work on raising his consciousness out of the limitations of the mortal brain/mind? Of course. And you could call that self-centered I guess, from a limited point of view. But I don't define that as the left handed path, myself. I would call it "taking care of business" before getting on with the ultimage goal of service to life.
well, ahem. There are so many people who claim that they have attained Nirvana/moksha...so many coming from India, that I thought I should make a suggestion.
If you really want to test any of these claims, do something to that person that ought to hurt like crazy any ordinary person...if he escapes everytime or doesn't even wince and not one drop of blood falls, than you know this person is for real, otherwise this so called "guru" is just crazy trying to make money and probably doesn't have a clue as to what attaining Nirvana is.
Another clue as to THE REAL DEAL, is if he's the picture of health, strong, good skin/hair, strong shiny eyes,etc. That's also a sign of someone who knows energy. The person should not have lose aging skin, look horrible. IN FACT, ALL sages who have attained anything were NOT ugly or unhealthy looking but were in fact attractive. True nirvana destroys all imperfections of the body and soul.
Ofcourse, if the guy is for real, then he might curse you and you get a horrible neg infestation.
[:P]
:arrow:
quote:
Originally posted by kalratri
well, ahem. There are so many people who claim that they have attained Nirvana/moksha...so many coming from India, that I thought I should make a suggestion.
If you really want to test any of these claims, do something to that person that ought to hurt like crazy any ordinary person...if he escapes everytime or doesn't even wince and not one drop of blood falls, than you know this person is for real, otherwise this so called "guru" is just crazy trying to make money and probably doesn't have a clue as to what attaining Nirvana is.
Another clue as to THE REAL DEAL, is if he's the picture of health, strong, good skin/hair, strong shiny eyes,etc. That's also a sign of someone who knows energy. The person should not have lose aging skin, look horrible. IN FACT, ALL sages who have attained anything were NOT ugly or unhealthy looking but were in fact attractive. True nirvana destroys all imperfections of the body and soul.
Ofcourse, if the guy is for real, then he might curse you and you get a horrible neg infestation.
[:P]
Here is some info about Babaji--he's not your ordinary Indian guru:
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/33.asp
What is the attraction of the left hand path?
For me personally, it's mostly about freedom, with a pinch of pride,
ego,lust,spite and a desire for vengeance thrown in for good measure.
Freedom:
Serving yourself and your own desires first above all others,
gods and devils included.
ego/pride:
Endeavoring to reshape the universe to your own model rather than the other way around. Futile? Maybe, see spite.
Lust:
Pursuing physical-reality attachments/desires without guilt, no matter
what methods employed to obtain such desires.
Spite/desire for vengeance:
Vengeance for what? Existence.
I never asked for this existence, so don't expect me to play by the rules of a game that I never wanted to play in the first place, and
I will do everything in my power to diametrically oppose myself from
whoever/whatever is responsible for my existence whether they/it be
a deity, higher-self, aliens or whatever. So, I attempt to numb the
pain of existence with self-aggrandizement and base desires until such
time that the enemy surrenders and negates my existence, whether it
takes one lifetime or a million.
How can anyone be attracted to evil? I don't get it.
I mean let's really look at evil. How much fun could it be to hurt babies, animals, perform really sick sexually deviant acts (outside and inside the species), get diseases, give diseases, make people into soap (Hitler).
There's also the occasional possessed dictator causing massive holocausts against defenseless people, and that includes killing little babies.
I mean, sheesh! How fun can it be? Evil people should really think about it.
[:(!]
quote:
Originally posted by kalratri
How can anyone be attracted to evil? I don't get it.
I mean let's really look at evil. How much fun could it be to hurt babies, animals, perform really sick sexually deviant acts (outside and inside the species), get diseases, give diseases, make people into soap (Hitler).
There's also the occasional possessed dictator causing massive holocausts against defenseless people, and that includes killing little babies.
I mean, sheesh! How fun can it be? Evil people should really think about it.
[:(!]
What you bring up is almost an entire different thread.
The psychology of evil and rebellion against the Source seems to the rest of us to be like an unexplainable insanity.
Suffice it to say, the Source gives them plenty of chances of see and embrace the Light before they are put out of their misery permanently.
quote:
Originally posted by kalratri
How can anyone be attracted to evil? I don't get it.
I mean let's really look at evil. How much fun could it be to hurt babies, animals, perform really sick sexually deviant acts (outside and inside the species), get diseases, give diseases, make people into soap (Hitler).
There's also the occasional possessed dictator causing massive holocausts against defenseless people, and that includes killing little babies.
I mean, sheesh! How fun can it be? Evil people should really think about it.
[:(!]
There are different degrees to everything.
Sure, I might sleep with your wife while you are out of town on buissiness, but that doesn't mean that I would get off on murdering
infants or molesting your dog.
People like me are the reason that societies have laws and a punishment system to enforce them.
The only thing that I could think of as worse than existing in this
reality, would be existing in this reality locked inside of a cage.
I'll give you a couple of examples:
I drive the speed-limit. Do I do so because I have some moral concern
for the safety of others on the road with me?
Absolutely not.
I drive the speed-limit because if a cop catches me speeding, he is
going to write me a ticket which will cost me hard-earned money.
There are more than a few people that have crossed me in my life.
They are still alive only because of societies laws and the punishment
system to back up those laws.
When I was younger, I struggled alot with this, eventually I came to
the conclusion that it would be far better just to admit to and be
comfortable with the fact that to play by anyone else's rules but my
own, would be to deny myself what little comfort I can find on this
miserable rock.
my contention is that whatever made reality wants us to become separate from it. I believe that nirvana is a sin, in that sense. Everything that we do is for the stability, or perceived stability of our own organisms. I base my belief system on that in that the only way to be happy is to do what i want to do- that includes helping others if it floats my boat. I think that being intentionally hurtful to others for no reason or any of the other things discussed in this thread is not the left hand path, but the path of Stupidity.
unless it's what you need to be truly happy :P
quote:
Originally posted by boydster
The psychology of evil and rebellion against the Source seems to the rest of us to be like an unexplainable insanity.
Suffice it to say, the Source gives them plenty of chances of see and embrace the Light before they are put out of their misery permanently.
I would not think that people that commit what others think are gross acts of evil are actually measuring themselves against some 'high' standard. They probably have their own agenda and pursue it wherever it takes them. Amazingly within these mindsets there might well be an internal code of behaviour which includes a sense of family and friends loyalty held to the highest measure whilst anyone outside is fair game. This can be seen in crime syndicates, dictatorships and many other closed groupings.
Why have the actions of some priests been protected by other priests? Also do those priests think that they are above a higher law or do they not believe in a higher law, I suppose the ability to confess such acts in exchange for forgivness might also be a part of this?
I think I used to be somewhat that way, during a particularly distressing time in my life, I was resenting existence and wanting enough power to get my own way. But I think when I realized what true evil is (particularly after witch mother decided to attack her baby son to get even), i.e., attacking defenseless people, innocent children, hurting those who can't protect themselves, being sneaky and devious and constantly lying, I realized that I would not stand in the center and be this bitter embodied spirit resenting existence because I didn't ask for it. I knew then to oppose evil whenever I encountered it.
Watch yourself, you never know when a little evil might lead you to greater evil.
Sometimes circumstances pushes you to one side or the other.
What I can't understand is that dark magicians (let's not get caught up in left-hand semantics now) praise the individual Ego/lower self, yet when you die the Ego dies (or at least it gradually fades off in the astral), the only thing that survives and evolves is the Spirit/the Higher Self. So what you going to do to keep the Ego only, the only way is to vampirize a living being (similar to one of Dion Fortune's case studies in her classic PSYCHIC SELF DEFENSE).
The main general problem with magick is that it inflates the ego, that is, the force that you channel and build up, is mainly energy from the higher self.
PF Case (of BOTA) stated very wisely that a magician should be like a piece of glass, he/she reflects and channels the light above.
So identifying with the Ego (cosnciously or unconsciously) is a common magickal problem (also for white magicians).
As for dark magicians view of the cosmos: they state that the cosmic order (the balanced Tree) is something evil (in a kind of gnostic way), and the averse tree (the qlipphotic) is something beneficial. They use the kundalini instead of the crown chakra as main power supply (and Qlipphotic entrance), and focus solely on the dark spheres.
Also they use the Eastern symbolism - mainly of tantra and tantric buddhism - to justify their direction. Add to this some Crowley influence, some Church of Satan or Temple of Seth influences,some Nietzchean elitist ideas,some of Kenneth Grant's ideas and some chaos magick ideas, some Gnostic and Yezidi ideas, and your dark magick direction is complete.
To conclude this, to think that you are creating your "own world with qlipphotic builfding blocks" to me seems like a major spiritual delusion, and qlipphah, probably doesn't say no to some willing human mediums to help their manifestation of unbalanced energy.
I know some will be ticked off by this, so please understand that this is my personal view. It is finally up to everyone to choose his or her own path.
There was a comment here on a memebr who used Goetic magic to deal with negs, this made me think about the seemingly growing interest in dark/black magick.
About ten years ago whilst subscribing to a Swedish occult magazine,
one can coukld clearly see (especially in the contact ads) that there was a strong interest in all things related to the left hand path, vampirism,etc.
In Sweden there is also a magickal society which is focused entirely on what they call "dark magick", they explore the qlipphotic paths etc. call up qlipphotic entities and they state that this is beneficial and something spiritually over-looked by most magicians. They also focus on the kundalini-force (rather than calling down force from the sphere above the head).
For me, I can agree that it is vital to know thyself, especially the dark and shadowy aspects of oneself (as these are aspects that are used by negs, for instance). But to devote oneself entirely to this aspect seems suspect.
It seems that there is a strong attraction from these dark spheres, and one wonders what trail of negs follows in the wake of such operations, so the problem of negs is thus quite symptomatic.
Personally I wouldn't experiment with such forces unless I was a very advanced practicioner.
I know that the left hand path has tried to recruit me, but, no thanks, it is not my cup of tea. I don't want to go backwards in my spriritual evolution.
I suspect that there are practioners of the left hand path who use negs to consciously attack people, such as "if you don't join us, then will make sure your theurgic studies are impeded". I have remember once having seen a hooded left hand figures in a vision.
Well like you said, its your personal veiw. You are stating everything from your personal veiw. You are saying 'I can't understand why dark magicians praise the ego/lower self' because after death it all fades away on the astral and we have to return to the source or whatever. But you are treating this as though it is the complete and absolute truth and that everyone knows about it. You should beleive everything you read in a New Age book. Just this comment in itself 'ego/lower self' why does the ego have to be the lower self? I hope you understand that modern spiritualism/New Age is a religion just like christianity, judaism and islam and is no different in that it is full of dogma and behaves like it is the complete and absolute truth.
Quote from: Mathias JonssonThere was a comment here on a memebr who used Goetic magic to deal with negs, this made me think about the seemingly growing interest in dark/black magick.
About ten years ago whilst subscribing to a Swedish occult magazine,
one can coukld clearly see (especially in the contact ads) that there was a strong interest in all things related to the left hand path, vampirism,etc.
In Sweden there is also a magickal society which is focused entirely on what they call "dark magick", they explore the qlipphotic paths etc. call up qlipphotic entities and they state that this is beneficial and something spiritually over-looked by most magicians. They also focus on the kundalini-force (rather than calling down force from the sphere above the head).
For me, I can agree that it is vital to know thyself, especially the dark and shadowy aspects of oneself (as these are aspects that are used by negs, for instance). But to devote oneself entirely to this aspect seems suspect.
It seems that there is a strong attraction from these dark spheres, and one wonders what trail of negs follows in the wake of such operations, so the problem of negs is thus quite symptomatic.
Personally I wouldn't experiment with such forces unless I was a very advanced practicioner.
I know that the left hand path has tried to recruit me, but, no thanks, it is not my cup of tea. I don't want to go backwards in my spriritual evolution.
I suspect that there are practioners of the left hand path who use negs to consciously attack people, such as "if you don't join us, then will make sure your theurgic studies are impeded". I have remember once having seen a hooded left hand figures in a vision.
I think you have an interesting point here. I can't prove anything, but I tend to believe that the reason we're here in the first place is because we wanted to experience something which was of "lower nature". Think of it as the black magic of a higher world. A group of souls wanted to control /experience the physical and thus they were sent into this spiral into which they eventually lost their identity and purpose. Some of us are spiraling back up while others are still spiraling back down to an even deeper level. The danger in going there is loosing contact with the higher self and going even deeper than you initially wanted to go. I recall a movie about black magic "Witches"? Where a bunch of girls got together to try dark magic and they eventually turned up so obsessed by the magic that the magic ended up controlling them and not the other way around. I think this is a metaphor for what happened to us all.
I would like to say as a follower of the right hand path that there is still great danger of ego on the RHP. I have seen this countless times amongst gurus, monks etc. who follow renunciation of desire and ego. However, what they do not understand is that one must have great desire to be desireless and have great ego to believe oneself egoless. Many who reach high levels of attainment on the RHP suddenly do not know how to handle the immense energies and consciousness and develop a saviour or martar complex (a form of egoless ego), where they believe they are sacrificing self for all others and accumulating wealth etc for the cause and position to spread the word. Not that one cannot truly sacrifice self for others but this is rarely truly done. Instead wealth, position and elitous idealism sneak in a broadening backdoor. It is not easy accepting ego as that which is an intregral part of the great observer yet is indeed only a small part of the great observer.
I do believe also that all who follow the RHP should study and understand the LHP (though I would never embrace it). I would strongly urge the RHP to be followed fully first. There are many traps and pitfalls in the LHP...though with that comes great learning...but not learning for the faint of heart or weak of spiritual connection.
Respects,
violetrose
Quote from: aryanknight666Well like you said, its your personal veiw. You are stating everything from your personal veiw. You are saying 'I can't understand why dark magicians praise the ego/lower self' because after death it all fades away on the astral and we have to return to the source or whatever. But you are treating this as though it is the complete and absolute truth and that everyone knows about it. You should beleive everything you read in a New Age book. Just this comment in itself 'ego/lower self' why does the ego have to be the lower self? I hope you understand that modern spiritualism/New Age is a religion just like christianity, judaism and islam and is no different in that it is full of dogma and behaves like it is the complete and absolute truth.
I don't think you can put peoples belief systems into a box like that. Especially not this group--- :wink:
Most people here would tell you that their understanding of reality is an ad hock mixture of personal observations and investigations along with reviewing the findings of a lot of different religions and belief systems, many of which are ancient. You take the parts of all of these systems which are consistent with each other and you get a picture which a surprisingly large number of people agree on. This is not my definition of a simpleton reading a book and going gaga over a highly debatable idea.
Trashing peoples ideas by labeling them new-age or whatever doesn't hold any water here at all.
New Age is the correct label. It refers to the beleif held that everyone will ascend to a state of godliness and 'christ consciousness' as predicted by grays, angels and spirit guides through channeling.
From what I have seen, this sort of religion is a result of wanting to venture into the occult, magick and psychic phenomana but keeping the attatched stigma. It is rejected the church and organised religion but not being able to let go of the monotheistic culture they have been raised in -- 'God' is just too deeply ingrained, people have to try and convince themselves that 'God' exists as long as they can take away the bits about it they don't like and keep the parts they do. It's also a rejection of christianity but being unable to accept a different religion again because of the ingrained christian predispositioning. They cannot bring themselves to turn their backs on christianity, so they simply conclude all religions lead to the judeao-christian 'God' and what they don't like in the bible isn't true, what the do like is, and that the bible was edited so all their new age beleifs like reincarnation and stuff were taken out.
The 'ancient religions' you speak of -- it would appear that the new age/spiritualism crowd have a very poor knowledge of all the religions they try and hodge podge and join together to form their own dogmatic and self-righteous religion.
I am a proud follower of the left hand path -- and what do right hand pathers have to say?
'Never venture into the left hand path/"dark side" it is evil! once you enter you can never go back and there are many pitfalls and traps in it!!'
What experience have they had with or in the left hand path?
Zilch.
They just rely of their own pseudo-intellectualism and assumptions that they are correct regardless of whether they have had any exerience with what they so sure footedly speak of.
Dear aryanknight666,
Aryan knight, and remember this is just one person's perception, not necessary reality (but perception is 9/10ths of one's own reality unfortunately)... that you are merely on the opposite end of the Christianity pole. You are as indoctrinated into dogma and as much at the will of another as a church going Christian is -- if not more so since many of the churches have loosened up as of late. I see little freedom or happiness in this.
Mind games can be played with equal skill on both the RHP and LHP. It is easy in most people to stir discontent, desire, aggrevation, argument. As soon as we achieve argument level we have now become a puppet on the string. We do not want to be puppets on a string but all too often we become just that -- ponds in a war of consciousness.
You do not fully understand the right hand path. You have not walked it in its fullest. You confuse it with religion and New Age Beliefs. You do not understand that in the later stages of the RHP it is about peeling away beliefs and finding the true essence of the original energies and consciousness. The beliefs can be looked on as temporary constructs -- intended to be outgrown -- intended to help grasp portions of the emmenseness from the highest height to the deepest depth -- and should never be used (by a church) as obstacles. It is the straight path up. I am a RHPer and I never said to not study or learn about the LHP. If you read my previous post I said RHPers should understand the LHP. You are making strong comments about something you do not fully understand -- the very thing you so severely chide others for doing. But then we usually dislike most in others what we dislike or fear within ourselves -- (Tough concept to accept but can bring huge insight and introspection).
The LHP digs much deeper into countless forms of energies and consciousness. If one is not spiritually strong it is easy to get swept away or overly intrigued (curiousity did eventually do something to that darn cat) or enthralled by the extraordinary expressions energy and consciousness can take on or be manipulated into. I feel one should understand the beauty of the original energies and consciousness before delving into that which was created from this. But that is just my opinion.
I am not interested in arguments and do not want to cause difficulties for you. I only want to point out that the problems with the RHP can also be found on the LHP and vice versa. The need to be right, the need for acceptance, the need to feel strong, the need to win, NEED......all lead in one direction. Needing this and that usually leads to aggrevation, manipulation and unhappiness (and this can happen on either path - RHP or LHP if one is not careful). Besides it distracts from true experience and learning. Each man/woman must decide for themselves what brings true happiness. Each man/woman will eventually discover this for themselves and this can never be rushed or imposed.
Best Wishes,
violetrose
QuoteAryan knight, and remember this is just one person's perception, not necessary reality (but perception is 9/10ths of one's own reality unfortunately)... that you are merely on the opposite end of the Christianity pole.
You are correct. I am at the opposite end of christianity, because I do not live in fear. When I am presented with information and statements, I question what I am given and what I question what I learn. I do my own research and I decide what is correct and valid. I am an individualist, and I have an iron will. I am a wolf, and not a sheep. I do not deny my carnal instincts and nature. I do not deny myself or my needs, I do not deny life. I do not leave any of the parts of the mind shadowed and I freely have my own ideas and opinions. I do not lesser myself and try to get pity from anybody, I do not pathetically beg and gruel. I am not of the herd mentality, but at the opposite end. That, and all of the aforementioned, means I am at the opposite of christianity.
QuoteMind games can be played with equal skill on both the RHP and LHP. It is easy in most people to stir discontent, desire, aggrevation, argument. As soon as we achieve argument level we have now become a puppet on the string. We do not want to be puppets on a string but all too often we become just that -- ponds in a war of consciousness.
I agree with this, as well. You are a puppet on a string.
QuoteYou do not fully understand the right hand path. You have not walked it in its fullest. You confuse it with religion and New Age Beliefs
Here, I am going to disagree with you, for I do understand the right hand path, and I have trodden the right hand path, 'in its fullest'. New Age
is a religion, and that is a fact.
QuoteYou do not understand that in the later stages of the RHP it is about peeling away beliefs and finding the true essence of the original energies and consciousness.
Show me one person who is in the 'later stages of the RHP' and who is finding 'the true essence of the original energies and consciousness'. You are certainly not, nobody on this forum is, nobody who I have ever met or heard of this. No one is.
The Right Hand Path also includes christianity, judaism and islam, in fact they are the corner stones of the right hand path, and do those paths, in the latter stages of treading them, come to peeling away beleifs and indulging in new age dogma like you suggest? No.
QuoteThe LHP digs much deeper into countless forms of energies and consciousness. If one is not spiritually strong it is easy to get swept away or overly intrigued (curiousity did eventually do something to that darn cat) or enthralled by the extraordinary expressions energy and consciousness can take on or be manipulated into. I feel one should understand the beauty of the original energies and consciousness before delving into that which was created from this. But that is just my opinion.
You do not have to have any sort of spiritual reality at all to tread the left hand path (Modern/Laveyan Satanism, COS, Athiesm).
You say you would rather deal with what created the energies and consciousness before delving into the energies and consciousness(s) themselves, but why does there have to be a creator? Is it a fact that there is a creator? No, that is a beleif.
From what I can see, you (thats a collective statement) hold your beleifs to the judeao-christian god and then venture into the occult. As a result, he and the angels excrement on you. Why do I say this? Look at the psychic self defense forum. Neg attack, Neg attack, Neg attack. So and so meditates an arch angel, who says everything in riddles, then he feels ill and exhausted afterwards. Do I, a follower of the left hand path and a dedicated satanist, have to deal with neg attacks constantly? No. Never. And here is you saying that neg attacks are all because of Satan and the Demons.
Dear Aryan knight,
Aw! But you do not know me, yet you judge me. :) Don't worry everyone judges before they know (including me). Don't be too sure about the higher consciousness and energy thingie. Robert and a few others here have had very high energy and consciousness experiences.
I do understand though, higher self, white light experiences, and higher practices (connections to higher energy and consciousness) likely just seems like dogma AND you know what it is until you directly experience it.
You sort of missed the point of my previous post a little bit. You have studied Satanistic material and literature. But it is still dogma if you have not actually fully experienced this first hand. People often do this. They swing from one extreme dogma to an opposite one. The only commonality is the extreme of the pendulum swing. My guess is that you did not have a moderate Christian background but rather it was forced on you (or heaven forbid pummeled into you) which would explain your strong swing in the other direction. Have you been face to face with a demon yet? What level of 'demon'? What are your experiences thus far with Satanic practices? Sorry for all the questions. I am just very interested in knowing about your direct experiences and choices.
Satan and talk of Satan and demons does not bother me because I do not fear it within myself or exteriorly -- though I am careful where I tread and have no desire to interact with such things. Christianity does have huge problems ranging from extremes to fear based beliefs. Some Christian churches (not all thankfully) generate almost hysterical fear instead of asking people to use common sense and learn self empowerment.
And of course, who you choose to hang out with is obviously up to you and no one could convince you otherwise or rush or impose anything upon you. You are learning as you have chosen. Some learning is nice -- some not so nice but All is still learning about the All. Though I will throw in a cautionary note, often people do not experience any major problems with the 'forces that be' (Christian or Satanist group) until they attempt to leave, which is one reason I prefer to avoid most groups. Though in the next breath I will tell you I belong to a magician's fraternity.
Btw I am a friend of Robert's doing a favour cause yes posting on forums takes time away from my practices. But still this is a valuable learning opportunity. Also, btw I am a magician who formally was Christian. I have not thrown out all my Christian beliefs...only those that do not match with my experiences thus far, which was a fair sized chunk but definitely not all. I see goodness in certain concepts held in Christianity.
One reason I like Robert's work so much is because it does push past dogma. Does Robert's work interest you? Have you read his material? Or did you stumble across this site via search engine - keyword search? I ask because Robert has had higher experiences and explains prarctices so a person can push past dogma and move into experience (his upcoming books will focus strongly on the higher practices), as well he has been toe to toe with demons from my personal observation. You might be interested in reading his articles, books and his question and answer section on this website to gain a better understanding of why this website and forums were created.
Best Wishes to you,
violetrose
QuoteYou sort of missed the point of my previous post a little bit. You have studied Satanistic material and literature. But it is still dogma if you have not actually fully experienced this first hand. People often do this. They swing from one extreme dogma to an opposite one. The only commonality is the extreme of the pendulum swing. My guess is that you did not have a moderate Christian background but rather it was forced on you (or heaven forbid pummeled into you) which would explain your strong swing in the other direction. Have you been face to face with a demon yet? What level of 'demon'? What are your experiences thus far with Satanic practices? Sorry for all the questions. I am just very interested in knowing about your direct experiences and choices.
I don't consider myself to have studied 'satanistic literature'. I've read things, like the Satanic bible, though.
I also consider myself to have fully experienced it first hand. And I'm not quite sure what you're talking about anyway when you say 'experienced it' but the 'Satanitic Literature' I have read doesn't really talk about things which I have to have experienced or not, if you know what I mean.
I had a moderate christian background or perhaps a less moderate christian background. I never went to church, not even on easter or christmas, and have only been to a church a couple to a few times in my entire life. My mother is what could be described as a very liberal christian, but more accuratley a new ager or agnostic, or just not very religious at all. I didn't really have a christian upbringing. Unless you consider being brought up in a judeao-christian society a christian upbringing, which is basically the entire world except for israel and islamic countries. But I was voluntarily a christian, at a very young age. And a new age god/angel beleiving/loving type person as well. I was also a muslim as well.
If by being face to face with a demon you mean literally as in being face to face to a physical manifestation, then no. On the other hand if you don't mean it like that then the answer is yes, high ranking demons as well, including intimate experience with a crown princess of hell.
Aryanknight,
I think you're using phrases such as:
"and I have trodden the right hand path, 'in its fullest'.
very lightly. Which is something it is better not to do.
Partaking of the inner mysteries of the RHP is not about reading books or understanding things in an intellectual way. Treading the RHP in it's fullest and to it's logical end is to become an adept. These Ones have conquered the laws of physics and time and space. They are karmaless. And they do exist--regardless of your assertions. Who do you think is teaching & mentoring those of us who are wed to this path???
You are certainly free to follow the path you choose. But I assert that you do not understand as much about the RHP as you believe you do.
Karmaless? I don't think so.
Anyway, if by treading it in its fullest you mean, reaching the 'higher consciousness' and being a adept and all of that then no, but I have trodden the right hand path as fully as anyone else has on this forum (except for perhaps people like robert bruce) so as much as you have.
Dear Aryan knight,
Thank you for sharing. I deeply appreciate you allowing me to know a little about yourself.
By experiences I mean mind connection, astral projection, phasing, second sight, etc. The things which allow you to directly experience the greater reality on your own. Ginny and Frank (their usernames in these forums) are good examples of a proficient phaser and astral projector. Experiences of course can even further build and broaden from this point.
I wish to say one last word about religion (how I feel from my perspective). And I do consider New Age a religion albeit a less structured one. There is something terribly wrong with any religion that considers its beliefs, idealism and aspirations more important than connecting, caring about, understanding and loving all others. Not that this has to be the case but all too often is. Besides, no one is perfect. No one has the perfect life. Always there are challenges that test our endurance and cause us to stumble and bring us to the razors edge. This is ultimately the reason I put religion in the back pocket and occassionally sit on it. :wink:
Besides, I sort of believe in that old adage that unless you've walked a thousand miles in another person's shoes you have no idea why they've made the choices they have. Heck may have made the same ones myself. You have made interesting choices Arayan. Wish there was more time to fully understand what led you to your choices. In the meantime, I wish you health and happiness and the very best of everything.
Take good care and Best Wishes,
violetrose
Dear Boydster,
I feel that karma is merely the second law of thermodynamics. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. By opposite it is meant the force applied comes back on you. As long as we act in this world or act upon this world and within this universe which holds to physical laws (like the second law of thermodynamics) karma is unavoidable. Though we may get a wee bit smarter about the type of karma we incure.
Best Wishes to you,
violetrose
Hello Violet Rose and Arayan Knight
I was raised a Christian and had it basically forced upon me. I have been baptized 5 times because I did things that showed psychic abilities. I am sure the last time my Mother would have held me under the Holy Water if it would have worked to remove those abilities.
I do not believe that Satanism or anything else is correct because it does not take in the whole picture. We are all struggling with just parts of what the All is about. I like the phrase God because it is how I was raised but I feel comfortable with any positive part of any religion.
I had an experience at 18 which showed me what side I was on but it does not mean I do not understand the other side. I do realize that if your nature is inclined towards the LHP then you will find the things that make it so you find your Path or where you want to be.
I do not really agree with anyone giving pep talks about any religion. I do agree with resources and information being shared. It is the real things that show us where we are at and what we are about.
I have always preferred the Judaic version of the devil and demons because it shows they are all parts of the plan of the All. They are the adversarial side to be striven against to better ourselves. The RHP is also something that is striven against by the LHP to show what it is about. One without the other to compare it to would be a great deal poorer.
Demons and devils do cause a lot of problems especially in people who had other lives as one thing and are trying to move the other way. Angels are less obtrusive because they are not as adversarial.
I would bet that you are not as much as Satanist as a Luciferian and that you do not do it through hate Arayan Knight. There is the difference the people who do anything and treat anyone else badly through hate do not make their choices for their path.
I have seen people change their paths in search for themselves. I always wish the people in philosophical arguments like this Happy Hunting! They are searching for themselves and what they are about no matter what Path they are on. I only get upset at people who try to harm, hurt or control others.
Nita
Quote from: violetrose
Dear Boydster,
I feel that karma is merely the second law of thermodynamics. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. By opposite it is meant the force applied comes back on you. As long as we act in this world or act upon this world and within this universe which holds to physical laws (like the second law of thermodynamics) karma is unavoidable. Though we may get a wee bit smarter about the type of karma we incure.
Best Wishes to you,
violetrose
I agree with your definition of karma. My use of the word "karmaless" was in the spirit of the old occult dispensations where it means "without negative or binding karma".
A saint cetainly creates motion in the akasha with each thought, emotion or action. But the nature of the impulses of one such as these is confined almost entirely to positive, integrative actions. Therefor the momentum which is built up, and the return current thereof consists almost entirely of blessings.
Somehow along the line it became common to use the phrase "karma" for bad karma but not good karma. But technically, the word is more generic in meaning.
Violet Rose, I appreciate your insight and the vibrations from your heart.
Quote from: aryanknight666Karmaless? I don't think so.
Anyway, if by treading it in its fullest you mean, reaching the 'higher consciousness' and being a adept and all of that then no, but I have trodden the right hand path as fully as anyone else has on this forum (except for perhaps people like robert bruce) so as much as you have.
REALLY!!
I guess it's funny that you and I have arrived at such distinctly different conclusions, considering that we have had the same experiences (as you assert).....
Actually, I think it's funny that you think you know anything about me. You couldn't have gotten it from reading my posts.
Dear boydster,
Never sweat when someone makes a judgment (correct or incorrect). It happens every single day whether we are aware of it or not. Actually, I prefer when someone tells me their judgment of me (that's just me). At least then I have an opportunity to provide more understanding about who I am or why I said or did something etc. Perhaps this is the opportunity which presents itself here?
Someone, (I am certain someone will eventually do this to me on these forums) will give me the chance to laugh at my own ego. It is actually a fun place the reach. Teasing oneself and laughing at ones own ego. Of course, I will very politely apologize to the other person prior to laughing at myself. :wink: So never be shy to give your judgment call on my ego.
Hugs,
violetrose
violetrose,
No worries!! I'm not upset or anything. I'm mostly just amused....
I, personally, doubt you are amused. :wink:
Would it help if I did this.... :lol:
Dear Boydster and Aryan Knight,
You two are sooooo much alike when it comes to giving little pokes to another it IS funny. :P (And they thought they had nothing in common. :wink: )
Best Wishes to Both of You,
Patricia
Quote from: NitaI suggest that everyone read the book A treatsie on White Magic by Alice Bailey and Djwhul Khul.
I concur! The Master DK books via Alice Bailey are the best I've seen. She has dozens of books. Often DK is long winded but there is invaluable information in each book. I'd also recommend A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, and the Esoteric Psychology series. Most of all "Ponder on This" is great to get a quick glimpse of the DK books. And don't forget the Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception by Max Heindel.
Paul
Hi All,
Why is it so necessary to choose a path of the extreme, whether it is RHP or LHP ?
Has anyone thought about making their own Path ? Perhaps walking a middle path that is less trodden would be preferable to any extreme.
Extremism is quite natural for us humans, it is how we are conditioned.
Why not forge your own Path, attaching to no-one else's Belief-System constructions ?
VioletRose, I enjoyed the clear thoughts presented in your posts here.
:P
Ditto Tayesin. I've thought about this a lot, & used to worry slighty about my 'failure to fit' either of the extremes. Perhaps sharing a sense of purpose & values with a clearly defined group is attractive to many (& to me also sometimes), but ultimately I like to do it my way, choosing what is right for me at this stage of my journey from the various different approaches. Maybe such an individualistic approach is really LHP in some way, but whatever.... :)
Quote from: TayesinWhy is it so necessary to choose a path of the extreme ...
Has anyone thought about making their own Path ?
So in other words you wish to not believe what the countless Adepts / Liberated ones teach about the universe, your bodies, etc? What the liberated teachers teach are techniques proven over 1000's of years that greatly improve one's bodies, one's own being, to reach liberation. In the same manner, one will reach better and quicker results at the gym if they learn proven exercises.
So yes indeed it is your choice to not believe and practice what those liberated teachers before us have already learned. It is called the scenic route, the long path. I chose the short path so that I may become liberated and help others.
Not to scare anyone, but they should know that the Anthropoid Apes chose the scenic route. Yes, the Anthropoid Apes were part of the human kingdom, but were held back at the last great period. Also remember that the Fallen Angels were part of the Angelic Kingdom, but were also held back.
Peace & Love,
Paul
Hi Paul,
Quote, "So in other words you wish to not believe what the countless Adepts / Liberated ones teach about the universe, your bodies, etc? What the liberated teachers teach are techniques proven over 1000's of years that greatly improve one's bodies, one's own being, to reach liberation. In the same manner, one will reach better and quicker results at the gym if they learn proven exercises."
I think we have discussed this last year. Yes, I choose not to Follow. I am a Pioneer. Without those adepts who originally pioneered the way, there wouldn't be a Way for others to follow.
If something works for me I use it, if not it goes in the scrap pile to be thrown out... no matter what Master or Adept has claimed it as truth.
I agree with your Gym analogy Paul, bit it is not always so. Sometimes you find a Gymnast with excellent natural skills that only need to be honed using the proven methods... after which they will not need to follow anymore.
This is what I have done over my 25+ years of Astral and higher experience. I used the proven paths first, till I reached the boundary of their scope in my teens, and from there I explored on my own.
For many years I have been working with the Guidance I met at age 7, and experinced Oneness and it's enlightening nature a few years ago now through many sessions of Kundalini raising.
What I don't like about the old ways Paul, is that to accept them also means to accept their limitations, and the path is extremely long, compared to my own. Besides, I do not seek Liberation from the Series of Incarnations I chose to experience on this world... I am happy to return again and continue with the work to be done in Earth's future. My choice as I see it.
Thanks for the opportunity to answer this question Paul.
Love Always.
:D
Quote from: TayesinHi Paul,
What I don't like about the old ways Paul, is that to accept them also means to accept their limitations, and the path is extremely long, compared to my own. Besides, I do not seek Liberation from the Series of Incarnations I chose to experience on this world... I am happy to return again and continue with the work to be done in Earth's future. My choice as I see it.
Thanks for the opportunity to answer this question Paul.
Love Always.
:D
That's unfortuneate. Anyone given the opportunity by being given birth into a lineage with spiritual knowledge has every obligation to take it as far as they possibly can. Every time someone attains a high state, they raise the energy of entire humanity... It is a horrible burden, but the knowledge you have now CAN BE LOST IN YOUR NEXT LIFETIME...
For me, that would be a complete waste...it takes a lot of work and a lot of practice...I can't imagine if I lost this knowledge in my next life. Win or lose, I'm certainly going to try my best.
:wink:
The way I see the left hand path is that it revolves quite a bit around the self. It does not deny or supress the self. The self and the ego are considered to exist and to be important. There is a controlled seflishness in the left hand path. The left hand path does not deny that man is simply another animal, not neccesarily any better then those who walk on all fours, and thus it does not deny the carnal nature of man and the carnal desires of man. Lust, hate and anger are not denied or supressed. Sexuality is not suppressed or denied and is rather indulged in. Sexuality is considered to be important. While the right hand path might deal with ascending energy through the crown chakra and becoming one with 'the all, the one and the all' or 'the source' and being absorbed into a huge energy void the left hand path considers sexual energy to be raw life force, and coiled at the base of the spine it is uncoiled, ascends to the crown chakra and godhead, personal godhead, is acheived.
With regards to magick, magick in the left hand path is used to acheive one's own ends, whatever they may be. The magician tries different techniqes and whatever works best for them then they put that to use, they try whatever they want and anything that they have found to bogus or useless to them they discard. This is chaos magick. There is not really any concept of 'black' magick and 'white magick', at least not in the popular perceptions of the words, nor is there any concept of 'good' or 'evil' and magick is not considered to come from any source or diety.
Does a left hand pather beleive in revenge and vengeance? Most certainly! That is why destructions rituals or 'black magick' is employed in the left hand path. The left hand path definatley involves a beleif in revenge and justice and a fullfillment of these beleifs.
The left hand path is also about wisdom, intelligence, strength, the individual, indulgence, free thought, free opinion, free choice, individualism. Death to the weak, victory to the strong. Weakness and stupidity are looked down on. Being a goat rather then a sheep of the herd mentality, or a wolf; adversary and enemy of the herd menality, predator of the sheep.
The right hand path is more about bowing down and worshipping, prostrating oneself before a certain image or diety, about denying the self and the existance and reality of carnal man and carnal desire, and the denial of sexuality, hatred, anger, lust, etc.
It's more about being a sheep and the herd mentality, accepting whatever you are told from this diety or leader as a truth and not questioning the truth or falsehood of any such statement. It's the 'inherent sin' attitude where the carnal or primitive man is considered evil as is knowledge and power, and we need to be innocent without any strong will so that we do not question whatever 'God' or whoever tells us.
It usually denies sexuality and lust, or the duality of male and female. Sexuality is considered irrevelant and instead abstinence from these sorts of things is encouraged. Rather then ascending the kundalini or sexual energy to acheive godhead, its about sacrificing the self and the ego or ascending energy through the crown chakra to become one with 'the all, the one and the all' or the source. It's not about acheiving Godhead or anything like that because then thats desire and power, which is considered evil. Instead you must sacrifice all of your natural and carnal desires, to try and get rid of the self so you can become one with some sort of a higher plane. With magick, its more about being not using magick for yourself or personal gain unless that personal gain is earnt from helping another person. Its like using magick for others or the 'good or betterment of mankind'. But, one man's pleasure is another man's pain, who's to say whats 'good' or 'evil' especially for mankind? . A right hand path magician thinks himself to be a 'white' magician and profusely refuses any sort of what they call 'black magick', any ties with a destruction ritual or revenge, or using magick to meet one's own ends.
A right hand pather usually carries the attatched stigma from something like christianity into magick and the occult and will only ever deal with an external being who talks about being an 'angel' or a part of the 'god consciousness' or something to that effect. The usually take a base idea from montheism or abrahamic religions with 'God' and the abrahamic concept of 'good and evil' and 'angels' and then try and evolve it into something so that they can lump all religions together and claim that they all conform to this idea. They will of course take out anything they don't like and keep anything that conforms to their idea of the aboslutely right religion, which is usually something like 'new age' or what they call 'spirituality' which is apprently something totally seperate from religions.
Quote from: kalratri
That's unfortuneate. Anyone given the opportunity by being given birth into a lineage with spiritual knowledge has every obligation to take it as far as they possibly can. Every time someone attains a high state, they raise the energy of entire humanity... It is a horrible burden, but the knowledge you have now CAN BE LOST IN YOUR NEXT LIFETIME...
For me, that would be a complete waste...it takes a lot of work and a lot of practice...I can't imagine if I lost this knowledge in my next life. Win or lose, I'm certainly going to try my best.
:wink:
Given birth ? I choose my incarnations here and elsewhere for my own purposes Kalratri. Yes there is responsibility, but not in the way you believe it to be.
I have had other incarnations here, where I have reached similar higher-self awareness and here I am again... it is never lost, only partially forgotten, and then easily Remembered. Do not forget we have already Ascended from other worlds prior to volunteering to Experience this Earth realm.
There is no win or lose. I have already chosen to return and continue my work here for the highest good of the Planet and all who dwell upon it. This I did with full awareness of the tasks involved in the next immediate incarnation.
All is not as most believe it to be, far from it in fact. Beliefs are confining and prevent you from having experience of anything outside the boundaries of the beliefs you have attached to Kalratri.
Release your attachment to belief structures and you will begin to see far more clearly what is and what isn't. Then you will come to know what you really are, and, why you are here.
There is never waste, only Experience and Remembering. All the rest is only Belief structures and as such are extremely fallible and confining.
Love Always. :D
What is the objection in the RHP to using magic for personal gain, if it doesn't involve harming others? Is it just because desire is considered inherently bad in itself?
As a preface dear Tayesin, please do not think I am scolding you or arguing. Under certain circumstances I am very critical. Down the road many students and disciples will read your statements. No hard feelings, just Love despite how you may see my words.
Quote from: TayesinYes, I choose not to Follow. I am a Pioneer. Without those adepts who originally pioneered the way, there wouldn't be a Way for others to follow.
...
I used the proven paths first, till I reached the boundary of their scope in my teens, and from there I explored on my own.
If I understand you correctly, you followed a proven path, but now you chose not to follow.
A good scientist, regardless if they want to be a rebel,
will always use experimental data from others. IMHO Tesla was one of the greatest scientists in all history.
Even Tesla regarded the experimental data from other scientists as priceless. Without that data / information / knowledge one would have to completely
start over from scratch.
Quote from: TayesinIf something works for me I use it, if not it goes in the scrap pile to be thrown out... no matter what Master or Adept has claimed it as truth.
I agree. That's the difference from a global teacher and a one-on-one teacher. If that one-on-one teacher truly is an Adept or at least 3rd degree Initiate than he or she will know by inner sight what your exact needs are.
That is an easy task for an Adept.Quote from: TayesinI agree with your Gym analogy Paul, bit it is not always so. Sometimes you find a Gymnast with excellent natural skills that only need to be honed using the proven methods... after which they will not need to follow anymore.
I partially agree.
Remember that in all creation there is always someone far above you in vibration and liberation.Do you not think it is wise to spend a week searching for one of the best teachers rather than spending a lifetime reinventing the wheel dear Tayesin? My friend, I have been called a rebel by many. But even I must admit that it is pointless to reinvent something. I personally prefer to use all previous experimental knowledge for my journey but not the interpretations. Yes, there are many teachers that I chose not to follow, but that is not the point. The point is that there are teachers that I follow. Personally I would never state to students and disciples on the path "I choose not to follow."
Yes there are many body builders who "think" they now have it all; i.e., that they no longer need to learn more.
Let's use a muscle builder as example. This muscle builder learns to build huge muscles. So is that the end of the road?
Does that mean he should stop following the path of others who are beyond? I would suggest that
there are people on earth who have learned to use Chi. Chi is that step beyond muscles. I know for fact that Chi Masters are many times stronger than any muscle man.
Quote from: TayesinWhat I don't like about the old ways Paul, is that to accept them also means to accept their limitations
What limitations might that be dear Tayesin? You've stated that you don't like their ways. So out of respect for those "true" teachers could you please provide a specific example? We should put forth some effort into finding the right teacher.
All true teachers offer exercises that go far beyond anyone on earth unless you are an Avatar.Quote from: Tayesinand the path is extremely long, compared to my own.
I completely 100% disagree with you. There are
always teachers far, far, far above you Tayesin. I do not mean to insult you but I find that statement extremely rebellious. Perhaps you have not looked hard enough for that teacher dear Tayesin. There are disciples listening to you Tayesin, hence the purpose of my post.
Quote from: TayesinBesides, I do not seek Liberation from the Series of Incarnations I chose to experience on this world... I am happy to return again and continue with the work to be done in Earth's future. My choice as I see it.
I am sure you mean that you seek to stay on this world while being liberated. If you truly mean what you stated, that you do not want liberation,
then that means you want to become part of the next fallen angels. I am certain you do not wish that.
An Adept is a liberated Soul who chooses to stay on the wheel of life for a while longer to help others. But note that
an Avatar is Liberated Tayesin. Also know that it is very rare for a Soul to chose to become an Avatar.
Again, no hard feelings, just Love.
Peace & Love,
Paul
QuoteWhy is it so necessary to choose a path of the extreme, whether it is RHP or LHP?
There are many teachers who do not teach these extremes you describe. All true teachers I have encountered teach a balance of the two paths,
Knowledge and Heart. Who here has put forth the effort to find these teachers?
Love & Peace,
Paul
QuoteA good scientist, regardless if they want to be a rebel, will always use experimental data from others. IMHO Tesla was one of the greatest scientists in all history.
Tesla was pretty amazing, well worth reading up on, although a lot of what's written about him sounds like science fiction (e.g. The Philadelphia Project.)
QuoteEven Tesla regarded the experimental data from other scientists as priceless. Without that data / information / knowledge one would have to completely start over from scratch.
"We see beyond because we stand on the shoulders of giants" and all that.
Quote from: SomeBloke"We see beyond because we stand on the shoulders of giants" and all that.
Thanks for that very cool and true quote SomeBloke. I did a google search and found the famous Isaac Newton quote,
If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants. :D
- Isaac NewtonPeace & Love,
Paul
Paul,
Thank you for taking the time to write a reply so well presented.
I truly do understand what you are saying to me my friend.
But I do not think you are understanding me, and I apologize for this weakness.. the difficulty to express to you so that you will see it clearly, without it first going through your own belief-system's filters.
I wrote that post without shrinking back for fear of ridicule for what I am, and for what I own about my-Self here. I apologize also if this offends your sense of tradition and foundation, I truly do.
I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else, but I cannot be defined by your or anyone else's opinions, beliefs and judgments, nor the many traditions of this world.
I am a square peg and cannot be fitted into round-belief-system-holes.
You said, "If I understand you correctly, you followed a proven path, but now you chose not to follow."
I took what worked and discarded the rest. Still do. Just because one path offers some good things does not imply that it must be doggedly stuck to all the way to the end of the path. How rigid would that be ? If it stops working for you, or you find a more effective way, do you then deny them and stay attached to the first one ? Is that real growth ?
You said, "If that one-on-one teacher truly is an Adept or at least 3rd degree Initiate than he or she will know by inner sight what your exact needs are. That is an easy task for an Adept. "
Yes, it is very easy Paul. And yes it is inner Sight, AND, communication with their Higher-Self.
You asked, "Do you not think it is wise to spend a week searching for one of the best teachers rather than spending a lifetime reinventing the wheel."
Spend half an hour with me Paul and you will Experience for yourself, your Higher-Self and your Guides. This is what I do. No wheel re-inventing here my friend. Perhaps we could say I am helping to bring in anti-grav cars because the wheel is no longer needed where we are going ? :wink:
You asked, "Does that mean he should stop following the path of others who are beyond?"
This question is reliant upon a perception of "others who are beyond", and exactly what person is making the distinction, and from what belief system base. There is a note of judgmentalism in your post Paul, as if you want to say, "Tayesin, you are not an Avatar or Adept", yet you cannot know what I am by these definitions. Nor what you truly are.
The big problem with this type of approach Paul, is, you have absolutely no concept of me and what i am, because you are looking through the windows of your current philosophy or belief-system. In this way you cannot see what is offered to you because it does not and cannot fit/compute with your view of the way it must be.
You asked, "What limitations might that be dear Tayesin? So out of respect for those "true" teachers could you please provide a specific example?"
Take Christianity for an example. It is a valid belief system with millions of adherents worldwide, yet it has boundaries. It stops shy of recognizing the truths that many of us here at the Pulse have experienced for themselves, AP, OOBE, etc. If I attach to that belief-system Paul, then I am restricted in my beliefs and possibilities that I can experience.
The same is true for all belief-systems, no matter what they are or how long they have been around. Take Tibetan Buddhism for an example. It was my preferred religion for a time. It allows for so much more than the restrictive Christian religions, yet, it takes a life-time through the old slow ways, if you are lucky, to reach your High-Self awareness and the Oneness called Nirvana. Since other ways can bring people to these awareness's much quicker, even this wonderful and traditional religion must have restrictions/boundaries.. because it is a philosophy/belief-system.
You said, "I completely 100% disagree with you. There are always teachers far, far, far above you Tayesin. I do not mean to insult you but I find that statement extremely rebellious. Perhaps you have not looked hard enough for that teacher dear Tayesin. There are disciples listening to you Tayesin, hence the purpose of my post."
It's okay to disagree. But again you are making a judgment about me and you have no real concept of me.
If you find my statement "extremely rebellious", perhaps you should look at why You are feeling that.
What Disciples are you speaking of Paul ? It is well and good that people seek in various places, this is how Seeds are Sown.
You said, "I am sure you mean that you seek to stay on this world while being liberated. If you truly mean what you stated, that you do not want liberation, then that means you want to become part of the next fallen angels. I am certain you do not wish that.
An Adept is a liberated Soul who chooses to stay on the wheel of life for a while longer to help others. But note that an Avatar is Liberated Tayesin. Also know that it is very rare for a Soul to chose to become an Avatar. "
I do not "seek" it Paul, I have already chosen the next incarnation to follow on my work after the demise of this body. Please do not be offended by this statement.
"Fallen Angels", this is your belief system talking again Paul. Please don't minimize me by your beliefs and expectations of what must be.
About teachers Paul...
In the mid to late 70's I had a brilliant teacher, a Rosicrucian (sp) women with clear ability and Sight. I learned to experience the spirit that I am, in clarity, because of this Lady. She taught me to hold no concepts about what must be, should be, or could be. And this I have faithfully continued to do... not because I believe it to be the better way, but because it has proven itself to be the best way for me... even though I have also tried other ways.
This teacher recognized something and immediately saw into the depths of me. Within minutes she had me lying on the floor visiting the Akasha, and a quick trip to one past life. I hold her dear to my heart as the one who first showed me it was Okay to be what I am.
For the past 9 years I have also had a Mentor. A 70 year old, 32nd Degree Rosicrucian ( or what ever the highest level is ) that is also my greatest supporter. To quote her from 1998, " You are already way beyond me and what I have experienced." Please don't see this as ego Paul, it is to show you that everything IS not how Beliefs say they must be.
In the end Paul, if what you are doing is working for you, then that is wonderful and I am happy for you.
Love always.
PS, When I was a Buddhist, I saw the Dalai Lama once in New Zealand. We looked into each others eyes and I felt the depth of that beings Compassion. He smiled into my eyes as we recognized each other.
Now that Man is what I call a Higher Being.
:D :D
Dear Tayesin,
Yes, thanks for the post. You can rest assured that I do not place any emotions in my conversations. So no, I am not offended. The reason for my post is to have your words clarified for the sake of others. That was a major point of my previous post. Regardless what you meant to say, it's your words that count here.
Perhaps the biggest misunderstanding we have is this. I always refer to the Lower Self unless otherwise stated. Although I understand that the Higher Self is part of the Lower Self. One's Higher Self is included when I state that it is best to follow the path of a Liberated one or teacher of higher vibration. In other words, by my language, following the Higher Self is indeed following the path of a teacher.
It is my belief that it is best for people to follow the paths as laid out by Liberated Souls. The path, as laid out by Liberated Souls, does indeed include following the Higher Self. But until one reaches direct communication with the Higher Self, then it is best to follow the teachings of another liberated teacher. I must caution that any inner voice must be well tested. The Desire / Astral body is one's self demons until it is developed and controlled. It will play the role of Higher Self or whatever it takes to remain in control.
I will reply to your comments in another post so that my main point is not watered down.
Peace & Love,
Paul
I will reply to those areas that we either misunderstand or disagree with each other. I will not comment on any of your personal statements. All other areas I see that we agree and have clarified.
First I would like to clarify some possible misunderstandings.
I have not stated that any belief system is 100% truth. I will remind you that the purpose of a spiritual teaching, a group, a path is to speed up spiritual development. I never stated that one would never outgrow a path. Again I'll state that the Higher Self is one's best teacher, IMHO. The teachings I follow teach this. Although I have never encountered a liberated being who is not part of a spiritual group whether it be on the physical plane, the astral, mental, the buddhic, or higher planes.Quote from: TayesinJust because one path offers some good things does not imply that it must be doggedly stuck to all the way to the end of the path.
I agree but
it also does not mean that we cannot search for a higher path or another teacher of higher vibration. This often happens early on in ones spiritual development. Christianity was my first path. I outgrew it and found another.
I do not need to reinvent a new system. I would much rather work with a group of spiritual teachers and disciples rather than do my own thing. I have all the freedom in the world being with a group of high vibration.
Quote from: TayesinYou asked, "Does that mean he should stop following the path of others who are beyond?" ... You seem to be saying, " Tayesin, you think you are beyond/higher than the adepts and avatars."
I am uncertain how to reply to this. I was not judging or attacking you. If you feel that I was, then please show me where I was. To state that there are beings higher in vibration than you is not a judgment dear Tayesin. It is a fact.
I know a person that is not even a 3rd degree Initiate that can vanish right before your eyes physically ... poof ... physical is gone ... poof ... physical is there, now across the room. Does that make my friend a better person? No. Does it add some credibility that he's more liberated than most on earth? Yes. Does that mean I suddenly trust everything he says? No. Trust comes with time. BTW, when I refer to a 3rd degree Initiate, I am not referring to any organization such as AMORC Rosicrucian, etc. It is in reference to self-mastery of the three lower vehicles; Mental, Desire / Astral, and Physical. Note that the Etheric body is part of the Physical world. A 3rd degree Initiate is liberated from the reincarnation cycle.
Quote from: TayesinThe big probem with this type of approach Paul, is, you have absolutely no concept of me and what i am, because you are looking through the windows of your current philosophy or belief-sytem. In this way you cannot see what is offered to you because it does not and cannot fit/compute with your view of the way it must be.
Perhaps you could be specific and less broad. What approach? You mean the approach of being part of group, working together, and treading a path as laid out by many Adepts? Also, could you please state where I said to the affect "the way it must be."
Quote from: TayesinYou asked, "What limitations might that be dear Tayesin? So out of respect for those "true" teachers could you please provide a specific example?"
Take christianity for an example. ... Take Tibetan Buddhism ... if you are lucky, to reach your High-Self awareness and the Oneness called Nirvana.
Dear Tayesin, did you see my words,
"true" teachers? I am confident that you believe there are paths of higher vibration than the two examples you used. I am not here to win a debate dear Tayesin, just as I am certain you are not. Therefore I am puzzled why you would use those two examples. Perhaps I should have offered an example of a higher teaching. As an example, please share your thoughts on limitations of the philosophy as taught by the Initiate Max Heindel. You may not be too aware of his specific teachings so I am not asking you to comment on them, unless you wish.
I think the point was that there are always higher teachings and no excuse not to be part of a group.Quote from: Tayesin"Fallen Angels", this your belief system talking again Paul. Please don't try to minimize me by your beliefs and expectations of what must be.
I see.
You do not believe that there are beings of the Angelic Kingdom who were held back. You do not believe in Fallen Angels and Demons? That is OK. I am certain you will know of their existence one day. As a note for you dear Tayesin and not a judgment, I will say this.
One would note that people who choose not to be part of a group, who teach to do your own thing, and who desire to continue reincarnating on the physical plane often are the ones who teach that there are no Fallen Angels. Scary thing since possession and influence from powerful negatively polarized beings are very real.
Quote from: TayesinFor the past 9 years I have also had a Mentor. A 70 year old, 32nd Degree Rosicrucian ( or what ever the highest level is ) that is also my greatest supporter. To qoute her from 1998, " You are aleady way beyond me and what I have experienced." Please don't see this as ego Paul, it is to show you that everything IS not how Beliefs say they must be.
I said that something "must be?" Could you be more specific and quote me? I've made statements about history and such. I've offered some definitions such as 3rd degree Initiate.
Did this person claim a title, 32nd degrees? It is a big thing amongst Adepts and Initiates of the light to Never claim a title. You said, "Please don't see this as ego Paul, it is to show you that everything IS not how Beliefs say they must be." What beliefs are you referring to Tayesin? The one of that 32nd degree lady? Again, where is this "must be" coming from? ... Not from my words.
Quote from: TayesinThe wording of your posts is filled with belief-system words and phrases. While this is fine for most people Paul, it is not sufficient for me, since I do not attach the same meanings to the words you are using. At the same time I try to use words that I hope most people can understand, that are different to your's.
What is wrong with a belief-system dear Tayesin? It means to believe in something. An Anti-belief system is based on chaos, rebellion, service to self, and dominates in a negatively polarized world.
Your words are the reason for these posts. My concern is that others who may read your posts might be encouraged to forget about groups and philosophies. I will state this,
the lower planes are more about Self. The higher planes are more about Others, the Group, Service To Others. Becoming part of a spiritual group is a good thing. There are always spiritual groups far beyond anyone on Earth. Some are on the material plane. Some are on the Etheric plane. Some are on planes far beyond the Mental planes. It is endless.
Avoiding all groups IMHO is a bad thing for positive spiritual development. I am not suggesting that you are trying to encourage anyone into anything. What you believe and do is your free will.
I will always offer you my hand for help out of Love dear Tayesin. I have zero desire to attempt any manipulation in your beliefs or way of being.
Rather, I am concerned with your words, any misunderstandings at Astral Pulse. It is my right to question you for further details or any misunderstandings.Love & Peace,
Paul
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your reply.
You said, "Again I'll state that the Higher Self is one's best teacher, IMHO. The teachings I follow teach this."
I agree totally Paul. The difference is this... I have experienced and merged with the Higher-Self that is Me, no one's teachings were followed to get to there with the exception of the working with Guides in order to awaken to this awareness. None of it was done by following anyone's belief system, it was my path, here & now.
You said, "I do not need to reinvent a new system. I would much rather work with a group of spiritual teachers and disciples rather than do my own thing."
This is the definitive statement from your post, Paul. This is your choice, not mine. And for as long you discuss/argue from the perceptions of your choice, we will continue to disagree on details.
I read the word "Liberated" in your posts and see that the word includes certain meanings relating to the Philosophy you choose to attach to. I understand it to mean free from the need to reincarnate here on the Earth plane, which I think is the meaning you are intending. Along with this, is the perception of the word saying that their was something that you needed to be freed from. If you were not confined and defined by some belief-system, and experienced what you are in the bigger picture, then what is there to be freed from ?
If Liberation means to choose your incarnations in full awareness when you know you do not have to reincarnate anymore, then yes, according to that particular definition, I am liberated, as I have awareness of choosing the lives I Intend to experience here and on other worlds.
The approach I meant is this..... I post from my experience only, it seems you post based on a philosophy/belief-system. Because of this, your posts to me are about trying to define me by the perceptions and expectations of that philosophy/belief-system. And my experience shows me that I cannot be defined by that, I am outside the loop of philosophy Paul, it is one hundred percent Experiential. No matter what you believe about that. Said lovingly Paul.
"The way it must be", were not your words, although they are implied by the philosophy you apply to this discussion. Your chosen philosophy is fine for you Paul, but because it is a philosophy it automatically takes for granted that things must be the way the philosophy states them to be. And this does not apply to every situation (or every Being incarnate here) that is available for us to experience... so again we reach it's boundaries.
Paul, you asked me for an example to illustrate that belief-systems have boundaries to them that prevent us from experiencing beyond that limit. I offered two such examples. I apologize if they were not what you wanted from me. Also, I have not read Max's work, I feel no need to do so, as I am already at the Higher-self awareness and about to step 'up' again to the next layer/level.
Some interesting times ahead for me my friend, LOL. 8)
You said, "I think the point was that there are always higher teachings and no excuse not to be part of a group."
I am not interested in man-written higher teachings Paul. I can experience for myself what I need to REMEMBER. We are not here to learn as little souls, we are here to Remember the huge and magnificent Beings that we already are, to know our-Self. My 'group'(if I have to use that word) exists in the layers above the Astral, and consists of the Beings who support my choices and tasks for my previous incarnatoins, this one and the next. Their numbers include, the Green Lady ( a large portion of the Gaia Entity), various alien races, the friends from many incarnations in the prior worlds, the angel Uriel, and of course I can't forget the Creative Awareness of this Universe. I am in good company Paul. :D
You said, "One would note that people who choose not to be part of a group, who teach to do your own thing, and who desire to continue reincarnating on the physical plane often are the ones who teach that there are no Fallen Angels."
Paul, I do not subscribe to the notion of Fallen as meaning that their was a state of grace which beings can 'fall' from. What I see is that these Beings made an Experiential Choice as part of their overall plan of experiences. For me there can be no value-based judgment applied to those choices, that can be defined as having fallen from grace. The words are laden with philosophy/belief-system value judgments, which may not apply in the bigger pictures.
About my use of the term "must be". The philosophical stand point you are using in this discussion brings with it a characteristic of "this is the way it is because those who have followed this path say it is this way". I am outside of that path Paul and cannot be defined by it's perceptions and beliefs.
You said, "What is wrong with a belief-system dear Tayesin? It means to believe in something. An Anti-belief system is based on chaos, rebellion, service to self, and dominates in a negatively polarized world.
Your words are the reason for these posts. My concern is that others who may read your posts might be encouraged to forget about groups and philosophies."
I think I have spoken about this so often now it is becoming a tad tired. A belief in Anti-belief is still a Belief. If we hold no beliefs about how things should be we are open to seeing more clearly what is really there because we are not filtering everything we experience and feel/think through the natural Filters of that belief-system.
Again, the words used have connotations to them that do not apply in the bigger pictures, even though they may apply to small segregated sections of experiencers.
Paul, is it your Soul's task to show unneeded concern from the basis of an attachment to a chosen belief-system/philosophy ? Or is it another part that requires you do this ?
What does it really matter if others are reading about how easy it really is to reach our higher-Self awareness, and that by choosing not to follow the old and tried paths we are freed to experience beyond them ? I see no higher-beings having a problem with this at all, in fact, I am being supported in this task.
The biggest difference between you and I Paul that I see in our posts, is I do not use a philosophy and you do. The biggest similarity is that we are great Beings incarnating here for our own purposes, the ones that we chose for ourselves. I am here in the world to continue my work of awakening others to their higher awareness. This work will be continued in the next incarnation, after the breakdown of what we have in the physical sense now and we are experiencing what we can call 5th density reality.
Like physics, the rules break down at the singularity.. so too does all philosophies and belief-systems. This is my point. We are stepping 'up' into higher frequencies and existence layers, and it is my task here to help as many as possible through this phase into clarity of them-Self. It is what I chose to be born here to do.
Thanks Paul. I do understand the need to clarify words and phrases used so that as many people as possible can come to understand the Simplicity of our Reality as Great Beings incarnate in this world.
Apologies for the length of this post.
Love Always.
:D
Yes, and thank you for the exchange dear Tayesin.
Quote from: TayesinI have experienced and merged with the Higher-Self that is Me
Truly I do not wish to comment on you per say.
I would prefer to keep this impersonal. I say this because great deals of your comments are about yourself. From where I come, spiritual groups teach disciples to keep self-attention to an absolute minimum.
Quote from: Tayesinno one's teachings were followed to get to there with the exception of the working with Guides in order to awaken to this awareness. None of it was done by following anyone's belief system, it was my path, here & now.
Did you not say yourself that Christianity got you to a certain distance? Regardless, I disagree with your conclusion. I believe everyone is affected by the teachings of the Adepts to some degree. This planet would have been destroyed without the aid of liberated ones including the Angelic Kingdom. So here can we can agree to disagree?
Quote from: TayesinYou said, "I do not need to reinvent a new system. I would much rather work with a group of spiritual teachers and disciples rather than do my own thing."
... This is your choice, not mine.
Well noted. Then I understand that you do not or wish not to associate with groups.
Quote from: TayesinI read the word "Liberated" in your posts and see that the word includes certain meanings relating to the Philosophy you choose to attach to. I understand it to mean free from the need to reincarnate here on the Earth plane ... If you were not confined and defined by some belief-system, and experienced what you are in the bigger picture, then what is there to be freed from ?
Dear Tayesin, there are laws that govern creation. Regardless if one chooses a belief system or anti-belief system, but it will not remove those laws in one's existence. For example, you cannot break the law of karma regardless if you believed 100% that you could.
Liberated means having the freedom to move beyond. Again, the law of karma binds people to the reincarnation cycle. Most Liberated people choose to raise their vibration and move beyond the three lower planes.
Quote from: TayesinThe approach I meant is this..... I post from my experience only, it seems you post based on a philosophy/belief-system.
Yes I agree this is one major difference between us. I really put forth an effort not to draw attention to myself. It is your right to believe that I know nothing of you intuitively, that I cannot do the things that you say you can do.
There are infinite ways to convey a message without speaking of ones accomplishments and abilities. It is the undeveloped Desire / Astral body that truly relishes the moment of expressing its power. It is the Desire body that shall fight to the death for power and a millennia of habits.Quote from: TayesinBecause of this, your posts to me are about trying to define me by the perceptions and expectations of that philosophy/belief-system.
Again dear Tayesin, please understand that my posts are not about you but rather the group. In this case the group are the people at Astral Pulse. Yes, I was guided to offer you and two others help, but that help also extends to others by shedding light on paths that have already been laid out by liberated people. It is the path that you offer to others that I am concerned with Tayesin-- not *you* on the path. I love you dear Tayesin, but I am not focused on one individual, rather the many. Perhaps in the future, but for now that focus or concentration is on the many. One could say that focus is on three people at astral pulse, but no it really isn't. The three simply were the initial attraction toward the group.
Quote from: TayesinYour chosen philosophy is fine for you Paul, but because it is a philosophy it automatically takes for granted that things must be the way the philosophy states them to be.
Then you do not understand philosophy and science dear Tayesin. Philosophy and science are not and never have claimed to be the end all be all. The idea behind science is to understand with best ability all that is observed. There is no demanding from the true heart of science, no ego. Perhaps some were hurt from false science though. Let's not allow those who abused science to taint the very idea of science, the heart of science. From the physical plane to the highest cosmic realms, science is found. There are laws built into the very existence of all things that cannot be broken. The Adepts to the highest Seraphim's understand this. They understand it and they use it. It is called science-- Physical science, Astral science, Mental science, and beyond.
Quote from: TayesinI am already at the Higher-self awareness and about to step 'up' again to the next layer/level. Some interesting times ahead for me my friend, LOL. 8)
Well good for you. Shine but always use positive caution my friend. I enjoy your positive attitude.
Quote from: TayesinYou said, "I think the point was that there are always higher teachings and no excuse not to be part of a group."
I am not interested in man-written higher teachings Paul.
As mentioned in previous post-- there are always teachings of a higher vibration and truth from the physical plane to the mental planes to the highest cosmic realms. As far as Max Heindel, Elder Brothers gave him the information.
Quote from: TayesinMy 'group'(if I have to use that word) exists in the layers above the Astral, and consists of the Beings who support my choices and tasks for my previous incarnatoins, this one and the next. Their numbers include, the Green Lady ( a large portion of the Gaia Entity), various alien races, the friends from many incarnations in the prior worlds, the angel Uriel, and of course I can't forget the Creative Awareness of this Universe. I am in good company Paul. :D
Well good for you again.
As a tool for you and others I wanted to say this. That before our OBE experiences affect others we should, out of respect for others, do our initial OBE tests. The first test is for the Etheric body. As an example one could have a friend in the physical that would place an object at a location and have their friend go there in the Etheric body. If the Etheric body is well developed then they will get it right every time, 100% accuracy, not 99%
The next test would include the Desire / Astral body. For this test, one only needs to find an OBE'er who is at the same or higher development. Such a person is found by focusing on such a person while out of body and going to that person. The two OBE'ers go to a city in the Astral world and find an object. When they enter their physical bodies, they call each other on the phone to see if they conceptually agree in detail about the astral object. The same goes for the Mental planes and so on.
Quote from: TayesinPaul, I do not subscribe to the notion of Fallen as meaning that their was a state of grace which beings can 'fall' from.
It is educational to view the Mental Akashic records of the Angelic Kingdoms past. This is accurately accomplished when one has truly mastered the three lower bodies. This was back when the earth was not physical but rather an Etheric planet. This history is recorded in books from authors such as Max Heindel. They had their peace period just as earth is about to enter its peace period in a few decades. Those who would have disrupted the peace period in any way were not allowed to continue their reincarnation on earth. When teachers speak of fallen angels they are referring to the fact that they were held back. For those who have developed bodies have the ability to see these cloaked fallen angels. They are around in great numbers, but very few who have Etheric and Astral sight can see them. It is our Higher Self and guides that protect us while out of body. But it is not as though they sit around watching us. They have a mission and their time is running out.
Quote from: TayesinIf we hold no beliefs about how things should be we are open to seeing more clearly what is really there because we are not filtering everything we experience and feel/think through the natural Filters of that belief-system.
A belief system is about being truthful, not about filters. I believe the filters you and others refer to are the experiences of the undeveloped Desire body. It is the undeveloped Desire body that filters. Rather the developed mental unit is a truth seeker and does not filter. Do you understand what I am saying?
Quote from: TayesinWhat does it really matter if others are reading about how easy it really is to reach our higher-Self awareness, and that by choosing not to follow the old and tried paths we are freed to experience beyond them?
There is a huge difference between reaching Higher Self
awareness and
Fusion / Born Again. It is my will to shed light on what the negative energies are attempting with their great force as their time comes to an end with the dawn of the 1000 years of peace. That the anti-belief systems, anti-group, desiring the dense planes of existence with reincarnation and lack of liberation is not following the light. Yes we have our free will and I respect that. That is one main reason why I do not wish to comment on anyone specifically. Do I not have the right to shed light on this topic? :)
Quote from: TayesinLike physics, the rules break down at the singularity.
One may view a far higher physics theory via a developed desire body with the assistance of the Higher Self by visiting the Halls of Learning in the Astral plane. Or better yet, for those who have reached true fusion with Higher Self, simply ask. The Higher Self knows the answer.
The accepted science community reached a material wall quite some time ago. Hence, they began a new idea as you touched upon.Love & Peace,
Paul
someone has to ask this question, so i'll be the messanger to kill
what are the symptoms of undeveloped desire body?
what are the symptoms of developed desire body?
i'll refrain from commenting
thank you
Quote from: pmlonline
1. Did you not say yourself that Christianity got you to a certain distance? Regardless, I disagree with your conclusion. I believe everyone is affected by the teachings of the Adepts to some degree. This planet would have been destroyed without the aid of liberated ones including the Angelic Kingdom. So here can we can agree to disagree?
2. Dear Tayesin, there are laws that govern creation. Regardless if one chooses a belief system or anti-belief system, but it will not remove those laws in one's existence. For example, you cannot break the law of karma regardless if you believed 100% that you could.
Liberated means having the freedom to move beyond. Again, the law of karma binds people to the reincarnation cycle. Most Liberated people choose to raise their vibration and move beyond the three lower planes.
3. Yes I agree this is one major difference between us. I really put forth an effort not to draw attention to myself. It is your right to believe that I know nothing of you intuitively, that I cannot do the things that you say you can do. There are infinite ways to convey a message without speaking of ones accomplishments and abilities. It is the undeveloped Desire / Astral body that truly relishes the moment of expressing its power. It is the Desire body that shall fight to the death for power and a millennia of habits.
4. Again dear Tayesin, please understand that my posts are not about you but rather the group. In this case the group are the people at Astral Pulse. Yes, I was guided to offer you and two others help, but that help also extends to others by shedding light on paths that have already been laid out by liberated people. It is the path that you offer to others that I am concerned with Tayesin-- not *you* on the path. I love you dear Tayesin, but I am not focused on one individual, rather the many. Perhaps in the future, but for now that focus or concentration is on the many. One could say that focus is on three people at astral pulse, but no it really isn't. The three simply were the initial attraction toward the group.
5. As mentioned in previous post-- there are always teachings of a higher vibration and truth from the physical plane to the mental planes to the highest cosmic realms. As far as Max Heindel, Elder Brothers gave him the information.
6. Well good for you again. As a tool for you and others I wanted to say this. That before our OBE experiences affect others we should, out of respect for others, do our initial OBE tests. The first test is for the Etheric body. As an example one could have a friend in the physical that would place an object at a location and have their friend go there in the Etheric body. If the Etheric body is well developed then they will get it right every time, 100% accuracy, not 99%
The next test would include the Desire / Astral body. For this test, one only needs to find an OBE'er who is at the same or higher development. Such a person is found by focusing on such a person while out of body and going to that person. The two OBE'ers go to a city in the Astral world and find an object. When they enter their physical bodies, they call each other on the phone to see if they conceptually agree in detail about the astral object. The same goes for the Mental planes and so on.
7. It is educational to view the Mental Akashic records of the Angelic Kingdoms past. This is accurately accomplished when one has truly mastered the three lower bodies. This was back when the earth was not physical but rather an Etheric planet. This history is recorded in books from authors such as Max Heindel. They had their peace period just as earth is about to enter its peace period in a few decades. Those who would have disrupted the peace period in any way were not allowed to continue their reincarnation on earth. When teachers speak of fallen angels they are referring to the fact that they were held back. For those who have developed bodies have the ability to see these cloaked fallen angels. They are around in great numbers, but very few who have Etheric and Astral sight can see them. It is our Higher Self and guides that protect us while out of body. But it is not as though they sit around watching us. They have a mission and their time is running out.
8. A belief system is about being truthful, not about filters. I believe the filters you and others refer to are the experiences of the undeveloped Desire body. It is the undeveloped Desire body that filters. Rather the developed mental unit is a truth seeker and does not filter. Do you understand what I am saying?
9. There is a huge difference between reaching Higher Self awareness and Fusion / Born Again. It is my will to shed light on what the negative energies are attempting with their great force as their time comes to an end with the dawn of the 1000 years of peace. That the anti-belief systems, anti-group, desiring the dense planes of existence with reincarnation and lack of liberation is not following the light. Yes we have our free will and I respect that. That is one main reason why I do not wish to comment on anyone specifically. Do I not have the right to shed light on this topic? :)
Love & Peace,
Paul
Hi Paul,
1. No, I didn't say Christianity got me part of the way. I learned from it that it was not the way for me.
I see the statement about earth being destroyed if not for the Angelic Kingdom as being a belief only, based on the word of another person.
Yes, agree to disagree will be fine.
2. My understanding of Karma is different to yours. I see it only as the mechanics of our choices in life, with no good or bad atachments to it. I see that we are the one's who choose what contracts we have and what we have manifest through the mechanics of karma.
Is is fine for others who are Liberated to choose to move beyond this world. I choose to return because of my personal interest and associations with the world's spirit.
3. Paul, I have not said I believe you know nothing of me Intuitively. I said you know nothing of Me, and this is very true, you do not, otherwise you would KNOW where I am coming from.
" that I cannot do the things that you say you can do."... dear me.
Paul, nowhere have I said or implied this to you. This is a statement from You, not from me.
"Speaking about accomplishments" is a biased Judgment about me Paul. What I do here is SHARE from my experience so that others can see how easy things really are if we stop complicating things all the time with our addictions to Beliefs.
4. Bears repeating......
"Again dear Tayesin, please understand that my posts are not about you but rather the group. In this case the group are the people at Astral Pulse. Yes, I was guided to offer you and two others help, but that help also extends to others by shedding light on paths that have already been laid out by liberated people. It is the path that you offer to others that I am concerned with Tayesin-- not *you* on the path. I love you dear Tayesin, but I am not focused on one individual, rather the many. Perhaps in the future, but for now that focus or concentration is on the many. One could say that focus is on three people at astral pulse, but no it really isn't. The three simply were the initial attraction toward the group."
I felt it when you joined AP, Paul. And I know what is behind it and why. The disinformation is a dead give-away.
Thank you for affirming what I knew.
5. I agree with your initial statement. My point always is, why go through those avenues when you can experience and know clarity for yourself much quicker using different methods to the ones you mentioned ?
6. I see this as unnecessary Paul, all of it. By all means question your reality if needed, and we do know, if we are Honest with ourself. Again, my other point has always been that if you hold no ideas, expectations, beliefs, or other Attachments there is no impediment to your Clarity, as you can observe and interact with what is there. Nothing else will be there because you hold a Clear Intent, and no baggage about any of it.
7. I see there are Beings who chose a certain path to experience. Nothing more and certainly not as fallen angels. I see that all around us now is the Darkness. I do not see it as opposed to everything good. I see it as the other half of this creation in the duality layers. And once we are free from our blind attachments to Beliefs we can move on to working with the darkness within in order to balance out these 'apparent' opposites.
Also, I see no point in using the Akasha for history lessons when we are here making the future.
By all means see what the Akasha has to offer you in the way of your growth, because that is what we are all initially here for in the first place... to experience this dense duality layer and again Ascend from a world so that we may choose what world we intend to experience next.
8. Honesty is about being truthfull.
A belief system is something you CHOOSE TO ATTACH TO, to make sense of the world you are in and to alleviate the need to be part of something bigger.
Honesty is an ACT. It is what we choose to do.
Beliefs are something we use to navigate this experience until we are cleared of the need to use them. When attached to a belief system, we automatically filter any experience through the beliefs to have them homogenised with the chosen belief about it.
9. again.. "There is a huge difference between reaching Higher Self
awareness and
Fusion / Born Again. It is my will to shed light on what the negative energies are attempting with their great force as their time comes to an end with the dawn of the 1000 years of peace. That the anti-belief systems, anti-group, desiring the dense planes of existence with reincarnation and lack of liberation is not following the light. Yes we have our free will and I respect that. That is one main reason why I do not wish to comment on anyone specifically. Do I not have the right to shed light on this topic? "
Yes Paul, there is a Vast difference between contacting and merging/being that Higher-Self in the world. Is is not an easy path to walk despite the inappropriate beliefs about it being blissful.. especially in this western culture, as so many people would assume.
"That the anti-belief systems, anti-group, desiring the dense planes of existence with reincarnation and lack of liberation is not following the light."
This is only an opinion. It is based on your own beliefs about it. It is only true for You, and those who believe as you do. It has no place in reality except for those who want to believe it.
You have as much right to post what you like as anyone else Paul.
Lastly, my postings are always about the Self. Not the selfish. The self I refer to always is the Higher-Self. It is what we are, except most people are not aware of it in themselves. Even fewer have direct knowledge or personal experience of it as a reality. It is the the "Self" in "Know Thyself".
My task here is to share that with people, as simply as I can because the reality is Simple.
So the question begs to be asked here, what 'team' is one on who would try to stop the simple sharing of effective methods to experience that Self and Awaken ?
Thank You for more than you know Paul. :wink:
I think I am done with this topic now.
Dear daem0n,
The symptoms of an undeveloped desire body are desire for emotions, desire to express power & achievements, desire for excitement, ambition, focus on self, desiring the flesh, etc.
The "desiring of flesh" usually reflects in the desire to continually reincarnate in the flesh. Often this is a strong indicator that the Shim is being influenced by an external force. Examples of some possibilities of external forces may be mental bodies or negative beings.
The symptoms of a developed desire body are desire to reflect spiritual Love, humbleness, selflessness, calmness, lack of ambition, desire to help others, etc.
Peace & Love,
Paul