Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Bhikku on March 13, 2002, 12:27:30
Post by: Bhikku on March 13, 2002, 12:27:30
I hear what your saying brother. It is going to come down to facing yourself in the end, no one else. It will be your choice of where you want to go after this life, and it is sad to know that some will choose the lesser light. As far as the Christian bashing goes, I have never looked down upon anyones beliefs, no matter how far removed they were from my own. I just think that the attitide that the Cristian church has towards those who do not participate in their religion is very harsh, therefore making folks take an "offensive defense" -if you will, towards Christianity. The message I get from the Christian church is "No matter what you believe in, if it's not what we beleive in, your going to hell. End of story" Even you participating in this website discussion, and the practices it realates, would be looked down upon by your holy men. It just seems too harsh a standpoint for something with so little backup. Just my 2 cents though.
"Look within, thou art the Budda"
"Look within, thou art the Budda"
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 13, 2002, 14:21:43
Post by: Adrian on March 13, 2002, 14:21:43
Greetings!
Yes indeed, although it is correct course of action to call upon the sacred name(s) of "Jesus", this has little to do with "christianity" as a popular religion. The the original Ancient Hebrew name is "Yod, Heh, Shin, Vavh, Heh", the "Shin" being inserted in the sacred "Tetragrammaton" to form the sacred "Pentagrammaton". "Shin" looks like three small flames in Ancient Hebrew, and represents the flame of Divinity, sometimes called "The Holy Spirit", "Ruach Elohim", "Chi", "Ki", "Prana", "Kundalini" and many other such names. Anyone who would seek to be a saviour unto themselves, must be able to unite with the Divinity by way of the "Holy Spirit" or "Ruach Elohim". The Pentagrammaton came to be pronounced "Yeh-hah-shu-ah", which became "Joshua", and then in Greek "Yay-su" and finally arrived in English as "Jesus",(but which is effectively a title, not a person, and which anyone can come to hold), and subsequently, in an almost totally unrecognisable form the basis of the bible and christianity thanks in no small part to King James!
But then of course there was "Christ" who was the great Master (of christianity), just as Buddha and Hermes (Trismegistus) were also great Adepts among several others.
The point I am making is that it would seem that "christianity" is terribly confused, and equally it seems to me that the christian church has no real comprehension of the Ancient Hebrew origins of these cosmic factors. They glibly speak of Jesus Christ, Heaven and Hell, and as has been pointed out, the dogma of the bible, which they compell everyone to believe in, for fear of being sent immediately after death to some dark spiritual plane.
I am not judging christianity. Christians have an absolute God given right to believe in whatever they like to believe in, and which suits their life, and all I would humbly and sincerely ask in return is that christianity does not judge me.
As for rituals and excorcisms for the fighting of demons, negs etc., calling upon the sacred names of "God" as the "Tetragrammaton" and in the sacred name of "Jesus" i.e. the "Pentagrammaton", is very fine indeed, but again, it is nothing really to do with christianity.
I hope this adds another perspective at least to this debate
Kind regards,
Adrian.
Yes indeed, although it is correct course of action to call upon the sacred name(s) of "Jesus", this has little to do with "christianity" as a popular religion. The the original Ancient Hebrew name is "Yod, Heh, Shin, Vavh, Heh", the "Shin" being inserted in the sacred "Tetragrammaton" to form the sacred "Pentagrammaton". "Shin" looks like three small flames in Ancient Hebrew, and represents the flame of Divinity, sometimes called "The Holy Spirit", "Ruach Elohim", "Chi", "Ki", "Prana", "Kundalini" and many other such names. Anyone who would seek to be a saviour unto themselves, must be able to unite with the Divinity by way of the "Holy Spirit" or "Ruach Elohim". The Pentagrammaton came to be pronounced "Yeh-hah-shu-ah", which became "Joshua", and then in Greek "Yay-su" and finally arrived in English as "Jesus",(but which is effectively a title, not a person, and which anyone can come to hold), and subsequently, in an almost totally unrecognisable form the basis of the bible and christianity thanks in no small part to King James!
But then of course there was "Christ" who was the great Master (of christianity), just as Buddha and Hermes (Trismegistus) were also great Adepts among several others.
The point I am making is that it would seem that "christianity" is terribly confused, and equally it seems to me that the christian church has no real comprehension of the Ancient Hebrew origins of these cosmic factors. They glibly speak of Jesus Christ, Heaven and Hell, and as has been pointed out, the dogma of the bible, which they compell everyone to believe in, for fear of being sent immediately after death to some dark spiritual plane.
I am not judging christianity. Christians have an absolute God given right to believe in whatever they like to believe in, and which suits their life, and all I would humbly and sincerely ask in return is that christianity does not judge me.
As for rituals and excorcisms for the fighting of demons, negs etc., calling upon the sacred names of "God" as the "Tetragrammaton" and in the sacred name of "Jesus" i.e. the "Pentagrammaton", is very fine indeed, but again, it is nothing really to do with christianity.
I hope this adds another perspective at least to this debate
Kind regards,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 13, 2002, 14:38:31
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 13, 2002, 14:38:31
Bikku- thanks, but I must tell you that there are no "holy men" in my church. I am a Latter-Day Saint, thus we have no paid clergy. We do, of course, have leaders--but every worthy male recieves the priesthood. Each week in church the members themselves, men and women, speak to the congregation...needless to say this fosters a true learning experience.
Adrian- it's interesting you bring up the name Elohim... that is the plural for "god" in Hebrew, thus GODS. As a Latter-Day Saint, we don't believe there is one God, well we do...there is one God for us, or at least we say this to keep things simple, but really there are many Gods...in fact we believe that every person may become like God...that is why there was a council of Gods to decide about the organization of this world...
I think it's important to learn about what we as LDS believe because we are like NO other Christian faith...other Christian churches have only begun to accept the truth while, I believe, as a LDS Christian we accept all truth.
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Adrian- it's interesting you bring up the name Elohim... that is the plural for "god" in Hebrew, thus GODS. As a Latter-Day Saint, we don't believe there is one God, well we do...there is one God for us, or at least we say this to keep things simple, but really there are many Gods...in fact we believe that every person may become like God...that is why there was a council of Gods to decide about the organization of this world...
I think it's important to learn about what we as LDS believe because we are like NO other Christian faith...other Christian churches have only begun to accept the truth while, I believe, as a LDS Christian we accept all truth.
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 13, 2002, 15:17:35
Post by: Adrian on March 13, 2002, 15:17:35
Greetings Daniel!
Well I do endeavour to familiarise myself at very least with as many popular beliefs as possible, because I do not like to formulate opinions from a standpoint of ignorance.
But at the same time, I do not subscribe to, and could never, ever be swayed towards any "packaged belief system" or "religion". The only spiritual truth for me, is my own spiritual truth as discovered, formulated and interpreted by myself, from my own spiritual experiences, and spiritual knowledge acquired on my ever ongoing path.
I don't know much about LDS, but I would admit that you do seem more open minded and receptive to universal realities than many christian organisations. It is still a packaged belief system though is it not? But I totally respect your right to follow that path - the choice is yours and yours alone.
Kind regards,
Adrian.
Well I do endeavour to familiarise myself at very least with as many popular beliefs as possible, because I do not like to formulate opinions from a standpoint of ignorance.
But at the same time, I do not subscribe to, and could never, ever be swayed towards any "packaged belief system" or "religion". The only spiritual truth for me, is my own spiritual truth as discovered, formulated and interpreted by myself, from my own spiritual experiences, and spiritual knowledge acquired on my ever ongoing path.
I don't know much about LDS, but I would admit that you do seem more open minded and receptive to universal realities than many christian organisations. It is still a packaged belief system though is it not? But I totally respect your right to follow that path - the choice is yours and yours alone.
Kind regards,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Bhikku on March 13, 2002, 15:25:40
Post by: Bhikku on March 13, 2002, 15:25:40
"The only spiritual truth for me, is my own spiritual truth as discovered, formulated and interpreted by myself, from my own spiritual experiences, and spiritual knowledge acquired on my ever ongoing path."
Couldn't have been said better. :)
"Look within, thou art the Budda"
Couldn't have been said better. :)
"Look within, thou art the Budda"
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 14, 2002, 01:25:52
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 14, 2002, 01:25:52
Where to start? Well, let me say this first: I agree with you to a point. I also believe that, when it's all said and done, it's the individual, and his/her experiences and desires that lead to exaltation (my word for the ultimate enlightenment, perfection) but I also believe that Christ is the Son of God...the only half mortal, half God that ever lived on the face of this planet. This is where we differ because I don't think either of you believe this.
Since I believe in the divinity of Christ, I also believe in the divinity of the organization that he designed while on the earth...namely an institution comprised of a prophet (which He was) and 12 Apostles. I believe that after He ascended to the presence of the Father (which was after he ministered to those spirits in lower realms/planes and came back to show the Apostles that He was indeed still alive and he ate with them to prove He was restored to a physical body-although one very different than we have right now as mortals)- so after he ascended to the Father and after the Apostles were all killed, then things went wrong. The truth and authority he had bestowed on the Apostles and other disciples was lost...there was an apostasy...and we are all familiar with what Christianity became, and still is for the most part.
As Latter-Day Saints we believe Joseph Smith, at the age of fourteen, prayed to know what the truth was. As he prayed he felt a deep, dark presence and he thought he was going to be destroyed...and just as he began to give up all hope suddenly he saw a pillar of light, beyond description, and everything around him became as if it were luminous and transparent, the whole forest itself seemed to vibrate and became gloriously bright, as if the nature of all the matter in the vicinity had somehow changed. Then he saw two personages, bathed in a light like none he had ever seen, and soon they were just above him. One spake saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear Him..." And then the other spoke and told young Joseph not to join any church, for they all had wonderful things on their lips, but their hearts were far from God.
This simple experience, which many scorn, is, in my humble opinion, one of the greatest pieces of news ever to be told. At the age of fourteen Joseph, in a very intolerant community, told his family and then others what had occured. He was spat upon and ridiculed, but he never took back what he said happened that night. He died defending what he had experienced.
Smith taught many principles: that spirit is matter, but of a more subtle type. He told people that what we are would blow them away, and it did. He said, for instance, that one could leave his or her body and then leave that body and be a "point of light, capable of seeing in all directions." Things like this led many to believe he was crazy. More importantly he taught that all men and women are children of God, part of a divine source...and that "a man is saved only so fast as he gains wisdom" and "the glory of God is intelligence". Such doctrine was deemed radical and the Saints were driven and murdered, until they sought refuge in the then swamps of Salt Lake City.
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, only to explain where we are coming from. We, as Christians, are not accepted in the Christian community. Other Christians say "our" Jesus isn't their Jesus...which, in effect, is true...for they limit themselves to a point of view so narrow as to choke the truth and love and light out of what Christ really stands for.
whyprophets.com is a wonderful website to learn more about the LDS faith.
Anyway, peace!!!
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Since I believe in the divinity of Christ, I also believe in the divinity of the organization that he designed while on the earth...namely an institution comprised of a prophet (which He was) and 12 Apostles. I believe that after He ascended to the presence of the Father (which was after he ministered to those spirits in lower realms/planes and came back to show the Apostles that He was indeed still alive and he ate with them to prove He was restored to a physical body-although one very different than we have right now as mortals)- so after he ascended to the Father and after the Apostles were all killed, then things went wrong. The truth and authority he had bestowed on the Apostles and other disciples was lost...there was an apostasy...and we are all familiar with what Christianity became, and still is for the most part.
As Latter-Day Saints we believe Joseph Smith, at the age of fourteen, prayed to know what the truth was. As he prayed he felt a deep, dark presence and he thought he was going to be destroyed...and just as he began to give up all hope suddenly he saw a pillar of light, beyond description, and everything around him became as if it were luminous and transparent, the whole forest itself seemed to vibrate and became gloriously bright, as if the nature of all the matter in the vicinity had somehow changed. Then he saw two personages, bathed in a light like none he had ever seen, and soon they were just above him. One spake saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear Him..." And then the other spoke and told young Joseph not to join any church, for they all had wonderful things on their lips, but their hearts were far from God.
This simple experience, which many scorn, is, in my humble opinion, one of the greatest pieces of news ever to be told. At the age of fourteen Joseph, in a very intolerant community, told his family and then others what had occured. He was spat upon and ridiculed, but he never took back what he said happened that night. He died defending what he had experienced.
Smith taught many principles: that spirit is matter, but of a more subtle type. He told people that what we are would blow them away, and it did. He said, for instance, that one could leave his or her body and then leave that body and be a "point of light, capable of seeing in all directions." Things like this led many to believe he was crazy. More importantly he taught that all men and women are children of God, part of a divine source...and that "a man is saved only so fast as he gains wisdom" and "the glory of God is intelligence". Such doctrine was deemed radical and the Saints were driven and murdered, until they sought refuge in the then swamps of Salt Lake City.
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, only to explain where we are coming from. We, as Christians, are not accepted in the Christian community. Other Christians say "our" Jesus isn't their Jesus...which, in effect, is true...for they limit themselves to a point of view so narrow as to choke the truth and love and light out of what Christ really stands for.
whyprophets.com is a wonderful website to learn more about the LDS faith.
Anyway, peace!!!
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Mobius on March 14, 2002, 03:32:45
Post by: Mobius on March 14, 2002, 03:32:45
Hi all, heavy going ons in here.Adrian you thought stealer!
Mate, its what I believe in all over.
If you need some one to tell you what to think & do, how it was & is,
you are indeed one of the sheep & not a shepard.
If you need to write reams of hypocritical material or go around
knocking on peoples doors to tell them THIS is the word, it is you
who needs saving.
All the best on your journeys.
Mobius
Mate, its what I believe in all over.
If you need some one to tell you what to think & do, how it was & is,
you are indeed one of the sheep & not a shepard.
If you need to write reams of hypocritical material or go around
knocking on peoples doors to tell them THIS is the word, it is you
who needs saving.
All the best on your journeys.
Mobius
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Joe on March 14, 2002, 07:40:16
Post by: Joe on March 14, 2002, 07:40:16
G'day All,
Mobius - not sure if you meant Adrian, Daniel, or LDS in general?. I don't think Adrian is LDS...
I (like others) thought I'd chime in with 2c on the belief system discussion. I have to say that I feel people generally over-simplify and misconstrue religion, especially Christianity. It is vogue in Western postmodernism to shun heritage beliefs, while pursuing exotic or novel belief systems as if they were any better. Every religion has a core of truth, surrounded by a thick slab of ritual, dogma and human tradition. The trouble with modern Christianity is that the heart of simple and powerful truth was lost in centuries of Patrician and Dark Ages corruption and lost ways, and has never fully revived - today we are left with a shell of moral teaching without the spiritual power that gives it life.
I think we make a mistake though, in isolating a "fashionable" Jesus from "unfashionable" tradition - he surely must have said *some*, if not much, of what is in the Gospels. In addition, many of the Christian church fathers were *extremely* adept at spiritual practices, ie Francis of Assisi in Samadhi, Jean Vianney and entity warfare, and many many others. I would firmly disagree that Christianity has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Jesus' name, or that none of it is relevant to today's "enlightened" thinking population. The heart of Christ's teachings and His example are very powerful - we just need to dig a little further to find the core of truth and spiritual depth... And keep that baby, minus the bathwater. This applies equally to all religions - Buddhism, Hinduism, etc (although not sure about Islam - some of the things that came out of Mohammed's mouth are scary)
My best to all.
Edited by - joe on 14 March 2002 14:48:03
Mobius - not sure if you meant Adrian, Daniel, or LDS in general?. I don't think Adrian is LDS...
I (like others) thought I'd chime in with 2c on the belief system discussion. I have to say that I feel people generally over-simplify and misconstrue religion, especially Christianity. It is vogue in Western postmodernism to shun heritage beliefs, while pursuing exotic or novel belief systems as if they were any better. Every religion has a core of truth, surrounded by a thick slab of ritual, dogma and human tradition. The trouble with modern Christianity is that the heart of simple and powerful truth was lost in centuries of Patrician and Dark Ages corruption and lost ways, and has never fully revived - today we are left with a shell of moral teaching without the spiritual power that gives it life.
I think we make a mistake though, in isolating a "fashionable" Jesus from "unfashionable" tradition - he surely must have said *some*, if not much, of what is in the Gospels. In addition, many of the Christian church fathers were *extremely* adept at spiritual practices, ie Francis of Assisi in Samadhi, Jean Vianney and entity warfare, and many many others. I would firmly disagree that Christianity has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Jesus' name, or that none of it is relevant to today's "enlightened" thinking population. The heart of Christ's teachings and His example are very powerful - we just need to dig a little further to find the core of truth and spiritual depth... And keep that baby, minus the bathwater. This applies equally to all religions - Buddhism, Hinduism, etc (although not sure about Islam - some of the things that came out of Mohammed's mouth are scary)
My best to all.
Edited by - joe on 14 March 2002 14:48:03
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: andy on March 14, 2002, 08:41:44
Post by: andy on March 14, 2002, 08:41:44
I too agree with Adrin.
My intutive side told me at an early age not to subscribe to anything I had a hard time believing.I never really understood at that age 7ish why christianity didnt hit home with me.The first thing that I did realize around the age of 12 however was that upon being told that I would go to hell should I not choose to follow christ was this:
God & street gangs follow the same rules," Fear and Obey or Pay".After studying history I was fast to realize that christianity was in fact the largest gang that ever existed and were far more ruthless than any street gang around today.
Now,im only sharing my personal deterent.Not bashing,if taken that way I apoligize! In fact I am always curious about what people think on this subject and have never recieved a decent response on the matter.I have noted that a lot of the christians that i've know came from big christain familys.What a child will believe,imagine what would have happend had our parents never told us that Santa Cluas was'nt real?Would the bible be as big today if it were not forced upon people in the past?
Opposed to my past of disscarding the bibles theroy I now firmly believe that a bunch of of o.b.ers were to be credited for what would become the basis of the book.Thats my take.However I know little about the bible and upon getting Daniels view of things have to say im approching it with a more open mind in the sense of trying to understand rather than building up my defense against it.
BTW,last night I dreamed that I was looking up the LDS web site provided by daniel else where.[I plan to check it out this weekend.]
I am in know way saying im right and the christians are wrong,I believe no one person will ever have all the facts/truth.This however a very interesting subject and so long as everyone keeps an open mind im seeing better potencial for understanding on both side.
Much peace,Andy (:
My intutive side told me at an early age not to subscribe to anything I had a hard time believing.I never really understood at that age 7ish why christianity didnt hit home with me.The first thing that I did realize around the age of 12 however was that upon being told that I would go to hell should I not choose to follow christ was this:
God & street gangs follow the same rules," Fear and Obey or Pay".After studying history I was fast to realize that christianity was in fact the largest gang that ever existed and were far more ruthless than any street gang around today.
Now,im only sharing my personal deterent.Not bashing,if taken that way I apoligize! In fact I am always curious about what people think on this subject and have never recieved a decent response on the matter.I have noted that a lot of the christians that i've know came from big christain familys.What a child will believe,imagine what would have happend had our parents never told us that Santa Cluas was'nt real?Would the bible be as big today if it were not forced upon people in the past?
Opposed to my past of disscarding the bibles theroy I now firmly believe that a bunch of of o.b.ers were to be credited for what would become the basis of the book.Thats my take.However I know little about the bible and upon getting Daniels view of things have to say im approching it with a more open mind in the sense of trying to understand rather than building up my defense against it.
BTW,last night I dreamed that I was looking up the LDS web site provided by daniel else where.[I plan to check it out this weekend.]
I am in know way saying im right and the christians are wrong,I believe no one person will ever have all the facts/truth.This however a very interesting subject and so long as everyone keeps an open mind im seeing better potencial for understanding on both side.
Much peace,Andy (:
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 14, 2002, 11:37:05
Post by: Adrian on March 14, 2002, 11:37:05
Greetings Andy and everyone!
Andy, Yes, I have to agree with you on this.
I rejected christianity at the age of 7 years old also - it just made no sense at all to me, and as I was also in interested in astronomy, astrophysics and evolution, it made even less sense to me. But above all of that, I intuitively *knew* that I *had* to lead my life in discovery of my *own* Spiritual truth, and that is more or less what I have done ever since.
One thing that I am extremely unhappy about is that in Britain, schools compulsorily teach christianity as if it is an incontrovertible fact, rather than part of middle eastern history and geography. Children are taught that the bible is absolutely beyond question, and that all it contains is factual rather than open to historical and philosophical interpretation. Anyone child who dares dispute these teachings is treated very adversly. I know, because, at the age of 7 years, I openly stated to my religious education teacher, who also happened to be the village Church of England Vicar, that I could not accept what was being taught as fact. That caused a real storm I can tell you
But this is a serious situation - children are impressionable, and look to their teachers and parents for the absolute truth in all things. Children are being seriously misled at best and for what - in an effort to keep the christian church and religion alive no doubt.
Fortunately, my three sons aged 11, 10 and nearly 9 years, have also totally rejected christianity of their own accord. I have not sought to influence them in any way whatsoever, because, as I did at their ages, they also study such things as the big bang theory, evolution etc., (and even carry books on these subjects to read in the car on the way to school), and can see the religious teachings for what they are. They dare not say anything at school however - the head teacher is a devout practicing christian methodist, and would not approve of such dissent. My eldest boy is already following a high spiritual path, and follows Astral projection and many other spiritual possibilities.
But what sort of educational system seeks to deny a child the right to their own spiritual path at such a very young and highly impressionable age - a path they will be following throughout this incarnation, and throughout all future incarnations?
Children should always be taught the facts and facts alone, and never be subjected to such religious dogma. They should be encouraged to discover their own truths about who God (i.e. The Divine, The One) as the creator and master of the universe and his heirrarchy really are, and their fundamental cosmic realities in this multi-dimensional, spiritual universe we are priveledged to be an integral part of, and of all other beings of all types on *all* planes and dimensions of existence everywhere and everywhen.
Daniel: I respect your faith and dedication to LDS, notwithstanding the fact I don't know much about your religion. You are clearly very sincere in your beliefs, and LDS does seem somewhat more enlightened and spiritually aware than many religions. I don't know who Joseph Smith was, but clearly he was a great person, and with many characteristics of the great spiritual leaders, and was apparently, like some of them was prepared to die to convey his message. But let me ask you this question - if you have, or will have children - will you teach them that LDS is THE only way and bring them up accordingly, or will you present them with the facts about ALL possible spiritual paths, and let them determine which spiritual path is right for them?
Best regards,
Adrian.
Andy, Yes, I have to agree with you on this.
I rejected christianity at the age of 7 years old also - it just made no sense at all to me, and as I was also in interested in astronomy, astrophysics and evolution, it made even less sense to me. But above all of that, I intuitively *knew* that I *had* to lead my life in discovery of my *own* Spiritual truth, and that is more or less what I have done ever since.
One thing that I am extremely unhappy about is that in Britain, schools compulsorily teach christianity as if it is an incontrovertible fact, rather than part of middle eastern history and geography. Children are taught that the bible is absolutely beyond question, and that all it contains is factual rather than open to historical and philosophical interpretation. Anyone child who dares dispute these teachings is treated very adversly. I know, because, at the age of 7 years, I openly stated to my religious education teacher, who also happened to be the village Church of England Vicar, that I could not accept what was being taught as fact. That caused a real storm I can tell you
But this is a serious situation - children are impressionable, and look to their teachers and parents for the absolute truth in all things. Children are being seriously misled at best and for what - in an effort to keep the christian church and religion alive no doubt.
Fortunately, my three sons aged 11, 10 and nearly 9 years, have also totally rejected christianity of their own accord. I have not sought to influence them in any way whatsoever, because, as I did at their ages, they also study such things as the big bang theory, evolution etc., (and even carry books on these subjects to read in the car on the way to school), and can see the religious teachings for what they are. They dare not say anything at school however - the head teacher is a devout practicing christian methodist, and would not approve of such dissent. My eldest boy is already following a high spiritual path, and follows Astral projection and many other spiritual possibilities.
But what sort of educational system seeks to deny a child the right to their own spiritual path at such a very young and highly impressionable age - a path they will be following throughout this incarnation, and throughout all future incarnations?
Children should always be taught the facts and facts alone, and never be subjected to such religious dogma. They should be encouraged to discover their own truths about who God (i.e. The Divine, The One) as the creator and master of the universe and his heirrarchy really are, and their fundamental cosmic realities in this multi-dimensional, spiritual universe we are priveledged to be an integral part of, and of all other beings of all types on *all* planes and dimensions of existence everywhere and everywhen.
Daniel: I respect your faith and dedication to LDS, notwithstanding the fact I don't know much about your religion. You are clearly very sincere in your beliefs, and LDS does seem somewhat more enlightened and spiritually aware than many religions. I don't know who Joseph Smith was, but clearly he was a great person, and with many characteristics of the great spiritual leaders, and was apparently, like some of them was prepared to die to convey his message. But let me ask you this question - if you have, or will have children - will you teach them that LDS is THE only way and bring them up accordingly, or will you present them with the facts about ALL possible spiritual paths, and let them determine which spiritual path is right for them?
Best regards,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 14, 2002, 12:03:26
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 14, 2002, 12:03:26
Adrian: In regards to your question about how I will bring my children up. First off, let me start off by analyzing what you said about your own children. It sounds like they are taking the same path as you, and no doubt your example and what you believe, or don't believe, has had a huge impression upon them...it's inevitable.
I will never force my children to believe anything, and what they choose to believe it up to them because they are seperate, individual beings...given to me to raise by God, but I attend church once a week and my children will too. At church we testify of the things we have come to know, and at home we teach that there is a God, we are His children, He loves us and He wants us to return to Him. We also teach that Jesus Christ is His son and our brother. So, I guess the bottom line is that my children will be brought up under these beliefs, but at the age of eight is when they will have decide for themsleves. In order to be baptized in the LDS church, a child must wait until the age of eight and then have an "interview" in which he or she is is asked if they want to be baptized.
This might seem too young, and so of course they are going to say yes. But this isn't always the case, if they are not sure or don't seem ready then they are encouraged to wait. I don't think any other Christian churches do like wise.
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
I will never force my children to believe anything, and what they choose to believe it up to them because they are seperate, individual beings...given to me to raise by God, but I attend church once a week and my children will too. At church we testify of the things we have come to know, and at home we teach that there is a God, we are His children, He loves us and He wants us to return to Him. We also teach that Jesus Christ is His son and our brother. So, I guess the bottom line is that my children will be brought up under these beliefs, but at the age of eight is when they will have decide for themsleves. In order to be baptized in the LDS church, a child must wait until the age of eight and then have an "interview" in which he or she is is asked if they want to be baptized.
This might seem too young, and so of course they are going to say yes. But this isn't always the case, if they are not sure or don't seem ready then they are encouraged to wait. I don't think any other Christian churches do like wise.
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 14, 2002, 12:17:13
Post by: Adrian on March 14, 2002, 12:17:13
Greetings Daniel!
In your enthusiasm, you posted the same message as a reply three times - I have deleted the first two postings as they are identical to the final one. I assume it was a mistake on your part.
But please read your own post, you speak thus:
This to me is religious indoctrination and dogma, every bit as much as christianity, as you are still presenting these things to children as if they are facts rather than ideas or concepts.
I must stress, I would never, ever seek to deny people these rights to follow any path they choose, but what you say does highlight my point about influencing children, who, for the most part, are unlikely to go against the religion expected by their families.
Best regards,
Adrian.
In your enthusiasm, you posted the same message as a reply three times - I have deleted the first two postings as they are identical to the final one. I assume it was a mistake on your part.
But please read your own post, you speak thus:
quote:
...but I attend church once a week and my children will too. At church we testify of the things we have come to know, and at home we teach that there is a God, we are His children, He loves us and He wants us to return to Him. We also teach that Jesus Christ is His son and our brother.
This to me is religious indoctrination and dogma, every bit as much as christianity, as you are still presenting these things to children as if they are facts rather than ideas or concepts.
I must stress, I would never, ever seek to deny people these rights to follow any path they choose, but what you say does highlight my point about influencing children, who, for the most part, are unlikely to go against the religion expected by their families.
Best regards,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Mobius on March 14, 2002, 17:01:56
Post by: Mobius on March 14, 2002, 17:01:56
G,day all again on this 2000 year old debate, I must admit, it
hasnt degenerated into slanging matches as some bible debate sites have,so we are going all right so far by the looks of things.
To joe, I know Adrian is not LDS, & I trust & hope he didnt think
I did, the 1st & 2nd line of my post was to Adrian & the 3rd line on
was to anyone, but probably more Daniel.
I will tell you a little bit about my involvement with Christianity,
Kristos, Mr Ben Panthera.
My Mothers side of the family was devout, strict Christians, totally
& utterley giving their all to it.My cousin is a Christian priest &
my uncle is an LDS priest & up until I was 10 I was an altar boy.
I "know" what my cousin, uncle & the priests got up to, really thought
about & what their actions were.I,m not saying all are bad & do
the wrong thing by people, so many were & are just good people
wanting to do good but being used & lied to.
If you believe so much in these great men, why not do what they did.
Good things for people, without a book, a set of guidelines, churches,
donations, Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Rabbi,s .
It should be something that comes naturally, not forced or designed
for the benefit of a few at the expense of many.
The thing is Daniel, when I read your posts I get a bit frustrated, but not angry, you see my name is Daniel also & when I read your
posts it reminds me of me, 20 years ago & I just wish the present
me could tell that past me to go & read a critics opinion of what
I,m involved in.The courtroom is Life & you are the Judge, are you
going to let one side come in & tell you what the story is?
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
hasnt degenerated into slanging matches as some bible debate sites have,so we are going all right so far by the looks of things.
To joe, I know Adrian is not LDS, & I trust & hope he didnt think
I did, the 1st & 2nd line of my post was to Adrian & the 3rd line on
was to anyone, but probably more Daniel.
I will tell you a little bit about my involvement with Christianity,
Kristos, Mr Ben Panthera.
My Mothers side of the family was devout, strict Christians, totally
& utterley giving their all to it.My cousin is a Christian priest &
my uncle is an LDS priest & up until I was 10 I was an altar boy.
I "know" what my cousin, uncle & the priests got up to, really thought
about & what their actions were.I,m not saying all are bad & do
the wrong thing by people, so many were & are just good people
wanting to do good but being used & lied to.
If you believe so much in these great men, why not do what they did.
Good things for people, without a book, a set of guidelines, churches,
donations, Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Rabbi,s .
It should be something that comes naturally, not forced or designed
for the benefit of a few at the expense of many.
The thing is Daniel, when I read your posts I get a bit frustrated, but not angry, you see my name is Daniel also & when I read your
posts it reminds me of me, 20 years ago & I just wish the present
me could tell that past me to go & read a critics opinion of what
I,m involved in.The courtroom is Life & you are the Judge, are you
going to let one side come in & tell you what the story is?
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Rob on March 14, 2002, 19:56:46
Post by: Rob on March 14, 2002, 19:56:46
Interesting debate,
I was brought up on Christianity, sunday to church every week, but now though I may basically hold many christian viewpoints, I would consider myself to be more of a universal religion - I appreciate something in all of them, and I trust that the ones I am not so familiar with (yet) also have good teachings.
My point is this: If someone is brought up well, and not encouraged to have a closed mind, then that is the way they actually grow up. Past that point, if they are aligned to the spiritual, they will discover all these things themselves. My father is a strong catholic, my mother protestant, both relatively closed minded to all things like OBE, but it does not really matter. If someone is the type to find their own way, they will, nomatter what religion they were taught at an early age - although they may appreciate that way more that others, this is simply because they know more about it;. What is important is the attitudes they were encouraged to hold, religion in that respect for most kids is very, very insignificant.
Further, I believe to follow dogmatically a certain religion is good for some people (eg my dad) because it provides them with comfort in the ritual, and they are not looking for anything else, happy as he is (bte my father was not brought up in that religion, he changed at about 20)
have had a few drinks, hope this makes some sense
peacus
Rob
Edited by - Inguma on 15 March 2002 02:58:57
I was brought up on Christianity, sunday to church every week, but now though I may basically hold many christian viewpoints, I would consider myself to be more of a universal religion - I appreciate something in all of them, and I trust that the ones I am not so familiar with (yet) also have good teachings.
My point is this: If someone is brought up well, and not encouraged to have a closed mind, then that is the way they actually grow up. Past that point, if they are aligned to the spiritual, they will discover all these things themselves. My father is a strong catholic, my mother protestant, both relatively closed minded to all things like OBE, but it does not really matter. If someone is the type to find their own way, they will, nomatter what religion they were taught at an early age - although they may appreciate that way more that others, this is simply because they know more about it;. What is important is the attitudes they were encouraged to hold, religion in that respect for most kids is very, very insignificant.
Further, I believe to follow dogmatically a certain religion is good for some people (eg my dad) because it provides them with comfort in the ritual, and they are not looking for anything else, happy as he is (bte my father was not brought up in that religion, he changed at about 20)
have had a few drinks, hope this makes some sense
peacus
Rob
Edited by - Inguma on 15 March 2002 02:58:57
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Mobius on March 15, 2002, 02:44:29
Post by: Mobius on March 15, 2002, 02:44:29
Hi again all, just thought I,d post one of my favourite sites on
this excellent subject, well its not just this topic but anyway
check it out, its a summary from Laurence Gardiners book
" Bloodline of the holy grail ".
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/holygrail.html
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
this excellent subject, well its not just this topic but anyway
check it out, its a summary from Laurence Gardiners book
" Bloodline of the holy grail ".
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/holygrail.html
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 15, 2002, 04:10:26
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 15, 2002, 04:10:26
I like what everyone has to say on this subject, it's all very interesting and enlightening. I like what Inguma said near the end...if one is brought up in a belief system that is positive, although you might feel it is restrictive, if the belief system promotes free thinking and "presonal revelation" as does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, then individuals have the opportunity to grow and make their own decisions.
I personally feel in a world like this, especially with individuals and organizations having as much influence as they do through media channels, etc. I know that we must teach our children what we have found to be true...ideas and beliefs that help us to grow and know who we truly our..to understand our potential, etc. If not they will be eaten alive by violence, pornography, etc. Trust me when I say that I have been there and back. I have seen the abyss and I have seen the light...and what I choose isn't dogma, it isn't ignorance...it's something that I KNOW and I have EXPERIENCED. I hold nothing against others who don't follow the precepts by which I live, and I don't force my beliefs on anyone, that would be evil (I really expound on that).
Trust me, it's tough, even within my own community, to be a truly open minded Christian. It's tough in this world, for I feel unaccepted by most Christians who don't regard LDS as Christians because we are really far to the left in comparison to their largely dogmatic beliefs, and then of course amongst mystics and spiritualists I am frowned upon as if I were some niave child who bursted into a conversation which I should know nothing about.
Peace!
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
I personally feel in a world like this, especially with individuals and organizations having as much influence as they do through media channels, etc. I know that we must teach our children what we have found to be true...ideas and beliefs that help us to grow and know who we truly our..to understand our potential, etc. If not they will be eaten alive by violence, pornography, etc. Trust me when I say that I have been there and back. I have seen the abyss and I have seen the light...and what I choose isn't dogma, it isn't ignorance...it's something that I KNOW and I have EXPERIENCED. I hold nothing against others who don't follow the precepts by which I live, and I don't force my beliefs on anyone, that would be evil (I really expound on that).
Trust me, it's tough, even within my own community, to be a truly open minded Christian. It's tough in this world, for I feel unaccepted by most Christians who don't regard LDS as Christians because we are really far to the left in comparison to their largely dogmatic beliefs, and then of course amongst mystics and spiritualists I am frowned upon as if I were some niave child who bursted into a conversation which I should know nothing about.
Peace!
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 15, 2002, 06:01:12
Post by: Adrian on March 15, 2002, 06:01:12
Greetings Daniel!
I do respect and admire your stance, believe me - because it is very sincere. I do find the LDS church somewhat of an enigma from what you have kindly taken the time to teach us about it here in this forum - but that is not to judge it in any way - I suspect its congregation are more devout and sincere in their beliefs and practices than many catholics, protestants etc. are.
But a couple of things that I must point out. Yes - we have a duty as parents to protect them from, and teach our children about, *every day* dangers of life - of which there are all too many at every turn.
But from a religious or spiritual standpoint, the only truth is ones own truth - you say:
But what is true for you, might not be true for them, and therefore you are unwittingly influencing their real truth from an early age, and which it might take them many years to turn about, if their truth turns out to be along an alternative spiritual path.
The only way to approach this matter with children (in my opinion) is to point them in the right direction of where to discover the truth for themselves, without putting forward any pro-forma opinion, and definitely without compelling them to attend any church where they are saturated with the truth of others as if it were the absolute and only truth. This is why I object strongly to religion, any religion being taught in schools as if it were every bit as much of a fact as math, history, science, geography etc..
Let them read about astrophysics, evolution, metaphysics, Magic etc., and when they are old enough let them read the Kabbalah (no mean task), Hermetics, Buddhism and so on. BTW - I am not a Buddhist and could not become one - it is not my own path - but I do have a particular respect for Buddha and Buddhism generally.
Our duty as parents is to facilitate the truth, not indoctrinate our children.
Best regards,
Adrian.
I do respect and admire your stance, believe me - because it is very sincere. I do find the LDS church somewhat of an enigma from what you have kindly taken the time to teach us about it here in this forum - but that is not to judge it in any way - I suspect its congregation are more devout and sincere in their beliefs and practices than many catholics, protestants etc. are.
But a couple of things that I must point out. Yes - we have a duty as parents to protect them from, and teach our children about, *every day* dangers of life - of which there are all too many at every turn.
But from a religious or spiritual standpoint, the only truth is ones own truth - you say:
quote:
I know that we must teach our children what we have found to be true...ideas and beliefs that help us to grow and know who we truly our..to understand our potential, etc.
But what is true for you, might not be true for them, and therefore you are unwittingly influencing their real truth from an early age, and which it might take them many years to turn about, if their truth turns out to be along an alternative spiritual path.
The only way to approach this matter with children (in my opinion) is to point them in the right direction of where to discover the truth for themselves, without putting forward any pro-forma opinion, and definitely without compelling them to attend any church where they are saturated with the truth of others as if it were the absolute and only truth. This is why I object strongly to religion, any religion being taught in schools as if it were every bit as much of a fact as math, history, science, geography etc..
Let them read about astrophysics, evolution, metaphysics, Magic etc., and when they are old enough let them read the Kabbalah (no mean task), Hermetics, Buddhism and so on. BTW - I am not a Buddhist and could not become one - it is not my own path - but I do have a particular respect for Buddha and Buddhism generally.
Our duty as parents is to facilitate the truth, not indoctrinate our children.
Best regards,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Rob on March 15, 2002, 06:58:02
Post by: Rob on March 15, 2002, 06:58:02
Adrian, I agree with what you have to say in theory - that bringing children up under certain "pre-packaged" beliefs is restrictive, but not in practice. I expect you have your own personal reasons for holding your opinions, but I personally have never seen anyone who has been adversely affecting by religion. Some people are closed minded christians, but I seriously believe they would be closed minded people even if they were not brought up under the umbrella of organised religion. This is because quite simply, that is the mindstate most of humanity is in. People who go looking for their own way, like you, me, Daniel and most people here are rare, as is the way of society. Further, it is also possible to find people who are new age/mystic/claiming spiritual who are just as bad at being closed minded.
Lastly, I would like to say that although everyone has to find their own way, for some this way is organised religion. There is a chatholic priest/bishop (pretty high up, Mon Seignor?) person I know from back at the church in the falklands, who is the truly the most spiritual and holy man I have ever met. Nobody I have met in person comes close, he practically shines. He is a true Christian, who follows the catholic "dogma" (though he is relatively low and relaxed for a catholic), but I just have to think, look what he managed to accomplish with it.
So for someone who is aligned to set religion, it may well not matter if they are brough up in christian/buddhist/hindu because a) children reflect their parents b)if this is their way, they will follow it, c)if not (like me) they will go looking elsewhere and possibly d) the main organised religion in a country reflects the mindstate of that country (cause or effect? Both I reckon, symbiotic growth)
The only thing which I abhor is closed mindedness, which set religion does not have to be. Acceptance that other people (friends, family, neighbours) are different to you overcomes all these things.
Lastly, I would like to say that although everyone has to find their own way, for some this way is organised religion. There is a chatholic priest/bishop (pretty high up, Mon Seignor?) person I know from back at the church in the falklands, who is the truly the most spiritual and holy man I have ever met. Nobody I have met in person comes close, he practically shines. He is a true Christian, who follows the catholic "dogma" (though he is relatively low and relaxed for a catholic), but I just have to think, look what he managed to accomplish with it.
So for someone who is aligned to set religion, it may well not matter if they are brough up in christian/buddhist/hindu because a) children reflect their parents b)if this is their way, they will follow it, c)if not (like me) they will go looking elsewhere and possibly d) the main organised religion in a country reflects the mindstate of that country (cause or effect? Both I reckon, symbiotic growth)
The only thing which I abhor is closed mindedness, which set religion does not have to be. Acceptance that other people (friends, family, neighbours) are different to you overcomes all these things.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 15, 2002, 07:55:44
Post by: Adrian on March 15, 2002, 07:55:44
Greetings Inguma!
I hear and respect what you say.
But you can take it from me, that children generally believe what they are taught by their parents, teachers and others in authority they look to for the truth.
In school and church they are taught religion as fact, and not in the context of ancient history or science.
If children are taught something is so, then they accept it instinctively as factual, and "unlearning" it many years later is very difficut - indeed most people either cannot, or more likely find it more convenient not to even try - they just accept the dogma.
My children have asked me whether they should take any notice of the religion they are taught at school. I have told them that it is "real" to the people who teach it, and they are sincere in their beliefs, but that is all they are - the beliefs of those people, and they must be respected. I tell them to listen respectfully to what is being said. But they also have all the opportunities they need at all times to study astrophysics, evolution, metaphysics etc. (my eldest studies all of those avidly as well as Astral projection, TK etc,), but not to formulate any opinion, or decide upon a true spiritual path (if they want to pursue such a path), until they are old enough to understand all of the issues involved to the extent they can be understood, and progress from there. At the final analysis, I would unconditionally support whatever spiritual path they chose to take.
But I see so many school children who are sadly unquestioning religious copies of their parents. They wear crucifix's, and ridicule other children who do not, or say they do not believe in christianity etc.. Their parents are generally very biggoted sadly, as are many teachers. Fortunately, my children are like me - we do not bother what other people think of us - it is not important - they have their lives to lead, and we have our own.
It is a difficult issue I know, but I have to say that christianity uses schools, and the promise of heaven, or threat of hell, to propogate itself and keep itself alive.
Best regards,
Adrian.
I hear and respect what you say.
But you can take it from me, that children generally believe what they are taught by their parents, teachers and others in authority they look to for the truth.
In school and church they are taught religion as fact, and not in the context of ancient history or science.
If children are taught something is so, then they accept it instinctively as factual, and "unlearning" it many years later is very difficut - indeed most people either cannot, or more likely find it more convenient not to even try - they just accept the dogma.
My children have asked me whether they should take any notice of the religion they are taught at school. I have told them that it is "real" to the people who teach it, and they are sincere in their beliefs, but that is all they are - the beliefs of those people, and they must be respected. I tell them to listen respectfully to what is being said. But they also have all the opportunities they need at all times to study astrophysics, evolution, metaphysics etc. (my eldest studies all of those avidly as well as Astral projection, TK etc,), but not to formulate any opinion, or decide upon a true spiritual path (if they want to pursue such a path), until they are old enough to understand all of the issues involved to the extent they can be understood, and progress from there. At the final analysis, I would unconditionally support whatever spiritual path they chose to take.
But I see so many school children who are sadly unquestioning religious copies of their parents. They wear crucifix's, and ridicule other children who do not, or say they do not believe in christianity etc.. Their parents are generally very biggoted sadly, as are many teachers. Fortunately, my children are like me - we do not bother what other people think of us - it is not important - they have their lives to lead, and we have our own.
It is a difficult issue I know, but I have to say that christianity uses schools, and the promise of heaven, or threat of hell, to propogate itself and keep itself alive.
Best regards,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 15, 2002, 12:11:37
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 15, 2002, 12:11:37
Adrian- where are you from? I believe you mentioned it before, but I don't remember...anyway, here in America the schools are not influenced very much, if at all by Christianity. It is aparent, however, that this is not true for the school system your children attend and I believe this definetly colors your ideology...much of which I agree with.
I lived in Italy (la bella italia!) for two years of my young life and I believe there don't exist too many other countries with the same genre of systematic dogma in the world. The people there are frankly pathetic in regards to their belief system (no disrespect to the people in general, I LOVE ITALY AND ITALIANS--I speak italian and am always visiting Italy in my dreams, if you know what I mean)...but the Catholic church rules there, in every aspect of life. THe people are blinded and they suffer horibbly from the effects of spiritual death.
I point this out to allow you to understand that I understand exactly where you are coming from. Free agency, the chance to choose, is vital ofr an individual to find truth. I think our real debate comes down to whether an objective TRUTH exists, and I believe it does. I also believe that before a spirit comes to this world and is incarnated in a physical body, he or she chooses the destination and those spirits who will act as "parents" (they are not always the biological parents). The debate, then, is whether objective truth does indeed exist and whether or not this life is a continuation of a previous life, with the circumstances of this life being an extension of the previous life...which I hold is the case.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Edited by - daniel on 15 March 2002 19:12:52
I lived in Italy (la bella italia!) for two years of my young life and I believe there don't exist too many other countries with the same genre of systematic dogma in the world. The people there are frankly pathetic in regards to their belief system (no disrespect to the people in general, I LOVE ITALY AND ITALIANS--I speak italian and am always visiting Italy in my dreams, if you know what I mean)...but the Catholic church rules there, in every aspect of life. THe people are blinded and they suffer horibbly from the effects of spiritual death.
I point this out to allow you to understand that I understand exactly where you are coming from. Free agency, the chance to choose, is vital ofr an individual to find truth. I think our real debate comes down to whether an objective TRUTH exists, and I believe it does. I also believe that before a spirit comes to this world and is incarnated in a physical body, he or she chooses the destination and those spirits who will act as "parents" (they are not always the biological parents). The debate, then, is whether objective truth does indeed exist and whether or not this life is a continuation of a previous life, with the circumstances of this life being an extension of the previous life...which I hold is the case.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Edited by - daniel on 15 March 2002 19:12:52
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 15, 2002, 12:35:33
Post by: Adrian on March 15, 2002, 12:35:33
Greetings Daniel!
The left hand column of each post gives the user name and location of the poster.
But I reside in the Isle of Man, which is a seperate country in the British Isles.
Actually, we have the longest running system of government in the World, dating back over 1000 years, founded by the Vikings. The Island is an very mystical place, with a very interesting history indeed, which I won't go into right now.
But the Isle of Man follows a very similar educational system to the UK where I was raised, in Central England. Here, as there, "religious education" (RE) and "scripture" (christian religious history) are mandatory. Also mandatory is morning "assembly" where children are required to participate in christian prayer and hymn singing. Very often, as is the case with my children, the religious teachers are actually christian ministers and who have a particular interest in recruiting for the church. If one challenges this, one might be looked upon as some sort of blasphemous heathen, who is booking his ticket to hell.
As I said before, you speak alot of sense, and you are clearly very sincere in your beliefs and I respect that. But you are, after all, evangelising for the LDS church, which, in part, proves my point about religious indoctrination generally. I don't have any problem with you stating your beliefs and views here by the way, it provides a useful balance, but I am sure you can see what I am saying in general terms.
At the very final analysis, the LDS and its congregation, are actively engaged in recruiting for your church, just as many other religious groups do - I am sure you know the ones I mean - the ones that arrive in pairs on the doorstep with their messages
I am saying that children should be presented with all the facts (without the dogma), and the information sources for all spiritual paths, and allowed to formulate their own truth over however many years it takes them to do so. It might take a lifetime or many lifetimes.
BTW - am I right in saying that the LDS or Mormon church require their congregation to compulsarily contribute a percentage (10%?) of their income to the church? Forgive me if I am wrong, but if I am right then that does add a definite commercial motivation.
Best regards,
Adrian.
The left hand column of each post gives the user name and location of the poster.
But I reside in the Isle of Man, which is a seperate country in the British Isles.
Actually, we have the longest running system of government in the World, dating back over 1000 years, founded by the Vikings. The Island is an very mystical place, with a very interesting history indeed, which I won't go into right now.
But the Isle of Man follows a very similar educational system to the UK where I was raised, in Central England. Here, as there, "religious education" (RE) and "scripture" (christian religious history) are mandatory. Also mandatory is morning "assembly" where children are required to participate in christian prayer and hymn singing. Very often, as is the case with my children, the religious teachers are actually christian ministers and who have a particular interest in recruiting for the church. If one challenges this, one might be looked upon as some sort of blasphemous heathen, who is booking his ticket to hell.
As I said before, you speak alot of sense, and you are clearly very sincere in your beliefs and I respect that. But you are, after all, evangelising for the LDS church, which, in part, proves my point about religious indoctrination generally. I don't have any problem with you stating your beliefs and views here by the way, it provides a useful balance, but I am sure you can see what I am saying in general terms.
At the very final analysis, the LDS and its congregation, are actively engaged in recruiting for your church, just as many other religious groups do - I am sure you know the ones I mean - the ones that arrive in pairs on the doorstep with their messages
I am saying that children should be presented with all the facts (without the dogma), and the information sources for all spiritual paths, and allowed to formulate their own truth over however many years it takes them to do so. It might take a lifetime or many lifetimes.
BTW - am I right in saying that the LDS or Mormon church require their congregation to compulsarily contribute a percentage (10%?) of their income to the church? Forgive me if I am wrong, but if I am right then that does add a definite commercial motivation.
Best regards,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Mobius on March 15, 2002, 16:53:36
Post by: Mobius on March 15, 2002, 16:53:36
Hi everyone, Adrian from my experience you cant be any more right.
I hope to be going to England this year, so if I,ve got time I,ll
check out the Isle of Man, I love mysteries.
My mother is now Buddhist & tried to convert me to it, it didnt
work but I,ve still got one book called "Life, an enigma, a
precious jewel" by Daisaku Ikeda, a good little book, I dont mind
the Buddhists.
When it comes to any religions though, they are a lot like Amway,
a few people a the top telling people how great it is & they
can acheive it too! if they just rally around their cause & pump
lots of time, money & energy into recruiting others.
The difference between Amway & Religions is that religions dont
pay tax, so 1 guess who gets all the tax free money?
All the best on your journeys
P.S did any of you read my link on my last post, whats your spin on
that?
Mobius
I hope to be going to England this year, so if I,ve got time I,ll
check out the Isle of Man, I love mysteries.
My mother is now Buddhist & tried to convert me to it, it didnt
work but I,ve still got one book called "Life, an enigma, a
precious jewel" by Daisaku Ikeda, a good little book, I dont mind
the Buddhists.
When it comes to any religions though, they are a lot like Amway,
a few people a the top telling people how great it is & they
can acheive it too! if they just rally around their cause & pump
lots of time, money & energy into recruiting others.
The difference between Amway & Religions is that religions dont
pay tax, so 1 guess who gets all the tax free money?
All the best on your journeys
P.S did any of you read my link on my last post, whats your spin on
that?
Mobius
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 16, 2002, 00:50:07
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 16, 2002, 00:50:07
Yes, Adrian you are correct...as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS I pay ten percent of all my income to the tithes of the church, and happily. It is not mandatory, but it is definetly encouraged. We have beautiful church buildings, temples, a complex missionary program as well as one of the most efficient forms of church welfare, oh yeah and a world wide charity organization. The money is meticulously managed and the "leaders" of the church, which anyone can become because there aren't any politics, and do not take any of the money collected from tithes for themselves (which is probably hard to believe). These are modest men and, for example, all reside in the homes they had before they became leaders. Many gave up successful private businesses or medical careers to do what they do and because no one in the church is paid clergy, all members have responsibilities. My fiance's father is a Bishop and the poor man comes home from work and goes to the church five days a week to help troubled youth and talk with people about their problems in general...and he recieves NOTHING but spiritual blessings for his calling. I think one important facet of organized religion is that if you follow something with all your heart, it gives you the chance to interact with others and share their burdens.
Well, I would like to write more but I gotta run for now...
See ya!
-Dan
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Well, I would like to write more but I gotta run for now...
See ya!
-Dan
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 16, 2002, 05:41:53
Post by: Adrian on March 16, 2002, 05:41:53
Greetings Daniel!
I think we have now said all that can usefully be said for now regarding your LDS church, belief systems, religions, teachings etc.. I understand your position, and I respect it.
But at the very final analysis, Bhikku sums it up perfectly when he said, in response to your first post in this thread:
"It is going to come down to facing yourself in the end, no one else"
Before you can advance, spiritually, along your own true path, and your ultimate destiny, you have to know yourself totally, absolutely and honestly, and without compromise.
Even if a person believes they are decent, and they often are for the most part, it is not very difficult at all to delve deeper and deeper in critical self-analysis, to reveal the very many, often slight, often greater imperfections of ones individuality of self.
We need to go all the way to the very deepest depths of our own personalities and individualities, in order to discover every single imperfection, while being brutally honest with ones self, and disgard those imperfections absolutely completely and forever.
Only then can we embark upon and progress along the road to absolute spiritual truth and ultimately individual spiritual perfection and destiny. Such a spiritual path could take a great many lifetimes in total to fulfill, so it is best to start now.
The fact is, in summary, you need to look to, and know yourself before, and even instead of looking to, and knowing your church, in your case the LDS.
Best regards,
Adrian.
I think we have now said all that can usefully be said for now regarding your LDS church, belief systems, religions, teachings etc.. I understand your position, and I respect it.
But at the very final analysis, Bhikku sums it up perfectly when he said, in response to your first post in this thread:
"It is going to come down to facing yourself in the end, no one else"
Before you can advance, spiritually, along your own true path, and your ultimate destiny, you have to know yourself totally, absolutely and honestly, and without compromise.
Even if a person believes they are decent, and they often are for the most part, it is not very difficult at all to delve deeper and deeper in critical self-analysis, to reveal the very many, often slight, often greater imperfections of ones individuality of self.
We need to go all the way to the very deepest depths of our own personalities and individualities, in order to discover every single imperfection, while being brutally honest with ones self, and disgard those imperfections absolutely completely and forever.
Only then can we embark upon and progress along the road to absolute spiritual truth and ultimately individual spiritual perfection and destiny. Such a spiritual path could take a great many lifetimes in total to fulfill, so it is best to start now.
The fact is, in summary, you need to look to, and know yourself before, and even instead of looking to, and knowing your church, in your case the LDS.
Best regards,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Rob on March 16, 2002, 09:34:22
Post by: Rob on March 16, 2002, 09:34:22
Adrian I want to reply to your last post,
You seem to be treating all church experiences as a bad thing, when infact it sounds like the LDS church operates in much the same way as this forum - we all have our own beliefs, and present them and our experiences to other members in the hope that we may all learn something and grow from it.
And you cannot have noticed that Christianity has some very good points about it? I tell my parents (most!) of my beliefs, also how I try and live to be a better person every day, and they still think I am a good Christian. I expect you read lots of interesting mystic/etc books? Christianity also revolves around the reading of one very special book, which whether treated as fact, fiction or something completely different still allows deep and often profound insight. And really, it is difficult to take the bible completely literally because so much of it contradicts itself. OK, so many people may not know this, because they have been brought up to believe the good book as factual, but generally the people who go through life believing this are the same who have never recieved any real spiritual calling - if they did they would discover such things themselves ("seek first the kingdom of heaven and all these things shall be added unto you." said Jesus). So I stick to my above point, that the type of person is what determines spiritual growth, which may be affected slightly by church, but I think we will have to agree to disagree on how much. Like I said, I used to know many church goers, at my age the were normal people, the older ones were all very caring, and the serious - often evangelical - ones at uni are very sweet, lovely people, who seem to try and live life to the highest principles they know. But evidently you have different experiences. Heh, I usually keep all my beliefs hidden from the average christain, in much the same way as I do from the average guy on the street.
However all said I do loudly applaude you for the way you are bringing up your children! I just hope you are teaching them to see the good things in stuff like christianity. As someone on this forum brilliantly pointed out, in live always focus on the dunut, never the hole. I would also add that the hole is a function of the ring and in a way vice versa, if that makes any sense!
Wishing everyone all the best
Oh Adrian, one last thing about your children, how much success have they had? I saw this because I believe that children are naturally spritual and with lots of other interesting abilities, but we forget these things as we grow older and don't use the right faculties, or use the wrong ones (I am still trying to realise some of the things I remember saying when I was younger!). So I would be very interested to hear what happens if children are encouraged along the right lines of spiritual expansion. You say your eldest is already following a high spiritual path - would you mind expanding a little? Thanks in advance!
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 16, 2002, 12:54:13
Post by: Adrian on March 16, 2002, 12:54:13
Greetings Inguma!
Thanks for your response
My position is much more fundamental than your own it seems. LDS is a "packaged religion" just as christianity is a "packaged religion" - or "belief systems". By definition, most religions observe and teach the words of a deity (not THE God in the Kabbalistic, and Divine sense) and delivered as the words of a prophet, and interpreted by the church.
Now notwithstanding the religious perspective, and putting that aside for a moment, here is where the situation becomes much more complicated. It is likely that many of these prophets, e.g. the person known as "Christ" (and erroneously "Jesus"), were in fact great Masters or Adepts just as Hermes Trismegistus and Buddah were, among others. There have of course been other and more recent Masters or Adepts such as Franz Bardon. The teachings of these great Masters were, in my opinion, much more in line with God in the Divine sense, than the god portayed by christianity and other religions. In other words, the true word of these great people has been subsumed by a whole alternative interpretation of their legacies, most notable that of the christian bible which is the human written basis of christianity. The Old Testament, or at least the early books of it, where in fact much closer to the Kabbalah (and also form the basis of the Jewish Torah), and accordingly, rather than intended to be taken literally, were rather symbolic Ancient Hebrew. Genesis I (one) is an excellent example of this. Most of the bible, and all of the new testament is, in my opinion, entirely the work of man in building the christian religion. Christianity has been contrived for and to control the masses, and, for example, until around 350 AD it taught reincarnation. The christian church then realised that they could control people, and make them follow the christian dogma if they devised a "heaven" and "hell" concept, the latter being the place people were told they would go if they were not good christians or dared to follow alternative spiritual paths.
So the point is, christianity is a manufactured religion for the masses, and has very little, if anything, to with the quest for spiritual truth and perfection. Indeed, I have to point out, that christianity has resulted in more deaths and attrocities throughout the ages, than all the wars put together. Catholics murdering protestants and vice versa, the witch hunts, of a few hundred years ago, modern day Northern Ireland - need I go on?
You talk about teaching children the "good points" about christianity. My response is simple. Any good points that christianity might have, are the realities of other people, their ideas of what is "good" and cannot be taught as fact when they are not facts at all.
The only true and enduring religion is ones own discovered spiritual truth and which cannot be taught by others. These spiritual truths and quest for perfection can only be realised by work done with ones own spirit and individuality, and from what learns from experience in the physical, Astral and Mental realms as human being, Soul and Spirit.
To teach people christianity as it were a fact is no different to teaching them that extra terrestrial aliens are a fact, Atlantis is a fact and so on. In fact it is likely that the latter two are more factual than christianity itself. Christianity is therefore a work of fiction, and no responsible person would teach it to their children as fact.
Now here is where, with respect, you miss the point entirely as most people have done:
You cannot teach children or anyone about packaged belief systems or religions as if they were fact!
Spiritual truth, realisation and ultimately perfection, can only be found within the person themselves. Each and every person must first disgard all dogma, fiction, hearsay etc., and discover spiritual truth, realisation and ultimately perfection for themselves. No religion, no book of teachings and no other person can do that for them. Where books are invaluable is where they give guidance as to how and where to discover these things for themselves, without actually influencing the outcome. Many great works such as the Kabbalah, Hermetic works and of course metaphysical works such as Astral Dynamics do exactly that. Those books are "maps" and "beacons" if you will, to finding your own true path.
I would go as far as to say that christianity has a great deal to answer for in preventing people from pursuing there own spirtitual paths, and more often than not persecuting people who feel the need to do so, in many different ways - including at school, and informing people and true seekers that they will surely burn for all eternity in hell for their blasphemy.
The person known as "Christ" was probably a high Adept or Master.
In summary then - you cannot "teach" something as a fact when it is not a fact, but rather the collective ideas of many people over the centuries - much of which has become distorted. And further, it is for each and every person to find their own spiritual path, truth and realisation by looking within themselves, and from then on discovering their own true path in this and many other realms of reality, and over as many lifetimes as it takes to accomplish. Such a person will be a much more sincere, pure and virtuous person, than any indoctrinated product of christianity or any other religion - including the LDS.
Thank you for asking about my own children and their spiritual path. All of them have rejected christianity of their own accord, after several years of being taught it at school. I have never sought to influence them in this, but have always answered all questions honestly to the extent I can do. My youngest two sons ask alot of questions about astrophysics and evolution, but are not yet ready to pursue a more in depth path. My eldest son, aged 11 years, on the other hand, studies just about everything to do with evolution, astrophysics, metaphysics and spirituality generally, and has a phenomenal understanding of all these matters. I am certain he was advanced along these paths in previous incarnations, and is picking up where he left of at an early age. He was recently subjected to advanced testing at school, and has the knowledge and comprehension level of a 17 year old, and more so in spiritual matters. He acquires this information in his own dedicated and relentless quest for the truth by reading books, and in particular be means of Internet searches for information - which information he never, ever stops seeking. I am sure you can appreciate that my children will continue their own spiritual paths, and be very fine people (as they already are), with more virtues and spirituality christinianity ro any other packaged, dogmatic, belief system could ever give them.
I hope that has clarified my position somewhat
Kind regards,
Adrian.
Thanks for your response
My position is much more fundamental than your own it seems. LDS is a "packaged religion" just as christianity is a "packaged religion" - or "belief systems". By definition, most religions observe and teach the words of a deity (not THE God in the Kabbalistic, and Divine sense) and delivered as the words of a prophet, and interpreted by the church.
Now notwithstanding the religious perspective, and putting that aside for a moment, here is where the situation becomes much more complicated. It is likely that many of these prophets, e.g. the person known as "Christ" (and erroneously "Jesus"), were in fact great Masters or Adepts just as Hermes Trismegistus and Buddah were, among others. There have of course been other and more recent Masters or Adepts such as Franz Bardon. The teachings of these great Masters were, in my opinion, much more in line with God in the Divine sense, than the god portayed by christianity and other religions. In other words, the true word of these great people has been subsumed by a whole alternative interpretation of their legacies, most notable that of the christian bible which is the human written basis of christianity. The Old Testament, or at least the early books of it, where in fact much closer to the Kabbalah (and also form the basis of the Jewish Torah), and accordingly, rather than intended to be taken literally, were rather symbolic Ancient Hebrew. Genesis I (one) is an excellent example of this. Most of the bible, and all of the new testament is, in my opinion, entirely the work of man in building the christian religion. Christianity has been contrived for and to control the masses, and, for example, until around 350 AD it taught reincarnation. The christian church then realised that they could control people, and make them follow the christian dogma if they devised a "heaven" and "hell" concept, the latter being the place people were told they would go if they were not good christians or dared to follow alternative spiritual paths.
So the point is, christianity is a manufactured religion for the masses, and has very little, if anything, to with the quest for spiritual truth and perfection. Indeed, I have to point out, that christianity has resulted in more deaths and attrocities throughout the ages, than all the wars put together. Catholics murdering protestants and vice versa, the witch hunts, of a few hundred years ago, modern day Northern Ireland - need I go on?
You talk about teaching children the "good points" about christianity. My response is simple. Any good points that christianity might have, are the realities of other people, their ideas of what is "good" and cannot be taught as fact when they are not facts at all.
The only true and enduring religion is ones own discovered spiritual truth and which cannot be taught by others. These spiritual truths and quest for perfection can only be realised by work done with ones own spirit and individuality, and from what learns from experience in the physical, Astral and Mental realms as human being, Soul and Spirit.
To teach people christianity as it were a fact is no different to teaching them that extra terrestrial aliens are a fact, Atlantis is a fact and so on. In fact it is likely that the latter two are more factual than christianity itself. Christianity is therefore a work of fiction, and no responsible person would teach it to their children as fact.
Now here is where, with respect, you miss the point entirely as most people have done:
quote:
I just hope you are teaching them to see the good things in stuff like christianity.
You cannot teach children or anyone about packaged belief systems or religions as if they were fact!
Spiritual truth, realisation and ultimately perfection, can only be found within the person themselves. Each and every person must first disgard all dogma, fiction, hearsay etc., and discover spiritual truth, realisation and ultimately perfection for themselves. No religion, no book of teachings and no other person can do that for them. Where books are invaluable is where they give guidance as to how and where to discover these things for themselves, without actually influencing the outcome. Many great works such as the Kabbalah, Hermetic works and of course metaphysical works such as Astral Dynamics do exactly that. Those books are "maps" and "beacons" if you will, to finding your own true path.
I would go as far as to say that christianity has a great deal to answer for in preventing people from pursuing there own spirtitual paths, and more often than not persecuting people who feel the need to do so, in many different ways - including at school, and informing people and true seekers that they will surely burn for all eternity in hell for their blasphemy.
The person known as "Christ" was probably a high Adept or Master.
In summary then - you cannot "teach" something as a fact when it is not a fact, but rather the collective ideas of many people over the centuries - much of which has become distorted. And further, it is for each and every person to find their own spiritual path, truth and realisation by looking within themselves, and from then on discovering their own true path in this and many other realms of reality, and over as many lifetimes as it takes to accomplish. Such a person will be a much more sincere, pure and virtuous person, than any indoctrinated product of christianity or any other religion - including the LDS.
Thank you for asking about my own children and their spiritual path. All of them have rejected christianity of their own accord, after several years of being taught it at school. I have never sought to influence them in this, but have always answered all questions honestly to the extent I can do. My youngest two sons ask alot of questions about astrophysics and evolution, but are not yet ready to pursue a more in depth path. My eldest son, aged 11 years, on the other hand, studies just about everything to do with evolution, astrophysics, metaphysics and spirituality generally, and has a phenomenal understanding of all these matters. I am certain he was advanced along these paths in previous incarnations, and is picking up where he left of at an early age. He was recently subjected to advanced testing at school, and has the knowledge and comprehension level of a 17 year old, and more so in spiritual matters. He acquires this information in his own dedicated and relentless quest for the truth by reading books, and in particular be means of Internet searches for information - which information he never, ever stops seeking. I am sure you can appreciate that my children will continue their own spiritual paths, and be very fine people (as they already are), with more virtues and spirituality christinianity ro any other packaged, dogmatic, belief system could ever give them.
I hope that has clarified my position somewhat
Kind regards,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Mobius on March 16, 2002, 16:36:43
Post by: Mobius on March 16, 2002, 16:36:43
G,day all, I noticed no-one has seemed to had a look at the link
I posted on the 1st page of this topic.
By the looks of things Adrian allready knows & probably doesnt need
to read it, so Daniel & Inguma could you have a quick look please &
tell me what you think?
Daniel, we got into this debate a little when I 1st joined this
site & you posted your LDS information & website, I checked yours
out & told you where I stand & my invovlement in it, I know its
a long summary on the "holy grail" but really, will you only look
at one point of view, just because its what your told?
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
I posted on the 1st page of this topic.
By the looks of things Adrian allready knows & probably doesnt need
to read it, so Daniel & Inguma could you have a quick look please &
tell me what you think?
Daniel, we got into this debate a little when I 1st joined this
site & you posted your LDS information & website, I checked yours
out & told you where I stand & my invovlement in it, I know its
a long summary on the "holy grail" but really, will you only look
at one point of view, just because its what your told?
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 16, 2002, 21:50:06
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 16, 2002, 21:50:06
Mobius-
I visited the link which you posted on the previous page and found it to be quite interesting. Actually I, along with most others on the LDS faith, also know that Christ was married and most likely had children. Unlike Catholics, we feel that men-priests, everyone- should me married if at all possible. We feel that family is a vital component to our spiritual growth and thus we believe that Christ was no exception, since he was an example in all things.
The article was very interesting, although I have never given much thought to an blood lines relating to his offspring.
Despite the way everyone wants to view "packaged belief systems" which I feel the LDS faith is not, although it would definetly appear to be to outside points of view... I think the bottom line, speaking of the quest for truth and enlightenment, is that God works from the inside out. No matter how you open the door to growth, as long as it comes from the inside and entails, as Adrian said, scrutinizing introspection...it doesn't really matter how it happens. Look on the inside of youself, know thyself...love thyself, purge any negativity and become one with God. This is the goal.
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
I visited the link which you posted on the previous page and found it to be quite interesting. Actually I, along with most others on the LDS faith, also know that Christ was married and most likely had children. Unlike Catholics, we feel that men-priests, everyone- should me married if at all possible. We feel that family is a vital component to our spiritual growth and thus we believe that Christ was no exception, since he was an example in all things.
The article was very interesting, although I have never given much thought to an blood lines relating to his offspring.
Despite the way everyone wants to view "packaged belief systems" which I feel the LDS faith is not, although it would definetly appear to be to outside points of view... I think the bottom line, speaking of the quest for truth and enlightenment, is that God works from the inside out. No matter how you open the door to growth, as long as it comes from the inside and entails, as Adrian said, scrutinizing introspection...it doesn't really matter how it happens. Look on the inside of youself, know thyself...love thyself, purge any negativity and become one with God. This is the goal.
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Mobius on March 17, 2002, 03:58:15
Post by: Mobius on March 17, 2002, 03:58:15
G,day Daniel, yes my Uncle who is an LDS priest had a "partner" for
a number of years & it seemed to work out ok.
Well, you seem to be a lot more open minded than some of my relatives
are, so I,m not sure if its a completely different type of L.D.S
over there & here or what? So maybe they need to catch up a bit
over here in Aus.
Anyway it all works out in the end, all the best on your journeys.
Mobius
a number of years & it seemed to work out ok.
Well, you seem to be a lot more open minded than some of my relatives
are, so I,m not sure if its a completely different type of L.D.S
over there & here or what? So maybe they need to catch up a bit
over here in Aus.
Anyway it all works out in the end, all the best on your journeys.
Mobius
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: SteppenWolf on March 17, 2002, 04:59:19
Post by: SteppenWolf on March 17, 2002, 04:59:19
Hell - I didn't know about this multiple gods thing - I must look that up! Thanks Daniel!
LDS are pretty darn cool for a Church (did you know that their people are the international experts in translating Islamic texts into English?) but one thing makes me a bit sad and it's that they are so down on reincarnation.
I guess every church has to be wrong about something (IMHO natürlich!) though there are of course dissenters...
http://www.greaterthings.com/JJDewey/Eternal_Lives/
Out of interest - I attended a lecture on Wicca (ie modern witchcraft) and was very happy to see them blow away a ton of myths like being dead against Christianity etc. Only the blind hate the other religions, the decent people see the commonality...
Cheers mate!
LDS are pretty darn cool for a Church (did you know that their people are the international experts in translating Islamic texts into English?) but one thing makes me a bit sad and it's that they are so down on reincarnation.
I guess every church has to be wrong about something (IMHO natürlich!) though there are of course dissenters...
http://www.greaterthings.com/JJDewey/Eternal_Lives/
Out of interest - I attended a lecture on Wicca (ie modern witchcraft) and was very happy to see them blow away a ton of myths like being dead against Christianity etc. Only the blind hate the other religions, the decent people see the commonality...
Cheers mate!
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Violet on March 17, 2002, 13:58:26
Post by: Violet on March 17, 2002, 13:58:26
Dear SteppenWolf,
Did you know your AKA is the same as a very popular Canadian band from the early to mid 70's? Steppen Wolf never made it that big outside of Canada.
Regards,
Violet
Did you know your AKA is the same as a very popular Canadian band from the early to mid 70's? Steppen Wolf never made it that big outside of Canada.
Regards,
Violet
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Mobius on March 17, 2002, 14:54:58
Post by: Mobius on March 17, 2002, 14:54:58
G,day all, hey Steppenwolf, yes, lend us your " magic carpet "
for a ride, we all feel we are "born to be wild".
On the multiple gods topic, it seems that many of our earliest
cultures had multiple gods.
The ancient Egyptians with the nine gods of Heliopolis, the greeks,
the early romans/byzantines,India who,s many gods apparently used
"Vimanas"/spacecraft to get around.Personally the idea of more than
one God sits better with me, as it bypasses the chicken & the egg
theory.
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
for a ride, we all feel we are "born to be wild".
On the multiple gods topic, it seems that many of our earliest
cultures had multiple gods.
The ancient Egyptians with the nine gods of Heliopolis, the greeks,
the early romans/byzantines,India who,s many gods apparently used
"Vimanas"/spacecraft to get around.Personally the idea of more than
one God sits better with me, as it bypasses the chicken & the egg
theory.
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Adrian on March 17, 2002, 15:14:39
Post by: Adrian on March 17, 2002, 15:14:39
Greetings Mobius!
I just asked in another thread whether Steppenwolf was "Born to be Wild"
BTW - I did read that link you posted, thanks very much - most interesting!
As for multiple Gods - it still doesn't get around the "who came first" situation at all if you think about it. And I have thought about it in depth for nearly 40 years
I firmly believe that there is only one true "God", and who is the great Creator and Master of the Universe. The powers and presence of God are so vast as to be incomprehendable to all but the greatest Adepts and Masters. This God is the Divine.
There could well be many other deities or "demi-gods" however - I believe Robert Bruce has met several of them himself on his Astral travels.
Pagan type organisations fundamentally believe in the "One", and their pantheons of gods are all aspects of the "One" as manifested in a mascular and feminine form. They are entitled to their opinions, and which I respect, but I do think that Paganism in its various forms follow a very great over-simplification of the Divine reality.
Kind regards to all,
Adrian.
I just asked in another thread whether Steppenwolf was "Born to be Wild"
BTW - I did read that link you posted, thanks very much - most interesting!
As for multiple Gods - it still doesn't get around the "who came first" situation at all if you think about it. And I have thought about it in depth for nearly 40 years
I firmly believe that there is only one true "God", and who is the great Creator and Master of the Universe. The powers and presence of God are so vast as to be incomprehendable to all but the greatest Adepts and Masters. This God is the Divine.
There could well be many other deities or "demi-gods" however - I believe Robert Bruce has met several of them himself on his Astral travels.
Pagan type organisations fundamentally believe in the "One", and their pantheons of gods are all aspects of the "One" as manifested in a mascular and feminine form. They are entitled to their opinions, and which I respect, but I do think that Paganism in its various forms follow a very great over-simplification of the Divine reality.
Kind regards to all,
Adrian.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 17, 2002, 21:44:42
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 17, 2002, 21:44:42
About the "who cam first question"...I believe there was no beginning nor will there be an end, but don't ask me to explain it, give me a few years!
Ps-I think it would be safe to say that Steppen Wolf made it pretty big outside of Canada. "Born to be Wild" and "Magic Carpet Ride" are staples of classic rock and are still used today in commercials and films in the US... (Ie. Sketchers Shoes used "Magic Carpet" in a recent commercial.)
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Ps-I think it would be safe to say that Steppen Wolf made it pretty big outside of Canada. "Born to be Wild" and "Magic Carpet Ride" are staples of classic rock and are still used today in commercials and films in the US... (Ie. Sketchers Shoes used "Magic Carpet" in a recent commercial.)
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Mobius on March 17, 2002, 22:54:21
Post by: Mobius on March 17, 2002, 22:54:21
G,day Adrian,
Sorry mate,( for the plagiarism )I havn,t got around to reading &
contributing on all forums as yet & theres only one thing worse
than plagiarism & thats when the reader isnt aware of the original.
On the positive side, looks like just the mention of the name
Steppenwolf brings back all sorts of great memories for a lot of us
in here, even though they retired a year after I was born 1972,
they left an imprint on me for life.
The multiple gods topic is big one on its own, not that I believe
in them more than Monotheistic concepts, it just sits a bit better
with me.Yes it still raises the question, who comes first & that they
all seem to have a central male & female, who have many lesser gods
in tow.But the single God theory runs into the same problem, who
made God? What was before God? Why only one? not very politically
correct are they, especially from a females perspective.Why not a
female God? Seems they have more experience in organic creation
than males do.In most bibles it says in GENESIS, "we" will make
man/human beings in "our" image or "like us" or to "resemble us",
who is "us"?
I,ve read about how they (scientists) did an experiment to create
life from nothing but an electric charge, where they had
completely sterile containers placed in a vacuum & fired charges
that simulated lightning into it, which created these little
crystal type creatures.They were single cell organisms that rapidly
multiplied an incredible feat!
So I come to this conclusion, in nature, when a "something" comes into existence it usually comes in 2 forms, single cell & multi-cell organisms, either making copies of itself or having a male & a female & a crossing over of information.
I am going to have to cut my post short as I,ve run out of time,
but I,d be interested in hearing your comments Adrian & everyone
else of course!
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
Sorry mate,( for the plagiarism )I havn,t got around to reading &
contributing on all forums as yet & theres only one thing worse
than plagiarism & thats when the reader isnt aware of the original.
On the positive side, looks like just the mention of the name
Steppenwolf brings back all sorts of great memories for a lot of us
in here, even though they retired a year after I was born 1972,
they left an imprint on me for life.
The multiple gods topic is big one on its own, not that I believe
in them more than Monotheistic concepts, it just sits a bit better
with me.Yes it still raises the question, who comes first & that they
all seem to have a central male & female, who have many lesser gods
in tow.But the single God theory runs into the same problem, who
made God? What was before God? Why only one? not very politically
correct are they, especially from a females perspective.Why not a
female God? Seems they have more experience in organic creation
than males do.In most bibles it says in GENESIS, "we" will make
man/human beings in "our" image or "like us" or to "resemble us",
who is "us"?
I,ve read about how they (scientists) did an experiment to create
life from nothing but an electric charge, where they had
completely sterile containers placed in a vacuum & fired charges
that simulated lightning into it, which created these little
crystal type creatures.They were single cell organisms that rapidly
multiplied an incredible feat!
So I come to this conclusion, in nature, when a "something" comes into existence it usually comes in 2 forms, single cell & multi-cell organisms, either making copies of itself or having a male & a female & a crossing over of information.
I am going to have to cut my post short as I,ve run out of time,
but I,d be interested in hearing your comments Adrian & everyone
else of course!
All the best on your journeys
Mobius
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Rob on March 23, 2002, 10:09:05
Post by: Rob on March 23, 2002, 10:09:05
Mobius!
When you have only one ultimate God you can get around the idea of "who created that God" by saying simply that time does not exist at the highest dimension where He/She/It seems to dwell. To try and assign a gender, yeah thats a human concept. Such a being would be so far from the normal human concept of consciousness we have really no chance of comprehending it. I think that saying He is just a usefulness, you can as well say She but the masculine side of humanity has been in dominance for most of the last 2000 years, so it would figure from this male perspective that God is great and over all others and therefore a He.
I have never heard of that scientific experiment, it sounds quite amazing though! Have you got any links to it? I would love to read more about it.
Oh yeah, the Genesis bits where it says "we" created. Did you also know that in the original hebrew there are many different names for God - but these are not used in the english translations. The we which genesis refers to are the Elohim, vast spirit being who are suppose to be the builders of God, creators, I think. God created the universe, and once you have a universe full of consciousness ready to do your bidding, all that's needed is the Word and they do the creating for "him"....
Lastly, the idea of multiple Gods, well I think at least a few of them are created by humanity. And God is so, so vast, it makes just as much sense to pray to the one God like Islam as it does to pray to a certain aspects of God represented symbolically like Hindus do. Whether these aspects enjoy a seperate identity to the one God, well maybe they do, but I think again these fleshy minds of ours start to fail at times like this. Duality, like an electron can be a particle and a wave, perhaps like Krishna can be seperate from God and still in mind and heart part of the One? Although we are all part of the one, only on the physical dimention, so maybe dieties are the same only on a higher level and so encompassing "more" of God? I dunno, just guessing
ps Do pagans have a female God as the highest? I know almost nothing here but am guessing they are much closer in touch with mother earth than the male dominated religions, like (old?) Catholicism.
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: Mobius on March 23, 2002, 20:47:38
Post by: Mobius on March 23, 2002, 20:47:38
G,day Inguma,I,m trying to track down that article on that
experiment, it is an incredible thing.
Yes I know about the Elohim but it just keeps going doesnt it?
Who created the builders of God?
And yes the Pagans do have many sects where the Goddess assumes
the primary role,she goes by many names Diana,Cerridwen,Artemis,Isis,
Hecate,Cybele,Selene,the Lady or Great Mother & some of the earlier
converts to Christianity called her Brigid or Mary.
But they still have the male aspect, its just that some hold the
female above the male.
All the very best on your journeys
Mobius
experiment, it is an incredible thing.
Yes I know about the Elohim but it just keeps going doesnt it?
Who created the builders of God?
And yes the Pagans do have many sects where the Goddess assumes
the primary role,she goes by many names Diana,Cerridwen,Artemis,Isis,
Hecate,Cybele,Selene,the Lady or Great Mother & some of the earlier
converts to Christianity called her Brigid or Mary.
But they still have the male aspect, its just that some hold the
female above the male.
All the very best on your journeys
Mobius
Title: The Lord is My Light --REVISITED
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 12, 2002, 22:11:11
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on March 12, 2002, 22:11:11
Ah! I just wrote an entire introduction to this post and then lost it because I tried to post without having entered a subject. So here is the BREIF intro:
I will admit that this post, or at least the majority of what I have written about, is a little off base..but I am the author of the post "The Lord is My Light" in which I shared my method of "self defense". I guess I should have been more descriptive of what I mean by calling on the Lord and His light.
The "power" and "protection" I rely on by calling on Jesus Christ comes from the way I try to live my life. In all things, I try to emulate the Lord- by loving, serving, sacrficing, and searching for my calling...and it's this "personal righteousness" I draw on on those occassions when I feel negative energy trying to hold me down and /or instill fear, the greatest obstacle, on my path...
The bottom line is that I call on the SOURCE when I am "attacked" and I am sure that there exists beings so powerful and dark that I woudln't know what to do, and then I would require protection that I cannot even comprehend as of now...but this hasn't been the case for me thus far, thank goodness.
Now some musings on...well, everything on my mind this evening:
I think it's so funny the way everyone still attacks Christians. I have found that the majority of members in this site are very tolerant, open minded people...truth seekers. Then we have those who are definitely riding high on their own egos and the fact that, because of their own personal knowledge, they feel in some way superior to those who are on different paths and different levels, they ridicule others paths or at least speak as if others are in some way inferior because of what they believe and what they feel works. I admit that I believe there is an objective truth (and this sometimes this is revealed in my words, much to the chagrin of others)...yet there are many ways to arrive at the truth. I also believe there is a way to KNOW and be 100% sure, in this life, that you have arrived at the truth. There is a specific manifestation- a revelation if you will- that anyone may receive. I do not feel that it is my right to share what this is, but I do know of those who have received it. The way to receive this manifestation is to prove to God, and yourself (which is pretty much the same thing, if you understand what I am talking about) that you, through the experiences you have had so far, as an eternal being, will ALWAYS choose the right way- choose the light. . .that you are dedicated to spreading love and desire to follow God and His way. No one of us, as mortals, is perfect or will be in this life, although I don't think this is impossible (I know I contradicted myself- so is it possible or impossible?- I would say it is possible, but not plausible)...but what I am basically saying is that we must become perfect. To receive this manifestation that I am speaking of, one does NOT need to be perfect . . . but one needs to decide, deep down, what he or she truly desires.
While I am sure that some things, or many things which I have said thus far, can (and will, hopefully) be debated. . .. I believe that we would probably all agree that a all of our experiences require us to make decisions. We make a specific choice and there is always a consequence. Do you disagree? Even when a consequence doesn't seem apparent, it is there...it ripples through the universe and affects the whole, of which we are a part of. There is opposition in all things...there will always be darkness for without it there wouldn't be light. In the "end"- I concede that there is no real end- but in the end , at least as I understand it at this point in my existence, that end that many call the "final judgment", will be more of a division. Who will judge, who will divide? I think we, as individuals, with a perfect knowledge—or at least with knowledge to perfect memory— will actually judge ourselves. We will have an advocate, which is nice to know. Then the division will be made, it won't be a division of black and white, good and evil...but I think there will be gray areas or in other words different levels/planes where beings will feel comfortable, or want to dwell in. There is even a "hell" (although I don't like to use that word---too much baggage, this place will be OUTER darkness, not just darkness. . .a place for those who have seen the light, accepted and comprehended the light, and then rejected it. It is very difficult to go there, almost impossible. The beings who go there are few, for few will accept the light and even fewer will then reject it. I know I cannot even begin to fully comprehend this, but I will attempt to construct a weak metaphor to illustrate this concept. To be like those who will live in outer darkness, one would have to go outside on a bright, sunny day in the summer time and look up directly at the sun, and with complete sincerity and a spirit of pure and utter rebellion say, "The sun is not shining."
So where are we going to be when we divide ourselves? I look around at those in the waking, physical world. We have divided ourselves by our desires and our beliefs. Some desire power, others to fulfill their carnal desires. . . There are those who believe there is no God, that we are not eternal spirits (they are in for a big surprise and a lot of "accelerated learning". There are those who believe that heaven is as attainable as their willingness to follow dogmas, or sacrifice their lives in the hope of finding a "heaven" in which they basically eat, drink, and be merry. Some are spiritualists who have discovered they are indeed eternal beings, but other than that they have not decided much of anything else. Some have discovered that this life is a microcosm of the life to come, with the family unit being a primary key to understanding the cosmological scheme of things—that learning to love and live with another person of the opposite sex and raising and teaching children—allowing them to gain knowledge and love others--is truly at the center of this experience.
I could go on forever. My point? Well, I guess I want to say that I know that every decision counts, including what we believe in...and the life to come isn't that much different than this...it's just that we, at least for a period of time, will shed the "lower physical" (our present, corruptible "physical" body—I keep putting physical in quotations because even our ethereal bodies are physical, just a different kind of matter) and then we will go where we want to be, where we belong—there will be many different levels/planes for us...we will be where we are comfortable. And then? What will you do forever? Strum a harp? Only YOU know the answer.
I will be grateful for responses to my ideas...I don't pretend to know anything, really, well..you know what I mean. I love to hear what everyone has to say. We are all seeking truth and are at some point...and from that point we understand things the way we do. Ok, I'll stop now (:
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.
I will admit that this post, or at least the majority of what I have written about, is a little off base..but I am the author of the post "The Lord is My Light" in which I shared my method of "self defense". I guess I should have been more descriptive of what I mean by calling on the Lord and His light.
The "power" and "protection" I rely on by calling on Jesus Christ comes from the way I try to live my life. In all things, I try to emulate the Lord- by loving, serving, sacrficing, and searching for my calling...and it's this "personal righteousness" I draw on on those occassions when I feel negative energy trying to hold me down and /or instill fear, the greatest obstacle, on my path...
The bottom line is that I call on the SOURCE when I am "attacked" and I am sure that there exists beings so powerful and dark that I woudln't know what to do, and then I would require protection that I cannot even comprehend as of now...but this hasn't been the case for me thus far, thank goodness.
Now some musings on...well, everything on my mind this evening:
I think it's so funny the way everyone still attacks Christians. I have found that the majority of members in this site are very tolerant, open minded people...truth seekers. Then we have those who are definitely riding high on their own egos and the fact that, because of their own personal knowledge, they feel in some way superior to those who are on different paths and different levels, they ridicule others paths or at least speak as if others are in some way inferior because of what they believe and what they feel works. I admit that I believe there is an objective truth (and this sometimes this is revealed in my words, much to the chagrin of others)...yet there are many ways to arrive at the truth. I also believe there is a way to KNOW and be 100% sure, in this life, that you have arrived at the truth. There is a specific manifestation- a revelation if you will- that anyone may receive. I do not feel that it is my right to share what this is, but I do know of those who have received it. The way to receive this manifestation is to prove to God, and yourself (which is pretty much the same thing, if you understand what I am talking about) that you, through the experiences you have had so far, as an eternal being, will ALWAYS choose the right way- choose the light. . .that you are dedicated to spreading love and desire to follow God and His way. No one of us, as mortals, is perfect or will be in this life, although I don't think this is impossible (I know I contradicted myself- so is it possible or impossible?- I would say it is possible, but not plausible)...but what I am basically saying is that we must become perfect. To receive this manifestation that I am speaking of, one does NOT need to be perfect . . . but one needs to decide, deep down, what he or she truly desires.
While I am sure that some things, or many things which I have said thus far, can (and will, hopefully) be debated. . .. I believe that we would probably all agree that a all of our experiences require us to make decisions. We make a specific choice and there is always a consequence. Do you disagree? Even when a consequence doesn't seem apparent, it is there...it ripples through the universe and affects the whole, of which we are a part of. There is opposition in all things...there will always be darkness for without it there wouldn't be light. In the "end"- I concede that there is no real end- but in the end , at least as I understand it at this point in my existence, that end that many call the "final judgment", will be more of a division. Who will judge, who will divide? I think we, as individuals, with a perfect knowledge—or at least with knowledge to perfect memory— will actually judge ourselves. We will have an advocate, which is nice to know. Then the division will be made, it won't be a division of black and white, good and evil...but I think there will be gray areas or in other words different levels/planes where beings will feel comfortable, or want to dwell in. There is even a "hell" (although I don't like to use that word---too much baggage, this place will be OUTER darkness, not just darkness. . .a place for those who have seen the light, accepted and comprehended the light, and then rejected it. It is very difficult to go there, almost impossible. The beings who go there are few, for few will accept the light and even fewer will then reject it. I know I cannot even begin to fully comprehend this, but I will attempt to construct a weak metaphor to illustrate this concept. To be like those who will live in outer darkness, one would have to go outside on a bright, sunny day in the summer time and look up directly at the sun, and with complete sincerity and a spirit of pure and utter rebellion say, "The sun is not shining."
So where are we going to be when we divide ourselves? I look around at those in the waking, physical world. We have divided ourselves by our desires and our beliefs. Some desire power, others to fulfill their carnal desires. . . There are those who believe there is no God, that we are not eternal spirits (they are in for a big surprise and a lot of "accelerated learning". There are those who believe that heaven is as attainable as their willingness to follow dogmas, or sacrifice their lives in the hope of finding a "heaven" in which they basically eat, drink, and be merry. Some are spiritualists who have discovered they are indeed eternal beings, but other than that they have not decided much of anything else. Some have discovered that this life is a microcosm of the life to come, with the family unit being a primary key to understanding the cosmological scheme of things—that learning to love and live with another person of the opposite sex and raising and teaching children—allowing them to gain knowledge and love others--is truly at the center of this experience.
I could go on forever. My point? Well, I guess I want to say that I know that every decision counts, including what we believe in...and the life to come isn't that much different than this...it's just that we, at least for a period of time, will shed the "lower physical" (our present, corruptible "physical" body—I keep putting physical in quotations because even our ethereal bodies are physical, just a different kind of matter) and then we will go where we want to be, where we belong—there will be many different levels/planes for us...we will be where we are comfortable. And then? What will you do forever? Strum a harp? Only YOU know the answer.
I will be grateful for responses to my ideas...I don't pretend to know anything, really, well..you know what I mean. I love to hear what everyone has to say. We are all seeking truth and are at some point...and from that point we understand things the way we do. Ok, I'll stop now (:
Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.
Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.